VladimirHerzog wrote: im scared to actually get more boats before the next CA, i feel like it might get a pts hike because only marines can have good things these days.
If it does it won't be much. It's already a few points more than a rhino with 1 less toughness and 1 more wound. The weapon loadouts are comparable but rhinos also get to pop smoke. They're otherwise identical vehicles.
and the grator variant is massively more vulnerable than a crawler for roughly the same cost. It trades that 5++ with reroll 1s to get more guns and speed.
Hardly worth raising the price for.
I am on the same page as Octovol and vineheart on this.
what you guys think of the list i proposed? C&C more than welcome on this since I need to lock my list
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
Arquebuses are a bit meh. Space Marines chew up unprotected Skitarii with their snipers. Any chance you have a Drill or a fourth Boat?
True but there are other match ups as well, right? ;-) thought of it as well but I guess I cannot protect them all. Plus another boat means less of something else.
I’m with Suzuteo on Arquebuses. They’ve never been even close to worth their points for me, and they hurt you by immobilizing your chaff obsec troops more than they hurt the opponent by making them hug LoS blockers, in my experience. If you want sniping then take naked skitarii for obsec and strat in a Vindicare, who is actually a mobile threat and annoying to remove.
@Suzuteo - You say not to worry about screening robots because as long as they get their 1-3 turns of shooting it’s fine for them to get tied up, but it’s turn 1/2 I’m worried about for melee threat. Strong first turn charges and screen clearance followed up by deepstrikers or mobile hordes are all over the place this edition. There’s so many tools for tapping early. So I’m always wary of running robots without significant screening. Bloodletter bombs are highly screenable as you say, but a daemon prince with wings can be warptimed into the robots first turn and can’t be screened by 9” deepstrike denial or blocking, due to it being a FLY move not a redeploy - that’s why I brought that example up.
As for me, my next event is the major in Hong Kong. Their rules cutoff is this weekend, so Salamanders’s Self Sacrifice won’t be FAQ’d. As such half the China scene is urging me to take a Sallies Terminator Cap+Lib with naked scouts, for some Ryzaphron shielding to the tune of Character keyword T6/7 -1 to be hit -1 to be wounded 2+/3++/6+++ with regens of 1W per turn. Then run a Stygies parking lot and 30 or so Skitarii for board control and screens. I’m considering it, since it may be AdMech’s one chance at a dumb broken meme list, and I’m not a huge fan of my other option, a cawlstar. I’m going to see how it goes in a cawlstar practice game tomorrow before making any choices, but the list-building theoryhammer has been fun.
@Pomguo
Yeah. I actually usually end up making them run and cap anyway. Lol.
Really? I find T1 alpha exceedingly rare. But I guess when you do run into them, you can make use of the fact that you know that their game plan is to tap those Robots..
For example, at BAO, I was playing Chaos. I formed my Breachers as a big block in front of my Robots, my Knight and vehicles on the flanks. The Chaos player went first and poured everything into the Breachers. Then he attempted Warptime. I abhored it with Graia without even rerolling. He lost right there because he blew his alpha on my Breachers, and I wiped 50% of his army off the board the next turn.
And last week, I played my friend's Raven Guard successors. Hid all my infantry in my Boats and used them as a wall. He killed the Boats in melee, but got stuck cuz he could not attack the disembarked infantry. Again, wiped 50% of his army out the next turn.
Self Sacrifice is disgusting. I actually have no idea how to counter it in its current iteration aside from disembarked troops right in their face or melee.
I always recommend playing what you are most familiar with at a tourney though. I am just very comfortable playing with Dakkabots. (I will even admit that they are a crutch for me. They are so strong, and I am used to playing around them, but at the same time, I know that they put me at a disadvantage against more mobile lists.)
I guess maybe my scene is just very melee-ish haha. The disembark screen trick is clever, thanks for the advice!
As for what I’m most used to running... would probably be Graia robots, but I don’t have any faith in such a list doing very well in a tourney environment. I will see how much I remember of Mars in tomorrow’s game and if it flops then maybe just back to a Stygies melee/ranged hybrid list like I ran at the Shanghai Open.
Eh, my last match each squad of 2 arquebus took out 1 death guard sorc each. I generally find them to be very useful sitting on backfield objectives at -1 to hit. But I also generally dont come up against other snipers.
A single squad of 2 arquebus is about the same points as a vindicare and the only benefit is that the vindicare can move and fire and the squad gets an extra sniper shot plus just as many wounds and 3 extra lots of galvanic rifle shots.
I guess it depends on what you're up against but as I hate the psychic phases getting rid of those guys or making go out of LoS of their targets is most useful.
Octovol wrote: Eh, my last match each squad of 2 arquebus took out 1 death guard sorc each. I generally find them to be very useful sitting on backfield objectives at -1 to hit. But I also generally dont come up against other snipers.
A single squad of 2 arquebus is about the same points as a vindicare and the only benefit is that the vindicare can move and fire and the squad gets an extra sniper shot plus just as many wounds and 3 extra lots of galvanic rifle shots.
I guess it depends on what you're up against but as I hate the psychic phases getting rid of those guys or making go out of LoS of their targets is most useful.
the vindicaire outdamages 2 arquebus because of the double shooting and the Headshot rule. When we say that marines deal with skitarii easily, were not talking about chaos, were talking about loyalists that all pack at least one ap-2 thunderfire cannon to pop our sniper nests from across the map.
Actually I am a big fan of the Arquebusses. But the guys are right, they just die to thunderfire cannons way to easily, even if Stygies. if it would be possible to fire them after moving Id consider them to get their own ride but that is not going to happen. They are great in other match ups though. Daemons and especially Orks.
4 Breachers are a decent screen in any match up though, since I want my boats and their cargo up field.
Skitarii don't live long enough to pay off over multiple rounds anymore. They will die to TFC, Infiltrators, Scout snipers, really, any bolter in LOS. IMO, you have to protect the Skitarii early on and hit them really hard in order to keep them alive in the later rounds.
Yeah i ended up dropping my 6 arquebus. I did actually get some decent distance with them but I got too frustrated with immobile skitarii units and have taken them back down to barebones and have gone back (again) to taking an assassin.
I am quite happy with my list now too which is the first time in ages. I wanted better board control then I wanted mobility then I wanted stronger screening and then I wanted reliability and ive slowly taken away the swingier elements of RNG and replaced them with consistent units.
I have come to the conclusion that I don't really rate any of our AT. I was getting better mileage from s5/6+ shooting in larger numbers than losing out to las cannons being invuln'd.
@IronVaught
No transports? I learned my lesson really quick when I ran out of Skitarii by the bottom of round one against Ultramarines snipers and TFCs in a practice match.
Suzuteo wrote: @IronVaught
No transports? I learned my lesson really quick when I ran out of Skitarii by the bottom of round one against Ultramarines snipers and TFCs in a practice match.
Yeah... Learned that the hard way too.
List is final. The match up vs Tau is worse than in my previous lists, yet I had a practice game yesterday and it still worked out great.
Spoiler:
Mars bat
Cael
Tpm rail and WL Vanguard
Vanguard
Vanguard
10 infis
Grator
Grator
Grator
Ok. My Cawl test game got cancelled but I’m gravitating towards Stygies, meta be damned. I know and like the list better. Took out a few special weapons and a spare enginseer, threw in a couple of Ironstriders, and bam, a Brigade to net me a couple more CP. And swapped the largely useless Neutron Onager for a second mortar Skorpius, and the Corpuscarii for Hoplites. Liking the list a lot better now.
Thoughts? I am currently using Master of Biosplicing as the WLT and Autocadeus to help guarantee a fullheal+revive+fullheal on the Kataphrons, but I may spend the CP for field commander to put it on an Enginseer and Necromechanic as the WLT to 100% guarantee that (and then for the relic probably Omniscient Mask on the Manipulus to help the Dragoons or just a Phosphoenix for the Dominus).
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
I like the list too. But you think Manipulus is worth it? Maybe trade him for another two Breachers?
Game winner against tau cause grators. Also a nice sniper magnet. Had the same thoughts as you. Though. More breacher would give up gang busters and they are not needed really. That's my reasoning anyway :-)
Suzuteo wrote: @IronVaught
No transports? I learned my lesson really quick when I ran out of Skitarii by the bottom of round one against Ultramarines snipers and TFCs in a practice match.
Yeah... Learned that the hard way too.
List is final. The match up vs Tau is worse than in my previous lists, yet I had a practice game yesterday and it still worked out great.
Spoiler:
Mars bat
Cael
Tpm rail and WL Vanguard
Vanguard
Vanguard
10 infis
Grator
Grator
Grator
A treacherous 06art of me wants to say taking 1 or 2 in a blob of 5 or 6 is nice for bailing out once a unit gets into cc with you.
the problem is that if you root your squad to double shoot, the enemy can possibly maneuver their assaulting unit so your punchy dudes cant fight, since you won`t be able to move.
I've played punchy bots a few times, and deepstriking a squad of 4, teleporting a datasmith to give them the +3" to charge lets them wreck gak in turn 2-3. The problem is that they are quite costly, thats a lot of points that aren`t doing anything turn 1, and a smart opponent can easily screen agaisnt them to make them destroy a unit of guards and then do nothing more,.
Hesselhof wrote: Can you probably explain how the list works? For my learning progress ^^ would be cool
Basically, the plan is to infiltrate all of the Duneriders, which contain the Vanguard and Hoplites, toward objectives. The overarching goal of the list is to control objectives while wearing down your opponent's ability to contest them. This means using the Boats to charge enemy vehicles, rendering both of them unable to shoot; your Hoplites handle melee threats and your Vanguard shoot vehicles and infantry; meanwhile, your Breachers, Crawlers, and Grators are also deleting flyers, bikers, infantry, and other artillery. Drop the Infiltrators behind your opponent to capture, onto a flank to reinforce it, or just to throw 8-9 mortals onto something. You win on inertia; even if the opponent is out-killing you in the start, they will eventually simply have no way to out-score you. This sort of list is common in ITC because more skilled players want games to go six rounds and to score as many points as possible.
Imagine an Iron Hands army with 3 Repulsors. You would just focus on killing all of his Stormtalons, Scouts, Intercessors, and Centurions. On his turn, he will start deleting your transports and tanks, maybe use Bolters to thin down disembarked Skitarii. By the bottom of round four, it's likely most of your tanks and transports are dead, as well as some of your Skitarii, but so is everything in his list but the Repulsors. Despite the fact that he killed 1600 of your points and you only killed 1100 of his, you will win for no reason other than the fact that those Neutron Lasers knock-offs cannot kill more than a handful of Skitarii per turn. Every turn, you are scoring 2-4 points. He is maybe scoring 2-3. And then there are secondaries. This list is hard to pick secondaries against. It will likely be Marked For Death and Big Game Hunter, but this just doubles down on the fact that he cannot really address the Skitarii that are scoring the points. On your side, the easiest things to pick are Recon, Engineers if they have no LOS ignoring units, Marked For Death (picking his scoring units), Ground Control against lists where you expect to get your butt kicked, and maybe Old School as a backup. There are also some army-specific secondaries you take, like Gangbusters against Drukhari and AdMech; Reaper against Guard, Nids, Orks; maybe Big Game Hunters against IH and Eldar flyers.
Leaning to Iagos list (because i freaking like it^^) and the models i own i made this list i want to to test for my next ITC tourney in december:
Mars Bat
Cawl
Manipulus
3x5 Ranger
10 Infils
2 Icarus Onager
1 Neutronager ( only got 2 Icarus Arrays, fail building in early days)
Mars Spearhead
TPE
3 Belleros Grators
Stygies Bat
Deadalosus
TPE
2x 5 Vanguards with 2 Plasma each
1x 5 Naked Vanguards
4 Breacher
2 Dunerider
1 Terrax Drill
Plasma Vanguards in the Drill or the Hoplites, depends on enemy, the naked 5 vanguards got theyr own dunerider
Do you guys think this is just a almost fail copy and paste or playable? The fact that this list building is much more my playstyle then just castle around made me to do this =P
@Hesselhof
I think you need more Calivers or Hoplites to make the list work. Just vanilla Skitarii are not great for fighting things like Invictors. That or you concentrate the Plasma into a DS package to go with the Infiltrators. I used to do that, and it worked really well.
Maybe something like this?
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1044
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord
Heavy Support - 674 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
I personally have found that I don't need nearly as much CP as I had thought with these vehicle spam lists. You pretty much spend a bunch of CP at the start to infiltrate, and after that, it's just Doctrina, Plasma Specialists, and a single Wrath of Mars. (Infiltrators don't tend to live very long after opponents find out how many mortals they can spit out; as usual, watch out for Auspex Scan in this meta.)
If you really want two Battalions, you could make a mixed Battalion instead of the Patrol.
Theres some admech/gargoyle-esque concept image from Forgeworld floating around apparently. It wouldnt exactly be that unusual to see Ruststalkers or Infiltrators be given mechanical wings anyway.
Be kinda weird to have a flying HQ and no flying units.
@Hesselhof
I think you need more Calivers or Hoplites to make the list work. Just vanilla Skitarii are not great for fighting things like Invictors. That or you concentrate the Plasma into a DS package to go with the Infiltrators. I used to do that, and it worked really well.
Maybe something like this?
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1044
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord
Heavy Support - 674 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
I personally have found that I don't need nearly as much CP as I had thought with these vehicle spam lists. You pretty much spend a bunch of CP at the start to infiltrate, and after that, it's just Doctrina, Plasma Specialists, and a single Wrath of Mars. (Infiltrators don't tend to live very long after opponents find out how many mortals they can spit out; as usual, watch out for Auspex Scan in this meta.)
If you really want two Battalions, you could make a mixed Battalion instead of the Patrol.
@Hesselhof
I think you need more Calivers or Hoplites to make the list work. Just vanilla Skitarii are not great for fighting things like Invictors. That or you concentrate the Plasma into a DS package to go with the Infiltrators. I used to do that, and it worked really well.
Maybe something like this?
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1044
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord
Heavy Support - 674 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Neutron Laser, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
I personally have found that I don't need nearly as much CP as I had thought with these vehicle spam lists. You pretty much spend a bunch of CP at the start to infiltrate, and after that, it's just Doctrina, Plasma Specialists, and a single Wrath of Mars. (Infiltrators don't tend to live very long after opponents find out how many mortals they can spit out; as usual, watch out for Auspex Scan in this meta.)
If you really want two Battalions, you could make a mixed Battalion instead of the Patrol.
I tend to avoid spamming Mars Boats. They are easier to kill and cannot Infiltrate. Getting those Hoplites into charge range and Skitarii onto objectives is important.
Plus, when you are up against RG, you need to be able to counter their Master of Ambush and infiltrate. (If you are going second, you get to infiltrate after they do these things, so if they redeploy 9" from your units, you can move your guys 9" back, which denies charge to Assault Centurions.)
By the way, Hoplites are like the new Breachers. They outperform against Invictors and Assault Centurions. You basically trade 4 Hoplites to kill 2 Centurions or 1 Hoplite to kill 1 Invictor. LOL.
There must be something about Hoplites im not seeing because i look at their datasheet you get off forgeworld and they just seem...meh to me.
They are T3 so easily hurt, basically relying on 5++ in shooting since their melee is deadly enough to justify the AP1/2 shots going after them instead of rangers/vanguard, and the whole "d3 damage against vehicles" is pretty moot unless they manage to find one of the few T5/6 vehicles that are in the midfield and not sitting in the far corner lobbing artillery shots.
What am i not seeing that makes them so great? i just think of my rangers/vanguard dying in droves before they do much more than be in the way and fail to see hoplites being any different.
Vineheart01 wrote: There must be something about Hoplites im not seeing because i look at their datasheet you get off forgeworld and they just seem...meh to me.
They are T3 so easily hurt, basically relying on 5++ in shooting since their melee is deadly enough to justify the AP1/2 shots going after them instead of rangers/vanguard, and the whole "d3 damage against vehicles" is pretty moot unless they manage to find one of the few T5/6 vehicles that are in the midfield and not sitting in the far corner lobbing artillery shots.
What am i not seeing that makes them so great? i just think of my rangers/vanguard dying in droves before they do much more than be in the way and fail to see hoplites being any different.
Vineheart01 wrote: There must be something about Hoplites im not seeing because i look at their datasheet you get off forgeworld and they just seem...meh to me.
They are T3 so easily hurt, basically relying on 5++ in shooting since their melee is deadly enough to justify the AP1/2 shots going after them instead of rangers/vanguard, and the whole "d3 damage against vehicles" is pretty moot unless they manage to find one of the few T5/6 vehicles that are in the midfield and not sitting in the far corner lobbing artillery shots.
What am i not seeing that makes them so great? i just think of my rangers/vanguard dying in droves before they do much more than be in the way and fail to see hoplites being any different.
Breachers seem meh to most people too. But like Breachers, they are just absurdly cheap for their statline. They cost 9 points, but they have 4++ in melee, 3+/5++ in shooting, S6 shooting and melee with Arc rule. Compare that against a Tactical Marine, Intercessor, or Scout, all of which cost more but are less durable and less capable in fighting (and shooting in the case of Tacticals and Scouts). Then consider that we have a really point efficient transport that we can put these Hoplites into to make them hard to get to. Your opponent has to pop the transport in Shooting to charge and fight them in melee. The transport meanwhile gets to OW with 12x Heavy Stubber shots on 3+ with a stratagem. Finally, consider the meta situation we are in. Most Marine lists will have Invictors, which Hoplites just take apart. Many, especially WS and RG, also run Assault Centurions, which are also a favorable trade. In fact, Hoplites melt pretty much any T6-7 vehicle. Finally, you give them Acquisition, and they have 31 attacks and 3++ in melee. Nobody going to want to fight that.
