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Having not really seen everything for the Chaos codex outside of just stuff on this forum, I can't say for sure but I feel like a lot of this stuff is an overreaction.

However, one fairly minor change that I would like to add to the Chaos Space Marines codex, but would make it so that Lost and the Damned could live again and it'd be pretty fun. My old LatD list's only marines were the ones that led the rabble!

Cultist Squad:
May add a Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion for +23 points. The Aspiring Champion may take any options from the Ranged and/or Melee Options of the wargear list and may also take a Mark of Chaos: Khorne+5, Nurgle+10, Tzeentch+5, Slaanesh+5. May be a Veteran of the Long War for 5 points.

Add a bunch of new units. One of them is roughly equivalent to DE wyches, with an equally good transport,like a raider. Next, mechanical Furies, which are basically gargoyles. Then, something like a sentinel that can be run in blobs and run around the field launching bombs and missiles and junk. Next, something like artillery. Then, something like a beast that deep strikes and shoots lascannons out of itself and causes a bunch of damage, but disappears after two turns on the field (like a warp phantom or something).

Anyway, my point is that CSM are too similar to last edition CSM. They need some totally off the wall weird stuff to make them fun and interesting. Stuff that doesn't follow normal CSM playstyles. If I had the patience to actually make some of those things I mentioned and provide rules for them, I think they would be cool.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
Add a bunch of new units. One of them is roughly equivalent to DE wyches, with an equally good transport,like a raider. Next, mechanical Furies, which are basically gargoyles. Then, something like a sentinel that can be run in blobs and run around the field launching bombs and missiles and junk. Next, something like artillery. Then, something like a beast that deep strikes and shoots lascannons out of itself and causes a bunch of damage, but disappears after two turns on the field (like a warp phantom or something).

Anyway, my point is that CSM are too similar to last edition CSM. They need some totally off the wall weird stuff to make them fun and interesting. Stuff that doesn't follow normal CSM playstyles. If I had the patience to actually make some of those things I mentioned and provide rules for them, I think they would be cool.

mechanical furies, (so another jump pack choice, wow that's original)
blobs of sentinels (ally in IG for sentinels? you can take 1-3)
thing that deep strikes and shoots lascannons (obliterators)
artillery (ally in some IG)

Strong suggestions, I'm glad you didn't write the new Chaos codex


CSM already have enough weird (and by weird I mean moronic) things in their book like a flying dragon, and giant lazor cannon zoids.

A couple of ideas:

Mark of Chaos Undivided: Roughly 1ppm. Models with a Mark of Chaos Undivided have ATSKNF. Additionally, a character with a mark of Chaos Undivided may join a squad marked with any mark of chaos, and may join unmarked squads.

Unholy Token: 20 Points. Characters with an Unholy token may choose to re-roll one or both dice rolled on the boon table.

Mark of the Night Lords: 2ppm. Models with the Mark of the Night Lords have the fear USR.
Mark of the Night Lords (HQ Mark): 35 Points. HQ choices only. HQ choices with the Mark of the Night Lords Legion have the fear USR. Additionally, Raptors may be taken as a troops choice, and all Warp Talon units are now scoring. However, if an HQ choice in your army has a Mark of the Night Lords Legion, no other mark other than the Mark of Chaos undivided may be taken on any units in the army.

Mark of the Alpha Legion: 4ppm. Models with the mark of the Alpha Legion gain the Inflitrate and Outflanking USRs. Mark of the Alpha Legion (HQ): 40 points: Models with the mark of the Alpha Legion gain the Inflitrate and Outflanking USRs. Additionally, if this model would be removed as a casualty, as long as there is at least one other friendly chaos space marine model on the board, roll a D6. On a 3+, instead replace a random chaos space marine in a random quad with this model (the removed model counts as a casualty). However, if a Mark of the Alpha Legion (HQ) is chosen, no other marks of chaos other than the mark of chaos undivided may be taken in your army.

I can't think of Legion marks for the world bearers or iron warriors right now.

Man some of the people here are very negative towards other's opinion I thought this was meant to be a thread where you discuss your opinions about the codex and what we would change/ improve not insult others for their opinions can't we just all get along .
I have played a couple of games with the new codex so I reckon whilst some stuff are pretty good it is generally an average codex compared to what I expected here are a few things I would change.

Make all Hqs with the correct mark able to unlock Cult units as Troops not just Lords or a few SC (I want a whole Nurgle army led by either a Warsmith Sorcerer or Dark Apostle don't want to have a Lord as well do do it)

Give back Daemon prices Eternal Warrior either with wargear or an upgrade as they are deamons so they shouldn't be able to be instantly killed

More SC why do we have the same old ones from the last codex can't GW at least come up with a few ones for the two new HQs like an iron warrior warsmith or dark apostle give some of the other legions some love with unlocking bikes, raptors or terminators as troops (bring back doomrider)

Give all SC protection against spawn or Daemon Hood they ar SC they should not be able to become a DP or Spawn, also give some form of protection against Spawnhood

More Psychic powers plus an Undivided set of powers

More God Specific wargear, daemon weapons and vehicles upgrades as well as undivided and Legion specific ones too (including marks for vehicles especially Defilers and Hellbrutes)

Give Dark apostles more wargear options including terminator armour, jump packs or bikes as well as making Flesh Metal being able to be taken by all Hqs not just Warsmiths. Being able to upgrade the 2 W Hqs to an extra wound would be nice as well like a Sorcerer Lord, Grand Dark Apostle or Supreme Warpsmith

The Chaos Champion is alright but make it so those we challenge can't refuse either with wargear or something

More Cult units for each God like Berserkers on juggernauts, or something cool etc plus actual Cult terminators

More Dedicated Transports apart from Rhinos and our only Land Raider what happened to all our Drop pods/ Dread Claws can't they at least come up with some new ones I mean we have Dark Mechanicus and Warpsmiths for gods sake why can't they make a daemon Transport or new Land Raider variant for use they can make Daemon engine but no transports, they could at least make a Land Raider Obliterator or one with a large transport capacity

Bring back infiltrate on chosen as well as giving them more options instead of only 4 being able to select special weapons or close combat weapons with an extra heavy weapon they are chaos veterans give them lots of upgrades with options for bikes or Jump packs otherwise what's the point in being Chosen if you don't have any perks

Give all Cult Units the option for Dedicated Land raider transports as well as chosen, plus another flyer and anti air maye a cool new gun for defiler or forgefiend that can be anti air

Possessed need to have more daemonic powers than just roll a dice out of 3 choices make them like the man eaters in the Ogres army book being able to select 2- 3 options off a chart of 9 with certain options not being able to be taken together.

Finally make Plague Zombies units able to be 30+ strong not 10 due to poor explaining as well as making them being able to be taken by a Nurgle HQ even if slightly more expensive not just only Typhus as I want my Zombie horde but do not really like Typhus.

Ok that is what I would change but we all know it would never happen so please don't be too critical about what I have said

Vladsimpaler wrote:
mechanical furies, (so another jump pack choice, wow that's original)

Not at all. More like flying cultists. Low cost, high density unit that overhwelms thing really well on the cheap. There's hardly any high model count units in CSM, besides cultists. Everything is too fancy, and too expensive, model by model

blobs of sentinels (ally in IG for sentinels? you can take 1-3)

Why bother? I don't want to have to dig into other armies. Allies are a crutch, and stifle creativity.

thing that deep strikes and shoots lascannons (obliterators)

I don't mean literally lascannons. Something more fun than that, and more fluffy. Like a flying ball of tentacles

artillery (ally in some IG)

See number two. Allies are a crutch, and shouldn't have to be subbed into crappy codexes to make them less terrible

Strong suggestions, I'm glad you didn't write the new Chaos codex

I'm glad you took time out of your day to be condescending ass. They weren't demands, they were ideas.

