Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes

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**Suzuteo**

@Pomguo
Ah. No problem then.

@Hesselhof
Basically, many of the dogmas suck and certain relics and stratagems work best with specific units. Therefore, mixing and matching Forge Worlds make sense.

--

Crazy idea: Cawlstar without Cawl.

Spoiler:

It's a bit zany, but basically, you can spend 3 CP to give the Robots and both Destroyer units +1 to hit. Daedalosus gets them to +2 to hit. So you got all these BS4 units hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s.

You could put the Destroyers into one big unit, but then it's harder to hide them on turn one. They also can't maneuver separately and can get focused down more easily.

One huge concern is the lack of a counter-charger. I could bring Stygies Dragoons, but that might make the list more vulnerable to psychic powers and also lack the option to deep strike.

Thoughts? I am generally frustrated at the limited options we have for dealing with IH Executioners.

**Iago40k**

Suzuteo wrote:
@Pomguo
Ah. No problem then.

@Hesselhof
Basically, many of the dogmas suck and certain relics and stratagems work best with specific units. Therefore, mixing and matching Forge Worlds make sense.

--

Crazy idea: Cawlstar without Cawl.

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 945
Servitor Maniple (-1 CP)

HQ - 180
1x Tech-Priest Dominus
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus

Troop - 432
4x Kataphron Destroyer - 4x Plasma Culverin, 4x Cognis Flamer
4x Kataphron Destroyer - 4x Plasma Culverin, 4x Cognis Flamer
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Heavy Support - 333
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon

Mars Battalion Detachment - 620
Cybernetica Cohort (-1 CP)

HQ - 60
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer - Warlord: Master of Bio-splicing
1x Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 120
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Heavy Support - 440
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phosphor Blaster

Mixed Battalion Detachment - 432

HQ - 80
1x Lucius Tech-Priest Enginseer - Relic: The Solar Flare
1x Daedalosus

Troop - 198
10x Ryza Skitarii Vanguard - 7x Radium Carbine, 3 Plasma Caliver, Enhanced Data-tether
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Troop - 20
4x Graia Servitor

Transport - 134
1x Ryza Termite Assault Drill - 2x Stormbolter

Total: 1997 points
16 CP

It's a bit zany, but basically, you can spend 3 CP to give the Robots and both Destroyer units +1 to hit. Daedalosus gets them to +2 to hit. So you got all these BS4 units hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s.

You could put the Destroyers into one big unit, but then it's harder to hide them on turn one. They also can't maneuver separately and can get focused down more easily.

One huge concern is the lack of a counter-charger. I could bring Stygies Dragoons, but that might make the list more vulnerable to psychic powers and also lack the option to deep strike.

Thoughts? I am generally frustrated at the limited options we have for dealing with IH Executioners.

I am on vacation and did not have the chance yet to get some reading on IH capabilities. You mind telling me what they are upto with executioners and what not?

**Pomguo**

Most of the terror in my scene has been around IH Lev Dreads. Half damage then -1 damage means anything short of 5 damage does only 1 damage. Repair like 9 wounds a turn. Operate on double wounds’ profile. Make the dread a character with one strat (after making it your warlord) then give it a WLT trait with another, and now you have a dread that can consolidate 6” in any direction (ie fall back during your fight phase and be ready to shoot in its turn).

Just resilient nonsense beyond even DG levels, on a gun platform it’s annoying to ignore and doesn’t take up as much space in your list as a knight. Ouch.

**Iago40k**

Pomguo wrote:
Most of the terror in my scene has been around IH Lev Dreads. Half damage then -1 damage means anything short of 5 damage does only 1 damage. Repair like 9 wounds a turn. Operate on double wounds’ profile. Make the dread a character with one strat (after making it your warlord) then give it a WLT trait with another, and now you have a dread that can consolidate 6” in any direction (ie fall back during your fight phase and be ready to shoot in its turn).

Just resilient nonsense beyond even DG levels, on a gun platform it’s annoying to ignore and doesn’t take up as much space in your list as a knight. Ouch.

I already got the feeling that cawl dakkastar has to reappear...

