Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes

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**U02dah4**

Suzuteo wrote:
@U02dah4
Oh, I agree that the meta is very nascent. And my thinking is similar, but slightly different:

1) Mechanized
Tanks and transports. This is definitely more of what we saw in 8E. Very much about deleting key threats, but also has some way to control objectives and push into the enemy deployment. AdMech is pretty much in this category by default.

2) Elites
A very well-rounded, but small army. Custodes and Death Guard immediately come to mind. My friends report that these lists give them the most trouble because they give up so few secondaries. I don't think we can compete in this meta directly; our elites are bullies, not fighters.

3) Spam
Spam highly efficient troops and win by piling them onto objectives faster than your opponent can shoot them off of them. AdMech can do this through Raiders, Breachers, and a few deep strike or artillery units to delete anti-infantry threats.

--

Anyhow, mortal wound spam and high volume shooting is just as good in 9E as 8E, perhaps even better because of our Engine War buffs. I think #2 is actually going to be the biggest threat. #3 might be strong in the short term, but I don't think it will last very long. I think Cawlstar is the meta list because it performs well against these two options. On paper, anyway. My tank line list would probably where I would go for #1.

Denial was a big thing in 8th itc I don't think its on the same scale in 9th.

I'm building most of my admech/soup list to not give more than 12 pts away in shooting objectives.

Your going to play lists where you can shoot for 15 and thats a bonus but as you point out there will be a number where you can't so you want your lists to be able to max or close to max secondaries without resorting to shooting. 3 will dominate over 2 for that reason

**Aaranis**

Ah new FAQ: they changed AGAIN the Look Out, SIr! rules and now we can hide behind a <10W Vehicle/Monster as before. Good change.

**Suzuteo**

Aaranis wrote:
Ah new FAQ: they changed AGAIN the Look Out, SIr! rules and now we can hide behind a <10W Vehicle/Monster as before. Good change.

Lol. So I guess I can take While We Stand and pick Cawl and two Grators? =

Heavy Flamers went up to 15. So Drills are 140 now. Guess they caught the mistake.

And the Power Maul stayed a Power Maul. Hm.

**Aaranis**

The Power Maul is the weapon of the Sulphurhound Alpha, that's why.

**U02dah4**

Suzuteo wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
Ah new FAQ: they changed AGAIN the Look Out, SIr! rules and now we can hide behind a <10W Vehicle/Monster as before. Good change.

Lol. So I guess I can take While We Stand and pick Cawl and two Grators? =

Heavy Flamers went up to 15. So Drills are 140 now. Guess they caught the mistake.

And the Power Maul stayed a Power Maul. Hm.

Seems like a bad call your never protecting the graters when they are worth 5vp.

That mission is only good with cheap infantry horde lists where you can play protect the enginseer without effecting performance much

**Suzuteo**

U02dah4 wrote:
Seems like a bad call your never protecting the graters when they are worth 5vp.

That mission is only good with cheap infantry horde lists where you can play protect the enginseer without effecting performance much

People I know report that it's a good pick because it's usually an all-or-nothing result. Given Grators are tough, can hide out of LOS, can be repaired, and there are a multitude of other high priority threats, it can actually be quite difficult to kill them. If people get past all of my assault teams and other gunline assets to kill Cawl and my Grators in the deployment zone, then I am probably going to lose anyway.

**U02dah4**

Maybe your terrain is different but with only ruins being obscuring and most terrain having holes in it and no gf LOS blocking its almost impossible to keep a model as big as a grator out of LOS especially with players taking high mobility lists.

In addition if your hiding out of LOS your not benefitting from the full firepower of 15% of your list which is going to hurt across the game

Also relying on your opponent to target other units may work against weaker opponents but stronger opponents will be more than happy to kill them at 5vp a piece especially as your probably vulnerable to bring it down making it more of an 8 vp swing

Its a good mission if you build to it. If you have zero vehicles so 3 cheap characters become your targets which you can actually hide in terrain and protect through other units and by losing the firepower of an engineer your not really costing anything

**Vineheart01**

Ruins flatout block LoS if its 5" tall now.
Just dont park the grator INSIDE it and nobody can shoot you, even if theres a bigass doorway where youre clearly visible.
Its a bit easier to sneak around the side sometimes when you arent hugging the wall but its still forcing a lot of movement to happen instead of being gunlined down.

