So I had a little altercation with the store manager today at the local GW. The issue being:

While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

Any how the store manager butts in at my comment and starts ranting about how I shouldn't be one to talk as I some times proxy models without arms and my armies all look like crap because I don't paint.

To which i obviously take offense, and I state that yes on RARE occasion i proxy a model armless because i'm in the process of fully intending to get the weapons i want for it and do not wish to glue an undesired weapon on. In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

The manager then rants on about how using a different model is perfectly legal and in the book as 'count as' rule, and that my unpainted models lacking one of their weapons or both are disrespectful to the hobby and considered 'unbuilt models' for the purpose of the game and thus NOT ALLOWABLE at the store.

At this point i'm like 'WTF?' so I point out that for starters the hobby does not include painting as a requirement, I personally suck at painting and have no interest in paintain my stuff myself and have taken into consideration paying someone for commission paint jobs but even if I chose to leave them unpainted he can't tell me I can't play them on those grounds because from the first day I was introduced to the hobby 7 years ago I asked if painting was required, and was told NO, had it been a yes I would've never got into it because i know painting is definetly not my thing. [Just becuase i'm a good runner doesn't mean i have any interest in playing soccer]

So ultimately he tells me this is true that painting is not required but my models still look like crap and it pisses him off, and from now on unless a model is fully built [weapons on] I am not allowed to play it on his tables at the store for this is from today forth a house rule of the shop. To which I point out that i'm NOT the only person that has used or uses models without weapons at the store, my opponent to whom I was giving free heavy destroyer weapons to help him play a less confusing army with less proxy being a prime example, so he can't come try and single me out.

Then he tells me to finish playing my last game at the store.

At that point I snapped and insisted that he give me a good reason why I should be banned from playing at the store because his basis that i should be banned because I don't paint or use models with a weapon I don't want glued on doesn't seem like a good reason if even valid at that.

I've been in the hobby 7 years and the only time i've seen someone get banned at the store has either been for stealing or fighting. So can managers ban someone for ridiculous reasons such as this one? Can they house rule a no armless models on the tables policy, and is it ok to only enforce said house rule on 1 person?

I stayed after the heated argument, and played 2 more games. 1 against another necron player who proxied the Overlords with warscythe + res.orb that come in the Command Barge set, as a regular Lord with Staff of Light and did NOT tell me, to my surprise on turn 2 when the lord shot at me...[which is exactly why i'm against proxying entire models]

And the game after that Dark Eldar player was shooting at me with vehicles that had NO WEAPONS glued on...4 vehicles none of them with a weapon glued on. And again I was not told if they had weapons or what they even were if they did. And not a word from the manager....

So I go out of my way to point out any 'armless' proxies that I field, and i deserve to be banned, yet everyone else does it without even declaring it and Manager turns a blind eye.

Are these grounds for me to file a complaint against the Manager? He's a new Manager (2 years on the job now at the store i've been going for the past 7 years). So i've never had this sort of problem until now, and if these are grounds to file a complaint does anyone know the contact info because this dude really pissed me off today.

Disclaimer: I got through about the fourth paragraph.


Having that been said, it's a privately run business. They can demand anything of you that's not illegal, including your removal. Sounds stupid, as I got far enough to understand there was an offhand comment you made about a proxied model that seems to have started the ordeal. Sounds SO stupid, in fact, that I can't help but blame the victim here and wonder if there's not more to the story. If there's not, maybe he just didn't like your face, or something.

Your best bet is to not waste any more of your money at that store. From previous stories I've read, a written letter to the district office usually attracts attention, and might fix things, or at the very least, result in an uncomfortable phone call for the guy in question.

A better idea still would be to find a different store to offer your custom to, and encourage everyone else you know to go there instead. Personally, I hardly go to my FLGS to paint or play, not for issues with management, but simply because I find the kids usually distracting. I have a table set up in a spare room that I play on. I realize you live in NY, so space is probably limited, but it's a thought.

If you file a complaint, the manager will take it personally. Try to resolve the issue beforehand if you can. Be assertive, tell him calmly that you believe what he is doing is unfair - that if the house rule is to be imposed, it must be enforced universally, if at all. Don't blackmail him either, don't tell him you're going to file the complaint, only do it as a last resort, because once you go down that road, there is no turning back.

Anyone know the contact info for the district office then? So i can have this 'last resort'

Because really trying to tell me i can't field models lacking an arm as a proxy, yet allowing everyone else to do it is a whole new level of douchebagery from a store manager that no one likes.

This is the only GW in my area without needing a to take a 3 hour car drive out of state or to upstate new york.

So I would just like for him to stay in his box and not interfere in my games.

Were you possibly a bit rude to the manager? Just apologise and try to settle the matter with him.

Oh, and glue the bloody arms on your models! Playing with unpainted models is bad enough, playing with unassembled models is just plain ridiculous.

Have a chat man to man with the manager after the dust has settled, probably just bunched up panties.

And magnetize the arm if you have that hard of a time deciding. You can't give people crap for proxying when you're fielding unpainted pieces of models for units.

Yeah like and then I read about a third of this, dude. And then omfg and srsly wtf and yeah. Also, whoever it was rolling with having models without arms, just field Abaddon. It's all good then. Word!

With armless models why not just either magnetise, blu tac or fix with a small amount of super glue until you get your replacement arm that way you wont get the flak any more for it and will look a little better.

Yeah, I agree with the others mate, find a different store and go there instead. You could easily complain and you might even be justified, but if they don't take care of the manager and you have to go back there, what sort of environment would you end up having to game in?

Alternatively, be the bigger man and go and apologise and resolve the issue that way, regardless of whether you are right or wrong, this will end up being a neater way of resolving it for you.

Really I'm not sure why you even would have continued. Why fed his fire? After his first comment you should have just gone "Yea I guess I'm in no position to talk....back to the shooting phase" and moved on. It's that simple, you can defuse many situations by just...moving on. Now everyone has their panties in a tiffy for no good reason.

Hmm I never go to my local GWS because I don't have my license so I can't really way in to this lol. But I do find it interesting that your 4 largest armies are the same as my 4 largest armies ^^

Also, I find it hilarious that the 'proxying' the OP complained about in the first place was using a Necron lord with a staff to represent a Necron lord with a staff.

Zande4 wrote:Hmm I never go to my local GWS because I don't have my license so I can't really way in to this lol. But I do find it interesting that your 4 largest armies are the same as my 4 largest armies ^^

lol interesting indeed, similar amount of poitns in each aswell.