The longer I think about Hoplites, the fewer cons I can found. 9 pts per model is very good value. The biggest disadvantage is... being FW. Meaning entire ETC scene will not allow them into play :(
A little report on my Lucius tests. Ignoring -1AP is surprisingly useful. Depending on the matchup, hiding Kastelans (vs IFs) or Destroyers (vs anything else) helps in main gunline survivability quite a lot. However Invictors, Fliers, Infiltrators or Eliminators everywhere force me to start from the table more than I'd like. Invictors are absurdly good btw; even pre-nerf Stygies bombs did not have such a punch. And they explode with d6 mortals in 6" afterwards...
I also switched gravs to plasma again. 2 additional hits from gravs are cool, but with the safe-ish overcharge, plasma is just more versatile in the end. 6" of additional range helps a lot. Better wounding would be cool to mention but Transhuman Physiology is the thing - if SM want his Infantry alive, he will keep it alive. Example from today's match - 6 Kastelans killed 6 Intercessors with 54 shots (-1 to hit, negated by Dedalus)... auto-passed morale with some power or litany, can't remember now. On a side note - Kastelans lose a LOT of firepower without Wrath. 5 double tapped Kastelans failed to kill Robby...
What I don't like in my list are... Belleros. Stubbers do close to nothing unfortunately, d6 rockets have an awful consistency on number of shots, and the entire model is just too big to fit into an already dense castle. Being left outside, trying to score points with 12" movement for instance, it's a bait to be charged by nearly anything - stupid Primaris can reliably tie it in combat and call it a day. Why oh why doesn't it have a Fly... Plus 36" range is crippling - TFCs are outshooting my Belleros by a great margin. I'm seriously considering dropping the boats entirely and mono-codex army stubbornness, as 3 TFCs bring so much more consistency and artillery shooting value. It might not kill HWTs as efficiently, but with IF for ignoring cover, TFC is just... better. 60" range, rerolling 1s to wound, Tremor Shells... and are cheaper on top of that.
IronVaught wrote: Still think the bots are too good not to use? In mars.
Ive got a 1750 rtt next week. Still havent decided what to run.. cawlstar, stygies, ryza... *shrug*
They're still good. They actually wreck a ton of Marine lists. But I think boat spam might be more versatile, since there are more matchups where you can't out-shoot your opponent now. Plus, the IH nerf made Tau lists stronger again.
Haven’t seen much talk about dakka bots, are they worth playing? I was dusting off my admech and thinking about running 4 with cawl. Is it still decent or no? They seem squishy
I played with this list yestarday on 1250 points tournament (225 points max per unit). Win vs necrons and tau. Lose vs drukhari
+ assassin
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++
According to a leak of this month's white dwarf, imperium armies will now be able to take one inquisitor per detachment without losing any army bonuses (dogmas and canticles in our case).
VladimirHerzog wrote: According to a leak of this month's white dwarf, imperium armies will now be able to take one inquisitor per detachment without losing any army bonuses (dogmas and canticles in our case).
infiltrate both pregame for the turn one charge, then cast terrify with greyfax to remove overwatch (Assuming this psychic power isnt changed).
it could make for a pretty solid alpha strike.
Terrify looks like it is still the same
I am also liking the look of an Xenos Inquisitor with the warlord trait 5+ to gain CP opponent spends (for a 1CP strat you can get a WL trait AND a relic, the Xenos one is wounding non-vehicles on 2+ - i.e. give them a power sword and watch them go to town).
I am also liking the look of an Xenos Inquisitor with the warlord trait 5+ to gain CP opponent spends (for a 1CP strat you can get a WL trait AND a relic, the Xenos one is wounding non-vehicles on 2+ - i.e. give them a power sword and watch them go to town).
I am also liking the look of an Xenos Inquisitor with the warlord trait 5+ to gain CP opponent spends (for a 1CP strat you can get a WL trait AND a relic, the Xenos one is wounding non-vehicles on 2+ - i.e. give them a power sword and watch them go to town).
I think I will be running the following in most AdMech lists now mainly for psychic defense but also the additional CP will probably come in useful:
Inquisitor (55)
Ordo Xenos
Psyker – Smite & Castigation (WC 6, Target unit 18”, roll 3D6 > Lowest Ld, suffer D3 mortal wounds) (Cast & Deny 1/turn)
Plasma Pistol & Force Sword (5+8) (admittidly I do not have a model with a storm bolter otherwise...)
Inquisitorial Mandate (1CP) – WL Trait & Relic
WL Trait: Esoteric Lore (5+ to gain CP when opponent spends them)
Relic: Bio-Corrosive Poisons (wound on 2+ in melee vs non Vehicle/titanic)
Total: 68 points
I am also liking the look of an Xenos Inquisitor with the warlord trait 5+ to gain CP opponent spends (for a 1CP strat you can get a WL trait AND a relic, the Xenos one is wounding non-vehicles on 2+ - i.e. give them a power sword and watch them go to town).
I think I will be running the following in most AdMech lists now mainly for psychic defense but also the additional CP will probably come in useful:
Inquisitor (55)
Ordo Xenos
Psyker – Smite & Castigation (WC 6, Target unit 18”, roll 3D6 > Lowest Ld, suffer D3 mortal wounds) (Cast & Deny 1/turn)
Plasma Pistol & Force Sword (5+8) (admittidly I do not have a model with a storm bolter otherwise...)
Inquisitorial Mandate (1CP) – WL Trait & Relic
WL Trait: Esoteric Lore (5+ to gain CP when opponent spends them)
Relic: Bio-Corrosive Poisons (wound on 2+ in melee vs non Vehicle/titanic)
Total: 68 points
Personnally i'm really eager to run greyfax with my electro priests, especially with her new warlord trait to prevent opponents from falling back in combat, this could mean that even in situations where my priests dont kill their target (and dont have a 3++), they would keep some surviability by not being shootable. Its also super strong against all the "shoot after falling back" models that have been coming out recently.
Oh hmmm. And here I was thinking about cutting my Infiltrators for something.
Sad thing is that I am still painting these Infiltrators as I consider replacing them. SIGH...
EDIT: Okay, I really like Greyfax now. Going to wait and see what the new model in the Rumor Engine is though. I have a feeling that I will need all the points I can free up.
Suzuteo wrote: Oh hmmm. And here I was thinking about cutting my Infiltrators for something.
Sad thing is that I am still painting these Infiltrators as I consider replacing them. SIGH...
EDIT: Okay, I really like Greyfax now. Going to wait and see what the new model in the Rumor Engine is though. I have a feeling that I will need all the points I can free up.
also Coteaz can know up to 3 powers (1 is smite) cast 3 and deny 2 for 90 points (and 1CP), one of his powers grants 5++ for WC 6 on Imperium Infantry - you know that big unit of kataphrons...
also what is your thoughts on using an imperial bunker (T8 14 wounds 3+, for 100points ish) put 5 kataphrons inside (as all 5 can fire out no problem) and go from there?
Greyfax can deny twice though. EDIT: Oh, Coteaz has to take Psychic Mastery. Nevermind.
I think bringing a Bunker or Bastion/Plasma Obliterator (lol) only makes sense if you are going to hide things behind it as a LOS blocker.
EDIT 2: So one thing that is interesting is that you can fill your HQ slots with Inquisitors. If you can tolerate their relatively fragility, it's 55 points for a Ordo Xenos Psyker with Chainsword and Boltgun and the 5+ CP recycling WLT.
EDIT 3: I am thinking of going two Battalions again, with a Mixed Battalion using Greyfax and a Lucius Enginseer and a Stygies Battalion using a cheapo Ordo Xenos Inquisitor (WLT: Esoteric Lore, Relic: Blackshroud, Power: Mental Interrogation or Castigation) and Daedalosus. I am actually not sure if it is worth investing in weapons for the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor, given he's so fragile and does not have amazing stats for the cost. Also, what Psychic Power for Greyfax? Ascertainment looks amazing. She shuts down Daemon lists really hard. Snipe the characters, cripple the melee units, and prevent them from fleeing.
All I need to do is wait for word from FLG that this won't break AdMech list kosher.
All I need to do is wait for word from FLG that this won't break AdMech list kosher.
im not super familiar with the inner workings of itc (i know the missions and generic rules) but what does it change if youre not counted as admech anymore? I used to see you bring up that adding armigers to your questoris would make you non-admech and it seemed a dealbreaker to you, why is that?
Greyfax in a Graia battalion sounds like a decent anti-psychic force for Admech actually. And brings some utility with Retribution and her preventing Fall Back WLT - rerolling 1s in combat without a Mask or Prime Hermeticon, can make a counter-charging unit of Fulgurites a bit more efficient. And rerolling 1s in Overwatch... finally...
*And Ld10 (+1 from BDST) for our Infantry blobs... finally... Large squads of Kataphrons might be actually decent now, as they'd be basically immune to morale in units of ~9, with less CPs spent on 5++. Large units in general have got a lot more wieldy now.
Actually, reading the rule, I think it's already kosher.
Basically, in order to be counted in ITC as a faction, all detachments in the army come from the same faction. Inquisitors can go into any faction's detachment without breaking its rule, so it should be okay.
We also get an exception:
"Adeptus Mechanicus may take one Imperial Knight in one Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment and retain their faction for ITC purposes."
Suzuteo wrote: Actually, reading the rule, I think it's already kosher.
Basically, in order to be counted in ITC as a faction, all detachments in the army come from the same faction. Inquisitors can go into any faction's detachment without breaking its rule, so it should be okay.
We also get an exception:
"Adeptus Mechanicus may take one Imperial Knight in one Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment and retain their faction for ITC purposes."
yeah that part i get, im wondering what "counting as a faction" does.
Suzuteo wrote: Actually, reading the rule, I think it's already kosher.
Basically, in order to be counted in ITC as a faction, all detachments in the army come from the same faction. Inquisitors can go into any faction's detachment without breaking its rule, so it should be okay.
We also get an exception:
"Adeptus Mechanicus may take one Imperial Knight in one Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment and retain their faction for ITC purposes."
yeah that part i get, im wondering what "counting as a faction" does.
There's a faction specific ranking, apart from the general one. You can compete for best in faction if you bring unsouped army.
dadamowsky wrote: Greyfax in a Graia battalion sounds like a decent anti-psychic force for Admech actually. And brings some utility with Retribution and her preventing Fall Back WLT - rerolling 1s in combat without a Mask or Prime Hermeticon, can make a counter-charging unit of Fulgurites a bit more efficient. And rerolling 1s in Overwatch... finally...
*And Ld10 (+1 from BDST) for our Infantry blobs... finally... Large squads of Kataphrons might be actually decent now, as they'd be basically immune to morale in units of ~9, with less CPs spent on 5++. Large units in general have got a lot more wieldy now.
I would have thought coteaz is better in most circumstances
Cast 3 deny2 as opposed to cast 1 deny 2 (with +1's) not to mention better CC and armour.
If you were really focussed on denial hector cast 3 deny 4 (+1 within 12") would be better.
Yes it should be permissable in mono faction as it is excluded
I just was given a copy of Combat Arena recently, and I cant find where to get the 40k datasheets for the techpriest and the servitor. I have seen them online, but I cant find a PDF or other source. Any clues?
Maybe I am just blind. I went through the community website, but I don't see anything for them. I have seem the IMGUR posting before, but I dont think I have seen an actual PDF anywhere.
dadamowsky wrote: Greyfax in a Graia battalion sounds like a decent anti-psychic force for Admech actually. And brings some utility with Retribution and her preventing Fall Back WLT - rerolling 1s in combat without a Mask or Prime Hermeticon, can make a counter-charging unit of Fulgurites a bit more efficient. And rerolling 1s in Overwatch... finally...
*And Ld10 (+1 from BDST) for our Infantry blobs... finally... Large squads of Kataphrons might be actually decent now, as they'd be basically immune to morale in units of ~9, with less CPs spent on 5++. Large units in general have got a lot more wieldy now.
I would have thought coteaz is better in most circumstances
Cast 3 deny2 as opposed to cast 1 deny 2 (with +1's) not to mention better CC and armour.
If you were really focussed on denial hector cast 3 deny 4 (+1 within 12") would be better.
Yes it should be permissable in mono faction as it is excluded
I'm rather thinking about pairing Greyfax with Fulgurites, giving her No Escape warlord trait, and Terrify or Ascertainment powers. Except for Terrify, other rules mentioned are exclusive to Ordo Hereticus, hence why I opt for Greyfax now. But Coteaz indeed looks solid as well.
I always struggle with time issues in my local tournaments, often getting to turn 3,5, sometimes slower if my enemy has issues. Any tips to speed things up? I know the profiles by heart.
0XFallen wrote: I always struggle with time issues in my local tournaments, often getting to turn 3,5, sometimes slower if my enemy has issues. Any tips to speed things up? I know the profiles by heart.
How many points are tournaments now, still 2k?
As far as my time management goes, there's one little trick that has speeded up my game by quite a lot, without any real effort. I have 3 colors of dice with me: 10x white, 20x black, 30x red. Now If I have to make a dice heavy roll I don't have to count each and every single one, I just take the pile that is the closest and add or subtract the difference. I keep a "technical" dice as a separate and distinctive color, to never mix them up (I use Kill Team D6 dice set and a bunch of D4 and D10).
But in general, here are some tips for speeding up:
-Make your phases as routine as possible. Make a checklist breaking down when you do what every time if it helps.
-Decide on the macro goals of the turn before acting. Stuff like: I need to take this objective and kill these units to score X VP.
-Make decisions and follow through. Don't second guess yourself, especially in the first few turns.
-Always overkill things. It saves time and improves consistency of play.
-Use the dice app for anything with more than a handful of dice.
By the way, not getting to round 6 is pretty normal. I personally usually end in round 5. Trying to get to round 6 definitely improves your score though.
0XFallen wrote: I always struggle with time issues in my local tournaments, often getting to turn 3,5, sometimes slower if my enemy has issues. Any tips to speed things up? I know the profiles by heart.
How many points are tournaments now, still 2k?
Base rim colours so you can sort your units quick
Not building around rerolls - reroll 1's increase time by 25%
Not firing every last unit when it makes little difference that single ranger will not make a difference to that full health knight however firing 6 units of 1 ranger at different units can waste 5 mins
Learning to move units quick especially when precision is not important
Thinking during your opponents turn so when its your you can go quick as you know whats going where
If you need to go to the loo or leave the table do so in your opponents movement phase
If your deploying second and you have a big army start deploying the stuff while your oppoent deploys - im not really giveing ny opponent information if i set a hundred guardsman a screen but at 3-5s a model im saving time
Consider prioritiseing dice heavy enemy units not single powerfull shots.
Late game do only what matters if kill points don't matter their can be lots of situation where a unit can move and fire but it makes no difference to the games outcome
If you know your table in a tourney get their early group your units measure your deployment zones that way you can minimise deployment time
Group fireing - firing 3 neutron lasers at one knight is quicker than rolling three sequential yes you might get lucky and waste a shot but it can give a few mins at the end of the game
Practice with a chess clock that will tell you if its you or your opponent
I often play 200 models or 40 units and i never get clocked
So...do we know one way or another if we can use Inquisitors as an HQ choice in our detachments? That battlescribe list suggests otherwise but I guess it's not clean cut in the wording.
to me its pretty irrelevant. Phosphors rarely kill anyting and flamers only matter against a melee list. If i have some pts left over, i'll usually upgrade to flamers since the potential impact is a lot bigger.
Suzuteo wrote: Actually, reading the rule, I think it's already kosher.
Basically, in order to be counted in ITC as a faction, all detachments in the army come from the same faction. Inquisitors can go into any faction's detachment without breaking its rule, so it should be okay.
We also get an exception:
"Adeptus Mechanicus may take one Imperial Knight in one Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment and retain their faction for ITC purposes."
I believe it is also the case that we can have the Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment contain one unit of 1-3 Armigers/Knights Moirax. I'm currently working on two Lightning Lock Moirax.
Played some games against Marines lately.
Imperial fists were especially scary, but won because he forgot a lot of the rules, which one might consider bloat.
What I noticed:
Stygies is worse now as they can reroll negativ modifiers too, which seemes to boost survivabilty only ever so slightly. ( 14 less hits out of 100 3+ vs 4+ rerolling all misses )
Which brought my thought towards the standard Cawl Mars list, however considering we have Daeda now, Cawl might be replaced by a standard dominus, especially that IF ignore cover.
Which, then again gives us the possibility to consider other forge worlds as Stygies got indirectly nerfed, and Cawl too ( twice).
My current list ideas resolve around:
Lucius.
Dominus + all kataphron buffs + teleport relic + 2 units of servitors to have them available for both battlefield sides.
Deepstriking huge unit of Kataphron destroyers
Ryza.
Good with drill and plasma vanguards, and 2nd threat would be 2-3 smaller destroyer units with daeda
Dominus could be either in the drill or backfield with daeda ( thoughts?) Although I guess one could pop the canticle with the deepstike.
Graia.
Still only for a min battalion I would assume.
Stygies.
Either backfield rangers + melee battalion or in a mixed detachment for melee threats.
Mars.
Either dakkabots or, my current preference, only for a WoM bomb of infiltrators in a mixed detachment.
Agripinaa and metallica, which I almost forgot existed.
Sadly cant find any competetiv use for them
On a plus side I didnt see many smash captains anymore, so I might go with less screening and put some flamers on my destroyers.
0XFallen wrote: Played some games against Marines lately.
Imperial fists were especially scary, but won because he forgot a lot of the rules, which one might consider bloat.
What I noticed:
Stygies is worse now as they can reroll negativ modifiers too, which seemes to boost survivabilty only ever so slightly. ( 14 less hits out of 100 3+ vs 4+ rerolling all misses )
Which brought my thought towards the standard Cawl Mars list, however considering we have Daeda now, Cawl might be replaced by a standard dominus, especially that IF ignore cover.
Which, then again gives us the possibility to consider other forge worlds as Stygies got indirectly nerfed, and Cawl too ( twice).
My current list ideas resolve around:
Lucius.
Dominus + all kataphron buffs + teleport relic + 2 units of servitors to have them available for both battlefield sides.