I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.

Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.

Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.

dracosz wrote:
I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.

Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.

Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.

I like the removal of Daemon weapons, every lord and their dog had one and it was boring. FYI, the murder sword and the Brand are not Daemon weapons. Realistically Khorne lords are the only ones that need a Daemon weapon, they don't get psykers and as a result they are vulnerable to psykers (with one notable exception with the blessing of the blood god). That and they are ment to rip it up in combat more than the others. I'm amused but the term gimmicky, they are situation weapons that fill purposes and play styles. They have negatives and unique bonuses that are almost always astronomically powerful by comparison to other unique weapons.

Well, MoTF can't take wings/jump packs either. But I suspect that perhaps the CSM codex is a taste of generalised revisions to come for the rest of the 6th ed races. GW tend to rebalance weak to strong and strong gets nerfed. Common boring trends get written out and less used units get new flexibilty or focus.I'd wait to see what they do with the other MEQ codices before really getting into a grass is greener fight. That said, as it stands I agree with you here, its like GW shooting themselves in the foot limiting these units if other MEQ versions won't be.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:

I'm glad you took time out of your day to be condescending ass. They weren't demands, they were ideas.

How is a flying ball of tentacles any more fluffy than a flying mechanical dragon or a giant chaos zoid? I understand that they're ideas but fundamentally they don't really add anything to the army outside of another gimmick.

You're not understanding my point which is that sometimes less is more. You want a ton of "crazy" things added, which Chaos has already had added. A giant mechanical dragon? Yeah that's pretty out there, as are the Mauler/Forgefiend.

Look at my suggestion and then back at yours. Your suggestions are all superfluous and don't really add a new playstyle, it's just a bunch of out-there suggestions. Mine makes a whole army possible, aka Lost and the Damned which tons of players used back in the day before it was made illegal.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Having not really seen everything for the Chaos codex outside of just stuff on this forum, I can't say for sure but I feel like a lot of this stuff is an overreaction.

However, one fairly minor change that I would like to add to the Chaos Space Marines codex, but would make it so that Lost and the Damned could live again and it'd be pretty fun. My old LatD list's only marines were the ones that led the rabble!

Cultist Squad:
May add a Chaos Space Marine Aspiring Champion for +23 points. The Aspiring Champion may take any options from the Ranged and/or Melee Options of the wargear list and may also take a Mark of Chaos: Khorne+5, Nurgle+10, Tzeentch+5, Slaanesh+5. May be a Veteran of the Long War for 5 points.

While I may not agree entirely on the overeaction thing, I agree on the upgrade for cultist bloobs (felt they needed more options anyway) their aspiring champion, as he is, isn't really going to beat anyone in challenge

 Samus_aran115 wrote:

mechanical furies, (so another jump pack choice, wow that's original)

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Not at all. More like flying cultists. Low cost, high density unit that overhwelms thing really well on the cheap. There's hardly any high model count units in CSM, besides cultists. Everything is too fancy, and too expensive, model by model

Why do you feel like CSM is entitled to low-cost blobs? You already have cultists, in a book that represents thousands-of-years old, warp-twisted badasses, everything should be fancy and expensive. Not every book is made to have tarpits, especially fast-moving ones. Use cultists if you want an overwhelmer, or else go to a different book. Don't expect your book to be able to fill every niche in the game.

The only options Cultists should have is the option (aka duty) to die for their masters.

I've used them in lots of games now and not once have I rejoiced for giving them autoguns or even flamers.

They just need to have ccw/autopistol. I guess you could make the autogun "free" but whatever. WYSIWYG and mine have autoguns.

What I have found the new CSM codex is grossly underwhelming if you want to do a dedicated list. 1000 sons, Emp Children, Plague Marines and even Berzerkers are too costly to field en masse. However if you look at CSM, Havocs, Bikers and even Raptors are cheap. The remaking of Obliterators is good.

Take CSM, 140 points for 10 marines is cheap. Now if you want VotLW and the backup CCW, they are going to cost. Look at it, for 270 points you have 20 marines! Now they may not be impressive but in numbers they are. Havocs are dirt cheap even with the HW.

My problem is mostly aesthetics. I hate the dragon model, I would have preferred a plastic CSM fighter or fighter bomber. I am disappointed that they didn't make a chaos drop pod. I am totally disgusted that they took the time to make a nice plastic chaos lord but didn't rework obliterators to plastic. I find the new war engines meh. As far as the rules, there were some things lost but if you are willing to adapt, the new CSM codex is perfectly viable.

tbh I think the codex is well balanced and a nice reflection of the 3.5 codex minus the silliness like Iron Warriors. No need for proposed rules, though a small handful of FAQs are needed...this wishlisting is like slapping Phil Kelly in the face and telling him he wrote the book incorrectly.

Honestly, as of right now, there are just a few things that bother me.

There should have been Daemon Weapons available for the other Three gods.
The ability to purchase Additional Mastery levels (And use the Divination dicisple) for Aspiring sorcerers
Being able to Mark Vehicles
Mutilators gaining Rampage.
Warpsmiths should have been able to degrade purchased fortifications and perhaps been able to add an extra heavy support slot. (0-4 heavy, for instance)
Dark Apostles should have been a 0-3 Elite Choice

Those are really my biggest complaints. I'm satisfied for the most part with everything else.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
tbh I think the codex is well balanced and a nice reflection of the 3.5 codex minus the silliness like Iron Warriors. No need for proposed rules, though a small handful of FAQs are needed...this wishlisting is like slapping Phil Kelly in the face and telling him he wrote the book incorrectly.

Yes, one of the original 20 legions is obviously silly. Yeah, joking lol

Really though It wouldn't be hard to adapt Iron warriors to the new dex, just as its now easy enough to adapt any of the legions to the new dex even if you need to use allies a bit it still works. Cept now its easier with the inclusion of new HQ options that fill thematic needs of Iron warriors and Word bearers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
Honestly, as of right now, there are just a few things that bother me.

There should have been Daemon Weapons available for the other Three gods.
The ability to purchase Additional Mastery levels (And use the Divination dicisple) for Aspiring sorcerers
Being able to Mark Vehicles
Mutilators gaining Rampage.
Warpsmiths should have been able to degrade purchased fortifications and perhaps been able to add an extra heavy support slot. (0-4 heavy, for instance)
Dark Apostles should have been a 0-3 Elite Choice

Those are really my biggest complaints. I'm satisfied for the most part with everything else.

Then it would basically be a requirement to have a DW again and Khorne would have nothing for the lack of Psykers. Boring.

Making lowly ACs as powerful as HQ level psykers. Divination is limited for chaos for a reason, hell if i know what it is though. Your suggestion is basically asking for Divination powers in ALL your squads (Don't even think about charging them, they can get full BS overwatch, fun), that's wrong on so many levels. If anyone in CSM should get it then only Ahriman should get it and he should get prescience at least for "free" as per his fluff. Mind you I'm glad they made him mastery level 4, it was a bit of an insult him being Mastery level 3.

Mutilators getting rampage is good, might make them useful as opposed to laughable. Still don't know why they removed fearless from Oblits and by extension Mutils, Oblits are only just useful.

Techpriests and techmarines don't do this and I don't see them doing it in the future, no point.

Cause chaplain equivilants should always be 0-3, pass.

Then it would basically be a requirement to have a DW again and Khorne would have nothing for the lack of Psykers. Boring.

How would it be a requirement? Make them diffrent enough, so that each one has it's own benefits. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's a helluve a lot less boring than TWO daemon weapons in the entire dex.

