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GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 02:49:38


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


So this month chaos players got this


And this



And these guys



But if you want to play 1000 Sons, or Noise Marines you have to buy some 10 year old conversion packs.



And if you want to play Plague Marines well they have some fugly finecast guys for you



And if you want to play bezerkers... well there's some 12 year models for you, available at today's prices.



Even the 10 year old Chaos Marines who are just loyalists with spikes and arrows green stuffed onto them didn't get any thing (though to be fair they got a nice upgrade sprue in 2008)



Cultists, a newly-returned troop type are only available in the starter set where they have some very nice, but one-pose models.

And this is true for other armies as well. The Vampire Counts recently got this in plastic



While the circa 1998 zombies got nothing but a price hike.

So here's my question, is GW making a mistake by focusing on producing new 'toys' which most people will only buy one or two of for their army rather than updating and upgrading core troop choices?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 03:18:10


Post by: Buzzsaw


It may be that this is a reflection of GW's corporate strategy of appealing to impulsive, younger players that will buy en mass without necessarily becoming a long term player. To such a buyer, a multitude of flashy kits is probably better for impulse buys then cheap, utilitarian core troops. The impulse buyer wants something flashy, something big, above all, something cool. These big kits fulfill that criteria to a T (seriously, that Vampire Counts model screams "Buy me, I'm awesome!").

Now, at the same time, these new models for new units can also be reflective of a strategy of appealing to people that are established, with large collections. Such people will necessarily not be interested in new core troops because they have completed armies. With little interest in balance, new powerful units can simply be introduced in new Codex and Army Books, units with conveniently available models for established players to add to their collections...

So, this would all seem beneficial, but for one thing: this system leaves the new player, that wants to buy with purpose and establish a competitive and well rounded army, with a number of new kits (of which they only will really want a few), and a multitude of old and weary kits (of which they will want a number).


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 03:34:47


Post by: nkelsch


If it ain't broke, why remake it? All those core units are still relevant and valid models. New people really have no care how old the kit is, and people who already play chaos are going to impulse buy the new units. GW wins both ways.

When you boil it down, even when they remade AOBR the ork boyz may have had different poses, but were my no means New models in look at all. Just because vets are tired of looking at models doesn't make them tired or do they need to be arbitrarily remade.

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 03:35:54


Post by: curran12


nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 03:37:23


Post by: ShumaGorath


 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 03:41:17


Post by: Samus_aran115


This has been the general trend since Blood Angels. Tyranids got a lot of good things, without these "toys" (except possibly the trygon, which I would argue is a great monstrous burrowing monstrous creature, not a toy)

It sucks. Nice comparison KK. GW really had a big opportunity to win back some gamers, but they just stacked gak higher than they thought was possible instead.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 03:44:22


Post by: nkelsch


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.
thought we were talking about bread and brother core troops? Not special characters? So now anything but a 100% total result of every model in the line is acceptable.

I don't see a problem with how the fine cast plague marines look. If anything, they are one of the units which fine cast flaws have less impact as it fits in with the look of the model. This all sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does re-releasing resculpts of models vets already have going to "win back gamers" when they don't actually care about winning back gamers and those gamers won't actually re-buy units they already have and would just bitch about not needing a whole new army of models they already have.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 03:53:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 04:01:02


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 04:07:04


Post by: ShumaGorath


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off


It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nkelsch wrote:
 ShumaGorath wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.
thought we were talking about bread and brother core troops? Not special characters? So now anything but a 100% total result of every model in the line is acceptable.

I don't see a problem with how the fine cast plague marines look. If anything, they are one of the units which fine cast flaws have less impact as it fits in with the look of the model. This all sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does re-releasing resculpts of models vets already have going to "win back gamers" when they don't actually care about winning back gamers and those gamers won't actually re-buy units they already have and would just bitch about not needing a whole new army of models they already have.


It doesn't have to be a total resculpt, but when the core units in an army look awful and the army itself looks clearly dated except for brand new and very different looking outliers it makes them look lazy.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 04:08:52


Post by: Alfndrate


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off


It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.


Idk about that, my first test drive with the new codex went off with a bang.. Or maybe it was the rail guns eating me up...


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 04:25:50


Post by: ShumaGorath


 Alfndrate wrote:
 ShumaGorath wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off


It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.


Idk about that, my first test drive with the new codex went off with a bang.. Or maybe it was the rail guns eating me up...


Just run swarms of chaos marines. They cost as much as scouts now. Sisters of battle will be depressed about that one, theres a new king of cheap power armor swarms. Havocs are in long fang territory for being cheap too.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 04:49:50


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Alfndrate wrote:
 ShumaGorath wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off


It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.


Idk about that, my first test drive with the new codex went off with a bang.. Or maybe it was the rail guns eating me up...

I know, In my game today. One guy at the end of tunr five got into a deamonhood boon, while another a spawn.
The Choas Codex came out with a boom i thnl


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 04:53:29


Post by: nels1031


So here's my question, is GW making a mistake by focusing on producing new 'toys' which most people will only buy one or two of for their army rather than updating and upgrading core troop choices?


It depends on the Army.

GW only seems to replace Core troops when they redo an entire Range, Ie Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Beastmen, Skaven come to mind. May be some others I'm missing, but those Armies got a good spread of new/redone Core Troops in addition to big "flashy toys", as well as some smaller accessories like Skaven weapon teams for example.

Those are all clear examples that buck the trend that GW is only producing big centerpiece models while ignoring core troops.

But yes, looking at the whole, I do agree that priorities are out of whack, it is silly that the worst looking models in some ranges (High Elf /Dark Elf in my WHFB centric gaming ) happen to be staple core choices.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 04:54:04


Post by: Dais


You know, I kind of feel they are doing one of their rare smart moves focusing on making a broader range rather than resculpting older models that, while showing their age a bit, are still presentable. Chaos had so many choices over the decades theere is no way they could update everything to make it new again. Let's face it, the current model range as a whole is too large for GW to keep everything fresh. They can't even keep every army fresh with their silly outdated codex format.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 05:05:51


Post by: hotsauceman1


Also Look at Crons, Immortals(a core troop choice) got redone.
And they got plenty of flashy Toys, Aswell as 3 other models getting redone.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 05:14:34


Post by: Da Butcha


I agree that they ignored "bread and butter" units for flashy toys, but I would have used an entirely different set of "bread and butter" units:

The Dreadclaw and Hell Talon have been Forgeworld for ages, and are well established in the backstory of Chaos. These vehicles seem to be essential elements of how Chaos wages war in the galaxy. Nope. GW releases some daemonic flyer (cool, but not in any way iconic).

Chaos Dreadnought only available in one pose, in one starter box, with one set of options. GW releases Forgefiend/Maulerfiend (again, cool, but not iconic).

Chaos Rhino, Predator, and Land Raider still just Imperial ones with a glued on sprue, rather than retooled for Chaos. Come on!

I'm happy that the raptors are finally in plastic, but seriously, what's with the Havocs? Unholy crap, just release them in plastic. Cult troops in plastic would have been nice (or just plastic conversion sprues), but Havocs are a mainstay of a TON of CSM armies, not just those hewing to one power or another.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 05:18:02


Post by: Xeriapt


I guess we will have to wait to see what else they realease for the range.

The new chosen models look awesome, but it would have been nice if the basic marines you get looked more like those than just spiky loyalists.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 05:35:47


Post by: Zygrot24


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 05:37:17


Post by: ShumaGorath


 Xeriapt wrote:
I guess we will have to wait to see what else they realease for the range.

The new chosen models look awesome, but it would have been nice if the basic marines you get looked more like those than just spiky loyalists.


Bad looking spikey loyalists...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Zygrot24 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.


Wherever the goal post is, I think they missed it by a lot this time 'round. There's very little new in the range that will be purchased en masse or is even particularly viable (lookin' at you claw guys). The things people are going to want lots of; cultists, base marines, thousand suns, havocs aren't being redone or only come in one big box. Nor are any of the characters that are going to see a ton of use.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 05:50:27


Post by: Zygrot24


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 Zygrot24 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.


Wherever the goal post is, I think they missed it by a lot this time 'round. There's very little new in the range that will be purchased en masse or is even particularly viable (lookin' at you claw guys). The things people are going to want lots of; cultists, base marines, thousand suns, havocs aren't being redone or only come in one big box. Nor are any of the characters that are going to see a ton of use.


Ya, I see what you're saying. It doesn't affect me very much because I'm not buying chaos, but I can see the disappointment. And that disappointment is different from the last release. And it'll be different for the next one as well.

But maybe we're being hasty? Isn't there another wave of models coming?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 06:00:58


Post by: Oakenshield


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 Xeriapt wrote:
I guess we will have to wait to see what else they realease for the range.

The new chosen models look awesome, but it would have been nice if the basic marines you get looked more like those than just spiky loyalists.


Bad looking spikey loyalists...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Zygrot24 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.


Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.