Crimson wrote:Also, I find it hilarious that the 'proxying' the OP complained about in the first place was using a Necron lord with a staff to represent a Necron lord with a staff.

You clearly missed the point. I complained because I saw the guy and thought 'oh he's got the stormlord' and was puzzled then he said 'this is Nemesor' and then i made the comment. The game was already under way and the unit was hidden.

I still don't see how proxying a whole model is 'better' than proxying an arm/weapon

_Lightbringer_ wrote:
Yeah like and then I read about a third of this, dude. And then omfg and srsly wtf and yeah. Also, whoever it was rolling with having models without arms, just field Abaddon. It's all good then. Word!

You. I like you.

But, you can't have Abaddon. We could however discuss a very generously priced timeshare....

The manager is well within his right to refuse you fielding unbuilt/proxied models.

Gaming within a GW store is basically helping to advertise the GW brand. If all the regulars are basically just treating the store like their personal pad and fielding nothing but grey plastic/resin, half-built crap and never put any effort into painting, well, it looks fething horribad from a buisness standpoint.
Very few parents will likely want to drop serious bills for Little Timmy to get into a hobby that looks like nothing more than somewhat more detailed army men they could buy at a dollar store!

We had the same problem at our local store a number of years ago... Very few people actually gave damn about appearences. Week in and week out, it was always the same grey crap crowding the table, some of it only half built. It hurt sales big time. You could see the majority of parents who brought their kids in looking at what was out on the gaming tables, then looking back at the demo table, then looking at the unwashed masses acting rudely while playing their games.
So we made new rules. No more proxies/half-assembled models. "Reasonable" progress had to be made on your models. (ie: at least prime your models within 3-4 weeks of building them, maybe slap a simple 1 colour basecoat on them within the next 2-4 weeks, add a wash later on, try some drybrushing, etc...) No more pretending you really are a Plague Marine! Any swearing and you'd be uncerimoniously booted out the door! Any sexual comments towards me, (I'm a girl - some nerds couldn't handel that fact!), and my 'Brothers' would have free riegn to teach you some proper manners!

Like it/agree with it or not, gaming in a GW store is still a privilage, not your right. If you don't like the Manager's new rules, then either ask for help with parts of the hobby you feel you're not adept at, or else look for a store that doesn't mind you playing with proxies/un-built models.

@OP. stop arguing with managers, spend 4$ on magnets, magnetize the arms and move on.

Proxying a dude with no arms is no less confusing than proxying an entire model to most people. Just because it seems obvious to you that your guy must have a pyscannon, doesn't mean it is to everyone else. Getting onto other people's cases about proxying when you do it yourself is pretty much "the pot calling the kettle black" (I'm from the south, deal with it ) Acting like your proxy is totally fine, and yet ranting and raving when others proxy in a slightly different way will come off as very hypocritical no matter how you slice it. What do you do when guys convert their own hero minis? Do you refuse to play them as well?

From what i gathered from the story, your temper escalated quickly with the manager, probably a bit too much. He may well have imposed his "rediculous" restriction just as a justification to throw you out without saying "you're being a prick". Relax a bit, and try to have a nice calm conversation with the guy to show him you're not a manchild who can't play well with others, and everything should be fine. It's probably just a big deal over nothing, and if you try to reach a reasonable conclusion with the manager, that should be problem solved. We all let our tempers get out of hand at times. Time to be the bigger man and try to resolve things peacefully. If it doesn't work out, oh well, looks like you won't be playing there anymore.

And I guess bluetac some arms on the guys at least, so you don't have to worry about a repeat of this incident. Wouldn't hurt.

This seems very fishy. I realize I'm new to the game and all, but this story doesn't add up.

Your version: You complained that someone was proxying. Store manager comes over, attacks you out of the blue for it, then bans you from the store. You stay and play 2 more games afterwards.

What likely happened: The manager pointed out the irony of your complaints, since you're obviously not bothering to glue arms onto models so that you can PROXY them as whatever you want. And not painting models so you can proxy your SMs as whatever Chapter you like. You blew it up into a confrontation because you got caught and felt silly. The manager told you that you're not welcome back, but gave you plenty of time and opportunity to apologize and set things right. You opted to play 2 more games, then come on Dakka and try to figure out how to file a complaint.

Iron Dragon wrote:
This seems very fishy. I realize I'm new to the game and all, but this story doesn't add up.

Your version: You complained that someone was proxying. Store manager comes over, attacks you out of the blue for it, then bans you from the store. You stay and play 2 more games afterwards.

What likely happened: The manager pointed out the irony of your complaints, since you're obviously not bothering to glue arms onto models so that you can PROXY them as whatever you want. And not painting models so you can proxy your SMs as whatever Chapter you like. You blew it up into a confrontation because you got caught and felt silly. The manager told you that you're not welcome back, but gave you plenty of time and opportunity to apologize and set things right. You opted to play 2 more games, then come on Dakka and try to figure out how to file a complaint.

I'm liking this explanation.

Basically they can refuse service to anyone with a few exceptions. They can not refuse service because of race, color, religion, or national origin.

Title II, “Injunctive Relief against Discrimination in Places of Public Accommodation,” section 201 states,

(A) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

Experiment 626 wrote:
The manager is well within his right to refuse you fielding unbuilt/proxied models.

Gaming within a GW store is basically helping to advertise the GW brand. If all the regulars are basically just treating the store like their personal pad and fielding nothing but grey plastic/resin, half-built crap and never put any effort into painting, well, it looks fething horribad from a buisness standpoint.
Very few parents will likely want to drop serious bills for Little Timmy to get into a hobby that looks like nothing more than somewhat more detailed army men they could buy at a dollar store!

We had the same problem at our local store a number of years ago... Very few people actually gave damn about appearences. Week in and week out, it was always the same grey crap crowding the table, some of it only half built. It hurt sales big time. You could see the majority of parents who brought their kids in looking at what was out on the gaming tables, then looking back at the demo table, then looking at the unwashed masses acting rudely while playing their games.
So we made new rules. No more proxies/half-assembled models. "Reasonable" progress had to be made on your models. (ie: at least prime your models within 3-4 weeks of building them, maybe slap a simple 1 colour basecoat on them within the next 2-4 weeks, add a wash later on, try some drybrushing, etc...) No more pretending you really are a Plague Marine! Any swearing and you'd be uncerimoniously booted out the door! Any sexual comments towards me, (I'm a girl - some nerds couldn't handel that fact!), and my 'Brothers' would have free riegn to teach you some proper manners!