Deepstriking huge unit of Kataphron destroyers
Ryza.
Good with drill and plasma vanguards, and 2nd threat would be 2-3 smaller destroyer units with daeda
Dominus could be either in the drill or backfield with daeda ( thoughts?) Although I guess one could pop the canticle with the deepstike.
Graia.
Still only for a min battalion I would assume.
Stygies.
Either backfield rangers + melee battalion or in a mixed detachment for melee threats.
Mars.
Either dakkabots or, my current preference, only for a WoM bomb of infiltrators in a mixed detachment.
Agripinaa and metallica, which I almost forgot existed.
Sadly cant find any competetiv use for them
On a plus side I didnt see many smash captains anymore, so I might go with less screening and put some flamers on my destroyers.
I still think stygies is good, against non-marines armies, its still the best defensive bonus we can get out of a dogma. Against Tau especially, and they are top4'ing quite a few tournaments these days.
I feel like Mars/Graia/Lucius/Ryza are only playable because of their stratagems.
Agripiina was our servitor maniple before vigilus, now its useless.
Metallica is so bad that even as a meme the forgeworld cant work.
I just came from a 3 round tournament running a Metallica list. Though you lose a little durability (stygies) and a little mortal wound output, combining strafing run with a 5 man unit of shooty bots was awesome.
I ran the Metallica warlord trait on my Dominus and proceeded to run and gun. Moving around 11-12 inches a turn while firing off 45 shots with no downside was great.
I was able to get out of combat and still fire due to the warlord and in my one game where I needed the additional firepower I advanced to midfield, then popped binaric overide.
Running and gunning is not what opponents expect. And do to the order of effect you can strafing run at the top of the turn, advance, then pop binaric overide at the end of the phsycic phase and suffer no penalty for moving and shooting.
I also got tagged in one game by numerous berserkers double fighting but due to good shoulder to shoulder positioning I was able to fall back with my bots and ballistarri and proceed to break the world eaters back.
Metallica can be good but you have to build for it.
Several admech players did very well at the Alliance Open Dutch GT. Just goes to show that the codex is still working great.
Now, with the change on the salamanders strat I am thinking of going imperial. Finally a tac to use for destroyers to be safe turn 1.
JNAProductions wrote: Inquisitors taken as part of another detachment do NOT fill a slot.
Awh. That's actually a con.
IG88 wrote: I just came from a 3 round tournament running a Metallica list. Though you lose a little durability (stygies) and a little mortal wound output, combining strafing run with a 5 man unit of shooty bots was awesome.
I ran the Metallica warlord trait on my Dominus and proceeded to run and gun. Moving around 11-12 inches a turn while firing off 45 shots with no downside was great.
I was able to get out of combat and still fire due to the warlord and in my one game where I needed the additional firepower I advanced to midfield, then popped binaric overide.
Running and gunning is not what opponents expect. And do to the order of effect you can strafing run at the top of the turn, advance, then pop binaric overide at the end of the phsycic phase and suffer no penalty for moving and shooting.
I also got tagged in one game by numerous berserkers double fighting but due to good shoulder to shoulder positioning I was able to fall back with my bots and ballistarri and proceed to break the world eaters back.
Metallica can be good but you have to build for it.
Yeah, a few months back, someone ran this sort of build with Graia. It works with Metallica too, but you don't get the WLT that lets you shoot while in melee; you can just wrap up enemy units or vehicles and shoot them to death. Instead, you get a WLT that lets you fall back and shoot with a penalty. Which is not too great, since you'd be hitting on 5s then without Cawl rerolls.
I guess if you really want to move and are willing to accept the downsides, this is an interesting option. Definitely strong in this meta, actually.
Now, with the change on the salamanders strat I am thinking of going imperial. Finally a tac to use for destroyers to be safe turn 1.
How you mean this?
Take a unit of scouts, deploy out of los for your opponent. Put your destroyer unit within 6 of the scouts and in your opponents shooting phase you pop the self sacrifice strat so your destroyers can't be shot.
Now, with the change on the salamanders strat I am thinking of going imperial. Finally a tac to use for destroyers to be safe turn 1.
How you mean this?
Take a unit of scouts, deploy out of los for your opponent. Put your destroyer unit within 6 of the scouts and in your opponents shooting phase you pop the self sacrifice strat so your destroyers can't be shot.
I would read the FAQ for salamanders again, pretty sure the salamanders unit has to be visible now in order for that ability to work. If you hide them the opponent can just shoot the protected unit as normal. The new alpha legion shenanigans work in a similar way with their conceal strat if rumors are to be believed.
JNAProductions wrote: Inquisitors taken as part of another detachment do NOT fill a slot.
Awh. That's actually a con.
IG88 wrote: I just came from a 3 round tournament running a Metallica list. Though you lose a little durability (stygies) and a little mortal wound output, combining strafing run with a 5 man unit of shooty bots was awesome.
I ran the Metallica warlord trait on my Dominus and proceeded to run and gun. Moving around 11-12 inches a turn while firing off 45 shots with no downside was great.
I was able to get out of combat and still fire due to the warlord and in my one game where I needed the additional firepower I advanced to midfield, then popped binaric overide.
Running and gunning is not what opponents expect. And do to the order of effect you can strafing run at the top of the turn, advance, then pop binaric overide at the end of the phsycic phase and suffer no penalty for moving and shooting.
I also got tagged in one game by numerous berserkers double fighting but due to good shoulder to shoulder positioning I was able to fall back with my bots and ballistarri and proceed to break the world eaters back.
Metallica can be good but you have to build for it.
Yeah, a few months back, someone ran this sort of build with Graia. It works with Metallica too, but you don't get the WLT that lets you shoot while in melee; you can just wrap up enemy units or vehicles and shoot them to death. Instead, you get a WLT that lets you fall back and shoot with a penalty. Which is not too great, since you'd be hitting on 5s then without Cawl rerolls.
I guess if you really want to move and are willing to accept the downsides, this is an interesting option. Definitely strong in this meta, actually.
If you bring the Daladeosus guy he mitigates the -1, then the shooty bonus strat for the chicken walkers, so effectively no penalties when falling back. The Daladeosus guy is auto include now, fairly busted for 50pt
Automatically Appended Next Post: Admech is the most powerful army in the shooting phase hands down. Were under the radar so we shouldn’t get price hikes.
Now, with the change on the salamanders strat I am thinking of going imperial. Finally a tac to use for destroyers to be safe turn 1.
How you mean this?
Take a unit of scouts, deploy out of los for your opponent. Put your destroyer unit within 6 of the scouts and in your opponents shooting phase you pop the self sacrifice strat so your destroyers can't be shot.
I would read the FAQ for salamanders again, pretty sure the salamanders unit has to be visible now in order for that ability to work. If you hide them the opponent can just shoot the protected unit as normal. The new alpha legion shenanigans work in a similar way with their conceal strat if rumors are to be believed.
Protected units must also be wholly within 6" of the protecting units now.
IG88 wrote: If you bring the Daladeosus guy he mitigates the -1, then the shooty bonus strat for the chicken walkers, so effectively no penalties when falling back. The Daladeosus guy is auto include now, fairly busted for 50pt
Automatically Appended Next Post: Admech is the most powerful army in the shooting phase hands down. Were under the radar so we shouldn’t get price hikes.
You know what's better than cancelling out -1 to hit? Getting +1 to hit.
But yeah, he's a great addition. Practically mandatory given how universal he is.
I dunno. I think Tau is stronger now that IH got nerfed. Their new and improved Saviour Protocols is ridiculous.
Quite contentious if true! I quite like Canticles really and considering I’ve just spent a lot of money on some IK allies and an entire Assassinorum Execution Force that won’t be tabletop-ready until post-CA, frequently play SM and am also an Ork player I fear I may be getting the shaft from this book.
Cancticles are strong (or meh without Cawl after T2), but not strong enough to warrant the exclusion of Assassins AND Knights!
That would be a kick to the mechanical groins of assassins, knights and admech in one foul blow....
Admech allying with their own Knights can't use Canticles? LOL. I thought GW were trying to make things "fluffy". Maybe it should be allowed if they are "Questor Mechanicus"? We won't know until we see the big, deserves an FAQ if not.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Admech allying with their own Knights can't use Canticles? LOL. I thought GW were trying to make things "fluffy". Maybe it should be allowed if they are "Questor Mechanicus"? We won't know until we see the big, deserves an FAQ if not.
I have 4 Knights and ~1000 Custodes for my AdMech army....
ImperialDwarf wrote: I hope this is joke.
- ANY knights
- Assassins
- Custodes
- etc...
Can't be true. There's no way they'd cut marine points without even seeing their new codex in action. Apart from that, it reads like a wishlist of nerfs to each top army.
IanVanCheese wrote: Can't be true. There's no way they'd cut marine points without even seeing their new codex in action. Apart from that, it reads like a wishlist of nerfs to each top army.
As i understand CA was printed BEFORE new sm codex release....
IanVanCheese wrote: Can't be true. There's no way they'd cut marine points without even seeing their new codex in action. Apart from that, it reads like a wishlist of nerfs to each top army.
As i understand CA was printed BEFORE new sm codex release....
That's crazy far out, why is the lead time on CA so much longer than the codexes? At any rate, they would have known internally that a new codex was coming and not randomly messed with it.
If true, no changes to any other army will make a difference. Marines are already on another level.
For my sanity, I'm hoping this is just a fake collection of some other rumours with a few lies sprinkled in to annoy people.
That CA leak has to be false They have never had updated points for an army that got a codex around CA time Why would CA complete 180 a faq on Tau that, again, just happened Making Canticles "all admech or nothing" makes no sense because we have a STRATAGEM to allow Knights to use it. And none of them are overly powerful these days since the +1 save is "counts as cover" and theres plenty of anti-cover now, which was the main big one we wanted anyway. Plus, Admech arent even a top tier army so why hurt them this badly? i'd expect that kind of behavior against orks because "orks only exist to make marines look good" but admech are imperials...
Eh i'll just flatout refuse to face vanilla marines. They are the only problem.
Not gonna lie i am going to be extremely mad if the Canticles one is true and doesnt have an exception for knights. My primary point for having admech is i love the knight models, but had no imperial armies. Admech appealed to me the most outside of the Knight half so...obvious pick is obvious.
So there's at least some truth to the rumors then. I really hope the marine one is false but the rest I can live with. Especially shield drones losing their BSFNP for the savior protocols, man that's annoying.
Honestly most of it sounds believable and things the community cried out for, aside from the marines and canticles. Maybe every army will have a special rule that only works if they're mono codex now? I.e. orders for IG and stuff like that
Vineheart01 wrote: Eh i'll just flatout refuse to face vanilla marines.
They are the only problem.
Not gonna lie i am going to be extremely mad if the Canticles one is true and doesnt have an exception for knights. My primary point for having admech is i love the knight models, but had no imperial armies. Admech appealed to me the most outside of the Knight half so...obvious pick is obvious.
Yeah, the problem is that almost everyone at my LGS is a marines player now. The canticle changes wouldnt affect me that much because i already play mono-admech (with an inquisitor but unless they change the ruling on this, i would keep my canticles anyway).
Technically so are most of mine in my area but the main 3 people i play with arent. Or if they are, theyre not vanilla marines, which are laughably bad right now. (Spacewolves are...sad atm)
Im actually hoping the upcoming BA stuff gives them a needed boost and fixes their wonkyness with primaris. My roommate doesnt even like playing them because theyre in such a weird state right now.
In general loss of canticles wont affect me since that +1 via cover rarely helps anymore (so many ignore cover, or fast melee) and i usually have multiple Dominus' for static reroll bubbles, but losing the reroll 1s in shooting or melee with my knight via that stratagem will definitely hurt. That has saved my bacon countless times (2D6 shots, roll 5 1s and a handful of 2s....rerolled all 1s into successful hits OH THANK THE OMNISSIAH lol)
Seems unlikely to have CA change ontop of a supplement. I mean, you would end up with all sorts of contradictions. Like a supplement increasing the points on an HQ because they buffed it, but CA dropping it (from its original value) because it sucks.
That being said, a part of me is wishing for it to be true, if only to kick Eldar and Tau in the shins.
I call bull on those leaks. It would invalidate a lot of the Admech codex, for example the strat that gives your knight cancticles, except it cant have cantices!
However, this is GW, so we can't totally rule anything out.
Well maybe Questoris Mechanicus will give canticles (which I doubt) or Questoris Mechanicus are exempt from breaking canticles like Inquisitors (and hopefully assassins) are.
After a brief discussion on Discord that is a very likely change following the precedent set by SM to combat soup...
Which in turn means they can buff canticles to more reasonable levels which I would appreciate.
Well something to think about is they better Errata this stuff too and soon. Otherwise they are selling invalid rulebooks in their stores that make it a *requirement* for you to buy things like CA and PA just to make your army legal.
Previously GW have stated that if for example, you purchased an index, then this is valid. They've also gone out of their way to errata Codicies to keep them valid.
As an example i own the ePub for CSM 2.0 that I purchased some weeks ago. The Night Lords Stratagem "In Mindnight Clad" (-1 to hit) has been nerfed in PA2 to only apply in the Shooting Phase, whereas previously it was against shooting attacks. As others have found in this thread Auspex Scan on deep strike is deadly. It used to be that you could add an additional -1 to hit, making Auspex Scan -2 to hit.
With the "improved" CA2 rules you cannot do this. However, I don't intend to spend 40 USD on a book which has only 5 pages relevant to me. CSM 2.0 has not been errated so I will continue to use the version of "In Midnight Clad" in that book.
Or are GW now saying your Codex is invalid unless you buy *all supplements* like PA2 PA3, CA etc etc, that *may* have a a few rules on your codex?
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone seen the canticles rumoured changes? Legit? Nonsense?
That Inquisition rule makes me wonder if it's legit. Why else would they feel to clarify that? It's never been that way before.
I think the more likely scenario is that its future proofing the Inquisitors for a change in the AdMech PA book down the road. The level of rules re-design necessary for a Canticles re-design is beyond the scope of a CA book.
more than likely mechanicus knights will get a blurp saying they dont deny canticles. If its not in the CA to do that, it will probably be in the eratta that soon follows after all admech uproar like hell lol Which would deny using imperialis knights but personally i couldnt care less about that lol.
they'd still charge the same amount, or at best 5 bucks off.
I wish the fluff was separate from rules and could be purchased on their own. I am not a big lore buff in this game, never once read more than a couple pages of a codex's lore chapters.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Yeah, but then the pts raise on disintegrators is pretty pointless no? lowering the pts cost of our second best HQ is pretty strange IMO.
Now i hope that ruststalkers also get a decent pricedrop because as it stands, they are pretty much unplayed.
Rustalkers could be half the points and I still wouldn't use them. They have the issue of "what's the point of existing". Infiltrators at least Infiltrate so they get use from me at times.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Yeah, but then the pts raise on disintegrators is pretty pointless no? lowering the pts cost of our second best HQ is pretty strange IMO.
Now i hope that ruststalkers also get a decent pricedrop because as it stands, they are pretty much unplayed.
Rustalkers could be half the points and I still wouldn't use them. They have the issue of "what's the point of existing". Infiltrators at least Infiltrate so they get use from me at times.
sure they dont have any good use, but making them 7ppm would make them a decent alternative to fulgurites (if you compare points). They probably still wouldnt be top tier but at least i could see a use for them.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Yeah, but then the pts raise on disintegrators is pretty pointless no? lowering the pts cost of our second best HQ is pretty strange IMO.
Now i hope that ruststalkers also get a decent pricedrop because as it stands, they are pretty much unplayed.
Rustalkers could be half the points and I still wouldn't use them. They have the issue of "what's the point of existing". Infiltrators at least Infiltrate so they get use from me at times.
sure they dont have any good use, but making them 7ppm would make them a decent alternative to fulgurites (if you compare points). They probably still wouldnt be top tier but at least i could see a use for them.
What they really need is their grenades back.
For under 10 points I might use them... as cannon fodder and speedbumps.
Sicarians in general need more suvivability and LD, Ruststalkers need more lethality and their grenades back, maybe a charge bonus or reroll would help them at least get into melee, where they dont do much currently anyway.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Yeah, but then the pts raise on disintegrators is pretty pointless no? lowering the pts cost of our second best HQ is pretty strange IMO.
Now i hope that ruststalkers also get a decent pricedrop because as it stands, they are pretty much unplayed.
Rustalkers could be half the points and I still wouldn't use them. They have the issue of "what's the point of existing". Infiltrators at least Infiltrate so they get use from me at times.
sure they dont have any good use, but making them 7ppm would make them a decent alternative to fulgurites (if you compare points). They probably still wouldnt be top tier but at least i could see a use for them.
What they really need is their grenades back.
For under 10 points I might use them... as cannon fodder and speedbumps.
Sicarians in general need more suvivability and LD, Ruststalkers need more lethality and their grenades back, maybe a charge bonus or reroll would help them at least get into melee, where they dont do much currently anyway.
advance and charge on ruststalkers would help a lot. 8"(+1) + D6(+1) + D6(+1) if you put them with a manipulus could make them quite mobile, and they could charge on turn 1 after using stygies to infiltrate them.
But then i'd rather infiltrate a skorpius filled with fulgurites and have a meatshield to soak up the overwatch for the priests
65 points for a Manipulus is pretty good. Their body is actually not bad for fighting. And other armies would glady spend the extra 35 points just for the movement aura.
I doubt the Duneriders are going up 10 points. They are in a good spot, comparable to Rhinos and such. Maybe the Disintegrators can go up a little though.
Ruststalkers need to be redesigned. They are just bad. But I guess if I had to figure out some way to use them... maybe put them into a transport and equip them with the double blades to kill Space Marine chaff?
@Vineheart01
Well, they are putting the points in a separate Munitorum Field Manual. Comes with CA2019. Lol.
only parts of that i believe is the manip, armigers, and prince with wings.
Manip was supposed to be between Engiseer and Dominus, but he came out at a bad time so didnt get his points adjusted with the rest. Makes sense to drop him some points.