Personally im not a fan of hiding the grator because that mortar alone is not worth the pricetag. Its got a lot of dakka thats not being used if the grator is hiding.

**U02dah4**

Yes and if their are only two ruins on the board and the rest of the terrain is some combination of: craters, woods, industrial structures, ruined walls, hills and battlefield debris.

As I said one type of terrain has obscured

If its not a ruin heavy board mobile armies will just move round and shoot you when they don't have to shoot through terrain

E.g. If a big L ruin and you can't be in it your always exposed on 3 sides unless a separate ruin blocks a different angle

Assault armies will just run through it your far more vulnerable

**Vineheart01**

Speculation:

Powerswords for marines are getting +1str apparently. Since they didnt mention its been rebranded, its probably safe to assume all powerswords are that way.

Infiltrators w/ Powerswords, unless they get a price hyke, feel a lot meaner now as they just crossed that strength threshold to hurt most things very reliably.

**Suzuteo**

@U02dah4
Are we forgetting how hard it is to kill a Grator? I mean, sure, if the guy is bringing a Castellan or is some flavor of Eldar or Tau that is can easily get into your backline, don't pick While We Stand. But in many matchups, it sounds like a solid choice.

@Vineheart01
Imagine if you had the choice to immediately gain 15 VP in exchange for not shooting anything but the Mortar. What would you do?

**U02dah4**

um not very its like the only vehicle in the codex without an invul save. I mean as long your opponent is some sort of astartes, Knight, custodes, admech, guard, sob, elder, tau necron chaos, GSC or orks its tissue paper.

(I admit sisters of silence may find it a challenge as will players who stuck with nids through 7th and 8th but their a special type of person)

A lot of comp armies can kill a questoris Knight in 1 turn that has 24w and an invul save and often a 2+ not based on cover

As covered its too big a surface area a model to fully hide unless your board is 90% ruin and its squishy it won't stand much. all I need is a line that doesn't go over a ruin.

I mean one turn of 3 neutron onagers without buffs, or 6 dakka bots without buffs (in double fire) or 1 knight crusader or 20 hoplites coming on from a board edge without buffs, or 30 vannila vanguard for 2 turns without buffs etc etc

All of those can be in position to kill it t3 at the latest where ever you are on the board unless your literally sealed in a corner behind a ruin but not in it

**Suzuteo**

Come on. I'm not saying Grators are indestructible; nothing can survive an entire army focusing fire on it. Indeed, the fact that Knights cannot hide behind ruins is the primary reason why they are actually less survivable than <18W models.

Yes. It is very hard to draw a line across a long distance without running into ruins if you position right behind them. That is one of the key takeaways of 9E. It is a lot easier to hide, but also a lot more punishing to not engage your opponent. And it's not as if my opponent can afford to totally ignore the rest of my firebase and assault teams as well. With Dakkabots, it is easy to cover sight lines for two objectives. (Still very difficult to shoot into my opponent's deployment like I used to be able to.)

But yeah, it is dependent on terrain. But if you're on Planet Bowling Ball, you would just not take that secondary.

**U02dah4**

I think one of the key take aways of 9th is its a lot harder if not impossible to hide large vehicles.

Things now classified as industrial structures and blocking los now don't while ruin walls only block true los so shame if they have holes in

So dense terrain boards of forests and industrial buildings give minimal los blocking.

Where their are ruins even if you have a nova L style long ruin (best case scenario) your still open on 3 sides and from across the board 2/3 of your opponents army will be able to draw a line not going over obscuring terrain

And yes small thing like engineers can effectively hide from LOS. They can also be surrounded by units that have to die first.

Whats tougher than killing a greator having to kill multiple units just to target the enginseer

**Suzuteo**

Downside to using characters for the While We Stand is that you cannot really use any vehicles. Lol.

**U02dah4**

Suzuteo wrote:
Downside to using characters for the While We Stand is that you cannot really use any vehicles. Lol.

Absolutely its a mission you build to and you have to balance that against not running vehicles.

