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xerxeskingofking wrote:
not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.

Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.

 Aaranis wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?

Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.

Uuh the D2 Heavy Bolter ? The Multi-melta with two shots and d6+2 at half-range ? Cognis flamer at 12" ? I don't see any downsides so far. I really think they're something we can do with Servitors now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can tell they haven't actually faq'd those weapons for admech. (not seeing an updated faq for the admech codex, and the engine war one doesn't list the weapon changes)

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/z8EXwx1QvXo7CB9P.pdf

its literally at the bottom of the faq in a usual weapon-spreadsheet layout.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/z8EXwx1QvXo7CB9P.pdf

its literally at the bottom of the faq in a usual weapon-spreadsheet layout.

That's odd. when i download it myself, it's not there...

 Aaranis wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.

Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.

Going from S4 to 5 is an over-all 34% damage buff against T4 and a 50% buff against T5. That's roughly 0.75 wounds per Sword Infiltrator against T4 3+ (plus 0.33 from the carbine), and 0.55 against T5 3+ (+0.22 from carbine). Against the same targets, each taser gets 0.44 wounds and each blasters get 0.36. Even buffed, that's really nothing to write home about.

Worse than the middling damage, the problem is always going to be that deepstriking assault units are terrible without charge buffs. They've got a ~28% chance to make a 9" charge, a 48% chance to succeed with a Command Re-roll. The cost of failure is stranding a 200 point unit in the open.

That's always going to be the bottleneck for Infiltrators: they pay a lot of extra points for Deepstrike and melee weapons, but can't use them together to recoup that value. They're just unreliable. Sterylizers are a better Deepstriking unit because more of their power is in reliable shooting attacks, and they still have competent melee as a backup.

Waaaaghmaster wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/z8EXwx1QvXo7CB9P.pdf

its literally at the bottom of the faq in a usual weapon-spreadsheet layout.

That's odd. when i download it myself, it's not there...

the only admech faq i see when i go to the page is dated 13/07/2020

Looks like they havnt put it up on the FAQ page for some reason...
That link i got through the news article where they linked all the faqs. But yeah i dont see it on the FAQ page itself weirdly enough

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Looks like they havnt put it up on the FAQ page for some reason...
That link i got through the news article where they linked all the faqs. But yeah i dont see it on the FAQ page itself weirdly enough

most likely, the left hand isnt speaking to the right, or in this case whoever is publishing the FAQs isnt speaking to whoever maintains the FAQ page of the website....

Going from S4 to 5 is an over-all 34% damage buff against T4 and a 50% buff against T5. That's roughly 0.75 wounds per Sword Infiltrator against T4 3+ (plus 0.33 from the carbine), and 0.55 against T5 3+ (+0.22 from carbine). Against the same targets, each taser gets 0.44 wounds and each blasters get 0.36. Even buffed, that's really nothing to write home about.

Worse than the middling damage, the problem is always going to be that deepstriking assault units are terrible without charge buffs. They've got a ~28% chance to make a 9" charge, a 48% chance to succeed with a Command Re-roll. The cost of failure is stranding a 200 point unit in the open.

yhea, like i said, a buff, but not a major change. I cant see them introducing a "charge form deepstrike" buff/strat for us, if only to stop to the melee-focused armies moaning about us having it and them not (though i;m sure some of them can, i wont pretend to know every factions tricks).

Lots of factions have ways to make Deepstrike charges more reliable, typically by adding inches to their charge move or roll 3d6. Sometime it's specific to actually charging off a Deesptrike like Blood Angel's Descent of Angels (I believe that's the 3d6 one). Otherwise things like Ork Evil Sunz kultur add an inch and can re-roll either die, making their charge chance more like 75% at 9".

Infiltrators still don't have a unique stratagem, so maybe a 3d6 charge would be fine. It'd give them an actual identity since they got outclassed by the Pteraxii.

fair enough. it doesnt help that the ruststalkers got a "flanking deepstrike" strat either, which really does rob the infiltrators of pretty much Their One Trick, by the alternate build of the same boxset, no less!

they might get such a charge bonus strat, but i cant see that happening without a points increase, and i honestly think it'd be still be a hard sell to take them over electro priest for a melee attack unit ( Though i might get a box just because i like the minis)

 Aaranis wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?

Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.

Uuh the D2 Heavy Bolter ? The Multi-melta with two shots and d6+2 at half-range ? Cognis flamer at 12" ? I don't see any downsides so far. I really think they're something we can do with Servitors now.

Yes same as before take them with no guns and stick them on an objective. The gunned varients just underperform in comparison to equivalent units in other armies.

Sure its a boost on the flamer except unless your deep striking your still better with the ramgebof the alternative


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.

Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.

The main reason to take them is still the mars strat and that means you want the number of shots to be 5 not 3. Sure its a nice buff but it isnt enough to justify them

U02dah4 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:

Octovol wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
So, thoughts about the weapon changes ? Flank 3 Servitors units, 2 Multi-melta each, with Daedalosus, reroll 1s to Hit canticle, and enjoy 12 melta shots at d6+2 damage at 12" ?

Weapon changes? Sorry, you must be confusing us with Marines or Sisters :| Literally, every other army got all the downsides and none of the benefits.

Uuh the D2 Heavy Bolter ? The Multi-melta with two shots and d6+2 at half-range ? Cognis flamer at 12" ? I don't see any downsides so far. I really think they're something we can do with Servitors now.

Yes same as before take them with no guns and stick them on an objective. The gunned varients just underperform in comparison to equivalent units in other armies.

Sure its a boost on the flamer except unless your deep striking your still better with the ramgebof the alternative


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aaranis wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
not forgetting the +1 str on power swords. its not a massive buff, but its gives Infiltraitors 2 str 5, AP -3 attacks with power swords, which isnt to be sniffed at for no points increase. does it make them good? not really, but its still an improvement.

Yeah I'll get to the mathammer of this, it should give the edge compared to the Taser loadout. Although Ryza Infiltrators with AP-1 might be better with Tasers.

The main reason to take them is still the mars strat and that means you want the number of shots to be 5 not 3. Sure its a nice buff but it isnt enough to justify them

Someone gets it

They're basically incidental upgrades. Servitors will never be worth anything other than fodder and Infiltrators need to be the same price as ruststalkers to be worth taking over Sterylizors. The flamer increase is the only tangible increase and what SHOULD have happened is some actual updates to equivalent army weapons like they said they were going to do. Instead of what they've now said which is "Sorry you're SOL until your codex drops, just take it in the ass from marines until then"

What are Sulferhounds like? Worth using? I want to use some of these horse riding bros but I don’t really know what to use them for, same as the new winged bros. Flechette bros or flamers? I fight lots of power armour btw.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
What are Sulferhounds like? Worth using? I want to use some of these horse riding bros but I don’t really know what to use them for, same as the new winged bros. Flechette bros or flamers? I fight lots of power armour btw.

I love Sulphurhounds too model-wise, but sadly they underperform currently compared to their Serberys Raiders alternative. The Raiders have more utility overall, their strong point being able to have a pre-game move, giving them a great speed to go directly into enemy lines. Their weapons are not great, not bad, but can target characters. I'll give you a bit of maths to show their effectiveness, but they're certainly not beatsticks and against MEQ they're not great. Sulphurhounds are great against GEQ though.

5 Sulphurhounds shooting (all pistols, Alpha and flamers):
vs T3 5+: 8,05 wounds
vs T4 3+: 3,83 wounds

5 Sulphurhounds charging (Arc maul + claws):
vs T3 5+: 4,57 wounds
vs T4 3+: 1,88 wounds

5 Raiders shooting:
vs T3 5+: 4,26 wounds
vs T4 3+: 2,4 wounds

5 Raiders charging (6 Sabre attacks + claws):
vs T3 5+: 3,88 wounds
vs T4 3+: 1,63 wounds

You can see the Sulphurhounds are more effective, but due to being more expensive in points, they're less efficient and the Raiders have a slight advantage, combined with the perks I've said earlier.