**JNAProductions**

Wouldn't the active player decide what order to apply the rules?

So if you shoot a Neutron Laser at a Leviathan and deal 4 damage, you could say "-1 first, then half" for 2 damage.

**Vineheart01**

That is correct, JNAProductions

From the rulebook pg4 (on the left side):

Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved

The combo of those damage negation doesnt work that way if they arent somehow worded to happen at different points (auto regen would be a way to bypass this, but then of course you could kill before that kicks in i guess). Player shooting will always go "Ok, -1 first then half it. Partial values are always rounded up unless told otherwise, so 1.5 = 2 damage"
Still an annoying combo as 3 damage = 1 damage and its massively difficult to just explode it in a couple shots, as 6 damage would become 3

(-1 = 5, half = 2.5 meaning 3 damage)

**Suzuteo**

And the Ironstone relic can be held by some of the most durable HQs in the entire Space Marine codex.

Yeah. I keep trying to figure out how to handle these terrors, and it boils down to:
1) Dakkabots. Lots of Dakkabots.
2) Infantry. Lots of infantry. And transports too. Hide them everywhere. Spending all of your resources killing Thunderfire Cannons and hold on for dear life.

Problem with #1 is that it might not work against Tau; if they go first, they can delete the unit of their choice just about. Problem with #2 is likely that it won't work against Fists.

**Iago40k**

Suzuteo wrote:
And the Ironstone relic can be held by some of the most durable HQs in the entire Space Marine codex.

Yeah. I keep trying to figure out how to handle these terrors, and it boils down to:
1) Dakkabots. Lots of Dakkabots.
2) Infantry. Lots of infantry. And transports too. Hide them everywhere. Spending all of your resources killing Thunderfire Cannons and hold on for dear life.

Problem with #1 is that it might not work against Tau; if they go first, they can delete the unit of their choice just about. Problem with #2 is likely that it won't work against Fists.

Don't know about that. Daedalosus, manipulus and the bot detachment helps a lot vs tau. We got more range plus durability. It's been a looooong time since tau killed my bots^^
But I don't think we need lots of dakkabots. Maybe just 2 to 3 actually. I will work on that.

**Suzuteo**

Minimum 4 if you want to kill an Executioner each turn. But they will be shooting back so... hm...

**Pomguo**

Minimum 3 will leave an IH lev dred on 1 wound. But again like Suzuteo says, this isn’t reliable because we’re not in a samdbox where we always go first.

Just like against Tau, if they go first they can wipe robots before we can shoot. And Tau in particular are good at removing single targets. Would have to play the range game in deployment, but with a quick Kauyon their whole army is advancing and shooting everything first turn, so that may be tricky in some deployment styles.

Oh, and about determining damage:

“Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength? A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by the weapon’s Strength characteristic.

For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.”

So seems like for working out multiple simultaneous modifiers, you multiply/divide then add/subtract, according to previous FAQs. Meaning that 4 damage weapons do 1 damage, still.

**Suzuteo**

Here's another list. Perhaps more serious than the other list in that it drops Destroyers for Breachers:

Spoiler:

One thing that is important to note is that Drills are actually really tall. Enough that two can easily block LOS for 4x Robots.

EDIT: I just realized there is a way to fit 3x4 Breachers in here. Though a part of my wonders if they're relevant in a meta that is increasingly focused on S5-7 weapons.

And one that uses a Stygies Distraction Carnifex:

Spoiler:

Less CP hungry, but less of a sure thing too. If they want those Robots dead, they dead.

**Iago40k**

Going for this. I kicked 2 breachers so I can get another dakkabot. Might get rough with cp but it is what it is. Its 2004 pts cause BS still doesn't know how to handle a manipulus.

Spoiler:

**Pomguo**

Unfortunately all my local TOs side with the BS team in saying that the “including wargear” cost of the Manipulus means including any wargear, whether it’s 5 or 0. Like it gets the 5 one for free. I think that’s a crap stupid reading myself, and daft writing if intended that way, but we just have to wait and see, and hope your TO agrees with you.