Armigers have always been in this odd "just slightly not good" position, and the new FW variant is flatout better in literally every aspect too so dropping them makes sense.
Prince with wings i just never see being a threat since Flying Circus was clipped.
Rest of that feels like wishlisting. If CSM went to 11ppm it would kinda be fair since they lack all the vanilla marine fancies, but since when has GW ever rebalanced like that?
Suzuteo wrote: I think it's real. Probably means CSM aren't getting the supplement treatment.
I really wasn’t expecting CSM to get supplements. Their stuff in Faith & Fury is half of what they’d get in supplements anyway, so seems like (as with Black Templars), the rest of us get Psychic Awakening style rules additions.
Vineheart01 wrote: only parts of that i believe is the manip, armigers, and prince with wings.
Manip was supposed to be between Engiseer and Dominus, but he came out at a bad time so didnt get his points adjusted with the rest. Makes sense to drop him some points.
Armigers have always been in this odd "just slightly not good" position, and the new FW variant is flatout better in literally every aspect too so dropping them makes sense.
Prince with wings i just never see being a threat since Flying Circus was clipped.
Rest of that feels like wishlisting. If CSM went to 11ppm it would kinda be fair since they lack all the vanilla marine fancies, but since when has GW ever rebalanced like that?
It's confirmed to be real, this is legit.
I think we're past the point of point drops helping the admech units that still need help. Stuff like ruststalkers are mechanically useless as a unit. In order to make them worth running they need to be cheaper than our troops almost.
I'm convinced whoever worked on admech had never actually read the old admech codexes. The amount of upgrades and abilities that are missing just baffles me, especially the skitarii armywide scout and relentless rules. Oh yeah, and the fact that infiltrators and rustalkers used to have that amazing dunestrider rule. And infiltrators affected not just LD, but BS and WS (and Initiative, but not really sure how you'd represent that. Making them able to make a unit fight last would be pretty busted unless you limited it to a strat) oh yeah, and the ruststalkers had an amazing grenade. Oh yeah, and onagers could be in squadrons, to help their invuln. But we didn't get that either.
I never played cult Mechanicus, but if they got handled half as bad as skitarii did then that's an insult too. it's a real shame too, a lot of the old rules from 7th, modified to make sense for 8th, would help a lot of our underperforming units.
Tastyfish wrote: The "French CA leaks" are a mistranslation, it's someone suggesting what they would want to see from CA not a rumour.
Really? But didn’t the french leaks include some bad stuff like SM points drops? Why would anyone want to see those?
Anyway, real photographed leaks have hit now. None for admech so far but massive drops for Space Wolves and some significant Nurgle changes (8 point Plaguebearers, 3 or 4 point Poxwalkers, etc).
Vineheart01 wrote: only parts of that i believe is the manip, armigers, and prince with wings.
Manip was supposed to be between Engiseer and Dominus, but he came out at a bad time so didnt get his points adjusted with the rest. Makes sense to drop him some points.
Armigers have always been in this odd "just slightly not good" position, and the new FW variant is flatout better in literally every aspect too so dropping them makes sense.
Prince with wings i just never see being a threat since Flying Circus was clipped.
Rest of that feels like wishlisting. If CSM went to 11ppm it would kinda be fair since they lack all the vanilla marine fancies, but since when has GW ever rebalanced like that?
Dude... Its either real or fake. No inbetweens. If its real, why would only some of the suggested changes be true? That makes no sensem
Vineheart01 wrote: only parts of that i believe is the manip, armigers, and prince with wings.
Manip was supposed to be between Engiseer and Dominus, but he came out at a bad time so didnt get his points adjusted with the rest. Makes sense to drop him some points.
Armigers have always been in this odd "just slightly not good" position, and the new FW variant is flatout better in literally every aspect too so dropping them makes sense.
Prince with wings i just never see being a threat since Flying Circus was clipped.
Rest of that feels like wishlisting. If CSM went to 11ppm it would kinda be fair since they lack all the vanilla marine fancies, but since when has GW ever rebalanced like that?
It's confirmed to be real, this is legit.
I think we're past the point of point drops helping the admech units that still need help. Stuff like ruststalkers are mechanically useless as a unit. In order to make them worth running they need to be cheaper than our troops almost.
I'm convinced whoever worked on admech had never actually read the old admech codexes. The amount of upgrades and abilities that are missing just baffles me, especially the skitarii armywide scout and relentless rules. Oh yeah, and the fact that infiltrators and rustalkers used to have that amazing dunestrider rule. And infiltrators affected not just LD, but BS and WS (and Initiative, but not really sure how you'd represent that. Making them able to make a unit fight last would be pretty busted unless you limited it to a strat) oh yeah, and the ruststalkers had an amazing grenade. Oh yeah, and onagers could be in squadrons, to help their invuln. But we didn't get that either.
I never played cult Mechanicus, but if they got handled half as bad as skitarii did then that's an insult too. it's a real shame too, a lot of the old rules from 7th, modified to make sense for 8th, would help a lot of our underperforming units.
Straight facts. Even the damn galvanic rifle, which SHOULD have been ap-1 got reduced to "ap-1 on a 6" Ruststalkers got it the worst. They used to be capable of killing khorne terminators in melee provided they survived past the first turn. Now they are useless. They should have a rule where each model's weapons are ap-3 or -4 once they wound or damage an enemy unit, and lasts until they are out of combat or attack a different unit. Pretty similar to 7th
Tastyfish wrote: The "French CA leaks" are a mistranslation, it's someone suggesting what they would want to see from CA not a rumour.
Really? But didn’t the french leaks include some bad stuff like SM points drops? Why would anyone want to see those?
Anyway, real photographed leaks have hit now. None for admech so far but massive drops for Space Wolves and some significant Nurgle changes (8 point Plaguebearers, 3 or 4 point Poxwalkers, etc).
Alkaline_Hound wrote: How many models does an elite admech army have, since converting 10 models is fun, but converting 100 is not?
Well, unless your army is built around buffing Kataphrons, you are going to want 3 units of 5 Rangers, or maybe 6 units of 5.
After that, the model count is extremely low. 4 Robots is 440 points. Onagers and Skorpius are 120 points. All the units you will be using other than Rangers have very low model counts.
Well we got an icarus grasshopper as a triple model kit.. trying to milk it for all that its worth.
It looks rather small though, so I cant imagine it being able to carry anything but 5 skitarii.
The shown version, which I presume is the gunboat, looks like to have 2 stubbers and something akin to a big stubber...
If that's the kind of firepower it brings, for any points cost, its a hard pass.
Anyhow, stubbers suck, so the transport and the bomber are probably going to be the best. However, the Dunerider is already excellent, so maybe just bombers.
That being said, we're going to end up out-raiding Drukhari if these are T5 MSU carriers. The idea of bringing a swarm of them and dropping them all over the place is amusing.
Also, this might not have the spoiled joint or the lever action rifle... so more to come? Maybe some Scourge equivalent for Skitarii?
The Forgemaster wrote:I see two rumour engines here - the wings and the bombs, what about you guys?
Different Wings for sure. The rumored wings look like it belongs to infantry.
Octovol wrote:Those could be heavy phosphor...because apparently they look the same lol
Could be, might be the "smaller" phosphor variant from the kataphrons.
Actually now i look again, the guns on the main picture are different to the ones in the detail breakout. Definitely not stubbers but not necessarily phosphor either.
The ‘feet’ intrigue me, are they purely aesthetic? That would be odd for an admech thing, what function they might have ai dont know. Perhaps it gets to ignore heavy weapon penalties by using its feet to perch on things lol
The Forgemaster wrote:I see two rumour engines here - the wings and the bombs, what about you guys?
Different Wings for sure. The rumored wings look like it belongs to infantry.
Octovol wrote:Those could be heavy phosphor...because apparently they look the same lol
Could be, might be the "smaller" phosphor variant from the kataphrons.
Actually now i look again, the guns on the main picture are different to the ones in the detail breakout. Definitely not stubbers but not necessarily phosphor either.
The ‘feet’ intrigue me, are they purely aesthetic? That would be odd for an admech thing, what function they might have ai dont know. Perhaps it gets to ignore heavy weapon penalties by using its feet to perch on things lol
Maybe to simulate the hover rule.
Or, because like all admech vehicles( except skorpius??) have animalistic structures,
this one seems like a bird and or bunny. Our vehicles have a lot of purely aesthetic stuff too, in the search for knowledge our vehicles need to be prepared for anything.
It makes for fun reading. I won’t spoil the surprise...
You mean points? It's rather expected. But Knights went out (from the European at least) meta, it has been clearly visible at the WTC championship how pressed they are. I guess the trend will continue. But drops for Armigers are actually welcomed for allying them IMO in less CP-dependant mechanized Admech variant.
Yeah. Actually I thought all Questoris will go significantly up in points, as the CA was written at the time when Knights were at almost every table. The king is dead I guess.
aw i was hoping the wing rumor engine was a gargoyle-ish FA infantry. Oh well, planes are cool too. Thing looks like its probably pricy points-wise though. edit: actually, now that i look at it, that plane doesnt match the rumorengine wing. HMMMM......
Let's talk Arc Rifles on Skitariii MSUs in Duneriders for a moment. I believe Arc Rifles at 2pts have became better than non-Ryza Plasma Calivers actually. For the cost of 1 Caliver (11 pts) we can field 5,5 Arcs now. So it's 2 shots vs 10 (assuming RF), and it allows to saturate 2,5 Skitarii units with special weapons. The math goes like:
T8 3+ vehs
Arcs in RF: 2,2
Caliver OC: 1,1
T7 3+ vehs
Arcs: 2,2
Caliver: 1,4
PEQ in cover
Arcs: 1,4
Caliver OC: 1,4
GEQ no cover
Arcs: 3,7
Caliver (no OC): 1,1
Also, I believe Serpentas on Dragoons might be a viable pick now, to side-shoot some pesky objective campers we dont want to charge, or to help clearing the screens that 0AP Stubbers have failed (as always) to finish off.
dadamowsky wrote: Let's talk Arc Rifles on Skitariii MSUs in Duneriders for a moment. I believe Arc Rifles at 2pts have became better than non-Ryza Plasma Calivers actually. For the cost of 1 Caliver (11 pts) we can field 5,5 Arcs now. So it's 2 shots vs 10 (assuming RF), and it allows to saturate 2,5 Skitarii units with special weapons. The math goes like:
T8 3+ vehs
Arcs in RF: 2,2
Caliver OC: 1,1
T7 3+ vehs
Arcs: 2,2
Caliver: 1,4
PEQ in cover
Arcs: 1,4
Caliver OC: 1,4
GEQ no cover
Arcs: 3,7
Caliver (no OC): 1,1
Also, I believe Serpentas on Dragoons might be a viable pick now, to side-shoot some pesky objective campers we dont want to charge, or to help clearing the screens that 0AP Stubbers have failed (as always) to finish off.
But you also lose more standard weaponry this way. And having more quality and expensive models in transports is better, isnt it?
I was quite upset when i realized that Arc Rifles werent that great after i had already painted 6 of them on my rangers.
With that price drop...and the math shown...now im glad
dadamowsky wrote: Let's talk Arc Rifles on Skitariii MSUs in Duneriders for a moment. I believe Arc Rifles at 2pts have became better than non-Ryza Plasma Calivers actually. For the cost of 1 Caliver (11 pts) we can field 5,5 Arcs now. So it's 2 shots vs 10 (assuming RF), and it allows to saturate 2,5 Skitarii units with special weapons. The math goes like:
T8 3+ vehs
Arcs in RF: 2,2
Caliver OC: 1,1
T7 3+ vehs
Arcs: 2,2
Caliver: 1,4
PEQ in cover
Arcs: 1,4
Caliver OC: 1,4
GEQ no cover
Arcs: 3,7
Caliver (no OC): 1,1
Also, I believe Serpentas on Dragoons might be a viable pick now, to side-shoot some pesky objective campers we dont want to charge, or to help clearing the screens that 0AP Stubbers have failed (as always) to finish off.
But you also lose more standard weaponry this way. And having more quality and expensive models in transports is
better, isnt it?
Arc is better than Galvanic or Rad Carbine, assuming RF range (without RF Carbine wins in clearing GEQs). My reasoning here is - we trade a Caliver punch in surgical strike in a specific point of the table, for a high saturation of medium quality shooting on all of our Skitarii. Added value is lower points cost on the said Skitarii, so the attrition is less painful, while points being saved can be spent on something else.
Actually now i look again, the guns on the main picture are different to the ones in the detail breakout. Definitely not stubbers but not necessarily phosphor either.
The ‘feet’ intrigue me, are they purely aesthetic? That would be odd for an admech thing, what function they might have ai dont know. Perhaps it gets to ignore heavy weapon penalties by using its feet to perch on things lol
There's two different 'versions' of the feet, at least.
1:06 in the video shows the 'skids' for what looks to be the transport variant, which lacks the side guns that the one we have the picture of. That has the 'wings' on the landing assembly closed, while the gunship or whatever it is that we have a picture of has the 'wings' open and they match the rumor engine picture in that way.
More than likely the "feet" are its excuse to getting Hover access.
Would be interesting for it to have some oddly complex rule that drops the Fly keyword entirely using those legs but given they didnt do anything with the Ramp on our transport, doubt anything fancy will come from it. Its just the usual admech mechano-leg thing in the end.
We must be getting some sort of jetpack style model. The new model doesn't have the lever actions and the wing looks a little different. Maybe flying infiltrators? Those would look pretty sweet, or at least an equivalent
Wowwww... our army is ridiculously cheap now. What to do with these points? Lol.
Ugh so I guess I won't be finishing painting my second unit of Hoplites anytime soon. At 14 ppm, Fulgurites are absolutely nuts. They just gobble up Marines, and they're now comparable in points.
I don't have my formatter on my phone, but I'm thinking:
Alkaline_Hound wrote: So uhm, if my list is heavy on kataphrons and other special infantry like the priests and sneaky boys, then how many models will I need for a 2k list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS has anyone of you tried converting the transport tank? If so how did it look?
I've seen a 3d model in Thingiverse thats a Dunerider on Dunecrawler legs that looks really cool as a conversion.
As for model count, I run 2 transports of 10 Fulgurites with my Kataphrons personally. I guess it depends on how many points you plan on spending on kataphrons vs skitarii and how many detachments you are running.
dadamowsky wrote: Let's talk Arc Rifles on Skitariii MSUs in Duneriders for a moment. I believe Arc Rifles at 2pts have became better than non-Ryza Plasma Calivers actually. For the cost of 1 Caliver (11 pts) we can field 5,5 Arcs now. So it's 2 shots vs 10 (assuming RF), and it allows to saturate 2,5 Skitarii units with special weapons. The math goes like:
T8 3+ vehs
Arcs in RF: 2,2
Caliver OC: 1,1
T7 3+ vehs
Arcs: 2,2
Caliver: 1,4
PEQ in cover
Arcs: 1,4
Caliver OC: 1,4
GEQ no cover
Arcs: 3,7
Caliver (no OC): 1,1
Also, I believe Serpentas on Dragoons might be a viable pick now, to side-shoot some pesky objective campers we dont want to charge, or to help clearing the screens that 0AP Stubbers have failed (as always) to finish off.
Just saying, you can't just compare Calivers to Arc Rifles like this. There's a Skitarii MSU tax per special weapon slot. Not to mention opportunity cost. Anyhow, in this case, it's 62 points for two Calivers on Vanguard versus 39 points for two Arc Rifles on Rangers. The end math is that Calivers are still better against most targets. But Arc Rifles are sort of a why not proposition for anyone bringing Rangers.
Because the range doesn't mesh well with Rangers. I know Arqs are a hard sell, but honestly they're one of the few dangerous sniping you can do as long as you get 3 in a squad and Strat them to be BS2+. That hits supporting characters HARD.
Granted I used Graia so I'm okay with the max squad sizes.
dadamowsky wrote: Let's talk Arc Rifles on Skitariii MSUs in Duneriders for a moment. I believe Arc Rifles at 2pts have became better than non-Ryza Plasma Calivers actually. For the cost of 1 Caliver (11 pts) we can field 5,5 Arcs now. So it's 2 shots vs 10 (assuming RF), and it allows to saturate 2,5 Skitarii units with special weapons. The math goes like:
T8 3+ vehs
Arcs in RF: 2,2
Caliver OC: 1,1
T7 3+ vehs
Arcs: 2,2
Caliver: 1,4
PEQ in cover
Arcs: 1,4
Caliver OC: 1,4
GEQ no cover
Arcs: 3,7
Caliver (no OC): 1,1
Also, I believe Serpentas on Dragoons might be a viable pick now, to side-shoot some pesky objective campers we dont want to charge, or to help clearing the screens that 0AP Stubbers have failed (as always) to finish off.
Just saying, you can't just compare Calivers to Arc Rifles like this. There's a Skitarii MSU tax per special weapon slot. Not to mention opportunity cost. Anyhow, in this case, it's 62 points for two Calivers on Vanguard versus 39 points for two Arc Rifles on Rangers. The end math is that Calivers are still better against most targets. But Arc Rifles are sort of a why not proposition for anyone bringing Rangers.
I'm comparing from a purely points efficiency cost. Beaides, you pay the MSU anyway, whenever you bring a double battalions setup (which is in my case a default go to, that got cheaper by 30 pts on HQs). Calivers indeed win if you need a concrete punch in the very specific place of the table from the very specific special weapon slot, but I believe they've lost a lot of the attractiveness in the big picture. As far as opportunity cost goes, well... opponent's is dropping when he pummel your forward Skitarii squads, so it's not like we are only losing strength for gaining points.
I'm imagining my 2 or 3 boats with Vanguards bringing a mixed setup - 2/2, maybe 3/1 of Arcs and Calivers now. Maybe, if I want to run Fulgurites along, it would be purely Arcs as the solid punch carry a stick.
