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That's nowhere near the best description ever

But Ghaz is not lumberingly slow, nor is he imprecise. If that was the case, he'd never be able to defeat Yarrick.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Does Kharn ever retreat? I assume he has some moments of lucid thought, and will respond to reason by leaving a battlefield if his destruction is immanent.

Then again Khorne has resurrected Kharn once, perhaps twice, in the fluff and if this is the case then perhaps it happens more often than is originally thought.

I think Kharn would annihilate Ghaz in a one on one fight. Lumbering movents versus aggressive precision. At the very least Ghaz is loosing the majority of his limbs.

Affraid not, in fluff Ghaz only respects one human Yarrick and it isn't for his ability to fight it's his tenacity to take a beating for such a small man and the fact he can warn Yarrick his troops will arrive on a planet and he knows that Yarrick will do exactly what Ghazzy wants which is warn the Imperium and give him a good fight for his Waaagh. Kharn has the speed but not the protection nor the damage to kill Ghazzy as easily as his normal enemies, Kharn in all his fluff hasn't been noted as a supreme duelist though his rules and fluff suggest he is very good. Ultimately Gorechild would maybe strike him once or even twice but not deal anything close to a mortal blow or a decimating one either Especially if he is running with his normal entourage of mega Nobz + Grotsnik.

A fluff on fluff battle Kharn loses, a game side on side would end no better for Kharn he just isn't built to fight someone who can generate a 2+ invul on command that one klaw strike will kill with only a minor 5+ to save himself. In the end Kharn would lose but that is because they aren't meant to do the same thing Ghazzy is meant to kill arrogant Commanders and monstrous creatures ripping them to pieces while Kharn is meant to slaughter men in droves different specialists ina game of rock paper scissors.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:


Kharn in all his fluff hasn't been noted as a supreme duelist though his rules and fluff suggest he is very good.

1) Contradict much?
2) Ghaz doesn't really have much saying he's a good duelist either. Unless I've missed something.

Is one god's avatar of war better than another god's avatar of war (throw in the Avatar and you've got a 3rd....)? Probably not. They're probably pretty evenly matched, all things considered, well other than the Avatar... that thing gets beaten by everybody.

Meh. I would argue that Ghaz has more experience in actual war than Kharn does.

Kharn slaughters. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka, however, makes war.

 Shrike325 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:


Kharn in all his fluff hasn't been noted as a supreme duelist though his rules and fluff suggest he is very good.

1) Contradict much?

Better notify Websters Supreme is now the same thing as "very good"

I know you said loyalist but I'm goin to go with guard here and say Commisar Yarrack would hand kharne his ass

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 DeathRex wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
I think the OP was asking for a Space Marine (loyalist) who could defeat Kharn or equal him.

thats correct, thats what i wanted

I'd say similar to Kharn's status himself, it would take champions of the Imperium such as Dante, Mephiston, ect to match him. I do however think Yarrick is a candidate, Since Yarrick is the only person Ghaz respects for his stubbornness and we don't doubt Ghaz would give Kharn a hard run for his money both rules and fluff wise. I would say it isn't a stretch to think the undying Yarrick would be a decent match for him, the Bald Eye and his strength matches Kharn even with his unholy weapon It's only when Charge is on a warpath or "charging" that Yarrick would be considered weaker.

His klaw isn't enough to outright crush the slayer of men and iirc his 4+ save is invulnerable. It would come down to a match of wills just gently in the favor of Kharn i would think because Even when Kharn would think he had finished Old Man Yarrick he would Stand up screaming for the Emperor and hold the line.

Other than that I agree with what most people have been saying as decent matches.

Yarrick is one of my favorite 40k characters, on par with Lukas Bastonne, but he would get destroyed by Kharn. His fight with Ghazghkull makes him epic, and really tenacious, but Yarrick only survived due to insane plot armor. The fact that Ghazghkull couldn't crush Yarrick immediately is as much a discredit to Ghaz as it is credit to Yarrick. Kharn wouldn't toy around with him. The fight would start with Kharn splitting Yarrick in two.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, his stats are stupidly inflated, his line is nearly on par with the Primarch stats from the new HH book, and roughly what they were in 2nd ed. If Kharn also had his 2nd ed stats, he'd be just as silly.

His stats mean less than nothing to me.

In the fluff, he has ripped Carnifexes to pieces barehanded.

So have ordinary humans, but let's not get too deeply in to that.

 Just Dave wrote:
I struggle to understand why people believe any standard Space Marine could seriously/reliably equal him (though Sanguinor could be a good call).

Because Kharn hasn't done gak to prove all the hype the fandom places on him.

Sanguinor isn't a Space Marine, and has bested one of the mightiest of all Bloodthirsters in single combat. I personally don't think it is a question whether or not Sanguinor could beat Kharn.