**Hesselhof**

@iago:

Do you use the hoplites instead of the Dragoons becuase the are "cheaper" and can be transported?

Can i also ask you, why you use a big blob of breachers instead of 2x4?

I ask, because i want to learn

**Suzuteo**

@Hesselhof
Dragoons and Dunerider+Hoplites do different but complementary things.

Both have melee attacks, T6 3+ toughness, minus to hit, and can be infiltrated.

Dragoons have an extra -1 to hit. Their best role is counter-charging (standing back and attacking after the enemy has gotten stuck in), intercepting (moving out to fight before they reach your lines), screening (making big walls that the enemy has to get through), and also skirmishing (fighting small battles over objectives). They make very strong use of the Doctrina to essentially double their S8-9 attacks. They can also use the Dunestrider stratagem to move very deep behind enemy lines.

Dunerider+Hoplites can shoot; 12x S4 and 10x 12" S6 AP-1 shots is actually quite respectable, and you can expect to wipe T3 units quite easily. They can also fight, with Duneriders charging in to absorb Overwatch, block LOS (Duneriders are taller than Hoplites), and help trap units (anvil), and the Hoplites doing the actual damage (hammer). Hoplites are especially good at popping T6-7 vehicles with their S6-7 Arc attacks. In terms of role, they mostly screen and skirmish; you rarely want to seek to intercept or counter-charge, since you have to disembark before moving, and the act of disembarking makes the Hoplites slower and more vulnerable. As mentioned before, the combo does great against T3 profiles in shooting, so you can infiltrate, disembark, and move in while shooting with the Dunerider blocking LOS (remember that Hoplites can advance, Doctrina, and still hit on 2s in shooting; they cannot charge though, so again, more for skirmishing). They are also very strong walls; even if your opponent kills the Dunerider in fighting, he can't fight the Hoplites inside, which means he has to shoot the transports, which keeps your other T6-7 units safe. Duneriders can use the Cognis Overwatch ability to chew through charging infantry, and Hoplites are the best user of the Acquisition stratagem in our army; they get Stormshields (3++) in melee as well as +1A for a total of 31 during your opponent's turn. And you can do this again if you really, really need that objective (2++ and 41 attacks!).

A big blob of Breachers uses stratagems like Noospheric Mindlock, Enhanced Bionics, Infoslave Skull, and Acquisition more effectively. Furthermore, it absorbs hits better for repair/resurrection; remember that you can repair with one HQ, resurrect, then repair with a second HQ. Typically, you want to either run 3-5 Breachers or 9-12x Breachers. Anything in between is not as flexible as the former (especially for movement and hiding) but not as efficient as the latter.

Note that if you do a big blob, you need to bring ways to protect it from Doom/Jinx, which is one area I think Iago40k can improve on. You will run into Eldar eventually, and they love chewing up big units. It also is more vulnerable to Triptides, which has an excellent S6 gun.

**Hesselhof**

@Suzuteo

Thank you very much the explanation!

Ya my to go atm are Dragoons, i own 5. Maybe i will buy in future hoplites^^

My next thing to buy are 3 boxes Breacher

**Thairne**

That was a very informative post, Suzuteo.
I feel a bit dumb for not seeing those things myself and wondering why the heck everyone loves dragoons and i couldnt make them work... DUH!
If you have any more of those nuggets of wisdom... You usually only read "Dragoons are great" or "Breachers work well" and never get an explanation to WHY and what pieces are required to make them work.

**Suzuteo**

Gee. You mean people are supposed to talk about tactics in this forum?

Here's what I am thinking right now for SoCal Open. I will walk through it.

Spoiler:

Mars Spearhead because a Mars Battalion can only contain three Heavy Support. And you need 3x Grators in pretty much any competitive list because non-LOS shooting is essential to scoring Kill More or even Kill One at times, and people like hiding in ruins quite often. The fourth slot goes to 4x Robots, which are the only proactive solution to Iron Hands Executioners, and even then, it is not a sure thing. Furthermore, they are weak to armies that excel in killing single units, and they give up Gangbusters quite easily. Cawl so that I can use a Canticle for my non-Mars units, then reserve the second Canticle for Shroudpsalm for my Mars units. By default though, you should use Shroudpsalm for the entire army, as they make your units extraordinarily tough in the open (for their points, anyway).