However Sulphurhounds have their uses too, they ignore cover with all their ranged weapons, auto-hit with flamers (maybe they'll get boosted to 12" with our codex ?), and they give the Irradiation debuff which can be really useful to set up a charge by a more specialised assault unit. For example, combining a charge of Sulphurhounds with Hoplites on Marines will have the Hoplites wound them on 2+ (S6 vs T3).

For the Pteraxii I don't see any use for the Skystalkers save maybe replacing the Infiltrator + Wrath of Mars deep-strike combo due to their number of shots. Sterylizors on the other hand are a great unit offensively, and have surprisingly good stats on the charge. Given they also can lock a unit of Infantry in melee they can be really useful.

5 Sterylizors shooting:
vs T3 5+: 8,89 wounds
vs T4 3+: 3,87 wounds

5 Sterylizors charging (Taser + claws):
vs T3 5+: 6,66 wounds
vs T4 3+: 3,56 wounds

Their downside being they're quite flimsy and freaking huge at the same time, making it hard to place them and hide them.

yeah sulfurs suffer pretty badly due to not having the pregame move their raider brothers have.

They are technically not an optimal target for big guns, but due to how they work they are usually the first thing flat3 damage guns can hit and better to shoot them than not shoot at all.

I've gotten them to actually attack...once...in like 10 games lol. Every other game they die immediately to the first flat3 damage gun that has range on them.

I want them to work. The one time they got in range of infantry they just melted them, it was glorious...and immediately died afterwords lol. Due to how easily and efficiently they jsut get plastered they arent even worth their points in a distraction tactic.

Thanks guys, good to know. I’m trying to build a crusade roster, and the Sterylizors suit the roster fluff wise, so nice to know they’re also good at what they do.

Real shame about Sulpherhounds though, they look freaking awesome.

If you are going to spam Serberys, and I mean really spam, then 3x9 Raiders and 3x9 Hounds is actually quite scary mathwise.

I think all of the weapons are a wash for us.

Sword Infiltrators are better than Taser Infiltrators, but both are too expensive and lack the charge bonuses to make good bombs.

Servitors still suck. Data-Hoard Breachers are better in every way.

Plasma is safer against Dense terrain and anything with minus to hit. It is less safe to drop a bunch of them with a Daedalosus to melt things. (I actually think Plasma Culverins are going to see MORE use though. Because we did not get a buff to Heavy Grav, and we need a way to erase the torrent of Gravis spam that is incoming.)

Yeah I can’t say they really got me excited. But, after seeing the Necron and Marine books, I’m pretty keen for our 9th book.

I’m also tempted to use Hoplites in transports, they seem like a fun unit. Are they getting changed at all? I know there’s a forge world book coming at some stage (I assume we don’t really know when).

Nobody knows. Hoplites are pretty solid though if you want a defensive infantry pick. That said, we're at the point in the meta where you want mortal wounds, and Fulgurites fill this role well.

Played a test game against some Guard:

Raiders and Boats blitzed right out the gate and blocked out the midboard objectives before he could move (9" infiltration move, then 12+D6" advance). Autocannons with Wrath of Mars downed his Vulture. Grators did some damage to a Chimera. On his turn, the Chimeras were move-blocked by Raiders. All he could do was shoot them. They died well. Manticore blew up a Ballistarii. Next turn, the hammer came down really hard. Daeda+Destroyers outflanked and melted his Manticore and a second tank. Ballistarii and Grators popped two of his transports. I thinned the Guardsmen with Stubbers and gobbled them up in fighting for the save bonus. Pretty much nothing he could do after that; he was penned in his deployment by 19 Fulgurites. We basically traded firebase units; he killed my Destroyers and plinked uselessly at the Fulgurites; I killed his Chimeras one by one with the Ballistarii and Grators, then got my Fulgurites stuck in.

In retrospect, the game was really decided on turn one by the Raiders and Boats. The list is strong because Stygies stratagem and Mars Canticle are strong. Ryza Destroyers are really glassy. Not sure how to feel about them. They feel a bit win more. Any thoughts on what to do with 270 spare points?

