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 Suzuteo wrote:
Breachers were strong in a meta dominated by T3 infantry being cleared by S4 shooting. Now we are in a meta dominated by T4-5 W2-3 infantry being cleared by S5-6 AP-2 shooting. In other words, Breachers are average toughness now. With their mediocre shooting and fighting, it doesn't make sense to run so many of them because they cannot just sit in the midboard ontop of objectives like they used to.

basically, Breacher shooting is great against infantry...yet, they dont have that many shots. I would love to use them, i got 15 freaking kataphrons but its not their time anymore.

Hmmm ok, but you guys visit much more tourneys then i do =/

Think i have no other choice else to take the list i posted and make the best of it =)

 Hesselhof wrote:
Hmmm ok, but you guys visit much more tourneys then i do =/

Think i have no other choice else to take the list I posted and make the best of it =)

atm its somewhat speculation on my end since I didn't face SM at a tournament yet. But there were a lot of them at the North Wst GT in Bremen and a lot of IH lists placed very well last weekend all over the planet. At this point, our list building is: Do I have a chance with this vs IH/SM? if "no" then build a new list. If "yes" you can go through the other matchups. everyone and their mother plays SM so we need to prepare for them as well as we can. all of them, not only IH. Its just that SM limits us extremely. Stygies is almost worthless since they have rerolls everything and they put 3 warsuits in your face so you cant infiltrate. And IF will be the death to Dragoons.

Yep this is what i mean

duneriders i will buy in future, so as hoplites, otherwise i use my fulgurites, but atm my wife will kill me if i buy more, bought as said 3 boxes kataphrons last week XD.

I only can bring what i own^^

 Hesselhof wrote:
Yep this is what i mean

duneriders i will buy in future, so as hoplites, otherwise i use my fulgurites, but atm my wife will kill me if i buy more, bought as said 3 boxes kataphrons last week XD.

I only can bring what i own^^

Sure thing but atm we need to think without limitations^^

The rob palmer boat list wont do scratch against SM btw.

^^
which list you mean?

Its very interesting and exciting which list concept will do it for admech^^

 Hesselhof wrote:
^^
which list you mean?

Its very interesting and exciting which list concept will do it for admech^^

was a list with 10 5 man vanguard units with 2 plas each in boats.

and i could live wihtout the excitement^^

Ya this 4 plasma shots won´t work lol, even i can say this^^ (with my low experience)

I'm going to stick with the Kataphrons for the moment, my local tourney scene runs ETC rules and usually prohibits forgeworld so hopelites are out the window and its not super Meta chasey

I'm also not hardcore enough to be chasing the meta while the suppliments are still being released and before a IH faq so I'll im going to hold fire an wait for AdMech codex V2 or supplement. Its got to be soon after all the SM stuff surley.

Agamembar wrote:
I'm going to stick with the Kataphrons for the moment, my local tourney scene runs ETC rules and usually prohibits forgeworld so hopelites are out the window and its not super Meta chasey

I'm also not hardcore enough to be chasing the meta while the suppliments are still being released and before a IH faq so I'll im going to hold fire an wait for AdMech codex V2 or supplement. Its got to be soon after all the SM stuff surley.

Well dont get your hopes too high. rumors tell that we will got something with psychic awakening but that there will be no updated codex in the forseeable future.
its not really "hardcore" to chase the meta. Thing is, if you have a tournament within the next month you need to adapt or accept that you will get rofl-stomped by SM left and right.

Iago40k wrote:

Agamembar wrote:
I'm going to stick with the Kataphrons for the moment, my local tourney scene runs ETC rules and usually prohibits forgeworld so hopelites are out the window and its not super Meta chasey

I'm also not hardcore enough to be chasing the meta while the suppliments are still being released and before a IH faq so I'll im going to hold fire an wait for AdMech codex V2 or supplement. Its got to be soon after all the SM stuff surley.

Well dont get your hopes too high. rumors tell that we will got something with psychic awakening but that there will be no updated codex in the forseeable future.
its not really "hardcore" to chase the meta. Thing is, if you have a tournament within the next month you need to adapt or accept that you will get rofl-stomped by SM left and right.

And yet thats just what Aeldari are getting.

Incidentally, do we know if Alaitoc lost their -1 to hit craftworld thing? If they did there's a non-zero chance that they may be releasing the mini codex updates for all the armies that had this -1 faction ability to get them off the scene.

