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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
im scared to actually get more boats before the next CA, i feel like it might get a pts hike because only marines can have good things these days.

If it does it won't be much. It's already a few points more than a rhino with 1 less toughness and 1 more wound. The weapon loadouts are comparable but rhinos also get to pop smoke. They're otherwise identical vehicles.

and the grator variant is massively more vulnerable than a crawler for roughly the same cost. It trades that 5++ with reroll 1s to get more guns and speed.
Hardly worth raising the price for.

I am on the same page as Octovol and vineheart on this.
what you guys think of the list i proposed? C&C more than welcome on this since I need to lock my list

@Iago40k
Arquebuses are a bit meh. Space Marines chew up unprotected Skitarii with their snipers. Any chance you have a Drill or a fourth Boat?

 Suzuteo wrote:
@Iago40k
Arquebuses are a bit meh. Space Marines chew up unprotected Skitarii with their snipers. Any chance you have a Drill or a fourth Boat?

True but there are other match ups as well, right? ;-) thought of it as well but I guess I cannot protect them all. Plus another boat means less of something else.

I’m with Suzuteo on Arquebuses. They’ve never been even close to worth their points for me, and they hurt you by immobilizing your chaff obsec troops more than they hurt the opponent by making them hug LoS blockers, in my experience. If you want sniping then take naked skitarii for obsec and strat in a Vindicare, who is actually a mobile threat and annoying to remove.

@Suzuteo - You say not to worry about screening robots because as long as they get their 1-3 turns of shooting it’s fine for them to get tied up, but it’s turn 1/2 I’m worried about for melee threat. Strong first turn charges and screen clearance followed up by deepstrikers or mobile hordes are all over the place this edition. There’s so many tools for tapping early. So I’m always wary of running robots without significant screening. Bloodletter bombs are highly screenable as you say, but a daemon prince with wings can be warptimed into the robots first turn and can’t be screened by 9” deepstrike denial or blocking, due to it being a FLY move not a redeploy - that’s why I brought that example up.

As for me, my next event is the major in Hong Kong. Their rules cutoff is this weekend, so Salamanders’s Self Sacrifice won’t be FAQ’d. As such half the China scene is urging me to take a Sallies Terminator Cap+Lib with naked scouts, for some Ryzaphron shielding to the tune of Character keyword T6/7 -1 to be hit -1 to be wounded 2+/3++/6+++ with regens of 1W per turn. Then run a Stygies parking lot and 30 or so Skitarii for board control and screens. I’m considering it, since it may be AdMech’s one chance at a dumb broken meme list, and I’m not a huge fan of my other option, a cawlstar. I’m going to see how it goes in a cawlstar practice game tomorrow before making any choices, but the list-building theoryhammer has been fun.

@Pomguo
Yeah. I actually usually end up making them run and cap anyway. Lol.

Really? I find T1 alpha exceedingly rare. But I guess when you do run into them, you can make use of the fact that you know that their game plan is to tap those Robots..

For example, at BAO, I was playing Chaos. I formed my Breachers as a big block in front of my Robots, my Knight and vehicles on the flanks. The Chaos player went first and poured everything into the Breachers. Then he attempted Warptime. I abhored it with Graia without even rerolling. He lost right there because he blew his alpha on my Breachers, and I wiped 50% of his army off the board the next turn.

And last week, I played my friend's Raven Guard successors. Hid all my infantry in my Boats and used them as a wall. He killed the Boats in melee, but got stuck cuz he could not attack the disembarked infantry. Again, wiped 50% of his army out the next turn.

Self Sacrifice is disgusting. I actually have no idea how to counter it in its current iteration aside from disembarked troops right in their face or melee.

I always recommend playing what you are most familiar with at a tourney though. I am just very comfortable playing with Dakkabots. (I will even admit that they are a crutch for me. They are so strong, and I am used to playing around them, but at the same time, I know that they put me at a disadvantage against more mobile lists.)

I guess maybe my scene is just very melee-ish haha. The disembark screen trick is clever, thanks for the advice!

As for what I’m most used to running... would probably be Graia robots, but I don’t have any faith in such a list doing very well in a tourney environment. I will see how much I remember of Mars in tomorrow’s game and if it flops then maybe just back to a Stygies melee/ranged hybrid list like I ran at the Shanghai Open.

Okay so instead of snipers: what could help the rest of the list?
4 breacher could work

Iago40k wrote:
Okay so instead of snipers: what could help the rest of the list?
4 breacher could work

Yeah. Lewis Stolburg is a big fan of a single unit of 4-7 Breachers for body blocking and anti-vehicle shooting.

Well, then this is it. really like it actually.

Mars Battalion
Cawl
TPM
Rangers
Rangers
Rangers
10 Infiltrator
Grator
Grator
Grator

Stygies Bat
Daeda
TPE
Vanguard 2 Plas
Vanguard 2 Plas
4 Breacher
Hoplites
Hoplites
Dunerider
Dunerider
Dunerider

Mars Spearhead
TPE
Icarus Onager
Icarus Onager
Icarus Onager

Eh, my last match each squad of 2 arquebus took out 1 death guard sorc each. I generally find them to be very useful sitting on backfield objectives at -1 to hit. But I also generally dont come up against other snipers.

