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2020/07/23 16:38:38
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Mariongodspeed wrote: I don’t know, every time I look at the custom Forge World stuff I feel like you give up too much (Forge World canticles, Forge World stratagems, etc...) for them to be attractive. I’d rather have the +1 str canticle from Mars on multiple groups of Ironstriders, especially if you’re using the -1 AP at half range aura.
If you try out the custom forge worlds stuff let us know how well it works for you. I WANT it to be a decent option, but I’m not convinced it actually IS one.
The real benefits of the +1 str canticle are on Breachers with Heavy Arc Rifles and anything with Heavy Stubbers. When I realised that the +1 to Wound from the target pattern identified strat, numbers-wise, gives Ballistarii the same benefit as the canticle against a T7 target and even more benefit against less tough targets, I stopped really worrying about fitting a Mars detachment in. You still only really take Mars for Cawl and more reliable canticles. Don't get me wrong that Mars canticle is good and using BOTH the canticle and strat on your autocannons gives you an equal cumulative bonus. Especially as your ironstriders/onagers can also be given +2(1) to hit without any supporting mechanisms.
Breachers on the other hand benefit enormously from the +1 str but again its comparable to the custom FW trans node power cores dogma, +1 str edges it a bit but it depends on your target. Against vehicles your +1 str is better, against anything else the exploding 5-6 to hit gives you a net 100% shots hit on average. But that also works on their melee weapons which the +1 str canticle does nothing for.
If you're taking robots they obviously benefit from the +1 str, but your main targets there aren't all that tough. You're not really shooting them at vehicles or monsters and if you are you're probably using WoM which makes the str bonus somewhat irrelevant.
The +1 str is like all the other Mars tactics, its simple, straight forward, you dont have to think about it much and its effective. But boy is it bland. This is the worst thing I find about the way they've designed our army at the moment, the bonuses they keep giving us are all just amplifying the same thing, which makes us predictable and one-dimensional. The other options are getting better, but most of them rely yet again on strategms or buffing a single element at the expense of everything else.
My worry at the moment is that our best battle tank is now our least efficient. Even the Stratorapter has more to offer than a Skorpius for the same cost! So I'm busy trying to come up with ways to include reliable anti-armour that wont fold in the wind and doesn't cost the earth. My anti-armour was going to be 4 x ironstriders with autocannons, 2 x Icarus onagers and then 3 x 4 Breachers. but without trans node power cores or the +1 str canticle Breachers are really up against it imo. They're our only tough infantry but they need a whole lot of support to get stuff done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 17:28:02
2020/07/23 19:17:09
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I plan on trying out the trans node power core breachers once I finish assembling & painting enough Kataphrons (I only had 9 before now and I usually ran them as Plasma Destroyers). It’s the one custom Forge World trait that seemed to be worth the trade off as far as I saw.
I’d just begun using Mars (and Cawl) after Engine War came out. I’d historically run Stygies VIII but the +1 str on Icarus Crawlers, Autocannon Balistarii, and Belleros Disintegrators was too good to pass up.
I guess I really just wish they’d have given us a couple custom canticle options for the custom forge worlds, to get them closer to on par with the existing forge worlds. Like you pointed out, it seems all our interesting options only buff a single element of the army at the expense of everything else.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 19:18:54
2020/07/23 21:18:37
Subject: Re:Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Aaranis wrote: Wondering if the custom Forge World with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles as primary and the secondary that gives rerolls to hit at half range for Cognis guns might be cool in Ironstriders-heavy lists. I mean if you use 2 or 3 units and can't be close to Cawl all the time it gives them more accuracy, and synergises well with the trait to have +1 AP at half-range.
Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
Aaranis wrote: Wondering if the custom Forge World with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles as primary and the secondary that gives rerolls to hit at half range for Cognis guns might be cool in Ironstriders-heavy lists. I mean if you use 2 or 3 units and can't be close to Cawl all the time it gives them more accuracy, and synergises well with the trait to have +1 AP at half-range.
Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
2020/07/23 21:41:59
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Mariongodspeed wrote: I plan on trying out the trans node power core breachers once I finish assembling & painting enough Kataphrons (I only had 9 before now and I usually ran them as Plasma Destroyers). It’s the one custom Forge World trait that seemed to be worth the trade off as far as I saw.
