So I think the Helldrakes are pretty cool flyers - some may not agree with me because they have limited firepower and BS 3, but being an Ork player BS 3 is awesome. I wish the Hadesautocannon was TL but it is not. But the swooping attack, it will not die and the ability to have a 5+ invuln and not have to jink is great.... I thought that the autocannon was going to be the only way to go, but I think that the flamer with torrent is pretty cool too and could ever potentially hit multiple vehicles if it is allowed to shoot at other vehicles, but the picture in the book of it blasting a vendetta's cockpit makes it look like you can.... Wondering what people's thoughts were on weapon layout...

It can't fire the flamer at air units for the same reason the Doom Scythe can't hit flyers. It has to roll to hit. The picture is just for fluff.

That said, I'd probably take the flamer anyway. If you want to deal with air units, the Vector Strike is a better bet than the Autocannon (not really that much, but still better), and if you're vector striking then you're flying past the unit you want to kill anyway.

I'd go with the flamer as well. No rolling to hit or scatter or anything like that. You just lay that template down however you like within 12" of the beast.

Here's the thing about the Vector Strike... it's better than most Flying MC's. Daemon Princes are str 6, for pete's sake, and the Heldrake can fly a lot farther and vector strike at str 7.

If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

The Heldrake's Vector Strike will be great against weak (AV10 and 11) flyers, but against Stormravens and Vendettas the Heldrake will come of much the worse even with a cannon chosen instead of the flamer (and the flamer will make the Heldrake much more effective against ground troops)

The Heldrake is pretty good at an Anti-Infantry role. It can easily destroy troops meant for the sole purpose of back field objective holding or eliminating large foot squads. Its going to force armies to hybridize or go mech again since most lists now are foot based. I think Havocs will be the choice in the Chaos Space Marine codex to deal with Vendettas and Stormravens. The Vector Strike of the Heldrake isn't good against Stormravens and the Autocannon is meh too because of BS3. The Havocs are better against the Stormraven in every situation.

 Blood and Slaughter wrote:
The Heldrake's Vector Strike will be great against weak (AV10 and 11) flyers, but against Stormravens and Vendettas the Heldrake will come of much the worse even with a cannon chosen instead of the flamer (and the flamer will make the Heldrake much more effective against ground troops)

Edit: nevermind.

Outloads?

Kevlar wrote:

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

You might wanna check the Hades Cannon again... it's S8. So that's a 5 to pen AV 12. Without the Demonforge you're looking at 66.66% chance of a pen on AV 12 which is more than 7% better than a Tesla Destructor. Using the Demonforge you average 1.112 pens on AV 12 which put's it in the same ballpark as a Vendetta (for one phase). It's also 5 points cheaper than a Havoc squad with 4x ML w/ flakk. The Heldrake is the most efficient and effective Anti-Air CSM have access to in the codex and there isn't much competition for the FA slot. It's also the toughest bird in the air, as it's the only flier that gets a 5+ save without evading. It is however, like every other CSM Vehicle, grotesquely overpriced. I don't think having IWND and a 5++ is worth the 40 points it costs more than a Vendetta.

Yeah I agree on the price... I see the point of the templates, but I do like the Hades autocannon at S8 I think it can deal with flyers, but at BS3 not as well... I think I will still go with the autocannon..

 Tarrasq wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

You might wanna check the Hades Cannon again... it's S8. So that's a 5 to pen AV 12. Without the Demonforge you're looking at 66.66% chance of a pen on AV 12 which is more than 7% better than a Tesla Destructor. Using the Demonforge you average 1.112 pens on AV 12 which put's it in the same ballpark as a Vendetta (for one phase). It's also 5 points cheaper than a Havoc squad with 4x ML w/ flakk. The Heldrake is the most efficient and effective Anti-Air CSM have access to in the codex and there isn't much competition for the FA slot. It's also the toughest bird in the air, as it's the only flier that gets a 5+ save without evading. It is however, like every other CSM Vehicle, grotesquely overpriced. I don't think having IWND and a 5++ is worth the 40 points it costs more than a Vendetta.

I didn't realize it was S8. That does make it a bit nicer. I still think a havoc squad manning an aegis defense line with quad gun giving the extra man something to do will be my go to anti air. The dragon isn't a bad vehicle, I just think it is better served in the anti infantry role.

