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 Just Dave wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 psychadelicmime wrote:
If it has to be a human, than I would have to say bjorn the fell handed, that or mephiston. Otherwise, if it could be xenos, and it is not limited to close combat, then the clear answer would be 6 broadsides.

Wait, I thought you said human?

Those are marines, not humans.

Are... Are you actually claiming that?

Of course I am, I actually pay attention to the lore. They're not genetically human any more than ratlings or ogryns are-- and hell, they're not even human in matters of psychology.

Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..

I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.

The image i have in my head of Kharn's fighting style is complete and utter agression, always attacking, and very little sense of self-preservation. i dont think you would ever hear the phrase "Kharn is on the defensive" or "Kharn is on the backfoot". I think an exeptionally 'cunning' warrior like Ragnar Blackmane or Logan Grimnar would be a match. Ragnar has 'incredible lightning reflexes' to avoid Kharn's attacks and the cunning side would be luring him into a trap or bad environment. it would be a pretty damn epic battle and i would love to see more space wolf involvement in the current fluff. (if they are and i dont know about it let me know book names)

nerm86

Nerm86 wrote:
Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..

I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.

The image i have in my head of Kharn's fighting style is complete and utter agression, always attacking, and very little sense of self-preservation. i dont think you would ever hear the phrase "Kharn is on the defensive" or "Kharn is on the backfoot". I think an exeptionally 'cunning' warrior like Ragnar Blackmane or Logan Grimnar would be a match. Ragnar has 'incredible lightning reflexes' to avoid Kharn's attacks and the cunning side would be luring him into a trap or bad environment. it would be a pretty damn epic battle and i would love to see more space wolf involvement in the current fluff. (if they are and i dont know about it let me know book names)

nerm86

Actually swordplay is incredibly aggressive.

When a fighter is "on the defensive," it means they're losing.

Not necessarily. There's plenty of styles that prefer to minimize movements and force the opponent to make mistakes.

 Melissia wrote:
Not necessarily. There's plenty of styles that prefer to minimize movements and force the opponent to make mistakes.

And all of them lose to Kharn...

All effective styles focus on minimizing movements, but the height of Western swordplay (Which is presumably what 40k's swordplay would take after more than others, at least for the Imperium), aka the German school of fencing (Despite the name, it was taught all throughout Germany, not just Germany) focused largely on attack. The best manner of fighting was a strike that managed to seriously threaten your opponent while diverting damage from yourself (Kharn in a few fluff pieces largely fights like this, using his chainaxe to simultaneously counter and strike). Passively defending is seen as the worst form of combat.

Granted, even in Europe, some styles of swordplay were different. The English style of swordplay was based more in defense than the German one.

But I dislike the notion that aggression in combat makes it easier for people to get through your defenses, or whatever.

Also, barring Grey Knight clownfoolery, Mephiston is almost certainly the mightiest loyalist Space Marine. He can rip Carnifexes to pieces bare-handed. I can't see Kharn beating him.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
All effective styles focus on minimizing movements, but the height of Western swordplay (Which is presumably what 40k's swordplay would take after more than others, at least for the Imperium), aka the German school of fencing (Despite the name, it was taught all throughout Germany, not just Germany) focused largely on attack. The best manner of fighting was a strike that managed to seriously threaten your opponent while diverting damage from yourself (Kharn in a few fluff pieces largely fights like this, using his chainaxe to simultaneously counter and strike). Passively defending is seen as the worst form of combat.

Granted, even in Europe, some styles of swordplay were different. The English style of swordplay was based more in defense than the German one.

But I dislike the notion that aggression in combat makes it easier for people to get through your defenses, or whatever.

Also, barring Grey Knight clownfoolery, Mephiston is almost certainly the mightiest loyalist Space Marine. He can rip Carnifexes to pieces bare-handed. I can't see Kharn beating him.

For mephiston, Khorne provided us with Skulltaker (who has actually killed a carnifex and a trygon at the same time in one round of cc for me in game). As for Kharns "swordplay", he uses an axe thats head is as wide as a space marines torso from shoulder to shoulder. I just dont see him using that for simple thrusts and defensive parries, like one would a saber or other european longsword. I kinda envision him in a crowd of sniviling Imperials with a crazed look on his face (the kind a lumberjack has before he goes to town on some pathetic rainforest that is on the endangered list and about to go extinct) and then begins chopping away with such extreme violence that would make even the kind of fictional killer like leatherface puke his guts out.

 BudForTheBeerGod wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Not necessarily. There's plenty of styles that prefer to minimize movements and force the opponent to make mistakes.

