Chaos players unite: fixing the new CSM codex.

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**Spartan089**

I would shy away from creating entirely new special characters. Best thing would probably be army wide special rules purchased by a chaos lord. Sort of like sagas for Space wolves. I agree with more cultist options though, and I would just restore the old chaos undivided .icon as a teleport homer

**SoloFalcon1138**

Valkyrie wrote:
So it's been 4 days since Codex release and we're already saying how bad it is and how it needs to be improved?

QFT

Has anyone bothered to play with the new codex yet? Probably not. While I miss some of the old rules, I'm not goingnto whine about the new rules until I've tried them out.

**AtoMaki**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Has anyone bothered to play with the new codex yet?.

I did! With an Abaddon+Chosen+Daemon Engines army (against SoB+IG, 3 battles, 1 loss, 2 wins), with Typhus+Nurgle stuff army (4 battles, against Necron, 2xSalamanders and 'Nids, 2 ties, 1 win, 1 loss), with Huron+infiltrating LR kill team+termies+daemons army (1 battle, versus Tau, big win) and lastly with an all-Tzeentch army with Ahri, TS and daemons (1 battle, against Nurgle CSM, wiped out). My proposed stuff is pretty much the reflection of my (and the two other CSM player in my gaming club) experiences.

**daedalus**

Sephyr wrote:
daedalus wrote:
I wish I had the ability to dismiss a book within a week of it coming out without rigorous playtesting.

It doesn't take that much effort to give it a soplid read, compare it with other, existing books, and determine if it's a step up or down.

It's quite possible that some build out there will come up and be competitive. That does not a good codex make.

I beg to differ. The Tyranid codex is better than everyone gives it credit for; Not much, but it really is if you do it right.

And, as far as this new codex goes, I've lost two out of two games against it, one with GK, one with IG. I used to beat the old codex regularly. I'd be concerned that perhaps my roommate has found one of those magical competitive builds, were it not for the fact that the backbone of his army is squads of Thousand Sons and MoT Sorcerers. I'm not saying it's an amazing codex, as two games isn't sample size enough for me to decide that yet. I'm just balking at all of the "HURR DEY SUX" that I'm reading.

But, then again, I find myself doing that every time a codex comes out, no matter what side of the fence the outrage is on.

**Spartan089**

ClassicCarraway wrote:
The thing about points cost is too many people like to look at a single unit (usually elite units) and immediately complain because there is another unit in another army that is better/cheaper and thus the new unit is overpriced. Its never that the new unit is priced right and the old, better unit was underpriced. Also, nobody ever takes into consideration the pricing of the rest of the army. In a vacuum, they are overpriced, but in a list that contains a couple of havoc squads loaded with 4 autocannons (115 points each squad, exceptionally cheap), suddenly they get lots of cover fire that may allow them to make it across the board and their stock goes up. Throw in a large, attention getting unit like a Maulerfiend, and the Berzerkers have even more potential.

As for being on topic, one change I would recommend are allowing Thousand Sons to carry a heavy weapon of some sort. Too many people complain about their price and the. fact that they can't even carry a heavy weapon to deal with tanks. Losing overwatch is not that bad, and given the fact they shoot rapid fire AP3 bolters that don't get hot, it was either lose OW or get a steep points hike. At least allow plasma/melta guns.

The Mark of Tzeentch should be put back to where it was before, 5+ invul save if no invul save is available.

Given how grossly effective Chaos Marine Bikers can be now (especially for the points), I don't think they actually need Doomrider. I foresee a big spike in large biker lists for Chaos, as they are just too good with 3 of the 4 marks.

I do agree giving heavy weapons to thousand sons would mitigate a few problems, if I would include doom rider I would only have him unlock bikers as troop choices if they have the mark of Slaneesh.

**Brometheus**

I disagree. Rubrics are just fine with bolters-only. Here's why: In the fiction, a bolter can knock a space marine forwards if a bolt impacts the wall behind them. Ap3 bolters are just fine for Thousand Sons, and represent a wide variety of battlefield sorcery and cool crap going on.

I don't care about the overwatch, but the Rubricae are just as fast as regular marines and just as deadly with a sorcerer guiding them (see: Battle of the Fang).

Just the tiny tiny mechanic of Relentless w/ psyker, S&P without would make a BIG change to them and you would see more people taking them. They do not need weapons, nor do they need a points decrease.

Special weapons are not realistic. Established fiction has them using bolters with terrifying effect.