Like it/agree with it or not, gaming in a GW store is still a privilage, not your right. If you don't like the Manager's new rules, then either ask for help with parts of the hobby you feel you're not adept at, or else look for a store that doesn't mind you playing with proxies/un-built models.

If this were a rule enforced on everyone as it seems to be the case at YOUR store then it would be a non-issue.

The problem is that it is not a rule, it's done by several people and i'm the only one called out for it where as im the only one actually kind enough to inform opponents of proxies used, of which i use very few. I will admit any day that i blantantly don't paint its not my thing, guilty as charged but the proxy thing is a once in a blue moon thing on bits i havent received or waiting on order or something that is usually temporary and not rampant in any of my armies.

But I gotta love how some people on here get the story straight and yet make a concerted effort to twist the facts given. A dude posted his own version of what happened without actually being there smh

It's almost funny that some can think i can have enough 'grace' to post up my own faults in the story and yet be TOTALLY lying about everything else that was 'not' fault of my own. Yeah let's go with that version! Everything you say can and will be used against you, specially if it sounds like it shoudlnt!


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Regardless i'm not here to look for people that agree with me, I strongly feel discriminated against and wanted to ask from those that have been in the hobby longer than me if they know how to file complaints or if it's possible to be banned from a store for the above reason.

In the 7 years ive been going to that same store there's been 3 diff managers, and only 2 reasons ive ever seen/heard someone kicked out the store for has been stealing and fist fighting.

Bringing proxies/unpainted models seems rather ridiculous as justification.

You can be banned from any store if the store manager can show a reasonable cause for banning you if you take issue with it; I'd be interested in hearing the manager's view of this particular altercation (always best to hear both sides before passing judgement either way), but I don't know that he's got a reasonable cause in this case from what you've said.

I don't know if GW's got an official channel for filing complaints about staff, but start by calling or emailing the customer service people; they're very good at making sure people leave satisfied.

 Akaiyou wrote:
Regardless i'm not here to look for people that agree with me, I strongly feel discriminated against and wanted to ask from those that have been in the hobby longer than me if they know how to file complaints or if it's possible to be banned from a store for the above reason.

In the 7 years ive been going to that same store there's been 3 diff managers, and only 2 reasons ive ever seen/heard someone kicked out the store for has been stealing and fist fighting.

Bringing proxies/unpainted models seems rather ridiculous as justification.

As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

That said, try contacting the manager, or just go into the store to talk to him. That may clear everything up.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You can be banned from any store if the store manager can show a reasonable cause for banning you.

The manager does not even need reasonable cause. they can ban you for no reason.

I have a hard time buying the OP. Did he bust your balls about playing unpainted armless minis? Yes. Did you play with unpainted / armless minis? Yes. Whats the problem?

If you have a problem with other people proxying minis, why dont you ask to look at your opponent's army list before a game? If you're unsure as to what a model is or what it's supposed to be using, you're allowed to ask. As far as army list, composition and wargear is concerned, its all meant to be very transparent.

Op depends how long have your guys been armless? If its like a week ok if longer then you should really get on that.

New rules were implimented at my store as in no un build models and unprimed for a week at most. the games look better. Also small games mean you need less stuff so less to build and paint.

OP prime and basecoat your models atleast.

It does suck that you didnt know about the necron dude but I'm sure you cn read so you could have asked for his list combined with common sense to figure it out.

As an addendum to what I posted earlier: I felt guilty and apologized because I recently played in a tournament where I had one of my HQs that I speed-painted the night before not have a fully painted base that matched the rest of the army.

My doubles team took third place, and still I felt undeserving of the position.

my problem is not so much models proxied from other armies. For example a friend proxies a sphinx from fantasy as a daemon prince. That's an obvious proxy

What bothers me is when people proxy a rhino that is perfectly viable in a space marine list and then it turns out that it's not a rhino it's a land speeder..or a predator/razorback with no apparent alteration to indicate that it is such.

That's the type of thing im against.

I have played armless models mainly terminators with thunderhammer n storm shields because iw as working on getting the bits which i got within the month i'm not known as the guy with all the armless/weaponless models in fact I try to avoid proxy as much as possible while allowing plenty of it if i proxy something it's somethign im working towards getting as soon as i can.

The point is this wasn't problem until yesterday. And my armies while vastly unpainted given that i own 50,000+ pts of 40k stuff does have stuff painted (though not by me) I do try to get other people to paint for me or get em off ebay painted in bundles or what not.

But once more I'm not looking to defend my position i know I proxy once in a while before glueing an arm in or if i don't have the arm/weapon yet and I know for sure that I don't enjoy painting and im in the hobby for the 'game' these are things i clearly admitted to and do not deny. My beef is that this wasnt a rule and i was singled out and persecuted for it out of the damn blue.

While i dont paint i have been making an effort to get people to paint for me on commission so yes i didn't understand what the beef was out of the blue

Man, I usually just wave my hands and say "Dude its all good" when someone starts to go over what they have in their lists pre-game with me.... First of all, I don't really know any codices that I dont play, so anything I hear just slides out my head via the other ear anyway. Second, I couldn't give less feths what they have, The game will be fun depending on the person moving the models, not what fictitious 'hero' they represent.

Getting gak-pissed about failing to have asked what models your opponent is using sounds dickish to me (at least when it seems to matter so much to you). Make asking part of your pre-game ritual from now on. You seem to owe a few of the players from the store an apology, manager included.

You're TFG.

It's their store, they can do whatever they like.

Even if you are in the right, I'd apologise. If that shop is the only way to get games in, then do whatever.

Just attach the arms onto models before you play there!

I'm not sure why its so hard to put arms on your guys... I have never heard of people leaving arms off coz they cant decide what weapon they have...

davou wrote:
Man, I usually just wave my hands and say "Dude its all good" when someone starts to go over what they have in their lists pre-game with me.... First of all, I don't really know any codices that I dont play, so anything I hear just slides out my head via the other ear anyway. Second, I couldn't give less feths what they have, The game will be fun depending on the person moving the models, not what fictitious 'hero' they represent.

Getting gak-pissed about failing to have asked what models your opponent is using sounds dickish to me (at least when it seems to matter so much to you). Make asking part of your pre-game ritual from now on. You seem to owe a few of the players from the store an apology, manager included.

You're TFG.