Making lowly ACs as powerful as HQ level psykers. Divination is limited for chaos for a reason, hell if i know what it is though. Your suggestion is basically asking for Divination powers in ALL your squads (Don't even think about charging them, they can get full BS overwatch, fun), that's wrong on so many levels. If anyone in CSM should get it then only Ahriman should get it and he should get prescience at least for "free" as per his fluff. Mind you I'm glad they made him mastery level 4, it was a bit of an insult him being Mastery level 3.

As of right now, Aspiring Sorcerers can only get powers from the Tzeench Tree. Gift of Mutation is useless, and you can't take Breath of Chaos. You basically either hope for Doombolt, or you swap gift for Firestorm. being able to Purchase an Additional Mastery level, would also not make them anywhere near the power of the HQ psykers, as they don't have the same statline.

Right now Thousand son squads are pathetic, and the Aspiring Sorcerer is borderline useless, with a 50% to roll the worst power in the game. Being able to Purchase Mastery levels would help some, and Divination as option would be a good thing.

Techpriests and techmarines don't do this and I don't see them doing it in the future, no point.

Techmarines and Techpriests aren't Warpsmiths Are they?
Also, in case you didn't know, the Warpsmith has the "Shatter Defenses ability" all they would have to do is take out the line about not being able to use it on purchased terrain. This is perfectly in line with being Siege specalists. Adding an Extra Heavy support slot would also help in that Direction.

Cause chaplain equivilants should always be 0-3, pass.

As of right now, everyone is passing up the Dark Apostle, because no one wants to waste an HQ slot on him. I can count on my hand how many times I've seen people take Chaplains as an HQ choice. They would be taken, and actually useful, as a 0-3 elite slot.

 Bausk wrote:

dracosz wrote:
I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.

Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.

Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.

I like the removal of Daemon weapons, every lord and their dog had one and it was boring. FYI, the murder sword and the Brand are not Daemon weapons. Realistically Khorne lords are the only ones that need a Daemon weapon, they don't get psykers and as a result they are vulnerable to psykers (with one notable exception with the blessing of the blood god). That and they are ment to rip it up in combat more than the others. I'm amused but the term gimmicky, they are situation weapons that fill purposes and play styles. They have negatives and unique bonuses that are almost always astronomically powerful by comparison to other unique weapons.
/quote]

Yes because the useless chaos lord needed something to justify itself, the DP was just a slot over and far better, but couldn't take DW, so thus the chaos lord took a DW because it was the only unique thing to it. Now we don't even get different DW types for the Chaos lord Or Daemon prince

GW tend to rebalance weak to strong and strong gets nerfed.[ Common boring trends get written out and less used units get new flexibilty or focus.

I'm sorry but what.

 Sasori wrote:


Everything

Agreed here fully, the Dark Apostle doesn't offer enough compared to the rest, most people at best take him and chaplains for fluffy reasons, and Tson aspiring sorcerers are pretty bad.

 Sasori wrote:

Then it would basically be a requirement to have a DW again and Khorne would have nothing for the lack of Psykers. Boring.

How would it be a requirement? Make them diffrent enough, so that each one has it's own benefits. There is nothing wrong with that, and it's a helluve a lot less boring than TWO daemon weapons in the entire dex.

Making lowly ACs as powerful as HQ level psykers. Divination is limited for chaos for a reason, hell if i know what it is though. Your suggestion is basically asking for Divination powers in ALL your squads (Don't even think about charging them, they can get full BS overwatch, fun), that's wrong on so many levels. If anyone in CSM should get it then only Ahriman should get it and he should get prescience at least for "free" as per his fluff. Mind you I'm glad they made him mastery level 4, it was a bit of an insult him being Mastery level 3.

As of right now, Aspiring Sorcerers can only get powers from the Tzeench Tree. Gift of Mutation is useless, and you can't take Breath of Chaos. You basically either hope for Doombolt, or you swap gift for Firestorm. being able to Purchase an Additional Mastery level, would also not make them anywhere near the power of the HQ psykers, as they don't have the same statline.

Right now Thousand son squads are pathetic, and the Aspiring Sorcerer is borderline useless, with a 50% to roll the worst power in the game. Being able to Purchase Mastery levels would help some, and Divination as option would be a good thing.

Techpriests and techmarines don't do this and I don't see them doing it in the future, no point.

Techmarines and Techpriests aren't Warpsmiths Are they?
Also, in case you didn't know, the Warpsmith has the "Shatter Defenses ability" all they would have to do is take out the line about not being able to use it on purchased terrain. This is perfectly in line with being Siege specalists. Adding an Extra Heavy support slot would also help in that Direction.

Cause chaplain equivilants should always be 0-3, pass.

As of right now, everyone is passing up the Dark Apostle, because no one wants to waste an HQ slot on him. I can count on my hand how many times I've seen people take Chaplains as an HQ choice. They would be taken, and actually useful, as a 0-3 elite slot.

With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.

Low cost, high quantity Aspiring Sorcerers. I'd be thankful they get anything at all, add to that all power rolls have not so good powers in it its the point. Divination, really, having Prescience to Scrier's Gaze on that many units is wrong, so no. Nothing will change my mind on that subject. Its not needed and its too powerful for the quantity and cost. How are Thousand sons pathetic? They are pretty much the same as the last codex, have access to soul blaze and pay less for the mandatory Sorcerer. What am I missing? Oh you don't like the powers, well they are ment to be low power level abilitys at one warp charge. Altering their Mastery would make them as powerful as HQs powers wise, not as survivable. That's the distinction.

I misread the first part, which is pretty bad idea anyway. They excluded fortifications from shatter defenses and I agree with it. Just as bolster defenses cannot improve fortifications and I definatly agree with that call. The other part about altering the Force organisation was great for Iron warriors in 3.5 but is terrible for 6th ed play. its unnessasary and no other unit does this, HQ or not. If anything they should alter unit organisation something akin to a Master of the forges ability.

The Dark Apostle is awesome for support and buffs. Run one with a lord for rerolls on the boon table and crusader USR, its a great combo. Or run one with a large assault unit, the Aspiring champion gets rerolls on the boon table and they unit gets Crusader USR. OR even better run all three together for a damn powerful combat unit Heck chaplains and alike are powerful when used in combination with things not as one man army's. Perhaps the people you play with have no use for combat buffers, most space marine forces don't so I'm not supprised. Close combat oriented forces would benefit more from them for sure, just as mech heavy forces benefit from having Tech marines, MotF, warpsmiths etc etc. Its nothing new, people play what they will and will find use in things they find useful for their play style. Me personally will almost always roll a Dark Apostle with my lord and close combat squad. Im really tempted to get a land raider for the assault, but the crusader rule will get them into combat fast enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

dracosz wrote:
I honestly like most of the codex, though there are a two things that really aggravate me.

Daemon Weapons: I for one am not a fan of the removal of the 4 daemon weapons from the previous codex. They were interesting wargear choices that, at AP 2, made chaos lords a very deadly force in CC. The current daemon weapon options left (the brand, the murder blade and the axe of blind fury) are very gimmicky weapons that are a lot less fluffy than being able to model your own daemon weapons. Just bring them back so we don't have to deal with black mace prince shenanigans and RAW, I guarantee people would love the codex a lot more if they were back.

Dark Apostles/Warpsmiths being unable to take bikes/wings: This makes *no* sense to me. Chaplains and masters of the forge can do it, why can't these guys? It really pigeonholes these guys into playing with blobs or assaulting out of raiders for the former (A pack of bikers/warp talons/mutilators with one of these would be deadly as hell...) and being a support gunline unit for the latter.