A single squad of 2 arquebus is about the same points as a vindicare and the only benefit is that the vindicare can move and fire and the squad gets an extra sniper shot plus just as many wounds and 3 extra lots of galvanic rifle shots.

I guess it depends on what you're up against but as I hate the psychic phases getting rid of those guys or making go out of LoS of their targets is most useful.

Octovol wrote:
Eh, my last match each squad of 2 arquebus took out 1 death guard sorc each. I generally find them to be very useful sitting on backfield objectives at -1 to hit. But I also generally dont come up against other snipers.

A single squad of 2 arquebus is about the same points as a vindicare and the only benefit is that the vindicare can move and fire and the squad gets an extra sniper shot plus just as many wounds and 3 extra lots of galvanic rifle shots.

I guess it depends on what you're up against but as I hate the psychic phases getting rid of those guys or making go out of LoS of their targets is most useful.

the vindicaire outdamages 2 arquebus because of the double shooting and the Headshot rule. When we say that marines deal with skitarii easily, were not talking about chaos, were talking about loyalists that all pack at least one ap-2 thunderfire cannon to pop our sniper nests from across the map.

Actually I am a big fan of the Arquebusses. But the guys are right, they just die to thunderfire cannons way to easily, even if Stygies. if it would be possible to fire them after moving Id consider them to get their own ride but that is not going to happen. They are great in other match ups though. Daemons and especially Orks.
4 Breachers are a decent screen in any match up though, since I want my boats and their cargo up field.

Vindicare > 6x Arquebus

Skitarii don't live long enough to pay off over multiple rounds anymore. They will die to TFC, Infiltrators, Scout snipers, really, any bolter in LOS. IMO, you have to protect the Skitarii early on and hit them really hard in order to keep them alive in the later rounds.

Yeah i ended up dropping my 6 arquebus. I did actually get some decent distance with them but I got too frustrated with immobile skitarii units and have taken them back down to barebones and have gone back (again) to taking an assassin.

I am quite happy with my list now too which is the first time in ages. I wanted better board control then I wanted mobility then I wanted stronger screening and then I wanted reliability and ive slowly taken away the swingier elements of RNG and replaced them with consistent units.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't really rate any of our AT. I was getting better mileage from s5/6+ shooting in larger numbers than losing out to las cannons being invuln'd.

So now I run...

Mars Battalion
Cawl
Manipulus (Hermeticon + Anzions)
4 Breachers
4 Breachers
4 Breachers
10 Taser Infiltrators
3 Icarus Crawlers

Stygies Battalion
Enginseer
Enginseer
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
5 Rangers
4 Dragoons
3 Mortar Skorpius

Strat Assassin.

@IronVaught
No transports? I learned my lesson really quick when I ran out of Skitarii by the bottom of round one against Ultramarines snipers and TFCs in a practice match.

 Suzuteo wrote:
@IronVaught
No transports? I learned my lesson really quick when I ran out of Skitarii by the bottom of round one against Ultramarines snipers and TFCs in a practice match.

Yeah... Learned that the hard way too.
List is final. The match up vs Tau is worse than in my previous lists, yet I had a practice game yesterday and it still worked out great.

I love your list!

Bought 2 boats and 1 drill so i can play like this soon ^^

Ok. My Cawl test game got cancelled but I’m gravitating towards Stygies, meta be damned. I know and like the list better. Took out a few special weapons and a spare enginseer, threw in a couple of Ironstriders, and bam, a Brigade to net me a couple more CP. And swapped the largely useless Neutron Onager for a second mortar Skorpius, and the Corpuscarii for Hoplites. Liking the list a lot better now.


Thoughts? I am currently using Master of Biosplicing as the WLT and Autocadeus to help guarantee a fullheal+revive+fullheal on the Kataphrons, but I may spend the CP for field commander to put it on an Enginseer and Necromechanic as the WLT to 100% guarantee that (and then for the relic probably Omniscient Mask on the Manipulus to help the Dragoons or just a Phosphoenix for the Dominus).

@Iago40k
I like the list too. But you think Manipulus is worth it? Maybe trade him for another two Breachers?

 Suzuteo wrote:
@Iago40k
I like the list too. But you think Manipulus is worth it? Maybe trade him for another two Breachers?

Game winner against tau cause grators. Also a nice sniper magnet. Had the same thoughts as you. Though. More breacher would give up gang busters and they are not needed really. That's my reasoning anyway :-)

Is there any real use for melee Kastelans, or are dakkabots the best bots?

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
Is there any real use for melee Kastelans, or are dakkabots the best bots?

A treacherous 06art of me wants to say taking 1 or 2 in a blob of 5 or 6 is nice for bailing out once a unit gets into cc with you.

*edit* just read a few pages back you guys talking about what I asked

Iago40k wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
@IronVaught
No transports? I learned my lesson really quick when I ran out of Skitarii by the bottom of round one against Ultramarines snipers and TFCs in a practice match.