As for fast attack, I think it will be quite a competitive slot with bikers being ridiculously under priced, and spawns actually being useful. T6 multi-wound models with decent attacks and now good movement. Think about how tough it is to remove necron tomb spiders. Now we get access to fast ones sort of.

I agree the fast attack slot is a tough one, but I just love flyers, so will probably go with them. I am looking to do a Tzeench themed army, thousand sons are pretty good anti-infantry, I agree a squad of havocs with flakk and someone manning a quad gun is pretty buff

Edit: corrected for Heldrake's 5+ invun

Remember it won't be possible to engage the same enemy with Vector Strike and Hades Cannon. The advantage of a Hades Cannon is that it may be possible to engage two enemy flyers (one with Hades Cannon, one with Vector Strike) but that's it's only advantage; it's otherwise inferior even to the puny 2 dark lance razorwing in hitting power versus flyers.

Chances to destroy are based on a single turn's shooting from the specified flyer and include destruction from multiple glances and penetrations as well as outright explosions. Bear in mind that a stormraven with TL psycannon and TL melta can engage two targets with a better chance of destroying either than a Heldrake. Also note that I haven't factored extra tesla hits so the scythes actually hit a bit harder on average.

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 22% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 20% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 33% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 33% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 44% chance to destroy Razorwing (AV10, flickerfield)

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 25% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 25% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 38% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 54% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 56% chance to destroy vs Nightwing/scythe (AV11)

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 11% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 15% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 19% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 17% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 26% chance to destroy vs Stormraven (AV12)

Heldrake: Vector Strike - 11% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Heldrake: Hades Cannon - 15% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 17% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 19% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 49% chance to destroy vs Vendetta (AV12)

Razorwing: 2 dark lances - 10% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)
Nightwing/scythe: TL tesla - 15% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)
Vendetta: 3 TL lascannon - 26% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)
Stormraven: TL multi-melta, TL lascannon - 33% chance to destroy vs Heldrake (AV12, 5++)

The Heldrake is a useful flyer, no doubt. But its strength will be its ability to target flyers via Vector Strike and ground targets via its flamer in the same turn, as dedicated dogfighter, it's back of the pack, even taking into account relative costs.

I see your point... Hmmmmm I think I will magnetize my helldrake so I can swap out depending on what I would like to use. Very good analyzing Blood and Slaughter - much thanks

The numbers are off, the Heldrake has a 5++ save that isn't being factored in.

You're quite right. I was just editing that in, sorry. I'll correct it in the post above asap.

Post now corrected. Still not great for the Helddrake though as a dogfighter, though as I say run with the flamer, it seems very versatile.

thanks for the correction

Yeah, against flyers use its Str7 vector strike and use the Flamer to boil ground targets.

And hey, if enemy flyers go into hover mode you can use the flamer against them there.

Anyone find it funny that the Codex picture of the Helldrake has it actually using its Flamer on another Flyer?

Yes I agree going through a vendetta cockpit. I was hoping for a special rule to include their template to affect flyers... would have been cool

Well who's to say that the Vector Strike does not include use of the flamer?

I don't think everything needs a literal rules interpretation to work fluff-wise.

Or maybe the Vendetta is in Hover mode

Lou_Cypher wrote:
Anyone find it funny that the Codex picture of the Helldrake has it actually using its Flamer on another Flyer?

Its using it on a Valkyrie/Vendetta, which have hover.

If it can Vector Strike a flyer and do automatic hits, the the Flamer does seem like a better option to make it versatile, and thus worth the obscene amount of points. Something that is effective against land units and fliers is worth a bit more in my opinion. However I will also be magnetizing so I can test them both out.

170 points for an AV 12-12-10 5++ flyercapable of Vector Strike and with two weapons options -- one of which is very good indeed -- is hardly 'obscene'.

Dang, its that cheap?

Even the Vendetta might be blushing

I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

 Tarrasq wrote:
I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

Can that flyer make swoop attacks fire an amazing template weapon while getting a 5++ save without jinking?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

Can that flyer make swoop attacks fire an amazing template weapon while getting a 5++ save without jinking?

For the love of god no, Vendetta doesnt have to be any better.