I like the removal of Daemon weapons, every lord and their dog had one and it was boring. FYI, the murder sword and the Brand are not Daemon weapons. Realistically Khorne lords are the only ones that need a Daemon weapon, they don't get psykers and as a result they are vulnerable to psykers (with one notable exception with the blessing of the blood god). That and they are ment to rip it up in combat more than the others. I'm amused but the term gimmicky, they are situation weapons that fill purposes and play styles. They have negatives and unique bonuses that are almost always astronomically powerful by comparison to other unique weapons.
/quote]

Yes because the useless chaos lord needed something to justify itself, the DP was just a slot over and far better, but couldn't take DW, so thus the chaos lord took a DW because it was the only unique thing to it. Now we don't even get different DW types for the Chaos lord Or Daemon prince

GW tend to rebalance weak to strong and strong gets nerfed.[ Common boring trends get written out and less used units get new flexibilty or focus.

I'm sorry but what.

 Sasori wrote:


Everything

Agreed here fully, the Dark Apostle doesn't offer enough compared to the rest, most people at best take him and chaplains for fluffy reasons, and Tson aspiring sorcerers are pretty bad.

As per the refocus in the last CSM codex. 3.5 to 4th was almost a reverse flip of the whole codex. 6th ed CSM is a slower more gradual rebalance pulling back over powered units (read as what people viewed as the only useful units in the codex) while buffing less used units like noise marines. Its something they do regularly, I'm supprised you don't understand the concept.

As per the refocus in the last CSM codex. 3.5 to 4th was almost a reverse flip of the whole codex. 6th ed CSM is a slower more gradual rebalance pulling back over powered units (read as what people viewed as the only useful units in the codex) while buffing less used units like noise marines. Its something they do regularly, I'm supprised you don't understand the concept.

Generally it's noted that the reverse flip is pretty bad to begin with, the rebalance was only in some area's whereas you can easily see some core issues arise from this new balance, such as the fact DP's aren't worth taking and have complete, wonky rules that actually hurt kitted out lords due to the boon table. Chosen, despite getting two attacks are horribly imbalanced when it comes to melee, as their wargear is far to expensive, leaving them in the previous role set up by 4th edition. Defilers got an unnecessary nerf in that they are now far more expensive and still worse then the standard space marine variants, land raiders are still horribly priced and bad for terminator travel, Thousand Sons are actually Worse then the 4th edition setup.

To say the least I understand that there can be balance over the editions, but it's not always gradual, it comes in waves and is as random as the boon table. There is no such thing as a rebalance, as things change in heavy ways throughout the editions.

With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.

So now instead of five bland daemon weapons, your down to two bland melee weapons. One of which is for Khorne only, Progress?

Not to mention Slaanesh doesn't have a unique item.

With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.

The people that I saw take lords, had a different Daemon weapon depending on the type of Army they've run. It wasn't boring, at all. It doesn't make any sense how you can say loosing variety, and customization, in a codex is a good thing, it's not. It would not have been difficult to make Unique Daemon weapons. Look what they did with the Black Mace, and the Axe, are you saying they couldn't make 3 more unique Weapons for each god? The answer is, they could have, and it would not be boring at all.

Low cost, high quantity Aspiring Sorcerers. I'd be thankful they get anything at all, add to that all power rolls have not so good powers in it its the point. Divination, really, having Prescience to Scrier's Gaze on that many units is wrong, so no. Nothing will change my mind on that subject. Its not needed and its too powerful for the quantity and cost. How are Thousand sons pathetic? They are pretty much the same as the last codex, have access to soul blaze and pay less for the mandatory Sorcerer. What am I missing? Oh you don't like the powers, well they are ment to be low power level abilitys at one warp charge. Altering their Mastery would make them as powerful as HQs powers wise, not as survivable. That's the distinction.

Thousand Sons squads, are anything but low cost, and really, "I should be thankful they get anything at all?" I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be thankful, when the codex writer makes a half ass attempt at something. If you really think being able to have Divination on aspiring sorcerers, is "Wrong, and too powerful" then you are overestimating it's power. People Took Divination on their Thousand Son squads before this Codex hit, and it was far from gamebreaking. It made Thousand Sons usable though, for the first time since 5th edition hit. Now, they are relegated to being shelved again. Soul Blaze is completely useless, so having access that worthless Icon does nothing for the squad.

Also, cheap Aspiring Sorcerers? They are two points less than the cost of an HQ sorcerer, how is that Cheap? Not to mention, I am certain, that it wasn't intended for there to be "Not so good powers" In any discipline. For that matter, All the powers in Nurgle and Slaanesh are excellent. Tzeench got the worst powers by far.

What you are missing that there is no competitive aspect to Thousand Sons at the moment, they are Overcosted and bring little to the table. A few small things, like the ability to take an additional Mastery level, and access to divination(Or at the very least, not being forced to take the horrible Tzeentch powers), would improve this situation. The Fact is, Thousand Sons got a small cost Decrease on the Sorcerer(12) and are still the worst possible Cult choice.

I misread the first part, which is pretty bad idea anyway. They excluded fortifications from shatter defenses and I agree with it. Just as bolster defenses cannot improve fortifications and I definatly agree with that call. The other part about altering the Force organisation was great for Iron warriors in 3.5 but is terrible for 6th ed play. its unnessasary and no other unit does this, HQ or not. If anything they should alter unit organisation something akin to a Master of the forges ability.

So, because no other unit does something, we can't start here? That's a poor argument. Also, how is it Terrible for 6th play? Just because you can take double FoC at 2000? Well, the sad part about that is, that alot of people play 1999+1, to avoid this. It also doesn't help at the point level below this. Do you really think it would be any worse than being able to swap around things in slots? It wouldn't be.

The Dark Apostle is awesome for support and buffs. Run one with a lord for rerolls on the boon table and crusader USR, its a great combo. Or run one with a large assault unit, the Aspiring champion gets rerolls on the boon table and they unit gets Crusader USR. OR even better run all three together for a damn powerful combat unit Heck chaplains and alike are powerful when used in combination with things not as one man army's. Perhaps the people you play with have no use for combat buffers, most space marine forces don't so I'm not supprised. Close combat oriented forces would benefit more from them for sure, just as mech heavy forces benefit from having Tech marines, MotF, warpsmiths etc etc. Its nothing new, people play what they will and will find use in things they find useful for their play style. Me personally will almost always roll a Dark Apostle with my lord and close combat squad. Im really tempted to get a land raider for the assault, but the crusader rule will get them into combat fast enough.

The Dark Apostle is not a competitive choice, though, in a rather crowded slot. Can you honestly say that having them in a 0-3 Elite slot would be bad? More people would take them, instead of appealing to a small niche crowd. As a HQ choice, it's just won't be taken in competitive lists, which is sad, because it's a decent unit (With Zealot, not Crusader) but it's in a bad slot. Competing with SCs, Lords/Sorcerers to unlock troops, and the Warpsmith. It's on the bottom of the totem pole.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

As per the refocus in the last CSM codex. 3.5 to 4th was almost a reverse flip of the whole codex. 6th ed CSM is a slower more gradual rebalance pulling back over powered units (read as what people viewed as the only useful units in the codex) while buffing less used units like noise marines. Its something they do regularly, I'm supprised you don't understand the concept.

Generally it's noted that the reverse flip is pretty bad to begin with, the rebalance was only in some area's whereas you can easily see some core issues arise from this new balance, such as the fact DP's aren't worth taking and have complete, wonky rules that actually hurt kitted out lords due to the boon table. Chosen, despite getting two attacks are horribly imbalanced when it comes to melee, as their wargear is far to expensive, leaving them in the previous role set up by 4th edition. Defilers got an unnecessary nerf in that they are now far more expensive and still worse then the standard space marine variants, land raiders are still horribly priced and bad for terminator travel, Thousand Sons are actually Worse then the 4th edition setup.

To say the least I understand that there can be balance over the editions, but it's not always gradual, it comes in waves and is as random as the boon table. There is no such thing as a rebalance, as things change in heavy ways throughout the editions.