@dadamowsky
Sure. But I run 8 Calivers right now. That means 44 Arc Rifles. I would need to run 22 MSUs to field that many; 248 points for the Calivers versus 858 for the Arc Rifles. Efficiency that does not consider other costs can lead to distorted thinking.
Actually, I think Calivers are more relevant than ever. In the current meta, good lists:
-Go first to alpha strike very hard (vs. Marines matchups)
-Take multiple units to prevent being focused down (vs. Tau, Eldar)
-Can go 6 rounds or table the opponent with 4 rounds
-Can handle hordes (vs. GSC, Orcs, Chaos)
-Can handle flyers (vs. Eldari, Tau, Necrons)
-Can handle Knights
-Have indirect fire (vs. Guard, AdMech, Tau)
3 new flyers is awesome, really looking forward to seeing the datasheets and points costs for them. Not a bad time to be Ad Mech players really combined with the CA drops. Bad time to be my wallet though
Efficiency that does not consider other costs can lead to distorted thinking.
I agree with this massively Suzuteo - efficiency is very important but it needs to be balanced with effectiveness. One without the other doesn’t necessarily lead to a good list and it’s important to remember that the former doesn’t necessarily equal the latter.
As I see it calivers are for concentrated firepower on Vanguards in transports (particularly Drills) and arc rifles are for MSU Rangers if you have points spare. Even then I often find calivers a little underwhelming, but it’s a tactic that we can’t do in other ways without out-of-the-meta lists (like Lucius).
Tiberius501 wrote: I reckon the rumour engines of the wing, that’s similar to the new flyer’s, and the rifle are going to be for a flying character.
I'm personally thinking that it will be two different items entirely.
Yeah the rumour engine is definitely not the same wing as any of the archeopter variants.
It’s interesting that all ruststalker and infiltrator loadouts cost the same now and a priceps is the same cost as a regular now. 11 for a ruststalker, 14 for an infiltrator. Though the only time youd take Ruststalkers is if you didn’t have the 30 pts difference to a squad of fulgurites and you still wanted a melee option.
Nice drops on our hq, datasmiths are still worthless but hey, at least i now have a decent chunk of saved points to spend on other stuff.
6pt reduction on heavy grav is nice for me too as i personally dont get on with plasma.
still dont feel like heavy grav is worth it. The strength difference is my issue with it, even ignoring Ryza stratagem existing. For a measily 3 extra points (its actually cheaper than plasma now) you get +3 strength and proper AP. The extra damage against 2+ save targets is pretty meh given thats pretty much only TEQs, everything else with a 2+ save thats fielded have high toughness too. A lot of targets you want to remove quickly are Sv3+ atm, given primaris are everywhere.
It doesnt seem like as bad of an option now, but i still dont think i'll consider it over plasma. Upside for me though is my kataphrons are able to swap that weapon anyway so if im proven wrong, no harm to me lol
Vineheart01 wrote: still dont feel like heavy grav is worth it.
The strength difference is my issue with it, even ignoring Ryza stratagem existing. For a measily 3 extra points (its actually cheaper than plasma now) you get +3 strength and proper AP. The extra damage against 2+ save targets is pretty meh given thats pretty much only TEQs, everything else with a 2+ save thats fielded have high toughness too. A lot of targets you want to remove quickly are Sv3+ atm, given primaris are everywhere.
It doesnt seem like as bad of an option now, but i still dont think i'll consider it over plasma. Upside for me though is my kataphrons are able to swap that weapon anyway so if im proven wrong, no harm to me lol
Your grav stats seem to be out a bit. Both grav and plasma are -3 ap and 1 damage. The difference comes against targets with a 3+ save, which is just about anything you’d want to take lots of wounds off. With a ryza and a strategm plasma is still better for sure, but i’ll nevr run ryza so i’m comparing them plain. The +2 str is the difference. A wound roll without increasing the plasma str you’re wounding t6 on 3, t7 on 4 and t8 on 5. Heavy grav wounds all those on 5+ but with a guaranteed 5 shots for less points and a potential for much more damage without having to spend cp.
I just dont like plasma, without the ryza benefits and strategms its just a high str high ap heavy bolter for many more points.
Suzuteo wrote: @dadamowsky
Sure. But I run 8 Calivers right now. That means 44 Arc Rifles. I would need to run 22 MSUs to field that many; 248 points for the Calivers versus 858 for the Arc Rifles. Efficiency that does not consider other costs can lead to distorted thinking.
Actually, I think Calivers are more relevant than ever. In the current meta, good lists:
-Go first to alpha strike very hard (vs. Marines matchups)
-Take multiple units to prevent being focused down (vs. Tau, Eldar)
-Can go 6 rounds or table the opponent with 4 rounds
-Can handle hordes (vs. GSC, Orcs, Chaos)
-Can handle flyers (vs. Eldari, Tau, Necrons)
-Can handle Knights
-Have indirect fire (vs. Guard, AdMech, Tau)
When I have 8 special weapons slots (and I'm not running Ryza), I'd rather give my Skitarii more efficient option to bring more things to the table overall. And the actual points difference in these 8 slots is huge - 88 vs 16. It's 6 wounds and 4 HAR worth of T5 Breachers. It's 5 Fulgurites. A point short of a Dunerider. From my experience, Skitarii die no matter the Forgeworld and setup, and they do best being hidden behind a LoS-break claiming objectives with their obsec. So unless I build a specialist nuking option*, I'd rather have something to do less damage, but overall point for point more effective, claiming things for me mid-board.
* And as a matter of fact, I will bring 8 Calivers in Ryza, to ride two boats for mid ruins. But the event is next weekend and rules cut-off will not include CA, so this is the very instance where Calivers are obviously superior. Otherwise, I would be seriously torn whether I should have those 72 points free or plasma heavy Skitarii for smoking out Primaris out of their holes
Vineheart01 wrote: still dont feel like heavy grav is worth it.
The strength difference is my issue with it, even ignoring Ryza stratagem existing. For a measily 3 extra points (its actually cheaper than plasma now) you get +3 strength and proper AP. The extra damage against 2+ save targets is pretty meh given thats pretty much only TEQs, everything else with a 2+ save thats fielded have high toughness too. A lot of targets you want to remove quickly are Sv3+ atm, given primaris are everywhere.
It doesnt seem like as bad of an option now, but i still dont think i'll consider it over plasma. Upside for me though is my kataphrons are able to swap that weapon anyway so if im proven wrong, no harm to me lol
Your grav stats seem to be out a bit. Both grav and plasma are -3 ap and 1 damage. The difference comes against targets with a 3+ save, which is just about anything you’d want to take lots of wounds off. With a ryza and a strategm plasma is still better for sure, but i’ll nevr run ryza so i’m comparing them plain. The +2 str is the difference. A wound roll without increasing the plasma str you’re wounding t6 on 3, t7 on 4 and t8 on 5. Heavy grav wounds all those on 5+ but with a guaranteed 5 shots for less points and a potential for much more damage without having to spend cp.
I just dont like plasma, without the ryza benefits and strategms its just a high str high ap heavy bolter for many more points.
In practical terms though I am never not overcharging plasma - because with three sources of +1 to hit, there’s always a way. And even if I somehow couldn’t pull them all off, there’s always the chance to overcharge one and then revive one later. Yes, it costs a CP but admech has a lot of CP for this exact reason, imo. Adding +1s here and there. Meanwhile, we have a glut of S5 and S6 attacks (electropriests, skorpius mortars, robot shooting, etc) but very little at S8 or above.
Anyone have a link to the CA19 Admech wargear points pdf? I read on the Goonhammer review article that the enhanced data tether went down to one point. True? I like to add those when I have the free points to large squads of vanguard with plasma jumping out of drills and using the stratagem to increase hit rolls along with wrath of mars.
Is an infantry based horde of skitarii any viable ? Probably supported by a few onager and I really like the look of the dragoons. No duneriders or flyers or Cawl or kataphrons.
Since I discovered Contrast, a whole new world of horde armies opened to me (yeah I'm a bit late).
godardc wrote: Is an infantry based horde of skitarii any viable ? Probably supported by a few onager and I really like the look of the dragoons. No duneriders or flyers or Cawl or kataphrons.
Since I discovered Contrast, a whole new world of horde armies opened to me (yeah I'm a bit late).
I would think that infantry horde can work well, with Duneriders. Without them you’re kinda just letting the opponent get an extra turn or two of free shooting on them while slowing your own board control and threat range by a turn or two also. Footslogging is not very good this edition.
I'm pretty damn happy about our CA reductions. All stuff that is cool but too expensive is now cheaper giving me spare points to upgrade more efficient units.
godardc wrote: Is an infantry based horde of skitarii any viable ? Probably supported by a few onager and I really like the look of the dragoons. No duneriders or flyers or Cawl or kataphrons.
Since I discovered Contrast, a whole new world of horde armies opened to me (yeah I'm a bit late).
I would think that infantry horde can work well, with Duneriders. Without them you’re kinda just letting the opponent get an extra turn or two of free shooting on them while slowing your own board control and threat range by a turn or two also. Footslogging is not very good this edition.
Of course it's not for Skitarii. We lost our footslogging perks.
Heavy Support - 304 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launchers
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 383
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Suzuteo wrote: Infantry horde is not viable in general. You actually have to build your entire playstyle around being able to manage large numbers of infantry.
I really think mechanized infantry is the way to go for AdMech right now:
Heavy Support - 304 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Broad Spectrum Data-tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Smoke Launchers
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 383
HQ - 50 1x Daedalosus
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
@Suzuteo priests go in the drills or plasma goes in the drills?
ALSO, probably a good idea to move Daedalous to the Stygies detachment and an Enginseer to the Mars one so that you only have one useless guy who can’t repair anything, and one extra Mars repairman for your parking lot, no? Or are you sending the Enginseers in the drills to... repair one if it survives?
What do you guys think of Hydraulic claws on breachers and a manipulus with prime hermeticon in a Ryza detachment, alongside maybe destroyers, although I don't know if they are good as they are so glasscannon, if taking them, at which size?
In that battalion I have an enginseer for a drill and either 2x5 plasma rangers, or vanguards? Or take a full squad of 10 with edt, 3 plasmas to better use the + to hit and plasma specialist?
Especially against marines, as they seem to be the majority now?
Pomguo wrote: @Suzuteo priests go in the drills or plasma goes in the drills?
ALSO, probably a good idea to move Daedalous to the Stygies detachment and an Enginseer to the Mars one so that you only have one useless guy who can’t repair anything, and one extra Mars repairman for your parking lot, no? Or are you sending the Enginseers in the drills to... repair one if it survives?
I usually put the Fulgurites (used to be Hoplites, but CA 2019 lets me upgrade) in the Drills and infiltrate them forward to hold the midfield. I put the Calivers in them when I need to deep strike them. Usually against artillery-heavy lists that aren't going to challenge me for the midfield and instead want to just focus on bombarding me to death.
I split the HQs this way so I would have one less drop when stuff one each into the Drills.
Alkaline_Hound wrote: So uhm, if my list is heavy on kataphrons and other special infantry like the priests and sneaky boys, then how many models will I need for a 2k list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS has anyone of you tried converting the transport tank? If so how did it look?
I've seen a 3d model in Thingiverse thats a Dunerider on Dunecrawler legs that looks really cool as a conversion.
Anyone have a link to the leg conversion file? I'd love to kitbash that up.
Also, not sure if this picture has been posted yet:
Spoiler:
Seems like the front guns might be Phosphor Blasters.
Alkaline_Hound wrote: So uhm, if my list is heavy on kataphrons and other special infantry like the priests and sneaky boys, then how many models will I need for a 2k list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS has anyone of you tried converting the transport tank? If so how did it look?
I've seen a 3d model in Thingiverse thats a Dunerider on Dunecrawler legs that looks really cool as a conversion.
Anyone have a link to the leg conversion file? I'd love to kitbash that up.
Also, not sure if this picture has been posted yet:
Spoiler:
Seems like the front guns might be Phosphor Blasters.
Here’s the link on Thingiverse. I saved it in case I ever get around to buying a 3D printer for modeling conversions.
So on a more unrelated question... I know that asking this in general is most likely not answerable, but I dont want to dive into list discussion here on rnd non-tourney lists
At what point level do you guys usually switch over to 2 Battalions or even a Brigade?
When do additional CP outweigh the addition of more firepower like Skorpius and Onagers?
Thairne wrote: So on a more unrelated question... I know that asking this in general is most likely not answerable, but I dont want to dive into list discussion here on rnd non-tourney lists
At what point level do you guys usually switch over to 2 Battalions or even a Brigade?
When do additional CP outweigh the addition of more firepower like Skorpius and Onagers?
I run one battalion at 1000 and smaller games and switch to two Battalions at 1500 points. Two Battalions works better for most armies than a Brigade in my opinion, especially with Admech as three separate Fast Attack units is generally not feasible or desirable.
If you are building tourney, it's hard to justify Ironstriders now that Fists bolter spam exists. That means Brigade is out of the question. Furthermore if you do do Brigade, it probably is either Mars, Stygies, or Mixed, which reduces versatility.
Maybe if the rumored new flying infantry are Sicarians in the Fast Attack slot?
Suzuteo wrote: The Kharon Walker has one set too many legs IMO.
If you are building tourney, it's hard to justify Ironstriders now that Fists bolter spam exists. That means Brigade is out of the question. Furthermore if you do do Brigade, it probably is either Mars, Stygies, or Mixed, which reduces versatility.
Maybe if the rumored new flying infantry are Sicarians in the Fast Attack slot?
Yeah, the Kharon Walker would look better with just the 6 side legs (skip the 2 on the back side).
Also, we really need a fast attack option that isn't the Ironstrider/Dragoon model. I had not heard about this rumored flying Sicarian, but that would be a welcome addition!
The rumor is stemmed from the Rumormill very mechanicus-looking wing. It doesnt match the flier we got a moment ago at all, and its design follows usual ranger-sized model design not big vehicles. So lot of us (myself included) are hoping for some kind of gargoyle like thing to show up that counts as our jumppack models. And of course it would make sense for it to be FA, both because we are painfully lacking that slot and why would a jumping unit not be FA? edit: this thing https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/05/the-rumour-engine-november-5th-2019/
Don't forget there's that skitarii looking lever action in the holster that was also previewed. I'm assuming it's some sort of jetpack style harassment unit, a scout unit, or perhaps something intended to assassinate things. That or it's a third unit, but unless it's the skitarii alpha we've been asking for since skitarii dropped, who knows what it could be
i cant imagine theres yet another unannounced unit for admech but then again i was not expecting the flier at all so.... no idea what could come next.
Someone at GW loves admech lately.
Pomguo wrote: @Suzuteo priests go in the drills or plasma goes in the drills?
ALSO, probably a good idea to move Daedalous to the Stygies detachment and an Enginseer to the Mars one so that you only have one useless guy who can’t repair anything, and one extra Mars repairman for your parking lot, no? Or are you sending the Enginseers in the drills to... repair one if it survives?
I usually put the Fulgurites (used to be Hoplites, but CA 2019 lets me upgrade) in the Drills and infiltrate them forward to hold the midfield. I put the Calivers in them when I need to deep strike them. Usually against artillery-heavy lists that aren't going to challenge me for the midfield and instead want to just focus on bombarding me to death.
I split the HQs this way so I would have one less drop when stuff one each into the Drills.
Ah, you were thinking of driops. Our national ITC series is likely switching to 100% full deployment for every mission in 2020 so I haven’t been thinking like that lately.
Possible (hopfully) that 5 transport is stock and the actual Transport variant has more space. 5 transport? in an admech army? unless you can move kataphrons....the heck can we do that would be of any threat to justify not taking the heavy armaments version? Theres no way a unit of 5 vangaurds with 2 plasmas is a better move than whatever big guns that gunship variant is gonna have (or bombs in the bomb variant)
Vineheart01 wrote: Possible (hopfully) that 5 transport is stock and the actual Transport variant has more space.
5 transport? in an admech army? unless you can move kataphrons....the heck can we do that would be of any threat to justify not taking the heavy armaments version? Theres no way a unit of 5 vangaurds with 2 plasmas is a better move than whatever big guns that gunship variant is gonna have (or bombs in the bomb variant)
I already made mention of Rustalkers as an option, but until transport rules for melee units get better what good is that for?
Vineheart01 wrote: i cant imagine theres yet another unannounced unit for admech but then again i was not expecting the flier at all so.... no idea what could come next.
Someone at GW loves admech lately.
It's not "lately". The "lately" part is because we're finally seeing production capabilities open up, seemingly.
Vineheart01 wrote: i cant imagine theres yet another unannounced unit for admech but then again i was not expecting the flier at all so.... no idea what could come next.
Someone at GW loves admech lately.
It's not "lately". The "lately" part is because we're finally seeing production capabilities open up, seemingly.
i mean, were the faction (barring new codex ones) that got the most releases this year after space marines... luckily the power-armored dudes are the only thing people are complaining about.
Since i started playing in september 2018 we got : Manipulus, Daedalosus, Skorpius x2 and now were getting Flyers x3 and probably one more unit according to the rumor engine. And all these units were super strong and changed how admech was played.
Vineheart01 wrote: Possible (hopfully) that 5 transport is stock and the actual Transport variant has more space.
5 transport? in an admech army? unless you can move kataphrons....the heck can we do that would be of any threat to justify not taking the heavy armaments version? Theres no way a unit of 5 vangaurds with 2 plasmas is a better move than whatever big guns that gunship variant is gonna have (or bombs in the bomb variant)
The gunship might have a 5 transport capacity...but I'm, personally, thinking that a shakeup with how Skitarii squads are organized might be coming.
I would not be shocked at all if the 'wings' belong to a Secutarii unit from GW. It's rather interesting that the Dunerider calls Secutarii out as able to ride in it, eh?
Vineheart01 wrote: i cant imagine theres yet another unannounced unit for admech but then again i was not expecting the flier at all so.... no idea what could come next.
Someone at GW loves admech lately.