That you spend heavy money to mindlessly move your models on the table doesn't mean that there are no people who actualy care for the actual game aspect. If you actualy try too think a bit and outsmart your oponent then obviously you want to know what he's able to do.

The burden of informing about using proxies is on the guy using them. The OP could have exaggerated or be wrong entirely but who sounds really dickish is you imo with forcing your mindless overly laid-back attitude on others.

-facepalm-

anyway thanks to those that actually proved useful providing the information requested, I'll leave the rest to theorize as they like


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

davou wrote:
Man, I usually just wave my hands and say "Dude its all good" when someone starts to go over what they have in their lists pre-game with me.... First of all, I don't really know any codices that I dont play, so anything I hear just slides out my head via the other ear anyway. Second, I couldn't give less feths what they have, The game will be fun depending on the person moving the models, not what fictitious 'hero' they represent.

Getting gak-pissed about failing to have asked what models your opponent is using sounds dickish to me (at least when it seems to matter so much to you). Make asking part of your pre-game ritual from now on. You seem to owe a few of the players from the store an apology, manager included.

You're TFG.

That you spend heavy money to mindlessly move your models on the table doesn't mean that there are no people who actualy care for the actual game aspect. If you actualy try too think a bit and outsmart your oponent then obviously you want to know what he's able to do.

The burden of informing about using proxies is on the guy using them. The OP could have exaggerated or be wrong entirely but who sounds really dickish is you imo with forcing your mindless overly laid-back attitude on others.

My thoughts exactly

To all those saying something along the lines of 'if you don't know what weapon, just magnetize or glue one on for the time being', the OP said that he knows what weaponhe wanted, he just didn't have the parts.

Now then, it does seem you were being a bit like a hypocrit, but at LEAST (if you are telling the truth) did tell your opponents what they were.

Now, the manager making a house rule about no proxies/unpainted models/unbuilt models, while a pain and unfair, does have to effect anyone, so him saying that you can't play because of that but letting everyone else play is definately not fair.

Now, are you really banned or were you kicked out?

If you were kicked, then just undercoat/basecoar your models, and if you are waiting for pieces, don't use that model. Then he has no reason to not let you play.

If you were banned, try and find a non-GW FLGS near you, if none then maybe try and find some players in your area (Dakka has a 'find a game' section, just post a topic in there saying you're looking for people to play against but can't go to the store)

Either way, you should appoligise, be the bigger person!

As said, complaining is a last resort.

You got 3900 Points of Knights and no Terminator wit a psycanon?


And you have:

1. Tyranids - 13,900 pts
2. Black Legion - 6,300 pts
3. Orks - 5,800 pts
4. Necrons - 4,000 pts
5. Grey Knights - 3,900 pts
6. Ultramarines - 3,800 pts
7. Eldar - 2,600 pts
8. Black Templar - 2,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 2,300 pts
10. Dark Angels - 2,100 pts

unpainted?

i have 4,000 pts of nids painted (had someoen else do it for me)

currently i own over 50,000 pts of stuff clearly most of it unpainted because as mentinoed i just dont enjoy any part of painting.

The house rule started during the discussion he basically declared it a house rule. And didn't enforce it on anyone except me because people were playing missing weapons on their stuff the same as I was...yet no one else got addresed.

Friend right infront of me had his whole army unpainted as well...no word to him either.

Hmmm...what seems off with this picture?

While most of my stuff is infact unptained and i do not deny the facts, I stated them myself i do have some stuff painted (not by myself) and the rest of the stuff waiting inline for commission work whenever the money becomes available.

So I don't understand if it was the way I wrote it but the whole me being 'hypocritical' I just don't see it.

I am known for being a strong adherer to the rules often being asked by other players about rules to the game and when i don't know i come here to ask..

I most definetly 100% of the time that i proxy anything let my opponent know during deployment or before game starts. Because the rule is that identifying proxies is the burden of the person doing the proxy.

So what upsets me is when I play someone fielding a rhino that takes off as a land speeder midgame. I see a rhino, i strategize for a rhino, set up to counter a rhino and get hammered by a land speeder.

Similarly if I see an overlord with a warscythe and I consciously avoid getting to close to his unit with my marines because I dont want to be mindshackled and then slapped with S7 AP2 attacks in melee only to find out he has a staff of light and can shoot me instead without any mention of this.

That's the sort of thing I call out and say 'come on man...you serious?'

In the case of Stormlord/Nemesor i've played my friend several times...the stormlord USED to be a stormlord, he played 1 game proxying him as nemesor before...in this game I saw the stormlord and thought 'hey stormlord' and then discovered turn 1 oh wat the heck that's suppsoed to be Nemesor again? And thus the comment about the proxying the full model being confusing.

10 games he's the storm lord
last 2 games he is Nemesor, first time it was pointed out that it would be used as a proxy, second time it was an easter egg. Perhaps my friend expected me to make a connection due to the last game, but in my last game as a 1 off proxy you know to 'try it out' there was no indication of a continued proxy

store manger took me to one side as i always talk about
other makes/ebay dakka....not allowed...but wait the new WD
refers to plasticard and chicken wire which GW dont sell!!!!

Clearly we'll be seeing more escaped chickens in the future then.

As already stated, you can be banned for any reason that wouldn't be classified as discrimination. and the customer isn't always right.

Personally speaking, i dislike playing against tinboyz, because it looks, well, icky. Proxies i can accept, hell, just this week i was allowed to proxy Bjorn the fell handed as a rifleman dread since i didn't want to buy the bits from FW until i'd played with them at least a couple of times, and my opponents were more than happy with that, but on the off chance it would have been an issue, i prepared 2 lists, 1 with, and 1 without rifleman dreads.
Generally however, the rule is WYSIWYG, so its easy to tell at a glance what the units are equipped with. it is a royal pain to have to take notes on what your opponent has, and far easier for all involved to do without that unit/upgrade/vehicle until you have it yourself.
I have a personal rule not to play with a unit in my army that isn't, at the very least, basecoated with 3 colours (necrons being the exception) This generally means the games i play are smaller than my collection would otherwise allow, i have the equivalent of a C:SM battle company, but only about 1/3 of it is painted right now

I also understand that some people simply do not like painting, and thats fine and dandy, BUT, painting even to a basic standard is extremely easy, and takes next to no time. a friend of mine hates painting, so he just uses army painter sprays and washes. he painted his entire 2500 point Grey knight army in an afternoon. silver basecoat, some gold on the details, wash, and base. i think he managed most of it while watching a single DVD. they wont win any painting awards, but they look far and away better than a collection of plastic and metal figures on a battlefield, and with some slight variations in colour schemes you can easily tell units apart. He is far and away the fastest speedpainter i know, all to avoid that 'boring painting nonsense'.