And Ward writes the 6th ed IG codex

Where Guardsmen have the Badass special rule. The rule states that every time a Guardsmen dies, roll a D6. On a 5+ the guardsmen is revealed to be a Badass, the model doesn't die and gains a 4+ invulnerable save and the FnP special rule. Their melee and ranged attacks also gain the Rending special rule. Everytime a Badass dies, roll another D6. On a 4+ he actually doesn't die because he was a Badass. On a 1-3 he actually is dead and no amount of plot armor can save him, but he'll make an excellent dramatic moment in the novel

Even their vehicles have the Badass special rule.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And Ward writes the 6th ed IG codex

Where Guardsmen have the Badass special rule. The rule states that every time a Guardsmen dies, roll a D6. On a 5+ the guardsmen is revealed to be a Badass, the model doesn't die and gains a 4+ invulnerable save and the FnP special rule. Their melee and ranged attacks also gain the Rending special rule. Everytime a Badass dies, roll another D6. On a 4+ he actually doesn't die because he was a Badass. On a 1-3 he actually is dead and no amount of plot armor can save him, but he'll make an excellent dramatic moment in the novel

Even their vehicles have the Badass special rule.

Meh, wait til Dan Abnett writes the IG codex. Then you are all doomed! WAHHAHAHAHHAHa

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
. I thought that the autocannon was going to be the only way to go, but I think that the flamer with torrent is pretty cool too and could ever potentially hit multiple vehicles if it is allowed to shoot at other vehicles, but the picture in the book of it blasting a vendetta's cockpit makes it look like you can.... Wondering what people's thoughts were on weapon layout...

it can hit vehicles provided they are ground vehicles or flyers in hovermode.


layout is a funny word for a vehicle that has only 2 options. The autocannon or the flamer. anti infantry or anti tank/flyer. only 2 choices


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

str8 pens av12 on a 5 or 6, glances on a 4. rerolling and most hits are gonna do something. problem is hitting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Using the Demonforge you average 1.112 pens on AV 12 which put's it in the same ballpark as a Vendetta (for one phase). It's also 5 points cheaper than a Havoc squad with 4x ML w/ flakk. The Heldrake is the most efficient and effective Anti-Air CSM have access to in the codex and there isn't much competition for the FA slot. It's also the toughest bird in the air, as it's the only flier that gets a 5+ save without evading. It is however, like every other CSM Vehicle, grotesquely overpriced. I don't think having IWND and a 5++ is worth the 40 points it costs more than a Vendetta.

DE flyers have a 5++ without evading, but are av10 or 11 and no IWND

havocs with flakk are way overpriced, never worth taking unless you are facing a daemon flying circus and have no other options.

Vendettas are the best flyer in the game being undercosted by about 50 points. I hope they never make anything better than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

and it competes with what in the guard FC slot?

Chaos bikes and raptors aren't bad.

I'm sticking to the hellcannon thing. I can vector strike one thing, blast another.

I don't need anti-meq in the list, that's what the flamer is, I need my anti-tank.

It depends what run. I like the Forgefiend so If I run a few of these, then the Autocannon will be the pick. I got my modelst together this weekend and magnetized the weapons so I can swithc them out. But just like many flyers in 6th I think they will run better in groups of 2-3. That way if you lose one to intercept, you hopefully have another on the board. Cheers

Vector strike and the auto canon are ap 3 and 4 respectively, which makes it far worse IMO at any AT or AA role. I am personally going to be taking raptors bikes and spawn, 170 for something coming in from reserve to fire its template just isn't worth the hassle of transporting that giant thing lol. Good luck fiting an entire tac squad under that things template to pay for itself before it flies off the table again. Which brings me to it's other issue, it's good attacks require it to get so close to it's target it will only have an impact every other turn after it arrives.

I'll wait for more feedback, maybe it will prove dominant.

It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

I magnetized my Helldrake's weapons and my Forgefiend's weapons as well so I can change them out if I want to... Though I think with my forgefiend I will be using the autocannons the most and maybe the plasma head mount

 Grey Templar wrote:
It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

Maybe so, I think people like to forget that their opponent can use LoS, cover and movement to mitigate this a lot though so we'll see.