@ Agamembar
You could just substitute Hoplites with Electro Priests if you have those models

@ Octovol
The OG Craftworld traits are not touched by this book. You can just make your own Craftworld and choose from 1-2 traits.
So we still have to deal with Alaitoc flyer spam.

 lash92 wrote:
@ Agamembar
You could just substitute Hoplites with Electro Priests if you have those models

I do have 20 of them from back in the old Stygies infiltrate strat days, just need the boats I think for them or make the Lucius and deepstrike them in.

Just one question, because i do canticles like this, with mars always role two dice. if i play stygies i select.

Can i if i play mars, and turn one, i choose shroud psalm and turn 2 i roll two dice? never did this before but is this possible? To choose one turn and the other turn roll two dice for the same song?

 Hesselhof wrote:
Just one question, because i do canticles like this, with mars always role two dice. if i play stygies i select.

Can i if i play mars, and turn one, i choose shroud psalm and turn 2 i roll two dice? never did this before but is this possible? To choose one turn and the other turn roll two dice for the same song?

Yeah you can, each turn you can pick one you haven't used or roll and get one you have used already. Many a game I would choose for the first turn and then roll the rest of the game

Yeah i literally just learned thats how it works and massively improved my game.
T1 is almost always shroud for me, exception being if im in cover as it is anyway and the only thing i expect to get shot would be reduced to invul anyway (crawlers)

Dont forget you can also spend 2cp to pick it again later on if needed.

Ha nice lol

But if i choose one and play mars its only one song, right? Thats pretty cool =) so turn 2 with mars with 2 dice and cawl the chance to get psalm again is nice

How can i argue that this works like this, if somebody say: hey the rules say choose or roll not both?

Ahh and other scenario: if i roll turn 1 and want to choose turn 2 it cant be same song from tunr 1?

I mean technically the Mars forgeworld trait making you roll two dice overrides the book rule so i would be tempted to say you get to pick 2 when you choose as your rolling 2 dice for your choices when you decide to roll.

Maybe I'm reaching a bit with that one.

Yes, if you choose Shroudpsalm T1 you can't select that as a non-rolled cantical for the rest of the battle without using one of the canticle startegems, the rules in the codex make a point of saying that if you roll say the same canicle multiple times then you are free to use it however many time you roll it.

Mhh my fault, mars says, if i roll for canticles, use two dice, so if i choose, only one

Ok thx, very nice, never to old to learn =)

Agamembar wrote:
I mean technically the Mars forgeworld trait making you roll two dice overrides the book rule so i would be tempted to say you get to pick 2 when you choose as your rolling 2 dice for your choices when you decide to roll.

Maybe I'm reaching a bit with that one.

Yes, if you choose Shroudpsalm T1 you can't select that as a non-rolled cantical for the rest of the battle without using one of the canticle startegems, the rules in the codex make a point of saying that if you roll say the same canicle multiple times then you are free to use it however many time you roll it.

The mars dogma explicitely says "when rolling for canticles, roll 2 dice instead of one" so its either you pick one canticle or you roll for two.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Agamembar wrote:
I mean technically the Mars forgeworld trait making you roll two dice overrides the book rule so i would be tempted to say you get to pick 2 when you choose as your rolling 2 dice for your choices when you decide to roll.

Maybe I'm reaching a bit with that one.

Yes, if you choose Shroudpsalm T1 you can't select that as a non-rolled cantical for the rest of the battle without using one of the canticle startegems, the rules in the codex make a point of saying that if you roll say the same canicle multiple times then you are free to use it however many time you roll it.

The mars dogma explicitely says "when rolling for canticles, roll 2 dice instead of one" so its either you pick one canticle or you roll for two.

Ah never mind then, haha, forgot the wording of the rule.

Think kastelan mathhammer as our best weapon vs IH.

Reality is kastelan have always mathhammered our top damage and you dont see them because they are so easily tagged.

Nothing has changed in this regard. Not sure where to go.

In my opinion, if your Kastelan has not made its points back by the time it has been tagged, you have been playing poorly.

My concern is whether or not the hammer and anvil concept still works. If I bring Dragoons, Hoplites, or Priests, what sorts of lists will just vomit Scouts and Warsuits all over the board and shoot my Robots, knowing I cannot get my melee in their face by turn one?