To the OP: I can't really comment on the argument and banning, but I'm curious if you guys give each other army lists to read over before the game. In my gaming group, we are a bunch of poor bastards, or have too many other obligations to spend a ton on GW, or just like to mess with other armies from our core armies from time to time, so several proxy like mad. I'm talking construction paper cutouts for vehicles, tupperware for tanks, the whole nine yards. I think some people on here would have an aneurism if they saw some of our games We keep it straight by looking over the lists before the games and explaining what is what as we deploy, and asking questions if there is any grey area.

The point is, I would recommend always reading the other guy's list before the game if for no other reason than to know if the models on the table don't jive with what's shown on paper. Especially in your case as some people that run only one or two armies may not really be familiar with anything else, but with the large scope of your collection, you should be able to look at 90% of the lists out there and know pretty much what everything is and what it does.

On a side note, I think I tend to be in the minority who would rather look at a grey/black/white horde than a badly painted army (which is subjective of course). This is why it takes me so long to paint my stuff (that and everybody else wants me to paint their stuff too). I don't paint fantastic (sure as hell not going to win any major painting comps anytime soon), but I put enough time and effort into it that it looks pretty good on the table...but I'd rather have that bare grey plastic model on the table than slap a sloppy mess of paint on it to appease those offended by a naked model

The manager has the right to not allow anyone who he deems disruptive or rude in the store. Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you make it an official complaint.

On the topic of proxying this has devolved into: you're a hypocrite, suck it up.

 Griddlelol wrote:
The manager has the right to not allow anyone who he deems disruptive or rude in the store. Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you make it an official complaint.

On the topic of proxying this has devolved into: you're a hypocrite, suck it up.

This. The story doesn't add up to me. Also the whole "I've got enough money to have several thousand pts of models, but I can't afford/be troubled enough get a couple sets of arms"

Good riddance , seven years and you still can't paint your models? Don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out!

 Necroshea wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
The manager has the right to not allow anyone who he deems disruptive or rude in the store. Sorry, but you don't have a leg to stand on if you make it an official complaint.

On the topic of proxying this has devolved into: you're a hypocrite, suck it up.

This. The story doesn't add up to me. Also the whole "I've got enough money to have several thousand pts of models, but I can't afford/be troubled enough get a couple sets of arms"

He could be waiting for them to appear in the mail.

Private businesses have full authority to ban customers or refuse them services for any reason, aside from racial/sexual/religious bias. So, regardless of his behavior in this circumstance, he was fully within his rights. I honestly think he banned you for not showing him any respect. Seems he came over to you, told you to stop complaining, and then you bitched at him. Giving someone lip is the easiest way to get your ass thrown out. Sometimes you'v gotta be the better man.

 Akaiyou wrote:

While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

...

In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

I'm sorry, remembering a single model is 'X' is harder than remembering a model missing an arm is carrying 'Y'? I think the reason you had a negative reaction from the store owner had a lot more to do with your attitude than any specific actions you described in your story.

Call and complain to corporate. Don't waste your time in GW's stores. There is a reason GW can't keep hem in business. Find a nice local hobby shop and support them. No holier than thou neckbeards in my local scene.

He's probably not getting any love from his wife, you should forgive him and give him a hug and tell him that you're sorry and tell him you just want to play games

Yeah, good idea. Try to get him fired from his job, because you showed poor manners and made a scene in the store he manages.

I can't believe anyone in this thread would agree with the OP. There's so much blatantly left out of this story, and it's obvious. A manager wouldn't ban someone from their store on a whim. There's way more to this than is being said here.

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

Nerd world problems?

maybe im missing something, but i agree that if you dont want to paint or whatever, and want to proxy an unarmed model thats fine - but if you are fielding an army like that, dont criticise other people for their issues!

either you play wysiwyg, in which case you should both field wysiwyg painted models or you play casual in which case unpainted and proxied models are fine.

you cant be casual yourself yet criticise others for their own casual aspect. its just not cricket.
lifes too short to worry about opponents models. who cares

my brother fielded a rizla multipack box against me 3 games in a row acting as a thunderfire cannon.
i refuse to let him buy the actual model now as we've renamed the codex entry the "rizla cannon" so i'd count a real thunderfire cannon as a proxied rizla cannon now

not sure if thats relevent but thought id say it anyway

regarding being banned from the store, assuming we arent just hearing one side of the story here and there werent other factors not mentioned, i think a store ban was a bit extreme and agree with the sentiments of buying him a beer and challenging him to a friendly game to make up

hakuna matata my friend

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order...
You cannot be "banned" from a store in America.

Yes they can ban you from a store as it is private property.

A private business does not have to sell its wares to everyone that wants them. They can refuse service to anyone as long as it is not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin.

 DeffDred wrote:
Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

If you show up, and they do not want you there, you are trespassing, and they can have you arrested.

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

Service may be refused provided said refusal is not in anyway illegal (such as discrimination due to race, age, gender or sexuality).

In addition a restraining order would not be issued if it would affect an employee's ability to work.
The fact that attendance in the shop as a customer is completely voluntary means that any issues you may have that occur only within the shop can be avoided by simply not setting foot in said shop.

Also, the manager gave the OP plenty of time, he was well within his rights to remove the OP from the premises immediately but did not. Instead he allowed the OP to finish the game he was playing, have TWO further games and then allowed him to depart under his own terms. It hardly rings true that this was a malicious and directed attack by a store manager, hell from the moment he stated the OP was banned he was within his legal rights to phone the police and have the OP removed on grounds of trespass. Purchase of an item within a store does not prohibit the store from removing you otherwise vandals would buy cheap candy then destroy the store.

 Akaiyou wrote:
my problem is not so much models proxied from other armies. For example a friend proxies a sphinx from fantasy as a daemon prince. That's an obvious proxy

No, that's "counts as". Something utterly different.

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the gffuy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

Needless to say, Deffdred is not a lawyer, and doesn't have a single clue what he's talking about. You can try doing any of the dumb gak he's suggested, but I'd suggest making sure you wait until the local cops are having a slow day and need something to laugh about.

Simply apologize, even if you're in the right.

Suck up your pride and apologise for the way you acted. Tell him you're very sorry and it won't happen again, that you love this hobby and would be grateful to be allowed to continue to play in his store.