I think that the vector strike will be very good, the unfortunate or bad point to this model is the low amount of dakka it can put out, but I have kind of been swung in a different direction since first reading about these flyers and I do think that the flamer option has a greater potential for damage in the game, esp. since there are more foot heavy lists out there. Cheers all

Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Helldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

Maybe so, I think people like to forget that their opponent can use LoS, cover and movement to mitigate this a lot though so we'll see.

the helldrake is a new beast as its flamer ignores cover. If it can see you it can kill you.
Granted it is probably too expensive and you can unclump your models as best you can but cover will not save you.

The Baleflamer is still S6. So while Vector Striking tanks might not be the best option (hits side armour i believe), the flamer will still penetrate rear armour 10 fairly easily.


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 Ovion wrote:
Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Helldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

Where are you getting 24 S8 shots from 2 Forgefiends.

they can each take 2 hades cannons (8 shots each so 16 total)
Or the can take 3 ectoplasma cannons- which means 3 x blast per model.

i dont think there is an option to take a third hades cannon.

no but you can take a plasma for the head even with the hades autocannon, but that does not equal 24 shots

 Praxiss wrote:
The Baleflamer is still S6. So while Vector Striking tanks might not be the best option (hits side armour i believe), the flamer will still penetrate rear armour 10 fairly easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:
Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Helldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

Where are you getting 24 S8 shots from 2 Forgefiends.

they can each take 2 hades cannons (8 shots each so 16 total)
Or the can take 3 ectoplasma cannons- which means 3 x blast per model.

i dont think there is an option to take a third hades cannon.

If you add the 2 Heldrakes with hades autocannons thats another eight shots.

doh

 Praxiss wrote:
The Baleflamer is still S6. So while Vector Striking tanks might not be the best option (hits side armour i believe), the flamer will still penetrate rear armour 10 fairly easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:
Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Heldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

Where are you getting 24 S8 shots from 2 Forgefiends.

they can each take 2 hades cannons (8 shots each so 16 total)
Or the can take 3 ectoplasma cannons- which means 3 x blast per model.

i dont think there is an option to take a third hades cannon.

6x Hades Autocannon (2x2 On Forgefiends, 2 on Heldrakes) is 24 shots.

At the end of the day, I'm hoping that Fabius / a Lord, 1-2 units of Terminators, 2-4 units of CSM 2 units of cultists, a pair of Heldrakes, a pair of Forgefiends and a CSM Landraider (or Defiler) will make a nicely rounded Take All Comers style force.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
doh

Seconded.

 Exergy wrote:


the helldrake is a new beast as its flamer ignores cover. If it can see you it can kill you.
Granted it is probably too expensive and you can unclump your models as best you can but cover will not save you.

Its flamer ignores cover? unlike the other flamers out there ?

Jokes asides- its not so much that its anti-infantry

It's anti-meq in a big way, and the more you unclump the easier it is for my plasma to catch you out of cover

Sit in cover to dodge plasma rounds, or expose models to avoid a potential S6 AP3 flamer practically wherever you want it?
That has big value vs MEQ's.

The Flamer has one good purpose I learned the hard way... if you aren't on multi-levels, you're Marines are toast.

Losing almost a full squad of Long Fangs a turn to two of those things isn't fun. The derp gun feels like a waste when you can deliver, the turn it comes on, Marine BBQ action. Oh, and Guardsmen camped behind an Aegis? Burnt to a crisp, too. Just nuke the command squad and then come back around for the rest later.

Seriously, if those flamers take off, good luck seeing foot lists.

One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

No but many other armies will soon find how much cover is trying to scraped for and how template weapons can destroy now along with ordnance barrage.

Squad of 9 Flamers is enough to make someone poo a little.

AP3 flamers have always roasted everything in their path. The only difference is the Helldrake has pinpoint accuracy and all but garunteed alpha strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only difference is the Helldrake has pinpoint accuracy and all but garunteed alpha strike.

Guaranteed turn two through four alpha strike? Is that really an alpha strike? I mean come on, a unit of tzeentch flamers can drop down and flame you turn one before you even have time to tie your shoe laces.

By Alpha Strike I mean something thats unavoidable and hard hitting. Not that it hits you on turn 1. Maybe a poor choice of words.