Mixed Battalion for 5 CP and a useful toolkit. Graia Rangers to stand around your gunline to Abhor Psychic spells on a 4+; 75% chance with a command reroll. Lucius Enginseer so that you can take the teleport relic. This relic is a free VP or even two for missions like Ground Control, Recon, and Old School's Linebreaker, not to mention the Crucible of Champions scenario. I put the Mars Manipulus here because he mostly is just there to increase the threat radius of the gunline. He doesn't need the Shroudpsalm that much.

Stygies for another 5 CP. You always take Stygies pure for the -1 to hit. Daedalosus is here because you don't need two Enginseers; you don't even need one, to be honest; he's a tax. Vanguard are here because they need to work with the Hoplites; in some situations, you can deploy a Hoplite unit as a counter-charger or objective holder inside a ruin, then put some Vanguard into the second transport. Remember, you can run and still shoot with Vanguard and Hoplites both, since they have got Assault weapons. Dragoons because I'm already giving up Gangbusters with another must-kill unit (Robots). And it's relatively hard to score BGH if Grators are in the mix.

You typically will want to spend 1-3 CP right away to infiltrate the Dragoons and Duneriders with infantry embarked. The goal is to force the enemy to shoot at them instead of your Martian firebase. Dragoons have a threat radius of 31" on turn one; Duneriders don't need to disembark on the first turn, but provide fire support (with the Grators and Robots, you can remove a ton of chaff) and absorb Overwatch. Parking the Duneriders on top of objectives also works well.

Questions for me:
1) Do I want three Battalions or perhaps make the Stygies unit a Vanguard detachment? I can move the Robots into the Mixed Battalion, as they rely primarily on their invulnerable save in most matchups.
2) Do I want to swap the Manipulus with the Enginseer in the Stygies unit? He actually can do quite a lot of good moving the assault elements down the board. However, 42" guns are great for Robots and Grators.

**Hesselhof**

Are 3 bats. necassery?

I guess the manipulus is in this case better with mars for the improved range

**Pomguo**

@Suzuteo
You mention charging the transport into heavier guns and having the Hoplites try for a charge if it blows up - but the second page of the Big Rule Book’s FAQ/Errata says: “Units cannot declare a charge during the same turn that they disembarked from a destroyed transport.”

This was added to stop Khorne shenanigans that started popping up last year where a transport would deliberately overcharge plasma to let zerkers disembark and charge after it had moved.

**Iago40k**

Pomguo wrote:
@Suzuteo
You mention charging the transport into heavier guns and having the Hoplites try for a charge if it blows up - but the second page of the Big Rule Book’s FAQ/Errata says: “Units cannot declare a charge during the same turn that they disembarked from a destroyed transport.”

This was added to stop Khorne shenanigans that started popping up last year where a transport would deliberately overcharge plasma to let zerkers disembark and charge after it had moved.

You disembark, charge with the transport and then with hoplits. The FAQ is about a transport that charges WHILE a unit is still embarked. This unit cannot charge if the transport gets blown apart during the charge.

Great job on the last couple of posts suzuteo.

Atm I think we (well maybe just me) need bots, snipers, cawl, gyratory, dragoons and hoplits. I have to get rid of my beloved breachers I think. Cp will be a problem.

Firebase plus melee push.

Edit:

Maybe this

Spoiler:

Missing the snipers which I don't like but all in all I think this could work. 20 points for Servitors though.

**Suzuteo**

@Pomguo
Oh wow. I never caught that. Ah well, it's a weird edge case anyway. Never charged something and had my fully loaded transport outright killed yet.

Edited and removed the offending passage.

**Hesselhof**

On Spikey Bits is a list which made 2nd place on the Giga-Bites RTT

Spoiler:

looks interesting

**Suzuteo**

Yeah. Robots + Breachers or Destroyers is another avenue that I am considering; it's the list a few pages back that only gives up Gangbusters. I only have got 15 of them though. And 6 are fixed as Destroyers. Sigh...

