Kharn the betrayer from my understanding is a close combat beast even by space marines standards with or without his weapons.
I have listened to alot of chaos players go on and on about how awesome he is not in game but in fluff and in battle so this has made me ask this question.. Who is his loyalist equivalent?
Who amongst the space marines from whichever chapter could equal or surpass him in hand to hand combat with or without weapons?
It depends really. In sheer crazy maul your face off combat, no mortal, chaos or not can match him, its his thing. However, his biggest strength is also his biggest weakness, which could be used by someone who is a smart and tactical genius against him, as long as they don't get fethed up first.
You know, my opinion here isn't all that great because I haven't read that much of the individual fluff behind any of those I am about to name, however, I still think they all apply.
From the pre-heresy days before Kharn was truly chaos, I think Sigismund (Kharn's oath brother if I remember right) and Loken both would have been a tough match up for Kharn.
As for the year 40k, I would say Ragnar Blackmane of the space wolves would match up well. I honestly can't think of any others off the top of my head... Maybe Hervald Strom of the Iron Knights, as all we know about him as far as I know is that he won the Feast of Blades competition two times in a row, something that was completely unheard of.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
I'd like to say Sigismund, purely for the image in my head.
Noble, zealous knight vs blood-crazed gladiatorial combatant.
Also, I think it's mentioned in Butcher's Nails that Sigismund is Kharn's oath brother, and have often sparred together whenever their two legions worked together. Someone who is able to go multiple bouts with Kharn (even in training) has to be able to be his equal. Plus, Sigismund would probably know/be familiar with a lot of Kharn's moves.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Thanks for the my daily laugh.....
In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?
So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me
Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.
I really don't understand why people think Khan has no equal. From what i gather, Khan is on the same level as that of a 1st captain from any of the other legions (which is no mean feat.)
So i consider the likes of Sigismund, Raldoron and Kaesoron to be a fair match for Khan.
Redcruisair wrote: I really don't understand why people think Khan has no equal. From what i gather, Khan is on the same level as that of a 1st captain from any of the other legions (which is no mean feat.)
So i consider the likes of Sigismund, Raldoron and Kaesoron to be a fair match for Khan.
Kharn literally fought his primarch and lived to tell the tale, his kill count more than likely is in the millions.....who else even comes remotely close to that? what other character in the entirety of 40k has ever hit on 2s? His weapon skill is near unmatched, maybe back in the times of the heresy when its believed that Sigismund struck Kharn down at terra, but he has had an eternity of martial honing after that point. Kharn has not stopped fighting since Terra
Both Sigismund and Amit are highly respected in the World Eater fight pits as their combat styles run closest to the World Eater's own. I feel both could match Kharn in ferocity prior to him going completely insane following the salvaging of Prospero. Afterwards, however, I don't feel anyone could reach his level without losing themselves to madness the way Kharn did.
jareddm wrote: Both Sigismund and Amit are highly respected in the World Eater fight pits as their combat styles run closest to the World Eater's own. I feel both could match Kharn in ferocity prior to him going completely insane following the salvaging of Prospero. Afterwards, however, I don't feel anyone could reach his level without losing themselves to madness the way Kharn did.
This completely, there was a time when he was more down to earth....that time is long gone
Daston wrote: What about bran redmaw he isn't exactly the most stable of combatants and is likley to throw himself into combat in bloodlust as kharn
From all that I know of Bran Redmaw, I always got the impression that he was more of a hunter, that stalked then struck with wulfen ferocity, not so much a I could "carelessatude" commonly found among World Eaters kin
In one of my first games with my GK, crowe fought kharn in a faceoff. After about 4 rounds of fighting (2 turns), crowe died after failing his invul and heroic sacrificed himself to kill Kharn. (his immunity to psy powers seem to fall into a loophole as the psy power in this case is cast on crowe and crowe just stabs kharn with a normal attack with special properties, or at least that's how we played it)
Since then, I've always considered them to be equal since that's what happened on the table
Would that reasoning not mean kharn is vulnerable to force weapons? They are not cast on him, and it is essnetially a normal attack.
Not seen his rules but it sounds a bit of a squiffy interpretation to me.
As for loyalists... Sanguinor? Maybe mephiston? Anyone encased in a dreadnought?
Eetion wrote: Would that reasoning not mean kharn is vulnerable to force weapons? They are not cast on him, and it is essnetially a normal attack.
Not seen his rules but it sounds a bit of a squiffy interpretation to me.
As for loyalists... Sanguinor? Maybe mephiston? Anyone encased in a dreadnought?
His rules specifically state that force weapons counts as normal power weapons when used against him. He has armourbane so dreadnoughts will get ripped apart by him (done this many times myself )
If you're going by fluff, even bad fluff, then I guess the only one i could think of having an actual chance is Draigo. Only because an entity of the warp that is loyal to the Emperor and can carve his name on a Daemon Primarch heart should be able to beat down Kharn with ease.
Then again I like to disregard Draigos existence from a fluff standpoint as much as possible for the primarch ridiculousness and the fact he is a daemon not a SM anymore.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Thanks for the my daily laugh.....
In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?
So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me
Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.
Considering if arjac charges in before he declares he could just throw his hammer and slay kharn with a pretty high probably with a percision strike is pretty humorus to me too... LOS is only a 1 in 6 chance of failing but it is still enough to cause a very big cry baby CSM player in moments. Assuming he is lucky enough to dodge the hammer when Arjac accepts or issues the challenge Kharn yet again has a chance to be worthless to the group or just straight up start killing his own unit. Arjac is able to take punishment very well and you should never underestimate the abilities of 3+ saves, because if nothing else Arjac's company will win the battle in the end even if he manages be killed in the first round. But the sheer potential of 1 strike and ur dead clearly makes him an equal for Kharn, because luck or unluck doesn't matter no one is "unbeatable" long as all it takes it 1 strike to deal with him.
Kharn is too unstable to look into generalities like this, you forget he could roll a 1 and not even attack, or
As far as ordinary relatively human-sized people in the general sense of the universe who could beat Kharn in single combat by fluff, I'd recommend trying Crowe, Jain Zar, Karandras, Drazhar/Arhra/whatever he's calling himself now, or Lelith. Most regular Space Marines aren't specialized in close combat the way Kharn is, the characters in the Codex are mostly noted as being great leaders as opposed to great individual swordsmen. The Phoenix Lords are obvious choices to go to for beating on Kharn given that they've been killing people in duels since long before Kharn was ever created, and Lelith is the woman so impossibly good at stabbing things that she can kill you with her hair.
Actually on the tabletop, I'd bet on anyone with higher Initiative than Kharn to beat him, really. He can do a silly amount of damage, but he's not tough enough to weather Lelith, Crowe, or a Phoenix Lord. Heck, last I checked you can't Deny the Witch a Heroic Sacrifice, which means that even if Kharn kills Crowe he has a two in three chance of dying anyway.
Bottom line: Kharn's fluff may talk up a storm about his unbeatability, but in practice his main advantage is that he's really cheap. Keep him away from character-killers.
Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.
Melissia wrote: Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.
I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.
High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.
Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.
DemetriDominov wrote: I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.
High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.
Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.
Why not go back a good 10,000 years to Helbrecht's predecessor, and say Sigismund instead? Or are we only talking about loyalists in 40k, strictly?
Melissia wrote: Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.
DemetriDominov wrote: I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.
High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.
Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.
Why not go back a good 10,000 years to Helbrecht's predecessor, and say Sigismund instead? Or are we only talking about loyalists in 40k, strictly?
Well Kharn battered down the walls of the Imperial palace and its defenders before succumbing to his wounds while Sigismund defended the Emperor. Then, Sigismund would have likely utterly destroyed Kharn, becuase he had only just earned enough of the Blood God's favor to be sustained through death. Now, 10,000 years after Sigismund's own death, Kharn rages on with more experience in battle than anyone else. If, by a twist of fate, Sigismund were somehow transported in time to face the modern Kharn, the last part of my quote remains true. If that didn't happen, then I guess we go with Helbrecht for now.
DemetriDominov wrote: I figure that Kharn is the Chaos embodiment of Achilles,chosen among the Gods, has but one weakness, is nearly invincible in cc, and his loyalist equivalent would embody Hector. This therefore negates all but chapter masters, as Hector led the Trojan army. Apparently Hector was devoted to the core, a stalwart defender, fanatically loyal to his kingdom, and a bit of a maniac himself. Most importantly, their duel is that of legend, with Hector losing. If all this is true, then, in my mind there's really only one Chapter Master that can possibly be Kharn's destined equal.
High Marshal Helbrecht of the Black Templars.
Even if I'm wrong, what's to be sure is that whoever it is, it would likely be the best duel of martial skill imaginable. Ever.
Why not go back a good 10,000 years to Helbrecht's predecessor, and say Sigismund instead? Or are we only talking about loyalists in 40k, strictly?
Well Kharn battered down the walls of the Imperial palace and its defenders before succumbing to his wounds while Sigismund defended the Emperor. Then, Sigismund would have likely utterly destroyed Kharn, becuase he had only just earned enough of the Blood God's favor to be sustained through death. Now, 10,000 years after Sigismund's own death, Kharn rages on with more experience in battle than anyone else. If, by a twist of fate, Sigismund were somehow transported in time to face the modern Kharn, the last part of my quote remains true. If that didn't happen, then I guess we go with Helbrecht for now.
So considering it took days of titan weapons volley to crack the imperial palace... i highly doubt kharn would make a dent... also kharn hasn't had a true 10,000 years time flows differently in the warp. No denying it was long but not relative to physical time
Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion, honed to perfection over countless centuries of battle and strife. Thread closed
On a slightly less biased note, in his heresy days the likes of lucius, loken and some others would probably rival him.
These days I think you'd be hard pushed to find someone to rival him, the likes of Calgar, Shrike etc, whilst being able to put up a good fight I do feel like Kharn still does have a real edge.
Calgar or Dante have the best shot of Chapter Masters IMO. Not counting Grey Knights, Crowe could possibly manage it, Draigo could kill Kharn with one hand while taking a piss with the other.
Honestly, while Kharn has a lot of hype, I can't really think of a whole lot that he's really done to earn it, in terms of fighting strong opponents. So it is hard to get an accurate gauge.
He did do a number on Loken and Torgaddon two on one though, which is impressive.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Thanks for the my daily laugh.....
In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?
So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me
Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.
Considering if arjac charges in before he declares he could just throw his hammer and slay kharn with a pretty high probably with a percision strike is pretty humorus to me too... LOS is only a 1 in 6 chance of failing but it is still enough to cause a very big cry baby CSM player in moments. Assuming he is lucky enough to dodge the hammer when Arjac accepts or issues the challenge Kharn yet again has a chance to be worthless to the group or just straight up start killing his own unit. Arjac is able to take punishment very well and you should never underestimate the abilities of 3+ saves, because if nothing else Arjac's company will win the battle in the end even if he manages be killed in the first round. But the sheer potential of 1 strike and ur dead clearly makes him an equal for Kharn, because luck or unluck doesn't matter no one is "unbeatable" long as all it takes it 1 strike to deal with him.
Kharn is too unstable to look into generalities like this, you forget he could roll a 1 and not even attack, or
Arjack one lucky strike ( Kharn is down ),not to mention Grimnar (GK grandmaster in one slap)...
I would love to actually know what Kharn's kill counter is sitting at just now, it annoyed me that they keep mentioning it clicking every time he kills in the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook but they never tell you what the value is :(
I wouldn't say Kharn gets any more hype really, no more than any other chaos character anyways.
It's been 10,000 years since the Heresy and he did well there.
He's the chosen champion of the god of battle and slaughter.
There really isn't an equal when it comes down to sheer fighting prowess, I think.
The Achilles comparison is valid - aristea, the Homeric idea of courage in battle, was actually described by one of my favorite authors as a kind of "berzerker kill-fest where the hero in question slaughters a hundred, two hundred men in one furious moment."
That almost perfectly describes the way I feel Kharn is in the fluff.
I've never really found Kharn to be all that impressive personally,showings wise, but that's more to do with personal bias I suppose.
After getting his ass handed to him by Loken I've never been able to take him all that seriously. When Kharn gets pinned to the dozerblades of the Land Raider, the book describes him as growling and frothing on the dozer blades while the Land Raider carries him away. lol...
I find Kharn to be pretty impressive but then I'm biased the other way BlaxicanX.
I wouldn't say Loken handed his ass to him, also considering Kharn survived this and went on to be probably one of the most powerful World Eaters and possibly the greatest champion Khorne has ever had/will have.
In terms of martial prowess and fighting ability I think you'd be hard pushed to beat Kharn, although I think Lucius would probably have good odds (although he's not a loyalist anymore.) As in terms of a one on one, Lucius has to rank pretty high I'd think.
So considering it took days of titan weapons volley to crack the imperial palace... i highly doubt kharn would make a dent... also kharn hasn't had a true 10,000 years time flows differently in the warp. No denying it was long but not relative to physical time
Sorry, I minced words, yes, he didn't personally chop down the walls at the Imperial palace, that'd just be silly. He did however lead the charge and chop down hundreds, if not thousands of loyalists defenders in an orgy of blood that had him gain enough of Khorne's favor to not let him die though he was pretty much Swiss cheese by the end of the fight.
True, but to be fair he may have even had a much longer time than 10,000 years. The warp is unpredictable, and the only thing constant is that Kharn has had an infinitely longer amount of time than Sanguinius to train, because Sanguinius is dead.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I don't know.
It's been 10,000 years since the Heresy and he did well there.
He's the chosen champion of the god of battle and slaughter.
There really isn't an equal when it comes down to sheer fighting prowess, I think.
The Achilles comparison is valid - aristea, the Homeric idea of courage in battle, was actually described by one of my favorite authors as a kind of "berzerker kill-fest where the hero in question slaughters a hundred, two hundred men in one furious moment."
That almost perfectly describes the way I feel Kharn is in the fluff.
And remember, though Homer (a Greek) depicted Hector (his enemy, a Trojan) as a coward in his death, the battle between Achilles and Hector probably looked something closer to this (PG-13):
Spoiler:
In all actuality, if Kharn truly is Khorne's Achillies, he has no equal in combat, only a vengeful boltround to Kharn's face is really going to stop him.
In regards to single combat, there's few equivalents to Kharn. Lucius is a relatively even match, working out the math Kharn has a slight edge. Hespirax is in a similar situation. Kharn will trash Typhus where Lucius will struggle to do anything at all. Essentially Kharn is a fire and forget weapon, you point him at someone and he destroys them. As a battle leader, he leaves a lot to be desired, but as a melee fighter, in single combat, there's relatively little that will stand up to him. Lysander will do so rather well, as can Calgar, but they've got 3++sv's and S8/10 combat weapons, they aren't really "duelists" but overblown wrecking balls.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Problem is that Kharn's fluff is no longer truly properly reflected, he really should have Eternal Warrior. In the HH books, he gets run over by a rhino and carried off impaled and apparently dead on its dozer-blade spikes, lives through that then falls again apparently dead during the siege of the Emperor's palace, etc. He used to be immune to Instant Death, then the 4E book came along and the new book basically amounts to a minor facelift of the 4E book.
Also, if Kharn gets off a charge on Arjac, on average Arjac will die without ever swinging. 7 attacks, hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's, Kharn will inflict two such wounds typically through the Stormshield. Without a charge, it's a more 50/50 prospect.
Kharn is the embodiment of close combat for the gods of Chaos.
He is an immensely powerful "bogeyman" for the loyalists and he serves his purpose. The thing is, nearly ANYONE of the loyalists could beat Kharn with the quality of writing that exists now-a-days. The loyalists, by the nature of the novels, are protected by extremely powerful plot armor. No popular main character would ever be allowed to lose to Kharn because to lose to him is FINAL. Well, that is, unless this is their intent. Kharn is 40k's perfect plot thread ender.
It is also important to remember which Kharn we speak of, pre- or post heresy or whether you're talking about the game or the book fluff.
That said, as much as I don't want to mention his name and try to ignore his existence, Draigo is clearly everyones nemesis. Be you a demon-primarch or the Chaos gods lord of combat.
I mean, I agree Kharn should be a rompmachine in one on one, martial combat, but he is just lacking the showings that some other Chaos Champions have, like Ahriman or Abaddon.
Vaktathi wrote: In regards to single combat, there's few equivalents to Kharn. Lucius is a relatively even match, working out the math Kharn has a slight edge. Hespirax is in a similar situation. Kharn will trash Typhus where Lucius will struggle to do anything at all. Essentially Kharn is a fire and forget weapon, you point him at someone and he destroys them. As a battle leader, he leaves a lot to be desired, but as a melee fighter, in single combat, there's relatively little that will stand up to him. Lysander will do so rather well, as can Calgar, but they've got 3++sv's and S8/10 combat weapons, they aren't really "duelists" but overblown wrecking balls.