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

Yes, yes it will. Helldrakes are game breaking and will redefine the meta.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

Yes, yes it will. Helldrakes are game breaking and will redefine the meta.

O'right, I totally forgot about that. What was I thinking

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

Maybe so, I think people like to forget that their opponent can use LoS, cover and movement to mitigate this a lot though so we'll see.

Only if you've reduced their army considerably. Especially in the case of the Baleflamer, there should always be a target somewhere. And it can switch to hover mode.

Funnily enough, it could combo with the Masque well enough.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

Yes, yes it will. Helldrakes are game breaking and will redefine the meta.

I really hope you are being sarcastic. I truly hope so because a flamer template doesn't hit very many models if your opponent is smart and it will not invalidate foot lists at all if played correctly.

Ok, sold. Baleflamer it is.

Why is there a discussion between 2 str 8 hits on average and a str 6 ap 3 torrent?

You can come in and start terrorizing stuff, I personally am afraid of the Helldrake with a baleflamer.

Baleflamers are awesome, especially as you start to see people rely on devastator squads with flakk...

I like the Hades too though. It's more versatile, st 8 and pinning, and the daemonforge ability is great. If you spam the Hades and maybe some blastmasters too, good chance that those blobs/deathstar units will just get pinned and be able to do nothing.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

Yes, yes it will. Helldrakes are game breaking and will redefine the meta.

That's not really how the meta works though. If people stopped taking certain things in their lists just because there's a new hard counter there'd be nothing left. People already stopped taking tonnes of vehicles and lightened it out to deal with infantry for 6th, if they don't take mech and stop taking infantry what's left? All the Heldrake will do is make people start taking AA seriously, as they should have done from the start.

 Meade wrote:
Baleflamers are awesome, especially as you start to see people rely on devastator squads with flakk...

Why would people rely on a unit that doesn't exist?

When your army's only choice for effective AA is allies or an Aegis Defense Line, the only person that wins is GW for me having to buy more models... so that's lame.

Second, it's a torrent flamer and can be placed in any fashion 12" away. If you're foot slogging, even in a 2" formation, they can toast a good portion of the squad. If it's a Dev unit, like my Long Fangs that I twin-link to deal with flyers, along with a Rifleman, then one Bale Flamer can pick up almost the entire squad.

I played against a list with 2 + Vendetta + AC Havocs + IG w/ AC + Oblits. The worst part was getting knocked out of vehicles, forced to deploy in small areas (or worse, blown out and cratered) and then the Helldrake picking up almost the entire unit. With that sort of 1 - 2 Punch, you better believe that's game changing.

TheKbob wrote:

I played against a list with 2 + Vendetta + AC Havocs + IG w/ AC + Oblits. The worst part was getting knocked out of vehicles, forced to deploy in small areas (or worse, blown out and cratered) and then the Helldrake picking up almost the entire unit. With that sort of 1 - 2 Punch, you better believe that's game changing.

Exactly. The only reason I can think of that people are fighting this fact is they haven't played against Helldrakes yet.

When you do, you will be livid.

Yeah they are awesome, but it doesn't mean everyone is going to start hiding in tanks again.

Ok, can't wait to try mine out now.

With a S6 flamer you have a chance to pop a tank with it if you get the right approch. as well.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Meade wrote:
Baleflamers are awesome, especially as you start to see people rely on devastator squads with flakk...

Why would people rely on a unit that doesn't exist?

Oh, so you think that space marines will not get flakk missiles then? It is just a chaos thing?

Foot MARINE lists care about the AP3 flamers, for ork or IG foot it is no more effective than an incinerator.

Not to mention they prb just bring Dakka jets or Vendettas to shoot it down...

True, Guard lists won't care about the AP3. But the Flamer is just as effective against T3 as it is against T4. Its killing on 2s in both cases.

I think all AP3 flamers are at least Str6.

 Jackster wrote:
Foot MARINE lists care about the AP3 flamers, for ork or IG foot it is no more effective than an incinerator.

Not to mention they prb just bring Dakka jets or Vendettas to shoot it down...

Hah, you forgot one thing. This is a S6,AP3 flamer delivered on your doorstep 12" away in any direction the turn it arrives. So it can and will snipe heavy weapons teams, command units, etc.

