Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes

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**Agamembar**

So the new marine faq added an interesting wrinkle, if you want to be that guy the rule states that any rule that generates extra hits the bit that it generated counts as having rolled that hit now the problem begins in that any hit a taser goad generates that tolls the explodes result causes more hits and there’s no wording in the rule to prevent the extra hit generating extra hits so one dragoon if it explodes could kill anything in the game once you get bored of adding extra hits to hits attack. Same for the corpiscarii and the infiltrators and their goads. With the not specifying marines in the answer you could legitimately argue it applies to everyone.

Needless to say I expect this to get corrected but if you want to kill a knight with one infiltrator or one dragoon here’s your chance haha

**Suzuteo**

Wow. They did not think that one through.

Lol. So I was messing around and realized that I could create an army that fit all of its units into 14 drops. (Embark 6x5 Vanguard with Calivers, 2x10 Hoplites, 2 Enginseers into 3x Dunerider, 2x Drill. Deploy 3x Grator, 2x Crawler, Dominus, Daedalosus, Lucius Enginseer. Deep Strike 9x Infiltrators.)

**U02dah4**

Yeah its an auto loss on anyone that uses it

Just play with a clock

I concead you have infinite hits now please roll infinite wound rolls while I wait for your clock to expire given your clock has expired before you move to damage you never even kill the knight

**Thairne**

I've been tinkering with that fabled "hammer and anvil" style since I tire of only shooting (and I become a bit predictable and start to get overwhelmed by guard shooting)... I'm wondering if there's something obvious I could change with this list?
Don't own any Terrax' yet, sadly :/

1497/1500 pts
Hammer - Stygies Battalion
Enginseer
Manipulus
3x5 Vanguards
10x Fulgurites
3x Dragoons
1x Dunerider

Anvil - Mars Battalion
Cawl
Enginseer
3x5 Rangers, 1 Arquebus each
2 Dakkabots
1 Neutronager
1 Grator

**Ideasweasel**

If it were me I’d lose the Mars Batallion

Cawl isn’t really worth the tax of buffing so few units

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe change the Mars Batallion to stygies and take 3 grators and perhaps look at tweaking things to allow for a slightly different setup. Maybe less melee and las ironstriders instead of a neutron dunecrawler

**Thairne**

You got a point there.. I tried to downscale the 2k pts to 1500, but Cawl is indeed to costly for that.
If I drop Cawl and basically go double stygies, I can replace him with a Dominus and switch the Enginseer to Daedalosus...

That leaves me with 91 points so I could swap 2x vanguard for 2x Breachers if I manage to cut a few points.

Thats a lot of S6 shooting... While I prefer to have something stronger yet (dont own any other chickens), the inconsistency of the Neutronager has caused me to throw a few dice a bit forcefully the last game

**Spera**

Spera wrote:
Ideasweasel wrote:
@Suzuteo. All aboard team transport! What would you take with the 8-900 points you have left (the first list)

Srsly, try corpuscarii, especially with deadalouses incoming. I tried it, an man its good.

Mars in a transport or Lucius?

**U02dah4**

See the fast rolling ymdc thread you may either resolve sequentially or fast roll all you cannot batch roll.

Since you cant roll infinity you must roll sequentially

Although with a dragoon its not going to be to bad a taser goad would take all day to roll sequentially

**Spera**

U02dah4 wrote:
See the fast rolling ymdc thread you may either resolve sequentially or fast roll all you cannot batch roll.

Since you cant roll infinity you must roll sequentially

Although with a dragoon its not going to be to bad a taser goad would take all day to roll sequentially

well no, You can batch roll. There is nothing to prevent that as long as you remember normal restrictions. There is no point of rolling 50 attacks at once if you target for example one model. Roll 10-20 dice and once model is dead rest of the attack is gone. Anyone who cals otherwise is either dumb or rule bending. For example its common to roll hits and wounds in batches, but then switch to rolling single dice for multi damage weapon. As long as your way of rolling doesn't change result that you could achieve by resolving one attack at once its ok. Think it this way, Rolling all attacks at once i one single batch, rolling single attack is rolling smallest batch possible, and anything in-between is still ok.