Wherever the goal post is, I think they missed it by a lot this time 'round. There's very little new in the range that will be purchased en masse or is even particularly viable (lookin' at you claw guys). The things people are going to want lots of; cultists, base marines, thousand suns, havocs aren't being redone or only come in one big box. Nor are any of the characters that are going to see a ton of use.


I think that is the heart of the issue, people will still be buying them regardless of how dated they look, and unless they feel significant pressure from a third party (that can't be litigated into submission) they have no real motivation to spend the money on updating these. People will just grumble while handing them money hand over fist.

nkelsch wrote:


And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff!


New sculpts do nothing to invalidate old models and dictate they need to be replaced, so that's


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 06:54:42


Post by: tuiman


You would think with all the duel box sets released for necrons, gk, dark eldar, especially the immortal deathmark one, they could have done a similar thing with say, chaos marines and bezerkers, or chosen/cult troop of some kind. I will say this releases seems very short compared to necron and dark eldar.

As above, new abbadon or kharn model would have been awsome but sadly no


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 06:56:48


Post by: Kilkrazy


I'm not a Chaos player.

I think the Thousand Suns upgrades look fine. It would be nice if they could be redone in polystyrene, however if they are selling OK it makes commercial sense to produce new kits rather than put your resources into remaking old ones.

The dragon and the carnifex look awesome but not at all Chaotic. They look to me like something for a completely new, Steampunk faction. Which could be a good concept.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 07:33:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


It's kinda worrying when the thing I'm the most excited about in a Codex's release is a single-frame plastic Aspiring Champ...


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 08:31:44


Post by: SilverMK2


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's kinda worrying when the thing I'm the most excited about in a Codex's release is a single-frame plastic Aspiring Champ...


There isn't anything - not a single model that I am excited about in this new release. In fact, the new big kits and even the new infantry models are kind of a turn off for my love of CSM.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 08:40:07


Post by: conker249


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.

I bought one for my firend since he was feeling down, thats about the only one that sold at my local store since the finecast release, too expensive for 7 models, But I do like the one model with a ribcage as a shoulder pad. I do really like that the sonic blasters and blast masters being plastic now.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 08:40:42


Post by: arkapello


If they didn't add new things to the codex im pretty sure everyone would be quite offended.

If they didn't make and release the things they added in then other studios just make lookie-likes and GW looses sales (obviously not ideal).

So discounting the "they could do both argument" (cant be practical to constantly re do ENTIRE ranges - time is limited and other releases and projects are always ongoing) the releases we got are exatly the right ones for GW to bring out. there might also be more waves to come we don't know.

I would love to see old kits redone but i don't blame them for not making them for this release, just convert your units nice if you don't like old things how they are - perfectly possible. If they are going to re-do old kits they would actually be better off doing them a couple of years after a codex release, this way its like a little refresher of interest in the army (maybe in a fantasy release month) to keep fans happy and taking their time on something already available wont have risked sales. I don't expect them to do that, but either way im happy that if one day i wanted chaos i could find the spare parts and resin add ons to make them look good.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 08:50:43


Post by: SilverMK2


 arkapello wrote:
If they didn't add new things to the codex im pretty sure everyone would be quite offended.


Say what?

The only thing that Chaos could really have done with is the introduction of a flier (such as the awesome fighter that FW produce), maybe a drop pod and a couple of LR variants. I would have been more than happy with that. Hell, I'd have been OK with leaving the codex as it was model wise and just polishing up the rules to fit in with 6th, maybe with some upgrade packs for various cult troops.

If they didn't make and release the things they added in then other studios just make lookie-likes and GW looses sales (obviously not ideal).


So they add some new units to the codex with horrible, horrible models and you think that people will not jump on the chance to make something that doesn't look pants?

If they are going to re-do old kits they would actually be better off doing them a couple of years after a codex release, this way its like a little refresher of interest in the army (maybe in a fantasy release month) to keep fans happy and taking their time on something already available wont have risked sales.


This would only make sense if their marketing department actually... you know... marketed... How much interest can be generated when GW plop out a new model with a week's notice?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 09:00:42


Post by: -Loki-


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
And this is true for other armies as well. The Vampire Counts recently got this in plastic



While the circa 1998 zombies got nothing but a price hike.


Just to chime in here - while zombies didn't get a new kit, the other core choices for Vampire Counts, Skeletons, Ghouls and Dire Wolves got new plastic kits just last edition, while the rest of the range was incredibly, incredibly lacklustre. While you pointed out the new chariot, you neglected to mention what VC players got a unit they've absolutely been screaming for - plastic Black Knights. And what a fantastic kit it is as well.

The VC release was a great example of a well hyped and well delivered release. They got some things the range really needed (plastic Black Knights and a plastic Zombie Dragon), and also got some new kits that really fleshed out the range. While yes, I've heard (and made my own) grumblings about the lack of decent plastic zombies from, well, anyone, I really can't fault the VC 8th edition release. It was absolutely spot on.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 09:05:59


Post by: arkapello


The only thing that Chaos could really have done with is the introduction of a flier (such as the awesome fighter that FW produce), maybe a drop pod and a couple of LR variants. I would have been more than happy with that. Hell, I'd have been OK with leaving the codex as it was model wise and just polishing up the rules to fit in with 6th, maybe with some upgrade packs for various cult troops.


If you want LR variants and drop pods you may aswell play space marines and add a spiky shoulder pad, there are already far too many SM variants that offer very little difference between each other, every other 40k release has a land raider in the army list. Utterly boring. They may awell make armies different, wether or not you like the models the logic in doing "new stuff" is sound.

as said already in this thread your never going to please everyone. There would be a similar complaint thread if all they had done was add a new LR gun and a drop pod, of that i have no doubt.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 09:12:53


Post by: theQuanz


I personally wouldn't mind some new kits for berzerkers and plague marines.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 09:14:49


Post by: Grot 6


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So this month chaos players got this


And this



And these guys



But if you want to play 1000 Sons, or Noise Marines you have to buy some 10 year old conversion packs.



And if you want to play Plague Marines well they have some fugly finecast guys for you



And if you want to play bezerkers... well there's some 12 year models for you, available at today's prices.



Even the 10 year old Chaos Marines who are just loyalists with spikes and arrows green stuffed onto them didn't get any thing (though to be fair they got a nice upgrade sprue in 2008)



Cultists, a newly-returned troop type are only available in the starter set where they have some very nice, but one-pose models.

And this is true for other armies as well. The Vampire Counts recently got this in plastic



While the circa 1998 zombies got nothing but a price hike.

So here's my question, is GW making a mistake by focusing on producing new 'toys' which most people will only buy one or two of for their army rather than updating and upgrading core troop choices?



Insert obligatory "Look at me... I'm a Porche" piggy...


The spin now is that GW is a custom fugure "Collecting" company....

You don't NEED those silly basic troopers.... they arn't the models your looking for.....


As a side note- How in the world are you supposed to move that Vampire Counts diorama around the board without breaking it?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 09:17:03


Post by: Sidstyler


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's kinda worrying when the thing I'm the most excited about in a Codex's release is a single-frame plastic Aspiring Champ...


Yeah, pretty bad-ass model. I bought one...though I'm honestly disgusted by the fact that I paid $20 for it.

I also bought a dark apostle, even though it's Finecast, since I really liked the sculpt. You can probably guess how I'm feeling about that one right now...

And in case any of you can't, here's a hint: they're still having "teething issues". This guy comes on three frames so it was hard to judge when looking through the blister at the store, but so far, gambling with Finecast (still) isn't a gamble that pays off it would seem.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 09:26:30


Post by: SilverMK2


 arkapello wrote:
If you want LR variants and drop pods you may aswell play space marines and add a spiky shoulder pad, there are already far too many SM variants that offer very little difference between each other, every other 40k release has a land raider in the army list. Utterly boring. They may awell make armies different, wether or not you like the models the logic in doing "new stuff" is sound.


I said "maybe" adding those in would have been a better idea than the stuff they have added in. There would certainly be justification for adding in pods; in pretty much every piece of fluff you have mass invasions by the forces of chaos using drop pods. Same with chaos atmo/space fighters. There are far fewer examples of daemon engines, but it's a shame that they decided to make them look like cheap toys, not only that, but created them in such a way that they have very little in the way of customisation of assembly to actually make them look different to one another.

as said already in this thread your never going to please everyone. There would be a similar complaint thread if all they had done was add a new LR gun and a drop pod, of that i have no doubt.


Possibly, though given the comments regards the new codex, I think that more people would have been OK with it


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 10:53:48


Post by: kb305


i dont think the problem is that the models are old, its more that the models just suck.

the basic chaos marines look terrible with their giant stupid horns that're longer than their arms. ugh theyre bad.

i dont see anyone complaining about royalist tactical marines or assault marines. those kits are still great IMO.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 10:55:44


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Sidstyler wrote:
I also bought a dark apostle, even though it's Finecast, since I really liked the sculpt. You can probably guess how I'm feeling about that one right now...


And I got a Warpsmith. Hasn't arrived yet. I'm really dreading it.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 11:06:31


Post by: Sidstyler


I didn't get the warpsmith after I saw the price tag. I had to check GW's site just to make sure it was actually $30 and wasn't just a mistake...though I don't know why I had any doubt to begin with.