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Problem is that Kharn's fluff is no longer truly properly reflected, he really should have Eternal Warrior. In the HH books, he gets run over by a rhino and carried off impaled and apparently dead on its dozer-blade spikes, lives through that then falls again apparently dead during the siege of the Emperor's palace, etc. He used to be immune to Instant Death, then the 4E book came along and the new book basically amounts to a minor facelift of the 4E book.
Also, if Kharn gets off a charge on Arjac, on average Arjac will die without ever swinging. 7 attacks, hitting on 2's, wounding on 2's, Kharn will inflict two such wounds typically through the Stormshield. Without a charge, it's a more 50/50 prospect.
why is everyone's answer Eternal Warrior? Every freaking time ETERNAL WARRIOR it's drives me batty to know that everyone thinks that solves the problem. I mean in fluff being run over by a rhino doesn't sound so bad when you consider the actual abilities of power armor combined with chaos. But is he going to live from a weapon with creates super heated and electrified craters upon crashing into a surface.... probably not. The fact is Kharn has died ALOT he it to his own stupidity of fighting a squad until overwhelmed and dies, standing defiantly in the way of a Krak missle or attempting to take on a dreadnought in the name of Khorne. These are all incredibly valid ways to kill Kharn ntot o mention Khorne granting ANY follow Eternal warrior or the ability to have it is just stupid beyond conceivably.
Khorne loves sacrifice, survival of the fittest, slaughter and murder WHY WOULD KHORNE even be interested in a champion who cannot die? The thrill of combat of any attack being your last the pumping of that glorious blood through your chest increasing to avoid the mortal blow. He loves Kharn because of what he reaps as still a mundane but insane space marine who wields a weapon of his primarch. (to my understanding Gorechild was wielded by Angron if not i apologize)
If Khorne ever has a follower who gets Eternal warrior as a rule I will lose all respect for the bloody gladiatorial aspect of Khorne's religion. And I find it sad that people who follow one of the most Iconic groups in 40k be them orks or Khorne worshippers do not follow the tenants of their own fluff. It would be like Orks becoming accurate shooters rather than pray and spray it just doesn't make a lick of sense.
Rysaer wrote: Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion
Which means he's good at screaming at any rate. I'm sure we can find someone who can make him scream more.
Khorne isn't just about rage/screaming though, if you listen to the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook and various other books (Liber chaotica: Khorne), Khorne is also about the living embodiment of battle, bloodlust and honour. Khorne tends to favour those who fight with honour. He doesn't grant his boon to those who let others do their fighting for them. Kharn only fights those who can fight back, especially those who fight well.
Kharn, screaming aside, is a brutal and efficient warrior with the blood gods favour and probably well more than 10,000 years of experience in battle, brutal fighting and killing, I think it'd be hard task to find anybody else with this level of skill, experience and ability.
The man took a dozer blade to the chest and had a kill-counter installed in his helmet. What more do you want? He's Khorn's avatar, second only to Angron, a primarch-turned-daemon prince. Most violent man of the 41st millenium
Rysaer wrote: Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion
Which means he's good at screaming at any rate. I'm sure we can find someone who can make him scream more.
Khorne isn't just about rage/screaming though, if you listen to the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook and various other books (Liber chaotica: Khorne), Khorne is also about the living embodiment of battle, bloodlust and honour. Khorne tends to favour those who fight with honour. He doesn't grant his boon to those who let others do their fighting for them. Kharn only fights those who can fight back, especially those who fight well.
Kharn, screaming aside, is a brutal and efficient warrior with the blood gods favour and probably well more than 10,000 years of experience in battle, brutal fighting and killing, I think it'd be hard task to find anybody else with this level of skill, experience and ability.
Honor... Khorne... are you serious? tha...that is the most...redicu...you can't be serious right?
that is like saying the Unibomber is as honorable as Musashi... They both killed many men whats the difference... honor is the difference.
Khorne's tennats are murder...there is no honor in his will he doesn't accept challenges because he wants to fight one on one he is furious someone challenged him nothing more. Why is it I am educating Chaos on it's own gods!?
here look at this... i haven't seen a better explaination of Khorne in many years other than this!
This is Khrone... sacrifices, murder, terror and grim trophies to show what has fallen to Khorne.
you want honor, hate to say it but that resides with the Space Marines...
As far as Orks, we kill for fun like a child who was never raised properly and enjoys hearing the squirming of a baby kitten cry out in pain.
DemetriDominov wrote: Well Kharn battered down the walls of the Imperial palace and its defenders before succumbing to his wounds while Sigismund defended the Emperor. Then, Sigismund would have likely utterly destroyed Kharn, becuase he had only just earned enough of the Blood God's favor to be sustained through death. Now, 10,000 years after Sigismund's own death, Kharn rages on with more experience in battle than anyone else. If, by a twist of fate, Sigismund were somehow transported in time to face the modern Kharn, the last part of my quote remains true. If that didn't happen, then I guess we go with Helbrecht for now.
If you listen to The Butcher's Nails, Sigismund was a warrior of great acclaim in the World Eaters' gladitorial arena, earning the title "The Black Knight"... But Kharn was also a warrior of great renown in said arena, the best the World Eaters could offer. There is no reason to think Sigismund would totally destroy heresy era Kharn (Although I do think he'd win), and even less to believe he could win against today's Kharn.
How is Kharn the best servant of Khorne? Did everyone forget Skulltaker? He is ap3 ws 7 eternal warrior (sorry Wurzzog, Khorne does have a champion with that usr) rends on a 4+ to wound and that also causes instant death. All that with a 3+ 5++ and a 2++ against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons, making the only loyalist that comes close (mephiston) a corpse in combat. In 1v1 Skulltaker chumps Kharn all day long and fluff wise, that is exactly what he is supposed to do. Or Skarbrand, who is the immortal embodiment of what service to Khorne is, and whose very presence on the battlefield turns everyone nearby, friend or foe, into a psychotic bloodthirsty lunatic, mentally on par with the likes of any other servant of the Blood God. What im getting at is, while Kharn is an awesome guy, how is he the "best"? Oh and to stay on course with the main topic, I would have to say pre-heresy loyalist, Lucius (remember its pre-heresy). Post- heresy, St.Celestine. Its a battle that never ends...
BudForTheBeerGod wrote: How is Kharn the best servant of Khorne? Did everyone forget Skulltaker? He is ap3 ws 7 eternal warrior (sorry Wurzzog, Khorne does have a champion with that usr) rends on a 4+ to wound and that also causes instant death. All that with a 3+ 5++ and a 2++ against all wounds caused by psychic powers and force weapons, making the only loyalist that comes close (mephiston) a corpse in combat. In 1v1 Skulltaker chumps Kharn all day long and fluff wise, that is exactly what he is supposed to do. Or Skarbrand, who is the immortal embodiment of what service to Khorne is, and whose very presence on the battlefield turns everyone nearby, friend or foe, into a psychotic bloodthirsty lunatic, mentally on par with the likes of any other servant of the Blood God. What im getting at is, while Kharn is an awesome guy, how is he the "best"? Oh and to stay on course with the main topic, I would have to say pre-heresy loyalist, Lucius (remember its pre-heresy). Post- heresy, St.Celestine. Its a battle that never ends...
actually good to know >.>
And in all actuality that is fine because demons never sport ridiculous saves IMHO. Skulltaker sounds like a beast at least it sounds like we both agree that Khorne isn't... pftt honorable.
Melissia wrote: Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.
Rysaer wrote: Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion
Which means he's good at screaming at any rate. I'm sure we can find someone who can make him scream more.
Khorne isn't just about rage/screaming though, if you listen to the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook and various other books (Liber chaotica: Khorne), Khorne is also about the living embodiment of battle, bloodlust and honour. Khorne tends to favour those who fight with honour. He doesn't grant his boon to those who let others do their fighting for them. Kharn only fights those who can fight back, especially those who fight well.
Kharn, screaming aside, is a brutal and efficient warrior with the blood gods favour and probably well more than 10,000 years of experience in battle, brutal fighting and killing, I think it'd be hard task to find anybody else with this level of skill, experience and ability.
Honor... Khorne... are you serious? tha...that is the most...redicu...you can't be serious right?
that is like saying the Unibomber is as honorable as Musashi... They both killed many men whats the difference... honor is the difference.
Khorne's tennats are murder...there is no honor in his will he doesn't accept challenges because he wants to fight one on one he is furious someone challenged him nothing more. Why is it I am educating Chaos on it's own gods!?
No, really, Khorne IS the Chaos God of honour. More specificly, martial honour. That's only a part of him, but it's there. Just look at Duke Venalitor in Hammer of Daemons for an example.
Why are people hashing out tabletop rules in the background forum? Amongst other things, the OP's after fluff examples, not tabletop.
In modern 40K, I struggle to think of any loyalist Space Marine that could defeat Kharn.
Honorable mentions would go to Blackmane, Crowe/Draigo, Helbrecht and a few other Chapter Masters and the Feast of Blades dude however.
Vasarto was probably correct with Bjorn, but a Dreadnought's kinda cheating!
However, the portrayal of Xarl *no spoilers* may suggest that particularly skilled opponents (such as those mentioned above) could be an equal to a heresy-era opponent, but I expect Kharn is superior to Xarl and has the backing of Khorne, so no, I doubt any modern Marine could really match him.
Melissia wrote: Can it be non-Marines, too? Phoenix Lords, particularly powerful Warbosses, Assassinorum operatives, probably some hive tyrants or other for the 'nids.
He's specifically asking for a loyalist example.
I'm aware.
He did specifically refer to Space Marines though.
I'm currently in a battle with Kharn and Calgar, i've done some pre rolls to see, next turn i get the charge on Calgar, and on average i cause 6 wounds, i attack first, Calgar has 4 wounds i believe and has a 5+ invulnerable save. After averaging out the rolls, Calgar leader of Ultramarines never gets to strike back. Mephiston seems like a good challenge ;P
Rysaer wrote: Kharn has no equal. He is the blood gods finest champion
Which means he's good at screaming at any rate. I'm sure we can find someone who can make him scream more.
Khorne isn't just about rage/screaming though, if you listen to the 'Chosen of Khorne' audiobook and various other books (Liber chaotica: Khorne), Khorne is also about the living embodiment of battle, bloodlust and honour. Khorne tends to favour those who fight with honour. He doesn't grant his boon to those who let others do their fighting for them. Kharn only fights those who can fight back, especially those who fight well.
Kharn, screaming aside, is a brutal and efficient warrior with the blood gods favour and probably well more than 10,000 years of experience in battle, brutal fighting and killing, I think it'd be hard task to find anybody else with this level of skill, experience and ability.
Honor... Khorne... are you serious? tha...that is the most...redicu...you can't be serious right?
that is like saying the Unibomber is as honorable as Musashi... They both killed many men whats the difference... honor is the difference.
Khorne's tennats are murder...there is no honor in his will he doesn't accept challenges because he wants to fight one on one he is furious someone challenged him nothing more. Why is it I am educating Chaos on it's own gods!?
No, really, Khorne IS the Chaos God of honour. More specificly, martial honour. That's only a part of him, but it's there. Just look at Duke Venalitor in Hammer of Daemons for an example.
I'm sorry, the words Chaos god and honour to not compute in my envisionings of them. If this was done in a black library book it wouldn't be the first time an author has mad me sigh and want my money back. There is a difference between throwing someone their weapon you are about to kill, kill them and then listen to them when they plead for you not to harm their family.
I'd like to ask for a reference but knowing Black Library I'm sure it's there to make the fanboyz squeal. Suffice to say if you listen to the basic quotes
"Blood for the Blood god." "Skulls for the Skull throne" "Let the Galaxy Burn!" "Burn maim kill!" these quotes are the most basic and fundamental quotes of Khorne the mindless ranting of killers and people who place the glorious death of others as the only way to appease their god. It is suppose to be an analogy for the corruptible seduction of killing the enemies of one's gods in the name of their gods and how it looks to others. When you see marching Jihadist you are filled with that fear these people want to kill you for no other reason their their beliefs, the same for the reverse it true when you think of how mortifying it must has been for muslims to hear the resonanting chant of "GOD WILLS IT" from Crusaders .
Khorne isn't honorable in my eyes, he is merely a loveable and honest killer who wants to fap to split blood and finish his session inside their skulls while listening to death metal.
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Frecklesonfire wrote: I'm currently in a battle with Kharn and Calgar, i've done some pre rolls to see, next turn i get the charge on Calgar, and on average i cause 6 wounds, i attack first, Calgar has 4 wounds i believe and has a 5+ invulnerable save. After averaging out the rolls, Calgar leader of Ultramarines never gets to strike back. Mephiston seems like a good challenge ;P
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Khorne has always been honourable but the interwebz justs runs with with the "Kill Main Burn" stuff
and ...ya know the previous codexes and main story arcs and...should i even bother continuing? Because I think I am wasting my time and you've convinced yourselves your not orks with more rage
This has probably been mentioned several times already, but, if Khorne is a god "of honor", why then, is Kharne "The Betrayer" his right-hand man? Kharne's whole gimmick is antithetical to the notion of honorable combat. He kills purely for the sake of killing, even if means slaughtering his comrades-in-arms right in the middle of a firefight. There's no honor in that. That Kharne is Khorne's favorite Speyce Marine pretty much spits on the notion that he's a god who values honor.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Khorne has always been honourable but the interwebz justs runs with with the "Kill Main Burn" stuff
and ...ya know the previous codexes and main story arcs and...should i even bother continuing? Because I think I am wasting my time and you've convinced yourselves your not orks with more rage
Each of the chaos gods has a "Positive" emotion, Tzeenech is the god of Hope etc
BlaxicanX wrote:This has probably been mentioned several times already, but, if Khorne is a god "of honor", why then, is Kharne "The Betrayer" his right-hand man? Kharne's whole gimmick is antithetical to the notion of honorable combat. He kills purely for the sake of killing, even if means having to slaughter worthy allies right in the middle of a firefight. There's no honor in that. That Kharne is Khorne's favorite Speyce Marine pretty much spits on the notion that he's a god who values honor.
He's called the betrayer because his fellow marines refused to fight ie they acted dishonourably (In Kharn's eyes) and he performed some battlefield discipline, he did Betray his Legion but not his God
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Khorne has always been honourable but the interwebz justs runs with with the "Kill Main Burn" stuff
and ...ya know the previous codexes and main story arcs and...should i even bother continuing? Because I think I am wasting my time and you've convinced yourselves your not orks with more rage
Each of the chaos gods has a "Positive" emotion, Tzeenech is the god of Hope etc
BlaxicanX wrote:This has probably been mentioned several times already, but, if Khorne is a god "of honor", why then, is Kharne "The Betrayer" his right-hand man? Kharne's whole gimmick is antithetical to the notion of honorable combat. He kills purely for the sake of killing, even if means having to slaughter worthy allies right in the middle of a firefight. There's no honor in that. That Kharne is Khorne's favorite Speyce Marine pretty much spits on the notion that he's a god who values honor.
He's called the betrayer because his fellow marines refused to fight ie they acted dishonourably (In Kharn's eyes) and he performed some battlefield discipline, he did Betray his Legion but not his God
No, Tzeenech is scheming and planning, hope is the literal antithesis of planning. Perhaps it is what they "disguise themselves as" but this isn't them.
Please give references cause this is downright wrong until i see something.
BlaxicanX wrote: This has probably been mentioned several times already, but, if Khorne is a god "of honor", why then, is Kharne "The Betrayer" his right-hand man? Kharne's whole gimmick is antithetical to the notion of honorable combat. He kills purely for the sake of killing, even if means slaughtering his comrades-in-arms right in the middle of a firefight. There's no honor in that. That Kharne is Khorne's favorite Speyce Marine pretty much spits on the notion that he's a god who values honor.
Not really, Kharn is the betrayer because in a battle on a deathworld, his fellow world eaters displayed cowardice in the face of sub freezing tempature that only might have killed them and returned to their shelters rather then continue the attack. Kharn tried to urge them forward and when they ignored him he picked up a heavy flamer and his other weapons, and slew both his enemies and his cowardly allies (cowardice isnt honorable), after which he was known as the "betrayer", which isnt really correct as his fellow warriors had betrayed Khorne by not continuing the fight, while Kharn has always remained Loyal.
BlaxicanX wrote: This has probably been mentioned several times already, but, if Khorne is a god "of honor", why then, is Kharne "The Betrayer" his right-hand man? Kharne's whole gimmick is antithetical to the notion of honorable combat. He kills purely for the sake of killing, even if means slaughtering his comrades-in-arms right in the middle of a firefight. There's no honor in that. That Kharne is Khorne's favorite Speyce Marine pretty much spits on the notion that he's a god who values honor.
