Obviously a lot of people feel the new 6th edition chaos codex drops the ball in a lot of areas. I would like to compile a list of proposed changes and editions to make the codex a true representation of what it should have been. I'm envisioning a combination of mix of 3.5, 4th, and 6th.
A list of ideas and suggestions so far separated in each category it falls under (HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast Attack, Heavy, Army wide, Special Rules, War Gear, misc.) All points cost are place holders until agreed upon.
Special Rules
Chosen Sons of Chaos: Special characters are immune to the daemon prince/spawn rolls on the chaos boon table in addition to being able to decline challenges.
Chaos Lords and Sorcerers may purchase the following army wide special rules (Special characters may not); only one special rule may bought per army list:
Darkness approaches: troops have the fear & night vision special rules - 35 points
From the shadows: troops have the stealth & infiltrate special rules - 45 points
Scorch the earth: chaos bikers may be taken as troop choices - 65 points
Death from above: chaos raptors may be taken as troop choices - 55 points
HQ
Abbadon
Huron
Kharn
Ahriman
Typhus
Lucius
Fabius
Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer - may buy eternal warrior for 35 points
Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 25pts, base cost reduced 25 points
Warp Smith - Moved to the Elite Section
Dark Apostle - Move to the Elite Section, May take terminator Armor
Elites
HellBrute
Mutlitors
Possessed
Chaos Terminators
Chosen - Infiltrate returned, ability to take terminator Armor, bikes, or jump packs for 15 pts each
Noise Marines - take away the 10 marine minimum for blast masters
Thousand Sons - Have relentless when Aspiring Sorcerer is in the unit while ignoring slow and purposeful along as he remains in the unit.
Khorne Berzerkers - Base attack increased by 1, now have fleet, Chain Axes are standard war gear, May buy power weapons. Base Cost increased to 20.
Plague Marines
Troops
Chaos Space Marines -
Chaos Cultist - Aspiring Champion may take a power weapon
Fast Attack
Chaos Bikers
ChaosSpawn
Raptors
Warp Talons - 6 point cost reduction per model, ability to take grenades 1 pt per model
Helldrake
Heavy
Havocs
Land Raiders - a new land raider type
Defilers - 30 point cost reduction
Vindicator
Predator
Oblitorators - Fearless Again
Mauler Fiends
Forge Fiends
War Gear - inclusion of the generic daemon weapons of the previous codex
- an upgrade to allow rhinos to become assault vehicles, 35 points
- Axe of Blind Fury confers Fleet instead of Rage
- Return of personal Icon, may act as a teleport homer for friendly units including Daemons
Misc & Marks -Mark of Tzeentch changed back to base +5 Invul save
----------
Alternate Stat change for Daemon Prince
Special Rules: Daemon, Fearless, Monstrous Creature
120 points
Upgrades: MUST be upgraded to a daemons of a specific god. This counts as a mark of that chaos deity (with the proper rulles) and also grants the specific Daemon Prince upgrades listed in the codex.
-Can take Wings for 40 points.
-Can take Power Armor for 15 points.
-Can gain Fleshmetal for 50 points; cannot be taken along with Wings.
-Can gain a Daemonic Rune for 30 points (confers the eternal Warrior Rule)
-Can purchase Veteran of the Long War for 5 points.
-May take up to 3 Mastery Lever for 20 points each.
-Has access to Chaos Reward and Chaos Artefacts wargear lists.
I would like as much feed back and ideas as possible. Please keep in mind no new special characters or entirety new units, variants or upgrades are accepted (cult terminators, chosen terminators, vehicle variants). Nothing inherently broken either. I plan to complie everything into a pdf and have it revised over time.
Chosen Sons of Chaos: Special charecters are imune to the daemon prince/spawn rolls on the boon table in adition to being able to decline challenges.
Ability to purchase army wide special rules:
Darkness approaches: troops have the fear & night vision special rules
From the shadows: troops have the infiltrate special rule
Scorch the earth: chaos bikers may be taken as troop choices
Death from above: chaos raptors may be taken as troop choices
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valkyrie wrote: So it's been 4 days since Codex release and we're already saying how bad it is and how it needs to be improved?
Again this is a thread for those who are unsatisfied, not to complain about those who are complaining. It's not hurting you and is in the proposed rules section. Take it somewhere else.
Spartan089 wrote: Obviously a lot of people feel the new 6th edition chaos codex drops the ball in a lot of areas. I would like to compile a list of proposed changes and editions to make the codex a true representation of what it should have been. I'm envisioning a combination of mix of 3.5, 4th, and 6th.
A few ideas
- an upgrade to allow rhinos to become assualt vehicles
- take away the 10 marine minimum for blast masters
- a new land raider type
- inclusion of the generic daemon weapons of the previous codex
- t6 and eternal warrior for daemon princes
- daemon princes allowing cult troop choices with proper mark
- properly costed cult units - ect......
And so on.
I would like as much feed back and ideas as possible. Please keep in mind no new special characters or entirety new units, variants or upgrades are accepted (cult terminators, chosen terminators, vehicle variants). Nothing inheritantly broken either. I plan to complie everything into a pdf and have it revised over time.
I'm curious, what exactly do you think cult units should cost? I personally think they are priced right for what they are capable of, especially in comparison with other elite units from other armies.
Spartan089 wrote: Obviously a lot of people feel the new 6th edition chaos codex drops the ball in a lot of areas. I would like to compile a list of proposed changes and editions to make the codex a true representation of what it should have been. I'm envisioning a combination of mix of 3.5, 4th, and 6th.
A few ideas
- an upgrade to allow rhinos to become assualt vehicles
- take away the 10 marine minimum for blast masters
- a new land raider type
- inclusion of the generic daemon weapons of the previous codex
- t6 and eternal warrior for daemon princes
- daemon princes allowing cult troop choices with proper mark
- properly costed cult units - ect......
And so on.
I would like as much feed back and ideas as possible. Please keep in mind no new special characters or entirety new units, variants or upgrades are accepted (cult terminators, chosen terminators, vehicle variants). Nothing inheritantly broken either. I plan to complie everything into a pdf and have it revised over time.
I'm curious, what exactly do you think cult units should cost? I personally think they are priced right for what they are capable of, especially in comparison with other elite units from other armies.
Yes and no, plague marines are about right maybe a point cheaper should be nice, but noise marines, thousand sons and khorne berzerkers are over costed.
- 1000 sons can not overwatch, limiting their combat efficiency
- khorne berzerkers have limited war gear options, lost an attack, and are generally much worse off due to changes in assaulting. Death company does their job better and are cheaper, even khorne marked regular csm are better in certain regards
- noise marine while ignoring cover are limited due to salvo rules and the fact that taking a blast master requires 10 marines
- khorne berzerkers have limited war gear options, lost an attack, and ate generally much worse off due to changes in assaulting. Death company does their job better and are cheaper,
- khorne berzerkers have limited war gear options, lost an attack, and ate generally much worse off due to changes in assaulting. Death company does their job better and are cheaper,
Please check your math.
Why should he?
- Berzerkers: 4 attacks on charge, 2 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, 1 power weapon per unit, 19 ppm - DC: 5 attacks on charge, 3 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, lots of power weapons per unit, 20ppm
Overall: +1 ppm for +1 attack and Feel No Pain. Hooops ...
What I would like to see in the codex:
- Doomrider (Lord on Bike with +1 WS, +1 I and MoS (+2 I overall), plus Daemon special rule, plus the old "airborne movement" and "disappear on 1" special rules, plus "Exalted Champion" as built-in Warlord Trait, plus "makes Chaos Bike Squads Troops" special rule, plus a plasma pistol/power weapon with the name "Snowblind"
- An option to make character weapons master-crafted (like in the GK codex)
- Change Marks of Khorne back to plain +1 A instead of Rage/CA - Reaper Autocannons as Salvo 2/4
- Frag grenades for the Warp Talons
- Doomrider (he is sooooo cool)!
- Fleet for the Berzerkers and the Warp Talons
- Land Raider Deathfire: cargo capacity 15, 2x2 sponson mounted TL heavy flamers, hull mounted reaper AC, 250 points
- -5 points from the cost of the Havoc's special/heavy weapons
- Infiltrate and MtC for Cultists
- Bring back the Mark of Chaos Undivided: it gives Night Vision (as Chaos can see it all!) and Adamantium Will for +2 ppm - Doomrider (I can't understand how thy could left him out)!
- Thousand Sons only have S&P if no friendly Psyker is in their unit
- Price drop on the Dameon Princes by -20 points or so
- Terminator armour option for the Dark Apostle
- And finally: Doomrider!!!
I do feel the new codex more de-fanged chaos more than anythng else, Even the new units are remarkably mediocre.
I dont like the loss of EW but wouldnt mind it so much if i could get better than a 5+ invuln.
I hope they faq some of the rewards and artifacts to actually provide a benefit to the DP. (let em build up their invuln with sigil or aura,)
I appreciate the sentiment but wonder if there is a point. GW has spoken. I see two options for now:
-Using JustDave's chaos fandix as a core for a 'fixed' 6th edition book for us to use casually, or
-Writing GW's FAQ e-mail pointing out the issues in a clear, polite manner. I have done so, but didn't get to cover all the bum deals in the book, obviously.
Honestly this is all I can do right now to cope with such a let down. No amount faq's can change that, and I doubt GW will faq that much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
daedalus wrote: I wish I had the ability to dismiss a book within a week of it coming out without rigorous playtesting.
There's been 5 years of rigorous play testing, the new codex is just a minor upgrade from the old codex with some arguably worse nerfs across the board. We don't have anything that will seriously change the face of chaos, and that's the problem. Again this is the proposed rules forum not the general rules forum.
- khorne berzerkers have limited war gear options, lost an attack, and ate generally much worse off due to changes in assaulting. Death company does their job better and are cheaper,
Please check your math.
Why should he?
- Berzerkers: 4 attacks on charge, 2 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, 1 power weapon per unit, 19 ppm - DC: 5 attacks on charge, 3 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, lots of power weapons per unit, 20ppm
The Codex is fine. I played against it a few days ago, and it was much more powerful than it's predecessor. Dear god if you got any of the things that you posted, it would just be a bit too much. The only thing I COULD agree with would be T6, however I don't think he needs Eternal Warrior (and should still be down'd instantly with the right weapon just like an Avatar can be). I also feel that T5 was done on purpose and it's not all that bad. The idea is to make you play tactically with your Daemon Prince as he is not as powerful as a full fledged Daemon of the Warp. But everyone wants Assault Rhinos and you guys do not particularly need it. I venture to say that nobody will be getting them.
To address everything else. You should not get new Land Raiders, that tech was found post-heresy. I'm not sure if I agree or not with the Blast Masters, I never saw too much of an issue with them in groups of 6 as before. I like that Daemon Weapons aren't carried by every Chaos Lord and their dogs. It really made them stale in the last edition, and I'm glad to see they are more of a unique weapon again. Daemon Princes should not unlock cult troops as troop choices, they are more daemon oriented than marine oriented and would have little connection at that point to the actual commanding of forces. Cult Troops are fine, which ones don't pull their weight? Even Bezerkers, the ones that arguably got hit the worst, still hold their point value versus many other equivalents.
Why should he?
- Berzerkers: 4 attacks on charge, 2 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, 1 power weapon per unit, 19 ppm - DC: 5 attacks on charge, 3 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, lots of power weapons per unit, 20ppm
Overall: +1 ppm for +1 attack and Feel No Pain. Hooops ...
Can DC be taken as troops? AFAIK they cannot be. Mystery solved.
Spartan089 wrote: Obviously a lot of people feel the new 6th edition chaos codex drops the ball in a lot of areas. I would like to compile a list of proposed changes and editions to make the codex a true representation of what it should have been. I'm envisioning a combination of mix of 3.5, 4th, and 6th.
Maybe instead of wishlisting "fixes" to the new Codex you should just adapt? The updated Chaos book is really very strong if you use it properly...
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote: The Codex is fine. I played against it a few days ago, and it was much more powerful than it's predecessor. Dear god if you got any of the things that you posted, it would just be a bit too much. The only thing I COULD agree with would be T6, however I don't think he needs Eternal Warrior (and should still be down'd instantly with the right weapon just like an Avatar can be). I also feel that T5 was done on purpose and it's not all that bad. The idea is to make you play tactically with your Daemon Prince as he is not as powerful as a full fledged Daemon of the Warp. But everyone wants Assault Rhinos and you guys do not particularly need it. I venture to say that nobody will be getting them.
To address everything else. You should not get new Land Raiders, that tech was found post-heresy. I'm not sure if I agree or not with the Blast Masters, I never saw too much of an issue with them in groups of 6 as before. I like that Daemon Weapons aren't carried by every Chaos Lord and their dogs. It really made them stale in the last edition, and I'm glad to see they are more of a unique weapon again. Daemon Princes should not unlock cult troops as troop choices, they are more daemon oriented than marine oriented and would have little connection at that point to the actual commanding of forces. Cult Troops are fine, which ones don't pull their weight? Even Bezerkers, the ones that arguably got hit the worst, still hold their point value versus many other equivalents.
Why should he?
- Berzerkers: 4 attacks on charge, 2 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, 1 power weapon per unit, 19 ppm - DC: 5 attacks on charge, 3 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, lots of power weapons per unit, 20ppm
Overall: +1 ppm for +1 attack and Feel No Pain. Hooops ...
Can DC be taken as troops? AFAIK they cannot be. Mystery solved.
The DC question has been answered and as for new vehicle variants, what's to stop dark mechanis from tampering with the core design. That's how the redeemer and crusader came to be, they were battle feild modifications. Hell chaos could have just captured a forge world and started pumping out loyalist land taidets, the point is it makes no sense they don't have variants.
Spartan089 wrote: Obviously a lot of people feel the new 6th edition chaos codex drops the ball in a lot of areas. I would like to compile a list of proposed changes and editions to make the codex a true representation of what it should have been. I'm envisioning a combination of mix of 3.5, 4th, and 6th.
Maybe instead of wishlisting "fixes" to the new Codex you should just adapt? The updated Chaos book is really very strong if you use it properly...
Again this is the proposed rules section, I'm proposing rules for casual play not telling others how they should play. Frankly comments like that do not help nor do they have anything to do with this topic.
Can DC be taken as troops? AFAIK they cannot be. Mystery solved.
They are Troops . But they can't score. Just like the Berzerkers (who are Elites now) without a Khorne Lord.
And I'm kinda' in the dark with this math thing: 200 points of Berzerkers (9+champ) vs 200 points of DC (10 DC), and the 'zerkers will get the charge: 3 dead DC (+1 with VoLW) and 2 dead KB in phase 1, 1 dead DC and 2 dead KB in phase 2, 1 dead DC and 1 dead KB in phase 3 and 4, 0.5 dead DC and 1 dead KB in phase 5, 6, 7 and 8, where the Kbs are wiped out with roughly 1-2 DCs left. And mind you, this is with the Berzerkers charging. With the DC charging phase 1 will be like: 5 KB dead and 2 DC dead. And then, the KBs would be wiped out for phase 4 with 4-5 DCs remaining. Soooooo... The DCs will win in both scenarios. By math...
Who is going to take them without a cheap-ass khorne lord?
Who doesn't want to waste his precious HQ slot just to make a rather mediocre unit scoring?
Spartan:
I don't think that it is getting off-topic. Finding the weakness of a unit is the first step to improve it. Khorne Berzerkers are not a bad unit, but they are simply overmatched. They need something... speshul to earn their cost. This could be Fleet, a reworked Khorne Mark, Chainaxes as a basic wargear, option to take lots of power weapons otr the combination of these.
Remember everyone that the game is what you make it and GW even says make up your own rules if you want more.
Try not to judge people making their own rules if they don't like a product.
Not to be a martyr or anything, but if my Thousand Sons themed army can do okay against nasty lists then I bet most of you will be juuuuuuuuuuuuust fine. Personally, I love the book.. but this thread is not about that. It's about helping the OP with some ideas.
My only suggestion is to give a Spell Familiar to Ahriman.
Looking at a few of the suggestions, I think that Assault Rhinos would either be extremely OP when carrying marines, or would have to be priced to the point where nobody would want to take them. That being said, I agree with a bit of what is being offered, and would like to make the following suggestions:
1 SC per Legion. That is to say of the 9 traitor legions, there is at least one special character for each legion. It would make Chaos the most SC intensive codex (I believe it would give them 11, Abbadon, Kharn, Typhus, Arihman, Lucius, Fabius, Huron, plus one more character for Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors and Night Lords), but it would allow the people desperate for rules for their favored legion an option (it would at least stop the complaining for a while). The Word Bearers and the Iron Warriors could get upgraded Dark Apostles and Warpsmiths, respectively, and the Alpha Legion Character could be a special ability giver/force multiplier, and the Night Lords could give everything fear or something.
I'd also add in a large number of Daemon weapons, but make them 1 per army (special characters excluded) if they aren't already so in the new Chaos Codex. Additionally, there should be at least one daemon weapon unique to each god, but that weapon should have even further restrictions on it.
Some sort of non-marine/daemon prince HQ choice. I know some people who want to field a chaos space marine army without any chaos space marines in it, so being able to field cultists, daemon engines, and some sort of cultist commander would be nice. Perhaps reintroduce Greater Daemons into the army and have a "Greater Daemonhost" HQ choice.
More options for cultists. From what I've seen of the new codex they only really have options for a flamer and a heavy stubber in addition to marks. Maybe give them some chaosy upgrades, such as the ability to buy the brotherhood of psykers ability or become possessed by daemons or something.
I've heard that the Mark of Chaos Undivided is gone. Maybe reintroduce it and make it give models ATSKNF or something.
The thing about points cost is too many people like to look at a single unit (usually elite units) and immediately complain because there is another unit in another army that is better/cheaper and thus the new unit is overpriced. Its never that the new unit is priced right and the old, better unit was underpriced. Also, nobody ever takes into consideration the pricing of the rest of the army. In a vacuum, they are overpriced, but in a list that contains a couple of havoc squads loaded with 4 autocannons (115 points each squad, exceptionally cheap), suddenly they get lots of cover fire that may allow them to make it across the board and their stock goes up. Throw in a large, attention getting unit like a Maulerfiend, and the Berzerkers have even more potential.
As for being on topic, one change I would recommend are allowing Thousand Sons to carry a heavy weapon of some sort. Too many people complain about their price and the fact that they can't even carry a heavy weapon to deal with tanks. Losing overwatch is not that bad, and given the fact they shoot rapid fire AP3 bolters that don't get hot, it was either lose OW or get a steep points hike. At least allow plasma/melta guns.
The Mark of Tzeentch should be put back to where it was before, 5+ invul save if no invul save is available.
Given how grossly effective Chaos Marine Bikers can be now (especially for the points), I don't think they actually need Doomrider. I foresee a big spike in large biker lists for Chaos, as they are just too good with 3 of the 4 marks.
I would shy away from creating entirely new special characters. Best thing would probably be army wide special rules purchased by a chaos lord. Sort of like sagas for Space wolves. I agree with more cultist options though, and I would just restore the old chaos undivided .icon as a teleport homer
Valkyrie wrote: So it's been 4 days since Codex release and we're already saying how bad it is and how it needs to be improved?
QFT
Has anyone bothered to play with the new codex yet? Probably not. While I miss some of the old rules, I'm not goingnto whine about the new rules until I've tried them out.
Has anyone bothered to play with the new codex yet?.
I did! With an Abaddon+Chosen+Daemon Engines army (against SoB+IG, 3 battles, 1 loss, 2 wins), with Typhus+Nurgle stuff army (4 battles, against Necron, 2xSalamanders and 'Nids, 2 ties, 1 win, 1 loss), with Huron+infiltrating LR kill team+termies+daemons army (1 battle, versus Tau, big win) and lastly with an all-Tzeentch army with Ahri, TS and daemons (1 battle, against Nurgle CSM, wiped out). My proposed stuff is pretty much the reflection of my (and the two other CSM player in my gaming club) experiences.
daedalus wrote: I wish I had the ability to dismiss a book within a week of it coming out without rigorous playtesting.
It doesn't take that much effort to give it a soplid read, compare it with other, existing books, and determine if it's a step up or down.
It's quite possible that some build out there will come up and be competitive. That does not a good codex make.
I beg to differ. The Tyranid codex is better than everyone gives it credit for; Not much, but it really is if you do it right.
And, as far as this new codex goes, I've lost two out of two games against it, one with GK, one with IG. I used to beat the old codex regularly. I'd be concerned that perhaps my roommate has found one of those magical competitive builds, were it not for the fact that the backbone of his army is squads of Thousand Sons and MoT Sorcerers. I'm not saying it's an amazing codex, as two games isn't sample size enough for me to decide that yet. I'm just balking at all of the "HURR DEY SUX" that I'm reading.
But, then again, I find myself doing that every time a codex comes out, no matter what side of the fence the outrage is on.
ClassicCarraway wrote: The thing about points cost is too many people like to look at a single unit (usually elite units) and immediately complain because there is another unit in another army that is better/cheaper and thus the new unit is overpriced. Its never that the new unit is priced right and the old, better unit was underpriced. Also, nobody ever takes into consideration the pricing of the rest of the army. In a vacuum, they are overpriced, but in a list that contains a couple of havoc squads loaded with 4 autocannons (115 points each squad, exceptionally cheap), suddenly they get lots of cover fire that may allow them to make it across the board and their stock goes up. Throw in a large, attention getting unit like a Maulerfiend, and the Berzerkers have even more potential.
As for being on topic, one change I would recommend are allowing Thousand Sons to carry a heavy weapon of some sort. Too many people complain about their price and the. fact that they can't even carry a heavy weapon to deal with tanks. Losing overwatch is not that bad, and given the fact they shoot rapid fire AP3 bolters that don't get hot, it was either lose OW or get a steep points hike. At least allow plasma/melta guns.
The Mark of Tzeentch should be put back to where it was before, 5+ invul save if no invul save is available.
Given how grossly effective Chaos Marine Bikers can be now (especially for the points), I don't think they actually need Doomrider. I foresee a big spike in large biker lists for Chaos, as they are just too good with 3 of the 4 marks.
I do agree giving heavy weapons to thousand sons would mitigate a few problems, if I would include doom rider I would only have him unlock bikers as troop choices if they have the mark of Slaneesh.
I disagree. Rubrics are just fine with bolters-only. Here's why: In the fiction, a bolter can knock a space marine forwards if a bolt impacts the wall behind them. Ap3 bolters are just fine for Thousand Sons, and represent a wide variety of battlefield sorcery and cool crap going on.
I don't care about the overwatch, but the Rubricae are just as fast as regular marines and just as deadly with a sorcerer guiding them (see: Battle of the Fang).