**Suzuteo**

U02dah4 wrote:
Yeah its an auto loss on anyone that uses it

Just play with a clock

I concead you have infinite hits now please roll infinite wound rolls while I wait for your clock to expire given your clock has expired before you move to damage you never even kill the knight

Technically, you can speed roll in any batch size you want, as long as it is the same weapon on the same target. So no, this rules lawyering doesn't work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thairne wrote:
I've been tinkering with that fabled "hammer and anvil" style since I tire of only shooting (and I become a bit predictable and start to get overwhelmed by guard shooting)... I'm wondering if there's something obvious I could change with this list?
Don't own any Terrax' yet, sadly :/

1497/1500 pts
Hammer - Stygies Battalion
Enginseer
Manipulus
3x5 Vanguards
10x Fulgurites
3x Dragoons
1x Dunerider

Anvil - Mars Battalion
Cawl
Enginseer
3x5 Rangers, 1 Arquebus each
2 Dakkabots
1 Neutronager
1 Grator

If you have a second or third transport, those Vanguard can be a part of your Hammer as well. Charge the transport to take OW, charge the Vanguard to apply -1T aura, then plow into them with Dragoons and Fulgurites. With +1S Canticle, your Fulgurites are wounding T4 on 2s. Then just put Acquisition stratagem on them and laugh; 2 CP per to hold an objective essentially.

6 Arquebuses is the magic number to kill most <100 point HQs.

Take 2-3 Crawlers or none at all. IMO, you should do 2x Icarus and 1x Grator, probably Stygies VIII with a Dominus and Daedalosus. (IMO, that's the new default best.) Also, Breachers are probably a good Anvil here. Though you seem to be moving more toward mechanized, and if we're dropping Cawl, it makes less sense.

Here's a sample list I created that is very close to what you've got going:

Spoiler:

--

Here are two lists I am considering testing now, both of which are Mechanized Skitarii (actually quite gratifying to hear that such an archetype now exists) that don't give up Gangbusters.

First is the Lewis Stolburg list, but with Arquebuses and Infiltrators swapped out for Hoplites in Duneriders. I also went to Stygies and cut the Dominus because the Hoplites rely on picked Canticles, which are effective for the entire army anyway:

Spoiler:

One downside is how rigid the game plan is. Hoplites go into the Duneriders and Ryza Vanguard into the Drills. The Stygies Vanguard also sort of just screen. One thing that I can do is to cut the third Crawler and put in a Dunerider, four Calivers, and downgrade the third Vanguard to a Ranger, but then I run into issues visually differentiating so many different types of infantry for an unclear advantage.

More Mark Hertel-like:

Spoiler:

In this list, Vanguard can go into the Drills or the Duneriders. This means you can drop them with the Infiltrators to shoot from behind a wall of Drills, or you can turtle up with Hoplites in the Drills. No Plasma Specialists though. I feel the Ryza Vanguard with PS + Doctrina is just such a strong counter to a lot of things. No Graia Abhor either, which is not too big a problem since there's no big units for Gangbusters that need to be protected from Doom and Jinx.

I find it absolutely hilarious how virtually everything gets crammed into five tin cans too. The army has only 14 drops; the Daedalosus and Dominus are deployed outside the transports, but the Enginseers go into the Drills.

My only problem is that I don't have enough Calivers to run this list at the moment, but that can be remedied.

**Thairne**

Thanks Suzuteo, such advice was precisely what I had hoped for

I'm just playing casually with 2 friends (Guard and harlies), so I don't need to be bleeding cutting edge, but I don't want a list that falls face first into the dirt when something is a bit different ofc.
Some of the choices in the list are a bit of a meta choice - Arquebi are basically just there to plink some wounds off of armoured sentinels e.g., characters are always out of LOS, so actual sniping will hardly happen. But those are easy to drop from the list.

I've been wondering for quite a while why Kastelans seem to have disappeared from the lists... they perform consistently well against either guard or harlequins at removing pesky infantry squads or seriously damage heavier ordenance with WoM. Neutronagers at least CAN seriously hurt heavy stuff, which I find the Grator to be lacking in. How do those lists deal with T8? And is the Grator actually useful in a anvil, since its strength is in the mobility so you move out from the dominus' aura?
Also, Icarus Crawlers are fine and dandy unless you have to shoot T7 or even T8 (such as LR), at which point Mathhammer tells me I might as well not even try .
Would you run the list the same, knowing you'd go against guard?