Not really, Kharn is the betrayer because in a battle on a deathworld, his fellow world eaters displayed cowardice in the face of sub freezing tempature that only might have killed them and returned to their shelters rather then continue the attack. Kharn tried to urge them forward and when they ignored him he picked up a heavy flamer and his other weapons, and slew both his enemies and his cowardly allies (cowardice isnt honorable), after which he was known as the "betrayer", which isnt really correct as his fellow warriors had betrayed Khorne by not continuing the fight, while Kharn has always remained Loyal.
At the Battle of Skalathrax, between the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters, Khârn became both legendary and infamous amongst his legion. When the World Eaters' advance stalled, even though they were close to victory, Khârn became disgusted at their weakness and flew into a berserk rage, slaughtering friend and foe alike. Because of this, the World Eaters were completely scattered into small, individual war bands, and have seldom, if ever, fought as a unified Legion since then. Khârn's actions at Skalathrax earned him the sobriquet "The Betrayer", which he has carried ever since.
this not only doesn't show honor is shows his anger that they were weak and not worthy of to savior the GLORIOUS and RESPLENDENT DECADENCE OF KHORNE for being so weak they couldn't win against the opposing forces of nipple-pinchy. I know you want to think Khorne is honor, but to me it is better depicted as rage and murder with a thirst for a good challenge in other words Orks with more intelligence using words like "Glorious" rather than "Right Propah". I would say the concept of honor is known to berserkers or Khorne and perhaps is veiled in the concept of it to insult truly honorable men (Viking vs Knight) but the true tennats of khorne would only use honor to draw out the most glorious kills in the name of their bloody god.
BlaxicanX wrote: This has probably been mentioned several times already, but, if Khorne is a god "of honor", why then, is Kharne "The Betrayer" his right-hand man? Kharne's whole gimmick is antithetical to the notion of honorable combat. He kills purely for the sake of killing, even if means slaughtering his comrades-in-arms right in the middle of a firefight. There's no honor in that. That Kharne is Khorne's favorite Speyce Marine pretty much spits on the notion that he's a god who values honor.
Not really, Kharn is the betrayer because in a battle on a deathworld, his fellow world eaters displayed cowardice in the face of sub freezing tempature that only might have killed them and returned to their shelters rather then continue the attack. Kharn tried to urge them forward and when they ignored him he picked up a heavy flamer and his other weapons, and slew both his enemies and his cowardly allies (cowardice isnt honorable), after which he was known as the "betrayer", which isnt really correct as his fellow warriors had betrayed Khorne by not continuing the fight, while Kharn has always remained Loyal.
BlaxicanX wrote: This has probably been mentioned several times already, but, if Khorne is a god "of honor", why then, is Kharne "The Betrayer" his right-hand man? Kharne's whole gimmick is antithetical to the notion of honorable combat. He kills purely for the sake of killing, even if means slaughtering his comrades-in-arms right in the middle of a firefight. There's no honor in that. That Kharne is Khorne's favorite Speyce Marine pretty much spits on the notion that he's a god who values honor.
Not really, Kharn is the betrayer because in a battle on a deathworld, his fellow world eaters displayed cowardice in the face of sub freezing tempature that only might have killed them and returned to their shelters rather then continue the attack. Kharn tried to urge them forward and when they ignored him he picked up a heavy flamer and his other weapons, and slew both his enemies and his cowardly allies (cowardice isnt honorable), after which he was known as the "betrayer", which isnt really correct as his fellow warriors had betrayed Khorne by not continuing the fight, while Kharn has always remained Loyal.
reference? book? pg #?
4th ed Chaos dex
Page #? title? I have this codex and I wouldn't mind you quoting it word for word please if you are going to make a bold claim
Here is what i found
Pg. 40 Under Kharn the Betrayer
Kharn has dedicated his Millennial-long existence to unleashing bloody carnage upon anyone and anything withing reach. He is drawn by the scent of war as a hungering hound is drawn by fresh meat, and it has becoming impossible to tally his slaying. Even during the Great Crusade, when he fought in the vanguard of the World Eaters Legion's assault companies, Kharn was known to be a brilliant yet unstable warrior.
So far this makes him seem exactly as I've been saying Impulsive, murderous and treasonous all for the name of Khorne, his only true ally.
Oh and I found your reference for his name, you are sadly mistaken honor didn't play in anger did at failure upon a frozen planet which was to claim everyone.
Kharn is called the betrayer because of an incident on the Daemon wold of Skalathrax. Fighting against the Emperor's Children the World Eaters needed just one more victory over Fulgrim's Warriors and the planet would be claimed in Khorne's name.The battle had to be won before Skalathrax's long frozen night drew in and killed victor and vanquished alike. Yet the World eaters could gain no ground against their foes and were hurled back time and time again by devastating sonic weapons. Kharn cursed his fellow warriors for abandoning the attack and seizing a flamer he torches the nearest buildings IN A GESTURE OF CONTEMPT. he cut down those that tried to stop him and marched into the gloom , the serpents's tongue of his flamer licking out again and again to consume the city. Through the mayhem strode Kharn slaughtering all that he found, friend or foe.
Kharn and most of Khorne are nothing if not loyal and fanatical to their god, but he doesn't pay homage to honor nor does he care about anything other than murder. This event pleased Khorne because Kharn didn't care who he killed anyone and everyone who would approach him within the city would die. He wanted this victory for KHORNE not for honor and he didn't kill his men because honor dictacted he must. He wanted to please his god and those fools were bungling the job the only person he could rely on to slaughter properly in the name of Khorne was himself.
by your own logic you make it sound like a boss firing someone is honorable...
BudForTheBeerGod wrote: Pg # 48 of 4th edition Codex: Chaos Space Marines. 3rd Paragraph, 9 sentences long and if you want a word count you can do it yourself
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Cowardice in the face of adversity, is not honorable. It does not have to explicitly state that he was honorable in every mention of Khorne and his followers for him to remain honorable, it is obviously present. I would not state that khorne would be above cheating his fellow deities in a game of cards around the warp fire, but in war, he is direct, straightfoward, and with honor. He doesnt kick an enemy that is down like slaanesh or tzeentch, doesnt pander to them like nurgle, he doesnt bother those that present no challenge for his troops, or play sissy sit in the corner and shoot tactics, he simply seeks victory after victory, and even in defeat, he is content at the spilled blood. That is martial honor. Doesnt make him a good guy in any way, but he keeps his word, malicious though it may be.
The use of scalathrax as an example isn't exactly relevant, I'm pretty sure his brother marines world have fought back or at least had the ability to. They wouldn't have sat there begging for it, they would have defended themselves therefore there is honour or at least a sense of it.
Spoiler warning! (working from phone so spoiler tags may not work)
Spoiler:
]A prime example is in 'Chosen of Khorne' Kharn has a thousand chances to kill a seneschal who was formerly a warrior and loyal to the world eaters, yet he doesn't because the seneschal prays for death, he wants to die. Kharn explains there would be no honor or glory for Khorne in killing him, so doesn't do it.
Also in the same audiobook he kills Brand a chaos warlord because he was using others to do his killing in Khornes favour, he states that Khorne only respects those who fight their own battles again proving a sense of martial honour.
In this entry it talks about how Angron lobotomized his warriors removing all sense of fear and danger. So clearly in Kharn's own anger he couldn't have been justified in killing his own men they were kraven monsters just like him wanting to kill in the name of Khorne they weren't "discouraged" they don't know the meaning of the word.
also in this entry it talked about how the marines have an increased hormonal rush in combat... dunno about you but this sounds like a roid rage to me... not a contemplative honorable warrior letting his enemy pick up his weapon and ask if he is ready to die he just screams and wants to hear the splat sound once his weapon reaches the enemies face....
pg 36 KHORNE BERSERKERS 2nd paragraph
Those who wish to fully dedicate themselves to Khorne usually join the World eaters to undergo the complex PYSCHO-SURGERY involved, but from that moment on they are one with their angry god, FEELING NOTHING BU THE DESIRE TO KILL, MAIM and BURN.
Waiting to see honor in this stuff....
pg 36 KHORNE BERSERKERS 4th paragraph
The Berzerkers of Khorne relish their role as the Blood God's sacred destroyers, and are fanatical in the extreme. Their delight in pain and death is so strong that they have been known to attack their comrades in blind rage and if no opponent is present, to even fall upon their own weapons as sacrifices to Khorne.
...
are we done yet?
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Rysaer wrote: The use of scalathrax as an example isn't exactly relevant, I'm pretty sure his brother marines world have fought back or at least had the ability to. They wouldn't have sat there begging for it, they would have defended themselves therefore there is honour or at least a sense of it.
Spoiler warning! (working from phone so spoiler tags may not work)
Spoiler:
]A prime example is in 'Chosen of Khorne' Kharn has a thousand chances to kill a seneschal who was formerly a warrior and loyal to the world eaters, yet he doesn't because the seneschal prays for death, he wants to die. Kharn explains there would be no honor or glory for Khorne in killing him, so doesn't do it.
Also in the same audiobook he kills Brand a chaos warlord because he was using others to do his killing in Khornes favour, he states that Khorne only respects those who fight their own battles again proving a sense of martial honour.
Correct, Kharn doesn't kill sniveling bitches... he kills the mightest foes. That man's blood would give him no glory at all it would probably repulse Khorne that Kharn was giving him a kindness since the seneschal as you put it was more or less begging for it.
Again, i never said Khorne isn't fickle. Khorne isn't honorable he wants someone to be a mighty slaughtering behemoth with no emotion or thought just MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER MURDER! Someone who says "but Khorne I gave you more souls than Kharn could ever have hoped to give you"
to which Khorne replies "Yes but he did them all himself..."
Daddy loving the way his son does something isn't honor guys... I know you want to convince yourselves you are blood soaked samurai but you aren't you are just murdering for the blood god. And there is nothing wrong with that I'm sorry i just don't agree with anyone making this claim till they show me how Khorne like honor and fair fights, and holding to some sort of code where an opponent must be fought to redeem the personal image of one solider. Kharn hasn't demanded a duel he just slaughters someone who dares approach him wanting a duel.
to me your tennats are kill "Kill as much as you can, Maim it all doing it yourself if possible, and burn anything and everything that stands in your way." a truly inspirational religion that Orks identify with but not honor.
In this entry it talks about how Angron lobotomized his warriors removing all sense of fear and danger. So clearly in Kharn's own anger he couldn't have been justified in killing his own men they were kraven monsters just like him wanting to kill in the name of Khorne they weren't "discouraged" they don't know the meaning of the word.
also in this entry it talked about how the marines have an increased hormonal rush in combat... dunno about you but this sounds like a roid rage to me... not a contemplative honorable warrior letting his enemy pick up his weapon and ask if he is ready to die he just screams and wants to hear the splat sound once his weapon reaches the enemies face....
pg 36 KHORNE BERSERKERS 2nd paragraph
Those who wish to fully dedicate themselves to Khorne usually join the World eaters to undergo the complex PYSCHO-SURGERY involved, but from that moment on they are one with their angry god, FEELING NOTHING BU THE DESIRE TO KILL, MAIM and BURN.
Waiting to see honor in this stuff....
pg 36 KHORNE BERSERKERS 4th paragraph
The Berzerkers of Khorne relish their role as the Blood God's sacred destroyers, and are fanatical in the extreme. Their delight in pain and death is so strong that they have been known to attack their comrades in blind rage and if no opponent is present, to even fall upon their own weapons as sacrifices to Khorne.
...
are we done yet?
No, we're not. Not every follower of Khorne is a World Eater. In fact, not every follower of Khorne is a Space Marine.
No, we're not. Not every follower of Khorne is a World Eater. In fact, not every follower of Khorne is a Space Marine.
True, and those would be considered as they go. I'd agree a cultist is very likely to have honor because... well cultist are just too varied not to be a reality.
I apologize if I did something like this for the Kharn thread... (Not necessarily for little kids)
but to me it's laughable that Khorne himself wants honor he just wants a super star. If other people who follow Khorne want to be honorable that is fine and i'm sure khorne doesn't care as long as the blood flows but I still haven't heard anyone produce me something concrete that says "Khorne is honorable or likes honor" or that Kharn is honorable for that matter.
I think him having a preference in enemies to kill is being mistaken as honor. Its the same feeling a hunter gets when he sees a little deer when hunting... there is no sport in it and leaves it be. In a sense it's honorable but in reality it just doesn't meet specifications.
In truth it was Khorne who saved Khaine (eldar god of war) from utter annihilation at the hands of Slaanesh. In part because Khaine had always been a good sport in combat and fun to toy with, and in part because Slaanesh is too loathsome to be worthy of killing even a lesser alter-ego of Khorne. If you ask me for sources I will point you to the best one around. GOOGLE IT.
BudForTheBeerGod wrote: In truth it was Khorne who saved Khaine (eldar god of war) from utter annihilation at the hands of Slaanesh. In part because Khaine had always been a good sport in combat and fun to toy with, and in part because Slaanesh is too loathsome to be worthy of killing even a lesser alter-ego of Khorne. If you ask me for sources I will point you to the best one around. GOOGLE IT.
Sorry man, it's not my burden to bare you are the one making caseless claims of honor without so much as a single quote yet. I think right now I am the more credible source than you, it sounds plausible but highly unlikely. I would have thought a fan of chaos would be eager to prove this stuff and it be needed for a change .
please produce references, or don't Watch. I can say Khorne is actually the 3rd Ork God and all orks are inherently closer to Khorne than Chaos Space marines or it's followers but you will doubt that and I won't have a reference and I'll end up looking foolish if it turns out (which is probably is) less than concrete fact.
Khaine is also believed to have been assaulted, defeated, and dominated by Slaanesh sometime after Slaanesh's awakening in the 29th millennium (Imperial Calendar). Following this, Khorne, Chaos God of war, battled Slaanesh for Khaine, rightly claiming the Eldar deity as his property. During their struggle, Khaine was driven into the material world, where he shattered into a thousand pieces. The dread Avatars of Khaine are the mere splinters of the ancient war god that can be called upon by a sacrifice of an Exarch who is chosen to be the Young King who are then absorbed by the essence, thus becoming the Avatar of Khaine wielding the might of the War God himself.
Neither side wanted to 'save' they wanted to own and because these two incessantly keep fighting the avatar shattered and became the creature we know today. He didn't save he smashed in frivolous anger. So this makes 2 poor paraphrasings now, Are we aiming for more or would you like to make simple references before continuing again?
No, Khorne is not an ork god, Orks run away when they are beaten to get reinforcements, Khorne's followers die to a man. I have at least provided sources for most of my statements, you have yet to provide any to the reverse.
BudForTheBeerGod wrote: No, Khorne is not an ork god, Orks run away when they are beaten to get reinforcements, Khorne's followers die to a man. I have at least provided sources for most of my statements, you have yet to provide any to the reverse.
because i was joking.... wow dense. sorry... but that is dense
Thank you sir, we do tend to be higher level thinkers, not like those loyalists at all.
In all seriousness though, I'd like to ask just once person give me a reference of honor rather than scruples if you all believe this to adamantly. I personally am fighting against this because the Khorne i've known for years is being ... well "feminized" into this force which acts with reason as opposed to a death obsessed teenager who happens to be spiteful if the person wants to die by their hands or is a cowardly ally. To me this isn't honor this is just the ways men try to remove the fear of death by keeping their distance or letting it rule them.
like a true unfathomable demon they probably reach elation while you are fighting for your life your heart pounding so fast you are about to black out and then suddenly a crackling blade of lightning cuts into your heart as your blood pours out and your soul transitions to the warp. It must be beautiful Ecstasy to a demon who feeds on carnage and hate, to watch life suddenly implode like that from something trying so desperately to live that the demon just... wants to follow those force of beauty in their eyes. But imagine that beautiful moment ruined when they go another 10 years without so much as a single drop of blood being dropped... and to the dismay of khrone it sees they are meek and depressed wanting it all to end horribly traumatized by this 'humanity' thing they have... they just got lucky and Khorne's aspirations now feel betrayed.