It's not "lately". The "lately" part is because we're finally seeing production capabilities open up, seemingly.
i mean, were the faction (barring new codex ones) that got the most releases this year after space marines... luckily the power-armored dudes are the only thing people are complaining about.
Since i started playing in september 2018 we got : Manipulus, Daedalosus, Skorpius x2 and now were getting Flyers x3 and probably one more unit according to the rumor engine. And all these units were super strong and changed how admech was played.
I believe GSC got more in that time, but it’s probably pretty close.
@Kanluwen: the transport specifically names Secutarii because if it just said “<FORGE WORLD> INFANTRY” then neither Secutarii unit could embark upon it, as they don’t belong to any forge world. It’s just pure compatibility stuff, same wording as the Drill.
I can’t seem to find it despite thinking I’d seen it lately - does anyone have a link to the full points changes for units, weapons, and wargear? Trying to build a list to play CA2019 points this weekend.
Yeah its specifically the out of codex releases weve been getting that makes me intrigued.
Usually you get 1-2 if any at all. Counting variants of the same kit and the unknown one we know is still coming, we got...7 Thats a lot. Especially for a codex as light as ours on choices. And none of them have been garbage releases...*cough, knock on wood* unlike the ork buggies. Pretty bad release when of the 6 the only one used at all is the Wartrike and purely because of the charge aura...
It's pretty easy to tell just by looking at the points. But then again, people always complain. I remember that some people were irate over the Grator not having an invulnerable save. But no other faction gets that much firepower on a T7 W12 body with M12" that ignores penalties for only 111 points. Even the S8 gun, which I thought was not going to be popular, put them at the same efficiency as a pre-nerf Calladius, only with better durability in exchange for the other tank's Fly and the charge debuff.
My prediction is that only one of the flyer's variants will be usable, but none will be competitive. Fact is, a lot of armies have ways to deal with flyers, everything that these flyers can do is probably covered, and we need Fast Attack slots for Brigade, not the Flyer slot.
Suzuteo wrote: It's pretty easy to tell just by looking at the points. But then again, people always complain. I remember that some people were irate over the Grator not having an invulnerable save. But no other faction gets that much firepower on a T7 W12 body with M12" that ignores penalties for only 111 points. Even the S8 gun, which I thought was not going to be popular, put them at the same efficiency as a pre-nerf Calladius, only with better durability in exchange for the other tank's Fly and the charge debuff.
My prediction is that only one of the flyer's variants will be usable, but none will be competitive. Fact is, a lot of armies have ways to deal with flyers, everything that these flyers can do is probably covered, and we need Fast Attack slots for Brigade, not the Flyer slot.
jump pack/wing infantry is always a fast attack choice no? so the scourges we're gonna get will probably let us get a better brigade than running 3 single sydonians
he meant the flier filling a slot we didnt really need.
Fliers arent needed for any formation so theyre purely for whatever role they do. Unfortunately because of how ridiculous eldar fliers are everyone has answers for them.
Im having a hard time deciphering what it could do our tank/crawler/robots cant do.
Vineheart01 wrote: he meant the flier filling a slot we didnt really need.
Fliers arent needed for any formation so theyre purely for whatever role they do. Unfortunately because of how ridiculous eldar fliers are everyone has answers for them.
Im having a hard time deciphering what it could do our tank/crawler/robots cant do.
well the transport could reach the enemy backline for a turn 2 disembark (or emergency disembark when it gets blown up).
In ITC they will let us grab recon easily and thats pretty much it.
moveblock with a flier is pretty difficult. Really the only reliable way to do that now is to have it hug something you know your opponent wants to charge, since they have to go around it when trying to get within 1" of the model you are sitting in front of.
That isnt easy. I run dakkajets and wazboms alot as orks and i very, very often try to do that to stop a unit from getting at my SSAG or supakannon wagons, but in doing so i'd be forced to fly off the board next turn. The archaeopter probably has hover though so it would be far easier to pull off for them at least, but you still have the 90 degree turn limitation to get into that position.. It would be vulnerable for a turn, but that'd be worth it if it meant your robots werent in combat for a turn either.
Blocking might prove quite handy with the incoming Nids&BA book though. Won't work on BAs, but move-blocking even faster Nids is always a welcomed addition.
As for the Flier itself, I can imagine dropping tons of MSUs all over the place, with Duneriders and Archeos, if the plane is cheap enough and has grav-chute rule. Quite honestly, I'm ready to trade higher capacity for grav-chute, but I'm writing it from ETC perspective where table control is king. The cost will play the part as well.
A quality buff for Skitarii would be a necessity though to make things click. Currentyly our book is supposed to be written around the infantry choices, especially light infantry with specialist weapons, but (unless Breachers spam lists) they seem to be rather a support choices for straight out better HS/FA units. I doubt we can have such an update in PA book, although I'd really welcome it.
dadamowsky wrote: Blocking might prove quite handy with the incoming Nids&BA book though. Won't work on BAs, but move-blocking even faster Nids is always a welcomed addition.
As for the Flier itself, I can imagine dropping tons of MSUs all over the place, with Duneriders and Archeos, if the plane is cheap enough and has grav-chute rule. Quite honestly, I'm ready to trade higher capacity for grav-chute, but I'm writing it from ETC perspective where table control is king. The cost will play the part as well.
A quality buff for Skitarii would be a necessity though to make things click. Currentyly our book is supposed to be written around the infantry choices, especially light infantry with specialist weapons, but (unless Breachers spam lists) they seem to be rather a support choices for straight out better HS/FA units. I doubt we can have such an update in PA book, although I'd really welcome it.
I agree with you, one thing I had in mind is a canticles buff, which our troops benefit more from as they are either in melee, or not in bubble range.
So a welcomed change would be shroudpsalm to stack with cover, having skitarii with a 2+ safe as I dont like the whole lot of rolling for a 6+++
If I were to redesign Canticles, I would make them like Combat Doctrines.
1 - Reroll failed Morale
2 - +1S in fighting
3 - Reroll 1s to hit in fighting
4 - Cover in the open
5 - Reroll 1s to hit in shooting
6 - Reroll 1s to wound in shooting
At the start of every round, you may pick ONLY from the Canticle above or below the previous round's Canticle. Or you can roll for a Canticle at random. You may pick any Canticle you'd like on Round 1.
The idea is to buff Canticles but to make them more strategic. You are limited in what you can pick, but also rewarded for picking by allowing you to use the strategems: Gloria Mechanicus is now a way to quickly shift up or down. Divine Chorus is to repick a previously picked Canticle.
HI all, considering an AdMech force (again, I had this same impulse last year lol), and was wondering if a heavy-mech force is viable?
I'm talking about using Kataphron (breachers? destroyers?) as a bulk of my troops options, with robots and tanks. Admech monster mash, in effect.
And no souping, at least not with space marines or IG. I was tempted by a sisters detachment, or throwing in an Inquisitor and some assassins, but mostly just AdMech.
Niiru wrote: HI all, considering an AdMech force (again, I had this same impulse last year lol), and was wondering if a heavy-mech force is viable?
I'm talking about using Kataphron (breachers? destroyers?) as a bulk of my troops options, with robots and tanks. Admech monster mash, in effect.
And no souping, at least not with space marines or IG. I was tempted by a sisters detachment, or throwing in an Inquisitor and some assassins, but mostly just AdMech.
How would you?
pretty much any build of admech is viable, but kataphrons (breachers as hard to kill meatslabs, plasma destroyers as "NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED") backed up with tanks is good.
Something like this as a core :
Manipulus
Dominus
3x breachers
3x breachers
6x plasma destroyers
4x servitors
3x belleros skorpius
would be a good start, form there you can basically add anything to your army (except ruststalkers because theyre the only bad unit we have right now)
Niiru wrote: HI all, considering an AdMech force (again, I had this same impulse last year lol), and was wondering if a heavy-mech force is viable?
I'm talking about using Kataphron (breachers? destroyers?) as a bulk of my troops options, with robots and tanks. Admech monster mash, in effect.
And no souping, at least not with space marines or IG. I was tempted by a sisters detachment, or throwing in an Inquisitor and some assassins, but mostly just AdMech.
How would you?
it is certainly doable. how competative this is is another matter.
My 1750 points list for a game I had the other weekend. probably want to add somthing like several skorpius to take it up to 2k?
downside to a kata-heavy list is $$$ - off hand, i'd say theyre our most expensive model atm.
Thats probably the only reason they havnt been nerfed as the absolute insane levels of spam with them isnt seen due to $$$ problems.
Vineheart01 wrote: downside to a kata-heavy list is $$$ - off hand, i'd say theyre our most expensive model atm.
Thats probably the only reason they havnt been nerfed as the absolute insane levels of spam with them isnt seen due to $$$ problems.
the most expensive model ($/pts) is the skorpius dunerider i think, it used to be dragoons.
I'd love to make a cybernetica list but kataphrons are just too damn expens$ive for me to invest in 30+ of them.
Niiru wrote: HI all, considering an AdMech force (again, I had this same impulse last year lol), and was wondering if a heavy-mech force is viable?
I'm talking about using Kataphron (breachers? destroyers?) as a bulk of my troops options, with robots and tanks. Admech monster mash, in effect.
And no souping, at least not with space marines or IG. I was tempted by a sisters detachment, or throwing in an Inquisitor and some assassins, but mostly just AdMech.
How would you?
pretty much any build of admech is viable, but kataphrons (breachers as hard to kill meatslabs, plasma destroyers as "NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED") backed up with tanks is good.
Something like this as a core :
Manipulus
Dominus
3x breachers
3x breachers
6x plasma destroyers
4x servitors
3x belleros skorpius
would be a good start, form there you can basically add anything to your army (except ruststalkers because theyre the only bad unit we have right now)
I'm curious, why servitors? I thought they were pretty terrible, as units go?
My main concern with Kataphron, is that they're elite (expensive) units that are designed to be shooty... but they have a fairly abysmal BS (and WS). Though I guess the newish model that gives you a +1 to hit against a single enemy unit can help with that a little. Are there any other ways to help counter that 50/50 hit chance? (probably more like a 5+ against most armies out there these days)
Niiru wrote: HI all, considering an AdMech force (again, I had this same impulse last year lol), and was wondering if a heavy-mech force is viable?
I'm talking about using Kataphron (breachers? destroyers?) as a bulk of my troops options, with robots and tanks. Admech monster mash, in effect.
And no souping, at least not with space marines or IG. I was tempted by a sisters detachment, or throwing in an Inquisitor and some assassins, but mostly just AdMech.
How would you?
pretty much any build of admech is viable, but kataphrons (breachers as hard to kill meatslabs, plasma destroyers as "NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED") backed up with tanks is good.
Something like this as a core :
Manipulus
Dominus
3x breachers
3x breachers
6x plasma destroyers
4x servitors
3x belleros skorpius
would be a good start, form there you can basically add anything to your army (except ruststalkers because theyre the only bad unit we have right now)
I'm curious, why servitors? I thought they were pretty terrible, as units go?
My main concern with Kataphron, is that they're elite (expensive) units that are designed to be shooty... but they have a fairly abysmal BS (and WS). Though I guess the newish model that gives you a +1 to hit against a single enemy unit can help with that a little. Are there any other ways to help counter that 50/50 hit chance? (probably more like a 5+ against most armies out there these days)
basic servitors arent meant to do anything except fill space in your backfield... Thats what non-admech servitors do
Admech however has access to a really strong specialist detachment, the servitor maniple.
It gives all your servitors and tech priest dominus access to new stuff.
Warlord trait : At the end of your movement, sacrifice a servitor to heal/RESSURECT a kataphron
Relic: some axe im guessing, never used it.
Stratagems :
1 cp : Noospheric mind lock (+1 to hit to a unit of kataphrons that is beside a dominus)
1cp : enhanced bionics (give a 5++ pregame to a unit of kataphrons, spammable)
so you take your squad of 4 basic servitors and as long as you get to reanimate 1 kataphron, they were worth their price.
Kataphron breachers arent meant to be shooty(although they are). their main job is to sit on objectives, in cover and eat a ton of firepower (W3, T5, 2+).
Kataphon destroyers are expensive but they will vaporize anything you point them at. Just make sure to find a way to protect them if you dont have first turn (i usually hide 6 in a ruin or behind a wall of skorpius so the enemy cant shoot at them, theyll probably get only 1 shooting phase, but they will buy back their points. You give them +1 to hit with noospheric mind lock, +1 to wound and damage with plasma specialists (and +! to hit with daedalosus but only against 1 unit). You can even add some kastellans to your list for elimination volley if you really need to.
this means that you have 6d6 shots, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's, S8 -3, D3 with a +1 to wound.
You wound knights on a 3+ and regular vehicles on a 2+.
This pretty much lets you make one of each kit for $90 plus some cost for materials (ABS plastic, maybe some antenna bits).
A part of me hopes the Thopters are bad just so I don't have to buy 3+ of them...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VladimirHerzog wrote: basic servitors arent meant to do anything except fill space in your backfield... Thats what non-admech servitors do
Admech however has access to a really strong specialist detachment, the servitor maniple.
It gives all your servitors and tech priest dominus access to new stuff.
Warlord trait : At the end of your movement, sacrifice a servitor to heal/RESSURECT a kataphron
Relic: some axe im guessing, never used it.
Stratagems :
1 cp : Noospheric mind lock (+1 to hit to a unit of kataphrons that is beside a dominus)
1cp : enhanced bionics (give a 5++ pregame to a unit of kataphrons, spammable)
so you take your squad of 4 basic servitors and as long as you get to reanimate 1 kataphron, they were worth their price.
Kataphron breachers arent meant to be shooty(although they are). their main job is to sit on objectives, in cover and eat a ton of firepower (W3, T5, 2+).
Kataphon destroyers are expensive but they will vaporize anything you point them at. Just make sure to find a way to protect them if you dont have first turn (i usually hide 6 in a ruin or behind a wall of skorpius so the enemy cant shoot at them, theyll probably get only 1 shooting phase, but they will buy back their points. You give them +1 to hit with noospheric mind lock, +1 to wound and damage with plasma specialists (and +! to hit with daedalosus but only against 1 unit). You can even add some kastellans to your list for elimination volley if you really need to.
this means that you have 6d6 shots, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's, S8 -3, D3 with a +1 to wound.
You wound knights on a 3+ and regular vehicles on a 2+.
Adding to this, note that you can repair your Breachers twice per turn if you resurrect one. This is because the repair is limited per model. So you just repair, resurrect, then repair the resurrected model. The idea behind the list is to control midfield by just filling it with Kataphrons. They have great defensive stats for the price, decent shooting, objective secured with large bases, and with Prime Hermeticon, they fight decently too.
i should really do that. I often find myself wanting to use the dunerider but that scorpius is way too important. Need to find some cheapo rhino chassis. Or...just print them off...not like i play in tournaments anyway.
Also in terms of expensive i more meant how many you need. Yeah the dunerider is easily the most expensive and striders are up there too but you arent going to run ~20-25 of them like you would a kata-spam list lol.
This pretty much lets you make one of each kit for $90 plus some cost for materials (ABS plastic, maybe some antenna bits).
A part of me hopes the Thopters are bad just so I don't have to buy 3+ of them...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VladimirHerzog wrote: basic servitors arent meant to do anything except fill space in your backfield... Thats what non-admech servitors do
Admech however has access to a really strong specialist detachment, the servitor maniple.
It gives all your servitors and tech priest dominus access to new stuff.
Warlord trait : At the end of your movement, sacrifice a servitor to heal/RESSURECT a kataphron
Relic: some axe im guessing, never used it.
Stratagems :
1 cp : Noospheric mind lock (+1 to hit to a unit of kataphrons that is beside a dominus)
1cp : enhanced bionics (give a 5++ pregame to a unit of kataphrons, spammable)
so you take your squad of 4 basic servitors and as long as you get to reanimate 1 kataphron, they were worth their price.
Kataphron breachers arent meant to be shooty(although they are). their main job is to sit on objectives, in cover and eat a ton of firepower (W3, T5, 2+).
Kataphon destroyers are expensive but they will vaporize anything you point them at. Just make sure to find a way to protect them if you dont have first turn (i usually hide 6 in a ruin or behind a wall of skorpius so the enemy cant shoot at them, theyll probably get only 1 shooting phase, but they will buy back their points. You give them +1 to hit with noospheric mind lock, +1 to wound and damage with plasma specialists (and +! to hit with daedalosus but only against 1 unit). You can even add some kastellans to your list for elimination volley if you really need to.
this means that you have 6d6 shots, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's, S8 -3, D3 with a +1 to wound.
You wound knights on a 3+ and regular vehicles on a 2+.
Adding to this, note that you can repair your Breachers twice per turn if you resurrect one. This is because the repair is limited per model. So you just repair, resurrect, then repair the resurrected model.
Reaally good job there! I actually planned to turn my tanks from hover- into walker-, kind of like the dunestrider only bigger. I have a 3D printer (evil, I know) so I'll probably only have to buy one or two kits for the important parts and I can do much the same as you did.
Walker mech army sounds fun to me anyway!
My current army is a chaos list, with lord discordant and helbrutes and terminators. If AdMech had a lord-discordant style HQ option I'd probably change permanently haha.
Does AdMech have an equivalent of Emp.Children blender terminators? (guaranteed charge from deepstrike, lots of attacks, glass cannons (although not that glassy))
I had an idea lately, what if we used a big 12 man Ryza Plasmaphron unit and hide them behind a brick wall of disintegrators and duneriders/ drills, although 3 disintegrators should be plenty for that.
Why dont we see them as often lately although they are now easily hideable?
Niiru wrote: HI all, considering an AdMech force (again, I had this same impulse last year lol), and was wondering if a heavy-mech force is viable?
I'm talking about using Kataphron (breachers? destroyers?) as a bulk of my troops options, with robots and tanks. Admech monster mash, in effect.
And no souping, at least not with space marines or IG. I was tempted by a sisters detachment, or throwing in an Inquisitor and some assassins, but mostly just AdMech.