Just the tiny tiny mechanic of Relentless w/ psyker, S&P without would make a BIG change to them and you would see more people taking them. They do not need weapons, nor do they need a points decrease.
Special weapons are not realistic. Established fiction has them using bolters with terrifying effect.
I agree that assault rhinos would be too OP, but feel that a bersker special rule that allowed them to charge from any vehicle could be viable.
Would need toning down somehow. Possibly say the vehicle has to be stationary as it was in 4th edition, and I was toying with the idea of having them carve their way out and glance/destroy the rhino in the process.
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote: The Codex is fine. I played against it a few days ago, and it was much more powerful than it's predecessor. Dear god if you got any of the things that you posted, it would just be a bit too much. The only thing I COULD agree with would be T6, however I don't think he needs Eternal Warrior (and should still be down'd instantly with the right weapon just like an Avatar can be). I also feel that T5 was done on purpose and it's not all that bad. The idea is to make you play tactically with your Daemon Prince as he is not as powerful as a full fledged Daemon of the Warp. But everyone wants Assault Rhinos and you guys do not particularly need it. I venture to say that nobody will be getting them.
To address everything else. You should not get new Land Raiders, that tech was found post-heresy. I'm not sure if I agree or not with the Blast Masters, I never saw too much of an issue with them in groups of 6 as before. I like that Daemon Weapons aren't carried by every Chaos Lord and their dogs. It really made them stale in the last edition, and I'm glad to see they are more of a unique weapon again. Daemon Princes should not unlock cult troops as troop choices, they are more daemon oriented than marine oriented and would have little connection at that point to the actual commanding of forces. Cult Troops are fine, which ones don't pull their weight? Even Bezerkers, the ones that arguably got hit the worst, still hold their point value versus many other equivalents.
Why should he?
- Berzerkers: 4 attacks on charge, 2 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, 1 power weapon per unit, 19 ppm - DC: 5 attacks on charge, 3 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, lots of power weapons per unit, 20ppm
Overall: +1 ppm for +1 attack and Feel No Pain. Hooops ...
Can DC be taken as troops? AFAIK they cannot be. Mystery solved.
The DC question has been answered and as for new vehicle variants, what's to stop dark mechanis from tampering with the core design. That's how the redeemer and crusader came to be, they were battle feild modifications. Hell chaos could have just captured a forge world and started pumping out loyalist land taidets, the point is it makes no sense they don't have variants.
"The Land Raider Crusader was originally designed by the Black Templars to provide vast amounts of anti-infantry fire before disgorging the Black Templars to mow down the survivors. It was designed during the Jerulas Crusade in (645.M39) by Artificer Simagus using recovered ancient techno-arcana in the long-forgotten depths of a captured Hive City. As tales of the Crusader's successes spread, many other Chapters began to request information regarding its remodelling. The Techpriests of Mars officially recognised the Crusader pattern in 763.M39, although this was a mere formality since the design had already spread to hundreds of Chapters." - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Crusader
So no, they did were not simple field modifications. It required "ancient techno-arana" to make it. Why is it so hard to make a Land Raider with changed guns? I have no idea, but I believe all the other variants were created along the same line and not just haphazardly.
Also towards Bezerkers, as everyone feels they are the sad kids in the corner. This is why there is little sympathy.
Spoiler:
1500 Pts Chaos Space Marines Bezerkers vs 1500 Pts Black Templars Crusaders
-No Upgraded Weapons.
-Chaos Champion +1 A included for every 10 Bezerkers in combat.
-Both armies get charge in Turn 1 (AACNMTO presumed for BT).
-Any decimals were rounded down.
Valkyrie wrote: So it's been 4 days since Codex release and we're already saying how bad it is and how it needs to be improved?
QFT
Has anyone bothered to play with the new codex yet? Probably not. While I miss some of the old rules, I'm not goingnto whine about the new rules until I've tried them out.
Actually, I have played plenty with the new book. I played during 3.5 and for the record, I did not like that book and I am glad it's gone.
I like the new rules and we all have the right to suggest new ones at any time. Dare dispute that fact?
I don't understand why people are condemned for suggesting new content. How is it any different than all the threads opened a few days prior to ANY codex release? It's not. People can do what they want with their rules, and if you'd provide some input (i've seen you post and I know that you have good things to say) maybe you would be able to improve someone's hobby from the other side of the globe.
Isn't that rewarding? If not, then why are you reading the proposed rules section?
Brometheus wrote: I disagree. Rubrics are just fine with bolters-only. Here's why: In the fiction, a bolter can knock a space marine forwards if a bolt impacts the wall behind them. Ap3 bolters are just fine for Thousand Sons, and represent a wide variety of battlefield sorcery and cool crap going on.
I don't care about the overwatch, but the Rubricae are just as fast as regular marines and just as deadly with a sorcerer guiding them (see: Battle of the Fang).
Just the tiny tiny mechanic of Relentless w/ psyker, S&P without would make a BIG change to them and you would see more people taking them. They do not need weapons, nor do they need a points decrease.
Special weapons are not realistic. Established fiction has them using bolters with terrifying effect.
Well I would say that does sound like a minor change that could help alot, and frankly don't know why it wasn't in the actually codex.
The list is a lot better than the old one, really; it may not be perfect but it isn't unplayable.
I'd like something to stick in Chaos lists to serve as an equivalent of the Stormraven/Storm Eagle, for starters, and I'd like Infiltrate back on Chosen (perhaps as a purchaseable upgrade?), though, if we're griping about things we wish we had. And an HQ that makes Raptors Troops, if only because I love the new models.
Spartan089 wrote: Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points
t6 20 point wings EW and -25 cost, you've never seen Hive Tyrant statline have you?
Spartan089 wrote: Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points
t6 20 point wings EW and -25 cost, you've never seen Hive Tyrant statline have you?
Spartan089 wrote: Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....
I apologise if I came out boorish, what you proposed for DP in comparision with what I pay for Hive Tyrant suprised me a bit. If your other propositions and complaints carry similar disproportions, I have to question their validity though.
Also my comment was also an actual question whether you know Tyrant statline and cost or not because as it is now, Tyrant is 5 point base cost higher, T6 no invunerable no EW, wings for 60 points, lower WS, lower BS, I think one less attack (not sure I only saw Daemon Prince for a moment), 2+ armour save for 40 pts vs 20 for DP. If your changes were applied and counting base cost + wings for example, that would get you 70 points cheaper all aroud better FMC, at least unless I overlooked something.
I don't think that everything should be equaly costed among codieces, obviously those units are in different armies and can't be directly compared. That said, I'm quite certain you want too much and just EW could fix the DP as it is now.
Feel free to prove me wrong though, it's easy to miss something about 40k as it's an information overload at times.
Spartan089 wrote: Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....
Well, that's the crux of the issue, really. My helpful criticism is "stop wishing you had your old codex and try curbing your disappointment long enough to play the new codex", which will be blatantly disregarded. But I will try:
- You've invented pick-and-choose army wide special rules that are customarily limited only to being allowed by virtue of taking a specific HQ. This has, by all rights, been done away with since early 4th edition.
- You've removed the fluffy drawback that your HQs had to help justify how cheap they are without any sort of point increase.
- You've made DP's literally impossible to kill before they get into melee. I would seriously have to tailor an IG list for killing your DP before it hit melee. Further, you gave it a point DECREASE.
- You've taken the only drawback that Thousand Sons have and make it even more negligible than it was previously (which is pretty damn negligible in 6th ed). In return, you've not increased the point cost.
- You've made rhinos assault vehicles for effectively 7 points per model inside. Think about that one for a while.
These things are bad. If it's an improvement, it should have a built in cost. If it's an optional improvement, it should cost even more than if it was in the included cost.
Spartan089 wrote: Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....
Well, that's the crux of the issue, really. My helpful criticism is "stop wishing you had your old codex and try curbing your disappointment long enough to play the new codex", which will be blatantly disregarded. But I will try:
- You've invented pick-and-choose army wide special rules that are customarily limited only to being allowed by virtue of taking a specific HQ. This has, by all rights, been done away with since early 4th edition.
- You've removed the fluffy drawback that your HQs had to help justify how cheap they are without any sort of point increase.
- You've made DP's literally impossible to kill before they get into melee. I would seriously have to tailor an IG list for killing your DP before it hit melee. Further, you gave it a point DECREASE.
- You've taken the only drawback that Thousand Sons have and make it even more negligible than it was previously (which is pretty damn negligible in 6th ed). In return, you've not increased the point cost.
- You've made rhinos assault vehicles for effectively 7 points per model inside. Think about that one for a while.
These things are bad. If it's an improvement, it should have a built in cost. If it's an optional improvement, it should cost even more than if it was in the included cost.
QFT, the codex is awesome and balanced. It's not everything everyone wanted but its most of the way there. Heck the last one was most of the way there for me, this one is good enough without making it a codex taliored to my army. Stop complaining and wait for a 6th ed C:SM dex to compare it too cause as far as I see there's curtailing going on across the whole game. Frankly the chaos codex is well balanced for all situations and we can make a more lethal, more specialized or flexible force than the space marines provided we pay the cost. Or we can swamp them with selfish Renegades, dear god now I want an old school red corsair army.
The funny thing about these threads really though isn't whether or not the Codex is good or not, but rather the fact that people complain about the balance as if they know better and then present completely bent or ridiculous rules that are much worse than what already exists.
I'd much prefer that all this internet whining was often accompanied with a bit of honesty stating that the actual reason at least half of those people are upset is they didn't get a broken dex. That's at least a lot more legit than what some people are trying to conjure up as reason.
I'd much prefer that all this internet whining was often accompanied with a bit of honesty stating that the actual reason at least half of those people are upset is they didn't get a broken dex. That's at least a lot more legit than what some people are trying to conjure up as reason.
Accusing people of having base motives without evidence is not a nice thing to do. People who want cheese already have plenty of books to choose from (one might even say they have a dedicated author!).
Most of the complainst I see are about things that were not broken and now are iffy (LD 8 Oblits, clunky fragile DPs, outrageously priced warp talons and defilers, etc). Now, personally, I'd be all up for revising the cheesy books from the past instead of demanding that the current codex live up to their competitive standards. Other companies do it just fine. But that's not what GW does (I dare not hope the Chaos Daemons update will be an enduring trend).
So we're left hoping each new book will be good but not -too- good, which is a very delicate balance. I think Dark Eldar were there in 5th (strong but with many exploitable flaws), and Blood Angels may be there for 6th (their FNP bubble and FC a bit weaker but still a flexible army with lots of options, even if their HQs need fixing).
Spartan089 wrote: Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....
Well, that's the crux of the issue, really. My helpful criticism is "stop wishing you had your old codex and try curbing your disappointment long enough to play the new codex", which will be blatantly disregarded. But I will try:
- You've invented pick-and-choose army wide special rules that are customarily limited only to being allowed by virtue of taking a specific HQ. This has, by all rights, been done away with since early 4th edition.
- You've removed the fluffy drawback that your HQs had to help justify how cheap they are without any sort of point increase.
- You've made DP's literally impossible to kill before they get into melee. I would seriously have to tailor an IG list for killing your DP before it hit melee. Further, you gave it a point DECREASE.
- You've taken the only drawback that Thousand Sons have and make it even more negligible than it was previously (which is pretty damn negligible in 6th ed). In return, you've not increased the point cost.
- You've made rhinos assault vehicles for effectively 7 points per model inside. Think about that one for a while.
These things are bad. If it's an improvement, it should have a built in cost. If it's an optional improvement, it should cost even more than if it was in the included cost.
QFT, the codex is awesome and balanced. It's not everything everyone wanted but its most of the way there. Heck the last one was most of the way there for me, this one is good enough without making it a codex taliored to my army. Stop complaining and wait for a 6th ed C:SM dex to compare it too cause as far as I see there's curtailing going on across the whole game. Frankly the chaos codex is well balanced for all situations and we can make a more lethal, more specialized or flexible force than the space marines provided we pay the cost. Or we can swamp them with selfish Renegades, dear god now I want an old school red corsair army.
Godless-Mimicry wrote: The funny thing about these threads really though isn't whether or not the Codex is good or not, but rather the fact that people complain about the balance as if they know better and then present completely bent or ridiculous rules that are much worse than what already exists.
I'd much prefer that all this internet whining was often accompanied with a bit of honesty stating that the actual reason at least half of those people are upset is they didn't get a broken dex. That's at least a lot more legit than what some people are trying to conjure up as reason.
I see in addition to all this "whining" on the internet as you put, people also do not know how to read. This thread is for helpful suggestions and advice only for use in casual games for people who would choose to use it. I don't dictate how you play your games so don't criticize me for wanting to play mines the way I want with reasonable changes. If your so content with the codex then you have no business here derailing my thread. Again this is the proposed rule forum. I don't see you giving input or proposing rules so kindly leave you crass comments at the door. Thank you.
Arguing that there's no point in changing what isn't broken is a form of critisism, just not the critisism you want.
You want a Codex that can make Bikes, Terminators (through Chosen) AND Raptors troops depending on what stuff you're using. You want to be able to take a 5-man Marine squad with FNP and a S8 AP3 ignores cover large blast. As has been noted, you want a FMC with way more options than any other in the game to also be cheaper than any other in the game. I'm afraid there's nothing we can add; that's crazy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: As has been noted, you want a FMC with way more options than any other in the game to also be cheaper than any other in the game. I'm afraid there's nothing we can add; that's crazy.
Let me introduce you to the Dreadknight. It has less options than the DP mostly because it comes out of the gate with an armor save and Invulnerable save that no DP can match however many points you sink into it, and also higher Toughness and Leadership. The only point in which it loses to a DP is that it can never be a flying MC; it is superior in every other regard, and usually far cheaper than a Daemon Prince.
Also, while it has zero options, the Avatar of Khaine s a steal for its point cost.
Options are tricky. Especially when many of the options involve paying for stuff that was free before. Princes had a 3+ save; now you have the 'option' of paiong for it. They were natural psykers if they were not of Khorne. Now you pay through the nose for the privilege of 'option'.
I like the ideas of the change. how ever i disagree with some stuff.
they should always have to challenge because they thirst for glory. infantasy its the same for woc (yes its a pain but you addapt.
I like the t5 not eternal warrior dp. I'm sick of having to kill 3 flying ones.
The turning into a spawn is unfortunate but pretty funny.
i like the idea of shuffling some of the units around but i do not agree with raptors and bikes as troops. if you want bikes play anothet army and if you want assault marines as troops play ba.
Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points
This is definietly way toooo OP. DPs only need a points reduction, otherwise, they are kinda' fine.
If you really want Eternal Warrior, then I would ssay that you should create a (pretty expensive, around 20-30 points) Chaos Artefact that specifically gives EW. So everyone can be happy.
Might impose a 0-1 for daemon princes to balance out certain things in any regard. Also in terms of bike troops and raptor troops thats mostly there for night lord players.
Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points
This is definietly way toooo OP. DPs only need a points reduction, otherwise, they are kinda' fine.
If you really want Eternal Warrior, then I would ssay that you should create a (pretty expensive, around 20-30 points) Chaos Artefact that specifically gives EW. So everyone can be happy.
Except its not really op, because they had all that in last codex and no one really complained, and chaos daemon princes are pretty much that as well.
Except its not really op, because they had all that in last codex and no one really complained, and chaos daemon princes are pretty much that as well.
In the last codex, the T6 was a Mark of Nurgle option, and the wings only made him a Jump MC. CD Daemon Princes are S5, take wings for 60 points, power armour for 30 points, and you need to pay 30 points to make them T6 (with MoN). Overall, by CD standards, your PA+wings+T6 DP should cost 220 points (not counting the +2 WS, +3I and +1A what should cost an additional 20-30 points). Instead of 165. And as an other problem, the CSmDp is a HQ selection, so you can "force yourself" to take it as the compulsory choice and call it a day.
Special Rules: Daemon, Fearless, Monstrous Creature
120 points
Upgrades: MUST be upgraded to a daemons of a specific god. This counts as a mark of that chaos deity (with the proper rulles) and also grants the specific Daemon Prince upgrades listed in the codex.
-Can take Wings for 40 points.
-Can take Power Armor for 20 points.
-Can gain Fleshmetal for 50 points; cannot be taken along with Wings.
-Can gain a Daemonic Rune for 30 points (confers the eternal Warrior Rule)
-Can purchase Veteran of the Long War for 5 points.
-May take up to 3 Mastery Lever for 20 points each.
-Has access to Chaos Reward and Chaos Artefacts wargear lists.
I think that the problem here is that people are not realizing just how amazing FMC are. Crazy amounts of movement, 1 in 6 chance of hitting the damn thing, and it can drop out of flying to assault at any round? Sign me up.
Some other food for thought. A lot of people have been lamenting 'losing' their 2 DPs that they ran with their CSM army. As that was the automatic build that everyone took, doesn't that maybe mean that DP were a little too good?
daedalus wrote: I think that the problem here is that people are not realizing just how amazing FMC are. Crazy amounts of movement, 1 in 6 chance of hitting the damn thing, and it can drop out of flying to assault at any round? Sign me up.
Some other food for thought. A lot of people have been lamenting 'losing' their 2 DPs that they ran with their CSM army. As that was the automatic build that everyone took, doesn't that maybe mean that DP were a little too good?
They get grounded too easy. All you need are 3 gakky units to shoot and 'hit' and they are down and probably taking a wound. I would much rather be taking a flyer that can vector strike than a 230 pt. flying DP. Of course, I am probably just too risky flying them into enemy lines where they can get shot... however it really doesn't take much. A few stormbolters from drop pods... some markerlights....
Taking 2 DP's was the only good HQ build in the last codex that thanks to T5 Eternal warrior, wouldn't just die to a missile shot.
They get grounded too easy. All you need are 3 gakky units to shoot and 'hit' and they are down and probably taking a wound. I would much rather be taking a flyer that can vector strike than a 230 pt. flying DP. Of course, I am probably just too risky flying them into enemy lines where they can get shot... however it really doesn't take much. A few stormbolters from drop pods... some markerlights....
You have a 5.5% chance of getting hit and grounded by a shot, assuming no skyfire. You can also take invul saves against that S9 hit, meaning that your odds of getting hit and then wounded from the S9 grounding hit(assuming 5++) is 3.7%. If you're letting 3 units snapshot into your 24" moving death machine, then I'd say you are just a little too risky.
On the topic of point costs, I pay 230 for a flying Hive Tyrant. I don't have a CSM codex with which to compare the DP stats from on me right now, but I'm pretty sure the only thing the Tyrant has going for it over the DP is the S6. I still have to dump 15-30 more points into the Tyrant to make him decent.
Taking 2 DP's was the only good HQ build in the last codex that thanks to T5 Eternal warrior, wouldn't just die to a missile shot.
Was the only great build. You still had Abbadon. I actually saw a sorcerer or two occasionally, but I agree that those weren't really worth it.
Really, they just did the thing they do in every codex: Knee-jerk the best thing way back and make all the other stuff better. It's done rather blatantly in Nids.
I'd bet raptors are actually somewhat worth taking now. I wouldn't know, not owning the 6th ED codex, but it's a fairly safe bet that they got at least somewhat better.
daedalus wrote: I think that the problem here is that people are not realizing just how amazing FMC are. Crazy amounts of movement, 1 in 6 chance of hitting the damn thing, and it can drop out of flying to assault at any round? Sign me up.
Exactly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Meade wrote: Taking 2 DP's was the only good HQ build in the last codex that thanks to T5 Eternal warrior, wouldn't just die to a missile shot.
You have a 5.5% chance of getting hit and grounded by a shot, assuming no skyfire. You can also take invul saves against that S9 hit, meaning that your odds of getting hit and then wounded from the S9 grounding hit(assuming 5++) is 3.7%. If you're letting 3 units snapshot into your 24" moving death machine, then I'd say you are just a little too risky.
Maybe, but considering that most small arms are 24-36 inches, and the Prince is mainly a CC machine and needs to fly close to do anything, it is hard to avoid this. Your math is incredibly misleading, btw. Yes one shot has that chance, so what? A clearer way of putting it is to say: you need 3 units, all of which put out about 6 shots or 3 twin linked (disregarding skyfire), and you will on avg. ground a daemon prince, a little less than 2/3 chance to wound him. That is not super reliable. Most armies can put out those small arms shots and unless you hide in the corner and do nothing, you will eat them.
On the topic of point costs, I pay 230 for a flying Hive Tyrant. I don't have a CSM codex with which to compare the DP stats from on me right now, but I'm pretty sure the only thing the Tyrant has going for it over the DP is the S6. I still have to dump 15-30 more points into the Tyrant to make him decent.
The Hive Tyrant is more of a beast, hands down. For 230 pts you get T6 (huge difference between T6 and T5), and you have the option to pay for an armored shell, and you get psychic powers on the biomancy chart for free.
Any way you go about this, you just won't see DP's on the field anymore, if it's not a beer-and-pretzels type game that is. For 250 pts. I could ally with a Bloodthirster, w/ T6, EW, 3+,4++ sv, or a Lord of Change, w/bolt to shoot down fliers, T6, EW, 3++ save. Who would not take those instead? And you could still take Lords or Sorcs. in your primary detachment to boot....
Was the only great build. You still had Abbadon. I actually saw a sorcerer or two occasionally, but I agree that those weren't really worth it.
Really, they just did the thing they do in every codex: Knee-jerk the best thing way back and make all the other stuff better. It's done rather blatantly in Nids.
I think DP's are still marginally useable and you can do some fun things with them. I'm happy to play with this codex, there are plenty of things I think are awesome but is it anywhere near perfect? No.
Nor should people complain when they build their list around the most uber-spammy thing they can get, and the new codex comes and invalidates it. If you play the game the way GW wants you to play it, just collecting things you think are cool and building your army around a theme that's fun, you might be somewhat protected from these things.
For instance, I just built what I thought was cool, I put huge blades on my rhinos. Now the codex came out, score! There are rules for that. I built some spawn that I hardly used last book, now score! I can use them.
I don't want to see Special Characters turning into spawns (or Princes, for that matter), but there is no reason to try and suggest they be able to decline challenges. It's an army wide rule for all characters and ICs and is quite frankly fluffy and a cool mechanic. Since every squad comes with a built in champion now you don't have to worry too much about them being forced into disadvantageous challenges - just let the flunkie soak it up and move on.
Your army wide rules are lul. Give my troops infiltrate & stealth for a flat points cost? No limitations? That's just stupid. Should only be for Chosen / CSM and should be a points cost per squad or model basis, not a flat rate. Same goes for the other variants which should be restricted to fluffy armies that are actually asking for them aka Raptors = troops only for Nightlords and such.
liquidjoshi wrote: Daemon Princes were ridiculously good in 5th, and we all know it.