To me... this the most logical way Khorne views people as it feeds into the fundamental ideas of death, carnage, destruction ect. and when his champions see a crazed homeless man... it just isn't the same as that space marine fellow who drew the blood of this renowned "painter" of blood Kharn. They deserve a good death and they will be beautiful to be become undone... but a feeble old man? What is the point death would be a mercy... he would remain placid and clam the most vibrant his end would be is lightly speckled with pain... no flair... no tears in the eyes... no twitching muscles gushing blood or screams of furious dying anger... just a limp depressed man finding an end. Solace... and boring
So please... if you have something to dispel this conception i have had for year I ask you to please prove it with just a reference that will show me I am wrong. I am not afraid of being wrong their is so much fluff in 40k but honor and Khorne is one i have never in the last 14 years heard of. The previous poster at least had a shred of evidence but no site-able reference for me to look i up... it's depressing me
Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.
Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka
(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)
Rysaer wrote: Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.
Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka
(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)
valid points, and it's cool if you don't have a reference I was just hoping to read over it. Like i said i could care less if I am wrong i just don't feel i am and am shocked no one else if battling me on this since so many were initially opposed to my outbursts. If you can find the quotes on something other than lex that is great i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.
Rysaer wrote: Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.
Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka
(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)
valid points, and it's cool if you don't have a reference I was just hoping to read over it. Like i said i could care less if I am wrong i just don't feel i am and am shocked no one else if battling me on this since so many were initially opposed to my outbursts. If you can find the quotes on something other than lex that is great i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.
Rysaer wrote: Sadly I found these quotes through a wiki also just now, (on my phone in the pub, as me and my mate are aruging this ust now ), I'll check the liber chaotica and the chaos dexes when I get home from le pub.
Khorne, arguing and beers. Another great saturday night on dakka
(I'll apologise now If I'm acting like a bit of a p***k about this, I'm a bit of an overly fanatical Khorne fan, plus in the general 40k universe no one answer is really the right one, I still see Khorne as the honourable battle god from the 3.5 dex I believe and older, I stick to that rather than the newer 'We're a bit mental and enjoy killing' fluff we have now.)
valid points, and it's cool if you don't have a reference I was just hoping to read over it. Like i said i could care less if I am wrong i just don't feel i am and am shocked no one else if battling me on this since so many were initially opposed to my outbursts. If you can find the quotes on something other than lex that is great i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.
The quotes he posted are on Lexicanum fyi
i prefer readable stuff as opposed to lexicanium if I can but *shrug* only so much i can do.
you don't read ... do you? Sorry, I know you are trying to help but ... egh feth it. To me reading it help more than trusting lex every time.
I'm an avid, dex, black library and other publication reader, I just have a terrible memory especially for specific quotes, although I must agree that using lexi isn't a credible source.
It's like using wikipedia as a reference in a college/uni coursework or the like
While Kharn could cause wounds like no other Arjac has the advantage of outright murdering Kharn should he connect with any hits. Really the main problem Kharn faces is even with all of his attacks and ap and high strength and decent init he is still auto-killable by standard strength 8 weaponry. A storm shield will do an amazing job at stopping his fury and all you really need is one strike and he will have a meager 5+ invul between him and being auto killed.
In fluff this is accurate too, Arjac fights the krakens of Fenris and is Logan Grimnar's Champion he'd be hard pressed to bested in combat and he gets counter attack just like his enemy so they are just a fierce in combat charged or not.
Infact If Arjac was lucky he could chuck that teleporting hammer of his and take off Kharn's head in one throw.
Thanks for the my daily laugh.....
In game terms Statiscally Kharn will just kill him before he even knows whats going on, lets do alil theory hammer Arjac clocks in at 188 pts to Kharns' 160, 28 pts worth charge priority for Kharn?
So Kharn charges in, Arjac Counter Atks, Kharn comes in with 7 atks hitting on 2's with Hatred, followed by wound on 2's with gorechild, so lets say 6 wounds, storm shield saves 4? Sounds like a dead Arjac to me
Now in fluff terms Kharn has been around since the Crusades, killed many times, and killing innumerable more, He survived Angron's beserk onslaught, in his early years, and only grew more fierce as time went on, Some upstart champion is not Kharn's equal, Logan would be hard pressed to contend.
Considering if arjac charges in before he declares he could just throw his hammer and slay kharn with a pretty high probably with a percision strike is pretty humorus to me too... LOS is only a 1 in 6 chance of failing but it is still enough to cause a very big cry baby CSM player in moments. Assuming he is lucky enough to dodge the hammer when Arjac accepts or issues the challenge Kharn yet again has a chance to be worthless to the group or just straight up start killing his own unit. Arjac is able to take punishment very well and you should never underestimate the abilities of 3+ saves, because if nothing else Arjac's company will win the battle in the end even if he manages be killed in the first round. But the sheer potential of 1 strike and ur dead clearly makes him an equal for Kharn, because luck or unluck doesn't matter no one is "unbeatable" long as all it takes it 1 strike to deal with him.
Well kharn for one does not possess a demon weapon, so none of this he does nothing buisness, its an ap2 ccw that grants +1 str, and yes kharn can roll a 1 to hit, but hitting on 2s with hatred generally means no, kharn is more likely to survive arjacs hammer toss than he is likely to survive kharns round of atks, so you can say hes is awesome and amazing, but statiscally kharn is more consistent ingame and costs almost 30 pts less to boot.
Just Dave wrote: So... When was the last time Kharn was actually mentioned in this thread?
Is that what we were supposed to be talking about?
Sorry for dragging this off topic
I already threw my apology in for that. The concept of him being honorable or his patron liking honor was something i diverted flow to proof. Feel free to throw out new people who could fight Kharn
Khorne's fluff used to emphasize martial honor among his combatants, but due to stupid writing that made him a big fat manchild who would be just as happy with you stabbing chickens as he would with you killing strong warriors, he is now mostly a god of mindless slaughter.
Fantasy Flight Games's Black Crusade is the only recent thing I can recall besides some varied BL books that show the honorable side of Khorne.
Okies, after being home for the last hour or so I've gone through, the Liber Chaotica: Khorne, All the chaos codexs since 2nd edition, the index astartes article on the world eaters, the Warhammer: Realm of Chaos 'Slaves to darkness', the FF Black Crusade book, the new FW Horus Heresy book and several WD, old brb's and older publications back to RT era.
I have learned from this, I stand a bit corrected and sorry for dragging this off topic again but I felt I should explain and sort of apologise for my earlier transgressions/rash statements, especially to Big Mek Wurrzog as he was actually pretty spot on and I didn't exactly react well initially, I blame the beers/khorne
Here are some of the quotes I found that actually clear up Khorne a bit for me, as I've now realised that while he does respect martial pride/prowess this isn't really the same as honour and in fact honour is usually what leads to people falling to Khorne and becoming debased killers.
I actually have a lot of quotes but I won't post them all, just the more relevant. Again this is the last time I'll drag this off topic.
Spoiler:
This one is actually pro-honour and backs up my previous Khorne/Slaanesh quote.
FF Black Crusade book, Page 15:
Khorne hates and despises the Chaos power Slaanesh above all others. The self-indulgent sensuality of the prince of pleasure is an affront to the warrior instincts of Khorne. The sense of duty, honour, and self-sacrifice that fuels part of Khorne’s existence is an anathema to the followers of Slaanesh.
FF Black Crusade Book, Page 14:
Some justify their slaughter through honour, bravery or pride but the most fanatical know that only the bloodshed matters.
Warhammer: Realms of Chaos – Slaves to Darkness, Page 17:
Every life taken by a follower of Khorne increases the blood gods power. He looks with particular favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and allies, and the more death and destruction the creature has caused.
The only way to gain favour with him is by killing – enemies or friends, all the dead are equal in the eyes of Khorne. The only way to incur his displeasure is by not killing.
3rd Edition Chaos codex, Page 47:
Khorne is the manifestation of this violent, irrational aspect of human nature. He is the living embodiment of every hate fuelled blow, every brutal killing, every pointless murder ever committed in the long and sad history of the human race.
His armies heave with those ensnared by notions of courage, honour, martial pride and revenge: all such concepts lead ultimately to the base of the blood gods throne.
Amidst these groups grow elite cadres, warrior-cults for whom martial pride and honour is all. Honour may give these men strength on the field of battle, but against Khorne it will prove their undoing, for pride becomes conceit in the Realms of Chaos, and from conceit it is but a short step to tyranny.
Upon a thousand worlds a billion warriors strive for nothing more than slaughter. Amidst bloodshed on such a scale Khorne finds his followers, for when war has stripped a man of all decency, compassion and humanity, then his soul is open wide to the howling, hate-driven oaths of the blood god.
The most fanatical and dedicated of his followers, those trapped fully within his clawed grasp, know that he desires only wild slaughter. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows only that it does.
As I mentioned there are a lot more I could post but that’s enough, as this is off topic. So what I’ve learned is that while Khorne doesn’t directly relish honour, pride and prowess, these are the things that can drive people into his embrace. So in a way they are a part of him but clearly he is more concerned simply with followers battling, fighting, killing, slaughtering and butchering in his name and as we’ve always known this doesn’t necessarily need to be driven by honour etc. I’ve actually enjoyed getting back in touch with my Khorne roots, and I’ve forgotten how much I love the blood soaked sod that he is, and if anyone wants any more information or access to the information behind these quotes then PM me.
Now back to topic, I'm still struggling to answer this to be honest as I'm finding it hard to think of anyone with relative amount of martial prowess and experience on the imperial side of things, the only ones that spring to mind for me just now would be the likes of Dante, Calgar, Logan Grimnar and possibly Gabriel Seth (although probably because he seems a bit mental also ).
He's called the betrayer because his fellow marines refused to fight ie they acted dishonourably (In Kharn's eyes) and he performed some battlefield discipline, he did Betray his Legion but not his God
Not really, Kharn is the betrayer because in a battle on a deathworld, his fellow world eaters displayed cowardice in the face of sub freezing tempature that only might have killed them and returned to their shelters rather then continue the attack. Kharn tried to urge them forward and when they ignored him he picked up a heavy flamer and his other weapons, and slew both his enemies and his cowardly allies (cowardice isnt honorable), after which he was known as the "betrayer", which isnt really correct as his fellow warriors had betrayed Khorne by not continuing the fight, while Kharn has always remained Loyal.
Except, Skalanthrax wasn't the only incident where Kharne slaughtered his own allies, thus the notion that he only betrays cowards/dishonorable people is false. Kharne betrays all his allies- that is his nature. That's why he is "the betrayer". It's even in his special rules..
ArbitorIan wrote: In terms of fluff, as an equal in idea (though not in rules), crazy Gabriel Seth?
This is something that I always thought would be an epic fight, Blood Reaver clashing with Gore Child. Something that is probably likely to happen in the most "recent" events of 40k, what with the Darkest Hour being mentioned.
999.M41 The Darkest Hour - a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan is on a direct course for the Blood Angels homeworld, Baal. Exacerbating this already terrible threat is a massive daemon army led by the dread bloodthirster Ka'Bandha, which has already struck at Ammonai, the outermost planet of the Baal system. Facing a possible war on two fronts, Commander Dante sends out a call for all Chapters descended from the Blood Angels to send forces to aid their ancestor Legion; the Flesh Tearers are the first to do so, deploying the entire Chapter for war. Ultimately all but the Lamenters do so, even the renegade Knights of Blood
Not unlikely that mortal servants of Khorne would make the journey to the Baal system in such a time.
Some justify their slaughter through honour, bravery or pride but the most fanatical know that only the bloodshed matters.
Which is why I laugh at the idea of Khorne having honor.
Khorne's most devoted servants have no honor. They only let the blood flow. Kharn is one of his most devoted servants.
Thats why I posted that up, it disproves the whole Khorne is honourable thing, I already explained I was wrong about that, hence why I put up all the quotes to show why Khorne doesn't have or need honour.
Some justify their slaughter through honour, bravery or pride but the most fanatical know that only the bloodshed matters.
Which is why I laugh at the idea of Khorne having honor.
Khorne's most devoted servants have no honor. They only let the blood flow. Kharn is one of his most devoted servants.
Thats why I posted that up, it disproves the whole Khorne is honourable thing, I already explained I was wrong about that, hence why I put up all the quotes to show why Khorne doesn't have or need honour.
As far as Loyalist, i follow the IOM a bit but in the truest form of orks
I would say Ghazghul would utter annihilate Kharn during his waaaghs and as far as fluff goes no one has been able to take him down not offico assassinorium or the Black Templars Chapter Master. he has crushed entire Imperial worlds and despite Kharn having a few thousand more years on him ghazghull is slaughtering up a kill count.
Wazzadakka would need to get lucky to beat him i think
I envision grotsnik and Kharn having a almost "predator" scene... sept it would be be grotsnik on the defensive setting up booby traps ect.
Zagstrukk.... much as I love him.... I envision a blood end by Kharn's hand.
Old Zogwort, i think he's be "Cunnin" enough to not even challenge mighty Kharn he'd send in a double and then hope he could turn him into a squig....considering I recall him being stupidly resistant to deny the witch... probably would end up dying or taking down alot of boyz fluff wise with him.
then again ork special characters suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck rules and fluff wise
If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.
psychadelicmime wrote: If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.
psychadelicmime wrote: If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.
psychadelicmime wrote: If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.
Wait, I thought you said human?
Those are marines, not humans.
Are... Are you actually claiming that?
Of course I am, I actually pay attention to the lore. They're not genetically human any more than ratlings or ogryns are-- and hell, they're not even human in matters of psychology.
Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..
I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.
The image i have in my head of Kharn's fighting style is complete and utter agression, always attacking, and very little sense of self-preservation. i dont think you would ever hear the phrase "Kharn is on the defensive" or "Kharn is on the backfoot". I think an exeptionally 'cunning' warrior like Ragnar Blackmane or Logan Grimnar would be a match. Ragnar has 'incredible lightning reflexes' to avoid Kharn's attacks and the cunning side would be luring him into a trap or bad environment. it would be a pretty damn epic battle and i would love to see more space wolf involvement in the current fluff. (if they are and i dont know about it let me know book names)
Nerm86 wrote: Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..
I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.
The image i have in my head of Kharn's fighting style is complete and utter agression, always attacking, and very little sense of self-preservation. i dont think you would ever hear the phrase "Kharn is on the defensive" or "Kharn is on the backfoot". I think an exeptionally 'cunning' warrior like Ragnar Blackmane or Logan Grimnar would be a match. Ragnar has 'incredible lightning reflexes' to avoid Kharn's attacks and the cunning side would be luring him into a trap or bad environment. it would be a pretty damn epic battle and i would love to see more space wolf involvement in the current fluff. (if they are and i dont know about it let me know book names)
nerm86
Actually swordplay is incredibly aggressive.
When a fighter is "on the defensive," it means they're losing.
All effective styles focus on minimizing movements, but the height of Western swordplay (Which is presumably what 40k's swordplay would take after more than others, at least for the Imperium), aka the German school of fencing (Despite the name, it was taught all throughout Germany, not just Germany) focused largely on attack. The best manner of fighting was a strike that managed to seriously threaten your opponent while diverting damage from yourself (Kharn in a few fluff pieces largely fights like this, using his chainaxe to simultaneously counter and strike). Passively defending is seen as the worst form of combat.
Granted, even in Europe, some styles of swordplay were different. The English style of swordplay was based more in defense than the German one.
But I dislike the notion that aggression in combat makes it easier for people to get through your defenses, or whatever.
Also, barring Grey Knight clownfoolery, Mephiston is almost certainly the mightiest loyalist Space Marine. He can rip Carnifexes to pieces bare-handed. I can't see Kharn beating him.
Void__Dragon wrote: All effective styles focus on minimizing movements, but the height of Western swordplay (Which is presumably what 40k's swordplay would take after more than others, at least for the Imperium), aka the German school of fencing (Despite the name, it was taught all throughout Germany, not just Germany) focused largely on attack. The best manner of fighting was a strike that managed to seriously threaten your opponent while diverting damage from yourself (Kharn in a few fluff pieces largely fights like this, using his chainaxe to simultaneously counter and strike). Passively defending is seen as the worst form of combat.
Granted, even in Europe, some styles of swordplay were different. The English style of swordplay was based more in defense than the German one.
But I dislike the notion that aggression in combat makes it easier for people to get through your defenses, or whatever.
Also, barring Grey Knight clownfoolery, Mephiston is almost certainly the mightiest loyalist Space Marine. He can rip Carnifexes to pieces bare-handed. I can't see Kharn beating him.
For mephiston, Khorne provided us with Skulltaker (who has actually killed a carnifex and a trygon at the same time in one round of cc for me in game). As for Kharns "swordplay", he uses an axe thats head is as wide as a space marines torso from shoulder to shoulder. I just dont see him using that for simple thrusts and defensive parries, like one would a saber or other european longsword. I kinda envision him in a crowd of sniviling Imperials with a crazed look on his face (the kind a lumberjack has before he goes to town on some pathetic rainforest that is on the endangered list and about to go extinct) and then begins chopping away with such extreme violence that would make even the kind of fictional killer like leatherface puke his guts out.