I’d just begun using Mars (and Cawl) after Engine War came out. I’d historically run Stygies VIII but the +1 str on Icarus Crawlers, Autocannon Balistarii, and Belleros Disintegrators was too good to pass up.
I guess I really just wish they’d have given us a couple custom canticle options for the custom forge worlds, to get them closer to on par with the existing forge worlds. Like you pointed out, it seems all our interesting options only buff a single element of the army at the expense of everything else.
I dunno, as much as I want to like Breachers, 420pts for 12 not-outstanding models feels like a big chunk. Breachers are the only thing worth building around for trans node power cores imo. And you still need daedalosus and a dominus/cawl nearby. Its just another all-eggs one basket approach. We're just crippled by average choices we need to buff the crap out of to make useful, which creates an inherent flaw in all our lists. The only things we have that don't need immense support are Balistarii and Onager. Raiders and Breachers feel like the only things we have that can get to the Midfield and have any hope of holding it. Short of taking overpriced transports full of infantry that die even faster!
The other thing that bugs me about the custom FW dogmas is some of them are just plain bad. Like not 'niche useful', just awful. All the time. You'd never pick them ever. +1" movement for Kataphrons, and Onagers? Wtf! RANGERS can move 6" at the start of the battle. Pointless. The +6" range on rapid-fire weapons might sound good but we have like 3 of those and none of them are worth building around. I'd LOVE to hear the designers commentary around the choices of those abilities, please please tell me what wisdom you had in your head where that crap is ever useful lol.
I've consider Accelerated Actuators combined with a Ryza patrol for the Ryza canticle that gives melee +1ap. +2ap for every melee weapon is potentially decent on stuff like Raiders and Sterylizors that already have mostly ap -1 already and a lot of attacks. Just a shame you'd be then wasting the re-roll melee wounds of 1 on the other detachment. I guess you could put Plasma destroyers in your Ryza patrol, that way you do actually get something out of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Corpuscarii with ap-4 melee attacks lol
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/23 21:44:08
2020/07/23 21:55:05
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
2020/07/23 22:17:58
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
Alas, Boats only fit 10 Hoplites.
2020/07/23 22:32:52
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
Mariongodspeed wrote:I don’t know, every time I look at the custom Forge World stuff I feel like you give up too much (Forge World canticles, Forge World stratagems, etc...) for them to be attractive. I’d rather have the +1 str canticle from Mars on multiple groups of Ironstriders, especially if you’re using the -1 AP at half range aura.
If you try out the custom forge worlds stuff let us know how well it works for you. I WANT it to be a decent option, but I’m not convinced it actually IS one.
Oh I'll definitely tell you all about my experiences as soon as I can get a game ! But as I said I'm not trying to be overly competitive in this friendly tourney, I've changed my mindset about the game to be happier about it and I think it's working.
Kanluwen wrote:The custom Forge World stuff works out well if you build for it from the outset.
You say the truth, but I'd even spread that to most regular Dogmas. It's just that Mars is so blatantly favoured by the rules that we end up relying mostly on it to do the job, because it's straight-forward and works well enough with every list.
I'm reading Engine War again and finding a few things that I believe are interesting to at least look into. I remember the earlier discussion about Ruststalkers, and while doing my Radium shenanigans I noticed AP was really important (I mean I never noticed it THAT MUCH before, woe me) and made them way deadlier. One of the Ruststalkers' weaknesses is their lack of AP and reliance on 6s to Wound. Playing Ryza can soften these weaknesses: Ryza's dogma gives rerolls of 1s to Wound in CC to fish for 6s more reliably, and their new Canticle gives +1AP.
I think building a list around an agressive CC force could be interesting to talk about. I even see Sulphurhounds as useful in this scenario to bring the Toughness debuff to key targets, and with AP-1 they can be a bit more dangerous as well. As for transportation, I noticed that you can fit 10 Ruststalkers in a Dunerider, so that's a way to deliver them. Can go bonkers on them and go 3x10 for 420 pts and 60W (boats not included). Suddenly 31 attacks at S4-5 AP-1 that can get mortal wounds look worth looking into, considering this edition favours assault-y lists. Plus, the Ol' Ryzaphrons still work somewhat, or boats filled with 4 plasma Vanguards. Bonus if you charge with them to give the debuff and wound Marines on 4+ at AP-1 with their carbines' butts.