 Suzuteo wrote:
Played a test game against some Guard:

Spoiler:

Mixed Battalion Detachment

HQ - 135
1x Mars Tech-priest Dominus - Warlord, Divinations of the Magos, Raiment of the Technomartyr
1x Daedalosus

Troop - 420
6x Ryza Kataphron Destroyer - Plasma Culverin, Cognis Flamer
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard
5x Graia Skitarii Vanguard

Transport - 200
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider
1x Stygies VIII Skorpius Dunerider

Elite - 340
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest
10x Stygies VIII Fulgurite Electro-Priest

Fast Attack - 453
5x Mars Ironstrider Ballistarii - Twin Cognis Autocannon
4x Mars Serberys Raiders
4x Mars Serberys Raiders

Heavy Support - 450
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon
1x Mars Skorpius Disintegrator - Belleros Energy Cannon

Total: 1998 points
12 CP

Raiders and Boats blitzed right out the gate and blocked out the midboard objectives before he could move (9" infiltration move, then 12+D6" advance). Autocannons with Wrath of Mars downed his Vulture. Grators did some damage to a Chimera. On his turn, the Chimeras were move-blocked by Raiders. All he could do was shoot them. They died well. Manticore blew up a Ballistarii. Next turn, the hammer came down really hard. Daeda+Destroyers outflanked and melted his Manticore and a second tank. Ballistarii and Grators popped two of his transports. I thinned the Guardsmen with Stubbers and gobbled them up in fighting for the save bonus. Pretty much nothing he could do after that; he was penned in his deployment by 19 Fulgurites. We basically traded firebase units; he killed my Destroyers and plinked uselessly at the Fulgurites; I killed his Chimeras one by one with the Ballistarii and Grators, then got my Fulgurites stuck in.

In retrospect, the game was really decided on turn one by the Raiders and Boats. The list is strong because Stygies stratagem and Mars Canticle are strong. Ryza Destroyers are really glassy. Not sure how to feel about them. They feel a bit win more. Any thoughts on what to do with 270 spare points?

That's so gamey and i hate it, but can't argue with the results lol.

maybe a couple of Fusilaves instead of the destroyers? need no support.

How do you think you would have fared with having second turn ?

 Aaranis wrote:
How do you think you would have fared with having second turn ?

Well, he would probably be ahead on primaries for the first few rounds because he would be able to get more of his Guardsmen into the midboard. He would probably do more damage to my firebase units too, since his artillery would be able to shoot more, but I think what happened on turn two would merely happen on turn three.

Also, in case you were wondering what he was running:

Custom Brigade
Gunnery Expert, Spotter Details

2x Company Commander
3x Tank Commander w/ Demolishers
3x5 Plasma Scions
4x10 Infantry Squad
4x Chimera
2x Commissar
1x Astropath
3x Scout Sentinels
2x Basilisks
1x Manticore - Full Payload
1x Vulture Gunship

Something like that. Basically, ridiculously souped up tanks (his Warlord was unkillable because of the Astropath LOL) with non-LOS artillery and mechanized troops to grab objectives.

He could outflank the Scions for 1 CP. Rest of the army was in Chimeras.

I think the one thing we need to watch for is that Tank Ace Manticore. 2xD6 (rerolling shots) S10 AP3 D3 shots is nuts. He actually said he was going to swap out for 3x Manticore, even if they can't do 3x Tank Ace, they have a great profile against Gravis. His Demo Cannons are great for Gravis too, but they turned out to be overpowered for most other applications, and their short 24"+6" range was unhelpful, as my Ballistarii were just pummeling him from out of range. Fact is, when the midboard is clogged with stuff, tanks do not get to move very much, so 48" range and 12" move with the option to advance helps.

Also, I misremembered; I killed Vulture with Pattern and Doctrina, not Wrath. I just spent 2 CP and forgot.

Now that is a genuinely different list. It looks extremely CP hungry, so the first thing I want to do is fit Monitor Malevolus in there somehow. Probably drop 2 Fulgerites for an Enginseer. What is the CP consumption per turn like in practice?

I think the Ryza Destroyers are going to pay much bigger dividends against Gravis and Custodes, so don't count them out yet.

 DarkHound wrote:
Now that is a genuinely different list. It looks extremely CP hungry, so the first thing I want to do is fit Monitor Malevolus in there somehow. Probably drop 2 Fulgerites for an Enginseer. What is the CP consumption per turn like in practice?