Yeah... Learned that the hard way too.
List is final. The match up vs Tau is worse than in my previous lists, yet I had a practice game yesterday and it still worked out great.

Spoiler:

Mars bat
Cael
Tpm rail and WL
Vanguard
Vanguard
Vanguard
10 infis
Grator
Grator
Grator

Stygies bat
Daeda
TPE
4 breacher
Vanguard 2 plas
Vanguard 2 plas
Hoplits
Hoplits
Dunerider
Dunerider
Dunerider

Mars spearhead
TPE
Icarus
Icarus
Icarus

Can you probably explain how the list works? For my learning progress ^^ would be cool

weaver9 wrote:

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:
Is there any real use for melee Kastelans, or are dakkabots the best bots?

A treacherous 06art of me wants to say taking 1 or 2 in a blob of 5 or 6 is nice for bailing out once a unit gets into cc with you.

the problem is that if you root your squad to double shoot, the enemy can possibly maneuver their assaulting unit so your punchy dudes cant fight, since you won`t be able to move.

I've played punchy bots a few times, and deepstriking a squad of 4, teleporting a datasmith to give them the +3" to charge lets them wreck gak in turn 2-3. The problem is that they are quite costly, thats a lot of points that aren`t doing anything turn 1, and a smart opponent can easily screen agaisnt them to make them destroy a unit of guards and then do nothing more,.

 Hesselhof wrote:
Can you probably explain how the list works? For my learning progress ^^ would be cool

Basically, the plan is to infiltrate all of the Duneriders, which contain the Vanguard and Hoplites, toward objectives. The overarching goal of the list is to control objectives while wearing down your opponent's ability to contest them. This means using the Boats to charge enemy vehicles, rendering both of them unable to shoot; your Hoplites handle melee threats and your Vanguard shoot vehicles and infantry; meanwhile, your Breachers, Crawlers, and Grators are also deleting flyers, bikers, infantry, and other artillery. Drop the Infiltrators behind your opponent to capture, onto a flank to reinforce it, or just to throw 8-9 mortals onto something. You win on inertia; even if the opponent is out-killing you in the start, they will eventually simply have no way to out-score you. This sort of list is common in ITC because more skilled players want games to go six rounds and to score as many points as possible.

Imagine an Iron Hands army with 3 Repulsors. You would just focus on killing all of his Stormtalons, Scouts, Intercessors, and Centurions. On his turn, he will start deleting your transports and tanks, maybe use Bolters to thin down disembarked Skitarii. By the bottom of round four, it's likely most of your tanks and transports are dead, as well as some of your Skitarii, but so is everything in his list but the Repulsors. Despite the fact that he killed 1600 of your points and you only killed 1100 of his, you will win for no reason other than the fact that those Neutron Lasers knock-offs cannot kill more than a handful of Skitarii per turn. Every turn, you are scoring 2-4 points. He is maybe scoring 2-3. And then there are secondaries. This list is hard to pick secondaries against. It will likely be Marked For Death and Big Game Hunter, but this just doubles down on the fact that he cannot really address the Skitarii that are scoring the points. On your side, the easiest things to pick are Recon, Engineers if they have no LOS ignoring units, Marked For Death (picking his scoring units), Ground Control against lists where you expect to get your butt kicked, and maybe Old School as a backup. There are also some army-specific secondaries you take, like Gangbusters against Drukhari and AdMech; Reaper against Guard, Nids, Orks; maybe Big Game Hunters against IH and Eldar flyers.

Thank you very much, helped me a lot!

Leaning to Iagos list (because i freaking like it^^) and the models i own i made this list i want to to test for my next ITC tourney in december:

Mars Bat
Cawl
Manipulus
3x5 Ranger
10 Infils
2 Icarus Onager
1 Neutronager ( only got 2 Icarus Arrays, fail building in early days)

Mars Spearhead
TPE
3 Belleros Grators

Stygies Bat
Deadalosus
TPE
2x 5 Vanguards with 2 Plasma each
1x 5 Naked Vanguards
4 Breacher
2 Dunerider
1 Terrax Drill

Plasma Vanguards in the Drill or the Hoplites, depends on enemy, the naked 5 vanguards got theyr own dunerider

Do you guys think this is just a almost fail copy and paste or playable? The fact that this list building is much more my playstyle then just castle around made me to do this =P

I think our next HQ gonna fly!

@Hesselhof
I think you need more Calivers or Hoplites to make the list work. Just vanilla Skitarii are not great for fighting things like Invictors. That or you concentrate the Plasma into a DS package to go with the Infiltrators. I used to do that, and it worked really well.

Maybe something like this?

I personally have found that I don't need nearly as much CP as I had thought with these vehicle spam lists. You pretty much spend a bunch of CP at the start to infiltrate, and after that, it's just Doctrina, Plasma Specialists, and a single Wrath of Mars. (Infiltrators don't tend to live very long after opponents find out how many mortals they can spit out; as usual, watch out for Auspex Scan in this meta.)

If you really want two Battalions, you could make a mixed Battalion instead of the Patrol.