You don't have to mean it, just be convincing and humble. You said this is your only nearby store, is it worth losing games for the sake of your pride?

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining ord

In a private business they can ask you to leave at any time and you must comply. If you don't it's called "criminal tresspass" and they can call the police to have you removed.
Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200$
Enjoy your criminal record at that point.

It sounds like the OP smarted off to the manager and got a reaction. My advice would be to either find another store to play in or if playing there is THAT important, then contact the manager's direct supervisor and get a second opinion...but I would nto get too hopeful about that option. If he's a decent employee and there is not a track record of customer complaints against him he'll probabaly support his staff member over a single whiney customer.

Oh, and paint your freeking models. A can of Army Painter colored spray primer and a bottle or can of dip is quite cheap and you can finish a whole army to a two color bare minimum standard in an evening. There really is no excuse to have totally unpainted models on the table more than once.

All I can think of reading this thread is this:




I remember a time when GW stores around me had a rule that your models had to minimally be primed in order to play them.

 Bookwrack wrote:
Needless to say, Deffdred is not a lawyer, and doesn't have a single clue what he's talking about.

You are correct, sir!

I love an angry rant.

Chuck_Traynor wrote:

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining ord

In a private business they can ask you to leave at any time and you must comply. If you don't it's called "criminal tresspass" and they can call the police to have you removed.
Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200$
Enjoy your criminal record at that point.

What'd probably happen the first time is spending time sitting in the back of the squad car while the cops talk it out with the manager, and then them telling you not to go into the store again or the manager will press charges next time.

The whole bit about restraining orders was just pants on head stupid, although yeah, a lot of people are dumb enough to think that you can use on like that. Working around people who work in family law, you get to here all sorts of stories, like a woman who got a restraining order against her husband, and then tried to call the cops that he was violating it when she went to where he worked to harass him, or followed him to the store, and ended up with her getting a restraining order with an even longer minimum distance slapped on her.

What'd probably happen the first time is spending time sitting in the back of the squad car while the cops talk it out with the manager, and then them telling you not to go into the store again or the manager will press charges next time.

Right, that's what they'd probably do if the person who was silly enough to commit criminal trespass played it cool when the cops got there and complied with THEIR instructions to leave the premises. Now if the tresspasser got mouthy with THEM, refused their orders, or otherwise showed bad judgement, then they are probably going to jail.

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

honestly, this is the reason why the rest of the world looks at america and goes 'wth...', this attitude of 'i can do what i want, and you cant stop me, stfu'

Dragonzord wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

honestly, this is the reason why the rest of the world looks at america and goes 'wth...', this attitude of 'i can do what i want, and you cant stop me, stfu'

DeffDred is lying; that isn't true in the slightest. Don't be so prejudiced dude. Not cool, not cool.

Dragonzord wrote:

honestly, this is the reason why the rest of the world looks at america and goes 'wth...', this attitude of 'i can do what i want, and you cant stop me, stfu'

Y U H8 AMERICA?

Dragonzord wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


As long as it was not an issue of race, color, religion, or national origin, they have the right to refuse service to anyone. (Color in this case means skin color, and not the color of paint you used on your army).

This sounds like it was not any of the afforementioned reasons, so the manager was within his rights of service refusal.

Not without a restrainging order. By spending money at the GW store you are exercising your right of free speech. You do not have the right to refuse service in America as long as the transaction is legal.

(No sale of alcohol, spray paint, cigarettes, porn to minors ect).

You cannot be "banned" from a store in America. Walmart can "ban" you but they do so through the proper legal means. They even post a picture of you in all the stores in your area (also illegal).

Walk right back into that GW and buy a unit and start playing. If they give you crap... call the cops. Say the guy is harassing you and you want a restraining order.

You don't have to have any reason to get one. They hand them out like candy. Now you can play there but the D-bag can't show up to work while you're there.

So he'll either have to change his scedual around yours, or be fired for causing the problem in the first place.

honestly, this is the reason why the rest of the world looks at america and goes 'wth...', this attitude of 'i can do what i want, and you cant stop me, stfu'

Yes, let's badmouth an entire country because certain people act a certain way. Way to profile an entire nation.

Ease up, ease up, he's an Aussie, he's probably drunk...we all are. Its the only thing which lets us live in a continent full of things that want us dead and can manage that easily.

But seriously, lets keep this on topic instead of lynching the poor guy. We don't want no locksies...

It's considered private property, I love customers who think they have a devine right to be in there - the truth is, they don't have to serve you, they don't have to let you in, as long as they're not discriminating by race/gender etc

and sort your models out, who cares if you suck at painting, just spray them whatever colour you intend them to be, magnetise the arms, and that's it.

I hate playing against people who just field plastic, it's like they don't give a crap about the game. Unless it's a new release (like the Chaos stuff)

I'd sort it out with the manager though, definitely, whether you were right or wrong, he's the one who has the power to let you in or not

Doesn't even have to be the Manager actually who gets you banned...

I got a guy banned from our store because he thought it would be funny to come in on Mega Battle Sunday, (the one day we're packed with 'oodles of kids), while wearing a t-shirt laced with profanity & sexual jokes.

I didn't give a crap that he was ready to drop $200 on product. He was being an hat and trying to make sure everyone could see his highly offensive shirt while remarking about how kids were ruining the game.
I told him if he wanted to purchase the product, he first had to exit the mall and either turn his shirt inside out or change it. He then tried to cause a scene and went on and on about how he was going to call HQ, that he had 'connections' there and he'd ensure i'd get fired and banned from every GW store in Canada.

I just told him to leave because he was being highly offensive and his attire was completely inapropritate for our store which is ment to cater to everyone. He got huffy and basically gave me the attitude of, "yah, try and kick me out b !"

I then called Security and enjoyed the show!

Dude was banned from every store in Ontario by HQ when we called and told them about the incident.

I agree it's within their rights to ban you, but still this rings like a case of poor salesmanship to me. If painting is not your strong, why didn't he offer to give you a couple of classes to teach you the basics? It's part of the GW stores' service, AFAIK.

You can be banned for being a thief or being agressive, a manager has the right to not allow entry or service (although they have to be aware of discrimation laws).

As to the managers action, if this was an official GW store I would send a compliant letter (not email, an actual letter) and also put a message on their facebook page about his conduct as it has gone against GW policy (he is also mixing up counts as and proxy).

 BluntmanDC wrote:
You can be banned for being a thief or being agressive, a manager has the right to not allow entry or service (although they have to be aware of discrimation laws).