And all of them lose to Kharn...

clearly you've not actually had serious swordplay. I Not only was a preformer of swordplay i sought it out as recreation with SCA and Dagorhir. Aggression is foolish, it hyper extends you and leaves you far more likely to die than anything else. Everyone's bold imaginings of Kharn rushing in is probably accurate but I would say for sake of realism it's his demonic energy and demon weapon that does most the leg work. A truly defensive fighter like a shieldman laughs at aggression finding it easier to shift one's weight and let a baseball heavy swing turn into a pass glance with no true force all because of 1 foot step then another foreward like a tackle to knock them off center. It's why i applaud stormshields because in true combat shields demoralize anyone i have ever fought their only hope is to kick against a shield which normally ends in their planted foot bleeding from a solid blow even through armor knocking them to the ground then you just kneel and plant your shield ontop of their face and go to town on their limbs...

I understand this is a kharn fanboy post and i've done enough to disrupt it... but please stop making these sort of stupid comments... they lack logic.

It is called sarcasm, big mek, and while you may have played with a foil and participated in the sca's authentic "heavy combat" involving bamboo and armor where a glancing hit to the steel helm results in an out (where I am from thats called "tag" with baseball bats), you are forgetting that the entire scenario is not real, in that this is an 8 meter tall superhuman warrior with brain "reconstruction" in robo-cop armor, wielding a massive chainsaw axe who has the blessing of a supreme blood god to murder all sissy-ness that he encounters with impunity, and is by all accounts exceedingly good at his job even by his fellows standards. Why would he follow the normal rules to close combat war as we currently know it, when he breaks almost every other rule of war, science and religion as we know it?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Aggression is foolish

Except according to the German Fightmasters who wrote the book on swordplay. Literally.

Nerm86 wrote:
Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..

I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.

IIRC that number was just for the campaign he was currently fighting in, not his total kills.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Aggression is foolish

Except according to the German Fightmasters who wrote the book on swordplay. Literally.

this is going to veer into off topic conversation. I will simply say i agree to disagree because the sword is far older than the inception of Germany. Suffice to say two handed weaponry was a favored weapon due to the barbaric tribes of Germania back in the day. But you have the huns, rome, china, and older civilizations which also "wrote the book" it's all valid but from personal experience i can say this much, Combat isn't about showing off or going hardcore, it can be but these styles rarely are successful long term (meaning they are dangerous but maybe successful during the time employed).

Either way i accept the fact 40k doesn't use natural combat as a prime example, infact very few fantasy styles do. Every culture had their own ways but i found proper guards and practices movement were always the better things to make muscle memory as oppose to trying to overpower. Then again... I love the concept of orks so

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Aggression is foolish

Except according to the German Fightmasters who wrote the book on swordplay. Literally.

this is going to veer into off topic conversation. I will simply say i agree to disagree because the sword is far older than the inception of Germany. Suffice to say two handed weaponry was a favored weapon due to the barbaric tribes of Germania back in the day. But you have the huns, rome, china, and older civilizations which also "wrote the book" it's all valid but from personal experience i can say this much, Combat isn't about showing off or going hardcore, it can be but these styles rarely are successful long term (meaning they are dangerous but maybe successful during the time employed).

Either way i accept the fact 40k doesn't use natural combat as a prime example, infact very few fantasy styles do. Every culture had their own ways but i found proper guards and practices movement were always the better things to make muscle memory as oppose to trying to overpower. Then again... I love the concept of orks so

Being agressive doesn't have to mean that you're trying to clobber your enemy into the dirt like some sort of berserker though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Aggression is foolish

Except according to the German Fightmasters who wrote the book on swordplay. Literally.

this is going to veer into off topic conversation. I will simply say i agree to disagree because the sword is far older than the inception of Germany. Suffice to say two handed weaponry was a favored weapon due to the barbaric tribes of Germania back in the day. But you have the huns, rome, china, and older civilizations which also "wrote the book" it's all valid but from personal experience i can say this much, Combat isn't about showing off or going hardcore, it can be but these styles rarely are successful long term (meaning they are dangerous but maybe successful during the time employed).

Either way i accept the fact 40k doesn't use natural combat as a prime example, infact very few fantasy styles do. Every culture had their own ways but i found proper guards and practices movement were always the better things to make muscle memory as oppose to trying to overpower. Then again... I love the concept of orks so

Being agressive doesn't have to mean that you're trying to clobber your enemy into the dirt like some sort of berserker though.

Correct that was my orginal point. Styles are just that styles; both worth going all out which most people imagine Kharn as doing isn't the way you win a true fight. So saying something like Ragnar being defensive in battle until an opening appears is 100% valid to state. It shouldn't mean you are winning or losing. it's completely null in point anyone could win no matter who is offensive or defensive.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
Someone mentioned what Kharn's kill count in his helmet was..