Have you guys considered that GW may be trying to balance the books? Unlikely, but it has to start somewhere after all.
And if you don't like the book, go counts as. I've seen plenty of Chaos Counts as BA, SW and C:SM.
So why start with an army already suffering from lack of fluff and then removing said fluff? Heck, most people are upset because of the same things, even the ones who enjoy the new codex such as myself, still think that a lot of unnecessary things happened for no reason... For instance, why do we have to buy arms for our CSMs? literally, they dont have CCW? You have to buy them a meatball-beater... even at 2points per model it was a complete waste to have written down... There was simply no reason to have it in there... CSMs still dont have a 5models = 1 SW and havocs are still useless over groups of 5 =/
They removed Lesser Daemon swarming and DS Swarming via said Lesser Daemons... Warp Talons (although albeit very pretty model) have an extremely useless ability to attempt a forced mishap upon the squad.. Why would you risk the suicide?.. Why would you encourage it? Blind isn't worth having your entire squad sent to the other end of the board, nor simply destroyed in a catastrophic event similar to being hurled into a sun =/
Sorry, forgot to add, *if you want to start balancing out the codecis, start with GKs...
Maybe, but considering that most small arms are 24-36 inches, and the Prince is mainly a CC machine and needs to fly close to do anything, it is hard to avoid this. Your math is incredibly misleading, btw. Yes one shot has that chance, so what? A clearer way of putting it is to say: you need 3 units, all of which put out about 6 shots or 3 twin linked (disregarding skyfire), and you will on avg. ground a daemon prince, a little less than 2/3 chance to wound him. That is not super reliable. Most armies can put out those small arms shots and unless you hide in the corner and do nothing, you will eat them.
How do you get 24-36 inches for small arms fire? I would think specifically 12-24 as small arms range, as that's the long range for, well, small arms. Not sure where you're getting the extra 12" from. So then, the DP gets to choose what type of flying he is at the start of his movement, right? Okay, he moves up while doing whatever the FMC version of zooming is, up to the, say, 17"-19" mark. A squad now gets 10 shots on your DP, but in reality, it could be more like 8-9, depending on your sarge and if you packed that meltagun or that plasma gun. We'll assume 10 though. Your average at BS1 is 1.6 hits. Your first standard deviation gives you .5 to just over 4 hits. Those aren't too hard to resist with a grounding test.
With regards to the fact that you seem to think it's a problem that 3 units shooting into a DP will tear it up, I'm not sure how to respond. Frankly, I can't really think of anything that 3 full units firing into wouldn't tear to shreds. That's not a problem with the DP.
The Hive Tyrant is more of a beast, hands down. For 230 pts you get T6 (huge difference between T6 and T5), and you have the option to pay for an armored shell, and you get psychic powers on the biomancy chart for free.
Any way you go about this, you just won't see DP's on the field anymore, if it's not a beer-and-pretzels type game that is. For 250 pts. I could ally with a Bloodthirster, w/ T6, EW, 3+,4++ sv, or a Lord of Change, w/bolt to shoot down fliers, T6, EW, 3++ save. Who would not take those instead? And you could still take Lords or Sorcs. in your primary detachment to boot....
I don't have a CSM codex on me right now to compare bit for bit, but for the fact that there really isn't that much S10 in the game, I think that the panic about it getting instakilled is really overblown. Also, if I pay for the (expensive) armored shell on the flyrant, I can't take wings. Finally, I have no invul save on the Flyrant, which is probably at least as huge a difference as there is between T5 and T6.
Just some random brain-farting (new stuff to fix some of the "odd things"):
CHAOS ARTEFACTS
Armour of the Eternal War – 25 points: A model can replace his power armour with the Armour of Eternal War. Confers a 3+ armour save and the Eternal Warrior special rule.
Kai Gun – 25 points: This is a ranged weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
18” User D6 Assault X*
*The Kai Gun gets one shot for every Attack on the profile of the user.
Mark of Malal – 15 points: Chaos Lords only. The character gains +1WS, +1I, +1W and the Hatred (Chaos) and Preferred Enemy (Chaos) special rules. He confers these special rules to any unit he joins. However, the character cannot roll on the Chaos Boon table for any reasons and counts as having a Mark (so he cannot take other Marks or join units with any of the Marks).
Rune of the Exalted – 25 points: Gives +1 to the character’s rolls on the Chaos Boon table.
Staff of Change (Mark of Tzeentch only) – 35 points: This is a melee weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
- +2 4 Melee, Daemon Weapon, Concussive
It can be also used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
12” 8 1 Assault 1, Transmutation
Transmutation: A model wounded by the Staff of Change’s ranged profile must immediately succeed on a Toughness test or it is removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed and is replaced by a Spawn under the Chaos player’s control. Treat it as if the model would suffer a ‘Spawnhood’ result on the Chaos Boon table.
The Blissgiver (Mark of Slaanesh only) – 40 points: This is a melee weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
- User 2 Melee, Daemon Weapon, Instant Death
Daemon Orb – 20 points: This is a ranged weapon with the following profile:
Range Strength AP Type
6” 10 1 Assault 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot!, One Use Only
Machirepator – 30 points: Warpsmith only. The Machirepator may be used once per battle, at the beginning of the player’s own turn. Choose a non-flyer vehicle within 12” of the Warpsmith: the vehicle is immediately restored to full Hull Points and repairs all Immobilised and Weapon Destroyed damage results.
Chroxnoss Fleshmetal – 35 points: Warpsmith only. Weapons with an Armour Piercing value of 2 cannot penetrate the Warpsmith’s armour – he can take armour saves against these weapons as normal. In addition, weapons with the Fleshbane or the Poisoned special rule could only wound the Warpsmith on a roll of 6, regardless of their Strength or special modifier.
MARKS OF CHAOS
Mark of Undivided Chaos – 2 points per model/20 points: Models with the Mark of Undivided Chaos have the Adamantium Will and Night Vision special rules. Additionally, a Psyker with the Mark of Undivided Chaos must generate at least one of his powers from the Undivided Discipline (see below).
ICONS OF CHAOS
Icon of Chaos Glory – 10 points: Units with the Mark of Undivided Chaos only. When determining assault results, add two to your total for each friendly units with an icon of chaos glory locked in that combat. This bonus stacks with the normal +1 provided by the presence of Chaos Icons.
Icon of Deception – 20 points: All models in a unit equipped with an icon of deception have the Infiltrate and Acute Senses special rules.
UNDIVIDED DISCIPLINE:
Primaris Power - WARP LIGHTNING
Warp Charge 1, Witchfire
Range Strength AP Type
18” 8 5 Assault D6
1-2 - MINDSCOURGE
Warp Charge 1, Focused Witchfire
Range Strength AP Type
6” 6 2 Assault 1, Ignore Cover Saves, Psybane
Psybane: Enemy Psykers hit by the Eye of Chaos reduce their Mastery Level by 1 (to the minimum of 0) for a full Game Turn.
3-4 -WARPTIME
Warp Charge 1, Blessing
The psyker may re-roll any dice as long as this power is in effect
5-6 - DARK SUMMONING
Warp Charge 2, Conjuration
Range 12”, roll on the table below to determine the type and composition of the summoned unit:
2D6|Summoned Unit
2 2D6 Cultists with autopistols and close-combat weapons
3 2D6 Cultists with autoguns
4 2D3 Spawns
5 1D3+2 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns
6 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a flamer
7 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a heavy bolter
8 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a meltagun
9 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a missile launcher (with frag and krak missiles)
10 1D3+1 Chaos Space Marines with boltguns, 1 Chaos Space Marine with a plasma gun
11 1D6 Possessed
12 1D6 Warp Talons
So basically buff everything while costing less or tacking on a tiny amount of points for the increase? I would never play anything like this. You got a new codex and it isn't stupidly overpowered and broken. Boo hoo.
liquidjoshi wrote: Daemon Princes were ridiculously good in 5th, and we all know it.
Have you guys considered that GW may be trying to balance the books? Unlikely, but it has to start somewhere after all.
And if you don't like the book, go counts as. I've seen plenty of Chaos Counts as BA, SW and C:SM.
GoliothOnline wrote: So why start with an army already suffering from lack of fluff and then removing said fluff?
Never said anything about fluff bro.
Heck, most people are upset because of the same things, even the ones who enjoy the new codex such as myself, still think that a lot of unnecessary things happened for no reason... For instance, why do we have to buy arms for our CSMs? literally, they dont have CCW?
The Space marines would like a word with you. They can use Bolters and Pistols, but the mystery of the close combat weapon is beyond a humble tactical marine.
You have to buy them a meatball-beater... even at 2points per model it was a complete waste to have written down... There was simply no reason to have it in there...
well there is if you want them to have that +1 attack for CCW+ Pistol. MoK squads would use it quite nicely.
CSMs still dont have a 5models = 1 SW and havocs are still useless over groups of 5 =/
Havocs were always useless above 5 dudes. Far too expensive, and they were never a "competitive" choice. And I thought the 5th ED codex allowed five dudes and a meltagun kind of squads. If that's changed then it seems irritating, but nothing to get your pants in a knot over.
They removed Lesser Daemon swarming and DS Swarming via said Lesser Daemons
Take allies then?
Warp Talons (although albeit very pretty model) have an extremely useless ability to attempt a forced mishap upon the squad.. Why would you risk the suicide?.. Why would you encourage it? Blind isn't worth having your entire squad sent to the other end of the board, nor simply destroyed in a catastrophic event similar to being hurled into a sun =/
Then don't use it. I'm not sure on how blind works, but if it's that bad then don't use it, or don't take Warp Talons. Use them as raptors instead.
Sorry, forgot to add, *if you want to start balancing out the codecis, start with GKs...
**codecise.
Wow, a pop at Grey Knights. How original. Newsflash, codex creep isn't new. people complain about it, then when a balanced book comes out (i.e. there's no gimmick that's immediately found) people get butthurt. GW really can't do right by anyone, can they? It's too early to complain about this. Maybe in a month or two when no one can win a game as Chaos then your tears will be validated.
I applaud any effort of creativity but feel it may be better spent on how to make it work?
Anything new I tend not to like because it is change and I do not know it. I see many try to change things and suffer from "over adjustment" and break more things.
It appears balanced to the point that nothing "leaps out at you" as a must pick choice.
To play nice my suggested changes:
Cost a plain Defiler the same as a Leman Russ or a very slight markup.
Remove the "cannot fire the same weapon in the next turn" for Obliterators OR give them the skyfire missiles for the same price or no-one may pick these guys again.
Sorry, forgot to add, *if you want to start balancing out the codecis, start with GKs...
They did this already. It was called 6th edition.
Oh yeah because GK are really balanced now
They ALL still get Deny The Witch at at least +1, their power weapons were nerfed just about as much as every other army's, and their melee in metal boxes got nerfed as much as other armies, right?
They ALL still get Deny The Witch at at least +1, their power weapons were nerfed just about as much as every other army's, and their melee in metal boxes got nerfed as much as other armies, right?
Wrong. Their power weapons and metal boxes were nerfed the same way as every other army. It's disingenuous to say as much. It's subtle, but there's a difference. The only other vehicle that got nerfed as much as the GK ones are Eldar Falcon with Holo-Fields.
GK relied on armor ignoring weapons in melee to make up for the lack of AP2 outside of henchmen. Now, that functionality is removed. Additionally, for as obnoxious as Fortitude could get in 5th, it's now a minor thing that I frankly wish I could remove to get my 5 points back.
And a 16.6% improved chance to resist a PSA: Is that really something to be that upset about?
At any rate though, this isn't supposed to be about GK. Start a new thread if you think we should bicker about GK. This is supposed to be about indestructible Daemon Princes, Eternal Warrior for peanuts, and getting free models with zero drawback.
They ALL still get Deny The Witch at at least +1, their power weapons were nerfed just about as much as every other army's, and their melee in metal boxes got nerfed as much as other armies, right?
Wrong. Their power weapons and metal boxes were nerfed the same way as every other army. It's disingenuous to say as much. It's subtle, but there's a difference. The only other vehicle that got nerfed as much as the GK ones are Eldar Falcon with Holo-Fields.
GK relied on armor ignoring weapons in melee to make up for the lack of AP2 outside of henchmen. Now, that functionality is removed. Additionally, for as obnoxious as Fortitude could get in 5th, it's now a minor thing that I frankly wish I could remove to get my 5 points back.
And a 16.6% improved chance to resist a PSA: Is that really something to be that upset about?
At any rate though, this isn't supposed to be about GK. Start a new thread if you think we should bicker about GK. This is supposed to be about indestructible Daemon Princes, Eternal Warrior for peanuts, and getting free models with zero drawback.
They get Daemonhammers for free which have been FAQed to being AP2.
BUT I'll agree with the last part of what you said. This thread should be about how the Chaos Codex isn't broken enough and needs to be buffed into oblivion!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: As has been noted, you want a FMC with way more options than any other in the game to also be cheaper than any other in the game. I'm afraid there's nothing we can add; that's crazy.
Let me introduce you to the Dreadknight. It has less options than the DP mostly because it comes out of the gate with an armor save and Invulnerable save that no DP can match however many points you sink into it, and also higher Toughness and Leadership. The only point in which it loses to a DP is that it can never be a flying MC; it is superior in every other regard, and usually far cheaper than a Daemon Prince.
Worse WS, worse I, less attacks and the same Invulnerable Save as a Daemon Prince. With a Personal teleporter it's 205 points, which is not "far cheaper" than a Daemon Prince with PA and wings. You also missed out the insignificant part about Daemon Princes having access to Biomancy.
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: CSMs don't need fixed, you just need to learn to play the new Codex.
Alright what part of the damned proposed rules thread don't people understand..... you know what I'm done, if a MOD can lock this thread that would be great because people don't know how to read and its not worth my time. I know I originally created this topic but if every 3rd post is like this there's no point... thank you.
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: CSMs don't need fixed, you just need to learn to play the new Codex.
Alright what part of the damned proposed rules thread don't people understand..... you know what I'm done, if a MOD can lock this thread that would be great because people don't know how to read and its not worth my time. I know I originally created this topic but if every 3rd post is like this there's no point... thank you.
I wonder why ever 3rd post is saying that.. ..... OH because maybe it's true!
I understand that you aren't happy with it but that doesn't mean it needs changes, and as everyone is saying, the changes you're trying to put in are ridiculously over powered and undercosted. If you truly want to make changes to play with your local group then first wait a week or so for everyone to stop whining about how the new Dex isn't over powered as they wanted it, then really sit down and present reasonable changes for people to review. When you say you want to make everything even better for minor or even REDUCED costs... you're setting yourself up for this. The new Codex is definitely competitive and seems like it will be fun.
Just because a Codex is new and (seemingly) balanced doesn't mean that it can't be improved or changes suggested.
Even this brand new Codex has units and options that are clearly weak and could be improved, or large factions that are poorly represented and could be better accounted for.
I'm not saying I agree with the OP's suggestions (particularly on the Prince) but there is already room for improvement and changes in the new Codex IMHO.
My suggestion: don't work on a codex to replace the current one, make something new to represent something more specific like Codex: thousand sons or Codex: Alpha legion. And some entries would refer to the normal chaos codex, like the ones for loyalists do. It wouldn't step on so many toes and still get the job done.... and easier to justify to people you want to play with, because it's more of a fan-made expansion to what GW puts out.
How do you get 24-36 inches for small arms fire? I would think specifically 12-24 as small arms range, as that's the long range for, well, small arms. Not sure where you're getting the extra 12" from. So then, the DP gets to choose what type of flying he is at the start of his movement, right? Okay, he moves up while doing whatever the FMC version of zooming is, up to the, say, 17"-19" mark. A squad now gets 10 shots on your DP, but in reality, it could be more like 8-9, depending on your sarge and if you packed that meltagun or that plasma gun. We'll assume 10 though. Your average at BS1 is 1.6 hits. Your first standard deviation gives you .5 to just over 4 hits. Those aren't too hard to resist with a grounding test.
Small arms fire = bolters firing 24", hvy bolters, fire warriors, big shootas, etc. Anything that's twin linked every shot has a 1/3 chance to hit.
Every unit that hits with at least one shot has 1/3 chance to succeed in grounding. So 3 units firing that many shots will probably ground him. That's my math.
With regards to the fact that you seem to think it's a problem that 3 units shooting into a DP will tear it up, I'm not sure how to respond. Frankly, I can't really think of anything that 3 full units firing into wouldn't tear to shreds. That's not a problem with the DP.
That is what it takes to ground him, at which point he's probably taking a wound. Not 'tear him up' (your words not mine). It's not much.
I don't have a CSM codex on me right now to compare bit for bit, but for the fact that there really isn't that much S10 in the game, I think that the panic about it getting instakilled is really overblown. Also, if I pay for the (expensive) armored shell on the flyrant, I can't take wings. Finally, I have no invul save on the Flyrant, which is probably at least as huge a difference as there is between T5 and T6.
it's not overblown. I play Tau quite a bit, you have plenty of S10 in CC, you have Vindicators, you have a huge amount of Necron Doom Scythes out there. All Necrons have to do is ground the daemon prince, Which is mad easy for necrons with all their little guns sticking off their vehicles, and hit it with a Death Ray.
T6 is huge, it's what MC's should get. T5 is weak. T5 means you can be taken out by bolters and lasguns, not to mention the S5 stuff. T6, you at least need 6's to wound.
Okay even without armored shell, you get T6 and 2 Biomancy powers for the same cost as, DP with no powers? No the invl sv does not make up for that. It still leaves the DP vulnerable to small arms and S10.
I've used Daemon Princes as FMC's using the 6E rules and now using the new Chaos rules, and so far I am not impressed at all. Making one that's halfway decent with psychic powers costs the same as Abaddon... who does so much more for his points. Again, there's just nothing to justify not taking a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change instead now. And taking a flyer is so much more reliable due to the derpy grounding tests and better guns to fire from the air with.
That is what it takes to ground him, at which point he's probably taking a wound. Not 'tear him up' (your words not mine). It's not much.
So you're not arguing that they would even wipe him out or cause serious damage, merely that they would ground him? Frankly, I would HOPE three units could. Again, if you think three units firing all of their guns into one model shouldn't be able to register some sort of effect on that single model, I'm really not sure what to say at this point. Otherwise, welcome to Codex: Tyranids.
it's not overblown. I play Tau quite a bit, you have plenty of S10 in CC, you have Vindicators, you have a huge amount of Necron Doom Scythes out there. All Necrons have to do is ground the daemon prince, Which is mad easy for necrons with all their little guns sticking off their vehicles, and hit it with a Death Ray.
And have all of those guns in right places. The board is a big place, and sure, 24" is a pretty big bubble, but you move 24" every round if you want. Sounds like you might be getting outmanuvered by slower units.
T6 is huge, it's what MC's should get. T5 is weak. T5 means you can be taken out by bolters and lasguns, not to mention the S5 stuff. T6, you at least need 6's to wound.
Lasguns have the same odds to turn T5 as T6. Otherwise you're right. Bolters have a slightly improved chance to hit T5 vs T6.
Okay even without armored shell, you get T6 and 2 Biomancy powers for the same cost as, DP with no powers? No the invl sv does not make up for that. It still leaves the DP vulnerable to small arms and S10.
We might have to agree to disagree on this part. You can count on your 5+. I can't count on having the biomancy powers I hope I'll have for that game.
I've used Daemon Princes as FMC's using the 6E rules and now using the new Chaos rules, and so far I am not impressed at all. Making one that's halfway decent with psychic powers costs the same as Abaddon... who does so much more for his points. Again, there's just nothing to justify not taking a Bloodthirster or Lord of Change instead now. And taking a flyer is so much more reliable due to the derpy grounding tests and better guns to fire from the air with.
Okay, well, NOW we're getting somewhere. Were you playing against Tau at the time? Did he actually get IDed? What all happened with him?
So you're not arguing that they would even wipe him out or cause serious damage, merely that they would ground him? Frankly, I would HOPE three units could. Again, if you think three units firing all of their guns into one model shouldn't be able to register some sort of effect on that single model, I'm really not sure what to say at this point. Otherwise, welcome to Codex: Tyranids.
He's flying. I could be taking a flyer, or a tank, and it would be impossible for those same units to do anything. So no, it depends what units are firing at what. Guys with little flashlight laser guns can't do anything to a land raider, can they? But they can hurt my DP by grounding, and he costs more than a land raider. Yeah, I realize there's more manouverability with FMC's. But compared to what's out there, DP's just cost so much and are not focused enough in their roles.
And have all of those guns in right places. The board is a big place, and sure, 24" is a pretty big bubble, but you move 24" every round if you want. Sounds like you might be getting outmanuvered by slower units.
The issue is more that I need to get close in order to get into CC, or fly over the enemy for vector strike, for my DP to be effective. You can stay 24 inches away from the enemy, and do what? cast your gakky pyschic powers that a sorcerer could do for half the price?
We might have to agree to disagree on this part. You can count on your 5+. I can't count on having the biomancy powers I hope I'll have for that game.
You would trade 2 biomancy powers and t6 for a 5+ invul? Not a great trade. You use the armor to make your saves most of the time anyway. Most of the time anti-tank stuff is focused on other things, and DP's die to small arms fire, plasma and autocannons.
Okay, well, NOW we're getting somewhere. Were you playing against Tau at the time? Did he actually get IDed? What all happened with him?
Was playing Tau, did not get IDed, because he was lucky enough to get Iron Arm (there was allied farseer with runes of warding). Otherwise would have been. And I had to swoop him in from reserve in the corner of the board just to avoid the quad-gun. He took out one squad of Suits and then died to various things, including perils. He did not come close to making his points back. I came close to winning the game turn 5 but lost as it went on to turn 6. Would have been better off taking more Nurglespawn. They are T6 at least.
I think I could maybe still use DP's, but I wouldn't take much upgrades at all and use him in a list that has a lot of other fast, hard hitting stuff so he's not alone... but even then I'm probably better off with a biker lord or something.
He's flying. I could be taking a flyer, or a tank, and it would be impossible for those same units to do anything. So no, it depends what units are firing at what. Guys with little flashlight laser guns can't do anything to a land raider, can they? But they can hurt my DP by grounding, and he costs more than a land raider. Yeah, I realize there's more manouverability with FMC's. But compared to what's out there, DP's just cost so much and are not focused enough in their roles.
That's exactly how I felt when I found how new Nids were max T6. It's frustrating, but I've coped with it. Just one of those inadequacies of MCs. Believe me, you're preaching to the choir here, but fixing that calls for revamping MCs, not just bandaging DPs.