As to the managers action, if this was an official GW store I would send a compliant letter (not email, an actual letter) and also put a message on their facebook page about his conduct as it has gone against GW policy (he is also mixing up counts as and proxy).

You can be banned for any reason as long as it is not discrimination the manager has the right to refuse service. The best the OP can do is talk to the manager in question or calmly contact GW and request they look into the matter.

However there is something missing from the original post. As I mentioned previously the manager showed no malice, whilst he banned the OP he still allowed him to play THREE games (the one against his Necron friend and two further games after being told he was banned) and allowed him to leave under his own terms ie. he wasn't escorted out by a member of staff. This doesn't sound like a manager who would ban someone based on them having armless models.

They can and I take his side. If you aren't even gonna be bothered to paint them then don't bitch at other people for not modeling right

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
I agree it's within their rights to ban you, but still this rings like a case of poor salesmanship to me. If painting is not your strong, why didn't he offer to give you a couple of classes to teach you the basics? It's part of the GW stores' service, AFAIK.

It totally depends on the [OP] though, would you offer painting advice to a customer who annoys you?

We don't know the full story, it is possible that the GW store monkey could've been a complete douche, but so could the [OP]

The only surefire way is either apologise to the manager, and get it all sorted that way, or do the dickish thing and go over his head to Games Workshop but then you're open to the possibility that he could unleash the ban hammer and ban you for good


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
They can and I take his side. If you aren't even gonna be bothered to paint them then don't bitch at other people for not modeling right

and this I wholly agree with!

It's a bit weird for someone to have so many points across tons of armies to not just spray them the basic colour they're intended to be.

1. Yes, a store manager can ban you from his store.

2. I wouldn't play the OP in this thread.

3. I would have banned you for whining.

4. I would have banned you again for being a hypocrite.

So the OP didn't get his way and now he is wanting to throw a temper tantrum and get the manager fired.

Take a step back realize its only a game, that you don't always have to be right, be a man and go sort it out with the manager.

I miss the good old days when GW stores (and gaming stores in general) didn't allow unpainted models on their tables.

*edit* Didn't realize there were other pages more than page one. I see what I said others have said it and I missed it all.*

After reading all you said, my first impression is that you are a cry baby and the manager got upset that a cry baybe is doing something wrong when YOU are exactly doing the same thing.

I know you are not a cry baby, but maybe the manager was having a bad day and that is all he saw. He didn't get all the details just her the "dude stop proxying..." and then he saw you do the same thing and that set him off when he was having a bad day.

I agree just go up to him and apologize. Your opponent didn't do anything wrong. Maybe you were a bit too aggresive and don't realize it. That is why it's all blown out of proportion.

Also you are TFG just because you had to tell someone to stop proxying. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO TELL ANYONE HOW TO PLAY THE HOBBY. I find it funny you say the person has to stop proxying but yet you REFUSE to paint. Sort of hypocritcal no?

Also you said something about "that is why I don't like people proxying." My question there is, why didn't you know what your opponents army list was before the game. When ever anyone is proxing that should be noted at the begining before the game even starts.

I believe both parties are at fault. The manager was in the wrong in saying you have to have painted minis or what ever it was about "unfinished minis". If other people had this, then he is signaling it out. That was wrong from him. I find it hard to believe someone who refueses to paint and then gets upset at others for proxying. I am sure you were a bit hyper/rude to the manager and things got blown up.

As others said, man up, go to the store, say you were in the wrong and apologize like a man.

Lots of Little Napoleons in this thread. Half the people in here should never have authority over anyone

Our 2 locals stores have requirements to play on their tables. They do allow counts as, however the model must be build and on the base it was supplied with. (other changes must be approved by management)

One of the 2 stores requires you to have your army fully painted.

As these are both private run stores, and allowing us free table space at any point during the week is cool I'm ok with this.

Alot of tournies I've gone to are a 3 color minimum anyways. So to me that's how the game is also done.

Go to another sotre buy some white primer.

Spray all you models white.

Proceed to paint them ALL the brightest pink on earth.

Paint the bases green and guns black. This is the usual 3 colours required basics met.

apologize to the manager even if you dont mean it.

Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute [Mod edit] looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

 Milisim wrote:
Go to another sotre buy some white primer.

Spray all you models white.

Proceed to paint them ALL the brightest pink on earth.

Paint the bases green and guns black. This is the usual 3 colours required basics met.

apologize to the manager even if you dont mean it.

Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute gayest looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

Going in my signature

evilsponge wrote:
Lots of Little Napoleons in this thread. Half the people in here should never have authority over anyone

Sigged

 Milisim wrote:
Go to another sotre buy some white primer.

Spray all you models white.

Proceed to paint them ALL the brightest pink on earth.

Paint the bases green and guns black. This is the usual 3 colours required basics met.

apologize to the manager even if you dont mean it.

Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute gayest looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

Who's actually going to be the loser in this scenario? The manager who doesn't care what color the army is painted as, or the guy who just painted 10,000 points of minis horrible neon colors?

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Milisim wrote:
Go to another sotre buy some white primer.

Spray all you models white.

Proceed to paint them ALL the brightest pink on earth.

Paint the bases green and guns black. This is the usual 3 colours required basics met.

apologize to the manager even if you dont mean it.

Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute gayest looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

Who's actually going to be the loser in this scenario? The manager who doesn't care what color the army is painted as, or the guy who just painted 10,000 points of minis horrible neon colors?

Who says there's going to be a loser? OP thinks he's awesome because he's beaten the manager, the manager thinks he's awesome because he forced a kid to make a 'flamboyant' army, who's weirdly proud of it

 Milisim wrote:


Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute gayest looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

Don't use gay like that.

Say lame instead.

So you suggest he paint Noise Marines?

 kronk wrote:

 Milisim wrote:


Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute gayest looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

Don't use gay like that.

Say lame instead.

"Flamboyant" might be a better term.

 Akaiyou wrote:
So I had a little altercation with the store manager today at the local GW. The issue being:

And this is how far I initially bothered to read.

Yes, of course you can be banned from a GW store.

The reason doesn't have to be fair, sensible or even remotely logical. Any store owner can, out of hand-without explaining themselves-absent any seemingly good reasoning, deny you the right to frequent said store.
To be able to visit a GW store is not a right. It is a privilege....and such a privilege can be lost.

 kronk wrote:

 Milisim wrote:


Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute gayest looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

Don't use gay like that.

