Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And Ward writes the 6th ed IG codex

Where Guardsmen have the Badass special rule. The rule states that every time a Guardsmen dies, roll a D6. On a 5+ the guardsmen is revealed to be a Badass, the model doesn't die and gains a 4+ invulnerable save and the FnP special rule. Their melee and ranged attacks also gain the Rending special rule. Everytime a Badass dies, roll another D6. On a 4+ he actually doesn't die because he was a Badass. On a 1-3 he actually is dead and no amount of plot armor can save him, but he'll make an excellent dramatic moment in the novel

Even their vehicles have the Badass special rule.

Meh, wait til Dan Abnett writes the IG codex. Then you are all doomed! WAHHAHAHAHHAHa

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
. I thought that the autocannon was going to be the only way to go, but I think that the flamer with torrent is pretty cool too and could ever potentially hit multiple vehicles if it is allowed to shoot at other vehicles, but the picture in the book of it blasting a vendetta's cockpit makes it look like you can.... Wondering what people's thoughts were on weapon layout...

it can hit vehicles provided they are ground vehicles or flyers in hovermode.


layout is a funny word for a vehicle that has only 2 options. The autocannon or the flamer. anti infantry or anti tank/flyer. only 2 choices


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:

drbored wrote:


If you really need a flyer hunter though, take the Autocannon and rely on that Daemonforge ability. Re-rolling your pen will down even a Stormraven.

Once per game? And you need a 6 to pen? Yeah, that will work. The dragon is o.k. Nothing special. It certainly won't be challenging vendettas for king of the skies. Its probably better zooming around and flaming infantry units.

str8 pens av12 on a 5 or 6, glances on a 4. rerolling and most hits are gonna do something. problem is hitting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
Using the Demonforge you average 1.112 pens on AV 12 which put's it in the same ballpark as a Vendetta (for one phase). It's also 5 points cheaper than a Havoc squad with 4x ML w/ flakk. The Heldrake is the most efficient and effective Anti-Air CSM have access to in the codex and there isn't much competition for the FA slot. It's also the toughest bird in the air, as it's the only flier that gets a 5+ save without evading. It is however, like every other CSM Vehicle, grotesquely overpriced. I don't think having IWND and a 5++ is worth the 40 points it costs more than a Vendetta.

DE flyers have a 5++ without evading, but are av10 or 11 and no IWND

havocs with flakk are way overpriced, never worth taking unless you are facing a daemon flying circus and have no other options.

Vendettas are the best flyer in the game being undercosted by about 50 points. I hope they never make anything better than that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I compare it to a 12 12 10 flying transport with 3x TLLC for that can switch to hover to turn 180 for 130 points...and it can squadron.

and it competes with what in the guard FC slot?

Chaos bikes and raptors aren't bad.

I'm sticking to the hellcannon thing. I can vector strike one thing, blast another.

I don't need anti-meq in the list, that's what the flamer is, I need my anti-tank.

It depends what run. I like the Forgefiend so If I run a few of these, then the Autocannon will be the pick. I got my modelst together this weekend and magnetized the weapons so I can swithc them out. But just like many flyers in 6th I think they will run better in groups of 2-3. That way if you lose one to intercept, you hopefully have another on the board. Cheers

Vector strike and the auto canon are ap 3 and 4 respectively, which makes it far worse IMO at any AT or AA role. I am personally going to be taking raptors bikes and spawn, 170 for something coming in from reserve to fire its template just isn't worth the hassle of transporting that giant thing lol. Good luck fiting an entire tac squad under that things template to pay for itself before it flies off the table again. Which brings me to it's other issue, it's good attacks require it to get so close to it's target it will only have an impact every other turn after it arrives.

I'll wait for more feedback, maybe it will prove dominant.

It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

I magnetized my Helldrake's weapons and my Forgefiend's weapons as well so I can change them out if I want to... Though I think with my forgefiend I will be using the autocannons the most and maybe the plasma head mount

 Grey Templar wrote:
It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

Maybe so, I think people like to forget that their opponent can use LoS, cover and movement to mitigate this a lot though so we'll see.

I think that the vector strike will be very good, the unfortunate or bad point to this model is the low amount of dakka it can put out, but I have kind of been swung in a different direction since first reading about these flyers and I do think that the flamer option has a greater potential for damage in the game, esp. since there are more foot heavy lists out there. Cheers all

Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Helldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

Maybe so, I think people like to forget that their opponent can use LoS, cover and movement to mitigate this a lot though so we'll see.

the helldrake is a new beast as its flamer ignores cover. If it can see you it can kill you.
Granted it is probably too expensive and you can unclump your models as best you can but cover will not save you.

