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Razerous wrote:
What forge world / rules work best with Kataphron Servitors now?

Not a lot. you have the odd stratagem, some Holy Order buffs maybe one or two other abilities.

regarding which Forgeworld dogma works:
Mars might work well with Torsion breachers, low shots with high swing values vs rerolls.
Lucuis Breachers become really hard to kill with anti-infantry fire, and can deep strike
Agrippina relic - eye of xi-lexum for rerolling wounding against vehicles - haywire breachers will thank you here.
Stygies - the dense cover is a decent buff.
Ryza - boosted melee for hydraulic claw breachers (wounding knights on 2+ on the charge...), and plasma boost for destroyers
the other forgeworlds (including custom ones) do not really help much

So for skitarii troops, the comp is getting shifted a lot.

Vanguard: Plasma/Arc msu. Assuming alpha can still take base squad rifle, 4 radium + special. Otherwise I think go big. 60 radium shots for 160 points seems decent, though I think Rangers are just better at anti-infantry.

Rangers: MSU just seems better, either 5 galvantic or 4+ arquebus. Though having a pair of 10 galv squads for anti-infantry could be really good. For MegaOverkill5000 20 galvantic then use the rapid fire strat.

For my Ryza I'll probably do 2x5 vanguard with plasma, 2 5x rangers with an arquebus. Do my best to have the vanguard keep pace with ruststalkers and/or dragoons, or even punchbots. I sadly think relying on skitarii troops to do anything but touch objectives or finish off units here or there is all we're getting. I might finally have to get Kataphrons...

Is it me or has admech now suddenly become a very melee capable army? @@ Dragoons can fight really well, so can electropriests, just to name two units.

And its not like we lose our other shooting if we take these two types of units. We don't even have to swarm the whole board with these. I think some dragoons plus some of our troops for obsec is quite capable of playing Hammer and going up one flank and taking the objectives along one flank. The other flank just needs to play Anvil and hold the line, and that would be our primary objectives solved.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Is it me or has admech now suddenly become a very melee capable army? @@ Dragoons can fight really well, so can electropriests, just to name two units.

And its not like we lose our other shooting if we take these two types of units. We don't even have to swarm the whole board with these. I think some dragoons plus some of our troops for obsec is quite capable of playing Hammer and going up one flank and taking the objectives along one flank. The other flank just needs to play Anvil and hold the line, and that would be our primary objectives solved.

Yes. The big question in my mind is if we want to run Ryza for more wounding power or Mars/Lucius for more durability.

Mars battalion, Ryza patrol seems like a very obvious starting point for AdMech right now. I’m sure plenty of more nuanced builds will come out of the codex but really good shooting with a dash of super lethal melee makes pretty good sense

I REALLY like the look of Mars and getting to use Canticles. It seems really fun to me.

Even though they’re best in Ryza, I want to use Dragoons anyway. It’s kind of a shame that Rangers seem better than Vanguard with their strat to get Rapid Fire 2(!)

Basic Dragoons statline and strategems make them good anyway. Ryza makes them better, but I don't think they will be bad even in Mars.

astro_nomicon wrote:Mars battalion, Ryza patrol seems like a very obvious starting point for AdMech right now. I’m sure plenty of more nuanced builds will come out of the codex but really good shooting with a dash of super lethal melee makes pretty good sense

I am not so sure. This army is very CP hungry at muster. Every list I have burns 3-4 CP for the extra relics and WLTs.

Tiberius501 wrote:I REALLY like the look of Mars and getting to use Canticles. It seems really fun to me.

Even though they’re best in Ryza, I want to use Dragoons anyway. It’s kind of a shame that Rangers seem better than Vanguard with their strat to get Rapid Fire 2(!)

Vanguard aura got buffed to -1S and -1T to enemies in melee. They also have a stratagem to auto-wound on 4+ to hit. I think they are clearly the better option for Ryza because even a single MSU is crippling.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Basic Dragoons statline and strategems make them good anyway. Ryza makes them better, but I don't think they will be bad even in Mars.

Ryza gives them +1 on charges, +1 to wound, additional AP1. (This is pretty much all at once too.)

Mars gives them Canticles (cover in open, +1S in melee, or roll an extra D6 and discard the lowest result on charge) and a single reroll to hit.

Yeah, Dragoons seem great even in Mars too. I don't think Ryza are mandatory to make Dragoons work.

Ah that’s good to hear about Dragoons!