The issue is more that I need to get close in order to get into CC, or fly over the enemy for vector strike, for my DP to be effective. You can stay 24 inches away from the enemy, and do what? cast your gakky pyschic powers that a sorcerer could do for half the price?
I was assuming it would be possible to find a place such that a minimum of the opponent's army can fire upon you for occupying. The 12"+2d6 move/assault on the turn you drop out of flying helps also.
You would trade 2 biomancy powers and t6 for a 5+ invul? Not a great trade. You use the armor to make your saves most of the time anyway. Most of the time anti-tank stuff is focused on other things, and DP's die to small arms fire, plasma and autocannons.
For better worse, yeah, I think I would for the most part. A lot of biomancy is great assuming you have to survive long enough to get into melee. The trick is managing that second part. And there is nothing for anti-tank to focus on EXCEPT MCs in a Nid army.
I guess it's just a matter of perspective. I wonder how far having two DPs would go as far as disarming small arm target opportunity.
Was playing Tau, did not get IDed, because he was lucky enough to get Iron Arm (there was allied farseer with runes of warding). Otherwise would have been. And I had to swoop him in from reserve in the corner of the board just to avoid the quad-gun. He took out one squad of Suits and then died to various things, including perils. He did not come close to making his points back. I came close to winning the game turn 5 but lost as it went on to turn 6. Would have been better off taking more Nurglespawn. They are T6 at least.
I think I could maybe still use DP's, but I wouldn't take much upgrades at all and use him in a list that has a lot of other fast, hard hitting stuff so he's not alone... but even then I'm probably better off with a biker lord or something.
Death by perils is annoying. That's always been one of the things that's annoyed me about daemons: Why do they even have perils? Frustrating that you didn't do better, but I guess with a quad-gun and Tau, you've kind of got the deck stacked against you (never thought I'd be saying that about Tau). I'd be interested to see how well two DPs do against a situation like that, not that I'm demanding you run them or anything.
I know how you feel about FMC. I've literally had my Nids bounce off a Meched up BA list, causing literally no casualties because they were able to shoot my Flyrants out of the sky and then nothing else could get close enough to cope. The point of the anecdote though was that I was counting on the Flyrants to get close enough to be able to start hitting the mech before everything else moved in, and it ended up being folly because those were target priority because they were the only thing in immediate range of causing harm. FMC are awesome until they get hit, then everything starts to go to pieces. I think there's a particular amount of finesse that is required in using them, much like most subpar HQs nowadays (hi Crowe!), and it's just much easier to write them off and go for that 80 point sorcerer or some other obviously simpler to use unit, but I still don't think that means that you have to make the guy who is situationally awesome always awesome, because then he becomes situationally broken.
That's exactly how I felt when I found how new Nids were max T6. It's frustrating, but I've coped with it. Just one of those inadequacies of MCs. Believe me, you're preaching to the choir here, but fixing that calls for revamping MCs, not just bandaging DPs.
Death by perils is annoying. That's always been one of the things that's annoyed me about daemons: Why do they even have perils? Frustrating that you didn't do better, but I guess with a quad-gun and Tau, you've kind of got the deck stacked against you (never thought I'd be saying that about Tau). I'd be interested to see how well two DPs do against a situation like that, not that I'm demanding you run them or anything.
I know how you feel about FMC. I've literally had my Nids bounce off a Meched up BA list, causing literally no casualties because they were able to shoot my Flyrants out of the sky and then nothing else could get close enough to cope. The point of the anecdote though was that I was counting on the Flyrants to get close enough to be able to start hitting the mech before everything else moved in, and it ended up being folly because those were target priority because they were the only thing in immediate range of causing harm. FMC are awesome until they get hit, then everything starts to go to pieces. I think there's a particular amount of finesse that is required in using them, much like most subpar HQs nowadays (hi Crowe!), and it's just much easier to write them off and go for that 80 point sorcerer or some other obviously simpler to use unit, but I still don't think that means that you have to make the guy who is situationally awesome always awesome, because then he becomes situationally broken.
Yes, it's a problem I have with the FMC grounding tests mainly, I feel they should be more like 1/6 to fail, or you take them when you actually take a wound. But they could just make the wings cheaper and I'd be happy with that. I could run two DP's, of course, but they are so expensive we are talking about 1/4 of my army right there, just in those DP's. Even if one gets into combat that's what, one unit he kills before he dies to massed bolter fire? I mean I used to run them with Lash and just flew around staying relatively safe in the air, that was somewhat viable but no more, sadly. Like I said, there's always exceptions and ways to make things work but I really have the feeling that DP's are for fun games now and when I really need something I can rely on to win, I will just balk at taking them. For now I have no choice those are the models I have so I will use them.
HeadQuaters
Characters in general: Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles and Sorcerers(master 1-2) are 3 for 1 HQ choice.
Warpsmiths get preferred enemy vehicles and cost 10 points more.
Can take bikes(20pts)
Dark Apostles: at the begging of a chaos turn can force any unit with ATSSNF within 12" to take a ld test on 3d6, if they fail they lose ATSSNF until the start of the next chaos turn.
Can take jump pack(15pts) or terminator amror(20pts)
Sorcerers can only be masterly lvl 2.
Add in a Greater Sorcerer with +1 BS, +1 W, +1A and masterly lvl 2 for 105pts, can upgrade to lvl3 for 25 points, same options as sorcerer.
DP, benefit from marks, EW and nothing else.
Elite
Mutilators: Increased unit size to 5. Make Fearless. Increased base invunerable save to 4++(meaning MoT would have 3++)
Possessed should cost 23ppm not 26.
Bezerkers cost to 17ppm
Noise Marines cost to 16 ppm, blastmaster to 20 ppm.
plague marines 25ppm (Sorry)
TSons to 21ppm
Chosen: reduce cost of special close combat weapons. Single weapons by 5 pts, pair by 10 points. (30 points for a pair of lightning claws, seriously?)
Troops
Cultists should be able to exchange pistol and CCW for an autogun for free
Fast Attack
Bikes costs UPPED to 21ppm(sorry) and VotlW to 2ppm
Raptors cost reduced to 16ppm and VotlW to 1ppm
Spawn to 35ppm (Sorry)
Warptalons. scatter only 1d6 when DSing, come with grenades(frag, krak, and defensive)
Helldrake to 150pts or Vector strike to str9. Its a giant mechanical firebreathing robot, if it hits it is gonna tear something up.
Chosen Sons of Chaos: Special characters are immune to the daemon prince/spawn rolls on the chaos boon table in addition to being able to decline challenges.
Chaos Lords and Sorcerers may purchase the following army wide special rules (Special characters may not); only one special rule may bought per army list:
Darkness approaches: troops have the fear & night vision special rules - 35 points
From the shadows: troops have the stealth & infiltrate special rules - 45 points
Scorch the earth: chaos bikers may be taken as troop choices - 65 points
Death from above: chaos raptors may be taken as troop choices - 55 points
fear is worth more than 35 points for a universal special rule. not everyone is SM.
Stealth alone is worth WAY more than 45 points for a universal special rule
I prefer to keep things congruant with the current, chaos lord gets the mark to unlock things.
all upgrades are 15points and cannot be combined with marks and cannot join marked units.
night lords: night vision on lord, raptors are troops, if warlord ALL units get night vision, automatic fear warlord skill
word bearers: zealot special + crusader special rule, cultists do not give up VP if killed, if warlord all champions can add +1 to one die on the chaos boon roll.
alpha legion: infiltrate, stealth(on lord only), non zombie cultists can infiltrate(not CSM), if warlord automatic infiltrate warlord skill
iron warriors: preferred enemy vehicles. 1 demon engine can be taken as troops, if warlord may shatter defenses on any terrain, including purchased terrain and not in enemy deployment zone.
Having not really seen everything for the Chaos codex outside of just stuff on this forum, I can't say for sure but I feel like a lot of this stuff is an overreaction.
However, one fairly minor change that I would like to add to the Chaos Space Marines codex, but would make it so that Lost and the Damned could live again and it'd be pretty fun. My old LatD list's only marines were the ones that led the rabble!
Cultist Squad: May add a Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion for +23 points. The Aspiring Champion may take any options from the Ranged and/or Melee Options of the wargear list and may also take a Mark of Chaos: Khorne+5, Nurgle+10, Tzeentch+5, Slaanesh+5. May be a Veteran of the Long War for 5 points.
Add a bunch of new units. One of them is roughly equivalent to DE wyches, with an equally good transport,like a raider. Next, mechanical Furies, which are basically gargoyles. Then, something like a sentinel that can be run in blobs and run around the field launching bombs and missiles and junk. Next, something like artillery. Then, something like a beast that deep strikes and shoots lascannons out of itself and causes a bunch of damage, but disappears after two turns on the field (like a warp phantom or something).
Anyway, my point is that CSM are too similar to last edition CSM. They need some totally off the wall weird stuff to make them fun and interesting. Stuff that doesn't follow normal CSM playstyles. If I had the patience to actually make some of those things I mentioned and provide rules for them, I think they would be cool.
Samus_aran115 wrote: Add a bunch of new units. One of them is roughly equivalent to DE wyches, with an equally good transport,like a raider. Next, mechanical Furies, which are basically gargoyles. Then, something like a sentinel that can be run in blobs and run around the field launching bombs and missiles and junk. Next, something like artillery. Then, something like a beast that deep strikes and shoots lascannons out of itself and causes a bunch of damage, but disappears after two turns on the field (like a warp phantom or something).
Anyway, my point is that CSM are too similar to last edition CSM. They need some totally off the wall weird stuff to make them fun and interesting. Stuff that doesn't follow normal CSM playstyles. If I had the patience to actually make some of those things I mentioned and provide rules for them, I think they would be cool.
mechanical furies, (so another jump pack choice, wow that's original) blobs of sentinels (ally in IG for sentinels? you can take 1-3) thing that deep strikes and shoots lascannons (obliterators) artillery (ally in some IG)
Strong suggestions, I'm glad you didn't write the new Chaos codex
CSM already have enough weird (and by weird I mean moronic) things in their book like a flying dragon, and giant lazor cannon zoids.
Mark of Chaos Undivided: Roughly 1ppm. Models with a Mark of Chaos Undivided have ATSKNF. Additionally, a character with a mark of Chaos Undivided may join a squad marked with any mark of chaos, and may join unmarked squads.
Unholy Token: 20 Points. Characters with an Unholy token may choose to re-roll one or both dice rolled on the boon table.
Mark of the Night Lords: 2ppm. Models with the Mark of the Night Lords have the fear USR.
Mark of the Night Lords (HQ Mark): 35 Points. HQ choices only. HQ choices with the Mark of the Night Lords Legion have the fear USR. Additionally, Raptors may be taken as a troops choice, and all Warp Talon units are now scoring. However, if an HQ choice in your army has a Mark of the Night Lords Legion, no other mark other than the Mark of Chaos undivided may be taken on any units in the army.
Mark of the Alpha Legion: 4ppm. Models with the mark of the Alpha Legion gain the Inflitrate and Outflanking USRs. Mark of the Alpha Legion (HQ): 40 points: Models with the mark of the Alpha Legion gain the Inflitrate and Outflanking USRs. Additionally, if this model would be removed as a casualty, as long as there is at least one other friendly chaos space marine model on the board, roll a D6. On a 3+, instead replace a random chaos space marine in a random quad with this model (the removed model counts as a casualty). However, if a Mark of the Alpha Legion (HQ) is chosen, no other marks of chaos other than the mark of chaos undivided may be taken in your army.
I can't think of Legion marks for the world bearers or iron warriors right now.
Man some of the people here are very negative towards other's opinion I thought this was meant to be a thread where you discuss your opinions about the codex and what we would change/ improve not insult others for their opinions can't we just all get along .
I have played a couple of games with the new codex so I reckon whilst some stuff are pretty good it is generally an average codex compared to what I expected here are a few things I would change.
Make all Hqs with the correct mark able to unlock Cult units as Troops not just Lords or a few SC (I want a whole Nurgle army led by either a Warsmith Sorcerer or Dark Apostle don't want to have a Lord as well do do it)
Give back Daemon prices Eternal Warrior either with wargear or an upgrade as they are deamons so they shouldn't be able to be instantly killed
More SC why do we have the same old ones from the last codex can't GW at least come up with a few ones for the two new HQs like an iron warrior warsmith or dark apostle give some of the other legions some love with unlocking bikes, raptors or terminators as troops (bring back doomrider)
Give all SC protection against spawn or Daemon Hood they ar SC they should not be able to become a DP or Spawn, also give some form of protection against Spawnhood
More Psychic powers plus an Undivided set of powers
More God Specific wargear, daemon weapons and vehicles upgrades as well as undivided and Legion specific ones too (including marks for vehicles especially Defilers and Hellbrutes)
Give Dark apostles more wargear options including terminator armour, jump packs or bikes as well as making Flesh Metal being able to be taken by all Hqs not just Warsmiths. Being able to upgrade the 2 W Hqs to an extra wound would be nice as well like a Sorcerer Lord, Grand Dark Apostle or Supreme Warpsmith
The Chaos Champion is alright but make it so those we challenge can't refuse either with wargear or something
More Cult units for each God like Berserkers on juggernauts, or something cool etc plus actual Cult terminators
More Dedicated Transports apart from Rhinos and our only Land Raider what happened to all our Drop pods/ Dread Claws can't they at least come up with some new ones I mean we have Dark Mechanicus and Warpsmiths for gods sake why can't they make a daemon Transport or new Land Raider variant for use they can make Daemon engine but no transports, they could at least make a Land Raider Obliterator or one with a large transport capacity
Bring back infiltrate on chosen as well as giving them more options instead of only 4 being able to select special weapons or close combat weapons with an extra heavy weapon they are chaos veterans give them lots of upgrades with options for bikes or Jump packs otherwise what's the point in being Chosen if you don't have any perks
Give all Cult Units the option for Dedicated Land raider transports as well as chosen, plus another flyer and anti air maye a cool new gun for defiler or forgefiend that can be anti air
Possessed need to have more daemonic powers than just roll a dice out of 3 choices make them like the man eaters in the Ogres army book being able to select 2- 3 options off a chart of 9 with certain options not being able to be taken together.
Finally make Plague Zombies units able to be 30+ strong not 10 due to poor explaining as well as making them being able to be taken by a Nurgle HQ even if slightly more expensive not just only Typhus as I want my Zombie horde but do not really like Typhus.
Ok that is what I would change but we all know it would never happen so please don't be too critical about what I have said
Not at all. More like flying cultists. Low cost, high density unit that overhwelms thing really well on the cheap. There's hardly any high model count units in CSM, besides cultists. Everything is too fancy, and too expensive, model by model
blobs of sentinels (ally in IG for sentinels? you can take 1-3)
Why bother? I don't want to have to dig into other armies. Allies are a crutch, and stifle creativity.
thing that deep strikes and shoots lascannons (obliterators)
I don't mean literally lascannons. Something more fun than that, and more fluffy. Like a flying ball of tentacles
artillery (ally in some IG)
See number two. Allies are a crutch, and shouldn't have to be subbed into crappy codexes to make them less terrible
Strong suggestions, I'm glad you didn't write the new Chaos codex
I'm glad you took time out of your day to be condescending ass. They weren't demands, they were ideas.
I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.
Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.
Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.
dracosz wrote: I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.
Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.
Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.
I like the removal of Daemon weapons, every lord and their dog had one and it was boring. FYI, the murder sword and the Brand are not Daemon weapons. Realistically Khorne lords are the only ones that need a Daemon weapon, they don't get psykers and as a result they are vulnerable to psykers (with one notable exception with the blessing of the blood god). That and they are ment to rip it up in combat more than the others. I'm amused but the term gimmicky, they are situation weapons that fill purposes and play styles. They have negatives and unique bonuses that are almost always astronomically powerful by comparison to other unique weapons.
Well, MoTF can't take wings/jump packs either. But I suspect that perhaps the CSM codex is a taste of generalised revisions to come for the rest of the 6th ed races. GW tend to rebalance weak to strong and strong gets nerfed. Common boring trends get written out and less used units get new flexibilty or focus.I'd wait to see what they do with the other MEQ codices before really getting into a grass is greener fight. That said, as it stands I agree with you here, its like GW shooting themselves in the foot limiting these units if other MEQ versions won't be.
I'm glad you took time out of your day to be condescending ass. They weren't demands, they were ideas.
How is a flying ball of tentacles any more fluffy than a flying mechanical dragon or a giant chaos zoid? I understand that they're ideas but fundamentally they don't really add anything to the army outside of another gimmick.
You're not understanding my point which is that sometimes less is more. You want a ton of "crazy" things added, which Chaos has already had added. A giant mechanical dragon? Yeah that's pretty out there, as are the Mauler/Forgefiend.
Look at my suggestion and then back at yours. Your suggestions are all superfluous and don't really add a new playstyle, it's just a bunch of out-there suggestions. Mine makes a whole army possible, aka Lost and the Damned which tons of players used back in the day before it was made illegal.
Vladsimpaler wrote: Having not really seen everything for the Chaos codex outside of just stuff on this forum, I can't say for sure but I feel like a lot of this stuff is an overreaction.
However, one fairly minor change that I would like to add to the Chaos Space Marines codex, but would make it so that Lost and the Damned could live again and it'd be pretty fun. My old LatD list's only marines were the ones that led the rabble!
Cultist Squad:
May add a Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion for +23 points. The Aspiring Champion may take any options from the Ranged and/or Melee Options of the wargear list and may also take a Mark of Chaos: Khorne+5, Nurgle+10, Tzeentch+5, Slaanesh+5. May be a Veteran of the Long War for 5 points.
While I may not agree entirely on the overeaction thing, I agree on the upgrade for cultist bloobs (felt they needed more options anyway) their aspiring champion, as he is, isn't really going to beat anyone in challenge
mechanical furies, (so another jump pack choice, wow that's original)
Vladsimpaler wrote:
Not at all. More like flying cultists. Low cost, high density unit that overhwelms thing really well on the cheap. There's hardly any high model count units in CSM, besides cultists. Everything is too fancy, and too expensive, model by model
Why do you feel like CSM is entitled to low-cost blobs? You already have cultists, in a book that represents thousands-of-years old, warp-twisted badasses, everything should be fancy and expensive. Not every book is made to have tarpits, especially fast-moving ones. Use cultists if you want an overwhelmer, or else go to a different book. Don't expect your book to be able to fill every niche in the game.
What I have found the new CSM codex is grossly underwhelming if you want to do a dedicated list. 1000 sons, Emp Children, Plague Marines and even Berzerkers are too costly to field en masse. However if you look at CSM, Havocs, Bikers and even Raptors are cheap. The remaking of Obliterators is good.
Take CSM, 140 points for 10 marines is cheap. Now if you want VotLW and the backup CCW, they are going to cost. Look at it, for 270 points you have 20 marines! Now they may not be impressive but in numbers they are. Havocs are dirt cheap even with the HW.
My problem is mostly aesthetics. I hate the dragon model, I would have preferred a plastic CSM fighter or fighter bomber. I am disappointed that they didn't make a chaos drop pod. I am totally disgusted that they took the time to make a nice plastic chaos lord but didn't rework obliterators to plastic. I find the new war engines meh. As far as the rules, there were some things lost but if you are willing to adapt, the new CSM codex is perfectly viable.
tbh I think the codex is well balanced and a nice reflection of the 3.5 codex minus the silliness like Iron Warriors. No need for proposed rules, though a small handful of FAQs are needed...this wishlisting is like slapping Phil Kelly in the face and telling him he wrote the book incorrectly.
Honestly, as of right now, there are just a few things that bother me.
There should have been Daemon Weapons available for the other Three gods.
The ability to purchase Additional Mastery levels (And use the Divination dicisple) for Aspiring sorcerers
Being able to Mark Vehicles
Mutilators gaining Rampage.
Warpsmiths should have been able to degrade purchased fortifications and perhaps been able to add an extra heavy support slot. (0-4 heavy, for instance)
Dark Apostles should have been a 0-3 Elite Choice
Those are really my biggest complaints. I'm satisfied for the most part with everything else.
toxic_wisdom wrote: tbh I think the codex is well balanced and a nice reflection of the 3.5 codex minus the silliness like Iron Warriors. No need for proposed rules, though a small handful of FAQs are needed...this wishlisting is like slapping Phil Kelly in the face and telling him he wrote the book incorrectly.
Yes, one of the original 20 legions is obviously silly. Yeah, joking lol
Really though It wouldn't be hard to adapt Iron warriors to the new dex, just as its now easy enough to adapt any of the legions to the new dex even if you need to use allies a bit it still works. Cept now its easier with the inclusion of new HQ options that fill thematic needs of Iron warriors and Word bearers.
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Sasori wrote: Honestly, as of right now, there are just a few things that bother me.
There should have been Daemon Weapons available for the other Three gods.
The ability to purchase Additional Mastery levels (And use the Divination dicisple) for Aspiring sorcerers
Being able to Mark Vehicles
Mutilators gaining Rampage.
Warpsmiths should have been able to degrade purchased fortifications and perhaps been able to add an extra heavy support slot. (0-4 heavy, for instance)
Dark Apostles should have been a 0-3 Elite Choice
Those are really my biggest complaints. I'm satisfied for the most part with everything else.
Then it would basically be a requirement to have a DW again and Khorne would have nothing for the lack of Psykers. Boring.
Making lowly ACs as powerful as HQ level psykers. Divination is limited for chaos for a reason, hell if i know what it is though. Your suggestion is basically asking for Divination powers in ALL your squads (Don't even think about charging them, they can get full BS overwatch, fun), that's wrong on so many levels. If anyone in CSM should get it then only Ahriman should get it and he should get prescience at least for "free" as per his fluff. Mind you I'm glad they made him mastery level 4, it was a bit of an insult him being Mastery level 3.
Mutilators getting rampage is good, might make them useful as opposed to laughable. Still don't know why they removed fearless from Oblits and by extension Mutils, Oblits are only just useful.
Techpriests and techmarines don't do this and I don't see them doing it in the future, no point.
Cause chaplain equivilants should always be 0-3, pass.
Then it would basically be a requirement to have a DW again and Khorne would have nothing for the lack of Psykers. Boring.
How would it be a requirement? Make them diffrent enough, so that each one has it's own benefits. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's a helluve a lot less boring than TWO daemon weapons in the entire dex.
Making lowly ACs as powerful as HQ level psykers. Divination is limited for chaos for a reason, hell if i know what it is though. Your suggestion is basically asking for Divination powers in ALL your squads (Don't even think about charging them, they can get full BS overwatch, fun), that's wrong on so many levels. If anyone in CSM should get it then only Ahriman should get it and he should get prescience at least for "free" as per his fluff. Mind you I'm glad they made him mastery level 4, it was a bit of an insult him being Mastery level 3.