Even then it may not be the best choice as that horde list has other choices.

Personally at the team tournament I'm going to in September
im considering it in 2/5 rounds as my 3rd choice and only if a kill mission is not available.

**Octovol**

Ya know I'm only just coming to realise the power of those Fusilave bombs. I mean it's only D3 against a vehicle/riptide but once you're out of large model count units or there are some key characacter/vehicles left: it ignores saviour protocols, ignores cloud of flies, ignores lookout sir. Not to mention cant be charged by non-fly is -1 to hit, -1 to damage and its movement and mobility means it can be in and out of harms way.

The Archeopter is about the second toughest vehicle we have after Onager, maybe even equal to considering the -1 to hit vs more wounds and invuln.

Edit: Ignores LoS as well.

**DarkHound**

It still only does 1D6 4+ for a single mortal wound against characters. And it's not actually D3 mortals to vehicles/monsters, it's 3D6 4+ per mortal which is way, way worse. Your odds of 3 mortals on D3 are 33% which go down to 12.5% on 3D6 4+. Your 33% minimum 1 damage becomes a 12.5% chance for 0 damage. Your average damage comes down from 2 to 1.3.

Spending 150 points to do about 1 mortal wound is a really bad deal. I think the Fusilave is great, but only good when it can roll 10D6 for bombs. That means vehicle squadrons of 3, or squads of 10. If an opponent doesn't have either, the Fusilave doesn't have much to do but block movement.

It's going to be interesting to see how the new 2W Marines shake up Astartes list building. As it stands, Fusilaves are hot garbage against Marine lists, which are composed of 3 or 5 man squads with multiple wounds. If cheaper Tac marines means they field 10 man squads, then at least the Fusilaves will have a target.

**Ideasweasel**

Hey folks.

Anyone know how flyers - flying off the board works when they return? Are they free to fly off into strategic reserves. And when they fly back are they allowed a movement phase or do they plop back in after phase?

**DarkHound**

It's actually a little convoluted because the rule is spread out over 3 different sections. They can leave the board, no problem. Then they actually return on the next turn basically like they are deepstriking. They just get placed anywhere on the board, in any orientation, more than 9" from enemy models. They count as having moved and cannot make a charge move. This means the Fusilave can't bomb anything if it has to leave the board, and infantry can't disembark from a returning Transvector. Since our aircraft can make 180 degree turns, we should never have to leave the board.

I don't think the rule has any strategic benefits, I just think it's less punishing for less maneuverable aircraft. You lose a turn of action rather than the entire vehicle.

**Suzuteo**

U02dah4 wrote:
Absolutely its a mission you build to and you have to balance that against not running vehicles.

Even then it may not be the best choice as that horde list has other choices.

Personally at the team tournament I'm going to in September
im considering it in 2/5 rounds as my 3rd choice and only if a kill mission is not available.

In any case, back on topic.

I saw that Orks won 3rd and 1st recently:
https://spikeybits.com/2020/08/top-3-9th-edition-40k-army-lists-warzone-giga-bites-iv.html

The 3rd place list was a Vehicles and Transports army. Given our tanks are wayyyy scarier than theirs, with superior firepower and durability, as well as comparable speed, I am sure that we have a viable option here.

But the fact that Chaos and the winning Orks list were both Spam lists (Tzaangors and Boyz backed by characters and heavies) points to a need for us to have firepower specialized large numbers of infantry. So I think Dakkabots are still the way to go. Push up to objectives in transports while positioning the Dakkabots to pop out and gun down their army, then remain rooted in place to cover approaches; as you said, unless there are Nova L's or some large obscuring feature in the center of the table, it is trivially easy for whichever side has superior firepower to control the midboard. Constantly pressure them with Grators and Ballistarii sniping the angles.

**Aaranis**

Do you guys reckon there's still a place for Rangers with Arquebuses ? I'm thinking the usual squad of 5 with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex. Haven't played a game yet so I'm wondering if they're easier to use or the opposite, and if the targeting rules against Characters make them redundant or not.

EDIT: Also just thought about that: Mars +1S Canticle makes them S8 AP-2 Dd3, wounding T4 on 2s looks appealing to me. The number of times I've rolled 2s to wound...