I think the Ryza Destroyers are going to pay much bigger dividends against Gravis and Custodes, so don't count them out yet.

Just wondering, but someone insisted that you can take Monitor on Daedalosus with the Locum strat because he lacks a specified WLT. Is this correct?

Another option is a Xenos Inquisitor.

You spend 2-4 CP right off the bat; if you can hide the Destroyers, you should. You will spend a furious amount each turn. Probably 3-4 per turn. Dry by turn three.

Pulled my notes out. Reverse-engineering the CP count:

Deployment - 12 CP
-2 Strategic Reserves
-2 Infiltrate

Round 1 - 9 CP
-1 Doctrina
-1 Pattern

Round 2 - 8 CP
-1 Pattern
-1 Plasma Specialists
-3 Zealous Congregation

Round 3 - 4 CP
-1 Pattern
-2 Acquisition

Round 4 - 2 CP
-1 Pattern

Game ended there.

Yes daedalosus can take monitor malevolous

Functionally, Daedalosus cannot take a Warlord trait.

Mechanicum Locus specifies a "<Forge World> Character" can gain a Warlord trait. Daedalosus doesn't have a Forge World, so he can't be chosen. You can choose him as your Warlord to gain any trait. However, only your Warlord can take Holy Order traits (as per arbitrary FAQ). Also, Daedalosus can have Holy Order traits, but they don't work. All their effects specify affecting <Forge World> units, and he doesn't have a corresponding <Forge World>.

So Daedalosus can have Monitor if he's your Warlord and you're not taking a Holy Order trait or a Forge World canticle. (Except in Crusade where he gets a Warlord trait for free.)

With that expenditure, Monitor should be a net +1 or 2 CP by turn 4 depending on the opponent. Most likely net +2CP by turn 5. So is 2 extra CP in the late game worth more than 2 Fulgerites?

Thanks for the clarification. And no, not worth it.

Anyhow, I think maybe this?


I trade in the Ryza Plasma Destroyers for Mars Grav Destroyers, which I can deploy or outflank as necessary. I gain a 5+ CP recycler and have one less thing to spend CP on.

That said... Plasma Culverins are way more versatile than Heavy Grav. If I had Grav in that Guard game, they would not be doing nearly as much.

And I could cut a Graia Vanguard unit and the Cognis Flamers and have 59 extra points to spend. 32 of which should probably go to 2x5 Raiders. That said, the Graia Vanguard are pretty handy for performing actions, baby sitting objectives, and screening out outflank and deep strike. This list also has more Psyker defense for sure; Steel Logic and two denies with Alpha Psyker.

I think the "Super Friends" style of play may have a lot of merit to it as all you give up is the dogma really, but you pick up a lot of options in terms of stratagems. The biggest issue is it becomes incredibly CP taxing, but you're by no means obligated to use all of the abilities.

Obviously the Graia ability is very strong on a couple Vanguard squads, and the Ryza ability is still completely fine. Lucius and Stygies both have different methods of deploying into battle, and even Agrippina can see some use.

I actually started a guide for new players getting Admech recently, and the newest video is about Forge Worlds, but it only covered the top 4. The rest will be covered in the next video including building mixed detachments. If you're interested it can be found here, criticism is always welcome: https://youtu.be/rAqT15ShC1U

Personally, I'm hoping 9th ed codexes do away with mixed detachments entirely, for all armies.

The only reason they exist is because the books have been written so badly or are so inflexible that people feel they need to game the system to fill the gaps. Plus a lot of those forgeworld specific strategms arent all that fluffy anyway and should just be under general availability, save the specific strategms for one off fantastical turning point abilities.

The abilities we get from forgeworld choice are so niche and so narrow minded that you end up needing to pick several to make them relevant to your army as a whole or they're just not worth it.

I'd love for example one of the forgeworlds to give every infantry the radiation debuff and make vanguard and sulphurhounds super irradiated. Every forgeworld bonus should benefit the majority of your army but add further specialisation to key aspects.

The problem I think is that they keep writing these codexes in the space marine mindset that the benefits given would affect such a large number of units when they absolutely dont.