Tagging is one issue. Being immobile to rack those points up is a different thing altogether. Im concerned they wont last.

I ran dragoons vs an RG list the other week and my fears were confirmed when sheer weight of dice with CM rerolls was enough to bypass the hit modifiers too easily.

I dont play ITC and im concerned our answers are just short of being good enough without worryimg about handing out secondaries.

Triple icarus triple belleros breacher line is a pretty good baseline for the flyer lists. The warsuits are annoying to say the least. I ran a bike captain detachment and swooping dive absolutely neutered it which was useful for protecting the gunline.

Any other ideas im all ears pure admech.

Why do they need to be mobile? Dakkabots are very good at static defense. They control a 42" bubble around them once rooted. This makes it easy to deliver fire support as needed for your objective grabbers and control movement on the board. Yes, there may be LOS issues, but if we have LOS issues, they do as well. In fact, I daresay we have a huge advantage, since Dreadnoughts and Centurions are slowwww, Repulsors can only move 5" before they give up their Grinding Advance, and Stormtalons, while they hit hard, can't really take hits. Meanwhile, we can turn our guns into Assault and run and gun; play ring-around-the-ruins and kill bikes, suits, and infantry (smart use of Robots is to avoid rooting them until you are sure of the payoff), secure objectives, etc.

It is annoying how everyone pretty much hits on 4s rerolling all against our Dragoons. I mean, that was supposed to be OUR thing.

Not sure if 3x Crawler is wise anymore. IH tanks have much more mass and toughness than other flying vehicles. Double Crawler at most, but I think 4x Dakkabots and 3x Grators is the way forward.

I would advise against Crawlers tbh. Sure the missle is not bad against Stormtalons, but the autocanons are pretty useless due to Ironstone, especially when taking things lime Stealthy trait into account.
Sure Grators are also bad against flyers but they are much more useful in general. E.g. bombarding hiding scouts which deny you shooting on character Dreads.
I would take 3 Grators over 3 Crawlers every day.

It's not crators vs. Crawlers. You ALWAYS take 3 grators. Yet the question is if crawlers are worth it. Maybe grators and bots are the way.
So, we talked about stygies being not worth it anymore. Yet I think dragoons became useless but stygies did not. Why? Because sm need to castle for all their rerolls (seal of oath is another buggy) . Which is not that hard when your main target runs at you. But if we play several swooshy units that make SM move, the - 1 helps again. Working on it.

But if you look at the tourney results, you will note that the castle lists did poorly. I think those can be played around. It's the competitive lists featuring character Mortis Dreads combined with Stormtalons, Assault Centurions, and TFCs that did the best. Basically, non-interactable artillery, a counter-charger, non-LOS artillery, and high mobility units. all with stacked Heavy weapon buffs and durability bonuses.

So I don't think we need to prep for 3x Repulsors as much as I had thought. Maybe 2x Repulsors at worst.

Plus, my next Major has the new ITC rule in effect. Repulsors won't be allowed to climb buildings, so it should be easier to hide from them on turn one.

 Suzuteo wrote:
But if you look at the tourney results, you will note that the castle lists did poorly. I think those can be played around. It's the competitive lists featuring character Mortis Dreads combined with Stormtalons, Assault Centurions, and TFCs that did the best. Basically, non-interactable artillery, a counter-charger, non-LOS artillery, and high mobility units. all with stacked Heavy weapon buffs and durability bonuses.

So I don't think we need to prep for 3x Repulsors as much as I had thought. Maybe 2x Repulsors at worst.

Plus, my next Major has the new ITC rule in effect. Repulsors won't be allowed to climb buildings, so it should be easier to hide from them on turn one.

which supports my case. Stygies will still be viable since not all units will hold auras and we can hide. yet, dragoons can not. Kicking those out of my lists as well as the onagers and kataphrons...shelf fills up rather quick atm.

Octovol wrote:
Incidentally, do we know if Alaitoc lost their -1 to hit craftworld thing? If they did there's a non-zero chance that they may be releasing the mini codex updates for all the armies that had this -1 faction ability to get them off the scene.

Maybe. Or raven guard just stays raven guard and -1 to hit isn't universally touched. That's the thing with these bespoken rules. Everything can have different rules even with same name for rule! When ork codex came out people thought for sure that plasma overcharge becomes standardised ala ork codex. Nope. Didn't happen either.