**Knighty**

I agree that assault rhinos would be too OP, but feel that a bersker special rule that allowed them to charge from any vehicle could be viable.

Would need toning down somehow. Possibly say the vehicle has to be stationary as it was in 4th edition, and I was toying with the idea of having them carve their way out and glance/destroy the rhino in the process.

**Farseer Mael Dannan**

Spartan089 wrote:
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
The Codex is fine. I played against it a few days ago, and it was much more powerful than it's predecessor. Dear god if you got any of the things that you posted, it would just be a bit too much. The only thing I COULD agree with would be T6, however I don't think he needs Eternal Warrior (and should still be down'd instantly with the right weapon just like an Avatar can be). I also feel that T5 was done on purpose and it's not all that bad. The idea is to make you play tactically with your Daemon Prince as he is not as powerful as a full fledged Daemon of the Warp. But everyone wants Assault Rhinos and you guys do not particularly need it. I venture to say that nobody will be getting them.

To address everything else. You should not get new Land Raiders, that tech was found post-heresy. I'm not sure if I agree or not with the Blast Masters, I never saw too much of an issue with them in groups of 6 as before. I like that Daemon Weapons aren't carried by every Chaos Lord and their dogs. It really made them stale in the last edition, and I'm glad to see they are more of a unique weapon again. Daemon Princes should not unlock cult troops as troop choices, they are more daemon oriented than marine oriented and would have little connection at that point to the actual commanding of forces. Cult Troops are fine, which ones don't pull their weight? Even Bezerkers, the ones that arguably got hit the worst, still hold their point value versus many other equivalents.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AtoMaki wrote:

Why should he?
- Berzerkers: 4 attacks on charge, 2 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, 1 power weapon per unit, 19 ppm
- DC: 5 attacks on charge, 3 after charge, WS5, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, lots of power weapons per unit, 20ppm
Overall: +1 ppm for +1 attack and Feel No Pain. Hooops ...

Can DC be taken as troops? AFAIK they cannot be. Mystery solved.

The DC question has been answered and as for new vehicle variants, what's to stop dark mechanis from tampering with the core design. That's how the redeemer and crusader came to be, they were battle feild modifications. Hell chaos could have just captured a forge world and started pumping out loyalist land taidets, the point is it makes no sense they don't have variants.

"The Land Raider Crusader was originally designed by the Black Templars to provide vast amounts of anti-infantry fire before disgorging the Black Templars to mow down the survivors. It was designed during the Jerulas Crusade in (645.M39) by Artificer Simagus using recovered ancient techno-arcana in the long-forgotten depths of a captured Hive City. As tales of the Crusader's successes spread, many other Chapters began to request information regarding its remodelling. The Techpriests of Mars officially recognised the Crusader pattern in 763.M39, although this was a mere formality since the design had already spread to hundreds of Chapters." - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Crusader

So no, they did were not simple field modifications. It required "ancient techno-arana" to make it. Why is it so hard to make a Land Raider with changed guns? I have no idea, but I believe all the other variants were created along the same line and not just haphazardly.

Also towards Bezerkers, as everyone feels they are the sad kids in the corner. This is why there is little sympathy.

Spoiler:

**Brometheus**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:
So it's been 4 days since Codex release and we're already saying how bad it is and how it needs to be improved?

QFT

Has anyone bothered to play with the new codex yet? Probably not. While I miss some of the old rules, I'm not goingnto whine about the new rules until I've tried them out.

Actually, I have played plenty with the new book. I played during 3.5 and for the record, I did not like that book and I am glad it's gone.

I like the new rules and we all have the right to suggest new ones at any time. Dare dispute that fact?

I don't understand why people are condemned for suggesting new content. How is it any different than all the threads opened a few days prior to ANY codex release? It's not. People can do what they want with their rules, and if you'd provide some input (i've seen you post and I know that you have good things to say) maybe you would be able to improve someone's hobby from the other side of the globe.

Isn't that rewarding? If not, then why are you reading the proposed rules section?

I like Firehouse Subs, btw.

**Spartan089**

Brometheus wrote:
I disagree. Rubrics are just fine with bolters-only. Here's why: In the fiction, a bolter can knock a space marine forwards if a bolt impacts the wall behind them. Ap3 bolters are just fine for Thousand Sons, and represent a wide variety of battlefield sorcery and cool crap going on.

I don't care about the overwatch, but the Rubricae are just as fast as regular marines and just as deadly with a sorcerer guiding them (see: Battle of the Fang).