Melissia wrote: Not necessarily. There's plenty of styles that prefer to minimize movements and force the opponent to make mistakes.
And all of them lose to Kharn...
clearly you've not actually had serious swordplay. I Not only was a preformer of swordplay i sought it out as recreation with SCA and Dagorhir. Aggression is foolish, it hyper extends you and leaves you far more likely to die than anything else. Everyone's bold imaginings of Kharn rushing in is probably accurate but I would say for sake of realism it's his demonic energy and demon weapon that does most the leg work. A truly defensive fighter like a shieldman laughs at aggression finding it easier to shift one's weight and let a baseball heavy swing turn into a pass glance with no true force all because of 1 foot step then another foreward like a tackle to knock them off center. It's why i applaud stormshields because in true combat shields demoralize anyone i have ever fought their only hope is to kick against a shield which normally ends in their planted foot bleeding from a solid blow even through armor knocking them to the ground then you just kneel and plant your shield ontop of their face and go to town on their limbs...
I understand this is a kharn fanboy post and i've done enough to disrupt it... but please stop making these sort of stupid comments... they lack logic.
It is called sarcasm, big mek, and while you may have played with a foil and participated in the sca's authentic "heavy combat" involving bamboo and armor where a glancing hit to the steel helm results in an out (where I am from thats called "tag" with baseball bats), you are forgetting that the entire scenario is not real, in that this is an 8 meter tall superhuman warrior with brain "reconstruction" in robo-cop armor, wielding a massive chainsaw axe who has the blessing of a supreme blood god to murder all sissy-ness that he encounters with impunity, and is by all accounts exceedingly good at his job even by his fellows standards. Why would he follow the normal rules to close combat war as we currently know it, when he breaks almost every other rule of war, science and religion as we know it?
Nerm86 wrote: Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..
I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.
IIRC that number was just for the campaign he was currently fighting in, not his total kills.
Except according to the German Fightmasters who wrote the book on swordplay. Literally.
this is going to veer into off topic conversation. I will simply say i agree to disagree because the sword is far older than the inception of Germany. Suffice to say two handed weaponry was a favored weapon due to the barbaric tribes of Germania back in the day. But you have the huns, rome, china, and older civilizations which also "wrote the book" it's all valid but from personal experience i can say this much, Combat isn't about showing off or going hardcore, it can be but these styles rarely are successful long term (meaning they are dangerous but maybe successful during the time employed).
Either way i accept the fact 40k doesn't use natural combat as a prime example, infact very few fantasy styles do. Every culture had their own ways but i found proper guards and practices movement were always the better things to make muscle memory as oppose to trying to overpower. Then again... I love the concept of orks so
Except according to the German Fightmasters who wrote the book on swordplay. Literally.
this is going to veer into off topic conversation. I will simply say i agree to disagree because the sword is far older than the inception of Germany. Suffice to say two handed weaponry was a favored weapon due to the barbaric tribes of Germania back in the day. But you have the huns, rome, china, and older civilizations which also "wrote the book" it's all valid but from personal experience i can say this much, Combat isn't about showing off or going hardcore, it can be but these styles rarely are successful long term (meaning they are dangerous but maybe successful during the time employed).
Either way i accept the fact 40k doesn't use natural combat as a prime example, infact very few fantasy styles do. Every culture had their own ways but i found proper guards and practices movement were always the better things to make muscle memory as oppose to trying to overpower. Then again... I love the concept of orks so
Being agressive doesn't have to mean that you're trying to clobber your enemy into the dirt like some sort of berserker though.
Except according to the German Fightmasters who wrote the book on swordplay. Literally.
this is going to veer into off topic conversation. I will simply say i agree to disagree because the sword is far older than the inception of Germany. Suffice to say two handed weaponry was a favored weapon due to the barbaric tribes of Germania back in the day. But you have the huns, rome, china, and older civilizations which also "wrote the book" it's all valid but from personal experience i can say this much, Combat isn't about showing off or going hardcore, it can be but these styles rarely are successful long term (meaning they are dangerous but maybe successful during the time employed).
Either way i accept the fact 40k doesn't use natural combat as a prime example, infact very few fantasy styles do. Every culture had their own ways but i found proper guards and practices movement were always the better things to make muscle memory as oppose to trying to overpower. Then again... I love the concept of orks so
Being agressive doesn't have to mean that you're trying to clobber your enemy into the dirt like some sort of berserker though.
Correct that was my orginal point. Styles are just that styles; both worth going all out which most people imagine Kharn as doing isn't the way you win a true fight. So saying something like Ragnar being defensive in battle until an opening appears is 100% valid to state. It shouldn't mean you are winning or losing. it's completely null in point anyone could win no matter who is offensive or defensive.
Nerm86 wrote: Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..
I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.
IIRC that number was just for the campaign he was currently fighting in, not his total kills.
okay now that makes complete sence to me now.
All the fluff on Kharn and Khorne Bezerkers always states how they are filled with rage. And that is how i see Kharn fighting, not elegant, not sophisticated, but pure agression. he wouldnt parry and thrust, he would just batter through his opponents deffences as though he hadnt even raised a weapon to defend with and mostly relying on the demon weapon to kill and his armour to protect (too all those who have played Spacemarine will sorta know what i mean)
some people are pointing out that he 'hasnt fought anyone great' or whatever, the fluff i have read has him mostly as going up against PDF forces and civillian populations rather than against space marines and the like. His power armour would be 90% effective against all the weapons that PDF forces and civilians could bring to bear against him and for that other 10% he has Khorne looking out for him.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being agressive doesn't have to mean that you're trying to clobber your enemy into the dirt like some sort of berserker though.
Being some sort of berserker doesn't mean that you stop being skilful. Going berserk does not negatively affect a mans performance. There's a reason that berserkers in real life were always feared.
Nerm86 wrote:he wouldnt parry and thrust, he would just batter through his opponents deffences
Actually, he does parry. He doesn't just charge blindly in and start swinging hoping that someone doesn't manage to stop such a clumsy blow. There's a short story in Kharn leads some berserkers against a Slaaneshi palace, and butchers all he goes against. He also ends up fighting a group of his own berserkers and wins single-handedly, no mean feat.
Is his chain-axe actually Daemon weapon? I've ne er heard that before.
No it is not a demon weapon but it might as well be (in game terms anyway). i just couldnt think of another term that describes it better. It is a 'relative' of the one Angron used, Angron used Gorefather and Kharn uses Gorechild. I think in the one if the earlier HH books Horus had it in his collection trophies won in the crusade and Kharn either took it or was given it.
In no way was i implying that he 'starts swinging hoping..." i meant that it his fighting style brute force over technique, fighting with his brawn rather than with his brain. Obviously im over-simplyfying but that is the way i interpret the fluff
Guys, this is getting out of hand, Kharn kills people, with an axe. That is the one constant in 40k fluff that matters. The rest has been and will be changed time and time again until gw goes out of business. Just count your blessings that for now, Matt Ward hasnt gotten his grubby little paws on chaos and given it his "special attention". That said, this thread is supposed to be about which of the false emperor's lap-dogs think they can take on Kharn. The answer is none, but feel free to discuss anyway...
I would have to say I don't think Khorne shows too many signs of having honor on his mind. I think there is a ting of honor to him...only in the regard that he loves a fair fight. But by fair fight I don't mean a gentleman's duel, I mean the potential of equal power between the two fighting. However, if Kharn kicks sand in his face and slays him....Khorne is happy all the same. His ideals have a ting of Honor to them, but only in the slightest amount. "Honor" or "Chivalry" as the average human would define these, are not part of Khorne's aspect. As long as the power between the two sides are gonna make for a good fight, it's no holds bar.
Rysaer wrote: I think the OP was asking for a Space Marine (loyalist) who could defeat Kharn or equal him.
thats correct, thats what i wanted
I'd say similar to Kharn's status himself, it would take champions of the Imperium such as Dante, Mephiston, ect to match him. I do however think Yarrick is a candidate, Since Yarrick is the only person Ghaz respects for his stubbornness and we don't doubt Ghaz would give Kharn a hard run for his money both rules and fluff wise. I would say it isn't a stretch to think the undying Yarrick would be a decent match for him, the Bald Eye and his strength matches Kharn even with his unholy weapon It's only when Charge is on a warpath or "charging" that Yarrick would be considered weaker.
His klaw isn't enough to outright crush the slayer of men and iirc his 4+ save is invulnerable. It would come down to a match of wills just gently in the favor of Kharn i would think because Even when Kharn would think he had finished Old Man Yarrick he would Stand up screaming for the Emperor and hold the line.
Other than that I agree with what most people have been saying as decent matches.
Also, barring Grey Knight clownfoolery, Mephiston is almost certainly the mightiest loyalist Space Marine. He can rip Carnifexes to pieces bare-handed. I can't see Kharn beating him.
To be fair, his stats are stupidly inflated, his line is nearly on par with the Primarch stats from the new HH book, and roughly what they were in 2nd ed. If Kharn also had his 2nd ed stats, he'd be just as silly.
Kharn isn't really a warleader, he doesn't set out to accomplish great deeds, he's a murder-machine. Comparing him to something like Ghaz doesn't really work in that respect.
And one-on-one, I think Ghaz vs. Kharn will be closer than people give Kharn credit for. That said, I do belief Ghaz would still come out on top.
I struggle to understand why people believe any standard Space Marine could seriously/reliably equal him (though Sanguinor could be a good call). Kharn has more experience than any, Dante included, as well as the backing of Khorne and being amongst the greatest hand-to-hand combatants of the Great Crusade era IIRC.
As for Mephiston, his greatest strength is his psychic ability; something largely ignored by Kharn/Khorne.
When discussing Kharn's accomplishments, it's also worth noting IMHO that we don't know what he got up to during Betrayer (novel; where he gains Gorefather) or the Siege of Terra.
Just Dave wrote: And one-on-one, I think Ghaz vs. Kharn will be closer than people give Kharn credit for. That said, I do belief Ghaz would still come out on top.
I struggle to understand why people believe any standard Space Marine could seriously/reliably equal him (though Sanguinor could be a good call). Kharn has more experience than any, Dante included, as well as the backing of Khorne and being amongst the greatest hand-to-hand combatants of the Great Crusade era IIRC.
As for Mephiston, his greatest strength is his psychic ability; something largely ignored by Kharn/Khorne.
When discussing Kharn's accomplishments, it's also worth noting IMHO that we don't know what he got up to during Betrayer (novel; where he gains Gorefather) or the Siege of Terra.
It wouldn't be Equal, It would be a massacre of Khrone's champion. Ghaz is a metaphor for the mighty tyrant or behemoth. He Represents brutality as a means of creating society "Do as I say" type of thing. It's the idea that a leader of pirates could kill the leader of the vikings type of thing they operate differently plot wise but above all else they represent different things in the 40k universe as well
When Ghaz charges the ground quakes and buildings are tackled and rending into wreckage Kharn may kill all of Ghaz' body guards Ghaz's skull and body would be more than capable of absorbing the damage ESPECIALLY If he was filled with an unleashing commandment of Waaagh from Gork and Mork. I highly doubt Kharn is stupid enough to even get near Ghaz's warband infact he probably provides plenty of ravaged systems and planets for Kharn to enjoy slaughtering while they try and rebuild
The ideals of Orks and Khorne are pretty damn similar, but Ghaz and Kharn are probably never destine to meet in battle not from a lack of trying but simply because they go where the most enemies are, and if both are in the same area very little is left and Chaos is able to slip away well before Orks arrive.
Khorne cannot completely block out psychic power, especially if you use it to amplify your own combat abilities-- teleportation, predicting the enemy's moves through divination, increasing his strength and toughness, healing damage, etc.
There are also psychic powers that can completely and utterly ignore such protections from Khorne, if you listen to the FFG supplements-- one in particular burns the body and soul of everyone nearby, ignoring all protection, be it daemonic or otherwise.
Does Kharn ever retreat? I assume he has some moments of lucid thought, and will respond to reason by leaving a battlefield if his destruction is immanent.
Then again Khorne has resurrected Kharn once, perhaps twice, in the fluff and if this is the case then perhaps it happens more often than is originally thought.
I think Kharn would annihilate Ghaz in a one on one fight. Lumbering movents versus aggressive precision. At the very least Ghaz is loosing the majority of his limbs.
Gorechild is a huge chainaxe and is an artifact from the Great Crusade. Its teeth come from the jaws of mica-dragons of the death world Luther McIntyre IX, its haft forged from adamantium and its head is a full three spans across
Best weapon description ever. I was hoping the Angron model from FW would reflect the axes being made out of monstrous dragon teeth.
Medium of Death wrote: Does Kharn ever retreat? I assume he has some moments of lucid thought, and will respond to reason by leaving a battlefield if his destruction is immanent.
Then again Khorne has resurrected Kharn once, perhaps twice, in the fluff and if this is the case then perhaps it happens more often than is originally thought.
I think Kharn would annihilate Ghaz in a one on one fight. Lumbering movents versus aggressive precision. At the very least Ghaz is loosing the majority of his limbs.
Affraid not, in fluff Ghaz only respects one human Yarrick and it isn't for his ability to fight it's his tenacity to take a beating for such a small man and the fact he can warn Yarrick his troops will arrive on a planet and he knows that Yarrick will do exactly what Ghazzy wants which is warn the Imperium and give him a good fight for his Waaagh. Kharn has the speed but not the protection nor the damage to kill Ghazzy as easily as his normal enemies, Kharn in all his fluff hasn't been noted as a supreme duelist though his rules and fluff suggest he is very good. Ultimately Gorechild would maybe strike him once or even twice but not deal anything close to a mortal blow or a decimating one either Especially if he is running with his normal entourage of mega Nobz + Grotsnik.
A fluff on fluff battle Kharn loses, a game side on side would end no better for Kharn he just isn't built to fight someone who can generate a 2+ invul on command that one klaw strike will kill with only a minor 5+ to save himself. In the end Kharn would lose but that is because they aren't meant to do the same thing Ghazzy is meant to kill arrogant Commanders and monstrous creatures ripping them to pieces while Kharn is meant to slaughter men in droves different specialists ina game of rock paper scissors.
Kharn in all his fluff hasn't been noted as a supreme duelist though his rules and fluff suggest he is very good.
1) Contradict much?
2) Ghaz doesn't really have much saying he's a good duelist either. Unless I've missed something.
Is one god's avatar of war better than another god's avatar of war (throw in the Avatar and you've got a 3rd....)? Probably not. They're probably pretty evenly matched, all things considered, well other than the Avatar... that thing gets beaten by everybody.
Rysaer wrote: I think the OP was asking for a Space Marine (loyalist) who could defeat Kharn or equal him.
thats correct, thats what i wanted
I'd say similar to Kharn's status himself, it would take champions of the Imperium such as Dante, Mephiston, ect to match him. I do however think Yarrick is a candidate, Since Yarrick is the only person Ghaz respects for his stubbornness and we don't doubt Ghaz would give Kharn a hard run for his money both rules and fluff wise. I would say it isn't a stretch to think the undying Yarrick would be a decent match for him, the Bald Eye and his strength matches Kharn even with his unholy weapon It's only when Charge is on a warpath or "charging" that Yarrick would be considered weaker.
His klaw isn't enough to outright crush the slayer of men and iirc his 4+ save is invulnerable. It would come down to a match of wills just gently in the favor of Kharn i would think because Even when Kharn would think he had finished Old Man Yarrick he would Stand up screaming for the Emperor and hold the line.
Other than that I agree with what most people have been saying as decent matches.
Yarrick is one of my favorite 40k characters, on par with Lukas Bastonne, but he would get destroyed by Kharn. His fight with Ghazghkull makes him epic, and really tenacious, but Yarrick only survived due to insane plot armor. The fact that Ghazghkull couldn't crush Yarrick immediately is as much a discredit to Ghaz as it is credit to Yarrick. Kharn wouldn't toy around with him. The fight would start with Kharn splitting Yarrick in two.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, his stats are stupidly inflated, his line is nearly on par with the Primarch stats from the new HH book, and roughly what they were in 2nd ed. If Kharn also had his 2nd ed stats, he'd be just as silly.
His stats mean less than nothing to me.
In the fluff, he has ripped Carnifexes to pieces barehanded.
Just Dave wrote: I struggle to understand why people believe any standard Space Marine could seriously/reliably equal him (though Sanguinor could be a good call).
Because Kharn hasn't done gak to prove all the hype the fandom places on him.
Sanguinor isn't a Space Marine, and has bested one of the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters in single combat. I personally don't think it is a question whether or not Sanguinor could beat Kharn.