And to think I felt stupid for buying two figures for $40. Well, actually I still do.

I still don't get the heldrake. My mind is seriously boggled, I mean imagine if they did that for Imperial Guard...you hear rumors about GW bringing out a plastic "flyer" for the first time, everyone immediately thinks "Holy gak they're gonna do a plastic valkyrie, they have to!"...everyone has their wallets out ready to buy half a dozen the second they go up for advance order (because there's a good chance it could jump in price before it gets released), and what do you get instead? Something completely new and different, something that doesn't even fit with the established look and feel of Imperial Guard, something...that LOOKS LIKE THIS!



I find it appropriate that GW, when making the teaser video for the Chaos release, used the heldrake in a cheap jump scare at the end, because it's just...horrifyingly bad.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 11:07:35


Post by: Lovepug13


I spent my csm release day budget on a new coat for the other half.......book is meh, space zoid and that minging flyer won't be getting in my kr anytime soon. Book has been filed away under c for crap lol


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 11:13:31


Post by: Sidstyler


Don't even get me started on the book, lol. I can't really judge the content since I didn't read much of it, but for a $50 hardcover book it sure as hell feels like there's nothing in it. It's very thin, and even with full-color pictures and a hard cover I still feel like I should be paying half what they expect me to.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 11:21:55


Post by: Lovepug13


Agreed brother, it's off topic but I won't be using it this time round.......I might even take it back for some store credit......


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 13:44:20


Post by: jonolikespie


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

And I got a Warpsmith. Hasn't arrived yet. I'm really dreading it.


I picked one of them up and long story short I was converting it anyway so I didn't bother going through the process of opening 6 of them to mix and match the most usable of the frames.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 13:48:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Sidstyler wrote:
I didn't get the warpsmith after I saw the price tag. I had to check GW's site just to make sure it was actually $30 and wasn't just a mistake...though I don't know why I had any doubt to begin with.


You don't live where I live. $30 is $9 cheaper than here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sidstyler wrote:
Don't even get me started on the book, lol. I can't really judge the content since I didn't read much of it, but for a $50 hardcover book it sure as hell feels like there's nothing in it. It's very thin, and even with full-color pictures and a hard cover I still feel like I should be paying half what they expect me to.


The hard-cover is hopelessly overpriced, but I actually need it. It's a weird situation I'm in.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 14:27:48


Post by: conker249


I'm scanning mine currently so I can print and use a 3 ring binder and page protectors. So much easier during a game. Same reason the small book is better for rules. Soft cover and easier to flip through. Still bring the codex with me just use the expendable one to wear and tear.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 14:31:37


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Does the HC stay open on the page you turned to? I find SC tend to close unless you break the spine.

So there could be an advantage to HCs.

that said I doubt I'll buy anything but the next IG codex. I play so rarely there's no point. FFG's (insanely expensive!) books scratch my fluff and art itch just fine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK, there's 2 rumors out there at affect this discussion, can anyone confirm them?

1 - GW will no longer adapt Forgeworld models to plastic. This one seems true, and would in some ways make sense to protect FW's uniqueness (why buy the Chaos Drop Pod when you know it's coming in plastic). But ultimately harms the universe as a whole.

2 - All models now come out the same time as the codex. Like others said my gripe goes away if in a month or two we have gorgeous new plague marines, cultists, etc. But I'm sure all rumors pointed to a single wave as the new policy.

Anyone know?


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Poor Dust, those choppers are some line-killingly bad models. And after they hit it out of the park with their heavy walkers too.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 15:29:48


Post by: MeanGreenStompa


It's not neglecting the bread and butter than drives me mad, it's the change of aesthetic that means this release (which I had been considering my first foray into power armour) was a sad miss for me.

I think the chosen from the starter box, the warpsmith, the new jump troops, the aspiring champ are excellent. They have a wonderful melding of ancient Realm of Chaos vibe, eldritch chaos.

That doesn't fit with the new giant beasties.

That really really doesn't fit with the previous rank and file 'baroque' chaos.

So, for me, there's now 3 different aesthetics going on with the chaos army now, it's like some of it was designed in a vacuum. It's a total dealbreaker for me, much like why I won't buy any buggies or wartrack for my orks, it's like imagining if they'd only half done the Dark Eldar and you imagine an army of mixed 3rd gen dark eldar and modern ones... for me that's hideous and really really offends my obsessive compulsive need for things to match up and, at the price being asked for them, look good.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 15:45:50


Post by: Mr. Grey


 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


So, for me, there's now 3 different aesthetics going on with the chaos army now, it's like some of it was designed in a vacuum. It's a total dealbreaker for me, much like why I won't buy any buggies or wartrack for my orks, it's like imagining if they'd only half done the Dark Eldar and you imagine an army of mixed 3rd gen dark eldar and modern ones... for me that's hideous and really really offends my obsessive compulsive need for things to match up and, at the price being asked for them, look good.


The ork buggies and wartracks are ridiculously old sculpts, and I think it's been rumored that we'll get new sculpts for those next year.

I know exactly what you mean about the different aesthetics of the chaos marine line, though - it's like a bunch of sculptors and designers decided to piecemeal stuff at separate times instead of all working together to come up with one unified look.

One thing that really bothers me about the chaos range is that there are still no sculpts for Thousand Sons and Noise Marines. I'm not talking Chaos Marine troops box + upgrade sprue, I'm talking a single box of 10 models that are all Thousand Sons or Noise Marines. The same could be said of Death Guard - a $45 box of 5 models isn't a great substitute for what could have been a $40 box of 10 models.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 16:13:56


Post by: alexneufeld


Absolutely on the money here with this thread Kidkyoto.

I love new shiny toys as much as the next person (apart from the Helldrake) and quite often impulse buy them. BUT I would love to see some updates to the troops especially for Chaos, I get that Forgeworld has some conversion kits which help out for Khorne and Nurgle, but Tzeentch and Slannesh again get nothing new, together with the standard spiky arrow marines. It's often the shiny things that get us into an army, but then never finish as the other models are too rubbish to contemplate or simply too expensive to convert cool looking ones.

They should have done a better job just like Dark Eldar, where the old and new lines just don't match. Necrons wasn't too bad, as they are easy to match, but I still hate the glowing plastic green rods a doom on the old warriors, but then again it makes you buy a whole ghost ark to convert good ploy GW.

Hopefully they don't do them same for Eldar and Tau which are rumoured for 2013, just imagine those lovely old guardian models with a price rise.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 16:14:47


Post by: theQuanz


Question about the book, which is going to judge whether or not I get back into 40k or not.

Compared to 3edV2, and 5ed...how are the CSM? Are they still the neutered piles of crap that they made them? or have they brought back awesome variety and options?
Or just 2 big stupid things that are meant to suck money from mom and dads pocket?

Thanks


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 16:21:15


Post by: Valkyrie


I'm going with the already-said notion of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". I have *no problem* with those standard Chaos Marines. They look good, and have plenty of modelling opportunities. The Plague Marines too, they look well done considering they're older. (To be fair, if GW did release a Plague Marine update set it could be well competing price-wise against the set done by FW which is better; why release something if it's already being done by FW). I agree that there does seem to be a hint of laziness with this wave, but there's nothing wrong with that set. If we *had* got new CSM, people would be complaing that they have to update their entire troop selection, and why couldn't they use the older models. Just look on the plus side: we get new Raptors, the Thousand Sons still look good despite them being 10 year old packs, and while it would have been good to see some character resculpts, you can easily make your own from the already extensive modelling opportunities given to us by the CSM and CT sets.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 19:41:42


Post by: hungryp


I'm with MGS on this one, the change in an entire new line's aesthetic is the worst part of these situations, and to me Necrons are a perfect example of this. Warriors, Destroyers, and Monoliths all have the old glowy green rods, but everything else gets a new look for gauss, so that you've got one weapon type with two completely different looks. I'd certainly be in no big hurry to upgrade all my old stuff, but it'd be nice to at least have the option to have a cohesive looking army. The rods in the new gauss aren't even the same length as the green rods so swapping bits in isn't a very time-effective option.

And no crying that Necrons got a whole new line...95% of the models they put out for this codex didn't even exist before.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 19:55:38


Post by: timd


It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.


I have no interest in the dinobots* or the dragon, but I'm pretty sure we are not done with the CSM release yet. At the very least we should have Helbrute and Chaos cultist multi-part kits still coming and possibly Chosen as well. They can't rely on people buying starter sets to get these models, which are pretty integral to the Chaos Codex.

They brought out the shiny big guns for the initial release in hopes that people would get very excited about them and buy lots. There was a rumor about a second CSM release on October 20th and we have seen pretty solid rumors of the contents of a cultists multi-part box, so I have little doubt that there is another CSM release coming soon

* I'm thinking that a Tyranid Tervigon might be a better starting point for a Nurgle Forgefiend/Maulerfiend

Tim


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 19:59:50


Post by: nkelsch


timd wrote:

They can't rely on people buying starter sets to get these models, which are pretty integral to the Chaos Codex.
Ork Deffkoptaz might be willing to disagree with you.

