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@Suzuteo

Don't give up on Infiltrators yet. They have another profile which gives them an 18 inch Pistol 3 (4 0 1). You get 1 extra Strength and still 30 odd shots for Wrath of Mars. Also the Power sword will be hitting on S4 (5 with canticle) -3. Although less WoM, the profile is more dangerous to PEQ.

So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.

Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
@Suzuteo

Don't give up on Infiltrators yet. They have another profile which gives them an 18 inch Pistol 3 (4 0 1). You get 1 extra Strength and still 30 odd shots for Wrath of Mars. Also the Power sword will be hitting on S4 (5 with canticle) -3. Although less WoM, the profile is more dangerous to PEQ.

The problem is that we have no reliable way to get those into CC after deepstriking. The point with the Pistol 5 loadout is to maximize their MW output, as we can´t rely on them making it into CC and they get killed by a stiff breeze in the opponents next turn.

Can someone wake me up when marines are gak again /yawn

I am just not a fan of this new wave. A mixture of over saturation on something I have no interest in and it’s implications for imbalance.

toasterdex 2.0 or we riot

Infiltrator Mow bomb is a unit that doesn't kill something alone but reliably helps. Usually it takes me 2 or half of t3 to kill all tau drones. Incoming infis kill off the rest of up until then hurten riptide and causing trouble in the zone of the opponent. They have done that several times now. Against t8 as well. If they get a charge in afterwards great. But they have done their job by mortal wounding and standing somewhere the opponent don't want them.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.

Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!

I highly suggest not really bothering converting the other specials.

If you're primarily building Vanguard, you'll want to be using the Plasma Calivers and maybe some Arc Rifles(I've had good luck with them, but they're not as great as they were previously)...and getting multiple boxes doesn't actually hurt just for the spare bits.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i have a strong suspicion that'll get faq'd to be salamanders only.
Otherwise it also works for protecting knights and that could lead to issues.

Isn't it INFANTRY only? Whole point of the strat is protecting allied infantry - can't see that changing, but making it non character makes sense (or making the defending unit a bodyguard style thing).

 Gareth_Evans wrote:
@Suzuteo
Don't give up on Infiltrators yet. They have another profile which gives them an 18 inch Pistol 3 (4 0 1). You get 1 extra Strength and still 30 odd shots for Wrath of Mars. Also the Power sword will be hitting on S4 (5 with canticle) -3. Although less WoM, the profile is more dangerous to PEQ.

I don't have magnetized Infiltrators. But at their price point, I don't think the Stubs and Power Swords are worth it anyway. I think I will be hoofing it in vehicles, Fists be damned.

Iago40k wrote:
Infiltrator Mow bomb is a unit that doesn't kill something alone but reliably helps. Usually it takes me 2 or half of t3 to kill all tau drones. Incoming infis kill off the rest of up until then hurten riptide and causing trouble in the zone of the opponent. They have done that several times now. Against t8 as well. If they get a charge in afterwards great. But they have done their job by mortal wounding and standing somewhere the opponent don't want them.

Yeah. Infiltrators are still good against other matchups. Sigh. But they are so bad against Space Marines now. Really, I wonder if it's too far-fetched to put them into a transport...

Rogerio134134 wrote:
So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.

Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!

Vanguard with Calivers and Rangers with Snipers are best. Sometimes, if you have spare points and models, Rangers with Arc Rifles work too, but generally, it's only the two aforementioned weapons.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Yeah. Infiltrators are still good against other matchups. Sigh. But they are so bad against Space Marines now. Really, I wonder if it's too far-fetched to put them into a transport...

Why do you think Infis are bad against SM? I mean yes, they are weak if they dont get into combat. But as stated, they have a mission, which is delivering mortal wounds. the rest is a bonus. if they cant help you as a drop unit you can always deploy them the usual way or put them in a boat. but i would just sit them on an objective then. Still 20 wounds to chew through.

Iago40k wrote:
Why do you think Infis are bad against SM? I mean yes, they are weak if they dont get into combat. But as stated, they have a mission, which is delivering mortal wounds. the rest is a bonus. if they cant help you as a drop unit you can always deploy them the usual way or put them in a boat. but i would just sit them on an objective then. Still 20 wounds to chew through.