I also really struggle to find the points to include a second transport... if we go up to 2k, that's easy and the vanguard can get geared up.
I'd either have to drop a grator/onager or the Kastelans which at all points would hurt, but may actually be worth it for those extra plasma shots...

So a revised list would look more like this now:

Spoiler:

I'd really want to keep 2 Ranger Squads for backfield objective sitting. Depending on enemy, Neutronagers can ofc be switched to Icarus crawlers.

If I go and get me a 2nd transport (which sucks, because just yesterday I built my 3rd kit as a Grator

):

Spoiler:

**U02dah4**

Kastelans require cawl locking you into mars and are largely restrictive to castle lists which tend not to be fun to play or as good in objective based formats.

In my lists what aura now we have daedalosus and 2-3 enginseers i don't think we need a dominous and daedlous moves forward with your army

Also ive not had a problem with knights I run a crusader a squad of hoplites 3 dunecrawlers and 3 grators as my staples and these combined with a dragoon squad tend to handle them fine.

Dragoon squad hits knight A
Dunecrawlers and knight and grators if required combine fire on knight B
Hoplites are positioned to block an advance from a gallant type knight - delaying it for a turn

This is my london GT mechanicus list and ive not had a knight problem in playtesting

Spoiler:

**Thairne**

Interesting.
If I drop the Kastelans and the Dominus and rely on Daedalosus, I can run 2x Grator, 2x Onager and 2x Duneriders with the Vanguards geared with plasma and switch to a Brigade for even more CP.
So the Dragoons are there to kill T8 and stop knights? Dont they just get stomped into the dust? They' should on avg deal like 3-5 wounds on a knight and unless the Knight is on a lower profile the return swings are going to hurt.

Spoiler:

**Suzuteo**

@Thairne
Is the Grator build permanent? Because You can always be cheap like me and cannibalize the parts to make Skorpius Rhinos.

Robots are a tough sell because they are hard to fit into lists. See, AdMech has great efficiency because our early codex was written with a lot of squadroned vehicles. But there are a number of armies out there with great ways to kill big units. Tau and Eldar especially.

We have to build around our squadrons then, and Robots are a powerful but dependent squadron. They require Cawl, Manipulus, and Daedalosus to perform at their best. They also need ~8 CP devoted entirely to them. 3 Grators are also needed for non-LOS as well as an anti-air option, such as 2x Icarus Crawlers. So your best option is to take everything in a Mars Spearhead. You need Graia Skitarii to abhor Doom and Jinx, so a Mixed Battalion. Your last detachment then also needs to be a Battalion to get the necessary CP. Finally, you also need to handle counter-charging, so Stygies for Dragoons, Priests, or Hoplites. Note that if you deviate at all, you have to make major sacrifices. If you change the Mars Spearhead to a Battalion, you have to lose a Grator and the Crawlers or drop the Stygies Battalion and add yet another Mars Spearhead. If this is the case, you need to take a Mars counter-charger or put them into your Mixed unit. My solution before these mechanized concepts were proven out was a Mars Battalion, Mars Spearhead, and Mixed Battalion with Ryza Drills serving as deep-strikers or counter-chargers.

@U02dah4
I find that to be a mistaken belief. I think Robots are actually strongest in the objective missions. This is because objectives don't move. They are weakest in the manoeuvre warfare department, which is what the mechanized list excels at. Once you root your Robots, you simply will not able to shift your fireline to constantly pressure the army. So in a matchup where the enemy is forced to come into LOS, you have a disgusting advantage. But in matchups where he can play defensively and attack from afar or from behind LOS blockers, it can be a struggle.

**Vineheart01**

i cant tell if im just playing crawlers wrong or if im just insanely unlucky.
2x icarus 1 neutron with a dom around as Stygies. Neutron fires at whatever vehicle i can, usually a random dread or predator, icarus i usually dump into low toughness multiwound models (bikes, nobz, termies) since i swear my opponents know if im using admech instead of orks even though i say nothing and never bring a flier when i got my icarus crawlers lol.