I agree the revers flip was pretty bad, but refocusing on the troops was a great idea and it was what most of us asked for. The fact that a DP is a MC alone makes it a brutal choice, add its options to the mix and your have one of the most flexible MC, potentially FMCs, in the game. Granted you pay though the nose for those options they are still there. I fully support upping their T to six no questions asked, but thats as far as I'm willing to alter them presently. Any MC is a lethal unit, it makes no difference what its fighting for the most part.

Chosen have to pay a lot for their melee options, wow I'm shocked. Vanguard Vets pay alot for theirs too and they are a dedicated Melee unit. Wolf guard pay though the nose for theirs too and they occupie the same position in the force organisation slot and even equivilant rank thematically. The difference is Chosen can take 4-5 special weapons and/or a heavy at 5-6 models. 2 attacks base does not make them a melee unit, cheap or expensive melee options does not make them a melee unit. They have increased options for melee and can even make themselves better with Veterans of the Long war, Marks and Icons. With all those additions they would be pretty good at melee, but they would cost a fair bit. But if you use the present set up then you can roll in with the same kit and a bonus attack. Ace.

Really, defilers got nerfed? I must be reading a different codex because I love what they did to them, 5+ invulnerable save, daemon forge rule, 4HPs and the ability to regenerate a HP each turn. for just +45 points. Really? Then tack on the options it has, the power scourge is well worth the points, the dirge caster is worth the points if you plan to charge with it or anything near it. And even before that, what equivilant did the Space marines have? Am I missing somthing? When did they have a death walker from hell with an ordinance piece in its chest that could have up to 5 fething attacks?

Land raiders are still expensive, there no real supprise there. Terrible for TDA transport, I suppose but the same argument can be made for any land raider in any codex. And I fail to see how thousand sons got worse from the previous codex's variant, they remained mostly the same with a slight reduction in cost due to the sorcerer, at least you don't need to pay for powers any more, and you have access to the Icon. Sure Soul blaze isn't mind bogglingly good but the other 3 cult icons are not much better (baring the slaneesh icon which is significantly more expensive.).

With the 4th ed Dex it was pretty much a requirement to take a DW if you took a lord at all (read as if you didn't take a Daemon Prince with wings, MoS and Lash). It was boring as hell having every lord have the same daemon weapons, there was no character to them. With the increased rarity of 2+ Armour and making it harder to get AP2 weapons (let alone Init striking AP2 weapons) It makes sense to make them less available. Most Gods have a weapon or item available only available to someone marked as such so there is still flavour for the marked HQs. Just not in the same type of bland melee weapons. Really, I'd like a collar of khorne more than the axe, but hey I'll deal with an Axe that gives me rage for -1ws and BS when I already have rage from the MoK.

So now instead of five bland daemon weapons, your down to two bland melee weapons. One of which is for Khorne only, Progress?

Not to mention Slaanesh doesn't have a unique item.

Tally me up as another person who would like have seen daemon weapons for all 4 gods and the chosen keeping infiltrate. As for Daemon weapons, they don't all have to be equal for crying out loud, something I'd like to have seen:

Khorne: keep that axe, it's pretty boss
Nurgle: give him that mace, it practically screams Nurgle as is
Slaanesh: Power sword with rending
Tzeentch: At the start of each of the controlling player's turn, roll D3. Whatever the result, the weapon has the corresponding profile:
1: S5 AP3 Flamer with Torrent and Soul Blaze, roll a D6 before shooting, if roll a 1, suffers a wound with no armor saves allowed
2: S +2/User AP 3/4 power lance with Soul Blaze
3: The Daemon weapon becomes a nigh invulnerable shield, User gains a 2+ invulnerable save but cannot shoot nor attack in the assault phase. Any wound that is suffered results in Instant Death.

Chosen have to pay a lot for their melee options, wow I'm shocked. Vanguard Vets pay alot for theirs too and they are a dedicated Melee unit. Wolf guard pay though the nose for theirs too and they occupie the same position in the force organisation slot and even equivilant rank thematically. The difference is Chosen can take 4-5 special weapons and/or a heavy at 5-6 models. 2 attacks base does not make them a melee unit, cheap or expensive melee options does not make them a melee unit. They have increased options for melee and can even make themselves better with Veterans of the Long war, Marks and Icons. With all those additions they would be pretty good at melee, but they would cost a fair bit. But if you use the present set up then you can roll in with the same kit and a bonus attack. Ace.

And that's why you never see Vanguard Vets except in the very occasional blood angels list, the problem is that they are supposed to be a versatile unit that can do either melee or special weapons options, however with the costs of their melee puts them above terminator costs and terminators get those weapons far cheaper, so the costs are horrible and wasn't balanced properly, and now they are just more efficient shooters, you also forget that the wolf guard are that way because they can be added to other squads as well, and can take terminator armor for cheap. Versatility doesn't do much if your other options are to expensive to take.

Really, defilers got nerfed? I must be reading a different codex because I love what they did to them, 5+ invulnerable save, daemon forge rule, 4HPs and the ability to regenerate a HP each turn. for just +45 points. Really? Then tack on the options it has, the power scourge is well worth the points, the dirge caster is worth the points if you plan to charge with it or anything near it. And even before that, what equivilant did the Space marines have? Am I missing somthing? When did they have a death walker from hell with an ordinance piece in its chest that could have up to 5 fething attacks?

My mistake, that was supposed to be apart of the Land Raider argument, regardless of that fact they aren't worthwhile in melee, they are WS3 and can be downed by krak and melta grenades just as easily (Yes you can take scourge for better melee resistance, but then your hitting near land raider costs), had they gained AV13 they might've gained potential as a melee unit that had it's own unique place, but no they are outclassed by the maulerfiend as it's both cheaper, and does better in melee combat and gets there far faster, the cannon is the only thing that sets it apart as the forgefiend can make a better shooter, and if you want a mixed the helbrute is a far cheaper, and better option. It just isn't worthwhile with the better options in its same slot.

Land raiders are still expensive, there no real supprise there. Terrible for TDA transport, I suppose but the same argument can be made for any land raider in any codex. And I fail to see how thousand sons got worse from the previous codex's variant, they remained mostly the same with a slight reduction in cost due to the sorcerer, at least you don't need to pay for powers any more, and you have access to the Icon. Sure Soul blaze isn't mind bogglingly good but the other 3 cult icons are not much better (baring the slaneesh icon which is significantly more expensive.).

At the very least the space marines have the Crusader Variant, to be fair I would've loved to take bale flamers or Hades Cannon on that thing after hearing about them, as for Thousand Sons the thing of the matter is they are very slightly cheaper, but now you have a 50% chance of getting a worthless power on the chart, in 5th you could take one of three paths to roll on. Also the only worthless icon besides the soul flame icon is the Nurgle Fear Icon, as you must remember that the Khorne one grants Furious Charge and Rerollable charge range (Which is both thematic, and worthwhile) and Feel No Pain (always good). The problem is that unlike nurgle fear the soul flame has no benefit at all to the Thousand Sons, as they shouldn't be firing at low Armour units to begin with.

Well instead of 5 deamon weapons we now have 2 and several other options that are not daemon weapons including tactical options, a sword that almost assures the 'kill the enemy warlord' secondary objective, an AP3 torrent flamethrower, random additional spells. You know, things that are more than just a AP2 beat stick, THATS progress.

To be honest I didn't look but you can't take a doom siren on a Slaneesh HQ anymore? Nothing? I know they have their own mount like everyone else. There is most likely, somthing in the lists of war gear that slaneesh can get exclusivly. if not then valid point.

So one couldn't have exclusive daemon weapons that could've been changed up to become more then AP2 beat sticks? Progress could've changed them at the least to something more different like the maul. Though I did applaud the new artifacts, the problem is they are all very situational, and we could've used more. It just seems so limited in the grand scheme of chaos.

