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So this month chaos players got this


And this



And these guys



But if you want to play 1000 Sons, or Noise Marines you have to buy some 10 year old conversion packs.



And if you want to play Plague Marines well they have some fugly finecast guys for you



And if you want to play bezerkers... well there's some 12 year models for you, available at today's prices.



Even the 10 year old Chaos Marines who are just loyalists with spikes and arrows green stuffed onto them didn't get any thing (though to be fair they got a nice upgrade sprue in 2008)



Cultists, a newly-returned troop type are only available in the starter set where they have some very nice, but one-pose models.

And this is true for other armies as well. The Vampire Counts recently got this in plastic



While the circa 1998 zombies got nothing but a price hike.

So here's my question, is GW making a mistake by focusing on producing new 'toys' which most people will only buy one or two of for their army rather than updating and upgrading core troop choices?

It may be that this is a reflection of GW's corporate strategy of appealing to impulsive, younger players that will buy en mass without necessarily becoming a long term player. To such a buyer, a multitude of flashy kits is probably better for impulse buys then cheap, utilitarian core troops. The impulse buyer wants something flashy, something big, above all, something cool. These big kits fulfill that criteria to a T (seriously, that Vampire Counts model screams "Buy me, I'm awesome!").

Now, at the same time, these new models for new units can also be reflective of a strategy of appealing to people that are established, with large collections. Such people will necessarily not be interested in new core troops because they have completed armies. With little interest in balance, new powerful units can simply be introduced in new Codex and Army Books, units with conveniently available models for established players to add to their collections...

So, this would all seem beneficial, but for one thing: this system leaves the new player, that wants to buy with purpose and establish a competitive and well rounded army, with a number of new kits (of which they only will really want a few), and a multitude of old and weary kits (of which they will want a number).

If it ain't broke, why remake it? All those core units are still relevant and valid models. New people really have no care how old the kit is, and people who already play chaos are going to impulse buy the new units. GW wins both ways.

When you boil it down, even when they remade AOBR the ork boyz may have had different poses, but were my no means New models in look at all. Just because vets are tired of looking at models doesn't make them tired or do they need to be arbitrarily remade.

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.

nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.

This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"

 curran12 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.

This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"

No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.

This has been the general trend since Blood Angels. Tyranids got a lot of good things, without these "toys" (except possibly the trygon, which I would argue is a great monstrous burrowing monstrous creature, not a toy)

It sucks. Nice comparison KK. GW really had a big opportunity to win back some gamers, but they just stacked gak higher than they thought was possible instead.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.

This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"

No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.

thought we were talking about bread and brother core troops? Not special characters? So now anything but a 100% total result of every model in the line is acceptable.

I don't see a problem with how the fine cast plague marines look. If anything, they are one of the units which fine cast flaws have less impact as it fits in with the look of the model. This all sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does re-releasing resculpts of models vets already have going to "win back gamers" when they don't actually care about winning back gamers and those gamers won't actually re-buy units they already have and would just bitch about not needing a whole new army of models they already have.

It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off

It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.

This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"

No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.

thought we were talking about bread and brother core troops? Not special characters? So now anything but a 100% total result of every model in the line is acceptable.

I don't see a problem with how the fine cast plague marines look. If anything, they are one of the units which fine cast flaws have less impact as it fits in with the look of the model. This all sounds like complaining for the sake of complaining.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does re-releasing resculpts of models vets already have going to "win back gamers" when they don't actually care about winning back gamers and those gamers won't actually re-buy units they already have and would just bitch about not needing a whole new army of models they already have.

It doesn't have to be a total resculpt, but when the core units in an army look awful and the army itself looks clearly dated except for brand new and very different looking outliers it makes them look lazy.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off

It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.

Idk about that, my first test drive with the new codex went off with a bang.. Or maybe it was the rail guns eating me up...

 Alfndrate wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off

It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.

Idk about that, my first test drive with the new codex went off with a bang.. Or maybe it was the rail guns eating me up...

Just run swarms of chaos marines. They cost as much as scouts now. Sisters of battle will be depressed about that one, theres a new king of cheap power armor swarms. Havocs are in long fang territory for being cheap too.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

There's a bit of that scupter time is limited, new molds cost money etc. Maybe GW could have skipped the dinobot for some cult upgrade sprues but its still a trade off

It's a trade off, but I doubt that their time was limited by the new models. Likely they were limited by fantasy releases or spreading too few sculpters too thin. The chaos release was anemic and this is supposed to be a total relaunch of the book with a hardcover codex and affirmation of sixth edition. Talk about starting off without a bang.

Idk about that, my first test drive with the new codex went off with a bang.. Or maybe it was the rail guns eating me up...