On that note, here's a weird list. I made it mostly as a way to experiment with Cawl. He's not bad. He's also VERY different than how he has always been used. He's not a Mars HQ anymore. He's the lynchpin of a multi-FW army, which has to have one Mars detachment with Robots or a big blob of Corpuscarii.


Dragoons in Mars. Marshal gives him fight first and rerolls. Canticles are used to buff the Dragoons; Cawl switches himself and the Robots to Shroudpsalm.

Ballistarii are in the Stygies unit to get Dense Cover, they are parked behind Cawl and the Warlord Marshal to get reroll 1s to hit and 1s to wound. Datasmith uses first turn Magi on the Dragoons, then switches immediately to Advanced to buff the Robots; he also grants Core to the Robots, which is how this is build is possible. Both Marshals stay close to their respective Ironstriders to turn off negatives as needed.

The two Stygies Vanguard blobs are forward deployed. The Warlord Marshal can make them shoot while putting banners and scramblers up from home, where he is buffing the Ballistarii.

What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.

EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.

Yeah, robots with fists are pretty good, especially with Ryza. I'm still going to stick with dakkabots in my Mars gunline.

 Aaranis wrote:
What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.

EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.

Not as good as Dragoons. Skitarii Core just makes them so punishingly strong. And there is a way for them to fight first with any Marshal. It's no contest really.

hearing dragoons are good makes my 4 that has been collecting dust since 9th hit happy again.

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.

EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.

Not as good as Dragoons. Skitarii Core just makes them so punishingly strong. And there is a way for them to fight first with any Marshal. It's no contest really.

Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.

And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?

The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!

 Aaranis wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
What do you think of Kastelans with a pair of Fists now ? In Conqueror protocol they're scary, and in Ryza even more so. They move 8", with +1" charge move, rerollable charges, 5 attacks each at WS 2+, S10, D3, +1 to Wound after charge. Now that they're 7W each it's a huge buff, as they won't get one shot by D6 weapons (I remember a tragic game against a Knight Gallant). I have to run the maths and see in detail what other buffs we can give them with Canticles and such, but it seems to me at first sight that a unit of 4 (400 pts) will destroy everything on the charge.

EDIT: Yeah a unit of 4 Ryza Fistelans in Conqueror protocol charging a Knight will make 34,72 W on average.

Not as good as Dragoons. Skitarii Core just makes them so punishingly strong. And there is a way for them to fight first with any Marshal. It's no contest really.

Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.

And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?

Raider Alpha with wlt and relic can keep up pretty easily. Plus as Dragoons havea broad spectrum data tether you can buff them with a Skitarii WLT from anywhere on the table.

Robots are pretty dead to me now unless you want to keep them in Aegis or only ever change protocol to Super-fists mode with the strat, because changing the protocol with the datasmith is even worse now that it was before!

 KillswitchUK wrote:
The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!

They are far more mobile than priests since they are movement 10. And they are Str 8 now (with lances), with an additional attack. Plus a strategem to give them exploding taser lances on 5s. It would take a lot to bog them down. As for not being able to hide them once they come out into the open. Their incense cloud gives them -1 to hit against both ranged as well as melee. And there are ways to improve their armour save from 3+ to 2+. They are Skitarii core as well. There are a ton of buffs and stuff you can throw on them. These Dragoons are hard to kill, hit super hard, and fast to boot. I honestly rate them higher than Electropriests now. They have everything a strong melee unit wants to have, resilience, lethality and mobility.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 KillswitchUK wrote:
The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!

They are far more mobile than priests since they are movement 10. And they are Str 8 now (with lances), with an additional attack. Plus a strategem to give them exploding taser lances on 5s. It would take a lot to bog them down. As for not being able to hide them once they come out into the open. Their incense cloud gives them -1 to hit against both ranged as well as melee. And there are ways to improve their armour save from 3+ to 2+. They are Skitarii core as well. There are a ton of buffs and stuff you can throw on them. These Dragoons are hard to kill, hit super hard, and fast to boot. I honestly rate them higher than Electropriests now. They have everything a strong melee unit wants to have, resilience, lethality and mobility.

Sorry I didn't mention priests, I meant Ruststalkers. For 170pts, Stygies for a garenteed turn 1 charge, they are pretty rutal being str 6 -3ap 1D with 41 attacks for 2CP?

I guess each has its advantages. I would say Dragoons are more versatile because str 8 can handle just about anything, including all manner of vehicles and dreadnaughts. They are also a lot tougher than Rust Stalkers. They are of course more expensive in points too.

Rust Stalkers seem to me like a one shot missile. They hit and hopefully kill what they come into contact with. A counter charge or shooting will probably clear them.

Dragoons are what you can use to literally move onto a midboard objective and bully whatever is on it and stay on it after that daring anyone to try and take that objective away from you.

I can see a squadron of Dragoons storming down a flank, taking objectives and even ending up in opponent's deployment zone by turn 4 or 5 and killing their heavy support or tanks. I just don't see Rust Stalkers being able to do that.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I guess each has its advantages. I would say Dragoons are more versatile because str 8 can handle just about anything, including all manner of vehicles and dreadnaughts. They are also a lot tougher than Rust Stalkers. They are of course more expensive in points too.

Rust Stalkers seem to me like a one shot missile. They hit and hopefully kill what they come into contact with. A counter charge or shooting will probably clear them.

Dragoons are what you can use to literally move onto a midboard objective and bully whatever is on it and stay on it after that daring anyone to try and take that objective away from you.

I can see a squadron of Dragoons storming down a flank, taking objectives and even ending up in opponent's deployment zone by turn 4 or 5 and killing their heavy support or tanks. I just don't see Rust Stalkers being able to do that.

The str is the only real factor here imo, but there're definitely tradeoffs, you can't ignore either.

170pts of Rusties is 20 2+/5++ t3 wounds you can zip from one side of the board to the next for 1cp and 41 str 5 ap -3 attacks.
210pts of Dragoons is 18 2+/6++ t6 wounds that only moves 2" faster and cant teleport around the place, and puts out a lot less attacks (even with improved explode) at less ap but higher str and more dmg per hit.

Really depends on your targets, personally i'd take both and priests and still find different targets for them. the sneak attack potential of Ruststalkers is pretty undervalued imo if your opponent is trying to keep something back for actions.

.

Dragoons have the problem most stuff like them have in 9th - an expensive premium melee unit without ridiculous survivability and no way to bypass screens is of limited worth in what is fundamentally a trading game. They also suffer from another 9th edition problem, which is that they pay points for survivability but don't pay enough to be actually resilient, just like they pay points to be killy but not quite enough to actually be super killy.

All-rounders generally struggle when lethality is high and the game becomes about trading, because the way to trade efficiently is generally not to be paying points for something you're not getting value from.

Finally, there's a surprising amount of stuff they bounce off against for a premium melee unit: anything that can ignore AP -1 and -2, anything with a 1+ base save, anything with -1 damage. It's actually a pretty small slice of the game that they are really effective at killing, but that they don't overkill and therefore trade down into.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Dragoons have the problem most stuff like them have in 9th - an expensive premium melee unit without ridiculous survivability and no way to bypass screens is of limited worth in what is fundamentally a trading game. They also suffer from another 9th edition problem, which is that they pay points for survivability but don't pay enough to be actually resilient, just like they pay points to be killy but not quite enough to actually be super killy.

All-rounders generally struggle when lethality is high and the game becomes about trading, because the way to trade efficiently is generally not to be paying points for something you're not getting value from.

Finally, there's a surprising amount of stuff they bounce off against for a premium melee unit: anything that can ignore AP -1 and -2, anything with a 1+ base save, anything with -1 damage. It's actually a pretty small slice of the game that they are really effective at killing, but that they don't overkill and therefore trade down into.

I kinda agree which is why mine are mostly small units of 2-3. They hit hard enough against smaller stuff and are resilient enough that you should get value and be able to maneuver but not so big that it feels like trash when a super succubuss picks them up.

They made them better for sure but when I look at Mortifiers I still cry for what could have been.

 Aaranis wrote:
Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.

And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?

My calculator tells me there is no situation where Dragoons don't absolutely clobber Robots in a head to head.

I mean, setting aside all Forgeworld bonuses and Holy Orders, but counting the unique Skitarii and Cult WLTs and relics, this is what we have:

Durability: 3x T7 W7 3+/5++ (vs ranged only)
Mobility: M8" (has to stay within 3" of Datasmith)
Output: 15x S10 AP3 D3, BS2+, reroll 1s to hit

Durability: 4x T6 W6 2+ (1+ with Doctrina)/5++, -1 to hit
Mobility: M10" (+3" with Doctrina), can advance up to 19" reliably
Output: 20x S9 AP2 D2, BS2+, +2 hits on 5s (Chain-Taser Protocol) to hit and +3 hits on 6s (Omniscient Mask), reroll 1s to hit and to wound, fight first

Dragoons trade 1T for -1 to hit and 5++ in both ranged and melee as well as Light Cover on demand, on top of 24 gross wounds to the Robots' 21. Dragoons win handily here.