EDIT: Seems like this is a pre-IH RTT? Still, probably not too far off from what everyone is eventually going to be running. And Ultramarines may prove to be just as popular as IH.

Okay, I had a lot of fun making this list. Based it on that Gigabites list. Combines my love of Ryzaphrons, Mars Dakkabots, and Stygies Dragoon bombs all into one:

Spoiler:

**Thairne**

Hm... the last day got me thinking how I might grossly over- and undervalue some stratagems available.

I think I have some pretty large misconceptions/failure to understand what makes what actually good... and some are pretty obvious (dragoons + doctrina e.g.).

Lemme go over them quickly and you guys can tell me where I really feth up in my evaluation

Spoiler:

**WrentheFaceless**

Suzuteo wrote:
Gee. You mean people are supposed to talk about tactics in this forum?

Havent been in here in a while as am working on a SM army, but I am glad to see it is actually talk about Ad Mech tactics instead of being an IG thread.

**Iago40k**

Thairne wrote:
Hm... the last day got me thinking how I might grossly over- and undervalue some stratagems available.

I think I have some pretty large misconceptions/failure to understand what makes what actually good... and some are pretty obvious (dragoons + doctrina e.g.).

Lemme go over them quickly and you guys can tell me where I really feth up in my evaluation

Spoiler:

Gloria Mechanicus:
Never used before. 2 CP is expensive and while switching from reroll 1's to Mortal Wounds or +1S seems like a good trade in theory, in reality I either have not enough melee in combat to justifiy the cost or I simply forget that it is a thing.
Plus 2 CP sounds like I can get more use out of a Wrath of Mars or Elimination Volley...

Divine Chorus:
Pretty sure I've never used it.
I think I've never used it. Usually I play either Stygies or Mars; in case of the latter I can get Shroudpsalm reliably anyway, in the former I tend to try and close to melee anyway. Is it actually worth the 2 CP out of the 13 or so you usually have to use?

Zealous Congregation:
Now with a Dunerider, I might get the Priests into combat once. At that cost, I presume it is mostly only good enough on a pretty large blob of Priests and only if it gives me a decisive victory, like taking out a Knight before it can stomp back.

Elimination Volley:
I also shy away a bit from this. Breachers damage output is too weak for my tastes and with Cawl or now Daedalosus the Bots can get a good hitratio anyway.

Binharic Override:
I pretty almost always reserve a CP for this, usually to break the legs of the Bots on T1, save the points in the Datasmith and try and alphastrike something important with WoM.

Archeotech Specialists:
Since the relics suck that Mars and to some extend Stygies get... I dont see a need for this.

Scryerskull:
We dont use these mission types where this even might come into play.

Dataspike:
When my caracters are engaging an enemy vehicle, something has went terribly wrong. Also seems very weak unless it could knock down the vehicle another bracket or deal the killing blow.

Cognis Overwatch:
Since I dont run any laschickens yet, I find hardly any use for this stratagem. Hitting with stubbers on overwatch.. unlikely to do anything and seems like a waste of CP.

Conqueror Doctrina:
This is the eye opener. I totally underrated this.... I simply did not connect the exploding 6's on the Dragoons and this. I also just realised this works for Infiltrators as well.
Hot damn I feel dumb now!

Protector Doctrina:
]I am aware of the immunity it gives to Plasma Vanguard, but I mostly used it to actually make my Onagers HIT something with the Neutron Lasers/Icarus Array.
Small brother of the first with not as many uses?

Benevolence of the Omnissiah:
Used this a few times to soften a Smite. Usually I wont bother unless the opponent has its sight on a specific model he really wants gone and I want to make his life as hard as possible.

Tech-Adept:
See above, but only if the model survived.
Machine Spirit Resurgent:
Basically one more turn of shooting at max efficiency for a model. Probably useful on an Onager or Knight, mostly useless though because of focus fire.