They never do anything other than draw fire. I wanna say between the 3 of them they kill ~200pts throughout the game, never as an alpha attack either so what they killed still did some damage. Part of me wants to just swap to all neutrons but i feel like soon as i do that im gonna face minimal vehicle lists lol.
Is there a stratagem im not using that would help them? I know they are affected by the +2 to hit strat but i tend to dump that on my autocannon ironstriders since its more shots benefiting from it due to being a squadron.

Knights are kinda rare in my area, except for the 1 monoknight guy (which tbh is not a threat because he doesnt know half his rules very well)

**U02dah4**

Suzuteo wrote:
@Thairne
Is the Grator build permanent? Because You can always be cheap like me and cannibalize the parts to make Skorpius Rhinos.

Robots are a tough sell because they are hard to fit into lists. See, AdMech has great efficiency because our early codex was written with a lot of squadroned vehicles. But there are a number of armies out there with great ways to kill big units. Tau and Eldar especially.

We have to build around our squadrons then, and Robots are a powerful but dependent squadron. They require Cawl, Manipulus, and Daedalosus to perform at their best. They also need ~8 CP devoted entirely to them. 3 Grators are also needed for non-LOS as well as an anti-air option, such as 2x Icarus Crawlers. So your best option is to take everything in a Mars Spearhead. You need Graia Skitarii to abhor Doom and Jinx, so a Mixed Battalion. Your last detachment then also needs to be a Battalion to get the necessary CP. Finally, you also need to handle counter-charging, so Stygies for Dragoons, Priests, or Hoplites. Note that if you deviate at all, you have to make major sacrifices. If you change the Mars Spearhead to a Battalion, you have to lose a Grator and the Crawlers or drop the Stygies Battalion and add yet another Mars Spearhead. If this is the case, you need to take a Mars counter-charger or put them into your Mixed unit. My solution before these mechanized concepts were proven out was a Mars Battalion, Mars Spearhead, and Mixed Battalion with Ryza Drills serving as deep-strikers or counter-chargers.

@U02dah4
I find that to be a mistaken belief. I think Robots are actually strongest in the objective missions. This is because objectives don't move. They are weakest in the manoeuvre warfare department, which is what the mechanized list excels at. Once you root your Robots, you simply will not able to shift your fireline to constantly pressure the army. So in a matchup where the enemy is forced to come into LOS, you have a disgusting advantage. But in matchups where he can play defensively and attack from afar or from behind LOS blockers, it can be a struggle.

i play a lot of etc style with 6 objectives in the game you break your robots legs they sit on one. And may solidly hold it but that leaves 5 they don't interact with

**Thairne**

@Suzuteo
Thanks for the explanation! As said, I'm not that cutting edge and I basically never run into the FLGS for a random game (bunch of WAAC, heat and cramped space) but I understand your reasoning. If my opponents ever TRULY branch out and play different styles, I'll take your advice to heart!

@Vineheart I feel ya.
I've run 2 or 3 Onagers consistently for all of 8th in all my lists, either as Neutron or Icarus (I wonder if the other options ever become viable).
I've had one Onager plop Leman Russ like it was nothing on T1 and had 2 Onagers dealing not a single wound to one for 2 turns.
Mathhammering says that shooting a Russ without buffs and rerolls has a 35% to whiff; even if you buff him up there's a ~20% chance of doing nothing. The added layer of RNG with Heavy D3 shots really hurts and the icarus suffers from the -1 to hit if no FLY are nearby.
The wide array from 0 to 3 wounds with 18 damage total is just too wide and errs on the lower end more often than not.
With the new Hammer&Anvil style I try to adopt I might drop the Onagers all together and may even go for a Cybernetica Cohort...