Kharn has more experience than any, Dante included, as well as the backing of Khorne and being amongst the greatest hand-to-hand combatants of the Great Crusade era IIRC.
Yet for all that experience, he hasn't done much of anything. Dante on the other hand has cut Skarbrand in half.
Also, Bjorn it must be said is roughly as experienced, and even had a decent showing against Magnus, but being a Dreadnought he may not count.
As for Mephiston, his greatest strength is his psychic ability; something largely ignored by Kharn/Khorne.
His greatest strength is being as strong as a Greater Daemon, physically mighty enough to strangle Daemon Princes and brutalise Carnifexes.
When discussing Kharn's accomplishments, it's also worth noting IMHO that we don't know what he got up to during Betrayer (novel; where he gains Gorefather) or the Siege of Terra.
That's exactly it: We don't know.
I am eagerly waiting for Kharn to actually get some feats to justify his hype as death on two legs, but that has yet to happen.
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Melissia wrote: So have ordinary humans, but let's not get too deeply in to that.
My point is, killing a Tyranid monstrous creature is something that any named character can probably do.
Now, killing a NAMED Tyranid monstrous creature (and not just some random boring named one that is tossed aside immediately afterwards), THAT is more impressive. But I don't see him beating the Swarmlord or anything.
Kharn's achievements really aren't that impressive. Hell, Calgar's are more impressive. Kharn just sort of strikes me as a guy who's good at slaughtering armies but not necessarily good at fighting champions dedicated to killing people like Kharn. Pretty much any combat-focused Imperial Saint (such as Celestine or Praxedes) is going to be able to defeat Kharn in my book, and plenty of loyalist Marines as well (Sanguinius, Calgar, probably some Space Wolf characters), as would many of the more powerful warbosses (such as Ghazzy) and named Tyranid monstrous creatures (swarmlord, redeye). The Eldar Phoenix Lords would probably treat him like a minor nuisance, and I'm fairly certain that Lelith Hesperax would find him an amusing prey-- but just a prey. And let's not get started on the C'tan, even in their reduced forms...
Just about the only codex represented race that wouldn't have a combatant equal to or greater than Kharn is the Tau. And that's only because they loathe close combat-- they'd kill him from afar.
A quick check of the White Dwarf codex (Seriously, sucks to be a Sisters player) verifies that she did indeed kill it in melee, but died herself from her wounds.
She also had a pretty kickass power mace to help her.
My point is, killing a Tyranid monstrous creature is something that any named character can probably do.
Given the right circumstances sure. The amount that could do so in close combat is somewhat smaller, and the amount that could do so unarmed is incredibly small, among Imperial forces at the very least.
Mephiston did this without his Force sword or his psychic powers.
Now, killing a NAMED Tyranid monstrous creature (and not just some random boring named one that is tossed aside immediately afterwards), THAT is more impressive. But I don't see him beating the Swarmlord or anything.
It depends on how impressive you think the Swarmlord is compared to M'kar I guess. M'kar and the Swarmlord have one thing in common: They have laid Marneus Calgar low (The Swarmlord inflicted the more grievous wounds on him, but it also had a full retinue backing it).
Kharn's achievements really aren't that impressive. Hell, Calgar's are more impressive. Kharn just sort of strikes me as a guy who's good at slaughtering armies but not necessarily good at fighting champions dedicated to killing people like Kharn. Pretty much any combat-focused Imperial Saint (such as Celestine or Praxedes) is going to be able to defeat Kharn in my book, and plenty of loyalist Marines as well (Sanguinius, Calgar, probably some Space Wolf characters), as would many of the more powerful warbosses (such as Ghazzy) and named Tyranid monstrous creatures (swarmlord, redeye). The Eldar Phoenix Lords would probably treat him like a minor nuisance, and I'm fairly certain that Lelith Hesperax would find him an amusing prey-- but just a prey. And let's not get started on the C'tan, even in their reduced forms...
Calgar has very impressive feats, and in a feat war Calgar would indeed win.
I find it interesting that you bring up Lelith Hesperax. I ask you: What has she done? She's killed nameless Space Marines. So has Kharn, and in far greater numbers. She frankly suffers from the same problems Kharn does: All hype, nothing to justify it. Frankly, she even has substantially less hype than Kharn does, and Kharn at least has one decentish feat (He survived a beating from Angron, though admittedly Angron could have killed him at any time).
Bringing up the C'tan is just silly. In their fully powered forms, in the materium, a one on fight with a C'tan means you lost: Period. Even in the pre-newcron fluff, the God-Emperor of Mankind himself had to put forth a mighty effort to best a weakened and starved Void Dragon. But yeah, even as shards, the fluff descriptions of their abilities alone is impossibly broken, to an extent no psychic power I can recall has matched. Crazy gak like reality itself unfolding in their presence alone, wielding dark matter as projectile weaponry, or sending their foes back to the Big Bang itself. So yeah, one of them would murderstomp Kharn, and as of now IMO anyone on the list (Inevitably though, Marneus Calgar will use the pimp gloves of Ultramar to give them the Khaine treatment...).
Though, let me say, I agree with the gist of what you are saying. Kharn simply doesn't have the feats to back up his hype... But similarly, he doesn't have the losses to suggest he sucks ass in one on one combat either. Kharn IMHOshould be a beast in martial combat one on one, but he simply doesn't have the showings other characters have at the moment. So, until he gets them, yeah, you can't really objectively say much about his prowess in a duel.
Just about the only codex represented race that wouldn't have a combatant equal to or greater than Kharn is the Tau. And that's only because they loathe close combat-- they'd kill him from afar.
A quick check of the White Dwarf codex (Seriously, sucks to be a Sisters player) verifies that she did indeed kill it in melee, but died herself from her wounds.
She also had a pretty kickass power mace to help her.
IMO this is more than enough to say plausibility because we know Mephy was using psyker powers to enhance himself more than likely or at the very least is easily capable of it in fluff. So to me the fact a SOB achieved a similar feat but it cost her life for the sake of faithfully taking a stand... I'd say that is pretty damn impressive considering carnies have survived Exterminatus before.
Farsight beats everyone in melee combat.
Everyone.
This one just intrigues me especially because of his blunder in the Waaagh of Dakka, could you explain what you mean?
Kharn does have another feat according to "The Butcher's Nails"; he's the strongest World Eater gladiator in their pits before he got any Chaos backing (meaning he fought on level with guys like pre-Heresy Sigismund) and fought a daemon possessed Argel Tal on equal-footing.
In terms of game stats at least, if Kharn gets off a charge against Thraka (most likely scenario), in a challenge Kharn will inflict 3.8 wounds on Thraka at I5 through his Invul save, killing him 4 times out of 5 before he can respond. If Thraka lives, his Klaw likely crushed Kharn, but only through ID, inflicting only an average of 1.388 wounds.
Hitting on 2's with rerolls and wounding on 2's with an AP2 weapon and 7 attacks is a hilarious thing.
Against Lucius, Kharn, through his "I hit on 2's and get rerolls in the first round of CC" rule and higher Strength, will generally inflict wounds at about a 2-1 ratio against Lucius.
Nerm86 wrote: No it is not a demon weapon but it might as well be
But in background terms, he doesn't have a Daemon lending a helping hand, and we've no idea what the favour of Khorne exactly attributes him with.
In no way was i implying that he 'starts swinging hoping..." i meant that it his fighting style brute force over technique, fighting with his brawn rather than with his brain. Obviously im over-simplyfying but that is the way i interpret the fluff
"as though he hadnt even raised a weapon to defend with" suggests to me that he wouldn't be using any skill whatsoever.
I find it interesting that you bring up Lelith Hesperax. I ask you: What has she done? She's killed nameless Space Marines. So has Kharn, and in far greater numbers. She frankly suffers from the same problems Kharn does: All hype, nothing to justify it. Frankly, she even has substantially less hype than Kharn does, and Kharn at least has one decentish feat (He survived a beating from Angron, though admittedly Angron could have killed him at any time).
I think it's sad that killing a substantial number of highly trained and potent Berserkers (as Kharn does in one story) single-handedly isn't considered a substantial feat. But then again, I ascribe to the theory that aside from a few much larger creatures and Daemons, something killing a Marine in hand-to-hand shouldn't be that easy. Hence the whole Grimnar (I think) getting a salute from Angron (I think) for killing three Berserkers (not sure if it was at the same time or one after the other) in close combat. Guess that's the way it actually goes though; much like anyone, nameless characters are generally just fodder and so even killing a very large number of them isn't a big deal.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: IMO this is more than enough to say plausibility because we know Mephy was using psyker powers to enhance himself more than likely or at the very least is easily capable of it in fluff. So to me the fact a SOB achieved a similar feat but it cost her life for the sake of faithfully taking a stand... I'd say that is pretty damn impressive considering carnies have survived Exterminatus before.
Possible, but I'd like to think an important detail like that would have made its way into the fluff.
But then... This is a Ward-penned codex, who tends to write duels being pretty vague (I dunno if the same line is in an older Blood Angels codex).
Also, she killed a Hive Tyrant, not a Carnifex. Carnifexes are physicaly similar in most regards, just slower and stronger.
This one just intrigues me especially because of his blunder in the Waaagh of Dakka, could you explain what you mean?
I am saying Commander Farsight would romp through Ghazghkuull, all the Primarchs, the Emperor, and Khorne himself in martial combat.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: IMO this is more than enough to say plausibility because we know Mephy was using psyker powers to enhance himself more than likely or at the very least is easily capable of it in fluff. So to me the fact a SOB achieved a similar feat but it cost her life for the sake of faithfully taking a stand... I'd say that is pretty damn impressive considering carnies have survived Exterminatus before.
Possible, but I'd like to think an important detail like that would have made its way into the fluff.
But then... This is a Ward-penned codex, who tends to write duels being pretty vague (I dunno if the same line is in an older Blood Angels codex).
Also, she killed a Hive Tyrant, not a Carnifex. Carnifexes are physicaly similar in most regards, just slower and stronger.
This one just intrigues me especially because of his blunder in the Waaagh of Dakka, could you explain what you mean?
I am saying Commander Farsight would romp through Ghazghkuull, all the Primarchs, the Emperor, and Khorne himself in martial combat.
Vaktathi wrote: In terms of game stats at least, if Kharn gets off a charge against Thraka (most likely scenario), in a challenge Kharn will inflict 3.8 wounds on Thraka at I5 through his Invul save, killing him 4 times out of 5 before he can respond. If Thraka lives, his Klaw likely crushed Kharn, but only through ID, inflicting only an average of 1.388 wounds.
Hitting on 2's with rerolls and wounding on 2's with an AP2 weapon and 7 attacks is a hilarious thing.
Against Lucius, Kharn, through his "I hit on 2's and get rerolls in the first round of CC" rule and higher Strength, will generally inflict wounds at about a 2-1 ratio against Lucius.
You clearly don't know Ghazzy's rules he can declare the waaagh at any time... even during Kharn's charge and his 2+ armor becomes invulnerable.... so no he'd be luck to cause 2 wounds to Ghazzy. Only through sheer bad rolls woudld Ghazzy die to Kharn. Please learn rules before saying something silly.
Vaktathi wrote: In terms of game stats at least, if Kharn gets off a charge against Thraka (most likely scenario), in a challenge Kharn will inflict 3.8 wounds on Thraka at I5 through his Invul save, killing him 4 times out of 5 before he can respond. If Thraka lives, his Klaw likely crushed Kharn, but only through ID, inflicting only an average of 1.388 wounds.
Hitting on 2's with rerolls and wounding on 2's with an AP2 weapon and 7 attacks is a hilarious thing.
Against Lucius, Kharn, through his "I hit on 2's and get rerolls in the first round of CC" rule and higher Strength, will generally inflict wounds at about a 2-1 ratio against Lucius.
You clearly don't know Ghazzy's rules he can declare the waaagh at any time... even during Kharn's charge and his 2+ armor becomes invulnerable.... so no he'd be luck to cause 2 wounds to Ghazzy. Only through sheer bad rolls woudld Ghazzy die to Kharn. Please learn rules before saying something silly.
Let's see... So Kharn charges. That's 7 S7 attacks. He hits on 2s, so let's say that he gets 5/7 hits on average. Because of Hatred, he gets to reroll, so presumably he'll hit with all 7 attacks. That's S7 vs T5, so wounds on 2s. That's 5 wounds. If Ghaz doesn't have Waaagh available, then he's boned, and Kharn wins. If he does, which we'll assume for the sake of this battle, then he'll take 1 or 2 wounds. The next round, he can hit Kharn and kill him instantly because of instant death.
Vaktathi wrote: In terms of game stats at least, if Kharn gets off a charge against Thraka (most likely scenario), in a challenge Kharn will inflict 3.8 wounds on Thraka at I5 through his Invul save, killing him 4 times out of 5 before he can respond. If Thraka lives, his Klaw likely crushed Kharn, but only through ID, inflicting only an average of 1.388 wounds.
Hitting on 2's with rerolls and wounding on 2's with an AP2 weapon and 7 attacks is a hilarious thing.
Against Lucius, Kharn, through his "I hit on 2's and get rerolls in the first round of CC" rule and higher Strength, will generally inflict wounds at about a 2-1 ratio against Lucius.
You clearly don't know Ghazzy's rules he can declare the waaagh at any time... even during Kharn's charge and his 2+ armor becomes invulnerable.... so no he'd be luck to cause 2 wounds to Ghazzy. Only through sheer bad rolls woudld Ghazzy die to Kharn. Please learn rules before saying something silly.
Let's see... So Kharn charges. That's 7 S7 attacks. He hits on 2s, so let's say that he gets 5/7 hits on average. Because of Hatred, he gets to reroll, so presumably he'll hit with all 7 attacks. That's S7 vs T5, so wounds on 2s. That's 5 wounds. If Ghaz has already used Waaagh, then he's boned. If he hasn't, which we'll assume for the sake of this battle, then he'll take 1 or 2 wounds. The next round, he can hit Kharn and kill him instantly because of instant death.
That is all assuming Kharn does not make his invulnerable save(s), which is still possible. "If" he does, then gaz (should be) dead next round of combat. I say in the grand scheme of things, its a 50/50 shot between the two. Only because Kharn can put an average of 3-5 wounds on Gaz, who in turn can put on average 1-2 wounds on Kharn, who in turn has a 1 in 3 chance on each to survive. And we cant forget that this is also based on if you are using quality (casino style) dice that roll evenly, instead of those chessex dice that have a slightly higher percentage chance of rolling 1s then each other number...
Of all the characters in the 6th Ed Chaos Codex, I expected Kharn to be the most likely candidate for Eternal Warrior. He survived being impaled on a Land Raider, and being killed during the Siege of Terra. You could at least make him immune to common forms of instant death for being extremely hard to kill.
I find it interesting that you bring up Lelith Hesperax. I ask you: What has she done? She's killed nameless Space Marines. So has Kharn, and in far greater numbers. She frankly suffers from the same problems Kharn does: All hype, nothing to justify it. Frankly, she even has substantially less hype than Kharn does, and Kharn at least has one decentish feat (He survived a beating from Angron, though admittedly Angron could have killed him at any time).
Everyone.
Huh. Just out of curiosity, I'm gonna compare tabletop stats (which aren't an accurate representation of fluff). Say Lelith charges. She gets 8 attacks. Hitting on 3+, 6 will hit (being generous and rounding up). S3 vs T4, so 2 of those 6 attacks will wound. Kharn will use his invul save, and save one of them if he's lucky. Kharn attacks back with 5 S6 attacks. Hitting on 2+, and then rerolling misses because of Hatred means that on average, Kharn will hit with all 5 attacks. These wound on 2+, so say that 4 wound. Lelith gets her 3+ invul, which means that she'll save 3, being generous. S6 vs T3, so instant death applies, and Lelith loses.
If Kharn charges, it's just even more in his favor.
BudForTheBeerGod wrote: That is all assuming Kharn does not make his invulnerable save(s), which is still possible. "If" he does, then gaz (should be) dead next round of combat. I say in the grand scheme of things, its a 50/50 shot between the two. Only because Kharn can put an average of 3-5 wounds on Gaz, who in turn can put on average 1-2 wounds on Kharn, who in turn has a 1 in 3 chance on each to survive. And we cant forget that this is also based on if you are using quality (casino style) dice that roll evenly, instead of those chessex dice that have a slightly higher percentage chance of rolling 1s then each other number...
Wrong, Ghaz has 7 attacks like kharn on the charge and hits on 4+ which means 4 hits on the charge and 2+ wounds and approximately 2-3 failures by kharn any of which kill him. it isn't a 1/3 it is simple math that he loses in most situations thus he is considered weaker. Yes he can win but so can a genestealer.