Because they obliterate them with with Bolt Rifles (or Heavy Bolters) and Auspex Scan? I honestly underestimated how deadly Bolters are in general with Space Marines. Really chewed through Corpuscarii on average dice. Infiltrators are even less durable.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Iago40k wrote:
Why do you think Infis are bad against SM? I mean yes, they are weak if they dont get into combat. But as stated, they have a mission, which is delivering mortal wounds. the rest is a bonus. if they cant help you as a drop unit you can always deploy them the usual way or put them in a boat. but i would just sit them on an objective then. Still 20 wounds to chew through.

Because they obliterate them with with Bolt Rifles (or Heavy Bolters) and Auspex Scan? I honestly underestimated how deadly Bolters are in general with Space Marines. Really chewed through Corpuscarii on average dice. Infiltrators are even less durable.

Well that depends if he is in tactical doctrine when you drop or not. Sure Auspex Scan can happen, but most armies have a stratagem for intercepting so we are aware of that either way and they hit with -1 and have to be in 12 so basically you can choose who is able to auspex scan.
And as I said: of course they will get killed after they drop in. They are made to deliver roughly 8 Mortal Wounds if its desperatelly needed. Thats it.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
So today I picked up a squad of skitarii in the local GW as have been looking at a second army alongside my crimson fists. I made the whole box as vanguard and gave them the plasma caliver and plan on covering the other special weapon that comes in the box into another plasma caliver.

Local club is looking at doing a slow grow League so I might take admech. As a rule of thumb which skitarii are usually better? I only built the vanguard as I thought they looked brilliant with their galvanic rifles and cool helmets!

Just a heads up - Vanguard cannot equip Galvanic Rifles. That’s a Ranger weapon. Vanguard use Radium Carbines by default and 2-3 can use special weapons (plasma calivers, arc rifles, or transonic arquebuses - the latter is terrible on them and the middle is merely ok, the plasma synergises best).

As for converting, I might save your arc for when you build rangers later (and use the plasmas from those later boxes and convert plasma upgrade packs sold on GW’s website for any extras you need).

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i have a strong suspicion that'll get faq'd to be salamanders only.
Otherwise it also works for protecting knights and that could lead to issues.

Since when knights are infantry? It works for infantry. Not vehicles. Not monsters.

But yeah hold up on purchases until FAQ. Now if you already have them go ahead and play around. Until FAQ comes totally legal.

My few cents into Infiltrators, especially after yesterday event - no more.

With the meta, at least in my local area, spamming a freaking lot of models (one of the opponents had 160 Catachan, the other 60 or 90), there's simply no point in fishing for DS pocket. The ony match they've been of any use DSing was vs Admech/3Knights, when Sicarians could drop on 2 Enginseers holding objective marker (both Mealstorm and Eternal). They've died however when one Crusader pointed an Avenger at them, so can't say they brung a lot of milestone. In other matches I had to utilise them as anti-charge units, dropping in my own deployment, to combat a sea of low cost infantry models. It's a pitty, as their melee weapon is quite decent actually - they just have very little chance to use it coming from DS.

I think I will switch them to either Corpuscarii to stregthen my Breachers castle with anti-charge options, or Dragoons for the same reason (and a bit of mid table harass).

Iago40k wrote:
Well that depends if he is in tactical doctrine when you drop or not. Sure Auspex Scan can happen, but most armies have a stratagem for intercepting so we are aware of that either way and they hit with -1 and have to be in 12 so basically you can choose who is able to auspex scan.
And as I said: of course they will get killed after they drop in. They are made to deliver roughly 8 Mortal Wounds if its desperatelly needed. Thats it.

He does not need to be in Tactical Doctrine. They really put out a lot of dice. Be wary.

Well, if I don't land within 12", I don't get to shoot. So that really defeats the purpose, unless I am occupying a cleared objective or something.

Not most armies. Isn't it only Space Marines (Auspex Scan), Chaos (Prescience), and us (Infoslave Skull) that have this sort of thing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So let's do a ranking of our melee options at this point.

Hoplites - Cheap, kill vehicles, tar pit melee threats well
Vanguard - Cheap, synergize with other melee infantry
Fulgurites - Pricey, but prevent SM players from being able to deploy aggressively with Scouts
Eversor - Costs 2 CP, lacks mass, but really good at removing infantry characters and hordes
Dragoons - Force hits on 5+, wound on 5+, decent saves
Infiltrator - Pricey, but native DS, can put 8-9 mortals on targets consistently; vulnerable to Auspex Scan, no more durable than Vanguard
Corpuscarii - High-volume S5 shooting, but no native DS, killed easily
Rustalkers - No.