The Baleflamer is still S6. So while Vector Striking tanks might not be the best option (hits side armour i believe), the flamer will still penetrate rear armour 10 fairly easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:
Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Helldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

Where are you getting 24 S8 shots from 2 Forgefiends.

they can each take 2 hades cannons (8 shots each so 16 total)
Or the can take 3 ectoplasma cannons- which means 3 x blast per model.

i dont think there is an option to take a third hades cannon.

no but you can take a plasma for the head even with the hades autocannon, but that does not equal 24 shots

 Praxiss wrote:
The Baleflamer is still S6. So while Vector Striking tanks might not be the best option (hits side armour i believe), the flamer will still penetrate rear armour 10 fairly easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:
Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Helldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

Where are you getting 24 S8 shots from 2 Forgefiends.

they can each take 2 hades cannons (8 shots each so 16 total)
Or the can take 3 ectoplasma cannons- which means 3 x blast per model.

i dont think there is an option to take a third hades cannon.

If you add the 2 Heldrakes with hades autocannons thats another eight shots.

doh

 Praxiss wrote:
The Baleflamer is still S6. So while Vector Striking tanks might not be the best option (hits side armour i believe), the flamer will still penetrate rear armour 10 fairly easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:
Personally, I intend to grab 2 with the Hades Autocannons. The 4 Str8 shots are overall more useful to me then the template.

I'll have plenty of anti-infantry elsewhere - 24 Str8 shots from 2x Forgefiend and 2x Heldrake will give me a reasonable whack of anti-tank. (Throw in a Landraider / Defiler and it's pretty well set)

Where are you getting 24 S8 shots from 2 Forgefiends.

they can each take 2 hades cannons (8 shots each so 16 total)
Or the can take 3 ectoplasma cannons- which means 3 x blast per model.

i dont think there is an option to take a third hades cannon.

6x Hades Autocannon (2x2 On Forgefiends, 2 on Heldrakes) is 24 shots.

At the end of the day, I'm hoping that Fabius / a Lord, 1-2 units of Terminators, 2-4 units of CSM 2 units of cultists, a pair of Heldrakes, a pair of Forgefiends and a CSM Landraider (or Defiler) will make a nicely rounded Take All Comers style force.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
doh

Seconded.

 Exergy wrote:


the helldrake is a new beast as its flamer ignores cover. If it can see you it can kill you.
Granted it is probably too expensive and you can unclump your models as best you can but cover will not save you.

Its flamer ignores cover? unlike the other flamers out there ?

Jokes asides- its not so much that its anti-infantry

It's anti-meq in a big way, and the more you unclump the easier it is for my plasma to catch you out of cover

Sit in cover to dodge plasma rounds, or expose models to avoid a potential S6 AP3 flamer practically wherever you want it?
That has big value vs MEQ's.

The Flamer has one good purpose I learned the hard way... if you aren't on multi-levels, you're Marines are toast.

Losing almost a full squad of Long Fangs a turn to two of those things isn't fun. The derp gun feels like a waste when you can deliver, the turn it comes on, Marine BBQ action. Oh, and Guardsmen camped behind an Aegis? Burnt to a crisp, too. Just nuke the command squad and then come back around for the rest later.

Seriously, if those flamers take off, good luck seeing foot lists.

One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

No but many other armies will soon find how much cover is trying to scraped for and how template weapons can destroy now along with ordnance barrage.

Squad of 9 Flamers is enough to make someone poo a little.

AP3 flamers have always roasted everything in their path. The only difference is the Helldrake has pinpoint accuracy and all but garunteed alpha strike.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The only difference is the Helldrake has pinpoint accuracy and all but garunteed alpha strike.

Guaranteed turn two through four alpha strike? Is that really an alpha strike? I mean come on, a unit of tzeentch flamers can drop down and flame you turn one before you even have time to tie your shoe laces.

By Alpha Strike I mean something thats unavoidable and hard hitting. Not that it hits you on turn 1. Maybe a poor choice of words.

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

Yes, yes it will. Helldrakes are game breaking and will redefine the meta.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

Yes, yes it will. Helldrakes are game breaking and will redefine the meta.

O'right, I totally forgot about that. What was I thinking

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It doesn't have to hit the same target each turn, and it can vary its speed between 18 and 36"

The earliest a Flyer should be forced off the table is its third turn, and with careful movement it shouldn't even happen at all.

Maybe so, I think people like to forget that their opponent can use LoS, cover and movement to mitigate this a lot though so we'll see.

Only if you've reduced their army considerably. Especially in the case of the Baleflamer, there should always be a target somewhere. And it can switch to hover mode.

Funnily enough, it could combo with the Masque well enough.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
One flyer in one codex isn't going to invalidate foot lists.

Yes, yes it will. Helldrakes are game breaking and will redefine the meta.

I really hope you are being sarcastic. I truly hope so because a flamer template doesn't hit very many models if your opponent is smart and it will not invalidate foot lists at all if played correctly.

Ok, sold. Baleflamer it is.

Why is there a discussion between 2 str 8 hits on average and a str 6 ap 3 torrent?

You can come in and start terrorizing stuff, I personally am afraid of the Helldrake with a baleflamer.