I fully expect them to take piles of old metals from old lines like necromunda/Gorkamorka/fantasy and release them as a metal-to-finecast box of cultists. They love to pimp out their old models as 'collectors'


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 20:07:20


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


timd wrote:

I have no interest in the dinobots* or the dragon, but I'm pretty sure we are not done with the CSM release yet. At the very least we should have Helbrute and Chaos cultist multi-part kits still coming and possibly Chosen as well. They can't rely on people buying starter sets to get these models, which are pretty integral to the Chaos Codex.

They brought out the shiny big guns for the initial release in hopes that people would get very excited about them and buy lots. There was a rumor about a second CSM release on October 20th and we have seen pretty solid rumors of the contents of a cultists multi-part box, so I have little doubt that there is another CSM release coming soon

* I'm thinking that a Tyranid Tervigon might be a better starting point for a Nurgle Forgefiend/Maulerfiend

Tim


That would be good news, the starter cultists are ace and I'd love to get them on their own.

But then again GW never did Ork deff copters except for the last starter set so it's possible they feel they've covered that base.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 20:20:01


Post by: timd


nkelsch wrote:
timd wrote:

They can't rely on people buying starter sets to get these models, which are pretty integral to the Chaos Codex.


Ork Deffkoptaz might be willing to disagree with you.


Yeah, but wasn't there a metal Deffkopta model that was also available, so that the box set was not the ONLY source of Deffkoptas?


I fully expect them to take piles of old metals from old lines like necromunda/Gorkamorka/fantasy and release them as a metal-to-finecast box of cultists. They love to pimp out their old models as 'collectors'


Ugh, what a horrible idea, and I don't think its terribly realistic either. Far better to take the starter set cultist 3D sculpts (already done) and modify them a bit to make a multi-part kit. This makes Chaos and Necromunda players happy and gives everyone some potential civilians to play with.

Tim


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 20:27:56


Post by: Kanluwen


I think it's more likely that what we're going to see with the Cultists is what they did with the Lothern Sea Guard from "Island of Blood".

I could see them releasing two "sets", one with each of the gun toting Cultist variants and the other with each of the CCW Cultist variants.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 21:30:21


Post by: Adam LongWalker


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.


"Puts on the corporate warrior capitalist cap on and proceeds to rant in a satirical manner".

(First line of thought) - Perhaps they do not have the revenue that everyone thinks that they have to put out more models as before.
(Second line of thought) - Lazy? Naaa. The corporation only puts Approx 1% ( think is 1.4% actually) of revenue made into R&D for their product line. As long as the sheeple keep on buying product, why should GW change policy on their marketing, quality of product and quality of service?


"Takes off hat and ends of rant with a smile".




GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 21:44:17


Post by: timd


 Kanluwen wrote:
I think it's more likely that what we're going to see with the Cultists is what they did with the Lothern Sea Guard from "Island of Blood".

I could see them releasing two "sets", one with each of the gun toting Cultist variants and the other with each of the CCW Cultist variants.


This is the rumor from Faeit. Pretty solid/specific rumor...

Quote Originally Posted by natfka
via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)

Oh, and cultists are getting a plastic box of 10 that comes with 10 sets of auto pistol / ccw arms, 10 autoguns, 2 shotguns, 1 heavy stubber, 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 icon (with several top options), 1 power axe, 1 power maul and a bunch of bits to put here and there (such as frag grenades and trophies). Only thing I didn't see was a power sword.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 21:51:21


Post by: Lovepug13


theQuanz wrote:
Question about the book, which is going to judge whether or not I get back into 40k or not.

Compared to 3edV2, and 5ed...how are the CSM? Are they still the neutered piles of crap that they made them? or have they brought back awesome variety and options?
Or just 2 big stupid things that are meant to suck money from mom and dads pocket?

Thanks


Dont waste your money on the book.......its terrible. If you go fishing in my bin you could find my copy and have a look yourself.

I soldiered on with that crappy previous codex and as a massive kick in the babymaker I get this new book as my reward, forget the gods of chaos - the corpse emperor is full of win.

I still have my elysians and orks to use in the meantime, I just prey by the time the orks get done again they put out a good book

Do yourself a favour and find the free download before you go buying the book...you may like it - but I dont lol



GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 21:56:12


Post by: AlexHolker


Definitely agree with the OP. And it's not just a line-by-line problem: I'm still annoyed that GW wasted a double-size sprue on limited edition skull-shaped rocks but still can't be arsed to give the Sisters of Battle one measly plastic HQ/Elites/Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support kit.

Good, affordable rank-and-file models are a foundation to build on. Neglecting that in favour of stuff nobody ever asked for sucks.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 22:03:43


Post by: Flashman


My views...

1. Would like to see more older troop choices redesigned, but GW has the right approach in that they have focused on doing plastic kits for old metal/finecast kits.

Their best releases this year (Black Knights and Chaos Raptors) are redesigns of old metal kits IMHO.

2. New stuff is logical from a business perspective, but their concepts/designs for new stuff this year has been very hit and miss. Their misses have largely been the obligatory big kits which are starting to look badly thought out and "rushed". Key culprits are the Coven Throne/Mortis Engine, Hurricanum/Luminark and Helldrake.

3. Fantasy and 40K were originally designed as infantry games. I'm not sure all this big stuff is doing the game mechanics any favours to be honest. As Rick Priestly pointed shortly after he left, a 6" long vehicle in a game revolving around 12" ranges kind of skews game play somewhat.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 22:22:52


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 AlexHolker wrote:
Definitely agree with the OP. And it's not just a line-by-line problem: I'm still annoyed that GW wasted a double-size sprue on limited edition skull-shaped rocks but still can't be arsed to give the Sisters of Battle one measly plastic HQ/Elites/Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support kit.

Good, affordable rank-and-file models are a foundation to build on. Neglecting that in favour of stuff nobody ever asked for sucks.


Now hold on one minute!

Yes I said GW should put more into bread and butter troops but that's hardly the same thing as bad mouthing the universally beloved skull-shaped rocks!

Why they're rocks, shaped like skulls! The question is now why did GW make this, the question is why didn't GW make this SOONER?

Seriously if I lived near a GW store (ie on the same continent as one) I'd go in, hold up the latest dinobot/flying vampire chair thing/skull shaped rock and ask "This was a higher priority than battle sisters?"

I doubt it would help but it would be fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
timd wrote:


Quote Originally Posted by natfka
via Faeit 212 (a Must Remain Anonymous Source)

Oh, and cultists are getting a plastic box of 10 that comes with 10 sets of auto pistol / ccw arms, 10 autoguns, 2 shotguns, 1 heavy stubber, 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 icon (with several top options), 1 power axe, 1 power maul and a bunch of bits to put here and there (such as frag grenades and trophies). Only thing I didn't see was a power sword.





Don't say such things... I'm trying hard to sit this release out.

Nah seriously if true this will make me pretty happy.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 22:24:42


Post by: -Loki-


 Flashman wrote:
Their misses have largely been the obligatory big kits which are starting to look badly thought out and "rushed". Key culprits are the Coven Throne/Mortis Engine


The thing with the Coven Throne/Mortis Engine is either one would have been absolutely fantastic as a single kit. But there's not enough to differentiate them once you see it as a dual kit. Personally, I love the Coven Throne, and I wouldn't even consider a Mortis Engine, so to me it is a single kit. There's just a lot of leftover bits (and 3 perfectly good Banshees that just need bases which ironically fit really well in a Lahmian army).


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 22:31:44


Post by: Flashman


 -Loki- wrote:
 Flashman wrote:
Their misses have largely been the obligatory big kits which are starting to look badly thought out and "rushed". Key culprits are the Coven Throne/Mortis Engine


The thing with the Coven Throne/Mortis Engine is either one would have been absolutely fantastic as a single kit. But there's not enough to differentiate them once you see it as a dual kit. Personally, I love the Coven Throne, and I wouldn't even consider a Mortis Engine, so to me it is a single kit. There's just a lot of leftover bits (and 3 perfectly good Banshees that just need bases which ironically fit really well in a Lahmian army).


To be fair, the top sections of both the Coven Throne and Mortis Engine aren't that bad, it's the "spectral" (or bits from other VC sprues lumped together with green stuff) bottom section which was badly executed.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 22:52:28


Post by: Nicorex


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The hard-cover is hopelessly overpriced, but I actually need it. It's a weird situation I'm in.


Cant you write it off as a business expense?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 22:56:59


Post by: Sidstyler


 Valkyrie wrote:
If we *had* got new CSM, people would be complaing that they have to update their entire troop selection, and why couldn't they use the older models.


Their complaints would be invalid, then. You don't have to update your entire troop selection, and you can use the old models just fine, unless the new CSM got a huge size increase or got put on bigger bases, which is unlikely.