If we're counting Assassins in then:

Eversor - dsing at 9", but charging on three dice. Sick melee potential
Callidus - short DS and decemt character hunting melee. And the utility is very handy
Fulgurites - for obvious reasons, strong assault choice punishing forward deployments
Breachers - mostly, because I have them in the list anyway, so their combat capability is an added value. Besides 3 attacks benefiting from both combat canticles, reliably cheap, 5++... They can actually stop BAs as my yesterday events proved me
Corpuscarii - loosing to Fulgus in pure melee output, winning on short range shooting. But they have a niche countering other assault lists due to enourmous weight of dice with S5
Skitarii - do nothing but screening and dying (at least in combat), but cheap enough to block enemy combat units
Dragoons - not as strong as once been, still a moderately resilient and definitely strong mid field harassment. Will loose horribly to the new warsuits though, and IFs... And marines overall
Fistelans - 6" DS strike is cool, but overall a poor option. Not nearly enough attacks for the 4+ hitting, no rerolls, limited tanking ability... and hefty price per model
Infiltrators - decent melee weapon on a very subpar platform, unable to be delivered consistently
Anything else
More of anything else
Ruststalkers

I don't have experience with Hoplites, so I can't rate them.

yeah, from my experience i would never rank infis that low, especially not if we have priests that need a ride or else they are only useful as counter charge unit. which infis do great. need to clear ork or Astra or Nid horde? well do it then.
@dada sorry but deepstriking a unit when your opponent has 160 footmen and claming the unit failed...well okay then.

@suzu why are fulgurites so far up in your ranking? prevent player from aggressively deploying? dont all of your melee units threaten to kill offensive deployed units?

I am not doing a ranking on my own, lets just say i keep taking hoplits and mars infis for the foreseeable future, because they do what they are supposed to do

I finally ordered a drill and the hoplite upgrade kit

Iago40k wrote:

@dada sorry but deepstriking a unit when your opponent has 160 footmen and claming the unit failed...well okay then.

Well... yes I do claim Infiltrator to be rather a weirdly designed unit. Clearing chaff is exactly what Infils should be good at. And while they can do it, there are two tiny problems IMO.
First of all - with how charges work, they can't reliably charge in from DS. Meaning their usefulness is limited to 5xunit_size 12" laspistol shots. The taser goad, while not bad as a weapon with S6 and tesla on 5+, is not worth the points about 60% of times. Failed charge means Sicarian models (or, depending where they landed, entire unit) being dead next turn to the equivalent of lasgun shooting.
Secondly... those pistols are 12" from 9" DS, meaning there's a high chance only a part of them will be in range. They can't stand counter fire - which is understandable for a relatively cheap T3 model; but it means they can't even land in a "safe" spot - as Ironstorm, anything getting LoS on them, or a typical HWTs simply shreds Sicarians to pieces. What is worse though, with the size of their bases, it is quite easy to screen all useful pockets so there're less and less places they can actually fall in the first place. Especially with loads of footsman Sicarians are supposed to harass.

So in the end - they can't reliably DS on objective, because it's very easy to screen it out. They can't efficiently harass T4+ targets (without WoM at least), because their best loadout is a laspistol. Their melee capabilities don't to come into play with every failed charge. And their best role currently is to be a WoM fire-and-forget nuke, for 2CPs and 180 pts, or a counter-charge in my own castle... so the role that any better melee, Admech has, can fill.

Maybe they are decent in the world of GW, where people don't play using conga lines, or bring mixed armies without spamming. Maybe they could've been decent if taken in 5 models squads (haven't tried that out TBH), or if Manipulus started with the +1" charge aura. I realy tried to like them - but they simply fail me in the vast majority of tries.



EDIT: Actually, why do you guys think Infiltrators are worth taking? How do you play them? I'll be very happy to be proved wrong, as that's another unit I would be able to utilise.

Iago40k wrote:
yeah, from my experience i would never rank infis that low, especially not if we have priests that need a ride or else they are only useful as counter charge unit. which infis do great. need to clear ork or Astra or Nid horde? well do it then.
@dada sorry but deepstriking a unit when your opponent has 160 footmen and claming the unit failed...well okay then.

@suzu why are fulgurites so far up in your ranking? prevent player from aggressively deploying? dont all of your melee units threaten to kill offensive deployed units?

I am not doing a ranking on my own, lets just say i keep taking hoplits and mars infis for the foreseeable future, because they do what they are supposed to do

I used to rank Infiltrators higher when we faced more Gatekeeper lists. These Space Marine lists are infantry based and well-rounded.