As of right now, Aspiring Sorcerers can only get powers from the Tzeench Tree. Gift of Mutation is useless, and you can't take Breath of Chaos. You basically either hope for Doombolt, or you swap gift for Firestorm. being able to Purchase an Additional Mastery level, would also not make them anywhere near the power of the HQ psykers, as they don't have the same statline.
Right now Thousand son squads are pathetic, and the Aspiring Sorcerer is borderline useless, with a 50% to roll the worst power in the game. Being able to Purchase Mastery levels would help some, and Divination as option would be a good thing.
Techpriests and techmarines don't do this and I don't see them doing it in the future, no point.
Techmarines and Techpriests aren't Warpsmiths Are they?
Also, in case you didn't know, the Warpsmith has the "Shatter Defenses ability" all they would have to do is take out the line about not being able to use it on purchased terrain. This is perfectly in line with being Siege specalists. Adding an Extra Heavy support slot would also help in that Direction.
Cause chaplain equivilants should always be 0-3, pass.
As of right now, everyone is passing up the Dark Apostle, because no one wants to waste an HQ slot on him. I can count on my hand how many times I've seen people take Chaplains as an HQ choice. They would be taken, and actually useful, as a 0-3 elite slot.
dracosz wrote: I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.
Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.
Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.
I like the removal of Daemon weapons, every lord and their dog had one and it was boring. FYI, the murder sword and the Brand are not Daemon weapons. Realistically Khorne lords are the only ones that need a Daemon weapon, they don't get psykers and as a result they are vulnerable to psykers (with one notable exception with the blessing of the blood god). That and they are ment to rip it up in combat more than the others. I'm amused but the term gimmicky, they are situation weapons that fill purposes and play styles. They have negatives and unique bonuses that are almost always astronomically powerful by comparison to other unique weapons.
/quote]
Yes because the useless chaos lord needed something to justify itself, the DP was just a slot over and far better, but couldn't take DW, so thus the chaos lord took a DW because it was the only unique thing to it. Now we don't even get different DW types for the Chaos lord Or Daemon prince
GW tend to rebalance weak to strong and strong gets nerfed.[ Common boring trends get written out and less used units get new flexibilty or focus.
Agreed here fully, the Dark Apostle doesn't offer enough compared to the rest, most people at best take him and chaplains for fluffy reasons, and Tson aspiring sorcerers are pretty bad.
Then it would basically be a requirement to have a DW again and Khorne would have nothing for the lack of Psykers. Boring.
How would it be a requirement? Make them diffrent enough, so that each one has it's own benefits. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's a helluve a lot less boring than TWO daemon weapons in the entire dex.
Making lowly ACs as powerful as HQ level psykers. Divination is limited for chaos for a reason, hell if i know what it is though. Your suggestion is basically asking for Divination powers in ALL your squads (Don't even think about charging them, they can get full BS overwatch, fun), that's wrong on so many levels. If anyone in CSM should get it then only Ahriman should get it and he should get prescience at least for "free" as per his fluff. Mind you I'm glad they made him mastery level 4, it was a bit of an insult him being Mastery level 3.
As of right now, Aspiring Sorcerers can only get powers from the Tzeench Tree. Gift of Mutation is useless, and you can't take Breath of Chaos. You basically either hope for Doombolt, or you swap gift for Firestorm. being able to Purchase an Additional Mastery level, would also not make them anywhere near the power of the HQ psykers, as they don't have the same statline.
Right now Thousand son squads are pathetic, and the Aspiring Sorcerer is borderline useless, with a 50% to roll the worst power in the game. Being able to Purchase Mastery levels would help some, and Divination as option would be a good thing.
Techpriests and techmarines don't do this and I don't see them doing it in the future, no point.
Techmarines and Techpriests aren't Warpsmiths Are they?
Also, in case you didn't know, the Warpsmith has the "Shatter Defenses ability" all they would have to do is take out the line about not being able to use it on purchased terrain. This is perfectly in line with being Siege specalists. Adding an Extra Heavy support slot would also help in that Direction.
Cause chaplain equivilants should always be 0-3, pass.
As of right now, everyone is passing up the Dark Apostle, because no one wants to waste an HQ slot on him. I can count on my hand how many times I've seen people take Chaplains as an HQ choice. They would be taken, and actually useful, as a 0-3 elite slot.
With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.
Low cost, high quantity Aspiring Sorcerers. I'd be thankful they get anything at all, add to that all power rolls have not so good powers in it its the point. Divination, really, having Prescience to Scrier's Gaze on that many units is wrong, so no. Nothing will change my mind on that subject. Its not needed and its too powerful for the quantity and cost. How are Thousand sons pathetic? They are pretty much the same as the last codex, have access to soul blaze and pay less for the mandatory Sorcerer. What am I missing? Oh you don't like the powers, well they are ment to be low power level abilitys at one warp charge. Altering their Mastery would make them as powerful as HQs powers wise, not as survivable. That's the distinction.
I misread the first part, which is pretty bad idea anyway. They excluded fortifications from shatter defenses and I agree with it. Just as bolster defenses cannot improve fortifications and I definatly agree with that call. The other part about altering the Force organisation was great for Iron warriors in 3.5 but is terrible for 6th ed play. its unnessasary and no other unit does this, HQ or not. If anything they should alter unit organisation something akin to a Master of the forges ability.
The Dark Apostle is awesome for support and buffs. Run one with a lord for rerolls on the boon table and crusader USR, its a great combo. Or run one with a large assault unit, the Aspiring champion gets rerolls on the boon table and they unit gets Crusader USR. OR even better run all three together for a damn powerful combat unit Heck chaplains and alike are powerful when used in combination with things not as one man army's. Perhaps the people you play with have no use for combat buffers, most space marine forces don't so I'm not supprised. Close combat oriented forces would benefit more from them for sure, just as mech heavy forces benefit from having Tech marines, MotF, warpsmiths etc etc. Its nothing new, people play what they will and will find use in things they find useful for their play style. Me personally will almost always roll a Dark Apostle with my lord and close combat squad. Im really tempted to get a land raider for the assault, but the crusader rule will get them into combat fast enough.
dracosz wrote: I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.
Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.
Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.
I like the removal of Daemon weapons, every lord and their dog had one and it was boring. FYI, the murder sword and the Brand are not Daemon weapons. Realistically Khorne lords are the only ones that need a Daemon weapon, they don't get psykers and as a result they are vulnerable to psykers (with one notable exception with the blessing of the blood god). That and they are ment to rip it up in combat more than the others. I'm amused but the term gimmicky, they are situation weapons that fill purposes and play styles. They have negatives and unique bonuses that are almost always astronomically powerful by comparison to other unique weapons.
/quote]
Yes because the useless chaos lord needed something to justify itself, the DP was just a slot over and far better, but couldn't take DW, so thus the chaos lord took a DW because it was the only unique thing to it. Now we don't even get different DW types for the Chaos lord Or Daemon prince
GW tend to rebalance weak to strong and strong gets nerfed.[ Common boring trends get written out and less used units get new flexibilty or focus.
Agreed here fully, the Dark Apostle doesn't offer enough compared to the rest, most people at best take him and chaplains for fluffy reasons, and Tson aspiring sorcerers are pretty bad.
As per the refocus in the last CSM codex. 3.5 to 4th was almost a reverse flip of the whole codex. 6th ed CSM is a slower more gradual rebalance pulling back over powered units (read as what people viewed as the only useful units in the codex) while buffing less used units like noise marines. Its something they do regularly, I'm supprised you don't understand the concept.
As per the refocus in the last CSM codex. 3.5 to 4th was almost a reverse flip of the whole codex. 6th ed CSM is a slower more gradual rebalance pulling back over powered units (read as what people viewed as the only useful units in the codex) while buffing less used units like noise marines. Its something they do regularly, I'm supprised you don't understand the concept.
Generally it's noted that the reverse flip is pretty bad to begin with, the rebalance was only in some area's whereas you can easily see some core issues arise from this new balance, such as the fact DP's aren't worth taking and have complete, wonky rules that actually hurt kitted out lords due to the boon table. Chosen, despite getting two attacks are horribly imbalanced when it comes to melee, as their wargear is far to expensive, leaving them in the previous role set up by 4th edition. Defilers got an unnecessary nerf in that they are now far more expensive and still worse then the standard space marine variants, land raiders are still horribly priced and bad for terminator travel, Thousand Sons are actually Worse then the 4th edition setup.
To say the least I understand that there can be balance over the editions, but it's not always gradual, it comes in waves and is as random as the boon table. There is no such thing as a rebalance, as things change in heavy ways throughout the editions.
With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.
So now instead of five bland daemon weapons, your down to two bland melee weapons. One of which is for Khorne only, Progress?
Not to mention Slaanesh doesn't have a unique item.
With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.
The people that I saw take lords, had a different Daemon weapon depending on the type of Army they've run. It wasn't boring, at all. It doesn't make any sense how you can say loosing variety, and customization, in a codex is a good thing, it's not. It would not have been difficult to make Unique Daemon weapons. Look what they did with the Black Mace, and the Axe, are you saying they couldn't make 3 more unique Weapons for each god? The answer is, they could have, and it would not be boring at all.
Low cost, high quantity Aspiring Sorcerers. I'd be thankful they get anything at all, add to that all power rolls have not so good powers in it its the point. Divination, really, having Prescience to Scrier's Gaze on that many units is wrong, so no. Nothing will change my mind on that subject. Its not needed and its too powerful for the quantity and cost. How are Thousand sons pathetic? They are pretty much the same as the last codex, have access to soul blaze and pay less for the mandatory Sorcerer. What am I missing? Oh you don't like the powers, well they are ment to be low power level abilitys at one warp charge. Altering their Mastery would make them as powerful as HQs powers wise, not as survivable. That's the distinction.
Thousand Sons squads, are anything but low cost, and really, "I should be thankful they get anything at all?" I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be thankful, when the codex writer makes a half ass attempt at something. If you really think being able to have Divination on aspiring sorcerers, is "Wrong, and too powerful" then you are overestimating it's power. People Took Divination on their Thousand Son squads before this Codex hit, and it was far from gamebreaking. It made Thousand Sons usable though, for the first time since 5th edition hit. Now, they are relegated to being shelved again. Soul Blaze is completely useless, so having access that worthless Icon does nothing for the squad.
Also, cheap Aspiring Sorcerers? They are two points less than the cost of an HQ sorcerer, how is that Cheap? Not to mention, I am certain, that it wasn't intended for there to be "Not so good powers" In any discipline. For that matter, All the powers in Nurgle and Slaanesh are excellent. Tzeench got the worst powers by far.
What you are missing that there is no competitive aspect to Thousand Sons at the moment, they are Overcosted and bring little to the table. A few small things, like the ability to take an additional Mastery level, and access to divination(Or at the very least, not being forced to take the horrible Tzeentch powers), would improve this situation. The Fact is, Thousand Sons got a small cost Decrease on the Sorcerer(12) and are still the worst possible Cult choice.
I misread the first part, which is pretty bad idea anyway. They excluded fortifications from shatter defenses and I agree with it. Just as bolster defenses cannot improve fortifications and I definatly agree with that call. The other part about altering the Force organisation was great for Iron warriors in 3.5 but is terrible for 6th ed play. its unnessasary and no other unit does this, HQ or not. If anything they should alter unit organisation something akin to a Master of the forges ability.
So, because no other unit does something, we can't start here? That's a poor argument. Also, how is it Terrible for 6th play? Just because you can take double FoC at 2000? Well, the sad part about that is, that alot of people play 1999+1, to avoid this. It also doesn't help at the point level below this. Do you really think it would be any worse than being able to swap around things in slots? It wouldn't be.
The Dark Apostle is awesome for support and buffs. Run one with a lord for rerolls on the boon table and crusader USR, its a great combo. Or run one with a large assault unit, the Aspiring champion gets rerolls on the boon table and they unit gets Crusader USR. OR even better run all three together for a damn powerful combat unit Heck chaplains and alike are powerful when used in combination with things not as one man army's. Perhaps the people you play with have no use for combat buffers, most space marine forces don't so I'm not supprised. Close combat oriented forces would benefit more from them for sure, just as mech heavy forces benefit from having Tech marines, MotF, warpsmiths etc etc. Its nothing new, people play what they will and will find use in things they find useful for their play style. Me personally will almost always roll a Dark Apostle with my lord and close combat squad. Im really tempted to get a land raider for the assault, but the crusader rule will get them into combat fast enough.
The Dark Apostle is not a competitive choice, though, in a rather crowded slot. Can you honestly say that having them in a 0-3 Elite slot would be bad? More people would take them, instead of appealing to a small niche crowd. As a HQ choice, it's just won't be taken in competitive lists, which is sad, because it's a decent unit (With Zealot, not Crusader) but it's in a bad slot. Competing with SCs, Lords/Sorcerers to unlock troops, and the Warpsmith. It's on the bottom of the totem pole.
As per the refocus in the last CSM codex. 3.5 to 4th was almost a reverse flip of the whole codex. 6th ed CSM is a slower more gradual rebalance pulling back over powered units (read as what people viewed as the only useful units in the codex) while buffing less used units like noise marines. Its something they do regularly, I'm supprised you don't understand the concept.
Generally it's noted that the reverse flip is pretty bad to begin with, the rebalance was only in some area's whereas you can easily see some core issues arise from this new balance, such as the fact DP's aren't worth taking and have complete, wonky rules that actually hurt kitted out lords due to the boon table. Chosen, despite getting two attacks are horribly imbalanced when it comes to melee, as their wargear is far to expensive, leaving them in the previous role set up by 4th edition. Defilers got an unnecessary nerf in that they are now far more expensive and still worse then the standard space marine variants, land raiders are still horribly priced and bad for terminator travel, Thousand Sons are actually Worse then the 4th edition setup.
To say the least I understand that there can be balance over the editions, but it's not always gradual, it comes in waves and is as random as the boon table. There is no such thing as a rebalance, as things change in heavy ways throughout the editions.
I agree the revers flip was pretty bad, but refocusing on the troops was a great idea and it was what most of us asked for. The fact that a DP is a MC alone makes it a brutal choice, add its options to the mix and your have one of the most flexible MC, potentially FMCs, in the game. Granted you pay though the nose for those options they are still there. I fully support upping their T to six no questions asked, but thats as far as I'm willing to alter them presently. Any MC is a lethal unit, it makes no difference what its fighting for the most part.
Chosen have to pay a lot for their melee options, wow I'm shocked. Vanguard Vets pay alot for theirs too and they are a dedicated Melee unit. Wolf guard pay though the nose for theirs too and they occupie the same position in the force organisation slot and even equivilant rank thematically. The difference is Chosen can take 4-5 special weapons and/or a heavy at 5-6 models. 2 attacks base does not make them a melee unit, cheap or expensive melee options does not make them a melee unit. They have increased options for melee and can even make themselves better with Veterans of the Long war, Marks and Icons. With all those additions they would be pretty good at melee, but they would cost a fair bit. But if you use the present set up then you can roll in with the same kit and a bonus attack. Ace.
Really, defilers got nerfed? I must be reading a different codex because I love what they did to them, 5+ invulnerable save, daemon forge rule, 4HPs and the ability to regenerate a HP each turn. for just +45 points. Really? Then tack on the options it has, the power scourge is well worth the points, the dirge caster is worth the points if you plan to charge with it or anything near it. And even before that, what equivilant did the Space marines have? Am I missing somthing? When did they have a death walker from hell with an ordinance piece in its chest that could have up to 5 fething attacks?
Land raiders are still expensive, there no real supprise there. Terrible for TDA transport, I suppose but the same argument can be made for any land raider in any codex. And I fail to see how thousand sons got worse from the previous codex's variant, they remained mostly the same with a slight reduction in cost due to the sorcerer, at least you don't need to pay for powers any more, and you have access to the Icon. Sure Soul blaze isn't mind bogglingly good but the other 3 cult icons are not much better (baring the slaneesh icon which is significantly more expensive.).
With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.
So now instead of five bland daemon weapons, your down to two bland melee weapons. One of which is for Khorne only, Progress?
Not to mention Slaanesh doesn't have a unique item.
Well instead of 5 deamon weapons we now have 2 and several other options that are not daemon weapons including tactical options, a sword that almost assures the 'kill the enemy warlord' secondary objective, an AP3 torrent flamethrower, random additional spells. You know, things that are more than just a AP2 beat stick, THATS progress.
To be honest I didn't look but you can't take a doom siren on a Slaneesh HQ anymore? Nothing? I know they have their own mount like everyone else. There is most likely, somthing in the lists of war gear that slaneesh can get exclusivly. if not then valid point.
With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.
The people that I saw take lords, had a different Daemon weapon depending on the type of Army they've run. It wasn't boring, at all. It doesn't make any sense how you can say loosing variety, and customization, in a codex is a good thing, it's not. It would not have been difficult to make Unique Daemon weapons. Look what they did with the Black Mace, and the Axe, are you saying they couldn't make 3 more unique Weapons for each god? The answer is, they could have, and it would not be boring at all.
As above, its a daemon weapon AP2 beat stick with varied rules. Boring. The other additions that are not daemon weapons are interesting and are not all beat sticks. That is variety.
Low cost, high quantity Aspiring Sorcerers. I'd be thankful they get anything at all, add to that all power rolls have not so good powers in it its the point. Divination, really, having Prescience to Scrier's Gaze on that many units is wrong, so no. Nothing will change my mind on that subject. Its not needed and its too powerful for the quantity and cost. How are Thousand sons pathetic? They are pretty much the same as the last codex, have access to soul blaze and pay less for the mandatory Sorcerer. What am I missing? Oh you don't like the powers, well they are ment to be low power level abilitys at one warp charge. Altering their Mastery would make them as powerful as HQs powers wise, not as survivable. That's the distinction.
Thousand Sons squads, are anything but low cost, and really, "I should be thankful they get anything at all?" I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be thankful, when the codex writer makes a half ass attempt at something. If you really think being able to have Divination on aspiring sorcerers, is "Wrong, and too powerful" then you are overestimating it's power. People Took Divination on their Thousand Son squads before this Codex hit, and it was far from gamebreaking. It made Thousand Sons usable though, for the first time since 5th edition hit. Now, they are relegated to being shelved again. Soul Blaze is completely useless, so having access that worthless Icon does nothing for the squad.
Also, cheap Aspiring Sorcerers? They are two points less than the cost of an HQ sorcerer, how is that Cheap? Not to mention, I am certain, that it wasn't intended for there to be "Not so good powers" In any discipline. For that matter, All the powers in Nurgle and Slaanesh are excellent. Tzeench got the worst powers by far.
What you are missing that there is no competitive aspect to Thousand Sons at the moment, they are Overcosted and bring little to the table. A few small things, like the ability to take an additional Mastery level, and access to divination(Or at the very least, not being forced to take the horrible Tzeentch powers), would improve this situation. The Fact is, Thousand Sons got a small cost Decrease on the Sorcerer(12) and are still the worst possible Cult choice.
First point, CSM did not have access to Divination, ever. If you ever did that, technically you were cheating. Secondly Thousand sons were getting screwed points wise when it came to the mandatory sorcerer. I see in this edition no massive cost for the mandatory power which as a net result puts them where they needed to be in 4th/5th. Low cost flunky sorcerers. Any alteration from here would requite returning to the high cost redundancy of the previous edition. Thats why you should be thankful they get a power, they cost signifiantly less than their previous rendition and yet you can still roll a decent power. And the primaris isn't bad either if you roll something you can't use.
Doombolt is pretty much the same as one of the most expensive powers you could have bought in the last edition but 'free by comparison. Boon of mutation is awesome and can even be used on himself, buffing himself repeatedly each turn.At the cost of punching himself in the gut its not a bad trade off. And the Primaris power Fire storm is potentially good against Armour 10-13 vehicles and works wonders on blob units. Good thing you can further increase the potential death with Soulblaze on the AP3 boltguns which is also great against blobs.But the AP3 makes it useful for power armour, flexible. Yeah thats much worse than HAVING to pay for a uber expensive power that only a few were any good and no option for soulblaze at all.
Yeah they get more options and a cheaper sorcerer with better powers for 'free' without losing anything, they really are the worst cult unit ever (Add sarcasm)
I misread the first part, which is pretty bad idea anyway. They excluded fortifications from shatter defenses and I agree with it. Just as bolster defenses cannot improve fortifications and I definatly agree with that call. The other part about altering the Force organisation was great for Iron warriors in 3.5 but is terrible for 6th ed play. its unnessasary and no other unit does this, HQ or not. If anything they should alter unit organisation something akin to a Master of the forges ability.
So, because no other unit does something, we can't start here? That's a poor argument. Also, how is it Terrible for 6th play? Just because you can take double FoC at 2000? Well, the sad part about that is, that alot of people play 1999+1, to avoid this. It also doesn't help at the point level below this. Do you really think it would be any worse than being able to swap around things in slots? It wouldn't be.
Well no, just because they specifically avoided both suggestions in any rendition of a unit, similar or other wise, including this one indicates to me its not the direction they are interested in pursuing. Again, I think It would be awesome having them unlock a unit choice or expand ones maximum unit size or alter them much like typhus does, but gone are the days where a unit alters the Force organisation. The 3.5 mechanic for Iron Warrors was good, balanced and even enjoyable but its something they moved away from across almost every codex. Why not start here, well its a silly old idea for the many reasons I listed not the least of which being they moved away from it. And the other suggestion about shatter defenses would have space marines asking for Bolster to work on fortifications which as prevoisly stated would be OP as feth and make a simple fortification fort knox. Hyperbole is fun no?
Anyone suggesting we play a 1999+1 point game to me would get a laugh. Once established they are serious then I would simply laugh harder and find a different opponent. Its terrible for 6th play because we have FoCs coming out of our ears. Between 2000 points and allies there is no point. Accept the limitation for low point games, everyone else does what makes CSM so special that they simply must buck the trend within 2 weeks of the release of their codex?
The Dark Apostle is awesome for support and buffs. Run one with a lord for rerolls on the boon table and crusader USR, its a great combo. Or run one with a large assault unit, the Aspiring champion gets rerolls on the boon table and they unit gets Crusader USR. OR even better run all three together for a damn powerful combat unit Heck chaplains and alike are powerful when used in combination with things not as one man army's. Perhaps the people you play with have no use for combat buffers, most space marine forces don't so I'm not supprised. Close combat oriented forces would benefit more from them for sure, just as mech heavy forces benefit from having Tech marines, MotF, warpsmiths etc etc. Its nothing new, people play what they will and will find use in things they find useful for their play style. Me personally will almost always roll a Dark Apostle with my lord and close combat squad. Im really tempted to get a land raider for the assault, but the crusader rule will get them into combat fast enough.