I know, In my game today. One guy at the end of tunr five got into a deamonhood boon, while another a spawn.
The Choas Codex came out with a boom i thnl

So here's my question, is GW making a mistake by focusing on producing new 'toys' which most people will only buy one or two of for their army rather than updating and upgrading core troop choices?

It depends on the Army.

GW only seems to replace Core troops when they redo an entire Range, Ie Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Beastmen, Skaven come to mind. May be some others I'm missing, but those Armies got a good spread of new/redone Core Troops in addition to big "flashy toys", as well as some smaller accessories like Skaven weapon teams for example.

Those are all clear examples that buck the trend that GW is only producing big centerpiece models while ignoring core troops.

But yes, looking at the whole, I do agree that priorities are out of whack, it is silly that the worst looking models in some ranges (High Elf /Dark Elf in my WHFB centric gaming ) happen to be staple core choices.

You know, I kind of feel they are doing one of their rare smart moves focusing on making a broader range rather than resculpting older models that, while showing their age a bit, are still presentable. Chaos had so many choices over the decades theere is no way they could update everything to make it new again. Let's face it, the current model range as a whole is too large for GW to keep everything fresh. They can't even keep every army fresh with their silly outdated codex format.

Also Look at Crons, Immortals(a core troop choice) got redone.
And they got plenty of flashy Toys, Aswell as 3 other models getting redone.

I agree that they ignored "bread and butter" units for flashy toys, but I would have used an entirely different set of "bread and butter" units:

The Dreadclaw and Hell Talon have been Forgeworld for ages, and are well established in the backstory of Chaos. These vehicles seem to be essential elements of how Chaos wages war in the galaxy. Nope. GW releases some daemonic flyer (cool, but not in any way iconic).

Chaos Dreadnought only available in one pose, in one starter box, with one set of options. GW releases Forgefiend/Maulerfiend (again, cool, but not iconic).

Chaos Rhino, Predator, and Land Raider still just Imperial ones with a glued on sprue, rather than retooled for Chaos. Come on!

I'm happy that the raptors are finally in plastic, but seriously, what's with the Havocs? Unholy crap, just release them in plastic. Cult troops in plastic would have been nice (or just plastic conversion sprues), but Havocs are a mainstay of a TON of CSM armies, not just those hewing to one power or another.

I guess we will have to wait to see what else they realease for the range.

The new chosen models look awesome, but it would have been nice if the basic marines you get looked more like those than just spiky loyalists.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.

 Xeriapt wrote:
I guess we will have to wait to see what else they realease for the range.

The new chosen models look awesome, but it would have been nice if the basic marines you get looked more like those than just spiky loyalists.

Bad looking spikey loyalists...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zygrot24 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.

Wherever the goal post is, I think they missed it by a lot this time 'round. There's very little new in the range that will be purchased en masse or is even particularly viable (lookin' at you claw guys). The things people are going to want lots of; cultists, base marines, thousand suns, havocs aren't being redone or only come in one big box. Nor are any of the characters that are going to see a ton of use.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Zygrot24 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.

Wherever the goal post is, I think they missed it by a lot this time 'round. There's very little new in the range that will be purchased en masse or is even particularly viable (lookin' at you claw guys). The things people are going to want lots of; cultists, base marines, thousand suns, havocs aren't being redone or only come in one big box. Nor are any of the characters that are going to see a ton of use.

Ya, I see what you're saying. It doesn't affect me very much because I'm not buying chaos, but I can see the disappointment. And that disappointment is different from the last release. And it'll be different for the next one as well.

But maybe we're being hasty? Isn't there another wave of models coming?

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 Xeriapt wrote:
I guess we will have to wait to see what else they realease for the range.

The new chosen models look awesome, but it would have been nice if the basic marines you get looked more like those than just spiky loyalists.

Bad looking spikey loyalists...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zygrot24 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's so idiotic to think of this as a black/white either/or situation, where you can either have all the new flashy stuff or redone old stuff.

It's quite possible to do both.

Not just that but the goal posts are constantly moving. You can please some of the people some of the time, etc.

Wherever the goal post is, I think they missed it by a lot this time 'round. There's very little new in the range that will be purchased en masse or is even particularly viable (lookin' at you claw guys). The things people are going to want lots of; cultists, base marines, thousand suns, havocs aren't being redone or only come in one big box. Nor are any of the characters that are going to see a ton of use.

I think that is the heart of the issue, people will still be buying them regardless of how dated they look, and unless they feel significant pressure from a third party (that can't be litigated into submission) they have no real motivation to spend the money on updating these. People will just grumble while handing them money hand over fist.

nkelsch wrote:


And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff!