Just the tiny tiny mechanic of Relentless w/ psyker, S&P without would make a BIG change to them and you would see more people taking them. They do not need weapons, nor do they need a points decrease.

Special weapons are not realistic. Established fiction has them using bolters with terrifying effect.

Well I would say that does sound like a minor change that could help alot, and frankly don't know why it wasn't in the actually codex.

**AnomanderRake**

The list is a lot better than the old one, really; it may not be perfect but it isn't unplayable.

I'd like something to stick in Chaos lists to serve as an equivalent of the Stormraven/Storm Eagle, for starters, and I'd like Infiltrate back on Chosen (perhaps as a purchaseable upgrade?), though, if we're griping about things we wish we had. And an HQ that makes Raptors Troops, if only because I love the new models.

**Spartan089**

Suggestions updated page 1

**Plumbumbarum**

Spartan089 wrote:
Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points

t6 20 point wings EW and -25 cost, you've never seen Hive Tyrant statline have you?

**daedalus**

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points

t6 20 point wings EW and -25 cost, you've never seen Hive Tyrant statline have you?

Yeah, don't forget 70 point assault vehicles.

6th edition must really be hard to play.

**Spartan089**

Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....

**Brometheus**

Take that trolling elsewhere, no one cares

except slangdanglio, he does...

**Plumbumbarum**

Spartan089 wrote:
Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....

I apologise if I came out boorish, what you proposed for DP in comparision with what I pay for Hive Tyrant suprised me a bit. If your other propositions and complaints carry similar disproportions, I have to question their validity though.

Also my comment was also an actual question whether you know Tyrant statline and cost or not because as it is now, Tyrant is 5 point base cost higher, T6 no invunerable no EW, wings for 60 points, lower WS, lower BS, I think one less attack (not sure I only saw Daemon Prince for a moment), 2+ armour save for 40 pts vs 20 for DP. If your changes were applied and counting base cost + wings for example, that would get you 70 points cheaper all aroud better FMC, at least unless I overlooked something.

I don't think that everything should be equaly costed among codieces, obviously those units are in different armies and can't be directly compared. That said, I'm quite certain you want too much and just EW could fix the DP as it is now.

Feel free to prove me wrong though, it's easy to miss something about 40k as it's an information overload at times.

**daedalus**

Spartan089 wrote:
Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....

Well, that's the crux of the issue, really. My helpful criticism is "stop wishing you had your old codex and try curbing your disappointment long enough to play the new codex", which will be blatantly disregarded. But I will try:

- You've invented pick-and-choose army wide special rules that are customarily limited only to being allowed by virtue of taking a specific HQ. This has, by all rights, been done away with since early 4th edition.
- You've removed the fluffy drawback that your HQs had to help justify how cheap they are without any sort of point increase.
- You've made DP's literally impossible to kill before they get into melee. I would seriously have to tailor an IG list for killing your DP before it hit melee. Further, you gave it a point DECREASE.
- You've taken the only drawback that Thousand Sons have and make it even more negligible than it was previously (which is pretty damn negligible in 6th ed). In return, you've not increased the point cost.
- You've made rhinos assault vehicles for effectively 7 points per model inside. Think about that one for a while.

These things are bad. If it's an improvement, it should have a built in cost. If it's an optional improvement, it should cost even more than if it was in the included cost.

**Bausk**

daedalus wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....

Well, that's the crux of the issue, really. My helpful criticism is "stop wishing you had your old codex and try curbing your disappointment long enough to play the new codex", which will be blatantly disregarded. But I will try:

- You've invented pick-and-choose army wide special rules that are customarily limited only to being allowed by virtue of taking a specific HQ. This has, by all rights, been done away with since early 4th edition.
- You've removed the fluffy drawback that your HQs had to help justify how cheap they are without any sort of point increase.
- You've made DP's literally impossible to kill before they get into melee. I would seriously have to tailor an IG list for killing your DP before it hit melee. Further, you gave it a point DECREASE.
- You've taken the only drawback that Thousand Sons have and make it even more negligible than it was previously (which is pretty damn negligible in 6th ed). In return, you've not increased the point cost.
- You've made rhinos assault vehicles for effectively 7 points per model inside. Think about that one for a while.

These things are bad. If it's an improvement, it should have a built in cost. If it's an optional improvement, it should cost even more than if it was in the included cost.