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Black Knight wrote: Of all the characters in the 6th Ed Chaos Codex, I expected Kharn to be the most likely candidate for Eternal Warrior. He survived being impaled on a Land Raider, and being killed during the Siege of Terra. You could at least make him immune to common forms of instant death for being extremely hard to kill.
Cause Khrone is all about people defying death.
No Sorry Chaos doesn't get eternal warrior because the Chaos gods want to collect on their followers I agree with only 1 model getting it, Abaddon Horus' clone and champion of all chaos.
BudForTheBeerGod wrote: That is all assuming Kharn does not make his invulnerable save(s), which is still possible. "If" he does, then gaz (should be) dead next round of combat. I say in the grand scheme of things, its a 50/50 shot between the two. Only because Kharn can put an average of 3-5 wounds on Gaz, who in turn can put on average 1-2 wounds on Kharn, who in turn has a 1 in 3 chance on each to survive. And we cant forget that this is also based on if you are using quality (casino style) dice that roll evenly, instead of those chessex dice that have a slightly higher percentage chance of rolling 1s then each other number...
Wrong, Ghaz has 7 attacks like kharn on the charge and hits on 4+ which means 4 hits on the charge and 2+ wounds and approximately 2-3 failures by kharn any of which kill him. it isn't a 1/3 it is simple math that he loses in most situations thus he is considered weaker. Yes he can win but so can a genestealer.
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Black Knight wrote: Of all the characters in the 6th Ed Chaos Codex, I expected Kharn to be the most likely candidate for Eternal Warrior. He survived being impaled on a Land Raider, and being killed during the Siege of Terra. You could at least make him immune to common forms of instant death for being extremely hard to kill.
Cause Khrone is all about people defying death.
No Sorry Chaos doesn't get eternal warrior because the Chaos gods want to collect on their followers I agree with only 1 model getting it, Abaddon Horus' clone and champion of all chaos.
Presumably, Khorne raised Kharn from the dead during the Siege of Terra. It was either that, or Kharn simply couldn't be killed.
No Sorry Chaos doesn't get eternal warrior because the Chaos gods want to collect on their followers I agree with only 1 model getting it, Abaddon Horus' clone and champion of all chaos.
Have you read Kharn's fluff? His entire thing pre-betrayer was getting "killed" and then miraculously surviving. Well, that and being Angron's anger counselor.
Khorne will keep a champion around if that champion is doing a bloody good job of spilling blood.
He needs to get into the realspace by summoning and all the stuff like that.
Kharn does not, he simply flies around in a big red brass ship loaded with skulls.
No Sorry Chaos doesn't get eternal warrior because the Chaos gods want to collect on their followers I agree with only 1 model getting it, Abaddon Horus' clone and champion of all chaos.
Have you read Kharn's fluff? His entire thing pre-betrayer was getting "killed" and then miraculously surviving. Well, that and being Angron's anger counselor.
Khorne will keep a champion around if that champion is doing a bloody good job of spilling blood.
Yes I have, and you are confusing Divine ressurection with being tough enough to take a kannon to the face and continue moving, Who does things like that.... lets see....
Abaddon
Ghazzy
Pheniox Lords
Very Select Chapter Masters
Technically (and I could be wrong) No necron to my knowledge has Eternal Warrior the guys most renowned for avoiding death in the first place...
*eternal warrior* is fluffy, it represents things like Ghazzy taking a Emperor Class Warlord Titan's weaponry and living to tell the tale, It' Yarrick Taking a headbutt from a 40 ton terror like Ghazzy's Admantium skull and still finding the moxy to survive. Kharn has "survived" but only because when he dies Khorne is impressed and goes ahead and makes a contract with him to continue his slaughter. Like Abaddon made his deal with the Chaos Lord of Dawn of War. It's magic, demonic possession or wutever you want to say. Kharn the Man isn't tough enough to survive the things Eternal warriors do - end of story for that one. I Still think Abaddon is the best candidate for being so full of chaos power that he couldn't possibly be mortally wounded even by someone like Ghaz.
This isn't fanboyism this is sheer fluff facts, A rhino's dozer blade isn't lethal to the majority of the candidates I just mentioned, it apparently was to Kharn the ever-emo kid brushing with death ...oh but not really
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Kharn the Man isn't tough enough to survive the things Eternal warriors do - end of story for that one. I Still think Abaddon is the best candidate for being so full of chaos power that he couldn't possibly be mortally wounded even by someone like Ghaz.
This isn't fanboyism this is sheer fluff facts, A rhino's dozer blade isn't lethal to the majority of the candidates I just mentioned, it apparently was to Kharn the ever-emo kid brushing with death ...oh but not really
Kharn has only died once, and that was at the Seige of Terra at the top of a mound of bodies. The dozer blade didn't kill him but merely got him away from Loken.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Kharn the Man isn't tough enough to survive the things Eternal warriors do - end of story for that one. I Still think Abaddon is the best candidate for being so full of chaos power that he couldn't possibly be mortally wounded even by someone like Ghaz.
This isn't fanboyism this is sheer fluff facts, A rhino's dozer blade isn't lethal to the majority of the candidates I just mentioned, it apparently was to Kharn the ever-emo kid brushing with death ...oh but not really
Kharn has only died once, and that was at the Seige of Terra at the top of a mound of bodies. The dozer blade didn't kill him but merely got him away from Loken.
Kharn's fluff is written so vaguely that sometimes i swear he has to be written by an emo-fangirl "and then he died... lawl not really silly but his blood was everywhere and he blacked out."
I am not trying to hate I am just saying it's aggervating when you read his fluff cause you never figure out nor do they say when he dies and when he doesn't instead you get this monotonous tone of fights till he is thought dead on all biorythmic scales... then stands up and does a jig for chaos.
IMO he has died alot, but being of chaos and Khorne's greatest champion he is still worth something to khrone more alive than dead thus he is ressed so damn frequently.
I am not trying to hate I am just saying it's aggervating when you read his fluff cause you never figure out nor do they say when he dies and when he doesn't instead you get this monotonous tone of fights till he is thought dead on all biorythmic scales... then stands up and does a jig for chaos.
I've never read anything like that about Kharn.
IMO he has died alot, but being of chaos and Khorne's greatest champion he is still worth something to khrone more alive than dead thus he is ressed so damn frequently.
According to Lexicanum (which attributes it to the 4th Edition Chaos Codex), and I'm pretty sure I've read it elsewhere, he's never come so close to dying as at the Seige of Terra.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: *eternal warrior* is fluffy, it represents things like Ghazzy taking a Emperor Class Warlord Titan's weaponry and living to tell the tale,
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: *eternal warrior* is fluffy, it represents things like Ghazzy taking a Emperor Class Warlord Titan's weaponry and living to tell the tale,
When?
I think he was just using hyperbole to express how tough Ghaz is. There's no way anything that moves on two feet and isn't a titan in 40k can take a Titan's weaponry and live.
Also as far as the Dozer Blades go, as far as we were led to believe Kharn was dead or at the very least so severly injured he was as close to death as you probably could be (being a badass marine and all).
Kharn doesn't have eternal warrior, meaning that while he may not be able to survive everything that may befall him, Khorne has decided however to give him a boon of unatural resurrection/extended life.
Kharn in terms of the loyalist forces, has no direct equal, but there are some who could give him a run for his money or destroy him outright, like those mentioned earlier, (Dante etc.), but this question is pretty hard to answer one as we have no direct proof or examples of Kharn fighting other legendary or special characters.
In terms of my fanboyism however, no one is beating Kharn in a one on one, unless Chaos decides to duplicate Kharn in which case it's a draw.... or Kharn wins.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: *eternal warrior* is fluffy, it represents things like Ghazzy taking a Emperor Class Warlord Titan's weaponry and living to tell the tale,
When?
actually no, it's a bit of an assumption i won't lie but in our codex Ghazzy spray painted a ruined Warlord class emperor titan on the planet of Piscina IV which was a Dark Angels forge Factory world. If I am not mistaken it is the planet that Ghazzy starts his Waaagh on so he can produce enough arms , weapons and ammo to support the Waaagh on Armageddon. I am just assuming things here but with a logical assumption that in Ork society an Ork owns what he kills and if it is dead killy enough they would fight for the prestige of saying they took it down. Ghazzy writes a whole damn speech on this thing to address the Imperium before sending Yarrick back to warn the Imperium (...like a moron lol) In my opinion Ghazzy would have had to have been shot at or at the very least sunk his power klaw into the beast. It just wouldn't make sense for him to boast as much as he did on the graffiti and not to have had some hand in it's destruction personally ya know?
either way it's not substantial evidence or anything but if you are interested it is the flavor text of Ork Codex pg. 91 I'd right it up... but typing orky accents verbatim is a tad aggravating at times
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Rysaer wrote: Nice to see this swinging off topic again
Also as far as the Dozer Blades go, as far as we were led to believe Kharn was dead or at the very least so severly injured he was as close to death as you probably could be (being a badass marine and all).
Kharn doesn't have eternal warrior, meaning that while he may not be able to survive everything that may befall him, Khorne has decided however to give him a boon of unatural resurrection/extended life.
Kharn in terms of the loyalist forces, has no direct equal, but there are some who could give him a run for his money or destroy him outright, like those mentioned earlier, (Dante etc.), but this question is pretty hard to answer one as we have no direct proof or examples of Kharn fighting other legendary or special characters.
In terms of my fanboyism however, no one is beating Kharn in a one on one, unless Chaos decides to duplicate Kharn in which case it's a draw.... or Kharn wins.
agreed with all points but i would say fanboyism is completely perspective, so to say kharn wins from popular vote... i dunno >.> doesn't sound right. Don't get me wrong he is iconic as many of the people in 40k are i just dunno about popularity or zealotry ... orks have some pretty derp fanboyz, same with marines lol
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: *eternal warrior* is fluffy, it represents things like Ghazzy taking a Emperor Class Warlord Titan's weaponry and living to tell the tale,
When?
actually no, it's a bit of an assumption i won't lie but in our codex Ghazzy spray painted a ruined Warlord class emperor titan on the planet of Piscina IV which was a Dark Angels forge Factory world. If I am not mistaken it is the planet that Ghazzy starts his Waaagh on so he can produce enough arms , weapons and ammo to support the Waaagh on Armageddon. I am just assuming things here but with a logical assumption that in Ork society an Ork owns what he kills and if it is dead killy enough they would fight for the prestige of saying they took it down. Ghazzy writes a whole damn speech on this thing to address the Imperium before sending Yarrick back to warn the Imperium (...like a moron lol) In my opinion Ghazzy would have had to have been shot at or at the very least sunk his power klaw into the beast. It just wouldn't make sense for him to boast as much as he did on the graffiti and not to have had some hand in it's destruction personally ya know?
either way it's not substantial evidence or anything but if you are interested it is the flavor text of Ork Codex pg. 91 I'd right it up... but typing orky accents verbatim is a tad aggravating at times
Or, you know, he grafitti'd it because it was a huge Titan and a symbol of Imperial power? Also, Warlord Titans aren't Emperor-class Titans, only Imperators and Warmongers are.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: *eternal warrior* is fluffy, it represents things like Ghazzy taking a Emperor Class Warlord Titan's weaponry and living to tell the tale,
When?
actually no, it's a bit of an assumption i won't lie but in our codex Ghazzy spray painted a ruined Warlord class emperor titan on the planet of Piscina IV which was a Dark Angels forge Factory world. If I am not mistaken it is the planet that Ghazzy starts his Waaagh on so he can produce enough arms , weapons and ammo to support the Waaagh on Armageddon. I am just assuming things here but with a logical assumption that in Ork society an Ork owns what he kills and if it is dead killy enough they would fight for the prestige of saying they took it down. Ghazzy writes a whole damn speech on this thing to address the Imperium before sending Yarrick back to warn the Imperium (...like a moron lol) In my opinion Ghazzy would have had to have been shot at or at the very least sunk his power klaw into the beast. It just wouldn't make sense for him to boast as much as he did on the graffiti and not to have had some hand in it's destruction personally ya know?
either way it's not substantial evidence or anything but if you are interested it is the flavor text of Ork Codex pg. 91 I'd right it up... but typing orky accents verbatim is a tad aggravating at times
Or, you know, he grafitti'd it because it was a huge Titan and a symbol of Imperial power? Also, Warlord Titans aren't Emperor-class Titans, only Imperators and Warmongers are.
Yep just double checked it, sorry for the misquote bad info from my Loyalist roomie. I'd say we'll never know if Ghazzy did get shot or or did attack it but the way the rules go he could very easily take on a titan by himself for an incredibly limited amount of time. Yet that is still impressive in and of itself... abaddon would probably do better. I only say it's possible because of Wazdakka's ability to have taken one down himself WHILE ON FIRE so ... *shrug* just saying it's totally possible and i would says 50/50 with Ghazzy that he got involved with it before it's demise
but again, the point is it's possible with rules and comparative fluff/plot levels
Melissia wrote: Well, he would, if he ever actually got involved in any notable battles since the horus heresy.
He was in a very notable battle.
Only issue is that it wasn't a battle against the Imperium.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: Yes I have, and you are confusing Divine ressurection with being tough enough to take a kannon to the face and continue moving, Who does things like that.... lets see....
Abaddon
Ghazzy
Pheniox Lords
Very Select Chapter Masters
Well, actually, now that you put it that way, you're right that Kharn doesn't really need Eternal Warrior; Eternal Warrior is really just a miscellaneous rule that makes no sense and was only put in to buff a few specific characters. Otherwise, pretty much every Deamon Prince would have Eternal Warrior.
I do know of one Space Marine that will kill Kharn on the table top everytime they meet.....the Space Wolf Lukas the Trickster.
Sure, Lukas will die every time they meet but then the Stasis Bomb he has in his chest goes off and takes Kharn with him. Sorry Kharn, no more skulls for you.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: actually no, it's a bit of an assumption i won't lie but in our codex Ghazzy spray painted a ruined Warlord class emperor titan on the planet of Piscina IV which was a Dark Angels forge Factory world. If I am not mistaken it is the planet that Ghazzy starts his Waaagh on so he can produce enough arms , weapons and ammo to support the Waaagh on Armageddon. I am just assuming things here but with a logical assumption that in Ork society an Ork owns what he kills and if it is dead killy enough they would fight for the prestige of saying they took it down. Ghazzy writes a whole damn speech on this thing to address the Imperium before sending Yarrick back to warn the Imperium (...like a moron lol) In my opinion Ghazzy would have had to have been shot at or at the very least sunk his power klaw into the beast. It just wouldn't make sense for him to boast as much as he did on the graffiti and not to have had some hand in it's destruction personally ya know?
either way it's not substantial evidence or anything but if you are interested it is the flavor text of Ork Codex pg. 91 I'd right it up... but typing orky accents verbatim is a tad aggravating at times
So you made it up.
Kk.
And Wazdakka's fluff is stupid by the way. The only reason he gets a pass but guys like Calgar or Draigo don't seemingly being because he's an Ork.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: actually no, it's a bit of an assumption i won't lie but in our codex Ghazzy spray painted a ruined Warlord class emperor titan on the planet of Piscina IV which was a Dark Angels forge Factory world. If I am not mistaken it is the planet that Ghazzy starts his Waaagh on so he can produce enough arms , weapons and ammo to support the Waaagh on Armageddon. I am just assuming things here but with a logical assumption that in Ork society an Ork owns what he kills and if it is dead killy enough they would fight for the prestige of saying they took it down. Ghazzy writes a whole damn speech on this thing to address the Imperium before sending Yarrick back to warn the Imperium (...like a moron lol) In my opinion Ghazzy would have had to have been shot at or at the very least sunk his power klaw into the beast. It just wouldn't make sense for him to boast as much as he did on the graffiti and not to have had some hand in it's destruction personally ya know?
either way it's not substantial evidence or anything but if you are interested it is the flavor text of Ork Codex pg. 91 I'd right it up... but typing orky accents verbatim is a tad aggravating at times
So you made it up.
Kk.
And Wazdakka's fluff is stupid by the way. The only reason he gets a pass but guys like Calgar or Draigo don't seemingly being because he's an Ork.
WOAH WOAH WOAH! Better hold your tounge dude, to many ork players consider an endlessly ressing emo-girl who cuts herself blood champion who doesn't just die is pretty stupid too man... and no making things up would be saying Ghazzy lifted off the ground ans screamed till he went super sayan and blew up the planet with his foot. The reference is in our codex, the possibility is there but like THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE THAT KHARN HAS BEEN REVIVED MORE TIMES THAN ONE. Void I swear dude you really need to ease up on your comments they are hostile as hell man. Probability in the possibility of a fluff entry is no different than what a large majority of you people are doing to even determine your Champion's equal...guessing.