How would you?
The most important question is: what kind of enviroment are you going to play in?
It's quite important, as Admech can bring a wide variety of lists, and most units are viable in some way but... there's no one cookie-cutter that will cover everything. This is not SM. ITC or ETC, or house missions, or whatnot - each format has a specific set of challenges that Admech has totake into consideration. ITC is very much about killing power for instance, it is possible to bring FWs (meaning Drills and Hoplites). ETC is very much about table control, and FW is (mostly) forbidden. Kataphrons spam might have been good to amazing in ITC but they are really too slow in ETC, struggling to grab the objectives to score Maelstorms and Eternals. What counts as waste or giving up VPs in ITC (so lots of infantry with obsec) is actually desirable in ETC, as you have to take those markers. But on small tables and small points (48x48), where ranges are shorter and you are placing your markers down, Breachers can actually be spammed again.
Everything is in the context you know
Automatically Appended Next Post:
0XFallen wrote: I had an idea lately, what if we used a big 12 man Ryza Plasmaphron unit and hide them behind a brick wall of disintegrators and duneriders/ drills, although 3 disintegrators should be plenty for that.
Why dont we see them as often lately although they are now easily hideable?
Because when even some ruins are too small to hide 12 Kataphrons then it's hard for any realistic amount of Skorpius to completely hide every single one of them either . The back slope might show the Kataphron part for instance, or a space below the drill tip. 2,5"x12 bases footprint is a nightmare to wield.
Niiru wrote: HI all, considering an AdMech force (again, I had this same impulse last year lol), and was wondering if a heavy-mech force is viable?
I'm talking about using Kataphron (breachers? destroyers?) as a bulk of my troops options, with robots and tanks. Admech monster mash, in effect.
And no souping, at least not with space marines or IG. I was tempted by a sisters detachment, or throwing in an Inquisitor and some assassins, but mostly just AdMech.
How would you?
The most important question is: what kind of enviroment are you going to play in?
It's quite important, as Admech can bring a wide variety of lists, and most units are viable in some way but... there's no one cookie-cutter that will cover everything. This is not SM. ITC or ETC, or house missions, or whatnot - each format has a specific set of challenges that Admech has totake into consideration. ITC is very much about killing power for instance, it is possible to bring FWs (meaning Drills and Hoplites). ETC is very much about table control, and FW is (mostly) forbidden. Kataphrons spam might have been good to amazing in ITC but they are really too slow in ETC, struggling to grab the objectives to score Maelstorms and Eternals. What counts as waste or giving up VPs in ITC (so lots of infantry with obsec) is actually desirable in ETC, as you have to take those markers. But on small tables and small points (48x48), where ranges are shorter and you are placing your markers down, Breachers can actually be spammed again.
Everything is in the context you know
Ahh, I am only a friendly casual gamer, no tournaments for me. When I say I want something to be good, I just meant I don't want to get turn-1 obliterated by my friends. I'd like to put up a decent fight. But I avoid spamming units, and I avoid cheese, just personal preference but I don't find powergaming (intentionally) much fun.
I like big robots and daemon-engines and scary things (that are usually expensive in points, but if they are lucky enough to survive they can put in the murder). Hence my Chaos list having a discordant + his pet maulerfiend, a Prince, a plasmafist contemptor, terminators.. that kind of ilk.
0XFallen wrote: I had an idea lately, what if we used a big 12 man Ryza Plasmaphron unit and hide them behind a brick wall of disintegrators and duneriders/ drills, although 3 disintegrators should be plenty for that.
Why dont we see them as often lately although they are now easily hideable?
Because hiding them behind Skorpius is lot harder than it sounds. Also, stuff like knights and planes have an annoying habit of seeing them by looking over the tanks, or stuff like artillery just not caring period.
Ahh, I am only a friendly casual gamer, no tournaments for me. When I say I want something to be good, I just meant I don't want to get turn-1 obliterated by my friends. I'd like to put up a decent fight. But I avoid spamming units, and I avoid cheese, just personal preference but I don't find powergaming (intentionally) much fun.
I like big robots and daemon-engines and scary things (that are usually expensive in points, but if they are lucky enough to survive they can put in the murder). Hence my Chaos list having a discordant + his pet maulerfiend, a Prince, a plasmafist contemptor, terminators.. that kind of ilk.
Then most if not all units can be played with pleasure. The vast majority of Admech codex is currently decently priced, and decently viable in friendly games. If your friends are like mine, meaning "yeah yeah we play friendly today *brings a porno netlist afterward*" then you might need a bit of more thoughtful picking .
The usual admechy way to go is to build around Cawl for his rerolls in the Shooting phase, with Kastelans and Onagers (and lately Desintegrators). Kataphrons are also viable here, albeit a bit tricky to use due to low mobility. You also should bring something to counter-charge, as people will want to charge or tag you - if you don't mind fielding FW range, Hoplites are OK. Fulgurites and Corspucarii are very good at the new points price. Heck, after recent drops even Ruststalkers can be a viable (and cheap) counter-charge force (and look godly on the table).
I'm experimenting with a more mechanized list right now. Meaning a lot of transports with Infantry on board, with Dragoons combat support. It's not as static as typical Cawl's Castle and allows to grab objectives on the table (so rulebook/CA missions, both Maelstorm and Eternals, are way easier to score) although its raw shooting power is considerably worse in comparison.
Unfortunately, the footslogging infantry spam is not really a way to go. Survivability tools are spread among 3 mutually excluding <FW> keywords: Stygies, Graia, and Lucius; and apart from these dogmas or Shroudpsalm, there is no real way to get those guys into ranges before they get shot off the table. Maybe Metalica, but no shooting penalty after additional ~3" of movement from Advancing is nothing to be crazy about. A pitty, relentlessly marching troops of cyborgs would be very cool tematically for Admech. If Skitarii could stack AP ignoring like SoBs can, or Metalica was an auto-Advance on 6" and the current effect (including Heavy weapons as House Raven does) it might be a way to go.
Does AdMech have an equivalent of Emp.Children blender terminators? (guaranteed charge from deepstrike, lots of attacks, glass cannons (although not that glassy))
guaranteed from deepstrike, no.
BUT we do have the ability to make basically any non-kataphron infantry connect on turn 1 if the opponent deploys too close to us.
I usually like to do it with fulgurites since they become a huge distraction carnifex if they manage to get their 3++.
Put 10 priests in a skorpius (or 12 in a drill).
When you deploy the transport, pay 1 cp to infiltrate them.
before the first turn, move up 9" with the transport.
Disembark your priests, giving you a bit less than 4" movement.
Advance a manipulus near them to buff their movement.
Have the priests walk up 6"+1".
Have the transport follow them (so it can charge and soak up overwatch for the priests.
Do the charge.
This gives your priests a movement of (9"+ 3" + 6" + 1") ~19", meaning you only need a 5" charge to make it to the enemy if they deployed right against their deployment.
Alternatively, infiltrate dragoons to give them the same 19" of movement but with less support needed.
0XFallen wrote: I had an idea lately, what if we used a big 12 man Ryza Plasmaphron unit and hide them behind a brick wall of disintegrators and duneriders/ drills, although 3 disintegrators should be plenty for that.
Why dont we see them as often lately although they are now easily hideable?
Because hiding them behind Skorpius is lot harder than it sounds. Also, stuff like knights and planes have an annoying habit of seeing them by looking over the tanks, or stuff like artillery just not caring period.
My local gaming club is starting a escalation league (starts at 500pts), im thinking about starting with this list.
Never played Admech before so need advice before i start building.
Araablane wrote: My local gaming club is starting a escalation league (starts at 500pts), im thinking about starting with this list.
Never played Admech before so need advice before i start building.
Ahh, I am only a friendly casual gamer, no tournaments for me. When I say I want something to be good, I just meant I don't want to get turn-1 obliterated by my friends. I'd like to put up a decent fight. But I avoid spamming units, and I avoid cheese, just personal preference but I don't find powergaming (intentionally) much fun.
I like big robots and daemon-engines and scary things (that are usually expensive in points, but if they are lucky enough to survive they can put in the murder). Hence my Chaos list having a discordant + his pet maulerfiend, a Prince, a plasmafist contemptor, terminators.. that kind of ilk.
Then most if not all units can be played with pleasure. The vast majority of Admech codex is currently decently priced, and decently viable in friendly games. If your friends are like mine, meaning "yeah yeah we play friendly today *brings a porno netlist afterward*" then you might need a bit of more thoughtful picking .
The usual admechy way to go is to build around Cawl for his rerolls in the Shooting phase, with Kastelans and Onagers (and lately Desintegrators). Kataphrons are also viable here, albeit a bit tricky to use due to low mobility. You also should bring something to counter-charge, as people will want to charge or tag you - if you don't mind fielding FW range, Hoplites are OK. Fulgurites and Corspucarii are very good at the new points price. Heck, after recent drops even Ruststalkers can be a viable (and cheap) counter-charge force (and look godly on the table).
I'm experimenting with a more mechanized list right now. Meaning a lot of transports with Infantry on board, with Dragoons combat support. It's not as static as typical Cawl's Castle and allows to grab objectives on the table (so rulebook/CA missions, both Maelstorm and Eternals, are way easier to score) although its raw shooting power is considerably worse in comparison.
Unfortunately, the footslogging infantry spam is not really a way to go. Survivability tools are spread among 3 mutually excluding <FW> keywords: Stygies, Graia, and Lucius; and apart from these dogmas or Shroudpsalm, there is no real way to get those guys into ranges before they get shot off the table. Maybe Metalica, but no shooting penalty after additional ~3" of movement from Advancing is nothing to be crazy about. A pitty, relentlessly marching troops of cyborgs would be very cool tematically for Admech. If Skitarii could stack AP ignoring like SoBs can, or Metalica was an auto-Advance on 6" and the current effect (including Heavy weapons as House Raven does) it might be a way to go.
Really great breakdown, thanks!
Unfortunately (for me) the reason I ended up not joining the AdMech ranks last year, was because I didn't want to play with Cawl. And back then... Cawl was pretty much the only choice!
Now that there's a few more HQ's available (no special named ones, but still) I thought I'd give it a go. Lucius was always my favorite, and I think it would work ok.
Eh theres 1 more named character and he's pretty shweet, to the point of being imo kinda mandatory. But, unlike Cawl, hes 50pts and not forgeworld locked (also doesnt benefit from forgeworlds). You can easily kitbash him from a ranger and some antenna bits.
Daedalosus is a character from Blackstone Fortress. You can easily find his rules online via google. I just call him Dr. D. Unless you can find it at a good price DO NOT buy the official model. Its going for like 40USD right now lol. For literally a Ranger with some extra shinies on him.
I wouldn't rely on characters that much in the current meta. Eliminators and Korvidari shreds any, and I mean any, character from Admech book (or related). I actually wonder if there's a way to build a non-character dependant Admech, that doesn't lose that much firepower or options coming from our chars.
RG successors that can reroll one hit roll and one wound roll per unit is just stupidly good. RG supplement is most probably the worst as well, as (unless they're matching other scout heavy SM army) they cage entire army in the deployment, wreck any characters without LoS, pack melee Alpha Strikes turn 1 with tons of great combat coming from Invictors and Assault Devs redeployed along the Smash Cap, without any risk or counterplay. GW has dropped the ball on all Marines, but this one supplement... is not OP, it is just broken IMO.
dadamowsky wrote: I wouldn't rely on characters that much in the current meta. Eliminators and Korvidari shreds any, and I mean any, character from Admech book (or related). I actually wonder if there's a way to build a non-character dependant Admech, that doesn't lose that much firepower or options coming from our chars.
RG successors that can reroll one hit roll and one wound roll per unit is just stupidly good. RG supplement is most probably the worst as well, as (unless they're matching other scout heavy SM army) they cage entire army in the deployment, wreck any characters without LoS, pack melee Alpha Strikes turn 1 with tons of great combat coming from Invictors and Assault Devs redeployed along the Smash Cap, without any risk or counterplay. GW has dropped the ball on all Marines, but this one supplement... is not OP, it is just broken IMO.
Honestly I wouldn’t rely on comparisons to the most broken Marine builds in the current meta. It’s just defeatist. I’m designing my lists to play well against non-marines for now and waiting for our buffs and/or their nerfs.
Araablane wrote: My local gaming club is starting a escalation league (starts at 500pts), im thinking about starting with this list.
Never played Admech before so need advice before i start building.
0XFallen wrote: Any has a short summary on which SM units to focus and or look out for? And maybe why?
It would depend entirely on the Chapter. And your list.
If you are playing mechanized like me: For every SM list, you have to kill the Scouts and Invictors to seize the midboard. Without control, it is tough to claim Recon and access objectives easily. TFCs should also be killed if possible, since they kill your Skitarii after they disembark.
For Iron Hands, take out the Stormtalons, as they are mobile and can wear away at your army. Try to keep the Dreadnoughts tied up in melee. Don't even bother trying to kill Repulsors. It's a huge waste of resources. Once you clear everything else, just play hide and seek. Force them to give up Grinding Advance whenever possible.
For Fists, you need to kill as many Intercessors as you can before they get in range to kill your vehicles with volume bolter fire.
For RG and WS, you need to be defensive and watch out for Assault Centurions. They have lots of tricks to deep strike, redploy, advance and charge, etc. Smash Captains are also a thing, but they are pretty easy to kill with a counter-charger such as Fulgurites; he will probably pop a tank though.
Ultramarines are very versatile (a nice way to say everyone else seems to do something better), but as a general rule, whatever is standing next to Rowboat is what the other guy thinks is dangerous.
Cawlstar operates on a similar principle. Just play defensively until you can kill most of the Marines with Dakkabot fire, then push out to capture the bonus objective or table him. (Good luck though. It becomes their game to lose.)
Araablane wrote: My local gaming club is starting a escalation league (starts at 500pts), im thinking about starting with this list.
Never played Admech before so need advice before i start building.
In summary, keyword selections have to be represented WYSIWYG. So you cannot have a unit of multi-colored models being the same chapter; you cannot have two models of the same color be different chapters. All the new Marine players seemed to have caused this problem for all of us.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Heavy Support - 306 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
Total: 1996 points 13 CP
Still 13 drops. Multiple configurations for the transport loadouts. One Boat with Rangers just to grab objectives. Would like to figure out a way to squeeze the two Fulgurites back in. Also would like Deep Strikers of some sort.
Maybe I can go the Cyle Thompson route and just downgrade all of the infantry to Rangers and just HOLD THE LINE:
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Suzuteo wrote: @Gnarlly
Just sanity checking. Are you rvd? Or do you just have the same photo? xD
No, I guess we must share the same avatar pic. I thought I had found a cool piece of art that would be unique as an avatar pic, but it seems I was incorrect.
That painting requirement was a long time coming. Let's be fair here, rubber bands and stuff like that does technically work but it's not super intuitive for an opponent when the whole army is painted the same, or vice versa. The alternative, where you can't just buy a bunch of whatever the hot new model is off of eBay in random colors and call it a day is welcome too, always hated that kind of thing.
Plus it prevents the classic marine habit of just saying they're whichever chapter is OP at the moment a bit. I remember when I started in 5th everyone and their dog was space wolves? Ultramarines? Surprise, space wolves. Iron warriors? Guess again, space wolves. At least now if they want their flavor of the month with soup they've gotta commit to it. Obviously it doesn't stop one from just going mono chapter with whatever scheme they want, but I think it's a good compromise. And to be fair some people like one scheme but think a different book better represents them, I can't blame them for that.
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Heavy Support - 306 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
Total: 2000 points 13 CP
Unless someone can help me figure out a way to free up 9 points in my old list? Even if I cut the Stubbers off my Crawlers, I seem to need another 5 points.
Unless someone can help me figure out a way to free up 9 points in my old list? Even if I cut the Stubbers off my Crawlers, I seem to need another 5 points.
in your mono Mars list. you could swap out the 5 vanguard with 2x plasma in the 2nd battalion for 5 rangers, and then probably give multiple arc rifles to them to make up the additional points?
Heavy Support - 333 1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
Heavy Support - 306 1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Cognis Heavy Stubber, Smoke Launchers
Total: 1996 points 13 CP
Still 13 drops. Multiple configurations for the transport loadouts. One Boat with Rangers just to grab objectives. Would like to figure out a way to squeeze the two Fulgurites back in. Also would like Deep Strikers of some sort.
So I thought about it, and I just realized that I can use a Greyfax instead of Assassins. Same point cost, and it pretty much covers both Culexus and Vindicare in the Chaos matchup.
Suzuteo wrote: So I thought about it, and I just realized that I can use a Greyfax instead of Assassins. Same point cost, and it pretty much covers both Culexus and Vindicare in the Chaos matchup.
Assassins have flexible deployment though and the ability to just pick one on the fly is SUPER beneficial.
Suzuteo wrote: So I thought about it, and I just realized that I can use a Greyfax instead of Assassins. Same point cost, and it pretty much covers both Culexus and Vindicare in the Chaos matchup.
Assassins have flexible deployment though and the ability to just pick one on the fly is SUPER beneficial.
Though I guess not having to pick between them and instead getting both is even more beneficial? If only against Chaos then meh, though. Still, saves 2CP on top of that.
i dont play ITC so it doesnt really affect me but it still kinda bugs me.
I personally find it really annoying when my army is painted in different schemes, its why i usually dont paint in a generic theme (exception being my orks, i love bad moonz yellow).
Had i been playing ITC, that change probably would have made me stop. Thats a lot of work to repaint or buy new stuff to paint as other forgeworld models.
I think the painting requirements are insane. This is from someone who spends a lot of time painting models. For example,
My rangers have brown leather "ranger" jackets
My vanguard have "soviet storm" red jackets
Special Weapons dudes have green jackets
For my upcoming Sisters army, its hard to tell the difference between say a Celestian and a basic Battle Sister squad. Celestians are going to be painted a different color to identify them.
I mostly paint my tanks an off-white color. etc.