I remember reading a really old story in a White Dwarf easily 10 years ago and i remember the number being really pathetically small like 1500-1700 or something like that. I remember being very dismayed and dissappointed at the time but how small the number was.

IIRC that number was just for the campaign he was currently fighting in, not his total kills.

okay now that makes complete sence to me now.

All the fluff on Kharn and Khorne Bezerkers always states how they are filled with rage. And that is how i see Kharn fighting, not elegant, not sophisticated, but pure agression. he wouldnt parry and thrust, he would just batter through his opponents deffences as though he hadnt even raised a weapon to defend with and mostly relying on the demon weapon to kill and his armour to protect (too all those who have played Spacemarine will sorta know what i mean)

some people are pointing out that he 'hasnt fought anyone great' or whatever, the fluff i have read has him mostly as going up against PDF forces and civillian populations rather than against space marines and the like. His power armour would be 90% effective against all the weapons that PDF forces and civilians could bring to bear against him and for that other 10% he has Khorne looking out for him.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Being agressive doesn't have to mean that you're trying to clobber your enemy into the dirt like some sort of berserker though.

Being some sort of berserker doesn't mean that you stop being skilful. Going berserk does not negatively affect a mans performance. There's a reason that berserkers in real life were always feared.

Nerm86 wrote:he wouldnt parry and thrust, he would just batter through his opponents deffences

Actually, he does parry. He doesn't just charge blindly in and start swinging hoping that someone doesn't manage to stop such a clumsy blow. There's a short story in Kharn leads some berserkers against a Slaaneshi palace, and butchers all he goes against. He also ends up fighting a group of his own berserkers and wins single-handedly, no mean feat.

Is his chain-axe actually Daemon weapon? I've ne er heard that before.

No it is not a demon weapon but it might as well be (in game terms anyway). i just couldnt think of another term that describes it better. It is a 'relative' of the one Angron used, Angron used Gorefather and Kharn uses Gorechild. I think in the one if the earlier HH books Horus had it in his collection trophies won in the crusade and Kharn either took it or was given it.

In no way was i implying that he 'starts swinging hoping..." i meant that it his fighting style brute force over technique, fighting with his brawn rather than with his brain. Obviously im over-simplyfying but that is the way i interpret the fluff

Guys, this is getting out of hand, Kharn kills people, with an axe. That is the one constant in 40k fluff that matters. The rest has been and will be changed time and time again until gw goes out of business. Just count your blessings that for now, Matt Ward hasnt gotten his grubby little paws on chaos and given it his "special attention". That said, this thread is supposed to be about which of the false emperor's lap-dogs think they can take on Kharn. The answer is none, but feel free to discuss anyway...

I would have to say I don't think Khorne shows too many signs of having honor on his mind. I think there is a ting of honor to him...only in the regard that he loves a fair fight. But by fair fight I don't mean a gentleman's duel, I mean the potential of equal power between the two fighting. However, if Kharn kicks sand in his face and slays him....Khorne is happy all the same. His ideals have a ting of Honor to them, but only in the slightest amount. "Honor" or "Chivalry" as the average human would define these, are not part of Khorne's aspect. As long as the power between the two sides are gonna make for a good fight, it's no holds bar.

 Rysaer wrote:
I think the OP was asking for a Space Marine (loyalist) who could defeat Kharn or equal him.

thats correct, thats what i wanted

 DeathRex wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
I think the OP was asking for a Space Marine (loyalist) who could defeat Kharn or equal him.

thats correct, thats what i wanted

I'd say similar to Kharn's status himself, it would take champions of the Imperium such as Dante, Mephiston, ect to match him. I do however think Yarrick is a candidate, Since Yarrick is the only person Ghaz respects for his stubbornness and we don't doubt Ghaz would give Kharn a hard run for his money both rules and fluff wise. I would say it isn't a stretch to think the undying Yarrick would be a decent match for him, the Bald Eye and his strength matches Kharn even with his unholy weapon It's only when Charge is on a warpath or "charging" that Yarrick would be considered weaker.

His klaw isn't enough to outright crush the slayer of men and iirc his 4+ save is invulnerable. It would come down to a match of wills just gently in the favor of Kharn i would think because Even when Kharn would think he had finished Old Man Yarrick he would Stand up screaming for the Emperor and hold the line.

Other than that I agree with what most people have been saying as decent matches.

By feats alone Ghazghkuull would romp through Kharn.

Kharn, for all his hype, hasn't actually done much.