One can get the mount however, and you could never take a doom siren on a HQ, not since 3.5.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Chosen have to pay a lot for their melee options, wow I'm shocked. Vanguard Vets pay alot for theirs too and they are a dedicated Melee unit. Wolf guard pay though the nose for theirs too and they occupie the same position in the force organisation slot and even equivilant rank thematically. The difference is Chosen can take 4-5 special weapons and/or a heavy at 5-6 models. 2 attacks base does not make them a melee unit, cheap or expensive melee options does not make them a melee unit. They have increased options for melee and can even make themselves better with Veterans of the Long war, Marks and Icons. With all those additions they would be pretty good at melee, but they would cost a fair bit. But if you use the present set up then you can roll in with the same kit and a bonus attack. Ace.

And that's why you never see Vanguard Vets except in the very occasional blood angels list, the problem is that they are supposed to be a versatile unit that can do either melee or special weapons options, however with the costs of their melee puts them above terminator costs and terminators get those weapons far cheaper, so the costs are horrible and wasn't balanced properly, and now they are just more efficient shooters, you also forget that the wolf guard are that way because they can be added to other squads as well, and can take terminator armor for cheap. Versatility doesn't do much if your other options are to expensive to take.

More specifically that's why you'll never see Vanguard vets with stacks of power weapons. Wolf guard come out at reletive cost to chosen and chosen terminators, they always have they are the better comparison because they are so similar in rank, Force organisation slot and (for the most part) use. Keeping spending down on any unit is always tricky, some times its good to lash out and buy the options if you have a plan. But most of the time is a point sink thats hard to make pay for itself. Just the same as you can make a nigh unstoppable melee typhoon with Wolf guard, but you'd pay though the nose for it, read as pay Character costs for everything. Granted WG are also our characters so they should pay that high cost it doesn't preclude the fact that they are the same as any other vet unit but all of them have the +1 LD in addition to the +1 A and they only become a character if they are reassigned. My point is no vet unit has cheap close combat weapons, adding them to chosen does not preclude them from the same standards. Mind you as a khorne player I'm happy to have the melee options for chosen should I wish to use chosen reguardless of the high cost I know with a MoK on the charge or being charged they will be pretty lethal. Mix and match they don't have to be limited to all specials or all melee options.

The same argument could be made for warp talons and Mutilators, they are supposed melee units but are terrible units because they are so expensive for what you get. I liked the suggestion that Mutilators get rampage, it fits them well and makes them a mean melee unit. Warp talons could use something similar but they are fairly well adjusted and its hard to gauge how they would play most of the time. The other thing to remember witth all of them from chosen, vanguard and Wolf guard to warp talons and mutilators is they all have some mean power weapons, which spells doom for most things out of, and some things in, power armour. It makes a mediocre unit in to a melee tornado. Given how brutal it is even being able to ignore armour for the most part its understandable they are either limited, have a high cost or both. The only real exception to this seems to be GKs who get a force weapon and slew of other benefits for a simple 4 point increase. How that works is anyone's guess but they should not be the standard to hold other units to.

Really, defilers got nerfed? I must be reading a different codex because I love what they did to them, 5+ invulnerable save, daemon forge rule, 4HPs and the ability to regenerate a HP each turn. for just +45 points. Really? Then tack on the options it has, the power scourge is well worth the points, the dirge caster is worth the points if you plan to charge with it or anything near it. And even before that, what equivilant did the Space marines have? Am I missing somthing? When did they have a death walker from hell with an ordinance piece in its chest that could have up to 5 fething attacks?

My mistake, that was supposed to be apart of the Land Raider argument, regardless of that fact they aren't worthwhile in melee, they are WS3 and can be downed by krak and melta grenades just as easily (Yes you can take scourge for better melee resistance, but then your hitting near land raider costs), had they gained AV13 they might've gained potential as a melee unit that had it's own unique place, but no they are outclassed by the maulerfiend as it's both cheaper, and does better in melee combat and gets there far faster, the cannon is the only thing that sets it apart as the forgefiend can make a better shooter, and if you want a mixed the helbrute is a far cheaper, and better option. It just isn't worthwhile with the better options in its same slot.

Not worth while in melee? Yeah because 4+ attacks at S8 AP2 minimum with the ability to even the WS or better it with the scourge (on average) mounted on a dreadnought style walker with AN INVULNERABLE SAVE (Really, I play Bjorn, its not his AV13 that saves his metal hide) 4HPs and the ability to regenerate them is terrible in melee. Krak nades need to hit then roll a 6 to do anything, Melta bombs always go last and if you scourge them well enough they shouldn't be too much of an issue. Add to that charging a defiler in unsupported is always going to end in its death, that's just bad tactics. At 230 odd points for my chosen defiler I'd say its worth the points and then some. If it had AV13 then it would be near unstoppable, have an ordinance weapon and be brilliant in melee. Literally the only downside would be the near land raider cost. With that in mind you would never take ANYTHING else be cause it would be the best unit in the slot hands down, even in low point games all you'd need is a defiler and you'd curb stomp everything with one model...Sounds like my khorne lord from 3.5.

Last I checked the Maulerfiend has WS 3 as well, same AV, one less HP and I'm not sure if it can self repair. It had the potential to -D3 As witht he lasher tendrils option right? I'm also fairly sure they affect all models in BTB, friend or foe, so supporting it in melee will be difficult. How many attacks does it get again? Those points aside yes I agree that the Maulerfiend is a great low cost Melee daemon engine, would it out proform a defiler? Well no, the battle cannon is really the trump card that even the forgefiend cant match without coming close to Defiler cost and having 3 gets hot rolls to make, potentially glancing its self to death in one shooting phase. There's a few reasons I removed Bjorns Plasma cannon, the fore mentioned glance rule revision and the fact he can't fire it on overwatch. If I bothered with a Forgefiend I'd probably stick to the dakka version with no ectoplasma, even then I'd sooner use a havoc squad.

Hellbrutes are super fun, I'd roll hellbrutes with scourges along side Defilers stacking and spreading the -D3 WS, its evil. because they are in the elite slot (right?) they can be a nice cheap running mate with the defiler without them tripping over each other. And if everything gets focused on the Defiler then the brutes get to smash it up. If the brutes get targetd because they are easy prey by comparison then the defiler lives longer. All the while the zerkers they are running with are more than likely ignored or picked at with minimal effort. IF they get shot at with a vengeance then the Brutes and Defiler are going to make a mess. The defiler and anything capable of the destruction it is must be killable. If it was not then why would you take anything else? Who would fight an army with even one in it?

I agree the old 150 point one was worthless, bu8t the 195 point one is brutal and sturdy. Heck Roll a warpsmith behind it and get the chance for two HPs regained per turn. Notlike the warpsmith is terrible in close combat. Point of fact with a decent squad they'd be the perfect support infantry unit.

Land raiders are still expensive, there no real supprise there. Terrible for TDA transport, I suppose but the same argument can be made for any land raider in any codex. And I fail to see how thousand sons got worse from the previous codex's variant, they remained mostly the same with a slight reduction in cost due to the sorcerer, at least you don't need to pay for powers any more, and you have access to the Icon. Sure Soul blaze isn't mind bogglingly good but the other 3 cult icons are not much better (baring the slaneesh icon which is significantly more expensive.).

At the very least the space marines have the Crusader Variant, to be fair I would've loved to take bale flamers or Hades Cannon on that thing after hearing about them, as for Thousand Sons the thing of the matter is they are very slightly cheaper, but now you have a 50% chance of getting a worthless power on the chart, in 5th you could take one of three paths to roll on. Also the only worthless icon besides the soul flame icon is the Nurgle Fear Icon, as you must remember that the Khorne one grants Furious Charge and Rerollable charge range (Which is both thematic, and worthwhile) and Feel No Pain (always good). The problem is that unlike nurgle fear the soul flame has no benefit at all to the Thousand Sons, as they shouldn't be firing at low Armour units to begin with.