Are there any people out there crying because now they have to update their old raptors? Well...nevermind, bad example, because no one ever used them before. What about when the entire Dark Eldar line got revamped, because I personally never saw a single person complain about "having" to replace their army. It's possible that there were though, and the complaints just got drowned out by all the people (like me) who rushed out and bought 2,000+ points of them (which was a mistake because now they're unplayable, but regardless). The new plastic DE warriors are some of the best rank-and-file troops GW have ever put out, and combined with the fact that they actually had a pretty damn reasonable price point when released makes them possibly my favorite GW kit of all time. The only downside to them is only having one of each special/heavy weapon but this is true of every kit.

So I personally don't buy that crap that everyone would whine if GW did that...from what I've seen it's the exact opposite, a lot of us are practically begging for GW to redo some of these old, necessary kits and are only whining because they keep ignoring us.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 23:09:50


Post by: loki old fart


Any one else think that a certain court case is affecting new releases. Like dreadnoughts becoming helbrutes, GW not owning that name, and everything in one wave ?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 23:11:06


Post by: Lovepug13


I have heard something similar from a reliable source to that effect as well my friend


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 23:11:32


Post by: Rainbow Dash


Gw seems only to care about selling models and not the game itself, i feel no desire to waste money on a game i find utterly ununplayable
i loathe 40k and fantasy doesnt fare much better.
its fine if they want to make nice things but neglecting the game and other models ive wanted to see redone since i started this but no dice. After 12 years getting the short stick ive given up on gw, completely


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 23:12:34


Post by: Adam LongWalker


 loki old fart wrote:
Any one else think that a certain court case is affecting new releases. Like dreadnoughts becoming helbrutes, GW not owning that name, and everything in one wave ?


Yup I believe that it has had an effect in this case.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 23:15:05


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


I've not been following the ins and outs of a certain court case, can anyone summarize?

I did hear the reason for new, even stupider, paint names is due to the fact the previous supplier owns the names.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/07 23:21:14


Post by: loki old fart


Its as if everything was rushed, ill thought out. Best we could do in the time available, so to speak.
even the names hellbrute, helldrake, hellforged etc. anything not ready don't bother releasing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I've not been following the ins and outs of a certain court case, can anyone summarize?

I did hear the reason for new, even stupider, paint names is due to the fact the previous supplier owns the names.


Yup true

You could buy ultramarine blue anywhere.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 01:53:44


Post by: ShumaGorath


Its as if everything was rushed, ill thought out. Best we could do in the time available, so to speak.
even the names hellbrute, helldrake, hellforged etc. anything not ready don't bother releasing it.


It's better than "Venom thrope" or "Pyrovore".


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 02:06:12


Post by: Avatar 720


 ShumaGorath wrote:
Its as if everything was rushed, ill thought out. Best we could do in the time available, so to speak.
even the names hellbrute, helldrake, hellforged etc. anything not ready don't bother releasing it.


It's better than "Venom thrope" or "Pyrovore".


At least it wasn't Poisonthrope and Firevore. Hell- is just extremely basic and is no doubt fast becoming the new Wolf-.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 02:46:39


Post by: Quintinus


 Flashman wrote:


3. Fantasy and 40K were originally designed as infantry games. I'm not sure all this big stuff is doing the game mechanics any favours to be honest. As Rick Priestly pointed shortly after he left, a 6" long vehicle in a game revolving around 12" ranges kind of skews game play somewhat.


I'd be interested in reading the interview where he said that! If you could shoot me a PM or even post it here I'd appreciate it.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 02:46:57


Post by: Skits


My major beef with the 'new' model releases, as a TSons player, is the whole TSons "upgrade" pack. Especially at Australian prices. I want another two squads for my army, and I've been waiting a year and a half to see if they'd redo the Thousand Sons models, or at least make them not the horrible metal/plastic combo. Hell, I'd have been happy enough with a finecast/plastic combo box. But no, they had to just release the metal bits as a finecast "upgrade" pack, meaning I still have to buy a full ten-man squad of marines to start with, which I'll only use the legs, backpacks and half the torso of.

Which means, if I want another nine-man Sons squad, at GW Aus prices I'd have to pay almost $100 for it.

Feth that.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 02:51:10


Post by: ShumaGorath


 Skits wrote:
My major beef with the 'new' model releases, as a TSons player, is the whole TSons "upgrade" pack. Especially at Australian prices. I want another two squads for my army, and I've been waiting a year and a half to see if they'd redo the Thousand Sons models, or at least make them not the horrible metal/plastic combo. Hell, I'd have been happy enough with a finecast/plastic combo box. But no, they had to just release the metal bits as a finecast "upgrade" pack, meaning I still have to buy a full ten-man squad of marines to start with, which I'll only use the legs, backpacks and half the torso of.

Which means, if I want another nine-man Sons squad, at GW Aus prices I'd have to pay almost $100 for it.

Feth that.


TK sons are a pretty popular third party item, there are a lot of smaller miniatures sellers that will sell you significantly better models in tksons styling.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 03:07:54


Post by: Rainbow Dash


these avatars of war slayers are awesome, if i have to buy all the troops new, itll be them all the way


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 03:10:39


Post by: theQuanz


I looked at the new Codex today...it seems as bland as the last edition...I am going to borrow a copy and give it a proper read though and make my decision then.

I do hope they come out with a new hellbrute model though that is multi-part and poseable...and not only available in the starter box.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 03:26:10


Post by: -Loki-


 ShumaGorath wrote:
Its as if everything was rushed, ill thought out. Best we could do in the time available, so to speak.
even the names hellbrute, helldrake, hellforged etc. anything not ready don't bother releasing it.


It's better than "Venom thrope" or "Pyrovore".


Tyrannofex. Tervigon.

I really hope that if Kelly gets to do the next Tyranid book, he simply renames those to Malefactor and Exocrine. There was absolutely no reason to make names up for them, the Tyranids already had some biotanks with similar roles in their fluff. They still have a few more as well.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 03:37:17


Post by: H.B.M.C.


What's wrong with 'Tervigon' exactly?

The rest (Pyrovore, Venomthrope, Tyrannofex) are all terrible, but is there a problem with Tervigon?

timd wrote:
Oh, and cultists are getting a plastic box of 10 that comes with 10 sets of auto pistol / ccw arms, 10 autoguns, 2 shotguns, 1 heavy stubber, 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 icon (with several top options), 1 power axe, 1 power maul and a bunch of bits to put here and there (such as frag grenades and trophies). Only thing I didn't see was a power sword.


Given that Cultists can’t get any sort of power weapon, Grenade Launchers or Icons, I think it’s safe to say that this is probably bunk.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 03:59:25


Post by: Dr. Delorean


Why remake models that many players already have (and therefore are unlikely to purchase more of, regardless of resculpts), when they can make -new- stuff and sell that instead? Don't get me wrong, I want you all to have plastic thousand sons as soon as possible, but I can understand why, when there's an obvious limit to the number of plastic kits released, they'd prioritise the new stuff. What I don't understand is -why- there's a limit on the number of plastic kits dedicated to a single release.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 04:05:08


Post by: ShumaGorath


Why remake models that many players already have (and therefore are unlikely to purchase more of, regardless of resculpts), when they can make -new- stuff and sell that instead?


Because a significant portion of GWs purchase base is new players or veteran players making new armies. People updating their already purchased army when a new codex comes out makes up a small percentage of store sales. People aren't as likely to buy into a new army when the core of it looks bad.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 04:16:26


Post by: Harriticus


Honestly, I don't think any of the CSM troops look dated anymore. Finecast quality is another issue though.

The Warsmith, Emperor's Children Lord, Night Lords Hero are probably the only "dated" models in appearance I think.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 04:20:16


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Why remake models that many players already have (and therefore are unlikely to purchase more of, regardless of resculpts), when they can make -new- stuff and sell that instead? Don't get me wrong, I want you all to have plastic thousand sons as soon as possible, but I can understand why, when there's an obvious limit to the number of plastic kits released, they'd prioritise the new stuff. What I don't understand is -why- there's a limit on the number of plastic kits dedicated to a single release.


I guess it comes back to how many Rhinos did they sell when they remade it? Or how many Cadians when they came out in plastic?

New basic units can bring in more new players and convince older players to upgrade their existing armies.

I have 7x7 units of plague marines, I'd lay even odds GW could get me to replace them if new plastics came out.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 04:48:45


Post by: -Loki-


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I guess it comes back to how many Rhinos did they sell when they remade it? Or how many Cadians when they came out in plastic?


Those are both completely different situations. For the Rhino, vehicles weren't super popular until 5th edition. So while they were re-releasing a model a lot of people had (even by its 3rd edition rerelease), there was still a nice market there for people who didn't have one. With the Cadians, that was changing a whole line of metal models to plastic, because the codex needed a mostly plastic 'average' army range, which the Catachans didn't fill.

Chaos Marines last had a mold cut in 4th edition, and while Berzerkers are older, dating back to 3rd edition, neither is a kit Chaos players will not have bought in the past, simply because they were the 2 plastic troops choices, either for conversions or simply to use as-is.