QFT, the codex is awesome and balanced. It's not everything everyone wanted but its most of the way there. Heck the last one was most of the way there for me, this one is good enough without making it a codex taliored to my army. Stop complaining and wait for a 6th ed C:SM dex to compare it too cause as far as I see there's curtailing going on across the whole game. Frankly the chaos codex is well balanced for all situations and we can make a more lethal, more specialized or flexible force than the space marines provided we pay the cost. Or we can swamp them with selfish Renegades, dear god now I want an old school red corsair army.

**Godless-Mimicry**

The funny thing about these threads really though isn't whether or not the Codex is good or not, but rather the fact that people complain about the balance as if they know better and then present completely bent or ridiculous rules that are much worse than what already exists.

I'd much prefer that all this internet whining was often accompanied with a bit of honesty stating that the actual reason at least half of those people are upset is they didn't get a broken dex. That's at least a lot more legit than what some people are trying to conjure up as reason.

**Sephyr**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

I'd much prefer that all this internet whining was often accompanied with a bit of honesty stating that the actual reason at least half of those people are upset is they didn't get a broken dex. That's at least a lot more legit than what some people are trying to conjure up as reason.

Accusing people of having base motives without evidence is not a nice thing to do. People who want cheese already have plenty of books to choose from (one might even say they have a dedicated author!).

Most of the complainst I see are about things that were not broken and now are iffy (LD 8 Oblits, clunky fragile DPs, outrageously priced warp talons and defilers, etc). Now, personally, I'd be all up for revising the cheesy books from the past instead of demanding that the current codex live up to their competitive standards. Other companies do it just fine. But that's not what GW does (I dare not hope the Chaos Daemons update will be an enduring trend).

So we're left hoping each new book will be good but not -too- good, which is a very delicate balance. I think Dark Eldar were there in 5th (strong but with many exploitable flaws), and Blood Angels may be there for 6th (their FNP bubble and FC a bit weaker but still a flexible army with lots of options, even if their HQs need fixing).

**Spartan089**

Bausk wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Well instead of snide remarks, how about helpful criticism.....

Well, that's the crux of the issue, really. My helpful criticism is "stop wishing you had your old codex and try curbing your disappointment long enough to play the new codex", which will be blatantly disregarded. But I will try:

- You've invented pick-and-choose army wide special rules that are customarily limited only to being allowed by virtue of taking a specific HQ. This has, by all rights, been done away with since early 4th edition.
- You've removed the fluffy drawback that your HQs had to help justify how cheap they are without any sort of point increase.
- You've made DP's literally impossible to kill before they get into melee. I would seriously have to tailor an IG list for killing your DP before it hit melee. Further, you gave it a point DECREASE.
- You've taken the only drawback that Thousand Sons have and make it even more negligible than it was previously (which is pretty damn negligible in 6th ed). In return, you've not increased the point cost.
- You've made rhinos assault vehicles for effectively 7 points per model inside. Think about that one for a while.

These things are bad. If it's an improvement, it should have a built in cost. If it's an optional improvement, it should cost even more than if it was in the included cost.

QFT, the codex is awesome and balanced. It's not everything everyone wanted but its most of the way there. Heck the last one was most of the way there for me, this one is good enough without making it a codex taliored to my army. Stop complaining and wait for a 6th ed C:SM dex to compare it too cause as far as I see there's curtailing going on across the whole game. Frankly the chaos codex is well balanced for all situations and we can make a more lethal, more specialized or flexible force than the space marines provided we pay the cost. Or we can swamp them with selfish Renegades, dear god now I want an old school red corsair army.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
The funny thing about these threads really though isn't whether or not the Codex is good or not, but rather the fact that people complain about the balance as if they know better and then present completely bent or ridiculous rules that are much worse than what already exists.

I'd much prefer that all this internet whining was often accompanied with a bit of honesty stating that the actual reason at least half of those people are upset is they didn't get a broken dex. That's at least a lot more legit than what some people are trying to conjure up as reason.

I see in addition to all this "whining" on the internet as you put, people also do not know how to read. This thread is for helpful suggestions and advice only for use in casual games for people who would choose to use it. I don't dictate how you play your games so don't criticize me for wanting to play mines the way I want with reasonable changes. If your so content with the codex then you have no business here derailing my thread. Again this is the proposed rule forum. I don't see you giving input or proposing rules so kindly leave you crass comments at the door. Thank you.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Arguing that there's no point in changing what isn't broken is a form of critisism, just not the critisism you want.

You want a Codex that can make Bikes, Terminators (through Chosen) AND Raptors troops depending on what stuff you're using. You want to be able to take a 5-man Marine squad with FNP and a S8 AP3 ignores cover large blast. As has been noted, you want a FMC with way more options than any other in the game to also be cheaper than any other in the game. I'm afraid there's nothing we can add; that's crazy.