I will admit a new LR would be nice, but not needed. Its also something they can add later like they did with the storm talon. Which is pretty much the way they are headed. They have a good solid base with 6th ed rules and updating the codices to 6th along with releasing new units and their models with them. Something we disliked with the nid, blood angel and space wolf codices to name a few. We didn't like that they released rules without models, so they took that on and thats why we got them with the codex release this time.

They are refocusing back on the model range, they know its where they really make the money. If they give us a solid rule set and codex then release new models/units with rules after the fact then us older gamers that have extensive army's are going to be inclined to get the new model/unit for our army. Because we are sure as heck not buying many if at all any new models now. Why would we, we already have an army. But a shiney new unit that appeals to us or our play style, a new landraider down the line for instance, we are probably going to buy.

On the icons. I personally would never get the Icon of wrath, furious charge and a flat eroll is well worth the points considering a Command squads banner costs 15 and you get +1 tot he resolution alone. But its not as good as Fearless IMO. Even FnP I'd struggle with over fearless on non cult units. On cult units they are an added expense that reaps a slight bonus. To me the icon of wrath is 5 chain axes I could have taken or a plasma gun. The thousand sons were never great at killing marines in power armour even with the AP3, point of fact I was more inclined to shoot plague marines with two plasma guns over them, they did more damage. However with my guard that AP3 boltgun becomes an issue because it has the S for guard killing and the AP to negate every save I can get. Add soulblaze to the mix and thats just brutal.Same for most other races. Its not to say that inferno bolts are terible against marines, inf act they are definatly better than standard boltguns. But I would never depend on them killing anything more than Tt with a 3+ or worse save.

Also fear and sould blaze are more like added benefits, both cults have increased survivability due to their marks and have some wicked options given to them per inferno bolts and plague knives. Add a cheap sorcerer here and some blight grenades there and you round them out to be an effective unit that is just as good as it use to be but with some extra bits. Then on top of that you can Add an Icon. Khorne are only good in assault, they are best on the first turn of any combat and they have to pay for their special wargear they have no rifles at all and they already have furious charge so all your paying for is a reroll of the charge distance and +1 resolution, pass. Slaneesh needed a USR that would be good at range and in melee, they were a really confused cult before this codex because they had heavy weapons, but they could fleet, but had no major melee options, but they had +1 init which was only really good in assault. Nothing meshed and it made them confusing to play. Giving them FnP allowed them to play at all ranges with some use. Sit back and line troop it with shooting weapons, FNp is awesome for that no one does this better than plague marines in the codex and its good in assault too. They pay though the nose for it but it made slaneesh units competitive witht he other cults.

Well instead of 5 deamon weapons we now have 2 and several other options that are not daemon weapons including tactical options, a sword that almost assures the 'kill the enemy warlord' secondary objective, an AP3 torrent flamethrower, random additional spells. You know, things that are more than just a AP2 beat stick, THATS progress.

To be honest I didn't look but you can't take a doom siren on a Slaneesh HQ anymore? Nothing? I know they have their own mount like everyone else. There is most likely, somthing in the lists of war gear that slaneesh can get exclusivly. if not then valid point.

So one couldn't have exclusive daemon weapons that could've been changed up to become more then AP2 beat sticks? Progress could've changed them at the least to something more different like the maul. Though I did applaud the new artifacts, the problem is they are all very situational, and we could've used more. It just seems so limited in the grand scheme of chaos.

One can get the mount however, and you could never take a doom siren on a HQ, not since 3.5.

I'm not, and never have been, a big slaneeshy fan. Until this codex they were always a non entity, a joke cult outside of daemons.The new artifacts are no different than 3.5 style daemon weapons. I loved the Kai Gun, I dig the daemon forged weapons and I could easily support something slaneesh exclusive, daemon weapon or not. Just out right asking for a beat stick is boring. A flute that has a similar effect to lash would be awesome and slaneshy. A whip style weapon that did any thing from have a ranged profile in addition to a melee profile to being counted as engaged if your more than 2" away from a model in BTB to an entangle ability. A lance weapon with the lance special rule would be a hoot. An aura that has random effects from passification to hyperactivity would fit the bill. She who thirsts ability that makes the character and or unit cause fear in all eldar and grants prefered enemy eldar or something. Seriously its not hard to come up with a few slaneeshy ideas that don't involve a daemon weapon.

I would have been happy if Khorne, or anyone other than the special characters, didn't get a daemon weapon I wouldn't mind. Sure it makes a big difference in assault, where khorn is supposed to excel because we don't get psykers, but not needed. I'd dif the axe if it wasnt a daemon weapon and didn't have the +D6 attacks. The mace too, they are both brutal without the bonus attacks. The flamer is tempting, I might have to remodel my lord to have a flamer weapon of some sort, its evil.

If anything I would have liked to have seen no daemon weapons aside from special characters, bugger off the axe and give us the collar of khorne back. even if it was a 4+ rather than a 2+. Slap slaneesh with something like DEs combat drugs or something and be done with it, I'd rather have none then listen to people complain that the most melee oriented cult gets the only Mark restricted Daemon weapon.

I'm done with this whine fest, good god I've never seen or hear so much complaining within a week ot two of a codex drop, well maybe the last CSM codex. But even then it was obvious that 3.5 was going and never, ever ever ever coming back with good reason. It was almost as bad as GKs is now, except GKs has uber troops AND HQs, not just HQs.

update DA

Dark Aposltes imho would not have any affect on xenos. They are speaking in some human language and their knowledge / mannerisms would only translate to the same speciese. They are space marines.

Thus I suggest

At the start of any chaos turn a DA can begin to chant. All units within 6" must take a LD check at -1 for each check they have had to take including this one. If they fail, they lose ATSKNF until the beginning of the next chaos turn.

Obviously units without ATSKNF need not test, as they cannot lose somethign they do not have.
The first test they have to take is Ld-1, the next Ld-2 and the next Ld-3. The longer they listen the more likely they are to lose faith in the emperor.

Add in a 20 point upgrade for a massive megaphone that increases the range to 12" and add a static -1 to the test. so first test -2 second test -3 third test -4 if within 6"

Thus if you invest 300 points in 2 dark apostles you could reliably strip ATSKNF from nilla marines. It would be expensive though, and DA are not the most survivable units in the game.

Really my biggest gripe with the new dex is that we got all these awesome new toys, but still no cult terminators.

As a long time Chaos/CSM player (since 2nd Edition baby), there's a lot in this Codex I like and love and just as much that I don't like.

CHAOS BOON TABLE
One of my biggest beefs with the new Codex is the Boon Table. The concept is cool but I have two major complaints and those are directed at Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis. Firstly, Independent Characters (including special characters) should either get to re-roll Spawnhood or simply count it as Unworthy Offering. Its hard to spend points on a Chaos Lord when there's a chance his wargear is going to be worthless if he kills an enemy Character and gets a bad roll (doesn't seem like much of an incentive to me).

As for Dark Apotheosis it should give more benefits than it lists. For example, he should be able to keep any Wargear a Daemon Prince could have and, if he had a Jump Pack, should be gifted Wings instead. Its supposed to be this great honour to become a Daemon Prince yet with how the Boon Table is getting a Dark Apotheosis result can more often then not be a hindering rather than an actual blessing.

MARK OF TZEENTCH
Works pretty much as before...but only a 6+ invul save? Really? Why would I ever want to give my Troops a Mark of Tzeentch for a negligible invulnerable save? A points increase for something that it going to save them less than 17% of the time simply isn't worth it, especially when the points cost is on par with Marks that give Rage + Counter-attack or +1 Initiative, far superior options for the same points cost. This is a simple fix too, just reword it so it gives models without an invulnerable save a 5+ invulnerable save again. At that level I'd be willing to pay the current costs for it.