New sculpts do nothing to invalidate old models and dictate they need to be replaced, so that's

You would think with all the duel box sets released for necrons, gk, dark eldar, especially the immortal deathmark one, they could have done a similar thing with say, chaos marines and bezerkers, or chosen/cult troop of some kind. I will say this releases seems very short compared to necron and dark eldar.

As above, new abbadon or kharn model would have been awsome but sadly no

I'm not a Chaos player.

I think the Thousand Suns upgrades look fine. It would be nice if they could be redone in polystyrene, however if they are selling OK it makes commercial sense to produce new kits rather than put your resources into remaking old ones.

The dragon and the carnifex look awesome but not at all Chaotic. They look to me like something for a completely new, Steampunk faction. Which could be a good concept.

It's kinda worrying when the thing I'm the most excited about in a Codex's release is a single-frame plastic Aspiring Champ...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's kinda worrying when the thing I'm the most excited about in a Codex's release is a single-frame plastic Aspiring Champ...

There isn't anything - not a single model that I am excited about in this new release. In fact, the new big kits and even the new infantry models are kind of a turn off for my love of CSM.

 ShumaGorath wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

And if they were the complaint would be: they have remade too much! It is not fair to have to buy all new stuff! I see no reason to arbitrarily remake old valid models, people like new toys and expanding model lines.

This. SO THIS.

"How DARE they make me get new core troop models! GW IS NEGLECTING US AND RIPPING US OFF!"

No one on earth would complain about a resculpt for Abbadon. That model if fething awful and he's one of the posterboys of 40k. This 40k release is one of the laziest releases GW has made in years. After the total resculpts of the DE and necron lines you would think that they'd do the same here. Chaos sure as hell needs it. No one buys the finecast plaguemarines. I have never seen a box of those move to anyone.

I bought one for my firend since he was feeling down, thats about the only one that sold at my local store since the finecast release, too expensive for 7 models, But I do like the one model with a ribcage as a shoulder pad. I do really like that the sonic blasters and blast masters being plastic now.

If they didn't add new things to the codex im pretty sure everyone would be quite offended.

If they didn't make and release the things they added in then other studios just make lookie-likes and GW looses sales (obviously not ideal).

So discounting the "they could do both argument" (cant be practical to constantly re do ENTIRE ranges - time is limited and other releases and projects are always ongoing) the releases we got are exatly the right ones for GW to bring out. there might also be more waves to come we don't know.

I would love to see old kits redone but i don't blame them for not making them for this release, just convert your units nice if you don't like old things how they are - perfectly possible. If they are going to re-do old kits they would actually be better off doing them a couple of years after a codex release, this way its like a little refresher of interest in the army (maybe in a fantasy release month) to keep fans happy and taking their time on something already available wont have risked sales. I don't expect them to do that, but either way im happy that if one day i wanted chaos i could find the spare parts and resin add ons to make them look good.

 arkapello wrote:
If they didn't add new things to the codex im pretty sure everyone would be quite offended.

Say what?

The only thing that Chaos could really have done with is the introduction of a flier (such as the awesome fighter that FW produce), maybe a drop pod and a couple of LR variants. I would have been more than happy with that. Hell, I'd have been OK with leaving the codex as it was model wise and just polishing up the rules to fit in with 6th, maybe with some upgrade packs for various cult troops.

If they didn't make and release the things they added in then other studios just make lookie-likes and GW looses sales (obviously not ideal).

So they add some new units to the codex with horrible, horrible models and you think that people will not jump on the chance to make something that doesn't look pants?

If they are going to re-do old kits they would actually be better off doing them a couple of years after a codex release, this way its like a little refresher of interest in the army (maybe in a fantasy release month) to keep fans happy and taking their time on something already available wont have risked sales.

This would only make sense if their marketing department actually... you know... marketed... How much interest can be generated when GW plop out a new model with a week's notice?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
And this is true for other armies as well. The Vampire Counts recently got this in plastic



While the circa 1998 zombies got nothing but a price hike.

Just to chime in here - while zombies didn't get a new kit, the other core choices for Vampire Counts, Skeletons, Ghouls and Dire Wolves got new plastic kits just last edition, while the rest of the range was incredibly, incredibly lacklustre. While you pointed out the new chariot, you neglected to mention what VC players got a unit they've absolutely been screaming for - plastic Black Knights. And what a fantastic kit it is as well.

The VC release was a great example of a well hyped and well delivered release. They got some things the range really needed (plastic Black Knights and a plastic Zombie Dragon), and also got some new kits that really fleshed out the range. While yes, I've heard (and made my own) grumblings about the lack of decent plastic zombies from, well, anyone, I really can't fault the VC 8th edition release. It was absolutely spot on.