**Suzuteo**

@Aaranis
I also considered them. But the problem is that we cannot move them while making the best use of them. It is important in 9E for infantry to be in the midboard, fighting over objectives.

**Aaranis**

Yeah but there's always a small portion of the army not going to the objectives, all the times I've used them they never moved an inch. I deployed them on a high position so as to cover the field and threaten any character going through. Either my opponent kill them or he have to think his moves differently. Had two units like this usually and the rest of my infantry went for objectives.

**Vineheart01**

i dont see running the ork tactic being very valid for admech.
Orks are hybrid, even their crappy melee is still good enough to do something. And buggies are way faster than admech stuff.
Except the Dragoon/Fistbot, admech vehicles blow a fat one in melee and our ways of falling back and shooting are warlord or dogma-canticle locked.

When i run buggy lists as orks i actually want you to charge them because that generally over-extends your neck for my slower, deadlier melee behind the buggies to catch you. Nothing in admech rings a similar bell to me.

**Aaranis**

I'm going to do some maths tonight to see if playing Ryza is worth it. I really like the AP-1 Canticle, and as it gives help to plasma weapons too I'm thinking an agressive mechanised list might be the way to go. I'll keep you updated !

**Suzuteo**

@Aaranis
Yeah, but just having 1-2 units of idle snipers is not actually enough to impact the game in an appreciable way. You need like 6-8 Arquebusiers at the very least.

I can totally see a list with Bombers, Raiders, and Boats with Plasma Vanguard and Electro-Priests. Alas, Stygies is still probably the way to go. You want to Scout move your entire army before turn one.

There's a quote from the US Civil War concerning the primary rule of maneuver warfare: "Get there first with the most men."

@Vineheart01
Well, tanks don't need 12" move, though our Duneriders do have that. That said, you are right that our vehicles do not ram nearly as well, but we also have way better guns, and this is 9E.

**U02dah4**

Aaranis wrote:
Do you guys reckon there's still a place for Rangers with Arquebuses ? I'm thinking the usual squad of 5 with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex. Haven't played a game yet so I'm wondering if they're easier to use or the opposite, and if the targeting rules against Characters make them redundant or not.

EDIT: Also just thought about that: Mars +1S Canticle makes them S8 AP-2 Dd3, wounding T4 on 2s looks appealing to me. The number of times I've rolled 2s to wound...

Not really mostly because vanguard are the same points now so vanguard with arquebuses are better.

The only role I can see for rangers is in an expansionist fw in which they get the 6" ore game move to guarantee getting to objectives but even then egged explorers and vanguard is probably better

**Madjob**

U02dah4 wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
Do you guys reckon there's still a place for Rangers with Arquebuses ? I'm thinking the usual squad of 5 with 2 Arquebuses and an Omnispex. Haven't played a game yet so I'm wondering if they're easier to use or the opposite, and if the targeting rules against Characters make them redundant or not.

EDIT: Also just thought about that: Mars +1S Canticle makes them S8 AP-2 Dd3, wounding T4 on 2s looks appealing to me. The number of times I've rolled 2s to wound...

Not really mostly because vanguard are the same points now so vanguard with arquebuses are better.

How do you figure that? The issue with Vanguard over Rangers has to do with Carbines just being an overall better gun to bring on troop fodder that needs to get out into the middle of the board compared to Galvanic Rifles, but the opposite is true on squads bringing Transarqs, because they don't want to move so at equal point cost between the two, having shots at 30" vs. not having shots at 30" I think is pretty clear cut.

On the subject of Vanguards, though, that D2 on 6s is making them look even better over Rangers for the aforementioned role now that the most common armies in the game are 2W minimum across the board. Makes me start thinking about Rad-Saturation worlds with Scarifying Weapons and Omnispexes.

**U02dah4**

Vanguard are better in CC

Vanguard are objectively better VS almost any target within 18"

Vanguard have assault weapons

Assuming you place your squad in terrain not against the back board your probably covering most or at least a good portion of the objectives. Which gives you targets

The extra range on the rangers giving you 3 Shots when your opponent is between 18-30 make very little difference. Because the guns are so ineffectual