I don't understand the fascination with mono-schemes? Why is it that anally retentive people must always get their way. An anal personality is defined by Sigmund Freud as a persnickety personality - a person is a person who pays such attention to detail that it becomes an obsession and may be an annoyance to others. This is the antithesis of the creative spirit.
Even in real life the air-force does not use the same color "scheme" as the navy or the army, and the army has different uniforms too. So thanks to these requirements we've got to paint model after model after model All. The. Same. Yawn.
Moreover, with my army it's easy to identify exactly which units are which, and to tell which models in a unit are armed with special or heavy weapons. So from what I can see it really is simply being anal for the sake of it.
So I've heard a few bad points about ruststalkers lately, are they as bad as people are saying? What about infiltrators?
Edit: Also, which of the priests are the favorite choice these days?
Additional - I'm sure these questions have been asked many times before. The biggest problem with Dakka is that you can't search a specific thread (at least I haven't found the option for it). Seems a strange lack, considering its basic functionality in most forums. I may look to see if they have a 'suggestions' thread... thought I'm unable to search to see if my suggestion has already been suggested.
Gareth_Evans wrote: I think the painting requirements are insane. This is from someone who spends a lot of time painting models. For example,
My rangers have brown leather "ranger" jackets
My vanguard have "soviet storm" red jackets
Special Weapons dudes have green jackets
For my upcoming Sisters army, its hard to tell the difference between say a Celestian and a basic Battle Sister squad. Celestians are going to be painted a different color to identify them.
I mostly paint my tanks an off-white color. etc.
I don't understand the fascination with mono-schemes? Why is it that anally retentive people must always get their way. An anal personality is defined by Sigmund Freud as a persnickety personality - a person is a person who pays such attention to detail that it becomes an obsession and may be an annoyance to others. This is the antithesis of the creative spirit.
Even in real life the air-force does not use the same color "scheme" as the navy or the army, and the army has different uniforms too. So thanks to these requirements we've got to paint model after model after model All. The. Same. Yawn.
Moreover, with my army it's easy to identify exactly which units are which, and to tell which models in a unit are armed with special or heavy weapons. So from what I can see it really is simply being anal for the sake of it.
I guess they’re saying colours are like modelling choices - you can do what you like but if you’re trying to take part in serious competitive tournaments then clarity to your opponent is most important. Keep more creative but more confusing choices for casual games and display cases, they think, because the important thing is to not have any confusion or slow-down for either side in the tournament.
Your army might not be that contusing if you play only one forgeworld, except that they might think you’re running multiple. If you were in fact running multiple it would be a nightmare to play against and remember what unit was in what FW.
Suzuteo wrote: So I thought about it, and I just realized that I can use a Greyfax instead of Assassins. Same point cost, and it pretty much covers both Culexus and Vindicare in the Chaos matchup.
Assassins have flexible deployment though and the ability to just pick one on the fly is SUPER beneficial.
Though I guess not having to pick between them and instead getting both is even more beneficial? If only against Chaos then meh, though. Still, saves 2CP on top of that.
You get both on a model that had no flexible deployment, would have to steal a transport for you to get anywhere, and most importantly isn't all that deadly.
It isn't like it's that hard to get CP either with this army.
Gareth_Evans wrote: I think the painting requirements are insane. This is from someone who spends a lot of time painting models. For example,
My rangers have brown leather "ranger" jackets
My vanguard have "soviet storm" red jackets
Special Weapons dudes have green jackets
For my upcoming Sisters army, its hard to tell the difference between say a Celestian and a basic Battle Sister squad. Celestians are going to be painted a different color to identify them.
I mostly paint my tanks an off-white color. etc.
I don't understand the fascination with mono-schemes? Why is it that anally retentive people must always get their way. An anal personality is defined by Sigmund Freud as a persnickety personality - a person is a person who pays such attention to detail that it becomes an obsession and may be an annoyance to others. This is the antithesis of the creative spirit.
Even in real life the air-force does not use the same color "scheme" as the navy or the army, and the army has different uniforms too. So thanks to these requirements we've got to paint model after model after model All. The. Same. Yawn.
Moreover, with my army it's easy to identify exactly which units are which, and to tell which models in a unit are armed with special or heavy weapons. So from what I can see it really is simply being anal for the sake of it.
I think they make an exception for fluff, such as Librarians being in blue or Apothecaries in white, as long as your paint scheme is consistent.
But I agree. The rules now place the burden on you to make sure your opponent can distinguish between your rules. And since this is a requirement, your opponent can ask a TO to take your models that don't comply off the table, so this is actually a radical shift. For you, the only safe choice in a tourney might be to declare a single faction, as recommended above. Which sucks because I feel these rules were written for Marines (just like "if it fits, it sits"), and we all just have to suffer for it.
Niiru wrote: So I've heard a few bad points about ruststalkers lately, are they as bad as people are saying? What about infiltrators?
Edit: Also, which of the priests are the favorite choice these days?
Ruststalkers might be okay in areas where Hoplites are banned, actually. But yes, generally speaking, they are bad.
Fulgurites are the favorite. They went down to an amazingly cheap 14 points. Load them into transports, kill some unit to get the 3++/5+++, and either charge something and force them to fall back or just hunker down on an objective with Acquisition.
Suzuteo wrote: So I thought about it, and I just realized that I can use a Greyfax instead of Assassins. Same point cost, and it pretty much covers both Culexus and Vindicare in the Chaos matchup.
Assassins have flexible deployment though and the ability to just pick one on the fly is SUPER beneficial.
Though I guess not having to pick between them and instead getting both is even more beneficial? If only against Chaos then meh, though. Still, saves 2CP on top of that.
You get both on a model that had no flexible deployment, would have to steal a transport for you to get anywhere, and most importantly isn't all that deadly.
It isn't like it's that hard to get CP either with this army.
Pomguo wrote:Suzuteo often brings 10 man squads in 12-capacity drills though, so probably no issue with deployment or space.
Greyfax is valuable in and of herself though. She makes disengaging from Fulgurites extremely difficult and shuts down enemy melee really hard. She also has two solid denies. In shooting matchups such as Tau, she can stop OW; shutting down a Riptide from being able to OW is huge.
Correct. I prefer the versatility that comes with choosing if I want to Deep Strike or not. (I was about to say Infiltrate, but I guess I don't do that anymore with an all-Mars list.)
*edit: After the event I have to admit the Ascertainment spell seems to be handy to trap something in combat with Fulgurites, and not die in the process. T3 are really susceptible to the bolters spam, even with a decent inv and FnP. The 12" cast is hard to setup though, and T3 on Greyfax doesn't help - she does take a lot of damage if she gets hit in shooting or combat. This time FW was allowed despite it being an ETC event, hence I could ride her in the Drill. Normally I'd have to give up a slot in Dunerider, and force the enemy to shoot with Mortis rounds every time (only 1 damage each wound).
I am meditating whether Greyfax should be swapped to the generic Ordo Hereticus character with a -1 to wound roll relic for that reason. It would help a bit to keep the Inquisitor alive long enough.
GW have been using these painting restrictions at WHW for a LONG time. It's not that much of a stretch if you ask me. Essentially the philosophy is (for example) if you have 1 unit of Rangers from one Forgeworld and 1 unit from another both have to be consistently modelled to be recognisable as (your) Rangers and you have to be able to tell which unit is from which Forgeworld consistent with the rest of your army.
If you've been painting all your Rangers exactly the same colour and claiming they're from different Forgeoworlds, then technically you've been low-key screwing people over by not designating your forces clearly.
That's not to say that all Mars have to be red, though if you say they are Mars Forgeworld they DO have to be red, otherwise they are the equivalent of a successors Forgeworld of Mars. That's easy you just come up with you're own Forgeworld name and claim they are a Mars successor, same as space marines and any other army.
Personally I hate all the multi-Forgeworld shenanigans. And that goes for any army doing it. Two Forgeworlds helping each other out in separate detachments, yeah feasible, believable. Go for it. Several Forgeworlds present in one location for one battle or detachments of mixed crap where no-one knows who or what you are; Can't stand it. Would never happen unless the fate of the imperium were at stake. And even then some of them would rather let the Imperium burn.
But that's the crap we have to put up with while all these restrictions on army construction for CP and strategm usage exist. Doesn't stop me disliking it.
Octovol wrote: GW have been using these painting restrictions at WHW for a LONG time. It's not that much of a stretch if you ask me. Essentially the philosophy is (for example) if you have 1 unit of Rangers from one Forgeworld and 1 unit from another both have to be consistently modelled to be recognisable as (your) Rangers and you have to be able to tell which unit is from which Forgeworld consistent with the rest of your army.
If you've been painting all your Rangers exactly the same colour and claiming they're from different Forgeoworlds, then technically you've been low-key screwing people over by not designating your forces clearly.
That's not to say that all Mars have to be red, though if you say they are Mars Forgeworld they DO have to be red, otherwise they are the equivalent of a successors Forgeworld of Mars. That's easy you just come up with you're own Forgeworld name and claim they are a Mars successor, same as space marines and any other army.
Personally I hate all the multi-Forgeworld shenanigans. And that goes for any army doing it. Two Forgeworlds helping each other out in separate detachments, yeah feasible, believable. Go for it. Several Forgeworlds present in one location for one battle or detachments of mixed crap where no-one knows who or what you are; Can't stand it. Would never happen unless the fate of the imperium were at stake. And even then some of them would rather let the Imperium burn.
But that's the crap we have to put up with while all these restrictions on army construction for CP and strategm usage exist. Doesn't stop me disliking it.
alright, i play mars and lucius with the official schemes, please tell me the difference on the tabletop.
Araablane wrote: My local gaming club is starting a escalation league (starts at 500pts), im thinking about starting with this list.
Never played Admech before so need advice before i start building.
alright, i play mars and lucius with the official schemes, please tell me the difference on the tabletop.
I'm not sure what you want me to say. I know you know the differences, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make otherwise.
They're different and should be painted differently to show it. That's the crux of the matter.
im trying to make the point that unless you know what t he differences between some factions are, it wont be obvious at first glance, making the whole goal of the rule useless.
Lets take tau for example, the color of their armors can be anything for any sept, its the small markings that make the difference between them. So lets say that i make myself a tau list but painted different roles different colors (flyers blue, pathfinders with camo pattern, ghostkeel/stealth suits with various "coming out of camo" effects) it would make sense lore-wise, but a TO might rule against it because they have different colors.
Honestly i feel like forcing any painting rules is a huge gatekeeping move. If i use rubberbands or base clips to differentiate between my subfactions, i shouldnt be penalised for any aspect of the paint. If i want paint to matter, i'd join a painting tournament.
anybody else annoyed that the CA19 book has dataslates in it but they didnt include the dataslates for ALL of our out of codex releases?
Dr. D isnt listed in the points but he probably popped up late enough to not be included, But i dont see the manip or skorpius/dunerider dataslates so still gotta carry around loose papers
Vineheart01 wrote: anybody else annoyed that the CA19 book has dataslates in it but they didnt include the dataslates for ALL of our out of codex releases?
Dr. D isnt listed in the points but he probably popped up late enough to not be included, But i dont see the manip or skorpius/dunerider dataslates so still gotta carry around loose papers
Dr. D is listed with all Blackstone releases, at the very end of the points part.
dadamowsky wrote: *edit: After the event I have to admit the Ascertainment spell seems to be handy to trap something in combat with Fulgurites, and not die in the process. T3 are really susceptible to the bolters spam, even with a decent inv and FnP. The 12" cast is hard to setup though, and T3 on Greyfax doesn't help - she does take a lot of damage if she gets hit in shooting or combat. This time FW was allowed despite it being an ETC event, hence I could ride her in the Drill. Normally I'd have to give up a slot in Dunerider, and force the enemy to shoot with Mortis rounds every time (only 1 damage each wound).
I am meditating whether Greyfax should be swapped to the generic Ordo Hereticus character with a -1 to wound roll relic for that reason. It would help a bit to keep the Inquisitor alive long enough.
I will probably take Terrify a lot more, I think. Depends a lot on terrain. If they do the whole double-L setup in the midboard, I don't need it as much. I would definitely use Ascertainment to shut down Deathstar-type melee threats like Warlock Conclaves, Possessed, etc. though.
I imagine that I would be using Greyfax to trap things that specialize in shooting. It is hilarious how you can disembark 3" then do a 6" Heroic Intervention. Also, I believe you can command reroll the No Escape; it says it's your dice, not the opponent's; so 75% chance to stop something like a Riptide or Executioner from falling back.
Only real downside is that if I decide to do this monofaction thing, I cannot shove things into their face right off the bat anymore. Sigh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In any case, let's discuss the alternatives to Greyfax. What do you guys think is the best setup for a generic Inquisitor? I am going to assume Ordo Xenos for the 5+ CP recycling and Terrify?
In any case, let's discuss the alternatives to Greyfax. What do you guys think is the best setup for a generic Inquisitor? I am going to assume Ordo Xenos for the 5+ CP recycling and Terrify?
That is my plan, Xenos with 5+ CP recycle, Bio-corrosive poisons & Force Sword, either a plasma pistol or a storm bolter, and Terrify.
Seemed to work quite nicely, the CP regen was really useful and the Poisoned force sword went through CSM rather nicely.
funnily enough that same game the opponents warlord was close to my lines (chaos/emp. children) and I managed to get my Inquisitor within 3" of him, I shot him with a couple of Arquebus, which dropped to one wound then finished off with my vindicare. so I coupld play the vindicare strat that gained CP for killing the warlord (net gain of +2 CP) followed by the Inquisitorial "Take for Interrogation" strat (spend a CP to gain back D3 when character is killed within 3" of Ordo unit) (I rolled a 6 here so again another net gain of 2CP)...
Spoiler:
EDIT: After CA 2019 this list was spot on 1750...[u]
Oh. Hm... probably the better choice for me if I want to trade Ascertainment and an extra deny for Castigation, Agents on the last CP, and a better body.
I dunno. I really like the combat support that Greyfax provides, even if she's squishy.
How do you guys play against Knight heavy lists with mechanised lists?
I see normally it is to shoot with a lot of anti elite shots and stubbers etc for hordes and tie up everything you cant kill in melee with transports.
How do you deal with knights?
Is screening and blocking with duneriders enough?
Or do you go with your drills into melee with them, which seems to be the only real anti tank weaponry, with the help of plasma.
0XFallen wrote: How do you guys play against Knight heavy lists with mechanised lists?
I see normally it is to shoot with a lot of anti elite shots and stubbers etc for hordes and tie up everything you cant kill in melee with transports.
How do you deal with knights?
Is screening and blocking with duneriders enough?
Or do you go with your drills into melee with them, which seems to be the only real anti tank weaponry, with the help of plasma.
against mono-knights, just camp objective and win while he tables you.
against imperium + knights then you kill their troops and proceed to be tabled.
and by tabled i mean "lose a lot of models yet stay alive because admech are really resilient"
On the topic of vs knights since T8 and all, whats more important for Dragoons if they face a T8 target?
+1 Str so they wound on 3s or Reroll hit rolls of 1's so they get more exploding 4+'s
Dragoons i know arent exactly a smart move to have charge knights (crusader maybe since it doesnt have a 6D melee attack) but they can easily put the hurt on to finish one off. Just randomly tossing dice against one i was doing minimum 12 damage to a knight with +1 str with 4 dragoons (idealistic i know but still)
edit: And is it just me, or is there yet ANOTHER rumormill that feels shockingly admech inspired?
In any case, let's discuss the alternatives to Greyfax. What do you guys think is the best setup for a generic Inquisitor? I am going to assume Ordo Xenos for the 5+ CP recycling and Terrify?
Xenos for 5+ CP recycling andBlackshroud is the most obvious choice. Cheap Ld bubble with additional CPs hiding in the Kataphrons spam
Vineheart01 wrote: On the topic of vs knights since T8 and all, whats more important for Dragoons if they face a T8 target?
+1 Str so they wound on 3s
or Reroll hit rolls of 1's so they get more exploding 4+'s
Dragoons i know arent exactly a smart move to have charge knights (crusader maybe since it doesnt have a 6D melee attack) but they can easily put the hurt on to finish one off. Just randomly tossing dice against one i was doing minimum 12 damage to a knight with +1 str with 4 dragoons (idealistic i know but still)
edit: And is it just me, or is there yet ANOTHER rumormill that feels shockingly admech inspired?
It's about the same or rather close.. if you calculate with 5 attacks per dragon its a difference iof about 0.3 for the Strength buff.
I just noticed Dragoons are the only models i own that actually want that +1Str so i was curious. Doesnt have an impact on anything else that i feel wouldnt immediately die in melee anyway (rangers/vanguard).
The 6D melee in return if they didnt kill the knight though would keep me from relying on dragoons to deal with them. Thats each hit = dead goon...no thanks lol.
Course the only knight i ever face is a mono-knight player that...kinda doesnt know the rules that well and more plays knights because BIG ROBOTS than anything else. So odds of me actually having to deal with one thats a legit threat is low.
I always do +1S. RR1 for something that is hitting on 2+ is very minor compared to wounding on 3+ rather than 4+. Also need to consider that this comes with exploding hits, which increase the considerations for better wounding. EDIT: Crunched the numbers and find that 6 Dragoons do 20 wounds with +1S to 17.5 when you have RR1.
Also, an Enginseer or Manipulus can carry Mask and give your Dragoons rerolls anyway.
+1S is pretty important for Vanguard in a matchup against something like Guard.
Oh yes. I was just telling my friend who is prepping for a tourney next week that the Manipulus he is bringing for his Dragoons are probably only going to be able to provide a charge bonus for one turn at best. They can keep up for move bonuses a bit longer, especially if there is terrain that the Manipulus can walk through.
All he really needs to do is to deploy Manipulus more-less in the same position the first Dragoons will go. Manipulus with Advance and 6" auras should keep up after Dragoons, epecially with their huge oval bases (allowing them to fight in two rows 10" from the actual target)