**Vineheart01**

Yeah i noticed that.
Its nice that they cant do less than 3 damage but i think ive had them do more than that...once? Especially when i never seem to roll a 3 for shots.
If it wasnt for the fact that my admech army is heavily limited right now (trying to not assemble anything unless its painted) i might just can them. I have 1 skorpius ready to go and another in a box still as well as the 6 robots from the apoc box still untouched. But i am not doing what i did with orks lol....90% assembled before i even painted a single model..big mistake as i find it difficult to paint stuff i dont have an urge to put on the table lol

**VladimirHerzog**

Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah i noticed that.
Its nice that they cant do less than 3 damage but i think ive had them do more than that...once? Especially when i never seem to roll a 3 for shots.
If it wasnt for the fact that my admech army is heavily limited right now (trying to not assemble anything unless its painted) i might just can them. I have 1 skorpius ready to go and another in a box still as well as the 6 robots from the apoc box still untouched. But i am not doing what i did with orks lol....90% assembled before i even painted a single model..big mistake as i find it difficult to paint stuff i dont have an urge to put on the table lol

Yeah, neutron laser suffers heavily from the "lascannon syndrome", i'd much rather have a -1 to hit but more shots.

**Suzuteo**

Neutron Crawlers are pretty bad now. Struggles against minus to hit, invulnerable saves, and tendency to overkill. Las Striders are much better. They can squadron for Doctrina and have better volume for points. S9 AP-3 DD6 is a solid profile for anti-tank shooting (a lot of 2+/5++ profiles out there).

Icarus Crawlers are good against Tau, Eldar, Nids, Chaos Daemons, and Custodes. They can also be turned on infantry, though Mars Crawlers are better for this (Daedalosus helps, and I find Cawl to be less mandatory now that Icarus Crawlers hit ground at 3+). They definitely are a unit that accumulates damage though. They are very tough and weather return fire well, especially as Stygies.

**axisofentropy**

Did we talk about the AdMech armies that did well at NOVA?

**Vineheart01**

Ironically, all armies i rarely see lol.
Harlies show up fairly often but even though they also have no wheel/track based vehicles they still are mostly on foot anyway, and the things on foot dont "fly" despite acting like it which is annoying.
1k Sons, vanilla marines of most flavors, orks (to which i am the ONLY dakkajet/wazbom lover so i never see those), and even sisters are more common than eldar/tau for me lol.
Im in a weird meta.

**Suzuteo**

axisofentropy wrote:
Did we talk about the AdMech armies that did well at NOVA?

Yeah. I have been a huge fan of the Stolburg list for a few months now. My version had Dakkabots though:

Spoiler:

Basically, my initial playthroughs found that the original really struggled against horde; once they got past the Drills, it was over. And while two Drills and Infiltrators let you instantly kill a Knight, it probably was overinvesting in this capability. So I cut one of the Ryza Drill combos, added Hoplites as a screen and counter-charger, and also my usual Swiss Army Knife choices in the Mixed detachment.

Recent changes in Space Marines are making me reconsider this strategy somewhat. If games become a lot more mobile, it can be hard for the Robots to keep up. I doubt most Marines will just come out into the open to be shot. Lots of shenanigans with Drop Pods and Rhinos as well. My most recent list has been Stygies Skitarii with 3 Grators, 2 Crawlers, 2 Duneriders w/ Hoplites, 4 Dragoons, 4 Las Striders. Lots of shooting and moving.

**axisofentropy**

Be worried about Impulsors. Ever have Wave Serpents tag your metal Bois? Impulsors do that so much better.

**Iago40k**

Suzuteo wrote:
axisofentropy wrote:
Did we talk about the AdMech armies that did well at NOVA?

Yeah. I have been a huge fan of the Stolburg list for a few months now. My version had Dakkabots though:

Spoiler:

Mars Battalion Detachment - 1244

HQ - 280
1x Belisarius Cawl - Warlord
1x Tech-Priest Manipulus

Troop - 115
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Vanguard - 5x Radium Carbine
5x Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Transport - 219
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider
1x Skorpius Dunerider

Elite - 180
10x Secutarii Hoplite - 10x Mag-Inverter Shield
10x Secutarii Hoplite - 10x Mag-Inverter Shield

Heavy Support - 440
4x Kastelan Robot - 12x Heavy Phopshor Blaster

Mars Spearhead Detachment - 383

HQ - 50
1x Daedalosus

Heavy Support - 333
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon

Mixed Battalion Detachment - 382

HQ - 60
1x Lucius Tech-Priest Enginseer
1x Ryza Tech-Priest Enginseer

Troop - 188
10x Ryza Skitarii Vanguard - 7x Radium Carbine, 3x Plasma Caliver, Enhanced Data-tether
5x Graia Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle
5x Graia Skitarii Ranger - 5x Galvanic Rifle

Transport - 134
1x Ryza Termite Assault Drill - 2x Stormbolter

Total: 1999 points
14 CP

Basically, my initial playthroughs found that the original really struggled against horde; once they got past the Drills, it was over. And while two Drills and Infiltrators let you instantly kill a Knight, it probably was overinvesting in this capability. So I cut one of the Ryza Drill combos, added Hoplites as a screen and counter-charger, and also my usual Swiss Army Knife choices in the Mixed detachment.