So please SFTU if i do the same to make a reference why Kharn shouldn't get Eternal warrior and stay the exact same way he is in rules terms or state it supports why he shouldn't have it Via Fluff as well. If you can't say something nice please don't be a jerk about it I try not to be with you.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: WOAH WOAH WOAH! Better hold your tounge dude, to many ork players consider an endlessly ressing emo-girl who cuts herself blood champion who doesn't just die is pretty stupid too man....
So essentially, you think the entire Khorne section of the fluff is stupid?
Have your own opinion then, but it's not one that many share.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: The reference is in our codex, the possibility is there but like THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE THAT KHARN HAS BEEN REVIVED MORE TIMES THAN ONE.
We have two examples of Kharn surviving injuries that should have killed him.
We have only the information that Gaz sprayed a titan, but no information on how it was ruined. For all we know, it might have been destroyed by one of Thraka's Gargants.
Right guys, it's been fun watching all the bickering but can you all calm down?
We are talking about fluff.... you know something that isn't 100% right at the best of times, that frequently changes and is open to different interpretations.
I think from what I've read, that Big Mek Wurrzog doesn't think it's stupid, he just thinks as an ork player it's silly or possibly over the top, like some Khorne players may think the same of Ork fluff. Also if you read some of the earlier posts he also shows a good amount of knowledge about Khorne so he can't think it's that stupid.
Also in terms of the Ghaz spraying the titan, fair enough he may not have wrecked it but you can be sure he and his waaagh were responsible for it. Also considering even if he didn't Big Ghaz has had more than his share of glory/destruction/awesomeness over the years.
So can we get back to the topic at hand, Kharn.... find a loyalist equivalent to face him, failing that lets just leave it here
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: WOAH WOAH WOAH! Better hold your tounge dude, to many ork players consider an endlessly ressing emo-girl who cuts herself blood champion who doesn't just die is pretty stupid too man....
So essentially, you think the entire Khorne section of the fluff is stupid?
Have your own opinion then, but it's not one that many share.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: The reference is in our codex, the possibility is there but like THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE THAT KHARN HAS BEEN REVIVED MORE TIMES THAN ONE.
We have two examples of Kharn surviving injuries that should have killed him.
We have only the information that Gaz sprayed a titan, but no information on how it was ruined. For all we know, it might have been destroyed by one of Thraka's Gargants.
The idea is that to others he can be seen that way. It's a bad fan-ficition when the main character is mortally wounded so much that "it should kill a lesser man" imagine watching a movie where a dude is impaled through the chest over and over falls limp and they check his pulse and the hero is like "he's dead." ...they move on through the story and suddenly that villian shows up again ready to fight albeit bloody and mad.... That is an invoking moment to represent the character of that villain as being iron clad. No imagine it happned two more times after that fight... starts to get almost humorously bad doesn't it? eventually you realize the director or writer of the plot is ruining the whole scene with this monotonous theme of death defying endurance or divine favor.
I don't hate Kharn at all, I infact really love his role in 40k as a butcher of hundreds of thousands of men. His fluff is under played for his stats and all he seems to do is fight Slaanesh's troops more than loyalists now and days. What upsets me is when I read 7 pages of people trying to say vague entries like "no one know how kharn lives from these seemingly fatal wounds" is a testament to his toughness as oppose to his God reviving him. Guess what not even the fanboyz know so making an argument for or against is fine long as the idea of certain never enters the fray it's all the person's take on the text- perspective.
So when i make a similar claim to support a view as why some people have a rule and others don't and they just want to reverse the hat to say "Oh you made that up" when the idea is completely plausible that is infuriating to me. It's a double standard and impolite as hell to be accused of making something up as opposed to trying to just say "if the speech was written maybe ghazzy fought thing personally some how or dealt some of the final blows especially since this other warboss on a warbike dove into the cockpit of the exact same class of the titan and killed it from the inside while on fire no less"
So to say my idea is stupid because a codex special character is stupid, I rebuttal that your character is stupid... see how childish a comment like that is? You can say you feel the fluff is just not consistent or show never have been possible according to whatever you like. The moment you make a base claim is the moment you undermine your position and this no longer becomes a debate about kharn or the ability of people who peer him loyalist or no it just becomes an excuse to put people down under the disguise of attacking a codex when really you are saying those things to the person instead.
Kharn'd death defying list is as written
Angron vs Kharn ...
Angron attacked Khârn as soon as he entered, and came dangerously close to killing him, but Khârn kept his composure, in such contrast to the previous officers that Angron was reluctantly impressed. Khârn swore to Angron that his refusal to fight back was not cowardice, but rather the complete awe and obedience which all of the War Hounds held for their primarch. He also managed to convince Angron that, if Angron was hungry for war, then the entire Legion was at his command, and the Crusade offered a whole galaxy worth of enemies to slaughter.[2]
Khârn succeeded where the other Captains had failed, and led his primarch to the bridge of the ship to assume command of his Legion.[2]
Istavaan III ...
During the infighting on Isstvan III, Khârn was believed killed in action while fighting Garviel Loken of the Luna Wolves, a loyalist determined to stop Horus. Khârn engaged in close combat with Loken, only to be thrown against the dozer blades of a nearby vehicle, impaling his chest. It was believed that the blow was fatal, but this proved false.[3]
Battle For Terra ...
During the culminating siege of the Imperial Palace, Khârn was at the forefront of every assault. When the battle ended with the loyalist forces victorious, Khârn lay dead upon a mound of corpses at the walls of the Inner Palace. His fellow World Eaters carried his corpse away with them as they fought their way back to their ships. Once on board they discovered that by some dark miracle, he still lived.[1a] Whether Khorne himself breathed life back into the berserker's body or whether the relentless clamour of battle revived his blood-lusting spirit remains a mystery, but since the Heresy Khârn has survived the bloodiest battles to the current age and never came so close to death again[1a].
So we have 3 easily referenced within the main history of 40k and I am sure I could find more if I wanted to dig a big deeper, the codex entries themselves say it is impossible to know one way or the other but to me... this badass is the worst written dude ever if he is getting up of his own volition and regardless has been confirmed dead a little too much for my liking even with the spontaneous nature of the warp and CSM. Luckily these things i don't normally focus on when i envision Kharn i think more about how the poor guard must cower in front of him.
Ghazzy fighting a titan and living to tell the tale vs Your Khorne Champion being more a badass than Khorn'e favorite toy both are equally possible in my book so please if you are going to say one over the other end your posts with #fanboy
If we are talking about survival Ghazz survived a bullet to the head and was able to stumble to the medic not lie around complaining and this was while he was still a BOY not a warlord. I havent read the whole forum so someone may have already mentioned this.
Boss Grot Punt wrote: If we are talking about survival Ghazz survived a bullet to the head and was able to stumble to the medic not lie around complaining and this was while he was still a BOY not a warlord. I havent read the whole forum so someone may have already mentioned this.
I'm trying to avoid shining ghazzy's boots in this forum for anything other than a reference for what eternal warrior entails in game sense. And true Ghazzy was holding his brain and drooling the first time he saw Grotsnik.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: WOAH WOAH WOAH! Better hold your tounge dude, to many ork players consider an endlessly ressing emo-girl who cuts herself blood champion who doesn't just die is pretty stupid too man... and no making things up would be saying Ghazzy lifted off the ground ans screamed till he went super sayan and blew up the planet with his foot. The reference is in our codex, the possibility is there but like THE POSSIBILITY IS THERE THAT KHARN HAS BEEN REVIVED MORE TIMES THAN ONE. Void I swear dude you really need to ease up on your comments they are hostile as hell man. Probability in the possibility of a fluff entry is no different than what a large majority of you people are doing to even determine your Champion's equal...guessing.
So please SFTU if i do the same to make a reference why Kharn shouldn't get Eternal warrior and stay the exact same way he is in rules terms or state it supports why he shouldn't have it Via Fluff as well. If you can't say something nice please don't be a jerk about it I try not to be with you.
It's really weird, that you think I am the one who needs to calm down when you just went on a two post, multi-paragraph rant over what I said.
Also, you seem to be under the impression that I am a big Khorne and Kharn fan. Obviously my Magnus the Red (Tzeentchian Daemon Primarch) and Tzeentch-based status must have tipped you off on this.
I have never said I believe Kharn just gets up and survives fatal injuries due to being "tuff", like you seem to believe.
I will have to ask you to calm down.
Also, yes, you're making a very serious leap and assumption to say that Ghazghkuull took a hit from a Titan weapon. I mean, really, you can't backpedal from the fact that you were using him allegedly doing that as justification for Eternal Warrior (Which I think is really just plot armour, I mean, for example, Calgar is not as tough as a Carnifex. He's just not. But he has EW, they don't.) as just a "possibility", since while "possible", based on current evidence it is not "probable."
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Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: So when i make a similar claim to support a view as why some people have a rule and others don't and they just want to reverse the hat to say "Oh you made that up" when the idea is completely plausible that is infuriating to me.
It isn't plausible.
Calm down.
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Boss Grot Punt wrote: If we are talking about survival Ghazz survived a bullet to the head and was able to stumble to the medic not lie around complaining and this was while he was still a BOY not a warlord. I havent read the whole forum so someone may have already mentioned this.
That's just a natural trait of Orky biology though.
@ void, Don't ask me to calm down after calling me a liar or "made it up". A story + an conclusion to be drawn from it is no reason to say something that rude. Of course I am upset you just attacked me personally and to top it off you refuse to even apologize
And FYI in apoc, Ghazzy does survive a titan even stomping him to death you might not agree but i actually could see him surviving that, just like I could see Calgar surviving more punishment than a carnifrex due to high density armor and dual power fists. Infact I could see him defeating a carni in close combat being a veteran of the Tyranid invasions I would dare say he might have been forced to have done such a feat... he fought the Swarmlord for Emperor's sake, he lost but he fought and survived.
You are I aren't going to agree on alot, but i don't call you liar or say your fluff is stupid till you insult me personally. please show me the respect i deserve or gracefully ignore my comments if that is too hard for you.
You know who's a pretty good match for Kharn? Darnath Lysander. Good luck killing someone that does not die and have fun getting floored by a str 10 thunder hammer, Kharn. Don't worry, I'm sure Khorne will put your lifeless body back together like he always does provided he can find all the pieces.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: @ void, Don't ask me to calm down after calling me a liar or "made it up". A story + an conclusion to be drawn from it is no reason to say something that rude. Of course I am upset you just attacked me personally and to top it off you refuse to even apologize
And FYI in apoc, Ghazzy does survive a titan even stomping him to death you might not agree but i actually could see him surviving that, just like I could see Calgar surviving more punishment than a carnifrex due to high density armor and dual power fists. Infact I could see him defeating a carni in close combat being a veteran of the Tyranid invasions I would dare say he might have been forced to have done such a feat... he fought the Swarmlord for Emperor's sake, he lost but he fought and survived.
You are I aren't going to agree on alot, but i don't call you liar or say your fluff is stupid till you insult me personally. please show me the respect i deserve or gracefully ignore my comments if that is too hard for you.
I truly don't know why your feelings were hurt, but if I did indeed upset you I apologise. That was not my intention.
Er, Carnifexes have survived Exterminatus. And not a named one like OOE. Just a Carnifex, lol. I think Calgar would beat one in a fight, but that doesn't make him tougher. Also, I could see Ghaz surviving being stepped on by a Titan. Terminator Marines have. Taking a Volcano Cannon to the face is something else entirely.
You created a scenario that had little basis at all and tried to pass it off as evidence. Ergo, you made it up. It is an assumption you have concocted.
Also, I said a codice's fluff is stupid. Did you write that fluff piece BMW? How could I be calling you stupid then? I find Wazdakka's exploit to be stupid. You for some reason took that as a personal attack.
I don't hate Kharn at all, I infact really love his role in 40k as a butcher of hundreds of thousands of men. His fluff is under played for his stats and all he seems to do is fight Slaanesh's troops more than loyalists now and days.
So? That's what a lot of Chaos forces get up to, especially those devoted to a particular Power.
Kharn'd death defying list is as written
Angron vs Kharn ...
Angron decides not to kill Kharn. Kharn survives. What's your problem with that?
Istavaan III ...
As I recall he's explicitedly stated to still be moving after being impaled on the dozer blades (how could Loken still have seen him if he was impaled on dozer blades which were presumably facing away from im a second later)?
Battle For Terra ...
Yeah, so a key piece of his background saying that hedied and was brought back to life. The one time he's died. That's stated as fact, from a narrators viewpoint. I don't know why your arguing with it.
Also, is Wazdakkas run in with the Titan even meant to be taken seriously? I always assumed that it wasn't, particularly seeing as how it'd mean Warlord cockpits are poorly protected.
Also, is Wazdakkas run in with the Titan even meant to be taken seriously? I always assumed that it wasn't, particularly seeing as how it'd mean Warlord cockpits are poorly protected.
Nah his waaagh was being decimated by the Warlord Titan, exercising his power of dramatic timing the titan was apporaching near a mountain and from it's cliff drives Off Wazdakka from above crashing through its forcefield and being lit on fire he smashes through the cockpit and kills the operators inside while still ablazed. Pretty hilariously epic piece right there but 100% legit though i agree it sounds like a tall tale but that is how Wazdakka works he is doped up on drugs from painboyz outlawed by even ork kulture.
But the example was about Ghazzy surviving a heavy boot print whcih i think I think is possible since he has next to no real vitals anymore it would be like stomping a dice into the soft dirt it doesn't break it just pushes the die into the ground. I understand more than likely that titan is stomping around bedrock, but that is probably relatively soft to the biggest mega-warboss of the Ork society.
All things considered though it was more about Kharn again, I seriously am not trying to divert attention I am trying to simply say that to me Eternal warrior survives the things in fluff which sound utterly ridiculous and come back wanting more of it! Yarrick and most the others i can think of deserve to have it, Kharn to me... has simply a space marine physiology which makes him dead hard but not able to take something like the deadly thunderhammer to the face without being crushed into bits. Luckily Kharn butchers those kinds of people in a few moments.
@ void
Thank you for your apology, simply put I don't think the story of the Ghazzy's speech to the Imperium would have been posted less it was intended Ghazzy might have had a claim to it's demise personally. It just doesn't fit the Bravado of the Codex (which i understand you aren't a fan of...). regardless I have my beliefs and you will have yours. What i find aggervating though is the fact that you so eagerly dispel the ork Codex as though it is some horribly written thing which i actually enjoy reading. Further more you say it's fluff is not cannon or shouldn't be taken seriously but then you suggest that planet wide cleansing and a carni surviving (which again i actually like but is super unlikely just like your volcano cannon reference) is somehow far more valid and cannon.
Do you see how annoying that is? You realize the difference between these two is almost moot at well correct? Carni has 1 more point of toughness + regen while Ghazy has better armor, strength and immune to instant death. To me the examples are aggravating because you do no show consistency if it isn't in favor your own views. To say Ghazzy' stares down the barrel of a volcanoe cannon and manages to be clipped losing his shoota arm screaming for a moment before howling in pain before he remembers that he can't die on that battlefield he was destined to take down everything in the universe cause gork and mork told him. Now angry as all hell and smelling what's left of his skin cooking he wobbles underneath the behemoth and smashes his klaw into an importan leg bit from the heavily damaged titan causing it's to come crashing down and immobile killing off the tech priests who rush out of every hatch to try and fix the damage.
To me... that is completely something I would see the mighty Ghaz doing and then just getting Mad-Dok Grotsnik to fix his missing arm and get orkimedies to whip him up some new armor for that arm too. It's not likely, just like Kharn has no equal within the Imperium of man. It's all perspective and their is no way to prove any of this in a fantasy sci-fi story. Honestly the fact we've argued this long is frustrating and I am starting to keenly see the futility in our banter back and forth. Gonna give this a final try between you and me if we can't sort it out i will make my visits to dakka a lot less complicated but i really don't want to because normally you are great debater and i like that in people.
I just really don't approve of people saying I am a liar when my references checked out and were reasonable assumptions.
Kharn literally fought his primarch and lived to tell the tale
That is literally not at all what happened. The only reason Kharn lived to tell that tale is because he absolutely refused to fight no matter what Angron did to him. The few dozen first captains and champions (all presumably greater in station than Kharn) tried to put up a good fight and ended up giblets strewn across the carpet. Please don't make up lies.
Angron could have indeed killed Kharn at any time, had he been so inclined.
The "fight" started with Kharn suddenly finding himself pinned to a wall, arm and some ribs broken, Angron having moved and pinned him their faster than Kharn could even perceive.
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because i was joking.... wow dense. sorry... but that is dense