There really isn't a huge market for re-released Chaos Marines or Berzerkers, simply because, as the only two plastic troops choices available, people have enough of them already.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 05:40:32


Post by: ShumaGorath


Current chaos players are not GWs market. Period. They already made their purchases, what more they buy is nearly irrelevant. An already sunk player shelling out 150 dollars for some new vehicles is peanuts compared to a new player purchasing $700+ of new items. One happens more often than the other to the point of GW marketing and sales systems being built towards moving product to new users who may never play a game in their life.

Bad looking line troops (CSMs) or boxes that stores won't stock (finecast plagues or any conversion kits) don't help with that.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 07:11:42


Post by: Flashman


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Flashman wrote:


3. Fantasy and 40K were originally designed as infantry games. I'm not sure all this big stuff is doing the game mechanics any favours to be honest. As Rick Priestly pointed shortly after he left, a 6" long vehicle in a game revolving around 12" ranges kind of skews game play somewhat.


I'd be interested in reading the interview where he said that! If you could shoot me a PM or even post it here I'd appreciate it.


Hmm, I think it was posted by Reds8n about a year ago. I will have a dig around later this evening.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 08:14:44


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


There's plenty of room in the line up for re-sculpts and changes to core troops. I do like a nice flashy toy now and then but updating the older infantry kits especially would be nice.

Especially Sisters.....

Full range cult upgrade sprues to the tune of the DA upgrade sprue would seem to be a great idea as well.

A couple of people have asserted that this is all just part of the GW marketing strategy to appeal to Lil' Timmy and he love of shiny new things, I can't help but agree and concur that CSM's release is incredibly lackluster, especially when compared to DE and 'Crons recent releases.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 08:44:32


Post by: Ouze


 SilverMK2 wrote:
There isn't anything - not a single model that I am excited about in this new release. In fact, the new big kits and even the new infantry models are kind of a turn off for my love of CSM.


How can you say that when the new Raptors look so awesome?

I'm really not a Chaos player - at this point I'm not sure I'm even a 40k player anymore; having not yet even bought the 6th rulebook yet - but those new raptors look totally sweet.

The Dragon is iffy, and the new obliterators are lolwut though.

So far as the main point goes, I still like the regular line troops, generally. The one complaint I do have about the new Raptors is they are a little busy, which I guess is the only common theme through all the releases. I kind of like how the plainer troops look when they're all ranked up.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 12:37:08


Post by: frozenwastes


I thought mechanical space dragons are the new bread and butter for chaos. I'm sure Horus rode one around back in the day.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 12:49:32


Post by: SilverMK2


 Ouze wrote:

How can you say that when the new Raptors look so awesome?


Well, they look like cheap tat for a start

The look kind of swollen and over detailed without any overall direction for that detailing.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 13:27:41


Post by: Ouze


Well, to paraphrase Stringer Bell, it seems I can't say anything to change y'all minds.

But I love the teefs on the vents; the spikes on the boots, and the throwback styling on the helmets and jump packs. The hooks on the edges of chainswords look awesome as well, in my opinion.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 13:55:25


Post by: kronk


Not including a plastic Chosen kit in the first wave was missed opportunity, in my opinion. I would have bought 3.

Also, with the change to the weapons that terminators can take in this codex, they need a new kit so that you can actually make a legal squad.

I would have liked to have seen a bunch of new should pads to represent the Marks. I want to show a mark of Nurgle, Slaneesh, Tzeentch, or Khorne. I suppose I could use the berzerker pads for Khorne, though.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/08 16:33:50


Post by: timd


 H.B.M.C. wrote:

timd wrote:
Oh, and cultists are getting a plastic box of 10 that comes with 10 sets of auto pistol / ccw arms, 10 autoguns, 2 shotguns, 1 heavy stubber, 1 flamer, 1 grenade launcher, 1 icon (with several top options), 1 power axe, 1 power maul and a bunch of bits to put here and there (such as frag grenades and trophies). Only thing I didn't see was a power sword.


Given that Cultists can’t get any sort of power weapon, Grenade Launchers or Icons, I think it’s safe to say that this is probably bunk.


Good point! My codex should arrive today so I can actually read the cultist listing. I'm still hoping though...

Tim


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/09 05:27:51


Post by: Dysartes


 kronk wrote:
Also, with the change to the weapons that terminators can take in this codex, they need a new kit so that you can actually make a legal squad.


You can't make a legal squad from the Termy box now, kronk? How come?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/09 07:13:41


Post by: jonolikespie


I don't know exactly what the termi kit comes with but you can no longer arm a termi with both a special melee weapon as well as a special ranged weapon.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/09 08:55:34


Post by: -DE-


You can, though barely.

Champion w/ Combi-flamer & Power Mace
Terminator w/ Combi-bolter & Power Fist
Terminator w/ Combi-bolter & Chain Fist
Terminator w/ Combi-melta & Power Axe
Terminator w/ Reaper AC/Heavy Flamer & Power Axe

There's little beyond that (PF instead of CF) unless you splash out for the CSM Termie Lord for extra arms.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/09 12:50:36


Post by: Flashman


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Flashman wrote:


3. Fantasy and 40K were originally designed as infantry games. I'm not sure all this big stuff is doing the game mechanics any favours to be honest. As Rick Priestly pointed shortly after he left, a 6" long vehicle in a game revolving around 12" ranges kind of skews game play somewhat.


I'd be interested in reading the interview where he said that! If you could shoot me a PM or even post it here I'd appreciate it.


Here's the relevant quote and link...

http://talesfromthemaelstrom.blogspot.co.uk/2011/09/rick-priestley-interview.html

What sort of scale did you originally envisage Rogue Trader playing out at? The rules, some of the narrative examples and the sections on randomly determining forces suggest a very small number of miniatures per side (we find it works great with 20ish per side). Did you ever think you’d see games with hundreds of models per side and huge war machines being used?

That sounds about right. The game was written as a skirmish wargame for about thirty models a side. That’s about the size we used to play. Again – it wasn’t expected to sell, so there was no imperative to facilitate huge games. I don’t think huge vehicles work at all – unless you really do have very large battlefields – games break down when the size of a vehicle starts to intrude upon weapon ranges and figure moves. Bit odd when a pistol shot can’t go from one end of a tank to the other! That wasn’t so much of problem back in the day, but as the models got bigger, and the vehicles especially so, it started to erode the relationship between the models, ranges and moves.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/09 14:11:04


Post by: kronk


 -DE- wrote:
You can, though barely.

Champion w/ Combi-flamer & Power Mace
Terminator w/ Combi-bolter & Power Fist
Terminator w/ Combi-bolter & Chain Fist
Terminator w/ Combi-melta & Power Axe
Terminator w/ Reaper AC/Heavy Flamer & Power Axe

There's little beyond that (PF instead of CF) unless you splash out for the CSM Termie Lord for extra arms.


Thanks for that! Glad that I was wrong. However, that's not the loadout I'd want. I mainly play against marines and would want a few power swords in there.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 04:50:58


Post by: MrScience


Do vanilla CSM models really need an update? They look fine to me.

If anything I'm more annoyed that I have to shell out 38AUD for space egyptians.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 05:29:30


Post by: jonolikespie


Yes, yes they do. All the new chaos stuff coming out looks totally different. The old guys are marines with spikes while the new stuff is mutated marines, they no longer fit the same theme.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 05:38:51


Post by: MrScience


 jonolikespie wrote:
Yes, yes they do. All the new chaos stuff coming out looks totally different. The old guys are marines with spikes while the new stuff is mutated marines, they no longer fit the same theme.


So all vanilla ones should show mutations? I'd agree with them getting new models just from a detail standpoint. I thought the point of the vanilla ones was they were basepoint from which you could go onto customise them how you wish.

How would you change them?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 09:14:19


Post by: kb305


the chaos terminators are so bulky and ackward looking.

i hate the goofy oversized mammoth tusks and the trophy wracks. bad poses... just bad all around.

forgeworld ones are so much better:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/254743?browseid=3037833



GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 12:37:33


Post by: jonolikespie


 MrScience wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
Yes, yes they do. All the new chaos stuff coming out looks totally different. The old guys are marines with spikes while the new stuff is mutated marines, they no longer fit the same theme.


So all vanilla ones should show mutations? I'd agree with them getting new models just from a detail standpoint. I thought the point of the vanilla ones was they were basepoint from which you could go onto customise them how you wish.

How would you change them?


Basically, I'd just make them look more like the new raptors only with less lightning bolts on the legs. As well they could use the same treatment other marines have gotten recently where there is every option you could want on the sprue as well as a crapload of extra heads and other stuff. What I like about the new stuff is that the armour is vaguely Mk 7 ish but clearly different, the old stuff is blatantly Mk 7 with spikes added.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 13:21:47


Post by: gorgon


*shrug* I dunno, I think it's probably smart marketing by GW. They've covered their bases in terms of models/units (the Chapterhouse effect), lead with some big shiny new impulse buys, and saved some important kits for what should be a very meaty and profitable second wave.