Kharn has more experience than any, Dante included, as well as the backing of Khorne and being amongst the greatest hand-to-hand combatants of the Great Crusade era IIRC.

Yet for all that experience, he hasn't done much of anything. Dante on the other hand has cut Skarbrand in half.

Also, Bjorn it must be said is roughly as experienced, and even had a decent showing against Magnus, but being a Dreadnought he may not count.

As for Mephiston, his greatest strength is his psychic ability; something largely ignored by Kharn/Khorne.

His greatest strength is being as strong as a Greater Daemon, physically mighty enough to strangle Daemon Princes and brutalise Carnifexes.

When discussing Kharn's accomplishments, it's also worth noting IMHO that we don't know what he got up to during Betrayer (novel; where he gains Gorefather) or the Siege of Terra.

That's exactly it: We don't know.

I am eagerly waiting for Kharn to actually get some feats to justify his hype as death on two legs, but that has yet to happen.


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 Melissia wrote:
So have ordinary humans, but let's not get too deeply in to that.

Mind naming some?

You have me intrigued.

Besides, all you need to beat kharn is a kitten.

I demand an answer to my question.

Please.

Your question wasn't there when I made that post

I was thinking of Saint Praxedes, actually. But she killed a hive tyrant, not a Carnifex. Probably a more impressive feat, but whatever.

Ah, but we lack context, don't we? How did she kill it?

Mephiston didn't just "kill" a Carnifex. He tore it to part with his bare-hands. Literally.

He is undoubtedly the most powerful loyalist Marine who isn't a Grey Knight or a possible reincarnation of a Primarch, IMHO.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ah, but we lack context, don't we? How did she kill it?

One on one in close combat.

My point is, killing a Tyranid monstrous creature is something that any named character can probably do.

Now, killing a NAMED Tyranid monstrous creature (and not just some random boring named one that is tossed aside immediately afterwards), THAT is more impressive. But I don't see him beating the Swarmlord or anything.

Kharn's achievements really aren't that impressive. Hell, Calgar's are more impressive. Kharn just sort of strikes me as a guy who's good at slaughtering armies but not necessarily good at fighting champions dedicated to killing people like Kharn. Pretty much any combat-focused Imperial Saint (such as Celestine or Praxedes) is going to be able to defeat Kharn in my book, and plenty of loyalist Marines as well (Sanguinius, Calgar, probably some Space Wolf characters), as would many of the more powerful warbosses (such as Ghazzy) and named Tyranid monstrous creatures (swarmlord, redeye). The Eldar Phoenix Lords would probably treat him like a minor nuisance, and I'm fairly certain that Lelith Hesperax would find him an amusing prey-- but just a prey. And let's not get started on the C'tan, even in their reduced forms...

Just about the only codex represented race that wouldn't have a combatant equal to or greater than Kharn is the Tau. And that's only because they loathe close combat-- they'd kill him from afar.

 Melissia wrote:
One on one in close combat.

A quick check of the White Dwarf codex (Seriously, sucks to be a Sisters player) verifies that she did indeed kill it in melee, but died herself from her wounds.

She also had a pretty kickass power mace to help her.

My point is, killing a Tyranid monstrous creature is something that any named character can probably do.

Given the right circumstances sure. The amount that could do so in close combat is somewhat smaller, and the amount that could do so unarmed is incredibly small, among Imperial forces at the very least.

Mephiston did this without his Force sword or his psychic powers.

Now, killing a NAMED Tyranid monstrous creature (and not just some random boring named one that is tossed aside immediately afterwards), THAT is more impressive. But I don't see him beating the Swarmlord or anything.

It depends on how impressive you think the Swarmlord is compared to M'kar I guess. M'kar and the Swarmlord have one thing in common: They have laid Marneus Calgar low (The Swarmlord inflicted the more grievous wounds on him, but it also had a full retinue backing it).

Kharn's achievements really aren't that impressive. Hell, Calgar's are more impressive. Kharn just sort of strikes me as a guy who's good at slaughtering armies but not necessarily good at fighting champions dedicated to killing people like Kharn. Pretty much any combat-focused Imperial Saint (such as Celestine or Praxedes) is going to be able to defeat Kharn in my book, and plenty of loyalist Marines as well (Sanguinius, Calgar, probably some Space Wolf characters), as would many of the more powerful warbosses (such as Ghazzy) and named Tyranid monstrous creatures (swarmlord, redeye). The Eldar Phoenix Lords would probably treat him like a minor nuisance, and I'm fairly certain that Lelith Hesperax would find him an amusing prey-- but just a prey. And let's not get started on the C'tan, even in their reduced forms...

Calgar has very impressive feats, and in a feat war Calgar would indeed win.