It's not only the weapon but the delivery. You can move one, crack a tank with your vector strike, and then position another to roast the contents since they are now all nice and bundled up.

A list of three of these things coupled with cheap AC wielding Havocs is going to be a nightmare for almost any army.

 Jackster wrote:

Not to mention they prb just bring Dakka jets or Vendettas to shoot it down...

Not real likely on Dakkajets.

 Meade wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Meade wrote:
Baleflamers are awesome, especially as you start to see people rely on devastator squads with flakk...

Why would people rely on a unit that doesn't exist?

Oh, so you think that space marines will not get flakk missiles then? It is just a chaos thing?

They probably will, but they don't right now, and they aren't due a new book for awhile. So it's not really part of the discussion.

They may get a 'soft' update in a White Dwarf booklet / new tablet release though.

Honestly, in some ways (if done correctly) it could mean a better game if they went digital...

With errata and FAQs being done digitally, any glaring power issues / wargear changes, etc able to be changed...

TheKbob wrote:
When your army's only choice for effective AA is allies or an Aegis Defense Line, the only person that wins is GW for me having to buy more models... so that's lame.

Second, it's a torrent flamer and can be placed in any fashion 12" away. If you're foot slogging, even in a 2" formation, they can toast a good portion of the squad. If it's a Dev unit, like my Long Fangs that I twin-link to deal with flyers, along with a Rifleman, then one Bale Flamer can pick up almost the entire squad.

I played against a list with 2 + Vendetta + AC Havocs + IG w/ AC + Oblits. The worst part was getting knocked out of vehicles, forced to deploy in small areas (or worse, blown out and cratered) and then the Helldrake picking up almost the entire unit. With that sort of 1 - 2 Punch, you better believe that's game changing.

As a wise compatriot of mine so recently said....

I'm only taking one of these to have an answer for Codex: Long Fangs.

 Ovion wrote:
They may get a 'soft' update in a White Dwarf booklet / new tablet release though.

Do you really think GW would only give their beloved Codex: Space Marines a White Dwarf update? Hell would sooner freeze over.

As a marine player the helldrake sounds like a highly mobile redeemer thats hard to kill

Already we are bending lists to deal w fliers, witness awesome dakka threads on Stormtalons, AGL and bastions, yet this beastie really rams home your either back to mech, which is expensive in points or meh if using rhinos, or building for anti flier.

As a cynic my real concern is everyone goes and reacts to this ruleset, buys fliers, terrain, havocs etc and then the cheap counters come on in a year or two.

Back to the thread yep S6 AP3 projected flamer on awesome looking model is the go. There will be lots of marine lists poorly tooled to handle it and it will make BBQ powerarmour crackling for you.

Did i mention it looks awesome?

 Boneblade wrote:

TheKbob wrote:
When your army's only choice for effective AA is allies or an Aegis Defense Line, the only person that wins is GW for me having to buy more models... so that's lame.

Second, it's a torrent flamer and can be placed in any fashion 12" away. If you're foot slogging, even in a 2" formation, they can toast a good portion of the squad. If it's a Dev unit, like my Long Fangs that I twin-link to deal with flyers, along with a Rifleman, then one Bale Flamer can pick up almost the entire squad.

I played against a list with 2 + Vendetta + AC Havocs + IG w/ AC + Oblits. The worst part was getting knocked out of vehicles, forced to deploy in small areas (or worse, blown out and cratered) and then the Helldrake picking up almost the entire unit. With that sort of 1 - 2 Punch, you better believe that's game changing.

As a wise compatriot of mine so recently said....

I'm only taking one of these to have an answer for Codex: Long Fangs.

Gonna be Codex Havocs/Heldrakes soon enough!

Plus, since the aegis doesn't fit my play style, I'm bringing a Skyshield. Burn through a 4+ invuln save.

Codex: Long Fangs? Your compatriot is an idiot

/trollface
/trollface
/trollface
/trollface
/trollface

Actually mech is a pretty bad counter for the helldrake. It just makes it easier for it to kill more if they are able to take out the transport, now you are much more bunched up than if you could spread out.

I was building my list and realized that I had little to no ability to take out transports so that I could flame the contents. Thinking about oblits and/or havocs to fill that gap.