We should probably expect to see codex/army book releases follow this same general pattern going forward.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 14:43:01


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


kb305 wrote:
the chaos terminators are so bulky and ackward looking.

i hate the goofy oversized mammoth tusks and the trophy wracks. bad poses... just bad all around.

forgeworld ones are so much better:

http://www.coolminiornot.com/254743?browseid=3037833



AND the lack of options! For $50 I would expect to be able to make any legal unit in the codex but instead you just get one of each comibweapon and not even enough power weapons for the whole unit!

ARG!

I h8 that kit so, so much...


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 16:16:27


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 ShumaGorath wrote:


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.



For the record, I own 3 boxes of the finecast Plague Marines.

Overall, I agree with you. The basic troop choices for CSM are lagging behind the powercurve of aesthetics these days. If they redid my beloved Plaguemarines, I'd probably consider playing again. Some of the sculpts are looking somewhat dated, and should be redone. I think that in many places, Eldar fall into this category as well.

Vanilla SM don't really need new kits however, because nothing has progressed really in the story to give a reason for it, I mean, Mk. 7 power armor is still Mk 7.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/12 20:12:52


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


For marines, plastic marines in historical armor would sell like cakes that are hot.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/13 01:38:44


Post by: chris_valera


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

So here's my question, is GW making a mistake by focusing on producing new 'toys' which most people will only buy one or two of for their army rather than updating and upgrading core troop choices?


They're focusing on the big toys, because all players, new and old will but them, whereas re-done figures will only be bought by new players. I have to say, I skipped the Chaos release just becasue the new big kits olook so terrible, and they haven't re-done any of the plastics. I may pick up a great spined beast from FW, and that's it.'s tough times, and I'm cutting back.

GW should really re-do entire ranges.

--Chris


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/13 05:24:58


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
For marines, plastic marines in historical armor would sell like cakes that are hot.


Feck yes. This. Gimme.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/13 09:56:34


Post by: Pacific


A few of the ranges could probably do with an update, simply because they are showing their age and don't look as good as a lot of other stuff available on the market for a cheaper price from other manufacturers- specifically the plastic IG range (Cadians and Catachans) and some of the Undead range (don't think anyone would argue with the need for new zombies etc.).

The marine range benefits from not having stuff made by companies other than GW, although you have to think they could probably do a more detailed sculpt if they were done again these days. Part of me that has seen the new FW stuff wants me them to do it, the other part of me that has seen some of the new chaos stuff doesn't want them to touch them! There is also the possibility that we will see 'My first Space Marine' (by Playmobil).

Also, GW not doing these ranges gives other companies a chance to build themselves up. Victoria's Miniatures, Pig Iron, Anvil Industries and Mantic have all managed to grow by selling miniatures that look better and are often cheaper than the standard GW plastics for instance. So, GW being a bit relaxed in this regard at least leads to a less monopolised market, and ultimately we as hobbyists benefit from that.



GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 04:51:26


Post by: kb305


 Pacific wrote:
A few of the ranges could probably do with an update, simply because they are showing their age and don't look as good as a lot of other stuff available on the market for a cheaper price from other manufacturers- specifically the plastic IG range (Cadians and Catachans) and some of the Undead range (don't think anyone would argue with the need for new zombies etc.).

The marine range benefits from not having stuff made by companies other than GW, although you have to think they could probably do a more detailed sculpt if they were done again these days. Part of me that has seen the new FW stuff wants me them to do it, the other part of me that has seen some of the new chaos stuff doesn't want them to touch them! There is also the possibility that we will see 'My first Space Marine' (by Playmobil).

Also, GW not doing these ranges gives other companies a chance to build themselves up. Victoria's Miniatures, Pig Iron, Anvil Industries and Mantic have all managed to grow by selling miniatures that look better and are often cheaper than the standard GW plastics for instance. So, GW being a bit relaxed in this regard at least leads to a less monopolised market, and ultimately we as hobbyists benefit from that.



please no. leave the normal space marine range alone, it's perfect. tons of options, it's easy enough to convert stuff or mix and match kits if you want more detail. if they stuff tactical marines from head to toe im going to scream.

updating current plastics costs too much. i read somewhere each plastic mold costs 100s of thousands? youre pretty much stuck with zombies/chaos marines/IG range. GW shelling out for new plastic molds/machines is a last resort.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 15:35:09


Post by: armis


kb305 wrote:
updating current plastics costs too much. i read somewhere each plastic mold costs 100s of thousands? youre pretty much stuck with zombies/chaos marines/IG range. GW shelling out for new plastic molds/machines is a last resort.


This exact rumor has been doing the rounds since the 90s. I'm sure technology has advanced in the past 15 years.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 17:00:22


Post by: Dawnbringer


armis wrote:
kb305 wrote:
updating current plastics costs too much. i read somewhere each plastic mold costs 100s of thousands? youre pretty much stuck with zombies/chaos marines/IG range. GW shelling out for new plastic molds/machines is a last resort.


This exact rumor has been doing the rounds since the 90s. I'm sure technology has advanced in the past 15 years.


Yeah, I don't think you'd see so many other companies starting plastics like they have if it cost that much. Not saying it isn't expensive, but I doubt it's over 100k anymore.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 17:37:59


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


I watched a fairly recent Lego documentary and it said that a mould may cost 250,000 euros.

Of course it won't work like that anymore, but you get hte idea.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 17:50:27


Post by: MrScience


 jonolikespie wrote:
 MrScience wrote:
 jonolikespie wrote:
Yes, yes they do. All the new chaos stuff coming out looks totally different. The old guys are marines with spikes while the new stuff is mutated marines, they no longer fit the same theme.


So all vanilla ones should show mutations? I'd agree with them getting new models just from a detail standpoint. I thought the point of the vanilla ones was they were basepoint from which you could go onto customise them how you wish.

How would you change them?


Basically, I'd just make them look more like the new raptors only with less lightning bolts on the legs. As well they could use the same treatment other marines have gotten recently where there is every option you could want on the sprue as well as a crapload of extra heads and other stuff. What I like about the new stuff is that the armour is vaguely Mk 7 ish but clearly different, the old stuff is blatantly Mk 7 with spikes added.

I suppose I can agree with your reasoning there.

Then again I'm one of those guys who thinks SoB need resculpts more urgently. That is unless the Grey Knights haven't turned them all into mantlepieces,


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 18:01:14


Post by: A Kvlt Ghost


 Xeriapt wrote:
The new chosen models look awesome, but it would have been nice if the basic marines you get looked more like those than just spiky loyalists.


Yeah, I love everything about the new chaos aesthetic and I'm really, really hoping the rumours of a redone CSM box next year turn out to be true.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 18:13:49


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


I love the normal Chaos box. I don't see what's wrong with it.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 18:30:01


Post by: batfink


what annoys me is the height, when i put normal CSM up against some of my newer space wolves, they are almost a full head taller.
I guess all the chaos guys were the cool bad boys that smoked in school and now have their growth stunted


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 18:53:38


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


 batfink wrote:
what annoys me is the height, when i put normal CSM up against some of my newer space wolves, they are almost a full head taller.
I guess all the chaos guys were the cool bad boys that smoked in school and now have their growth stunted


And were the Ultramarines the kids they bullied only to end up on the wrong side of the law?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 19:09:11


Post by: batfink


Indeed, forging a narrative i like it


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 22:42:50


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


For the record Dreamforge just did it's KS for the Leviathan Crusaders and Mark (the owner) said the moulds for the Titan size Crusaders would cost $100,000


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 23:01:33


Post by: Grimtuff


 batfink wrote:
what annoys me is the height, when i put normal CSM up against some of my newer space wolves, they are almost a full head taller.
I guess all the chaos guys were the cool bad boys that smoked in school and now have their growth stunted


Really?

I hate to wheel out the old T'internet adage of "pics or it didn't happen" but really, all the SM kits (Chaos or otherwise) are designed to be modular and can go together with one another. You are either mistaken or some SW player is using some (ugh!) "truescaling" technique on their models (or have scenic bases). That or it's the topknots...


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 23:22:38


Post by: nels1031


 Grimtuff wrote:
 batfink wrote:
what annoys me is the height, when i put normal CSM up against some of my newer space wolves, they are almost a full head taller.
I guess all the chaos guys were the cool bad boys that smoked in school and now have their growth stunted


Really?

I hate to wheel out the old T'internet adage of "pics or it didn't happen" but really, all the SM kits (Chaos or otherwise) are designed to be modular and can go together with one another. You are either mistaken or some SW player is using some (ugh!) "truescaling" technique on their models (or have scenic bases). That or it's the topknots...


Might be the posture of the CSM mini's as well. They have the generic "bracing" stance of legs slightly bent and spread, much like Vanilla SM, whilst some of the SW models are standing almost completely straight, giving one the illusion of greater height.

Click on any of the images with a "bracing" SW next to one that looks to be striding forward or stand straight and you can see how one can be mistaken:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440281a&prodId=prod260003a


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 23:35:10


Post by: Samus_aran115


The space wolves kits have bigger torsos, and are not interchangeable with the regular SMs or CSM. I learned that the hard way. I don't think that would make it a head-height difference, but it's worth a note. They also have stupid hands with little slots (on the plasma guns at least). It's like they're made for 10 year olds or something.