Going by background material, here's my 2 cents:

Equal to Kharn: Dante, Crowe (he fought Skulltaker to a draw), Calgar, Helbrecht, Logan, Ragnar

Superior to Kharn: Mephiston, Sanguinor, Draigo

I think all the other named SM would die heroically trying to defeat him.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Also, barring Grey Knight clownfoolery, Mephiston is almost certainly the mightiest loyalist Space Marine. He can rip Carnifexes to pieces bare-handed. I can't see Kharn beating him.

To be fair, his stats are stupidly inflated, his line is nearly on par with the Primarch stats from the new HH book, and roughly what they were in 2nd ed. If Kharn also had his 2nd ed stats, he'd be just as silly.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
By feats alone Ghazghkuull would romp through Kharn.

Kharn, for all his hype, hasn't actually done much.

This may be the first time We've agreed that I can recall this month All the same glad we do

Kharn isn't really a warleader, he doesn't set out to accomplish great deeds, he's a murder-machine. Comparing him to something like Ghaz doesn't really work in that respect.

And one-on-one, I think Ghaz vs. Kharn will be closer than people give Kharn credit for. That said, I do belief Ghaz would still come out on top.

I struggle to understand why people believe any standard Space Marine could seriously/reliably equal him (though Sanguinor could be a good call). Kharn has more experience than any, Dante included, as well as the backing of Khorne and being amongst the greatest hand-to-hand combatants of the Great Crusade era IIRC.
As for Mephiston, his greatest strength is his psychic ability; something largely ignored by Kharn/Khorne.

When discussing Kharn's accomplishments, it's also worth noting IMHO that we don't know what he got up to during Betrayer (novel; where he gains Gorefather) or the Siege of Terra.

 Just Dave wrote:
And one-on-one, I think Ghaz vs. Kharn will be closer than people give Kharn credit for. That said, I do belief Ghaz would still come out on top.

I struggle to understand why people believe any standard Space Marine could seriously/reliably equal him (though Sanguinor could be a good call). Kharn has more experience than any, Dante included, as well as the backing of Khorne and being amongst the greatest hand-to-hand combatants of the Great Crusade era IIRC.
As for Mephiston, his greatest strength is his psychic ability; something largely ignored by Kharn/Khorne.

When discussing Kharn's accomplishments, it's also worth noting IMHO that we don't know what he got up to during Betrayer (novel; where he gains Gorefather) or the Siege of Terra.

It wouldn't be Equal, It would be a massacre of Khrone's champion. Ghaz is a metaphor for the mighty tyrant or behemoth. He Represents brutality as a means of creating society "Do as I say" type of thing. It's the idea that a leader of pirates could kill the leader of the vikings type of thing they operate differently plot wise but above all else they represent different things in the 40k universe as well

When Ghaz charges the ground quakes and buildings are tackled and rending into wreckage Kharn may kill all of Ghaz' body guards Ghaz's skull and body would be more than capable of absorbing the damage ESPECIALLY If he was filled with an unleashing commandment of Waaagh from Gork and Mork. I highly doubt Kharn is stupid enough to even get near Ghaz's warband infact he probably provides plenty of ravaged systems and planets for Kharn to enjoy slaughtering while they try and rebuild

The ideals of Orks and Khorne are pretty damn similar, but Ghaz and Kharn are probably never destine to meet in battle not from a lack of trying but simply because they go where the most enemies are, and if both are in the same area very little is left and Chaos is able to slip away well before Orks arrive.

Khorne cannot completely block out psychic power, especially if you use it to amplify your own combat abilities-- teleportation, predicting the enemy's moves through divination, increasing his strength and toughness, healing damage, etc.

There are also psychic powers that can completely and utterly ignore such protections from Khorne, if you listen to the FFG supplements-- one in particular burns the body and soul of everyone nearby, ignoring all protection, be it daemonic or otherwise.

Does Kharn ever retreat? I assume he has some moments of lucid thought, and will respond to reason by leaving a battlefield if his destruction is immanent.

Then again Khorne has resurrected Kharn once, perhaps twice, in the fluff and if this is the case then perhaps it happens more often than is originally thought.

I think Kharn would annihilate Ghaz in a one on one fight. Lumbering movents versus aggressive precision. At the very least Ghaz is loosing the majority of his limbs.

Gorechild is a huge chainaxe and is an artifact from the Great Crusade. Its teeth come from the jaws of mica-dragons of the death world Luther McIntyre IX, its haft forged from adamantium and its head is a full three spans across

Best weapon description ever. I was hoping the Angron model from FW would reflect the axes being made out of monstrous dragon teeth.