Rage of the Machines:
Seems bad - only 1 vehicle, Onagers and Dunerider variants ignore the penalty anyway and a chicken is not worth the CP. If it was a whole unit... maybe.

Dunestriders:
[spoiler]Used a few times, usually pass on it though. I either want my Chickens to be > 12" away or very, very close. But it can come in handy to catch something, although it means no charges and therefore basically takes them out of the equation for an entire turn.

Aquisition at any cost:
Something I probably underuse criminally as well, but mostly due to the fact that I play wrong. Big surprise Seems to be best when either attacking or defending an objective and I'm not aggressive enough for that. I need to shove more units in Duneriders into the enemy's face, then it seems worth it. But without the added attack, 2 CP seems too expensive.

Infoslave skull:
Useful if things like Scions drop down. Can take the sting out of the following shooting.

Machine Spirit's Revenge:
I too often forget about this. Dealing free mortal wounds with the chickens/duneriders to units that bothered it - almost always a good idea if the vehicle died in CC.

This might happen when you tend to spend your time on gw-whineworld, where you cannot learn anything. Stick to this thread or join the German competitive community over here https://discord.gg/AFrQ6B

@suzuteo what you think about the last list of mine? If I had the points I'd throw out the Servitors for peltasts though :-D

@Hesselhoff the last well performing lists (e.g. mine or engelshäubchens) aren't worth that much anymore when IH come and get us

**Hesselhof**

GW whineworld ^^ sad but true.... you know my thread there, no response etc .. this thread is brilliant, learnd so much in this short time here, thx =)

Very sad with your lists, liked both :(

Btw: can i use the cybernetica cohort gem which makes heavy to assault, with binary override? So that they are assault 18 shots per bot for one turn?

**The Forgemaster**

Thairne wrote:
Hm... the last day got me thinking how I might grossly over- and undervalue some stratagems available.

I think I have some pretty large misconceptions/failure to understand what makes what actually good... and some are pretty obvious (dragoons + doctrina e.g.).

Lemme go over them quickly and you guys can tell me where I really feth up in my evaluation

Spoiler:

Gloria Mechanicus:
Never used before. 2 CP is expensive and while switching from reroll 1's to Mortal Wounds or +1S seems like a good trade in theory, in reality I either have not enough melee in combat to justifiy the cost or I simply forget that it is a thing.
Plus 2 CP sounds like I can get more use out of a Wrath of Mars or Elimination Volley...

Divine Chorus:
Pretty sure I've never used it.
I think I've never used it. Usually I play either Stygies or Mars; in case of the latter I can get Shroudpsalm reliably anyway, in the former I tend to try and close to melee anyway. Is it actually worth the 2 CP out of the 13 or so you usually have to use?

Zealous Congregation:
Now with a Dunerider, I might get the Priests into combat once. At that cost, I presume it is mostly only good enough on a pretty large blob of Priests and only if it gives me a decisive victory, like taking out a Knight before it can stomp back.

Elimination Volley:
I also shy away a bit from this. Breachers damage output is too weak for my tastes and with Cawl or now Daedalosus the Bots can get a good hitratio anyway.

Binharic Override:
I pretty almost always reserve a CP for this, usually to break the legs of the Bots on T1, save the points in the Datasmith and try and alphastrike something important with WoM.

Archeotech Specialists:
Since the relics suck that Mars and to some extend Stygies get... I dont see a need for this.

Scryerskull:
We dont use these mission types where this even might come into play.

Dataspike:
When my caracters are engaging an enemy vehicle, something has went terribly wrong. Also seems very weak unless it could knock down the vehicle another bracket or deal the killing blow.

Cognis Overwatch:
Since I dont run any laschickens yet, I find hardly any use for this stratagem. Hitting with stubbers on overwatch.. unlikely to do anything and seems like a waste of CP.

Conqueror Doctrina:
This is the eye opener. I totally underrated this.... I simply did not connect the exploding 6's on the Dragoons and this. I also just realised this works for Infiltrators as well.
Hot damn I feel dumb now!