Forgefiends should be good at that task too.
8 Str8 shots should really kill any transport you point it at.
Or most vehicles you point it at... and badly hurt any troops.

BA can still FNP it, thankfully.

Best counter for helldrake? Deathwing.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
They may get a 'soft' update in a White Dwarf booklet / new tablet release though.

Do you really think GW would only give their beloved Codex: Space Marines a White Dwarf update? Hell would sooner freeze over.

There are rumors that they will update space marines across the board to purchase Flakk's. When I say space marines i don't only mean codex: space marines. You think they would let their beloved codex be without flakk for long? When chaos gets them? I kind of doubt it.

Not to mention Dark Angels will surely get it... in the very least...

I am giving myself baleflamers on my helldrakes and just going to do my best to ignore fliers outside of a quadgun. I dont play any flying circus/crossoint armys so I am not too worried about it. I am just going to take ground troops to be my anti tank.

First you crack the shell then the nuts inside - transformers, 1988

We have quite a few flyers here. So I think I will be using quad guns, helldrakes and likely Flakk

 Meade wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Ovion wrote:
They may get a 'soft' update in a White Dwarf booklet / new tablet release though.

Do you really think GW would only give their beloved Codex: Space Marines a White Dwarf update? Hell would sooner freeze over.

There are rumors that they will update space marines across the board to purchase Flakk's. When I say space marines i don't only mean codex: space marines. You think they would let their beloved codex be without flakk for long? When chaos gets them? I kind of doubt it.

Not to mention Dark Angels will surely get it... in the very least...

Yes actually as only one of the various Chapter codices is due for a re-release soon, and they certainly won't be replying on Flakk Devastators (and not just because Flakk Havocs have shown that Flakk is not something to rely on). You are trying to be funny and smart in your post, but all you are showing is a lack of knowledge of how GW runs things.

So simply put, still, no, everyone is not going to be relying on Flakk Devastators.

No one here works for GW so no one really knows, lets all be cordial to each other please.

Dropped a Maulerfiend and some psychic gear on an HQ to add a 2nd Helldrake with a Baleflamer.

They are stupid.

As in good.

I am staring at that Hades fiercely, but the Baleflamer is just too good. Sorry but even against terminators, the more saves I make someone make the better. Baleflamer seems best

I was also thinking about something else... Let's say you REALLY wanna reach out and touch those Long Fangs and you have your two drakes armed with a Hades and Baleflamer. It would suck to have only the Hades arrive when you really want the Torrent weapon.

So yeah, two. Also, the Vector Strike helps with Drop Pods in your deployment zone, leaving your troops to focus on killing the enemy instead of glancing useless transports.

As time goes on I am thinking the baleflamers are the way to go... thanks for the post

I played a game against one of these yesterday and was pretty impressed--by the cannon option.

Baleflamer seems redundant. Chaos also gets
-Doom Sirens
-Wind of Chaos
-Burning Brand of Skalathrax

Which can go on various flying, bike-mounted or steeded characters to get close when needed, although you don't need to be that close for the Burning Brand.

Or you can ally with daemons for flamers and their various other template powers.

The impressive thing about the flying hades autocannon for me is that it's both superfast-durable-mobile-antitank and anti-air, which are two things that chaos has trouble getting in other slots.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I played a game against one of these yesterday and was pretty impressed--by the cannon option.

Baleflamer seems redundant. Chaos also gets
-Doom Sirens
-Wind of Chaos
-Burning Brand of Skalathrax

Which can go on various flying, bike-mounted or steeded characters to get close when needed, although you don't need to be that close for the Burning Brand

Doomsirens only go on noise marines
Wind of chaos you need to roll for, and the most you can roll on the Tzeentch chart is twice
Burning brand is one per army and has to be on a commander

Helldrakes come from reserve leaving the opponent no chance to stop them swooping in and cooking a squad of preferably marines

I just don't see it

 Jihallah wrote:

Helldrakes come from reserve leaving the opponent no chance to stop them swooping in and cooking a squad of preferably marines

I just don't see it

With the exception of interceptor guns anyway, though the helldrake has a fairly good chance of surviving against thos.

Both option on helldrake are legit IMO, a flyer packing 4 S8 shot is something worthy of respect. You can vector strike a transport and shoot another one.