I find it interesting that you bring up Lelith Hesperax. I ask you: What has she done? She's killed nameless Space Marines. So has Kharn, and in far greater numbers. She frankly suffers from the same problems Kharn does: All hype, nothing to justify it. Frankly, she even has substantially less hype than Kharn does, and Kharn at least has one decentish feat (He survived a beating from Angron, though admittedly Angron could have killed him at any time).

Bringing up the C'tan is just silly. In their fully powered forms, in the materium, a one on fight with a C'tan means you lost: Period. Even in the pre-newcron fluff, the God-Emperor of Mankind himself had to put forth a mighty effort to best a weakened and starved Void Dragon. But yeah, even as shards, the fluff descriptions of their abilities alone is impossibly broken, to an extent no psychic power I can recall has matched. Crazy gak like reality itself unfolding in their presence alone, wielding dark matter as projectile weaponry, or sending their foes back to the Big Bang itself. So yeah, one of them would murderstomp Kharn, and as of now IMO anyone on the list (Inevitably though, Marneus Calgar will use the pimp gloves of Ultramar to give them the Khaine treatment...).

Though, let me say, I agree with the gist of what you are saying. Kharn simply doesn't have the feats to back up his hype... But similarly, he doesn't have the losses to suggest he sucks ass in one on one combat either. Kharn IMHO should be a beast in martial combat one on one, but he simply doesn't have the showings other characters have at the moment. So, until he gets them, yeah, you can't really objectively say much about his prowess in a duel.

Just about the only codex represented race that wouldn't have a combatant equal to or greater than Kharn is the Tau. And that's only because they loathe close combat-- they'd kill him from afar.

Farsight beats everyone in melee combat.

Everyone.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


A quick check of the White Dwarf codex (Seriously, sucks to be a Sisters player) verifies that she did indeed kill it in melee, but died herself from her wounds.

She also had a pretty kickass power mace to help her.

IMO this is more than enough to say plausibility because we know Mephy was using psyker powers to enhance himself more than likely or at the very least is easily capable of it in fluff. So to me the fact a SOB achieved a similar feat but it cost her life for the sake of faithfully taking a stand... I'd say that is pretty damn impressive considering carnies have survived Exterminatus before.

Farsight beats everyone in melee combat.

Everyone.

This one just intrigues me especially because of his blunder in the Waaagh of Dakka, could you explain what you mean?

Kharn does have another feat according to "The Butcher's Nails"; he's the strongest World Eater gladiator in their pits before he got any Chaos backing (meaning he fought on level with guys like pre-Heresy Sigismund) and fought a daemon possessed Argel Tal on equal-footing.

They're not amazing feats, but they are feats.

its already been said but Lucius would probably wreck kharn in both fluff and tabletop

In terms of game stats at least, if Kharn gets off a charge against Thraka (most likely scenario), in a challenge Kharn will inflict 3.8 wounds on Thraka at I5 through his Invul save, killing him 4 times out of 5 before he can respond. If Thraka lives, his Klaw likely crushed Kharn, but only through ID, inflicting only an average of 1.388 wounds.

Hitting on 2's with rerolls and wounding on 2's with an AP2 weapon and 7 attacks is a hilarious thing.

Against Lucius, Kharn, through his "I hit on 2's and get rerolls in the first round of CC" rule and higher Strength, will generally inflict wounds at about a 2-1 ratio against Lucius.

Nerm86 wrote:
No it is not a demon weapon but it might as well be

But in background terms, he doesn't have a Daemon lending a helping hand, and we've no idea what the favour of Khorne exactly attributes him with.

In no way was i implying that he 'starts swinging hoping..." i meant that it his fighting style brute force over technique, fighting with his brawn rather than with his brain. Obviously im over-simplyfying but that is the way i interpret the fluff

"as though he hadnt even raised a weapon to defend with" suggests to me that he wouldn't be using any skill whatsoever.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

I find it interesting that you bring up Lelith Hesperax. I ask you: What has she done? She's killed nameless Space Marines. So has Kharn, and in far greater numbers. She frankly suffers from the same problems Kharn does: All hype, nothing to justify it. Frankly, she even has substantially less hype than Kharn does, and Kharn at least has one decentish feat (He survived a beating from Angron, though admittedly Angron could have killed him at any time).

I think it's sad that killing a substantial number of highly trained and potent Berserkers (as Kharn does in one story) single-handedly isn't considered a substantial feat. But then again, I ascribe to the theory that aside from a few much larger creatures and Daemons, something killing a Marine in hand-to-hand shouldn't be that easy. Hence the whole Grimnar (I think) getting a salute from Angron (I think) for killing three Berserkers (not sure if it was at the same time or one after the other) in close combat. Guess that's the way it actually goes though; much like anyone, nameless characters are generally just fodder and so even killing a very large number of them isn't a big deal.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
IMO this is more than enough to say plausibility because we know Mephy was using psyker powers to enhance himself more than likely or at the very least is easily capable of it in fluff. So to me the fact a SOB achieved a similar feat but it cost her life for the sake of faithfully taking a stand... I'd say that is pretty damn impressive considering carnies have survived Exterminatus before.