All this to say that we have loads of interesting options and even if they're not obviously the most easy and competitive way to play, they might surprise people when playing against an unconventional AdMech list. I'll continue digging.
Suzuteo wrote:Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
Ah if I had the budget to make these kinds of list come true I'd play this in a heartbeat. But yeah, rule of three. Playing 2x10 or 3x10 Hoplites in boats is an old dream of mine but I'm still wary buying FW considering their rules have Schrodinger's Cat's aura all over them (will they exist tomorrow ?) and the hefty pricetag of these it's not planned for now.
40K: Adeptus Mechanicus
AoS: Nighthaunts
2020/07/23 23:28:27
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
But not fit in 6 transports
Also just realised Breachers can get free WoM with a HO Warlord trait against vehicles, not exactly swimming in shots, but still, free WoM without Mars! I think I'm back on the Breacher train. +1 to hit from Daedalossus, RR1 from Dominus with Genetor and Artisan from a Manipulus, as well as a +6" on their range, has all kinds of possibilities if every model somehow managed to be within 6" of all 3 of them lol. I think there's enough flexibility for them to move their castle around or split up one tech priest to each and if I need one squad to hold an objective The Dominus with Genetor should give them a lot of resilience. I know how hard it is to remove a squad of plague marines, and these have more wounds!
So Right now I think my starting 1500pt 9th ed list is gonna be something like:
Ah if I had the budget to make these kinds of list come true I'd play this in a heartbeat. But yeah, rule of three. Playing 2x10 or 3x10 Hoplites in boats is an old dream of mine but I'm still wary buying FW considering their rules have Schrodinger's Cat's aura all over them (will they exist tomorrow ?) and the hefty pricetag of these it's not planned for now.
I’d certainly wait to see what the new Forge World index does before buying any more from them, but honestly the hoplites aren’t that expensive. $70 for 10 models is cheaper than most of our stuff, and you can recoup a bit of that cost by selling the Transuranic Arquebus and Plasma Caliver that comes with the skitarii (or just buy the upgrade sprue if you have extra Skitarii laying around unassembled).
Admech was my first army (only 2 years ago) and our range was so limited I didn’t hesitate to buy hoplites and drills from Forge World. (Not knowing they difference between GW and Forge World at the time). I’ve gotta say they worked out well for me.
2020/07/24 02:53:36
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
I just realized this breaks the rule of three anyway. So you would need to swap out 30 Hoplites for 30 Vanguard with Plasma Calivers or something. But man. The run and gun madness seems hilarious.
Pft.
6x 10 Hoplites can become 3x 20 Hoplites as easy as pie!
Alas, Boats only fit 10 Hoplites.
Hoplites don't need boats.
Not kidding. I've never ran mine in boats, have done well with them.
2020/07/24 09:08:55
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
@Kanluwen
IMO Boats and Skitarii complement one another. The Boats provide supporting fire, protect them from shooting, and also LOS block for them. The Skitarii deal with fighting and provide ObSec.
In other words, a Boat with 10x Hoplites is worth more than 2x Boats or 2x10 Hoplites
2020/07/24 12:50:41
Subject: Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes
The boat is still my go to for Priests, Vanguard, and Hoplites, but the Drill isn't bad either and can fit a few extra guys in it. The points between the boat and drill are much closer after the increase as well.
Aaranis wrote: Wondering if the custom Forge World with the 6+ FNP for Vehicles as primary and the secondary that gives rerolls to hit at half range for Cognis guns might be cool in Ironstriders-heavy lists. I mean if you use 2 or 3 units and can't be close to Cawl all the time it gives them more accuracy, and synergises well with the trait to have +1 AP at half-range.
Or you can spam nothing but Boats and Hoplites. Bury your opponents in expensive plastic.
Yeah, I think that's a huge design oversight on the boats. It'd have been so easy to future-proof it like every other Marine vehicle with 12. That might get changed with a new codex. The Transvector holds 6 rather than 5, so maybe it's something they're aware of.
But hey, I footslog my infantry so it doesn't bother me too much.
Fortunately they’re not mutually exclusive. I run both, usually one drill to carry a couple support characters with 10 Fulgurites or hoplites alongside a couple boats.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang. 
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys