Adeptus Mechanicus Tactica 3.0: Riding the Dunes

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**Eldenfirefly**

Considering its 65 to 70 points for 6W, that works out to 11 to 12 points per wound. That's cheap to me, on something that is -1 to hit and can go to potentially 2+ armor save. Plus its on separate models, so if you end up with 1 model that is on 1 wound, you still need to fire an anti tank weapon at it to take off that last wound because small arms fire isn't going to do much to them.

They are great for the new admech secondary "eradication of the flesh" too. Because your opponent will need to kill the entire squadron to count as killing a unit of these vehicles. Same for the Ironstriders. It is far easier to kill an admech tank than it is to kill an entire squadron of these.

**yukishiro1**

The tanks are pretty terrible in the new book, you definitely don't want to be taking those.

Ironstriders are one of the S-tier units for sure. Which is sorta the issue with dragoons. Hard to see why you'd want them when you can just take ironstriders instead and do more or less the same thing, but from somewhere you can protect them.

**Eldenfirefly**

yukishiro1 wrote:
The tanks are pretty terrible in the new book, you definitely don't want to be taking those.

Ironstriders are one of the S-tier units for sure. Which is sorta the issue with dragoons. Hard to see why you'd want them when you can just take ironstriders instead and do more or less the same thing, but from somewhere you can protect them.

I would take both! lol No reason why you can't take both! lol The way I envision them, you just need a squad of 4 or 5 of them in your whole army and thats enough. You just need to Hammer one flank, you don't need to melee pressure the entire board. And for one flank, just one squadron of these will do fine. This allows you to take ironstriders for the other two slots. Seriously, how many ironstrider Squadron do you want to spam anyway? In a bigger unit, they are more efficient when you put strategems and stuff on them.

In any case, a proper Hammer flank won't be just the squadron by itself. It will be supported by other stuff too. Be it shooting or obsec or other units. If you think 200 over points of a unit by itself is enough to power through one flank, that's wishful thinking. But a decent sized squadron of these, supported by shooting and other units ... I can definitely see it.

Again, I would challenge the premise that a squadron of Dragoons will not survive on the battlefield. They can fight anything and have a good chance of coming out ahead. Yes, anything can be killed if you direct enough anti tank shots at it. But in the context of an admech army, will they really be the priority target number one that you direct all of your anti tank at? You got admech flier/s in the air, you got shooty ironstriders which are lethal at range, and everything else in a traditionally shooty faction. Will you actually instead direct all of your shooting at a Dragoon unit that cannot shoot? Press X to doubt.

**Suzuteo**

yukishiro1 wrote:
The tanks are pretty terrible in the new book, you definitely don't want to be taking those.

Ironstriders are one of the S-tier units for sure. Which is sorta the issue with dragoons. Hard to see why you'd want them when you can just take ironstriders instead and do more or less the same thing, but from somewhere you can protect them.

Taking two tanks is not bad... if they are in Mars for Benediction Canticle and backed by an Enginseer spamming Tech-Adepts every turn to give them both +1 to hit.

But yeah, Ironstriders are amazingly strong.

**DarkHound**

Yeah, I think the principle benefit to the tanks is that they're durable for their points. The Disintegrator can hide, and the Dunecrawler has a 5++. Good for plinking at 48" and scoring objectives. You only need one or two for that though.

Hey, here's a selfish question: what loadout are you taking for the Infiltrators? I'm kind of leaning Power Sword and Carbine, but I haven't done much math on it. The shooting damage seems roughly equivalent so an extra 6" range is a tiebreaker.

I'm also considering throwing the Skull of Nikola on them. If they can hit even two tanks, that's an average of 3 mortals and that's roughly worth a CP. I'm leery of matchups where it won't do literally anything, but woe betide any parking lot that gets charged by them...

**Suzuteo**

DarkHound wrote:
Yeah, I think the principle benefit to the tanks is that they're durable for their points. The Disintegrator can hide, and the Dunecrawler has a 5++. Good for plinking at 48" and scoring objectives. You only need one or two for that though.

Hey, here's a selfish question: what loadout are you taking for the Infiltrators? I'm kind of leaning Power Sword and Carbine, but I haven't done much math on it. The shooting damage seems roughly equivalent so an extra 6" range is a tiebreaker.

I'm also considering throwing the Skull of Nikola on them. If they can hit even two tanks, that's an average of 3 mortals and that's roughly worth a CP. I'm leery of matchups where it won't do literally anything, but woe betide any parking lot that gets charged by them...

I prefer to take them with Flechette Blaster and Taser Goad. For Mars, you want the Flechette for Wrath. For Ryza, the Power Swords might be better, since you can give them +1S with that stratagem (S6 AP3), but if you aren't investing in them as a fighting unit, then Tasers are better (S6 AP1).

Nikola seems like a really circumstantial pick. But sure, it can work.

**astro_nomicon**

The skull seems like a pretty good pick given the meta. Drukhari are all rocking at least 4, usually more, hulls, a lot of Death Guard are rocking more Daemon Engines as counter drukhari builds, same with some space marine builds and various flavors of dreadnoughts, Dark Angels love their talon masters, and if you face the mirror match then there’s quite the possibility for good use as well

**The Forgemaster**

Elder Nikola's relic on a unit of pteraxii with booster thrust stratagem: drop in shoot/relic or do an action (if needed) then fly away to reserves again, without the enemny being able to hurt them, and it can get the skull to where you want it to be...

**Aaranis**

Suzuteo wrote:
Aaranis wrote:
Different units for different purposes no ? Dragoons want to be killing MEQ and light vehicles/monsters, while Kastelan will be punching Gravis dudes, heavy vehicles/monsters and such. Both can be used as a midfield distraction that can't be ignored too.

And Datasmiths can give Core to Kastelan too, however they'll have a harder time following the Robots. However how are you going to make you Techpriests follow your 19" move Dragoons ?

My calculator tells me there is no situation where Dragoons don't absolutely clobber Robots in a head to head.

I mean, setting aside all Forgeworld bonuses and Holy Orders, but counting the unique Skitarii and Cult WLTs and relics, this is what we have:

Durability: 3x T7 W7 3+/5++ (vs ranged only)
Mobility: M8" (has to stay within 3" of Datasmith)
Output: 15x S10 AP3 D3, BS2+, reroll 1s to hit

Durability: 4x T6 W6 2+ (1+ with Doctrina)/5++, -1 to hit
Mobility: M10" (+3" with Doctrina), can advance up to 19" reliably
Output: 20x S9 AP2 D2, BS2+, +2 hits on 5s (Chain-Taser Protocol) to hit and +3 hits on 6s (Omniscient Mask), reroll 1s to hit and to wound, fight first

Dragoons trade 1T for -1 to hit and 5++ in both ranged and melee as well as Light Cover on demand, on top of 24 gross wounds to the Robots' 21. Dragoons win handily here.

Dragoons are clearly faster than Robots, and they don't even need to be near their Marshal to get the WLT buffs.

Dragoons massively outdamage Robots. It's not even a contest. They trade 1S, AP1, and 1D to gain +103% effective hits. Note that Robots output 14.5833 effective hits after accounting for BS and the reroll 1 to hit. Dragoons output 29.63 effective hits. (Which is actually less than what they used to do, but still close to the glory days.)

Here's the math there, in case my calculations are mistaken:
Robots: (15*1/6*5/6+15*5/6) = 14.5833
Dragoons: ((16+16*1/6*3+16*1/6*2)*1/6*5/6+(16+16*1/6*3+20*1/6*2)*5/6) = 29.63

EDIT: Realized I was using 5x Dragoons in my calculator.

KillswitchUK wrote:
The biggest issue with dragoons is not only getting there, but little things like deployment and getting around terrain. I agree they can hit like a truck with some support and CP's, however you don't want to get bogged down and you can;t really hide them going 2nd. I would consider Autocannon chickens instead as that gives you ranged shotsand leave the combat for things like rustalkers which, although may not hit as hard, still have a shed load of combat attacks, can hide, are still fairly fast and very durable in cover. For 2CP they can be Str 6 -3AP and 4 attacks each, thats pretty damn strong!

This is a good point to consider. It might be safer to run them in 4s so they can move in a 2x2 block. You can also reserve then for 2 CP.

I have no idea how you made your calculations, what are they fighting ? Do they have rerolls of some kind ? I don't understand your formula. Here's my maths (with my wife's help to be honest, she's into maths for work):

With no WL trait, relic, stratagem or anything:

3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T5-7 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(4/6) = 8,33 wounds *(5/6) = 6,94 unsaved wounds *3D = 20,83 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis)
4 Dragoons vs T5-7 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(4/6) = 10,66 wounds *(4/6) = 7,11 unsaved wounds *2D = 14,22 total damage (and each Gravis needs two unsaved Wounds to die)

Also where do you get your 5++ for Dragoons ? They're 6++ base. Each 3D weapons that wounds them means two of these kill a Dragoon, a Robot would need three (I think most anti-tank weapons do between 3 and 6 damage but I'm a bit out of touch with the game).

If you make them move 13" you have a 4+/6++ unless you commit the Marshal but he's not free of charge. Though of course I agree Dragoons have the mobility against Robots no contest. I'd argue that they only need to be near the Datasmith on the turn prior to the charge for the protocol change. Afterwards they only need him if they want to have <Core> or to be repaired.

So tell me where I'm wrong but I don't see the Dragoons "clobber Robots", all I see are different tools for different purposes. Dragoons to massacre elite infantry (or whatever dares having 2W), be a roadblock anywhere on the board and be a pain in the backside to remove. Robots for heavy-demolition duty, anything with 3 wounds or more, more of a middle of the board distraction due to less movement.

Please keep in mind I'm not looking to be confrontationnal or anything, I'm genuinely curious as to your view on the subject (it's hard to convey tone on the internet).

**JNAProductions**

Minor math nitpick, Aaranis-Robots do better against T5, since they're wounding on 2s. They're S10, right?

**Aaranis**

JNAProductions wrote:
Minor math nitpick, Aaranis-Robots do better against T5, since they're wounding on 2s. They're S10, right?

Oh yeah you're right, at first I was just doing the maths for T7 and then figured Gravis entered the same category of targets they'd hunt, you're right they'll wound on 2s

**DarkHound**

I played a match this morning before work on TTS against my buddy's Death Guard to try out the new codex. It was an insane blood bath. Here's how it went down.

Death Guard:

Spoiler:

Knights and AdMech:

Spoiler:

We played a simple Battle Lines game. His secondaries were Bring It Down, Spread the Sickness, and Vital Ground. I went with Engage on All Fronts, Grind Them Down, and Vital Ground.

He deployed quite conservatively and hid all but the Poxwalkers behind obscuring terrain. His shooting threats were LoS ignoring, so I deployed quite aggressively. We used the Invictor Warsuit's rules for the Infiltrator's new deployment.

I won first turn and activated +3" movement and shooting re-rolls for the Knights. The Raiders and Infiltrators were point blank with his army, while everything else advanced. I used March to War to get the Vanguard 15" movement. The Crusader advanced 17" and the 3 Warglaives advanced ~18" into view (and half range) of the Crawlers. His deployment ended up counting for nothing because every unit got to move to their perfect target.

Then the shooting phase started. He used Cloud of Flies on the Blightlords. I used Enriched Ammunition on the Vanguard, split my fire between the two Deathshroud squads and killed 4. The Warglaives and Crusader each barely killed their target Crawler, but the extra damage re-rolls came in clutch both times (I also CP re-rolled the Crusader to 5 shots). After shooting everything else into the Poxwalkers, then charging them with the Infiltrators (who had Order in Anarchy) and Raiders, only a few remained.

On the start of his turn 1, he was down to 10 Terminators, 2 characters, the Daemon Prince, and a handful of zombies. The Terminators shot and killed a quarter of my Vanguard, and the Daemon Prince leapt in to finish them off. It lost 2 wounds to overwatch, but killed the squad to half strength. Fortunately I had daisy chained on to the objective and used the new Acquisition At Any Cost to auto-pass morale. The Terminators assaulted into the zombie brawl and killed everything, though amusingly the Infiltrator aura turned off their plague weapons and the 5++ gave him a rough time.

My turn 2 was basically clean up. The Crusader incinerated the Daemon Prince and killed the rest of the zombies. The Warglaive lances popped the straggling Deathshroud, then they piled into the BlightLords with Pack Tactics and killed 5. With only 5 models on the board, my opponent conceded.

I should stress that my rolls were average to mediocre. We used a significant amount of LoS blocking terrain, and I think he wanted to go second so I'd have to come forward and expose myself. But my entire army moved a third of the board length. I think this was a fairly poor match-up for him anyway. I think if he gets the first turn and gets his buffs rolling, it'll take twice as long to do the damage, but the result is the same on turn 4.

I was entirely surprised by how lethal the Vanguard are; they can easily kill their points back against tough armies. My principle take-away is that I miss having spare infantry to complete actions. I felt really constrained picking secondaries. I could always rely on my 3x5 Vanguard and Ruststalkers to secure 10+ points. I may have to cut back on the Raiders and Infiltrators for two squads of Rangers.

**Thairne**

Was there no way for him to prevent those T1 charges or did he not expect you to move that quick?

**DarkHound**

There was 0 chance. The Raiders moved 30" and the Infiltrators deployed <18" away and moved 11". He was trying to bubble wrap the Crawlers anyway, so he couldn't completely hide them or push them to the back of his deployment. The fact that I charged the Poxwalkers was him denying the first turn charge.

**Tiberius501**

If I were to do a core of a Tech-priest Dominus, a Marshal, a block of 20 vanguard with 2 arc and 2 plasma, 2 units of 10 Rangers with an Arquebus each, and a unit of 3-5 Dragoons, does that look good?
I think I’ll be an idiot and use Onagers as my anti-tank, because I don’t own other things, and I’m thinking of using a chunk of 10 Sterylizors too since they still seem pretty killy, remaining the same.

**Thairne**

If you go with blocks, go with a manipulus instead. That extra AP comes in more handy. The Marshal has all the RR you need already.
Arc rifles also feel bad RN, they're neither assault nor the range to be useful at anything more than 12" for that extra shot.
Arquebi seem to be dead dead, 2 arquebi dont have the power to snipe anything.
The problem with a large stack of Sterylizors, I think, is that you'll have a tough time actually fitting them somewhere with their ridiculous wingspan...

**Aaranis**

DarkHound wrote:
I used March to War to get the Vanguard 15" movement.

What's March to War ?

**DarkHound**

I don't think the special weapons are particularly good because you lose synergy with the buffs and stratagems. Vanguard with Enriched Rounds are truly insane. While taking special weapons preserves disproportionate firepower as the unit is killed, I don't know if they're literally worth the points. You can spend those extra points on another Ironstrider or something. I could see the argument for Arc Rifles on some minimum sized Rangers specifically to trigger the stratagem, but even that's a stretch.

As far as HQs, I don't think the Marshall is worthwhile to buff Vanguard since their power is in ignoring the wound step. The Manipulus is stronger than the Dominus, but taking both makes sense.

If you're going with huge blocks, just use the default weapons and plan to buff them. Preferably bring a couple blocks so you can buff the largest one after casualties. If you're not, then spam minimum sized squads to capture objectives and complete actions.

Aaranis wrote:
DarkHound wrote:
I used March to War to get the Vanguard 15" movement.
What's March to War ?

From the Metalica supplement: 1 CP for a Metalica unit to advance 6". I had +3" movement Doctrina, so 15" total.

**Aaranis**

DarkHound wrote:
I don't think the special weapons are particularly good because you lose synergy with the buffs and stratagems. Vanguard with Enriched Rounds are truly insane. While taking special weapons preserves disproportionate firepower as the unit is killed, I don't know if they're literally worth the points. You can spend those extra points on another Ironstrider or something. I could see the argument for Arc Rifles on some minimum sized Rangers specifically to trigger the stratagem, but even that's a stretch.

As far as HQs, I don't think the Marshall is worthwhile to buff Vanguard since their power is in ignoring the wound step. The Manipulus is stronger than the Dominus, but taking both makes sense.

If you're going with huge blocks, just use the default weapons and plan to buff them. Preferably bring a couple blocks so you can buff the largest one after casualties. If you're not, then spam minimum sized squads to capture objectives and complete actions.
Aaranis wrote:
DarkHound wrote:
I used March to War to get the Vanguard 15" movement.
What's March to War ?
From the Metalica supplement: 1 CP for a Metalica unit to advance 6". I had +3" movement Doctrina, so 15" total.

Ah thanks ! Don't have that supplement.

Always loved Vanguards, I'm glad they're back on the menu. Vanguards with Enriched Wounds against Death Guard was a tough matchup for him.

**The Forgemaster**

A 1000points list:
I know it is not overly popular in comparison to 2k, but I enjoy playing smaller games occasionally and figured maybe starting smaller with the new codex to see what works? your thoughts?

Spoiler:

**DarkHound**

I think that list doesn't look bad. I'll reiterate I'm of the opinion you want to either go 20 Skitarii for buffs or 5 for objectives and actions.

I also feel like the Infiltrators, Raiders, and Pteraxii are competing for the same job. Plus you already have access to Deepstriking stuff that normally can't Deepstrike. It feels like you're missing an opportunity to dump Fulgerites into the enemy line or something.

**Tiberius501**

Thairne wrote:
If you go with blocks, go with a manipulus instead. That extra AP comes in more handy. The Marshal has all the RR you need already.
Arc rifles also feel bad RN, they're neither assault nor the range to be useful at anything more than 12" for that extra shot.
Arquebi seem to be dead dead, 2 arquebi dont have the power to snipe anything.
The problem with a large stack of Sterylizors, I think, is that you'll have a tough time actually fitting them somewhere with their ridiculous wingspan...

Thanks this makes a lot of sense. I’ll probably still take the arc rifles, cos they’re cool and it’s just 2. But changing to the manipulus is a good idea (I assume hanging with the 20 man vanguard?) and taking out the arquebuses.

Would you say 2 units of 5 Sterylizors, or just 1 lot of 5 is still a good option? Or are Sterylizors in general too unwieldy?

**DarkHound**

Sterylizors are great. Richard Siegler dunked all over Nick Nanavati's Death Guard with them today. They bounced around nuking the chaff Poxwalkers and such. I'd go 10 to maximize the effect of the CP spent redeploying them. A link to the match for your viewing pleasure.

**yukishiro1**

They certainly are right now, but that's the sort of interaction I wouldn't bank on surviving an FAQ. I am really not sure they intended to give out a 1CP strat that lets you drop a unit and pick it up on the same turn, thereby nearly completely avoiding any ability for your opponent to interact with it.

**Eldenfirefly**

yukishiro1 wrote:
They certainly are right now, but that's the sort of interaction I wouldn't bank on surviving an FAQ. I am really not sure they intended to give out a 1CP strat that lets you drop a unit and pick it up on the same turn, thereby nearly completely avoiding any ability for your opponent to interact with it.

Nick's Death Guard list literally had almost no answers to RIchard's Admech. It was a total pummeling! @_@

It was like, hey, who needs melee units! I will just shoot everything to death!

**Tiberius501**

Yeah I’m not sure I want to rely on bouncing around with a disgusting strat that’s likely going to be FaQed for Sterylizors to be good. Are they good without the strat?

Also, when arming Skitarii, would you give squads of 10 (I know it’s not the optimal) Rangers a plasma? Or just stick them with their basic rifles?

**Aaranis**

I think we can give a special weapon to min squads, and starting from units of 10 using the strats to either make them RF2 or wound on 4+ might be better and cheaper.

**deffrekka**

yukishiro1 wrote:
They certainly are right now, but that's the sort of interaction I wouldn't bank on surviving an FAQ. I am really not sure they intended to give out a 1CP strat that lets you drop a unit and pick it up on the same turn, thereby nearly completely avoiding any ability for your opponent to interact with it.

Armies can interact with it, they will just have to change to do so. Unless they are Lucius, you can still Auspex/EoW/Infoslave skull them. Forewarned can do it aswell with no 12" limit. Dark Eldar can vect that strat so suddenly it's 2CP each time which really starts to eat away at the admech players CP pool. We have a lot of good strats and we use 3-4 CP before the game, when it starts costing 2CP a turn you really have to think about whether or not you can afford it. Any Imperial army can take a Callidus Assassin to again really mess with our CP.

The strat is good but I wouldn't jump to calling it broken. Some interactions like doing actions will most likely get FAQd away but atleast it's only Pteraxii. Imagine if this was Plasma Inceptors. And anyway Sieglar was cheating a lil bit, probably by mistake, the Princeps doesn't get a Phosphor Torch, so he had 3-4 extra D6 over the course of the game.

And really this problem was accentuated by Nick. No screening at all. He didn't even read the Admech Codex. So it was a perfect storm for the Pteraxii. If your not prepared for it, it'll feel broken. Screen them out, bring tools to manipulate CP usage, have intercept ready.

All id like to see is the strat cost 2CP and remove the action interaction. Everything about it is fine, its only 1 unit of Pteraxii.

**Suzuteo**

Aaranis wrote:
I have no idea how you made your calculations, what are they fighting?

Do they have rerolls of some kind ? I don't understand your formula. Here's my maths (with my wife's help to be honest, she's into maths for work):

With no WL trait, relic, stratagem or anything:

3 Kastelan Robots with 6 Fists in Conqueror vs T5-7 3+ : 15*(5/6) = 12,5 hits *(4/6) = 8,33 wounds *(5/6) = 6,94 unsaved wounds *3D = 20,83 total damage (and each unsaved Wound is a dead Gravis)
4 Dragoons vs T5-7 3+ : 16*(6/6) = 16 hits *(4/6) = 10,66 wounds *(4/6) = 7,11 unsaved wounds *2D = 14,22 total damage (and each Gravis needs two unsaved Wounds to die)

These are just effective hits. As in, how many successful hits you land against a target without any minus to hit modifiers. In just this step, you end up with twice as many Dragoon hits as you would Robot hits.

Dragoons have exploding hits. On a natural 5, it's +2 attacks. On a natural 6, it's +3 attacks. These are due to the Dragoon and Skitarii-specific buffs that the Robot does not have access to.

Aaranis wrote:
Also where do you get your 5++ for Dragoons ? They're 6++ base.

The Bionics were upgraded for the Sicarians, Pteraxii, Serberys, and Ironstriders. It's 5++ now.

Aaranis wrote:
Each 3D weapons that wounds them means two of these kill a Dragoon, a Robot would need three (I think most anti-tank weapons do between 3 and 6 damage but I'm a bit out of touch with the game).

These days, everyone loves melta-type weapons.

Aaranis wrote:
If you make them move 13" you have a 4+/6++ unless you commit the Marshal but he's not free of charge. Though of course I agree Dragoons have the mobility against Robots no contest. I'd argue that they only need to be near the Datasmith on the turn prior to the charge for the protocol change. Afterwards they only need him if they want to have <Core> or to be repaired.

You should never use the protocol change. Performing an action turns off auras, which means no Core for your Robots for an entire turn. We're still going to use Binharic Override. =\

Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, this is the most tryhard list I have come up with so far:

Spoiler:

Infiltrators to scout deploy to a far objective. Raiders will go to back them up and screen a flank.

Two blobs of Rangers move up on turn one under Bulwark and Shroudpsalm. Manipulus and Marshal B babysit them with rerolls and the ability to fall back and shoot. They also have data-tether so Marshal A can give them cover at will.

Double Archaeopter bomb the enemy and slow enemy units.

Dominus and Marshal A babysit the firebase, which is a massive deathball of chickens with rerolls. Logi will be used to give them even more durability.

Pteraxii will abuse Booster to jump around spitting shots and MWs. Tesla Skull also looks like great value.

**Lord Clinto**

Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah I’m not sure I want to rely on bouncing around with a disgusting strat that’s likely going to be FaQed for Sterylizors to be good. Are they good without the strat?

Also, when arming Skitarii, would you give squads of 10 (I know it’s not the optimal) Rangers a plasma? Or just stick them with their basic rifles?

It probably depends on whether the plasma actually has a 30" range or not; that was the biggest reason I only used them with my vanguard.