POSSESSED
I may be a Chaos player but I haaate randomization. You can't rely on it which makes the unit itself unreliable. I'd rather see a return to allowing Possessed units to pick which Mutation they want for a points cost rather than this Russian roulette methodology which makes them tactically unsound.

MUTILATORS
They need to have the Slow and Purposeful rule removed, they simply aren't a good assault unit with it. Also their weapon options are a bit lame, I mean why would you ever take anything but the pair of Chainfists or Lightning Claws? The weapon options should be...
- Thunder Hammer
- Chainfist
- Pair of Lightning Claws
- Pair of Power Axes
- Pair of Power Mauls

This way you can either choose to get the +1 Attack for having two lesser close combat weapons (or a pair of lightning claws) or get the beefiness of a Thunder Hammer or Chainfist. Not sure if this alone would fix this unit, but it would be starting them onto the right track of being useful.

WARP TALONS
These guys simply aren't worth their points costs. Nothing major, just that they are a bit too expensive right now. I'd say drop them down to about 26-28 points per model and give them Attacks 2 and they'd be a bit better and at least a bit more appealing, as right now Raptors are just a far superior choice due to their much more affordable points costs and versatility.

HELBRUTES
Need clarification to their Fire Frenzy crazed result as right now they can Immobilize themselves in close combat. Needs to be reworded so that if the Helbrute is in close combat when it rolls a 1 it is not immobilized.

AHRIMAN
He lost quite a bit of potency since last edition. I'd like to see him be able to have all of the Tzeentch powers by default and then get 4 Powers from the other listed Disciplines. To me he'd be well worth his points cost then.

TYPHUS
He's just not that good anymore and hits his own units now with Destroyer Hive. At the very least they should make it so that Destroyer Hive doesn't effect friendly units with the Mark of Nurgle. He could still use a bit more work than that, but that's just a start to get him on the right track.

FABIUS BILE
He just needs to be reworked. He has very close combat-focused wargear yet his melee weapons are horrible. Also, and this is just me speaking here, but I'd prefer it if he could make more than one unit into Enhanced Warriors, though I do like that they removed all the randomization nonsense from the Enhanced Warriors.

DAEMONIC POSSESSION
This is absolutely horrible wargear for transports and I seriously see no reason to even take it. It reduces the vehicle's BS and has a chance to eat your own units...why exactly? To regenerate Hull Points and to let it ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+ (no longer a guaranteed thing over last edition)? This wargear was definitely not very well thought out. It would be fine if they removed the whole eating your own units bit with It Will Not Die and maybe counting the vehicle as a Daemon for the 5+ invul save (maybe), but the whole eating your units thing just makes this not only a waste of points but, if it was a Rhino, makes the transport even more of a deathtrap then it already was.


Other than those grievances I love the new Codex.

EDIT: Oh and I second what Kain said, sad that we don't get Cult Terminators. :(

Ive played 5 games against the new codex and have had my butt handed back to me in 3 of them. I think the codex is just fine, with the following exception...
The Mauler fiend and the other daemon engine should have been Toughness creatures , not vehicles. Two lucky 6's and that beast is done...It should be more like the Dreadknight.

New Chaos is nice, not extraordinary.

Imperial LR variants 9+(counting codex and FW)
Chaos LR variants 2; Codex and Protheus variant...

I think its enough to point out that GW hates Chaos, period.

The Few suggestions i could make.

-Don't touch the DP Stats, they are fine, just add EW and be good, maybe adds another movement option then wings, like Deamonic speed, the Dp then moves like cavalry.
-Move Dark Apostle and Warpsmith to Elites, maybe make them 0-3 units?...
-Give a 2+ save option for HQ's.
-Having something a bit extra to replace Psy powers for Khornate characters, like Martial traits like what the GK Brotherhood Champion can do.
-Had gear specific to Dark Apostle to change his role, to make him a Surgeon for khornate players, and other stuffs for the other Gods, each of those options could change the way the Apostle works, while still conserving his basic purpose
-grants Acces to the "Elite->Troops" of Cult Marines with a Deamon prince, after all a DP is the greatest Champion of the dark Gods.
-LIke many others had said, change the way the Spawnhood and Dark Apotheosis works for Named Characters, Named Characters could reroll any of those results, other HQ's are affected as normal, but in the case of a Dark Apotheosis they keep their Artifacts,gears and Weapons, he does not keep his bike or termi armor, if he had a jump pack et count has having wings.
-Add a buyable Veteran Abilities to Elite choice such as Chosen and Termies; tank Hunter, Shrouded/Discretion,Acute Sense etc.
-Give the LR as a dedicated transport to Chosen.
- A Lord/Sorceror can take a bodyguard of Chosen/Termies, they count as one HQ choice.
-Give Possesed grenades and bolt pistols, even if they have mutated, there is no reason that their pistols din't fuse with their arms and that they can't shoot it, the Possesed kit as an arm that shoots a fire beam after all...
-For Mutilators i think we should complelty go as far as possible from the "Mutated terminator" concept, and make it something more like a Cyber-deamonic Archoflagelant/Cyber-Gladiator, with a 3+/5++ save, Fleet, Deamon, DS, and their Weapon Morph, also the unit can take up to 5 models.
-Helbrute should have acces to Hades Autocanon, and Deamon Engines in the dex should be able to be dedicated to a Chaos god, the Crazed rule should also have the line"...it also gets a Crazed token if the helbrut does at least 1 casualty this turn..."
-The Chaos reward list should have Collars of Khorne, wich give the Adamentium Will to the wearer +5pts.
-The Melee wargear list should include Axe of Khorne; Power weapon that adds an extra A for each 6 made to hit, and has long has you make 6's 15pts.
-Zerkers should be 2A base and 2 Models in the squad should have the option to buy a Flamer/Melta OR Power Weapons, Eviscerator, the champion can take a Collar of Khorne for +5pts.
-There should be another rhino variant, Open Topped,only weapons option are Combi-bolter, for 45pts base cost.
-Addition of Dreadclaws, has they are in the IA book, they are good, only changing it as a dedicated transport and not has a FA choice.
-Chaos Bikers could be able to exchange their bikes to a deamonic steed of the approriate Mark/God relation for an appropriate cost.
-Heldrakes should have 2 Hades cannon base, their cost could be upped to 185-190pts base, and they could buy the Baleflamer extra for +15pts.
-LR weapons variants; Hades Autocanon sponsons, Ectoplasma Sponsons,2 Reaper Autocanons in exchange of the TL Heavy Bolters and an option for Frag nades on it like the Crusader.
-Maulerfiend should have WS4 and Rampage, when taking the Mecaflagellum option he counts has having Def and Off nades.
-Defiler cost should be revised to 180pts, and he could exchange all his weapons bare the battle canon for extra CCW for free, and take a Power scourge for +10pts.

The Dedication to the Gods for Deamon Engines could be;

Khorne- The deamon Engine gets Rampage, if the Deamon Engine allready has Rampage he Gets Armorbane rule, if an Heldrake is dedicated to Khorne he makes 1D6+1 Vector Strikes.
Tzeentch-the Deamon Engine rethrow failed to hits of 1.
Nurgle-the Deamon Engine rethrow his It will not die test.
Slaanesh-...don't really know what to do with this one..., reroll charge distance?, count has having Def and OFF nades? or simply +1I?, in the case of the Heldrake Aerial Acrobat?

Also Blades of Destruction should give some extra for Walkers, like +1D6 Hammer of Wrath when assaulting or rethrow of ONE To HIt OR To Wound/Pen Dice per combat turn.