Fulgurites especially punish Space Marines for using their Scouts and Warsuits. And once you get them onto an objective behind a Drill, they are hellishly hard to remove. Acquisition means they are minus 1 to hit, 2++/5+++.

Rankings are useful exercises. It tells people what we're prioritizing. I am thinking Boats and Drills full of infantry backed by some artillery now.

 Suzuteo wrote:
I am thinking Boats and Drills full of infantry backed by some artillery now.

that was the plan all along wasnt it?^^
still not sold on priests though. played them at the RTT were i became 2nd and they have been the one part that did not click.
though its good that there are several awys to go I reckon.

Id like to see some more rankings regarding topics like: troops, heavy HQ for example.

My take on Hqs:
Daedalosus, we seriously need a nickname for this guy, Daeda is enough I guess)
Enginseers
Manipulus
Cawl
Dominus

Heavy:
Disintegrator
Robots ( lower without cawl or Daeda + Destroyers + Dominus /mars/3+ robots)
Crawlers ( 1 higher for anti air)

Troops:
Rangers ( cheap and stygies nipers really useful for backfield and threatening squishy characters)
Vanguards (holding obj. , holding flanks and helping in melee, close with breachers but higher with their versatility like putting plasma in drill, survivability less dependent on matchup)
Breachers (midfield speedbump, holding obj.)
Destroyers ( die too fast and everyone knows they are scary, so really risky and board reliant)

Transport:
Skorpius ( really cheap wounds and blocker so we might not need as much melee)
Drill ( lower now that we have less deepstrike possibilities,so dont take too many)

ive been calling Daedalosus Dr. D

 0XFallen wrote:
Id like to see some more rankings regarding topics like: troops, heavy HQ for example.

My take on Hqs:
Daedalosus, we seriously need a nickname for this guy, Daeda is enough I guess)
Enginseers
Manipulus
Cawl
Dominus

Heavy:
Disintegrator
Robots ( lower without cawl or Daeda + Destroyers + Dominus /mars/3+ robots)
Crawlers ( 1 higher for anti air)

Troops:
Rangers ( cheap and stygies nipers really useful for backfield and threatening squishy characters)
Vanguards (holding obj. , holding flanks and helping in melee, close with breachers but higher with their versatility like putting plasma in drill, survivability less dependent on matchup)
Breachers (midfield speedbump, holding obj.)
Destroyers ( die too fast and everyone knows they are scary, so really risky and board reliant)

Transport:
Skorpius ( really cheap wounds and blocker so we might not need as much melee)
Drill ( lower now that we have less deepstrike possibilities,so dont take too many)

perfect example why slot rankings are not viable.
Units are not taken in a vacuum, whether its your own list idea or you are tailoring against something. For example, if not playing Mars, you need to take the apparently worst hq choice. In a Mars army, dakkastelans are more important than grators, since they are taken for MoW and need to deliver. Also, if I have 111 points to spend. What do I take? 1 grator? 1 dakkastelan? 1 dunecrawler? Surely the crawler is the best choice in this case, isnt it?

Plus: what are these rankinks supposed to imply? If a more expensive choice is better I should make room for it?
Sorry but this is pretty misleading to newcomers. And won't help experienced players a lot.

We all rank things. When you boil the process of list-building down, we're all basically pursuing a material strategy of maximizing our value per point.

That being said, you have to do it right. For example, ranking things by slot is not a good idea, since the slot may be a part of their ranking--unless you really are just trying to fill the slot. In general, you want to rank units by comparable qualities with their specific synergies and unique characteristics in mind.

But really, what are the best melee options at this point against the SM Meta?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ive been calling Daedalosus Dr. D

Do you find him useful despite not being able to stick him in a transport and fire him up the board?

Is it possible to say, which unit belongs in this or that transporter? Hoplites in Dunerider or Drill?

All his 24" limiter means is you need to move up a bit.
Against a gunline army, moving doesnt really hurt you.
Against a nongunline army the range isnt even a problem.

His only real issue is he cant really be used against the "ace target" for the enemy, which generally has 48" range or longer sitting in the corner. But given he costs 50pts he has to have some kind of drawback.
I dont see the point in putting him in a transport unless you want him to follow dakkapriests for some reason. Nothing worth having him around wants to be in a transport or moves that quick either. Quicker than him sure but not enough to be a problem.

I dont see the point in putting him in a transport

You cant transport him, he has no forgeworld keyword =/

Not the point.
Point was "is he any good even though you cant put him in the transport"

I was merely stating i dont see why you would WANT to put him in a transport in the first place.