And Str8 against Flyers is amazing. Most skyfire options are only Str7, or have one shot. The Hades has multiple shots AND Str8.

It's a tough choice between an absolutely murderous combination of mobility and anti meq firepower in an army built to slaughter MEQ, or a really good air to air gun. The answer is really simple: whatever you decide to take the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

How are CSM built to slaughter MEQ, as a codex I mean?

I'm not seeing anything that makes them better at killing MEQs then other codices as a whole.


VotLW is nice, but its hardly game changing vs MEQs.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How are CSM built to slaughter MEQ, as a codex I mean?

I'm not seeing anything that makes them better at killing MEQs then other codices as a whole.


VotLW is nice, but its hardly game changing vs MEQs.

50% additional hits on the charge is nothing to sneeze at, in addition to the chance of preferred enemy sm.

bthom37 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
How are CSM built to slaughter MEQ, as a codex I mean?

I'm not seeing anything that makes them better at killing MEQs then other codices as a whole.


VotLW is nice, but its hardly game changing vs MEQs.

50% additional hits on the charge is nothing to sneeze at, in addition to the chance of preferred enemy sm.

It's 1 point a model to increase damage by 50% on the charge. It's like having a chaplain in a 10 man squad for 10 points. They are built to fight sm.

 Grey Templar wrote:
How are CSM built to slaughter MEQ, as a codex I mean?

I'm not seeing anything that makes them better at killing MEQs then other codices as a whole.


VotLW is nice, but its hardly game changing vs MEQs.

Noise Marines plus Helldrakes makes a mess out of MEQs.

 Jihallah wrote:

Doomsirens only go on noise marines
Wind of chaos you need to roll for, and the most you can roll on the Tzeentch chart is twice
Burning brand is one per army and has to be on a commander

Helldrakes come from reserve leaving the opponent no chance to stop them swooping in and cooking a squad of preferably marines

I just don't see it

So buy noise marines :p Fearless I5 chaos marines for only a few points more? They've been a great value since 4th edition (as long as you don't waste points on the sonic weapons).

And every army needs a commander. The Burning Brand seems like a no-brainer to me for 30 points or whatever. It's not like any of the other artifacts are worth taking.

Wind of chaos, I agree, took a bit of a hit. But flamers of Tzeench--who doesn't have a couple of extra flamer models knocking around the house?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

TheKbob wrote:

I played against a list with 2 + Vendetta + AC Havocs + IG w/ AC + Oblits. The worst part was getting knocked out of vehicles, forced to deploy in small areas (or worse, blown out and cratered) and then the Helldrake picking up almost the entire unit. With that sort of 1 - 2 Punch, you better believe that's game changing.

Exactly. The only reason I can think of that people are fighting this fact is they haven't played against Helldrakes yet.

When you do, you will be livid.

Are you sure you're not still thinking in terms of old wound allocation rules, DarknessEternal?

When I need a unit to survive in the open, I put a 2+ save character out in front. Those AP3 hits only kill models until you get to the 2+ guy, then he soaks the rest of them.

I realize that a flyer has more options for its angle of approach and might be able to toast a couple of guys before the character gets hit. But it's still limited in the same way as any other direct-fire weapon.

It's not redundant if you don't actually take any of the other options..

Has others have pointed out in other threads, the best advantage is that vectored strike goes off first before shooting.
So you can vector strike a rhino/chimera, then if you pop it, drop the S6 love on the bunched up guys who get out.

My problem with the Helldrake is that it's UGLY.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Has others have pointed out in other threads, the best advantage is that vectored strike goes off first before shooting.
So you can vector strike a rhino/chimera, then if you pop it, drop the S6 love on the bunched up guys who get out.

My problem with the Helldrake is that it's UGLY.

-Matt

My only real issue is the gaping anal jet exhaust.
But then that's what bitz boxes and greenstuff are for!

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Has others have pointed out in other threads, the best advantage is that vectored strike goes off first before shooting.
So you can vector strike a rhino/chimera, then if you pop it, drop the S6 love on the bunched up guys who get out.

My problem with the Helldrake is that it's UGLY.

-Matt

you could open the vehicle but would not be able to shoot them as you would be moving over it and can not come back around, but the rest of your army could shoot at it.