The Dark Apostle is not a competitive choice, though, in a rather crowded slot. Can you honestly say that having them in a 0-3 Elite slot would be bad? More people would take them, instead of appealing to a small niche crowd. As a HQ choice, it's just won't be taken in competitive lists, which is sad, because it's a decent unit (With Zealot, not Crusader) but it's in a bad slot. Competing with SCs, Lords/Sorcerers to unlock troops, and the Warpsmith. It's on the bottom of the totem pole.
HQ isn't crowded unless you try to field everything at once. You have 5 base options which is around the same for all MEQs and we manage to field only 2 (or up to 4 for SWs) without assuming that the slot is crowded. There are many potential combinations for many different army's. You don't need to dedicate at all, you could rock an IW force with a warpsmith and a DP (or just one Warpsmith or even two) and kit out for heavy weapons and daemon engines. The cheaper HQ and lack of dedication would let you spend more points on other units like Daemon engines that are more IW, not to mention a IG ally with a squad of tanks. Or a Alpha legion list with tons of cultists with a cheap lord, throw in fortifications and IG allies if you want, some chosen for some space marine presence and a unit to stick the lord in. The no brainer Word bearers list with a Dark Apostle and maybe a lord, sorcerer or DP if you are so inclined or have the points with a mix of cultists and marines and Daemon allies for sure. The fact is they are cheap thematic alternatives and even have use supporting a lord or sorcerer.
Side note: I was hoping for a lot of thematic additions like forbidden tech or daemon forged weapons (Do not read as Daemon weapons), arcane items, chuirigeon units/models and xenotech items (seeing as chaos SM are not opposed to using them). And base inclusions from before the heresy like storm shields, a thunder hammer/equivilant, and things like that. Also I'd have liked to see thematic legion rules like death guard having to pay more for anything thats not a bolt gun but they get rending bolt guns as per their training almost exclusivly in the use of boltguns. Really I though that especially with Phil Kelly writing it that lot of the Space wolf codex would have filtered into the CSM codex (like the 4 HQs with limitation and the general WG rules for chosen and chosen terminators) but it didnt happen, what we got is still fun and the thing alot of us forget is its the first 6th ed codex. the rest are going to fall into line around this one so I look at it as a guide of how 6th will shape up for the rest of the races.
Its just as flexible, if not more so than the 4th ed dex and not as pigeon holed as the 3.5. Has a strong focus on troops like the 4th but also brought back powerful and varied HQs like 3.5. ITs a good blend of both IMO.
Tally me up as another person who would like have seen daemon weapons for all 4 gods and the chosen keeping infiltrate. As for Daemon weapons, they don't all have to be equal for crying out loud, something I'd like to have seen:
Khorne: keep that axe, it's pretty boss
Nurgle: give him that mace, it practically screams Nurgle as is
Slaanesh: Power sword with rending
Tzeentch: At the start of each of the controlling player's turn, roll D3. Whatever the result, the weapon has the corresponding profile:
1: S5 AP3 Flamer with Torrent and Soul Blaze, roll a D6 before shooting, if roll a 1, suffers a wound with no armor saves allowed
2: S +2/User AP 3/4 power lance with Soul Blaze
3: The Daemon weapon becomes a nigh invulnerable shield, User gains a 2+ invulnerable save but cannot shoot nor attack in the assault phase. Any wound that is suffered results in Instant Death.
Chosen have to pay a lot for their melee options, wow I'm shocked. Vanguard Vets pay alot for theirs too and they are a dedicated Melee unit. Wolf guard pay though the nose for theirs too and they occupie the same position in the force organisation slot and even equivilant rank thematically. The difference is Chosen can take 4-5 special weapons and/or a heavy at 5-6 models. 2 attacks base does not make them a melee unit, cheap or expensive melee options does not make them a melee unit. They have increased options for melee and can even make themselves better with Veterans of the Long war, Marks and Icons. With all those additions they would be pretty good at melee, but they would cost a fair bit. But if you use the present set up then you can roll in with the same kit and a bonus attack. Ace.
And that's why you never see Vanguard Vets except in the very occasional blood angels list, the problem is that they are supposed to be a versatile unit that can do either melee or special weapons options, however with the costs of their melee puts them above terminator costs and terminators get those weapons far cheaper, so the costs are horrible and wasn't balanced properly, and now they are just more efficient shooters, you also forget that the wolf guard are that way because they can be added to other squads as well, and can take terminator armor for cheap. Versatility doesn't do much if your other options are to expensive to take.
Really, defilers got nerfed? I must be reading a different codex because I love what they did to them, 5+ invulnerable save, daemon forge rule, 4HPs and the ability to regenerate a HP each turn. for just +45 points. Really? Then tack on the options it has, the power scourge is well worth the points, the dirge caster is worth the points if you plan to charge with it or anything near it. And even before that, what equivilant did the Space marines have? Am I missing somthing? When did they have a death walker from hell with an ordinance piece in its chest that could have up to 5 fething attacks?
My mistake, that was supposed to be apart of the Land Raider argument, regardless of that fact they aren't worthwhile in melee, they are WS3 and can be downed by krak and melta grenades just as easily (Yes you can take scourge for better melee resistance, but then your hitting near land raider costs), had they gained AV13 they might've gained potential as a melee unit that had it's own unique place, but no they are outclassed by the maulerfiend as it's both cheaper, and does better in melee combat and gets there far faster, the cannon is the only thing that sets it apart as the forgefiend can make a better shooter, and if you want a mixed the helbrute is a far cheaper, and better option. It just isn't worthwhile with the better options in its same slot.
Land raiders are still expensive, there no real supprise there. Terrible for TDA transport, I suppose but the same argument can be made for any land raider in any codex. And I fail to see how thousand sons got worse from the previous codex's variant, they remained mostly the same with a slight reduction in cost due to the sorcerer, at least you don't need to pay for powers any more, and you have access to the Icon. Sure Soul blaze isn't mind bogglingly good but the other 3 cult icons are not much better (baring the slaneesh icon which is significantly more expensive.).
At the very least the space marines have the Crusader Variant, to be fair I would've loved to take bale flamers or Hades Cannon on that thing after hearing about them, as for Thousand Sons the thing of the matter is they are very slightly cheaper, but now you have a 50% chance of getting a worthless power on the chart, in 5th you could take one of three paths to roll on. Also the only worthless icon besides the soul flame icon is the Nurgle Fear Icon, as you must remember that the Khorne one grants Furious Charge and Rerollable charge range (Which is both thematic, and worthwhile) and Feel No Pain (always good). The problem is that unlike nurgle fear the soul flame has no benefit at all to the Thousand Sons, as they shouldn't be firing at low Armour units to begin with.
Well instead of 5 deamon weapons we now have 2 and several other options that are not daemon weapons including tactical options, a sword that almost assures the 'kill the enemy warlord' secondary objective, an AP3 torrent flamethrower, random additional spells. You know, things that are more than just a AP2 beat stick, THATS progress.
To be honest I didn't look but you can't take a doom siren on a Slaneesh HQ anymore? Nothing? I know they have their own mount like everyone else. There is most likely, somthing in the lists of war gear that slaneesh can get exclusivly. if not then valid point.
So one couldn't have exclusive daemon weapons that could've been changed up to become more then AP2 beat sticks? Progress could've changed them at the least to something more different like the maul. Though I did applaud the new artifacts, the problem is they are all very situational, and we could've used more. It just seems so limited in the grand scheme of chaos.
One can get the mount however, and you could never take a doom siren on a HQ, not since 3.5.
Chosen have to pay a lot for their melee options, wow I'm shocked. Vanguard Vets pay alot for theirs too and they are a dedicated Melee unit. Wolf guard pay though the nose for theirs too and they occupie the same position in the force organisation slot and even equivilant rank thematically. The difference is Chosen can take 4-5 special weapons and/or a heavy at 5-6 models. 2 attacks base does not make them a melee unit, cheap or expensive melee options does not make them a melee unit. They have increased options for melee and can even make themselves better with Veterans of the Long war, Marks and Icons. With all those additions they would be pretty good at melee, but they would cost a fair bit. But if you use the present set up then you can roll in with the same kit and a bonus attack. Ace.
And that's why you never see Vanguard Vets except in the very occasional blood angels list, the problem is that they are supposed to be a versatile unit that can do either melee or special weapons options, however with the costs of their melee puts them above terminator costs and terminators get those weapons far cheaper, so the costs are horrible and wasn't balanced properly, and now they are just more efficient shooters, you also forget that the wolf guard are that way because they can be added to other squads as well, and can take terminator armor for cheap. Versatility doesn't do much if your other options are to expensive to take.
More specifically that's why you'll never see Vanguard vets with stacks of power weapons. Wolf guard come out at reletive cost to chosen and chosen terminators, they always have they are the better comparison because they are so similar in rank, Force organisation slot and (for the most part) use. Keeping spending down on any unit is always tricky, some times its good to lash out and buy the options if you have a plan. But most of the time is a point sink thats hard to make pay for itself. Just the same as you can make a nigh unstoppable melee typhoon with Wolf guard, but you'd pay though the nose for it, read as pay Character costs for everything. Granted WG are also our characters so they should pay that high cost it doesn't preclude the fact that they are the same as any other vet unit but all of them have the +1 LD in addition to the +1 A and they only become a character if they are reassigned. My point is no vet unit has cheap close combat weapons, adding them to chosen does not preclude them from the same standards. Mind you as a khorne player I'm happy to have the melee options for chosen should I wish to use chosen reguardless of the high cost I know with a MoK on the charge or being charged they will be pretty lethal. Mix and match they don't have to be limited to all specials or all melee options.
The same argument could be made for warp talons and Mutilators, they are supposed melee units but are terrible units because they are so expensive for what you get. I liked the suggestion that Mutilators get rampage, it fits them well and makes them a mean melee unit. Warp talons could use something similar but they are fairly well adjusted and its hard to gauge how they would play most of the time. The other thing to remember witth all of them from chosen, vanguard and Wolf guard to warp talons and mutilators is they all have some mean power weapons, which spells doom for most things out of, and some things in, power armour. It makes a mediocre unit in to a melee tornado. Given how brutal it is even being able to ignore armour for the most part its understandable they are either limited, have a high cost or both. The only real exception to this seems to be GKs who get a force weapon and slew of other benefits for a simple 4 point increase. How that works is anyone's guess but they should not be the standard to hold other units to.
Really, defilers got nerfed? I must be reading a different codex because I love what they did to them, 5+ invulnerable save, daemon forge rule, 4HPs and the ability to regenerate a HP each turn. for just +45 points. Really? Then tack on the options it has, the power scourge is well worth the points, the dirge caster is worth the points if you plan to charge with it or anything near it. And even before that, what equivilant did the Space marines have? Am I missing somthing? When did they have a death walker from hell with an ordinance piece in its chest that could have up to 5 fething attacks?
My mistake, that was supposed to be apart of the Land Raider argument, regardless of that fact they aren't worthwhile in melee, they are WS3 and can be downed by krak and melta grenades just as easily (Yes you can take scourge for better melee resistance, but then your hitting near land raider costs), had they gained AV13 they might've gained potential as a melee unit that had it's own unique place, but no they are outclassed by the maulerfiend as it's both cheaper, and does better in melee combat and gets there far faster, the cannon is the only thing that sets it apart as the forgefiend can make a better shooter, and if you want a mixed the helbrute is a far cheaper, and better option. It just isn't worthwhile with the better options in its same slot.
Not worth while in melee? Yeah because 4+ attacks at S8 AP2 minimum with the ability to even the WS or better it with the scourge (on average) mounted on a dreadnought style walker with AN INVULNERABLE SAVE (Really, I play Bjorn, its not his AV13 that saves his metal hide) 4HPs and the ability to regenerate them is terrible in melee. Krak nades need to hit then roll a 6 to do anything, Melta bombs always go last and if you scourge them well enough they shouldn't be too much of an issue. Add to that charging a defiler in unsupported is always going to end in its death, that's just bad tactics. At 230 odd points for my chosen defiler I'd say its worth the points and then some. If it had AV13 then it would be near unstoppable, have an ordinance weapon and be brilliant in melee. Literally the only downside would be the near land raider cost. With that in mind you would never take ANYTHING else be cause it would be the best unit in the slot hands down, even in low point games all you'd need is a defiler and you'd curb stomp everything with one model...Sounds like my khorne lord from 3.5.
Last I checked the Maulerfiend has WS 3 as well, same AV, one less HP and I'm not sure if it can self repair. It had the potential to -D3 As witht he lasher tendrils option right? I'm also fairly sure they affect all models in BTB, friend or foe, so supporting it in melee will be difficult. How many attacks does it get again? Those points aside yes I agree that the Maulerfiend is a great low cost Melee daemon engine, would it out proform a defiler? Well no, the battle cannon is really the trump card that even the forgefiend cant match without coming close to Defiler cost and having 3 gets hot rolls to make, potentially glancing its self to death in one shooting phase. There's a few reasons I removed Bjorns Plasma cannon, the fore mentioned glance rule revision and the fact he can't fire it on overwatch. If I bothered with a Forgefiend I'd probably stick to the dakka version with no ectoplasma, even then I'd sooner use a havoc squad.
Hellbrutes are super fun, I'd roll hellbrutes with scourges along side Defilers stacking and spreading the -D3 WS, its evil. because they are in the elite slot (right?) they can be a nice cheap running mate with the defiler without them tripping over each other. And if everything gets focused on the Defiler then the brutes get to smash it up. If the brutes get targetd because they are easy prey by comparison then the defiler lives longer. All the while the zerkers they are running with are more than likely ignored or picked at with minimal effort. IF they get shot at with a vengeance then the Brutes and Defiler are going to make a mess. The defiler and anything capable of the destruction it is must be killable. If it was not then why would you take anything else? Who would fight an army with even one in it?
I agree the old 150 point one was worthless, bu8t the 195 point one is brutal and sturdy. Heck Roll a warpsmith behind it and get the chance for two HPs regained per turn. Notlike the warpsmith is terrible in close combat. Point of fact with a decent squad they'd be the perfect support infantry unit.
Land raiders are still expensive, there no real supprise there. Terrible for TDA transport, I suppose but the same argument can be made for any land raider in any codex. And I fail to see how thousand sons got worse from the previous codex's variant, they remained mostly the same with a slight reduction in cost due to the sorcerer, at least you don't need to pay for powers any more, and you have access to the Icon. Sure Soul blaze isn't mind bogglingly good but the other 3 cult icons are not much better (baring the slaneesh icon which is significantly more expensive.).
At the very least the space marines have the Crusader Variant, to be fair I would've loved to take bale flamers or Hades Cannon on that thing after hearing about them, as for Thousand Sons the thing of the matter is they are very slightly cheaper, but now you have a 50% chance of getting a worthless power on the chart, in 5th you could take one of three paths to roll on. Also the only worthless icon besides the soul flame icon is the Nurgle Fear Icon, as you must remember that the Khorne one grants Furious Charge and Rerollable charge range (Which is both thematic, and worthwhile) and Feel No Pain (always good). The problem is that unlike nurgle fear the soul flame has no benefit at all to the Thousand Sons, as they shouldn't be firing at low Armour units to begin with.
I will admit a new LR would be nice, but not needed. Its also something they can add later like they did with the storm talon. Which is pretty much the way they are headed. They have a good solid base with 6th ed rules and updating the codices to 6th along with releasing new units and their models with them. Something we disliked with the nid, blood angel and space wolf codices to name a few. We didn't like that they released rules without models, so they took that on and thats why we got them with the codex release this time.
They are refocusing back on the model range, they know its where they really make the money. If they give us a solid rule set and codex then release new models/units with rules after the fact then us older gamers that have extensive army's are going to be inclined to get the new model/unit for our army. Because we are sure as heck not buying many if at all any new models now. Why would we, we already have an army. But a shiney new unit that appeals to us or our play style, a new landraider down the line for instance, we are probably going to buy.
On the icons. I personally would never get the Icon of wrath, furious charge and a flat eroll is well worth the points considering a Command squads banner costs 15 and you get +1 tot he resolution alone. But its not as good as Fearless IMO. Even FnP I'd struggle with over fearless on non cult units. On cult units they are an added expense that reaps a slight bonus. To me the icon of wrath is 5 chain axes I could have taken or a plasma gun. The thousand sons were never great at killing marines in power armour even with the AP3, point of fact I was more inclined to shoot plague marines with two plasma guns over them, they did more damage. However with my guard that AP3 boltgun becomes an issue because it has the S for guard killing and the AP to negate every save I can get. Add soulblaze to the mix and thats just brutal.Same for most other races. Its not to say that inferno bolts are terible against marines, inf act they are definatly better than standard boltguns. But I would never depend on them killing anything more than Tt with a 3+ or worse save.
Also fear and sould blaze are more like added benefits, both cults have increased survivability due to their marks and have some wicked options given to them per inferno bolts and plague knives. Add a cheap sorcerer here and some blight grenades there and you round them out to be an effective unit that is just as good as it use to be but with some extra bits. Then on top of that you can Add an Icon. Khorne are only good in assault, they are best on the first turn of any combat and they have to pay for their special wargear they have no rifles at all and they already have furious charge so all your paying for is a reroll of the charge distance and +1 resolution, pass. Slaneesh needed a USR that would be good at range and in melee, they were a really confused cult before this codex because they had heavy weapons, but they could fleet, but had no major melee options, but they had +1 init which was only really good in assault. Nothing meshed and it made them confusing to play. Giving them FnP allowed them to play at all ranges with some use. Sit back and line troop it with shooting weapons, FNp is awesome for that no one does this better than plague marines in the codex and its good in assault too. They pay though the nose for it but it made slaneesh units competitive witht he other cults.
Well instead of 5 deamon weapons we now have 2 and several other options that are not daemon weapons including tactical options, a sword that almost assures the 'kill the enemy warlord' secondary objective, an AP3 torrent flamethrower, random additional spells. You know, things that are more than just a AP2 beat stick, THATS progress.
To be honest I didn't look but you can't take a doom siren on a Slaneesh HQ anymore? Nothing? I know they have their own mount like everyone else. There is most likely, somthing in the lists of war gear that slaneesh can get exclusivly. if not then valid point.
So one couldn't have exclusive daemon weapons that could've been changed up to become more then AP2 beat sticks? Progress could've changed them at the least to something more different like the maul. Though I did applaud the new artifacts, the problem is they are all very situational, and we could've used more. It just seems so limited in the grand scheme of chaos.
One can get the mount however, and you could never take a doom siren on a HQ, not since 3.5.
I'm not, and never have been, a big slaneeshy fan. Until this codex they were always a non entity, a joke cult outside of daemons.The new artifacts are no different than 3.5 style daemon weapons. I loved the Kai Gun, I dig the daemon forged weapons and I could easily support something slaneesh exclusive, daemon weapon or not. Just out right asking for a beat stick is boring. A flute that has a similar effect to lash would be awesome and slaneshy. A whip style weapon that did any thing from have a ranged profile in addition to a melee profile to being counted as engaged if your more than 2" away from a model in BTB to an entangle ability. A lance weapon with the lance special rule would be a hoot. An aura that has random effects from passification to hyperactivity would fit the bill. She who thirsts ability that makes the character and or unit cause fear in all eldar and grants prefered enemy eldar or something. Seriously its not hard to come up with a few slaneeshy ideas that don't involve a daemon weapon.
I would have been happy if Khorne, or anyone other than the special characters, didn't get a daemon weapon I wouldn't mind. Sure it makes a big difference in assault, where khorn is supposed to excel because we don't get psykers, but not needed. I'd dif the axe if it wasnt a daemon weapon and didn't have the +D6 attacks. The mace too, they are both brutal without the bonus attacks. The flamer is tempting, I might have to remodel my lord to have a flamer weapon of some sort, its evil.
If anything I would have liked to have seen no daemon weapons aside from special characters, bugger off the axe and give us the collar of khorne back. even if it was a 4+ rather than a 2+. Slap slaneesh with something like DEs combat drugs or something and be done with it, I'd rather have none then listen to people complain that the most melee oriented cult gets the only Mark restricted Daemon weapon.
I'm done with this whine fest, good god I've never seen or hear so much complaining within a week ot two of a codex drop, well maybe the last CSM codex. But even then it was obvious that 3.5 was going and never, ever ever ever coming back with good reason. It was almost as bad as GKs is now, except GKs has uber troops AND HQs, not just HQs.
Dark Aposltes imho would not have any affect on xenos. They are speaking in some human language and their knowledge / mannerisms would only translate to the same speciese. They are space marines.
Thus I suggest
At the start of any chaos turn a DA can begin to chant. All units within 6" must take a LD check at -1 for each check they have had to take including this one. If they fail, they lose ATSKNF until the beginning of the next chaos turn.
Obviously units without ATSKNF need not test, as they cannot lose somethign they do not have.
The first test they have to take is Ld-1, the next Ld-2 and the next Ld-3. The longer they listen the more likely they are to lose faith in the emperor.
Add in a 20 point upgrade for a massive megaphone that increases the range to 12" and add a static -1 to the test. so first test -2 second test -3 third test -4 if within 6"
Thus if you invest 300 points in 2 dark apostles you could reliably strip ATSKNF from nilla marines. It would be expensive though, and DA are not the most survivable units in the game.
As a long time Chaos/CSM player (since 2nd Edition baby), there's a lot in this Codex I like and love and just as much that I don't like.
CHAOS BOON TABLE
One of my biggest beefs with the new Codex is the Boon Table. The concept is cool but I have two major complaints and those are directed at Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis. Firstly, Independent Characters (including special characters) should either get to re-roll Spawnhood or simply count it as Unworthy Offering. Its hard to spend points on a Chaos Lord when there's a chance his wargear is going to be worthless if he kills an enemy Character and gets a bad roll (doesn't seem like much of an incentive to me).
As for Dark Apotheosis it should give more benefits than it lists. For example, he should be able to keep any Wargear a Daemon Prince could have and, if he had a Jump Pack, should be gifted Wings instead. Its supposed to be this great honour to become a Daemon Prince yet with how the Boon Table is getting a Dark Apotheosis result can more often then not be a hindering rather than an actual blessing.
MARK OF TZEENTCH
Works pretty much as before...but only a 6+ invul save? Really? Why would I ever want to give my Troops a Mark of Tzeentch for a negligible invulnerable save? A points increase for something that it going to save them less than 17% of the time simply isn't worth it, especially when the points cost is on par with Marks that give Rage + Counter-attack or +1 Initiative, far superior options for the same points cost. This is a simple fix too, just reword it so it gives models without an invulnerable save a 5+ invulnerable save again. At that level I'd be willing to pay the current costs for it.