Dragoons are clearly faster than Robots, and they don't even need to be near their Marshal to get the WLT buffs.

Dragoons massively outdamage Robots. It's not even a contest. They trade 1S, AP1, and 1D to gain +103% effective hits. Note that Robots output 14.5833 effective hits after accounting for BS and the reroll 1 to hit. Dragoons output 29.63 effective hits. (Which is actually less than what they used to do, but still close to the glory days.)

Here's the math there, in case my calculations are mistaken:
Robots: (15*1/6*5/6+15*5/6) = 14.5833
Dragoons: ((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+20*1/6*2)*5/6) = 29.63

EDIT: Realized I was using 5x Dragoons in my calculator.

 KillswitchUK wrote:
The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!

This is a good point to consider. It might be safer to run them in 4s so they can move in a 2x2 block. You can also reserve then for 2 CP.

If you take Ryza, then your dragoons can get +1 to wound, -1 AP and +1 charge. That solves most AP problems because then their lances become -2AP, which is probably enough to bring most armour saves to their invulnerable saves anyway.

I totally support that Dragoons and rust stalkers are very different roles in our army. Rust stalkers are used to trade. Dragoons are not used to trade, cos we want them to stay on the table and dominate that flank we throw them down.

In a way, they are kind of like Electropriests once they have killed something and gotten their high invul (except that got slightly nerfed now).

Admech is still super good at shooting. So, the question is, if a typical opponent is facing an admech army, would they devote their shooting to reduce some of the more shooty elements, or would they actually try and kill T6W6 vehicles with a -1 to hit and possibly 2+ armor save.

I think any melee unit without fly can potentially be temporarily blocked by throwing cheap sacrificial units in their way. But look at how much better rangers now. We should now totally have the mass number of small shots to clear away chaff.

So, I am not saying rely only on Dragoons. But they are a really interesting hammer style unit that can really force their way down a flank and create huge problems now. You can go in single file through narrower gaps that might even give tanks problems and you can run them down the flanks which usually gives you more space anyway. There is zero reason not to advance, so you are moving 10+d6 inches every turn (and don't forget the +3 potential move you can give them). If they don't put a unit in your way to fight you, you could very well be at their deployment zone at the end of your second move even if they are at the extreme edge of one side of the board.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If you take Ryza, then your dragoons can get +1 to wound, -1 AP and +1 charge. That solves most AP problems because then their lances become -2AP, which is probably enough to bring most armour saves to their invulnerable saves anyway.

Dragoons have native AP2 now. So Citation gets them to AP3.

Ironstriders are honestly so strong that I am afraid that the next Muni is going to revise them up 10 points. That or they revise Robots down 10 points.

I really hope FAQ gives Kataphrons Core. They need it so badly.

Wow, I forgot they now AP2 in the new book now! Ok, then seriously? AP is hardly an issue for them in that case isn't it? lol

Dragoons won't "stay on the table and dominate that flank," though; you'll usually just end up trading them unfavorably. Melee units can't do their thing without exposing themselves to a counterstrike (except for the handful of stuff that can move after fighting or something like that), and they aren't near tanky enough to survive the counter-punch. -1 to hit T6 3+/6++ 6W is not a particularly resilient profile for a 70 point model. Any decent hammer unit will happily pick them straight up unless you take a big unit, and if you do take a big unit, that just makes it more unwieldy and even juicier to take off the board.

They're in that classic tight spot in 9th in that they pay points for everything, but don't specialize in anything - they pay points for a 10" move, but don't have fly or infantry so terrain does them dirty and they can't jump over screens; they pay points for a decent defensive profile, but not a great one, and they pay points for strongish offense, but not overwhelming offense.

They're not terrible or anything, but I can tell you they aren't the part of the book that scares me as an opponent, and I'd be be happy to see them as an opponent because it means I'm seeing less of the really effective stuff.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, I forgot they now AP2 in the new book now! Ok, then seriously? AP is hardly an issue for them in that case isn't it? lol

It's an issue in that they'll bounce against stuff that can ignore AP2, and against SS termies as well to some extent. Having the ability to make them 3AP with the Ryza trait makes them much better, though it could be kinda awkward to put on them since it's w/in 6" at the start of the fight phase, not the command or movement phase, so you basically have to expose your warlord to use it. Still makes them much more viable, though, IMO.