**Sephyr**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
As has been noted, you want a FMC with way more options than any other in the game to also be cheaper than any other in the game. I'm afraid there's nothing we can add; that's crazy.

Let me introduce you to the Dreadknight. It has less options than the DP mostly because it comes out of the gate with an armor save and Invulnerable save that no DP can match however many points you sink into it, and also higher Toughness and Leadership. The only point in which it loses to a DP is that it can never be a flying MC; it is superior in every other regard, and usually far cheaper than a Daemon Prince.

Also, while it has zero options, the Avatar of Khaine s a steal for its point cost.

Options are tricky. Especially when many of the options involve paying for stuff that was free before. Princes had a 3+ save; now you have the 'option' of paiong for it. They were natural psykers if they were not of Khorne. Now you pay through the nose for the privilege of 'option'.

**cowpow16**

I like the ideas of the change. how ever i disagree with some stuff.

they should always have to challenge because they thirst for glory. infantasy its the same for woc (yes its a pain but you addapt.

I like the t5 not eternal warrior dp. I'm sick of having to kill 3 flying ones.

The turning into a spawn is unfortunate but pretty funny.

i like the idea of shuffling some of the units around but i do not agree with raptors and bikes as troops. if you want bikes play anothet army and if you want assault marines as troops play ba.

**AtoMaki**

Spartan089 wrote:

Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points

This is definietly way toooo OP. DPs only need a points reduction, otherwise, they are kinda' fine.

If you really want Eternal Warrior, then I would ssay that you should create a (pretty expensive, around 20-30 points) Chaos Artefact that specifically gives EW. So everyone can be happy.

**Spartan089**

Might impose a 0-1 for daemon princes to balance out certain things in any regard. Also in terms of bike troops and raptor troops thats mostly there for night lord players.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AtoMaki wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:

Daemon Prince - t6 and eternal Warrior, Marks confer their effect, May take Undivided Mark, Wings reduced to 20pts, base cost reduced 25 points

This is definietly way toooo OP. DPs only need a points reduction, otherwise, they are kinda' fine.

If you really want Eternal Warrior, then I would ssay that you should create a (pretty expensive, around 20-30 points) Chaos Artefact that specifically gives EW. So everyone can be happy.

Except its not really op, because they had all that in last codex and no one really complained, and chaos daemon princes are pretty much that as well.

**AtoMaki**

Spartan089 wrote:

Except its not really op, because they had all that in last codex and no one really complained, and chaos daemon princes are pretty much that as well.

In the last codex, the T6 was a Mark of Nurgle option, and the wings only made him a Jump MC. CD Daemon Princes are S5, take wings for 60 points, power armour for 30 points, and you need to pay 30 points to make them T6 (with MoN). Overall, by CD standards, your PA+wings+T6 DP should cost 220 points (not counting the +2 WS, +3I and +1A what should cost an additional 20-30 points). Instead of 165. And as an other problem, the CSm Dp is a HQ selection, so you can "force yourself" to take it as the compulsory choice and call it a day.

**Spartan089**

True than ill will keep the base cost the same and have eternal warrior a purchasble upgrade.

Or alternatively ill use this:

Sephyr wrote:

WS 9
BS 5
S 6
T 6
W 4
I 7
A 5
LD 9

Special Rules: Daemon, Fearless, Monstrous Creature

120 points

Upgrades:
MUST be upgraded to a daemons of a specific god. This counts as a mark of that chaos deity (with the proper rulles) and also grants the specific Daemon Prince upgrades listed in the codex.
-Can take Wings for 40 points.
-Can take Power Armor for 20 points.
-Can gain Fleshmetal for 50 points; cannot be taken along with Wings.
-Can gain a Daemonic Rune for 30 points (confers the eternal Warrior Rule)
-Can purchase Veteran of the Long War for 5 points.
-May take up to 3 Mastery Lever for 20 points each.

-Has access to Chaos Reward and Chaos Artefacts wargear lists.

**daedalus**

I think that the problem here is that people are not realizing just how amazing FMC are. Crazy amounts of movement, 1 in 6 chance of hitting the damn thing, and it can drop out of flying to assault at any round? Sign me up.

Some other food for thought. A lot of people have been lamenting 'losing' their 2 DPs that they ran with their CSM army. As that was the automatic build that everyone took, doesn't that maybe mean that DP were a little too good?