POSSESSED
I may be a Chaos player but I haaate randomization. You can't rely on it which makes the unit itself unreliable. I'd rather see a return to allowing Possessed units to pick which Mutation they want for a points cost rather than this Russian roulette methodology which makes them tactically unsound.
MUTILATORS
They need to have the Slow and Purposeful rule removed, they simply aren't a good assault unit with it. Also their weapon options are a bit lame, I mean why would you ever take anything but the pair of Chainfists or Lightning Claws? The weapon options should be...
- Thunder Hammer
- Chainfist
- Pair of Lightning Claws
- Pair of Power Axes
- Pair of Power Mauls
This way you can either choose to get the +1 Attack for having two lesser close combat weapons (or a pair of lightning claws) or get the beefiness of a Thunder Hammer or Chainfist. Not sure if this alone would fix this unit, but it would be starting them onto the right track of being useful.
WARP TALONS
These guys simply aren't worth their points costs. Nothing major, just that they are a bit too expensive right now. I'd say drop them down to about 26-28 points per model and give them Attacks 2 and they'd be a bit better and at least a bit more appealing, as right now Raptors are just a far superior choice due to their much more affordable points costs and versatility.
HELBRUTES
Need clarification to their Fire Frenzy crazed result as right now they can Immobilize themselves in close combat. Needs to be reworded so that if the Helbrute is in close combat when it rolls a 1 it is not immobilized.
AHRIMAN
He lost quite a bit of potency since last edition. I'd like to see him be able to have all of the Tzeentch powers by default and then get 4 Powers from the other listed Disciplines. To me he'd be well worth his points cost then.
TYPHUS
He's just not that good anymore and hits his own units now with Destroyer Hive. At the very least they should make it so that Destroyer Hive doesn't effect friendly units with the Mark of Nurgle. He could still use a bit more work than that, but that's just a start to get him on the right track.
FABIUS BILE
He just needs to be reworked. He has very close combat-focused wargear yet his melee weapons are horrible. Also, and this is just me speaking here, but I'd prefer it if he could make more than one unit into Enhanced Warriors, though I do like that they removed all the randomization nonsense from the Enhanced Warriors.
DAEMONIC POSSESSION
This is absolutely horrible wargear for transports and I seriously see no reason to even take it. It reduces the vehicle's BS and has a chance to eat your own units...why exactly? To regenerate Hull Points and to let it ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+ (no longer a guaranteed thing over last edition)? This wargear was definitely not very well thought out. It would be fine if they removed the whole eating your own units bit with It Will Not Die and maybe counting the vehicle as a Daemon for the 5+ invul save (maybe), but the whole eating your units thing just makes this not only a waste of points but, if it was a Rhino, makes the transport even more of a deathtrap then it already was.
Other than those grievances I love the new Codex.
EDIT: Oh and I second what Kain said, sad that we don't get Cult Terminators. :(
Ive played 5 games against the new codex and have had my butt handed back to me in 3 of them. I think the codex is just fine, with the following exception...
The Mauler fiend and the other daemon engine should have been Toughness creatures , not vehicles. Two lucky 6's and that beast is done...It should be more like the Dreadknight.
Imperial LR variants 9+(counting codex and FW)
Chaos LR variants 2; Codex and Protheus variant...
I think its enough to point out that GW hates Chaos, period.
The Few suggestions i could make.
-Don't touch the DP Stats, they are fine, just add EW and be good, maybe adds another movement option then wings, like Deamonic speed, the Dp then moves like cavalry.
-Move Dark Apostle and Warpsmith to Elites, maybe make them 0-3 units?...
-Give a 2+ save option for HQ's.
-Having something a bit extra to replace Psy powers for Khornate characters, like Martial traits like what the GK Brotherhood Champion can do.
-Had gear specific to Dark Apostle to change his role, to make him a Surgeon for khornate players, and other stuffs for the other Gods, each of those options could change the way the Apostle works, while still conserving his basic purpose
-grants Acces to the "Elite->Troops" of Cult Marines with a Deamon prince, after all a DP is the greatest Champion of the dark Gods.
-LIke many others had said, change the way the Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis works for Named Characters, Named Characters could reroll any of those results, other HQ's are affected as normal, but in the case of a Dark Apotheosis they keep their Artifacts,gears and Weapons, he does not keep his bike or termi armor, if he had a jump pack et count has having wings.
-Add a buyable Veteran Abilities to Elite choice such as Chosen and Termies; tank Hunter, Shrouded/Discretion,Acute Sense etc.
-Give the LR as a dedicated transport to Chosen.
- A Lord/Sorceror can take a bodyguard of Chosen/Termies, they count as one HQ choice.
-Give Possesed grenades and bolt pistols, even if they have mutated, there is no reason that their pistols din't fuse with their arms and that they can't shoot it, the Possesed kit as an arm that shoots a fire beam after all...
-For Mutilators i think we should complelty go as far as possible from the "Mutated terminator" concept, and make it something more like a Cyber-deamonic Archoflagelant/Cyber-Gladiator, with a 3+/5++ save, Fleet, Deamon, DS, and their Weapon Morph, also the unit can take up to 5 models.
-Helbrute should have acces to Hades Autocanon, and Deamon Engines in the dex should be able to be dedicated to a Chaos god, the Crazed rule should also have the line"...it also gets a Crazed token if the helbrut does at least 1 casualty this turn..."
-The Chaos reward list should have Collars of Khorne, wich give the Adamentium Will to the wearer +5pts.
-The Melee wargear list should include Axe of Khorne; Power weapon that adds an extra A for each 6 made to hit, and has long has you make 6's 15pts.
-Zerkers should be 2A base and 2 Models in the squad should have the option to buy a Flamer/Melta OR Power Weapons, Eviscerator, the champion can take a Collar of Khorne for +5pts.
-There should be another rhino variant, Open Topped,only weapons option are Combi-bolter, for 45pts base cost.
-Addition of Dreadclaws, has they are in the IA book, they are good, only changing it as a dedicated transport and not has a FA choice.
-Chaos Bikers could be able to exchange their bikes to a deamonic steed of the approriate Mark/God relation for an appropriate cost.
-Heldrakes should have 2 Hades cannon base, their cost could be upped to 185-190pts base, and they could buy the Baleflamer extra for +15pts.
-LR weapons variants; Hades Autocanon sponsons, Ectoplasma Sponsons,2 Reaper Autocanons in exchange of the TL Heavy Bolters and an option for Frag nades on it like the Crusader.
-Maulerfiend should have WS4 and Rampage, when taking the Mecaflagellum option he counts has having Def and Off nades.
-Defiler cost should be revised to 180pts, and he could exchange all his weapons bare the battle canon for extra CCW for free, and take a Power scourge for +10pts.
The Dedication to the Gods for Deamon Engines could be;
Khorne- The deamon Engine gets Rampage, if the Deamon Engine allready has Rampage he Gets Armorbane rule, if an Heldrake is dedicated to Khorne he makes 1D6+1 Vector Strikes.
Tzeentch-the Deamon Engine rethrow failed to hits of 1.
Nurgle-the Deamon Engine rethrow his It will not die test.
Slaanesh-...don't really know what to do with this one..., reroll charge distance?, count has having Def and OFF nades? or simply +1I?, in the case of the Heldrake Aerial Acrobat?
Also Blades of Destruction should give some extra for Walkers, like +1D6 Hammer of Wrath when assaulting or rethrow of ONE To HIt OR To Wound/Pen Dice per combat turn.
AHRIMAN
He lost quite a bit of potency since last edition. I'd like to see him be able to have all of the Tzeentch powers by default and then get 4 Powers from the other listed Disciplines. To me he'd be well worth his points cost then.
DIsagree. He is better.
Tzeentch vs. other disciplines is just something we have to deal with. Since you're a long-time CSM player, you'll notice how all of his rules make him similar to his Codex: Chaos incarnation.... minus the toughness 5 and all that.
I am quite happy with him now. He doesn't need any changes..
AHRIMAN
He lost quite a bit of potency since last edition. I'd like to see him be able to have all of the Tzeentch powers by default and then get 4 Powers from the other listed Disciplines. To me he'd be well worth his points cost then.
DIsagree. He is better.
Tzeentch vs. other disciplines is just something we have to deal with. Since you're a long-time CSM player, you'll notice how all of his rules make him similar to his Codex: Chaos incarnation.... minus the toughness 5 and all that.
I am quite happy with him now. He doesn't need any changes..
Sorry, I simply don't agree with you. On par or worse than his previous incarnations? Debatable. Better? Most certainly not. The powers he had access to before were far better and he had more of them, now he's pretty much been reduced to only being used in Assault armies as a Doombolt Spammer. Being reduced down to being forced to a single role in an army is not my idea of "better". If he had access to Divination then I'd have to agree with you that he'd be better than previous incarnation, but with the powers he has access to he's simply on-par with, if not worse, and not an overly fantastic unit unless you plan on using an Assault-heavy army.
I wrote this codex because I was disenfranchised with the Khornate portion of the 6th edition book. Brb losing +1 attack all of the time, everything's still the same price. Only use for Khorne now is an HQ with the Axe of Blinding Fury, feelsbadman
Ahriman suffers from having to roll for his powers. Currently playing with psykers at all means hoping you get abilities that are useful.
Personally i think rolling at the beggining of a game for psyker powers is just stupid. Especially since csm is now only able to randomly generate while the oppossition can take any codex crap they want..
Proposed rule: ability to buy out a psyker power if you dont want to waste points on rolling for it.
I like how rolling for powers means that you should understand how different combinations work.. That way you have a sense of accomplishment when you make a power set do well during a game.
I hear ya brom, At first i thought rolling was kind of fun, and thoought the same exact way, lets see how i can make this work.... but after my 3rd game, i was already getting annoyed at the thoughts of, "damn i could have had this!" " i would of taken this" or "didnt i have this ____ no wait that was last game." ... maybe i was just frustrated at a bad game or maybe its just the dark gods messing with me though.
I do have to agree that power set has a lot of influence on how the game might go.. I do get spoiled with Invisibility, especially on Aspiring Sorcerers before the new book..
Imperial LR variants 9+(counting codex and FW)
Chaos LR variants 2; Codex and Protheus variant...
I think its enough to point out that GW hates Chaos, period.
The Few suggestions i could make.
-Don't touch the DP Stats, they are fine, just add EW and be good, maybe adds another movement option then wings, like Deamonic speed, the Dp then moves like cavalry.
-Move Dark Apostle and Warpsmith to Elites, maybe make them 0-3 units?...
-Give a 2+ save option for HQ's.
-Having something a bit extra to replace Psy powers for Khornate characters, like Martial traits like what the GK Brotherhood Champion can do.
-Had gear specific to Dark Apostle to change his role, to make him a Surgeon for khornate players, and other stuffs for the other Gods, each of those options could change the way the Apostle works, while still conserving his basic purpose
-grants Acces to the "Elite->Troops" of Cult Marines with a Deamon prince, after all a DP is the greatest Champion of the dark Gods.
-LIke many others had said, change the way the Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis works for Named Characters, Named Characters could reroll any of those results, other HQ's are affected as normal, but in the case of a Dark Apotheosis they keep their Artifacts,gears and Weapons, he does not keep his bike or termi armor, if he had a jump pack et count has having wings.
-Add a buyable Veteran Abilities to Elite choice such as Chosen and Termies; tank Hunter, Shrouded/Discretion,Acute Sense etc.
-Give the LR as a dedicated transport to Chosen.
- A Lord/Sorceror can take a bodyguard of Chosen/Termies, they count as one HQ choice.
-Give Possesed grenades and bolt pistols, even if they have mutated, there is no reason that their pistols din't fuse with their arms and that they can't shoot it, the Possesed kit as an arm that shoots a fire beam after all...
-For Mutilators i think we should complelty go as far as possible from the "Mutated terminator" concept, and make it something more like a Cyber-deamonic Archoflagelant/Cyber-Gladiator, with a 3+/5++ save, Fleet, Deamon, DS, and their Weapon Morph, also the unit can take up to 5 models.
-Helbrute should have acces to Hades Autocanon, and Deamon Engines in the dex should be able to be dedicated to a Chaos god, the Crazed rule should also have the line"...it also gets a Crazed token if the helbrut does at least 1 casualty this turn..."
-The Chaos reward list should have Collars of Khorne, wich give the Adamentium Will to the wearer +5pts.
-The Melee wargear list should include Axe of Khorne; Power weapon that adds an extra A for each 6 made to hit, and has long has you make 6's 15pts.
-Zerkers should be 2A base and 2 Models in the squad should have the option to buy a Flamer/Melta OR Power Weapons, Eviscerator, the champion can take a Collar of Khorne for +5pts.
-There should be another rhino variant, Open Topped,only weapons option are Combi-bolter, for 45pts base cost.
-Addition of Dreadclaws, has they are in the IA book, they are good, only changing it as a dedicated transport and not has a FA choice.
-Chaos Bikers could be able to exchange their bikes to a deamonic steed of the approriate Mark/God relation for an appropriate cost.
-Heldrakes should have 2 Hades cannon base, their cost could be upped to 185-190pts base, and they could buy the Baleflamer extra for +15pts.
-LR weapons variants; Hades Autocanon sponsons, Ectoplasma Sponsons,2 Reaper Autocanons in exchange of the TL Heavy Bolters and an option for Frag nades on it like the Crusader.
-Maulerfiend should have WS4 and Rampage, when taking the Mecaflagellum option he counts has having Def and Off nades.
-Defiler cost should be revised to 180pts, and he could exchange all his weapons bare the battle canon for extra CCW for free, and take a Power scourge for +10pts.
The Dedication to the Gods for Deamon Engines could be;
Khorne- The deamon Engine gets Rampage, if the Deamon Engine allready has Rampage he Gets Armorbane rule, if an Heldrake is dedicated to Khorne he makes 1D6+1 Vector Strikes.
Tzeentch-the Deamon Engine rethrow failed to hits of 1.
Nurgle-the Deamon Engine rethrow his It will not die test.
Slaanesh-...don't really know what to do with this one..., reroll charge distance?, count has having Def and OFF nades? or simply +1I?, in the case of the Heldrake Aerial Acrobat?
Also Blades of Destruction should give some extra for Walkers, like +1D6 Hammer of Wrath when assaulting or rethrow of ONE To HIt OR To Wound/Pen Dice per combat turn.
-I'd rather give it 6T and keep it vulnerable to other ID attacks, would put it on par with other MCs. Other than that its fine.
-DA and Warpsmith are fine where they are, if anything I'd dig seeing the DA get a TDA option, not fussed besides.
-They already do, its called Terminator armour (or TDA). While I'd dig getting 'Chaos Armour' back its really not nessasary. I see this becoming standard for MEQ, My guess is they will lose artificer armour.
-We (khorne) get a killer daemon weapon and more USRs than the other cults, its enough. Not to mention we are usually cheaper too. If anything Id like a collar of khorne option for a 4+ Deny the witch. 10-15 points sorted.
-If anything khornate armys would use more DAs considering the amount of challenges we get ourselves into. No need to repurposing him. If you want a chirigeon then ask for one, Id like a cheap 'medic' with a champion statline and bought 0-3 in the HQ or elite section. Maximum of only 3 per detachment and don't count them toward the Force organisation.
-Yeah no, I like the strict limitation on cult unlocks. Make you choose rather than go with the 'better' option.
-Spawnhood is one of only two unwanted effects and the only negative effect, discounting daemonhood on some characters. Heck I was expecting more, things like tenticles and second heads that did bonuses and negatives. It works the way it is, very chaos. If anything, just let the DP keep what a DP can buy and reroll spawn and daemon results for unique characters, or just count them as nothing.
-Buyable veteran abilitys are terrible, there was one good option in 3.5 and raptors HAD to take furious charge to be decent. Terrible idea is terrible. They get enough USR options with marks and icons. And we can give them Veterans of the long war, which is a veteran ability coupled with the beter statline and options.
-They should have had chosen and terminators under one heading like wolf guard. Im a bit disapointed witht hat but I'll live. Then it would have made sense giving them access to a LR, but as they stand I can see why they didn't, its better balance limiting LR availability, much like limiting 2+ armour and such.
-Just buy the elite variation, works the same, not like you don't get a second FOC at 2000 points anyway, which would be around the points Id consider more than 3 elite squads.
-Possessed are fine, they dont need a ranged attack. As for the grenades, direct you complaints to tyranid players, Im sure they will be more than willing to hear how one of your assault units cant get grenades.
-Mutilators just need rampage and they'd be set. It works for them because they are almost always outnumbered in assaults.
-Hellbrutes with a hades would rule, I'd even like twin hades option. Its evil and fun. The rest not so much, doesnt need dedication or daemon engine because vehicvles dont need to be dedicated and hellbrutes are not warpforged like the actual daemon engines. The crazed rules work fine, no need for change.
-5 point 5+ deny the witch in the form of a collar of khorne, sure. I'd pay that. But only for the champion/HQs etc. that way if they die then the 5+ is lost. Would like a 4+ on khorn units more but I'm not complaining about a 5+. Wolf tail talismans work pretty damn well IMO.
-No, just no. I can hardly stand furiosos and their blood talons. The chain axe is enough. Cheap AP4 weapon for the win.
-I like the Rage/counterattack better. Zerkers are cheaper because its situational and they should only be furious on the first round. After that the whole assault settles in.ITs not like they dont have WS5 still, which still puts them head and shoulders above most MEQs in melee.
-Dreadclaws are in the IA book as you said. If you want one get it that way. They are a FA choice because they are not the same as drop pods. They can do more than just drop into the battlefield. I like em the way they are.
-Mhmm, that would be awesome. I like that idea alot actually. the obvious thing to do would be buy mark then buy steed dependant on what mark you have. would be cool.
-2 HACs plus a bale flamer on a vector stiking flyer? no thanks.
-Hades ACLR for the win. I like the idea of adding more LR options, but go with something unique and chaos rather than copy paste marines.
-Nah, the reduced WS is part of being a Daemon engine, rampage isnt that nessasary because then it would not need to be supported like it does now. Teir would be no need to have other units in assault with it thus canceling out the drawback of the lasher tendrils.
-With all the defiler got in this codex Im suprised it does not cost more. The scourge is too good to reduce to 10 points, it can make most HQs equal WS with the defiler then pound them with S10 AP2 death from the Powerfists.
-Dedication of vehicles is unessasary. I'm quite glad they got rid of it.
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wearelegion wrote: Ahriman suffers from having to roll for his powers. Currently playing with psykers at all means hoping you get abilities that are useful.
Personally i think rolling at the beggining of a game for psyker powers is just stupid. Especially since csm is now only able to randomly generate while the oppossition can take any codex crap they want..
Proposed rule: ability to buy out a psyker power if you dont want to waste points on rolling for it.
Thats the way ALL psykers seem to be going. Ahriman rules in 6th. Access to a plethora of powers, is now mastery level 4 and can dish out upto four wichfire attacks per turn. yeah no, hes much better.
Again, it seems to be the way they are headed, it wont be long before we are all rolling on tables. Its a cool mechanic because theres only one power in each dicipline you can bank on getting, the primaris power. Makes it so you can't build an army around psychic powers like most wolf players do now, that is stupid.
This is not the place for me to argue with your opinion of Ahriman, but I play a tiny violin for anyone thinking that he "got reduced"
Pretty sure I wasn't arguing my opinion, I just said that I didn't agree with your statement. You shared your opinion and disagreed and I simply stated that I don't agree with what you said, it's not like I said "you're wrong" or anything. How is you disagreeing with me alright and me disagreeing with what you wrote back not alright? Also, if I came off as being argumentative or if I gave off the impression that I was saying "you were wrong" then I do apologize, that was not my intent.
With that said, however, I will admit that he's not the worst special character in the book by any means and is on par with most of them (bar Lucius, the guy is pure awesome in the new Codex), if anything Fabius and Typhus got the short end of the stick in this Codex.
Basically, Wearelegion summed up my thoughts exactly on why I believe Ahriman suffers in the new addition (random chance on psychic powers, not having access to what is so far the best Discipline in the game (Divination), and most of the Tzeentch powers being only "alright"). I find it kind of curious why he can't have Divination, the very description given for Divination just screams followers of Tzeentch to me.
Him (or any new Psykers for that matter) being able to purchase powers would definitely make him much better, though I'd have to say either have that as an option or give him Divination as having access to both would just be overkill.
I don't believe I've seen this yet, but I'm surprised that so few are talking about it.
There is effectively 1x Daemon Weapon in the Codex: The Black Mace.
I'm sorry, but that is just so freaking lame. Why in the world did they get rid of the daemon weapons for each mark? Yes, there's the Axe of Blind Fury but that's restricted to Khorne
I was really, really disappointed to see that.
Similarly, as others have mentioned, I would have *liked* to have seen Mark Specific unit upgrades or choices. I'm glad that cult lists can be made again, but once you leave the troop slot I think there is something to be desired in terms of other choices/options to fit with fluff/feel. For example, perhaps marked predators, Predators w/ MoS could have Fast added to their unit type. MoN +1 to all AV or one side. Tzneetch = 5++ save or +1 to INV save. MoK could add -1 LD to Tank shocks or D3 S6 hits.
While I liked the new units they added, and some of the rules, it really did feel that this book could have been released back in 5e as it was still too close to its predecessor. As a whole, I was extremely underwhelmed by the armory and wargear list.
On the other side of the coin however, I really, really love the Boon table and the whole concept behind it. It's in part why I'm so disappointed in the lack of daemon weapons as options. The whole, always issue challenges, isn't a bad thing IMO. It limits the character from being killed via en masse attacks and allows a different level of customization. I would have liked to have seen Dark Apostles or Warpsmiths either moved to Elite slots (via an option) or not take an HQ slot. Yes at 2k it's moot, but I'm stil a little hung up on old school lists.
I also felt that the changes to possessed and spawn in general were great and much appreciated.
Marik Law wrote: if anything Fabius and Typhus got the short end of the stick in this Codex.
I wonder how many have actually given Bile a chance? He essentially makes one unit into better Possessed. People complain about how useless Possessed are, but if you could give Possessed grenades, melta guns, melee weapon upgrades, and pistols, you'd say they were fantastic! He's a tax, but if you do it to a 20 man unit, you are only paying 8 PPM, keeping you 5 PPM cheaper than Possessed. I plan on using my Possessed models as an enhanced CSM squad from now on, and throwing a couple Melta Guns in there. Then you put Fabius with another unit to give you two hardy Fearless squads.
Typhus does feel like a bit of a one-trick pony. Beyond allowing zombies, I don't really see what he brings. I suppose having access to the Nurgle powers while also giving Plague Marines as troops is nice, as normally that would require two HQs.