Protector Doctrina:
]I am aware of the immunity it gives to Plasma Vanguard, but I mostly used it to actually make my Onagers HIT something with the Neutron Lasers/Icarus Array.
Small brother of the first with not as many uses?

Benevolence of the Omnissiah:
Used this a few times to soften a Smite. Usually I wont bother unless the opponent has its sight on a specific model he really wants gone and I want to make his life as hard as possible.

Tech-Adept:
See above, but only if the model survived.
Machine Spirit Resurgent:
Basically one more turn of shooting at max efficiency for a model. Probably useful on an Onager or Knight, mostly useless though because of focus fire.

Rage of the Machines:
Seems bad - only 1 vehicle, Onagers and Dunerider variants ignore the penalty anyway and a chicken is not worth the CP. If it was a whole unit... maybe.

Dunestriders:
[spoiler]Used a few times, usually pass on it though. I either want my Chickens to be > 12" away or very, very close. But it can come in handy to catch something, although it means no charges and therefore basically takes them out of the equation for an entire turn.

Aquisition at any cost:
Something I probably underuse criminally as well, but mostly due to the fact that I play wrong. Big surprise Seems to be best when either attacking or defending an objective and I'm not aggressive enough for that. I need to shove more units in Duneriders into the enemy's face, then it seems worth it. But without the added attack, 2 CP seems too expensive.

Infoslave skull:
Useful if things like Scions drop down. Can take the sting out of the following shooting.

Machine Spirit's Revenge:
I too often forget about this. Dealing free mortal wounds with the chickens/duneriders to units that bothered it - almost always a good idea if the vehicle died in CC.

Agree with most of this, however...

Zealous Congregation: "charge" two units wipe the first then consolidate into and fight/kill the second (note you still need to declare a charge on both I think?)

Elimination Volley: before Dr. D it was still useful for our bots, now possibly still useful turn 1 due to the range on Dr.D's buff. personally moved away from robots so it does not see as much play with me now (I have noospheric mindlock instead on my kataphrons/Dr.D)

Cognis Overwatch: excellent for a large unit of chickens (but as you say you have none at the moment), also on a Skorpius hitting 9 stubber shots can take out one or two of the charging unit which might be enough for your skorpius to survive and/or help make the skorpius points back e.g. a unit of vanguad veterans with TH/SS will get a bit of a shock (especially if they have already lost some of their unit)...

Protector Doctrina: very good on the chickens - you can advance with a unit (and even use Dunestriders) and still hit on 3+ which makes for some awesome re-deploy shenanigans - or you could send a unit forward to be able to shoot around a large LoS blocking piece of terrain... or a decent boost vs a negative to hit unit like aliatoc eldar.

Rage of the Machines: if you run a brigade and therefore want single units of chickens they can advance and still shoot normally - makes a good alternative to Protector Doctrina - it helps make a gunline mobile. also if you need to move your bots - one of them can still fire normally instead of on 5+.

Dunestriders: push a unit of chickens up for linebreaker and/or combo with Protector Doctrina as above and keep your firepower on ironstriders. agree that it can be less useful on Dragoons unless you really want that distraction carnifex...

Aquisition at any cost: Kataphrons are infantry too - if you have a big blob of Plasmaphrons (with enhanced bionics for 5++) this and shroudspalm it can be very helpful in keeping them alive turn one until you shoot back if needed...

Infoslave skull: I use it more as a scare tactic/mind games - mention it with kataphrons to my opponent and let them know what it does to his deep striking units - he will not place any unit near your unit of 9 plasmaphrons - i guarantee it...

**Iago40k**

Hesselhof wrote:
GW whineworld ^^ sad but true.... you know my thread there, no response etc .. this thread is brilliant, learnd so much in this short time here, thx =)

Very sad with your lists, liked both :(

Btw: can i use the cybernetica cohort gem which makes heavy to assault, with binary override? So that they are assault 18 shots per bot for one turn?

Yes you can. You use the strafing run stratagem in your movement phase and binharic override at the start of your shooting phase.be aware though: while you can override at the start of ANY phase, In that specific circumstance a vect could break your back ;-)
Join the discord group then, lots and lots of people to talk to.