Possible, but I'd like to think an important detail like that would have made its way into the fluff.

But then... This is a Ward-penned codex, who tends to write duels being pretty vague (I dunno if the same line is in an older Blood Angels codex).

Also, she killed a Hive Tyrant, not a Carnifex. Carnifexes are physicaly similar in most regards, just slower and stronger.

This one just intrigues me especially because of his blunder in the Waaagh of Dakka, could you explain what you mean?

I am saying Commander Farsight would romp through Ghazghkuull, all the Primarchs, the Emperor, and Khorne himself in martial combat.

The Emprah.

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Ah, but we lack context, don't we? How did she kill it?

One on one in close combat.

My point is, killing a Tyranid monstrous creature is something that any named character can probably do.

In that case, I'm going to drop Inquisitor Solomon Lok here. Killed a Biotitan single handedly, something which he can't actually do on TT.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
IMO this is more than enough to say plausibility because we know Mephy was using psyker powers to enhance himself more than likely or at the very least is easily capable of it in fluff. So to me the fact a SOB achieved a similar feat but it cost her life for the sake of faithfully taking a stand... I'd say that is pretty damn impressive considering carnies have survived Exterminatus before.

Possible, but I'd like to think an important detail like that would have made its way into the fluff.

But then... This is a Ward-penned codex, who tends to write duels being pretty vague (I dunno if the same line is in an older Blood Angels codex).

Also, she killed a Hive Tyrant, not a Carnifex. Carnifexes are physicaly similar in most regards, just slower and stronger.

This one just intrigues me especially because of his blunder in the Waaagh of Dakka, could you explain what you mean?

I am saying Commander Farsight would romp through Ghazghkuull, all the Primarchs, the Emperor, and Khorne himself in martial combat.

He's being sarcastic.

That is a beautiful image though...

 Vaktathi wrote:
In terms of game stats at least, if Kharn gets off a charge against Thraka (most likely scenario), in a challenge Kharn will inflict 3.8 wounds on Thraka at I5 through his Invul save, killing him 4 times out of 5 before he can respond. If Thraka lives, his Klaw likely crushed Kharn, but only through ID, inflicting only an average of 1.388 wounds.

Hitting on 2's with rerolls and wounding on 2's with an AP2 weapon and 7 attacks is a hilarious thing.

Against Lucius, Kharn, through his "I hit on 2's and get rerolls in the first round of CC" rule and higher Strength, will generally inflict wounds at about a 2-1 ratio against Lucius.

You clearly don't know Ghazzy's rules he can declare the waaagh at any time... even during Kharn's charge and his 2+ armor becomes invulnerable.... so no he'd be luck to cause 2 wounds to Ghazzy. Only through sheer bad rolls woudld Ghazzy die to Kharn. Please learn rules before saying something silly.

Ghazghul

Has to be a loyalist you say? Well then for the EMPERAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

Boss Grot Punt wrote:
Ghazghul

Has to be a loyalist you say? Well then for the EMPERAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

We'll become LOYALISTS all right....

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
In terms of game stats at least, if Kharn gets off a charge against Thraka (most likely scenario), in a challenge Kharn will inflict 3.8 wounds on Thraka at I5 through his Invul save, killing him 4 times out of 5 before he can respond. If Thraka lives, his Klaw likely crushed Kharn, but only through ID, inflicting only an average of 1.388 wounds.

Hitting on 2's with rerolls and wounding on 2's with an AP2 weapon and 7 attacks is a hilarious thing.

Against Lucius, Kharn, through his "I hit on 2's and get rerolls in the first round of CC" rule and higher Strength, will generally inflict wounds at about a 2-1 ratio against Lucius.

You clearly don't know Ghazzy's rules he can declare the waaagh at any time... even during Kharn's charge and his 2+ armor becomes invulnerable.... so no he'd be luck to cause 2 wounds to Ghazzy. Only through sheer bad rolls woudld Ghazzy die to Kharn. Please learn rules before saying something silly.

Let's see... So Kharn charges. That's 7 S7 attacks. He hits on 2s, so let's say that he gets 5/7 hits on average. Because of Hatred, he gets to reroll, so presumably he'll hit with all 7 attacks. That's S7 vs T5, so wounds on 2s. That's 5 wounds. If Ghaz doesn't have Waaagh available, then he's boned, and Kharn wins. If he does, which we'll assume for the sake of this battle, then he'll take 1 or 2 wounds. The next round, he can hit Kharn and kill him instantly because of instant death.