As for everything else in the thread, I really haven't seen too many ideas that I'd be excited about. A lot of it is just too much. T6/EW Daemon Princes who can ALSO benefit from the Mark (i.e. T7 Princes)? Chosen with Terminator armor... (why not just use Terminators?) More fiddly Thousand Sons rules... Really, all I want to see is something that doesn't make me start my list-building with 2-3 Havocs, 2 Heldrakes, then fill the points with Troops and pick an HQ with either Spawn or Bikes for a bodyguard. List building for CSM has become more boring for me, because of how cheap and effective Havocs have become. Maybe that's a failing of the other Heavy Support though.
I find a lot of this very interesting. It seems like a lot of what people are saying is that they don't like the Direciton GW is taking in general.
Wanting EW as a purchasable upgrade or on the DP is the opposite of GWs current direction in pretty much every book. Starting At the Beginning of 5th Ed. I'm pretty sure the EW count is as follows
Space Marines have 2 EW Characters
Space Wolves have 1 (2 if you count lone wolves) + purchasable upgrade for 1 character in the army.
Nids have 0
Blood angels have 2? (is Dante eternal anymore, if not it is just sanguinar)
Sisters have 0
Grey Knights have 1
Dark Eldar have 1 (I think)
Necrons have 1(I think might be 0)
and CSM have 1.
Seems par for the course
Daemon Prince Point upgrade- every other FMC or even jump MC at this point costs upwards of 200 points (if you want good options.) Offensively (in CC)the DP is better than almost all of these choices. FMCs are very easy to hide on the table, and get into CC. I think the points on this guy are fairly balanced. Only thing I would have liked is to have the marks for the DP be the same as they are for everything else.
Breng77 wrote: I find a lot of this very interesting. It seems like a lot of what people are saying is that they don't like the Direciton GW is taking in general.
That's a really interesting point. I will say that from the majority of the units they added, and the addition of the Boon list (a fundamental codex change) I really like the general direction. If I conveyed otherwise that's a failing on my part. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but this codex just feels... "light" to me. From a pure fluff angle, Chaos is supposed to be the greatest foe to the Imperium. From that standpoint the Imperium has Codex: Space Marines, which covers perhaps the largest chapter Ultramarines, while adding in Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Raven Guard, and Salamanders. If it stopped there, I would say the recent Chaos codex was a success. As it stands however, there is also Codex:Space Wolves, Codex; Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex:Black Templars. Suffice it to say, the majority of units across those codex are roughly 80% similar. Still, those few unique units across 5x books make up almost twice as many options. Yes there is Codex Chaos Daemons, but again, there is still a significant disproportion between the two sides.
I don't necessarily want the options to be equal, but I definitely would have liked to see the gap a little narrower.
Similarly, it's like the changes for IG from 3e to 5e. They lost some of the customization to the army, but as a whole I feel that book was incredibly successful (even if Chimeras and Valks/Vens are under costed). The concepts they seemingly focused on for IG are:
boots/bodies on the ground
&
Tanks, tanks, tanks
I honestly feel that the Boon table was as awesome a change as the Doctrines to Orders. The chance of turning a champion into a daemon prince?!? Come on. That's awesome. I'm not sure if everyone realizes this, but the Boon trigger fires off of Shooting and Psychic abilities as well. Where I do feel that they dropped the ball was establishing a big part of what makes Chaos so appealing and that's the customization for the different cults. That is also represented/exemplified in the Wargear list.
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Brometheus wrote: I am disappoint as well, paidinfull but I have an example that I am using as a solution.
Sorcerer HQs suck in close combat... So trade that pistol out for the Burning Brand.
I've got a dude with the Staff from the plastic Warriors of Chaos sorcerer lord, and that makes a perfect "Burning Brand + Force Stave" combination.
Boom, custom "demon weapon" with Tzeentch flavR.
Cool idea, but I do like Vlad's proposal more.
I liked the D6 Doombolt shots from the last book. Wasn't great, but was really fluffy.
To be fair, a 2+/3++ Sorcerer is 25pts cheaper than its loyalist counterpart. Between the Boon table and being able to add an additional mastery level to be at the same points cost, I'd say they are definitely better than their loyalist counter part.
3 or 4 attacks at S6 > aren't crazy, but the 2+/3++ definitely does the trick
Drain Fate: Once per game at the beginning of the wielder's shooting phase, you may choose to Drain Fate. All psykers on the table (friend and foe!) immediately lose their Warp Charge points. The wielder of the Staff of Fate receives a Fate Point for each Warp Charge point drained, which he can use as a re-roll for any dice he (and only he) rolls for the rest of the game. Remember that you cannot re-roll a re-roll.
Breng77 wrote: I find a lot of this very interesting. It seems like a lot of what people are saying is that they don't like the Direciton GW is taking in general.
That's a really interesting point. I will say that from the majority of the units they added, and the addition of the Boon list (a fundamental codex change) I really like the general direction. If I conveyed otherwise that's a failing on my part. Perhaps my expectations were too high, but this codex just feels... "light" to me. From a pure fluff angle, Chaos is supposed to be the greatest foe to the Imperium. From that standpoint the Imperium has Codex: Space Marines, which covers perhaps the largest chapter Ultramarines, while adding in Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Raven Guard, and Salamanders. If it stopped there, I would say the recent Chaos codex was a success. As it stands however, there is also Codex:Space Wolves, Codex; Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Grey Knights, Codex:Black Templars. Suffice it to say, the majority of units across those codex are roughly 80% similar. Still, those few unique units across 5x books make up almost twice as many options. Yes there is Codex Chaos Daemons, but again, there is still a significant disproportion between the two sides.
I don't necessarily want the options to be equal, but I definitely would have liked to see the gap a little narrower.
Similarly, it's like the changes for IG from 3e to 5e. They lost some of the customization to the army, but as a whole I feel that book was incredibly successful (even if Chimeras and Valks/Vens are under costed). The concepts they seemingly focused on for IG are:
boots/bodies on the ground
&
Tanks, tanks, tanks
I honestly feel that the Boon table was as awesome a change as the Doctrines to Orders. The chance of turning a champion into a daemon prince?!? Come on. That's awesome. I'm not sure if everyone realizes this, but the Boon trigger fires off of Shooting and Psychic abilities as well. Where I do feel that they dropped the ball was establishing a big part of what makes Chaos so appealing and that's the customization for the different cults. That is also represented/exemplified in the Wargear list.
I largely agree, I have thought for a while that there should be fewer imperial marine books (6th has lessened this somewhat because I am seeing more variety in armies.), I think 40k has too many armies right now and it is one of the reasons we don't see updates to books for so long.
I largely agree, I have thought for a while that there should be fewer imperial marine books (6th has lessened this somewhat because I am seeing more variety in armies.), I think 40k has too many armies right now and it is one of the reasons we don't see updates to books for so long.
No doubt. I don't think they need to release any new armies for sure. For the most part they could lump all of the loyalist marine books into one, but it would require a significant change of philosophy. They're already shifting towards better support for their IP as we're seeing more FAQ releases as well as unit rules in White Dwarf, but selling the codex is also a part of their business model.
Thanks for the comments guys! Personally I would've liked Daemon Weapons to be more customizable. This is how I did them in the Legions of Khorne codex. Note of course that the Daemon weapon Attributes are more "Khorne"-esque and that I would include some different attributes in an all-rounder Chaos Space Marine codex. For example I'd have a Tzeentchian attribute that would also make the weapon a Force Weapon.
Daemon Weapons A Daemon Weapon begins in one of the following power weapon forms: Axe, Lance, Maul, or Sword. All Daemon Weapons have the Daemon Weapon special rule: At the beginning of the Fight Sub-Phase, roll a D6. On a 1 the daemon rebels and the model takes a wound with no Armor saves allowed, and is WS1 until the end of the phase. Regardless of the roll, the model gains that many additional attacks until the end of the phase.
Daemon Weapon Attributes: In addition to the Daemon Weapon Special Rule, all Daemon Weapons have 2 attributes chosen from the list below. An attribute may only be chosen once. 1. Savagery: The model rolls 2D6 for its attacks instead D6 for its Daemon Weapon and chooses the highest. If double 1's are rolled, the model directs all of its attacks against itself if in a challenge or alone, or against the nearest friendly unit within 3” in close combat. 2. Shrieking: The model causes Fear, all LD tests from Fear are taken on 3d6 taking the 2 highest. 3. Aura: +1 to the wielder's Invulnerable save 4. Hacking: This model always hits on a 2+ in close combat 5. Warp Time: The model strikes at one higher initiative step than normal, after modifiers (to a maximum of Initative Step 10) 6. Piercing: Subtract 1 from the weapon's AP 7. Strong: +1 Strength 8. Devastator: All unsaved wounds are multiplied into D3 wounds
The Proper Terminology is as follows:
Daemon Axe (Aura, Warp Time)- This is a Power Axe with the Aura (+1 invul save) and Warp Time (+1 initiative step) and Daemon Weapon special rules.
Then for something like Drachn'yen, you could have a Daemon Sword with the Piercing and Strong Attributes. Since it's such a powerful weapon in the fluff, I'd probably also give it the Devastator attribute.
I like this because then you can have all different types of Daemon Weapons: swords, axes, hell even a Daemonic lance! That's just cool.
Marik Law wrote: if anything Fabius and Typhus got the short end of the stick in this Codex.
I wonder how many have actually given Bile a chance? He essentially makes one unit into better Possessed. People complain about how useless Possessed are, but if you could give Possessed grenades, melta guns, melee weapon upgrades, and pistols, you'd say they were fantastic! He's a tax, but if you do it to a 20 man unit, you are only paying 8 PPM, keeping you 5 PPM cheaper than Possessed. I plan on using my Possessed models as an enhanced CSM squad from now on, and throwing a couple Melta Guns in there. Then you put Fabius with another unit to give you two hardy Fearless squads.
If you read my post on the previous page I go into more detail about why Fabius is so bad.
I make it clear that the Enhanced Warriors are pretty much the only thing going for him, but as for Fabius himself he simply isn't that good and really isn't worth his points cost or the spot on the Force Organization he takes up. Sure his CCW attacks cause Instant Death, but he gets no bonus to his Strength and can't ignore any type of armour, meaning against the most common enemy type in the game (Marines) the weapon is going to be virtually useless and, 9 times out of 10, he's going to be killed before he ever gets a chance to Instant Death anything important (like a Character). Had they treated the Rod of Torment as a Power Maul (S +2, AP 4) he would have been much better, sure he still wouldn't ignore Marine armour but he'd still be getting the benefit of +2 Strength and Concussive, making him at least a viable choice.
Some ideas to make Fabius better...
- Make the Rod of Torment S +2, AP 4, Melee, Concussive, Instant Death
- Allow one CSM unit to be upgraded to Enhanced Warriors for free (as per normal) and allow any other CSM unit to be upgraded to Enhanced Warriors for an additional points cost.
While these changes wouldn't make him a beast like Abaddon or Lucius they would at least bring him on par with the rest of the named character (i.e. usable).
-You're right that I did not read your post on the previous page. I was late to the thread, and much of the first couple pages were complaints back and forth regarding the amount of time we've had access to the codex, the direction of GW, etc. I skipped ahead until I found more discussion about what makes things bad, rather than whether we can call things bad at this point. Unfortunately some legitimate posts (such as yours about Bile) were skipped over as well, and for that I apologize.
-I also was not necessarily disagreeing with your statement that Fabius is one of the worst in the codex. I simply wanted to comment that I believe hardly anyone has bothered to try him. On paper, he really is pretty horrible, especially as a combat character. I really do see him simply as a tax with the added benefit of confering Fearless to another squad (backline Cultists, for instance). Not the best use of an HQ for sure, but I hope to some day have an opportunity to try him out on the table instead of reading about him and convincing myself he isn't any good.
Some of the stuff on the first page, admittedly when I read it earlier this week, seemed pretty nuts and slapdash.
I think Fabulous Bill is about as good as we've ever seen him. Think of him as a force multiplier that takes your mandatory HQ slot and they managed to tack on a decent character anyway. 6/7 str 5 instant death attacks tend to make their way past an armor save eventually and the fleshbane machine gun and FNP aren't bad either. Two instances of fearless and one +1 str is a pretty big deal when your space marines cost 13 points. You're buying some dumb HQ anyway right?
I was a little disappointed with the book but I want to give it a chance. It looks pretty cool, though it wasn't what I'm used to and I was expecting a different character from it.
I like the unlocking cult troops mechanic, seems reasonable to me. I can see things like iron warriors and alpha legion having a home in WD or IA fluff releases. Not too bothered.
I was a little miffed, however with how often the elite troops you are trying to unlock, seem really unexciting. Also how heavily the book punishes you for taking it's only real transport, the rhino.
I'd be happier if tzeench powers were a little less bad. Something was done about the prince (though I can understand if GW wants to push for MC's to get more expensive, it's a dumb move but they are some of the only really tough and fast contesting as well as AP2@I) and for cult troops to either get better, or all be scoring all the time.
I just feel bad for the prince is all. Them and berserkers and thousand sons. At the prince's cost you could make the +3 for free or add in IW. I'd also find a way to incorporate the mark too maybe as an option but this is getting too deep for me.
Berserkers - Not sure if they should come with fleet. Might be necessary in this world of poor rhino rushing and poor chaos transports. I'd reduce the cost of the plasma pistol upgrade and have them able to use those upgrade slots for those or power weapons or fists. There, you've got yourself a really okay unit right there.
Really wish obliterators were fearless again too. Don't rightly understand it. Maybe the fluff was changed.
Anyway I think this is a little dumb, but hell I've been thinking about it too.
Berserkers - Not sure if they should come with fleet. Might be necessary in this world of poor rhino rushing and poor chaos transports. I'd reduce the cost of the plasma pistol upgrade and have them able to use those upgrade slots for those or power weapons or fists. There, you've got yourself a really okay unit right there.
From a tabletop point of view, I actually like the oblits not being Fearless. They can Go to Ground now, and in ruins that's a 2+ cover save. The LD8, on the other hand, it,,,mind-boggling.
But yeah, Berserkers and cult troops in general are where this book's laziness really shines through. No expanded special weapons options, no new transport options, no psyker defense for being Khorne...just an option for chainaxes, removing an attack (extra attacks are for Vanguard Vets and Death Company) and adding two rules situationally bringing it back, resulting in a net loss. Otherwise, um...plasma pistols! Everyone loves them, right? When people think Khorne, plasma is the first thing that comes to mind, by gum!
I'd have been content with just 1 additional page with legion specific rules. I'd been REALLY happy if they kicked out Huron and perhaps Bile. I'd have been ecstatic if Honsou (at the least) was brought in as a special character. And I'd have sung glory glory hallelujah in the buff upon the Lincoln Memorial if Abaddon's mile high top knot was retconned.
We have people complaing here that their new shiny codex isn't good enough. We have people complaining on the DA rumor thread that Matt Ward might be writting the new DA codex and they don't want it to be overpowered. People will always find something to complain about.
If Fabius give the squad he's attach to FNP (5+), he might actually be worth using!
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dracosz wrote: I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.
Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.
Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.
They dont want a bunch of AP2 weapons that strike at Initiative, so they make it a special character privilage. I mean, how many non MC AP2 weapons strikes on initiative are there on none special character models? Incubi glaive is the only one I can think of.
Jarl Marius wrote:realy? is this like serious?
well wont everyone want their to make [insert random codex] overpowered
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:We have people complaing here that their new shiny codex isn't good enough. We have people complaining on the DA rumor thread that Matt Ward might be writting the new DA codex and they don't want it to be overpowered. People will always find something to complain about.
So people aren't allowed to have grievances with a Codex? Well then I guess this entire forum is useless then huh?
In all seriousness though, why does it being "new" make it taboo to raise issues about it and want to better it or make such a thing "complaining?"
The only thing I was disheartened on really was that cultists can't take icons. That would be nice. I would most definitely run six full squads of cultists with Icon of vengeance.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: We have people complaing here that their new shiny codex isn't good enough. We have people complaining on the DA rumor thread that Matt Ward might be writting the new DA codex and they don't want it to be overpowered. People will always find something to complain about.
The fact that some of those complains may be more grounded in fact than others is, of course, completelly irrelevant!
I'd be quite glad with the latest codex if it had been accompanied by a sizable re-working of ALL army books: Vendettas at 165 points each, Long Fangs costing 22 points a piece before picking weapons, Eldar units in general given sane costs, and much more. Since no such thing happened or will happen, each mediocre new book just further tilts the game.
And on a personal note, I had both armies I play, melee Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines, have their lists voided this year. I'll complain even after I eBay my stuff, all to your reading pleasure.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: We have people complaing here that their new shiny codex isn't good enough. We have people complaining on the DA rumor thread that Matt Ward might be writting the new DA codex and they don't want it to be overpowered. People will always find something to complain about.
The fact that some of those complains may be more grounded in fact than others is, of course, completelly irrelevant!
I'd be quite glad with the latest codex if it had been accompanied by a sizable re-working of ALL army books: Vendettas at 165 points each, Long Fangs costing 22 points a piece before picking weapons, Eldar units in general given sane costs, and much more. Since no such thing happened or will happen, each mediocre new book just further tilts the game.
And on a personal note, I had both armies I play, melee Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines, have their lists voided this year. I'll complain even after I eBay my stuff, all to your reading pleasure.
If it makes you feel any better long fangs will likely lose fire control for split fire and lose being able to have WG attached to it. Really they don't need WG, they have pack leaders anyway. Which should mitigate some of the rage against them. I personally avoid over using Long fangs and stay right away from missile spam, I mean las cannons are cheap enough and fun throw at hard targets while the heavy bolters with it suppress infantry, but thats just me I guess. I'd dig autocannons for em, but undoubtably someone will complain about it so meh. And if the chaos dex is anything to go by, Long fangs with missile launchers who take flakk missiles will cost more than las cannons, gold.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: We have people complaing here that their new shiny codex isn't good enough. We have people complaining on the DA rumor thread that Matt Ward might be writting the new DA codex and they don't want it to be overpowered. People will always find something to complain about.
The fact that some of those complains may be more grounded in fact than others is, of course, completelly irrelevant!
I'd be quite glad with the latest codex if it had been accompanied by a sizable re-working of ALL army books: Vendettas at 165 points each, Long Fangs costing 22 points a piece before picking weapons, Eldar units in general given sane costs, and much more. Since no such thing happened or will happen, each mediocre new book just further tilts the game.
And on a personal note, I had both armies I play, melee Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines, have their lists voided this year. I'll complain even after I eBay my stuff, all to your reading pleasure.
If it makes you feel any better long fangs will likely lose fire control for split fire and lose being able to have WG attached to it. Really they don't need WG, they have pack leaders anyway. Which should mitigate some of the rage against them. I personally avoid over using Long fangs and stay right away from missile spam, I mean las cannons are cheap enough and fun throw at hard targets while the heavy bolters with it suppress infantry, but thats just me I guess. I'd dig autocannons for em, but undoubtably someone will complain about it so meh. And if the chaos dex is anything to go by, Long fangs with missile launchers who take flakk missiles will cost more than las cannons, gold.
Long fangs have yet to lose it in any manner or way, not to mention being a 5th dex means they won't be updated for sometime, so they'll still be the same a few years from now.
I don't understand why everyone is so down on fabulous bill.
He has a million attacks that instant kill, someone is going to fail a save eventually! He also has a fleshbane machine gun and FNP.
Besides all that, he buffs one squad with 2 serious bonuses (given that they are already very low pricepoint marines) aaaaaaand he stiffens a second squad just by hanging out with them.
Can you imagine how expensive he'd have to be be to give a squad FNP on top of that?
It's a really neat codex! There are some flavor things that could probably have been handled better. And being one of those "nuanced codexes" that tries to walk fine lines with it's selection of units and configurations it feels like there are some areas where configurations have ways of making other sort of redundant seemingly unintentionally, I can see eventually people wanting to tackle that sort of idea for their favourite unit or in time knowing how others should be balanced to be playable, but for now I think all's well.
I guess there was such anticipation and there is suuuuuch a fanbase with years of preconceptions so the backlash was bound to be pretty fast and furious!
I think the biggest issue with this codex is that rhinos are very hard to use assault marines with, and they made it pretty expensive (comparatively) to make marines that are both shooty and choppy. They gave a couple other options, but somehow they don't feel right. Maybe it's just a sign of the times though.
Tzeench also kinda sucks but that feels sort of traditional at this point. Not really a big design issue.
Fascinating and fun codex so far. Some things feel a little off, but they always do.
Anyone else find the icons to be rather redundant or pointless on some units? Like Vengeance, flame, or despair on possessed. Nice one Kelly, rooting out the dumb blondes of 40k one overcosted redundant "upgrade" at a time.
Lucre wrote: There are some flavor things that could probably have been handled better. And being one of those "nuanced codexes" that tries to walk fine lines with it's selection of units and configurations it feels like there are some areas where configurations have ways of making other sort of redundant seemingly unintentionally,
I very much agree on this. My only complaints are so-so fluff, somewhat redundant unit choices, and no new characters (I'm only really miffed about Cypher not making an appearence). Otherwise I really like it.
Sencho wrote: A CSM player just swept our monthly tournament at my FLGS. I applaud GW for making a balanced codex that's competitive in the current game.
I attribute this more to New Army Syndrome than anything else. Dark Eldar were destroying people and taking tournaments when they first came out, but after about a month they dropped almost to a bottom tier army.
Once people get used to the new Chaos book we'll see them start to line up with most of the other Codex books. They seem strong enough to hold their own against the likes of Blood Angels, but they definitely aren't on the level that Guard or Space Wolves are.
With that said, I agree with everything Lucre said...especially about Tzeentch. Our gaming group is already talking about letting units with Mark of Tzeentch at least have a 5+ invulnerable save if they don't have one instead of the negligible 6+ invul save.
Sencho wrote: A CSM player just swept our monthly tournament at my FLGS. I applaud GW for making a balanced codex that's competitive in the current game.
I attribute this more to New Army Syndrome than anything else. Dark Eldar were destroying people and taking tournaments when they first came out, but after about a month they dropped almost to a bottom tier army.
Once people get used to the new Chaos book we'll see them start to line up with most of the other Codex books. They seem strong enough to hold their own against the likes of Blood Angels, but they definitely aren't on the level that Guard or Space Wolves are.
With that said, I agree with everything Lucre said...especially about Tzeentch. Our gaming group is already talking about letting units with Mark of Tzeentch at least have a 5+ invulnerable save if they don't have one instead of the negligible 6+ invul save.
another AP3 torrent flamer! ugg, next time I will be ready
Carry on.
...
. But they can't score. Just like the Berzerkers (who are Elites now) without a Khorne Lord.
t6 20 point wings 
..... 
OH because maybe it's true!
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