The CSM aren't much bigger than cadians, really. They're maybe... 3mm taller? I think everyone's aware how ridiculously large cadians are though


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/15 23:49:39


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


The thing that bugs me about the CSMs models are the oversized helmets that they all have... Somehow, 10k years or so in the warp, suddenly makes your helmet too big? I mean, I get the at the time of sculpting, the may have needed a larger head to affix horns and whatnot to, but c'mon man, they are too big for the scale of the rest of the lines.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/16 02:56:33


Post by: Dawnbringer


 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
For the record Dreamforge just did it's KS for the Leviathan Crusaders and Mark (the owner) said the moulds for the Titan size Crusaders would cost $100,000


Sure, but how much larger (or many more) are molds for a Titan rather than a box of Marine (or similar), four times? Going with 4x, that would make the cost only 25K for molds for a box of infantry.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/16 18:45:41


Post by: boyd


This release is comparable to the first two fantasy releases. OGs had two new unit s with the savage orcs/boyar boyz, a handful of characters, and one really large kit. Tomb Kings went the same route except they got a monstrous infantry unit instead of cavalry. VC was slightly different in that they got cavalry, two large models, a handful of plastic characters, and a unit of monstrous infantry.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/16 18:57:40


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
The thing that bugs me about the CSMs models are the oversized helmets that they all have... Somehow, 10k years or so in the warp, suddenly makes your helmet too big? I mean, I get the at the time of sculpting, the may have needed a larger head to affix horns and whatnot to, but c'mon man, they are too big for the scale of the rest of the lines.


GW has always made their helmet heads the same size as the bare ones so the figure looks 'right' at first glance.

Of course we all know that helmet heads should be bigger than bare ones, so some GW artists give marines pin heads. The Chaos helmets might be an example of going the other way.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 07:07:47


Post by: batfink


i really think using the fantasy chaos heads make for a better looking CSM asthetically. Sure there are no pipes or rebreathers but we're chaos so who cares right?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 07:11:11


Post by: Spaz431


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.


You Have never seen it move. I have at the US Factory store in Memphis. Because people play them. Oh, and that kit has been out a while and they tend to sell out of them especially since the daemons update and. Now with the new dex. And they are not ripping you off. The raptors kit gives you lightning claws that fit terminators, spare bits to make aspiring champs for your core, or just flair out you core and still be able to build a kit. So..... STFU and quit if ya don't like it. I won't even act like I enjoy the prices, but in the end I've spent more money on booze and strippers than I will ever spend on this hobby.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 07:23:30


Post by: NimbleJack3


Oh god. I've just realised.

I'm one of those young players goaded into buying flashy specialised units with a short-term corporate strategy. I'm one of those players who have 1-2 units of Troops, and a half-dozen FA, HS, HQ and Elites choices. I don't enjoy moving big squads around and I don't enjoy rolling more than a handful of dice.

I was eyeing up a terminator box today, and I don't even have a full two squads of Marines!

What have I become?


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 12:46:09


Post by: ExNoctemNacimur


 ShumaGorath wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.


http://qkme.me/3rdqed


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 14:10:36


Post by: KalashnikovMarine


 NimbleJack3 wrote:
Oh god. I've just realised.

I'm one of those young players goaded into buying flashy specialised units with a short-term corporate strategy. I'm one of those players who have 1-2 units of Troops, and a half-dozen FA, HS, HQ and Elites choices. I don't enjoy moving big squads around and I don't enjoy rolling more than a handful of dice.

I was eyeing up a terminator box today, and I don't even have a full two squads of Marines!

What have I become?


You either die the hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 16:35:09


Post by: Surtur


Spaz431 wrote:
 ShumaGorath wrote:
 curran12 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.




This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"


No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.


You Have never seen it move. I have at the US Factory store in Memphis. Because people play them. Oh, and that kit has been out a while and they tend to sell out of them especially since the daemons update and. Now with the new dex. And they are not ripping you off. The raptors kit gives you lightning claws that fit terminators, spare bits to make aspiring champs for your core, or just flair out you core and still be able to build a kit. So..... STFU and quit if ya don't like it. I won't even act like I enjoy the prices, but in the end I've spent more money on booze and strippers than I will ever spend on this hobby.


Ok tuff guy. You kinda lost your train of thought halfway through and just went on your own tangent.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 16:38:39


Post by: Pacific


Spaz431 wrote:


You Have never seen it move. I have at the US Factory store in Memphis. Because people play them. Oh, and that kit has been out a while and they tend to sell out of them especially since the daemons update and. Now with the new dex. And they are not ripping you off. The raptors kit gives you lightning claws that fit terminators, spare bits to make aspiring champs for your core, or just flair out you core and still be able to build a kit. So..... STFU and quit if ya don't like it. I won't even act like I enjoy the prices, but in the end I've spent more money on booze and strippers than I will ever spend on this hobby.


I did think about trying to write an articulate post in reply, but then I thought why bother? Instead, better to just post the original post in its natural, un-abridged majesty. Absolutely wonderful, and the username gives the reader a warning of what to expect with the text that follows.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/17 21:29:38


Post by: NimbleJack3


 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
 NimbleJack3 wrote:
Oh god. I've just realised.

I'm one of those young players goaded into buying flashy specialised units with a short-term corporate strategy. I'm one of those players who have 1-2 units of Troops, and a half-dozen FA, HS, HQ and Elites choices. I don't enjoy moving big squads around and I don't enjoy rolling more than a handful of dice.

I was eyeing up a terminator box today, and I don't even have a full two squads of Marines!

What have I become?


You either die the hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain


Right, that's it - I'm done with 40K. I'm moving straight into the RPG games, which I acutally enjoy.
I can use the unassembled models I have left as game miniatures. Hooray for 25mm RPG standard!


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/18 00:31:04


Post by: darkkt


I think its relevant to remember that GW is first and foremost a minatures producer. The games were produced on the side, as a way of giving collectors something to do with their models.

Since the games became very successful, there has been an intermingling of priorities, but I get the feeling GW is still, a heart, focused on collectors who need to get every new model.




GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/18 00:44:40


Post by: Ensis Ferrae


 darkkt wrote:
I think its relevant to remember that GW is first and foremost a minatures producer. The games were produced on the side, as a way of giving collectors something to do with their models.

Since the games became very successful, there has been an intermingling of priorities, but I get the feeling GW is still, a heart, focused on collectors who need to get every new model.




I think that there's a little something amiss with this. I mean, I understand that GW has said this previously, but if it really were the case, then wouldn't Revel, Tamiya, or any of the other scale model companies come up with something to "do" with their models? I mean, the historical model market, I'd say is larger than the "war game" hobby market, I think that most guys who get "display" models aren't overly interested in GW or any other "gaming model" company out there, they by and large will stick with the fine scale, historic model companies, or model train companies, etc.

Even companies like Tamiya go back and redo the designs for an existing model. They go and update molds on models that sell very well. Of course, they also do sell each other various blue prints and whatnot, so in some cases, different companies make literally the same model, with the difference being in the material composition.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/18 00:57:03


Post by: -Loki-


 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I think that there's a little something amiss with this. I mean, I understand that GW has said this previously, but if it really were the case, then wouldn't Revel, Tamiya, or any of the other scale model companies come up with something to "do" with their models?


The difference with those companies is they make kits from real world stuff. If someone comes around and you say 'look at this awesome F14 I just spent months building', they might be quite interested. They probably know what an F14 is.

If someone comes around who hasn't heard of 40k, and you say 'look at this awesome Baneblade I just finished', they'll very likely be less interested, most likely considering it a toy and nothing more.


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/18 01:01:45


Post by: darkkt


Entirely possible. Perhaps its simple economics - creating a new model and mould require cost and time.

If you create an entirely new unit, your potential market is everyone (as no-one currently has this model).

If you replace an old one, your potential market is everyone LESS those people who are happy enough with the old model.

So with my current CSM army, I am seriously looking at the new flyer - but my ugly yabbadabadon can stay as he is - Im not spending the money on a new model, even if its way more awesome looking.

*(ok, if it were WAY more awesome, I might buy it - Im a sucka)*


GW neglecting bread and butter units for flashy toys @ 2012/10/18 08:14:13


Post by: Pacific


 -Loki- wrote:
 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I think that there's a little something amiss with this. I mean, I understand that GW has said this previously, but if it really were the case, then wouldn't Revel, Tamiya, or any of the other scale model companies come up with something to "do" with their models?


The difference with those companies is they make kits from real world stuff. If someone comes around and you say 'look at this awesome F14 I just spent months building', they might be quite interested. They probably know what an F14 is.

If someone comes around who hasn't heard of 40k, and you say 'look at this awesome Baneblade I just finished', they'll very likely be less interested, most likely considering it a toy and nothing more.


And that's even more the case with much of the new Chaos line, or some of the more recent Fantasy monsters/Dreadknight etc.