Recent changes in Space Marines are making me reconsider this strategy somewhat. If games become a lot more mobile, it can be hard for the Robots to keep up. I doubt most Marines will just come out into the open to be shot. Lots of shenanigans with Drop Pods and Rhinos as well. My most recent list has been Stygies Skitarii with 3 Grators, 2 Crawlers, 2 Duneriders w/ Hoplites, 4 Dragoons, 4 Las Striders. Lots of shooting and moving.

I gotta ask: why the drill with plasma dudes? 3 plasma weapons even if ryza, are barely enough to kill anything Id think. In a matchup where vect is involved even less. Could you tell me the reasoning behind it?

**Suzuteo**

You can deep strike them within 12" of a flyer, disembark immediately, use Doctrina and Plasma Specialists, and blow up the target with D3 Melta Cutter, 8 Stormbolter, 21 Radium Carbine, and 6 Plasma Caliver shots that hit on 2s, wound on 2s, and deal 3 damage each. Stolburg ran two of these, so on turns two and three, he can just delete units of choice. The Vanguard die the next turn probably, but the Drill remains as a powerful anti-vehicle model.

**Iago40k**

Suzuteo wrote:
You can deep strike them within 12" of a flyer, disembark immediately, use Doctrina and Plasma Specialists, and blow up the target with D3 Melta Cutter, 8 Stormbolter, 21 Radium Carbine, and 6 Plasma Caliver shots that hit on 2s, wound on 2s, and deal 3 damage each. Stolburg ran two of these, so on turns two and three, he can just delete units of choice. The Vanguard die the next turn probably, but the Drill remains as a powerful anti-vehicle model.

allright, cheers.

So I will play a tournament soon and since i dont have the 2 duneriders i need for the list i would like to play, I have the following list in mind:

Spoiler:

works great so far, yet I am not sure on the dakkabots and thinking about trading them for a drill with either fulgurites or corpuscarii or even hoplits. the ryza idea is neat but I thik i need something besides the dragoons for a counterpunch. any ideas? I got a lot of cp atm and for my taste a bit too many rangers but somehnw i cannot set my mind on a build that makes sense.....

**Suzuteo**

Yeah, Stygies Dakkabots are underwhelming. I think a Drill and Fulgurites if you want something to complement the Dragoons. That or a third Crawler with snipers or more Breachers.

I personally still like Cawl for this sort of list. RRAll and the consistent Shroudpsalm is what makes Breachers tick. Of course, Daedalosus helps, but he makes Dominus value comparable to Cawl for BS3, not BS4.

**Iago40k**

cheers suzu. With all the Tau armies that are running around I think Stygies is just plain better. With the Grators, Manipulus and now Daedalosus I didnt had any Problems deleting those units I wanted to.
I think the biggest plus for Cawl is his canticles manipulation at this point. Thats why i try to get as many CP as possible if playing without him. Of course his rerolls are still insanely good but very often I just overkill a lot of things. Plus I like to play more input than output based so he becomes even less of an appeal to me.

**Suzuteo**

Yeah. Lots of Tau in my area. I have found that Breachers are not that great against them. Lots of S5-6 shooting, and Battlesuits are not vehicles for some reason. Sigh.

This is actually what I was running before coming out to Tokyo:

Spoiler:

I usually just shove my Dragoons and Hoplites into his face. He has to spend his entire first turn or two killing them, or I will get into melee with his Broadsides and GG. Meanwhile, all my tanks are just concentrating fire into one battlesuit at a time; they also shoot at the Drones whenever possible, as I have to kill them anyway, and they're relatively easy to kill with high volume fire.