Say lame instead.

No. Its not lame, its gay. Well its lame as well but its also gay. Trust me I know gay guys and any one of them would take one look at that army and call it "sewwww fabu"

@ All: Please recall that use of gay a pejorative term is not allowed on Dakka Dakka. Thanks.

As pejorative I understand, but if its a legitimately gay thing then it should be allowed. People are to sensitive to it now, the word isn't evil if you use it right

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
As pejorative I understand, but if its a legitimately gay thing then it should be allowed. People are to sensitive to it now, the word isn't evil if you use it right

The problem is now that most people don't know how yo use some words in the correct manner, and as a result their first reaction is to call it wrong/ bad.

A recent study found that the most likely "grouping" of people to take offence at racist/ homophobic terms were middle-class straight white males; it also suggest this was because they felt it was their "duty" to stand up for others in a "minority".

Think about that for a moment.

Okay, thanks everyone, let's get back on-topic.

GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

GW defines COUNTS AS: The 'Counts As' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older or scratch built models that do not have rules of their own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choices within our rule books; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force.

----

Counts-as only works for models that aren't valid, playable models already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP, I can understand your point in being frustrated in the first place. If your guy is missing arms, he obviously has something, and your opponent can ask if he can't remember. Also, you told him up front. Meanwhile you look at his dudes and they are totally valid models, and he doesn't tell you otherwise, but TA DUH its something else.

Either way, proxying something to try it out is common. Playing game after game and just renaming a model to use another set of rules over and over without having to buy the right models is not the same thing,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, the manger is within his LEGAL rights to ban anyone, so long as its not based on blah blah blah.

That doesn't mean it is within the GW company policy, or that it's right. Obviously their management will want to hear his side too, if you go that route, but it's usually easier to try and make amends one on one and see if he can't understand why you were upset with his 'change' to store policy, and maybe you can try and understand where he was coming from, wherever that might have been.

 Milisim wrote:
Go to another sotre buy some white primer.

Spray all you models white.

Proceed to paint them ALL the brightest pink on earth.

Paint the bases green and guns black. This is the usual 3 colours required basics met.

apologize to the manager even if you dont mean it.

Continue to play at GW and know that everytime you play you piss this guy off even more by having the absloute [Mod edit] looking army on earth and there is nothing he can do about it.

Make sure you are ultra nice to him and always have a big lame smile on your face.... he will likely rage quit hahaha =]

And even after all of that, the store manager can still deny entry to the store, because he doesn't need a reason to deny entry to his own store as long as he's not being discriminatory.

Am I the only one that totally wants the manager to read this post and permaban him? Apologies, OP, as this may sound rude, but it sounds like you think of yourself as your store's "grizzled veteran" and are insulted that the new manager had the gall to tell you that you're being contradictory.

Dakka isn't here to help you settle your differences with your arch-rival, it's basic human interaction. You both upset eachother. Man up and apologize. Or hit the guy. Your call. (I suggest the former.)

 spycer wrote:
GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

I though GW removed the wysiwyg rule in this new edition?

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 spycer wrote:
GW defines WYSIWYG: An important principle of our events is "what you see is what you get" or WYSIWYG (pronounced "wizzywig") for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'counts as' rule (see below), then miniatures are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model. It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.

I though GW removed the wysiwyg rule in this new edition?

Still can't show me a bolter and then use it as a melta.

That I agree with, but his model had no weapons modeled? So surely it would have the equiptment he gave them?

My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

I know. I also seen another guy who didnt get banned, but got warned/told off for pulling a rulebook off the shelf, pretending it was his, proceeding to play a game using it for reference, and "forgetting" to put it down when walking out of the store..

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

I don't think its much like that. Some people own the books and just want to be able to jump to what they need more quickly. Its practical and pragmatic if you own the books and unethical if you don't.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

That guy must have been fething slowed, why would you even THINK of doing that? It's like going to a Starcraft tournament with a cracked version of the game.

I don't think its much like that. Some people own the books and just want to be able to jump to what they need more quickly. Its practical and pragmatic if you own the books and unethical if you don't.

I'm pretty sure he didnt. And he wasn't experienced (like a 10 year old). Also, you don't just blatantly walk out the shop with it, and pretend its yours.

I have scans of my sisters white dwarfs. Printed and page protectors. I find it silly that I have to bring my actual mags with me just to prove I have a white dwarf that's out of print. But I still do anyway to avoid confrontation. Had mine stolen before. So thats why I use My copies

 conker249 wrote:
I have scans of my sisters white dwarfs. Printed and page protectors. I find it silly that I have to bring my actual mags with me just to prove I have a white dwarf that's out of print. But I still do anyway to avoid confrontation. Had mine stolen before. So thats why I use My copies

I'm the same way with codexs. I just print pdfs and put them in binders. It's nice to have a single binder that contains all the space marines.

The day the Daemons came out for 40k I just asked the shop owner if I could take the store copy next door and make photo copies.

He said sure, so I copied the entire book. I had to chop it up and rearrange all the info to make the codex 4 pages long.

Then I gave the codex back to the store owner along with money for the codex. Next week I went in and grabbed by real copy off the shelf.

i like printing and binders because i also put the FAQ for that race and the Rulebook faq as well. and races for all my friends armies too.

 snooggums wrote:

 Akaiyou wrote:

While playing a game between me and a friend who was playing Necrons fielding Nemesor but using the Stormlord model, I said to my friend "dude get Nemesor already stop proxying the stormlord I was getting confused already'

[As a side note this was the second game my friend does that proxy. In our previous game he proxied a bunch of heavy destroyers without arms, so today i gave him 4 heavy destroyer arms free to help]

...

In this game i had 1 such model was a Grey Knight terminator that was missing his psycannon because I still haven't bought the extra bit for it and do not want a psilencer/etc. However my argument is that plenty people at the store play with armless models as well, and as long as I let the opponent know that 'hey that dude missing the arm is carrying a psycannon' everything should be fine because in the end it's the same model hard to get confused, where as someone proxying an entirely different model is way more confusing, specially when they don't even point out that 'hey this dude is a different dude'

I'm sorry, remembering a single model is 'X' is harder than remembering a model missing an arm is carrying 'Y'? I think the reason you had a negative reaction from the store owner had a lot more to do with your attitude than any specific actions you described in your story.

I fully agree with snooggums. Humans tend to over look issues when they are been compared side by side in plain writing, or on forums.
Yet,we really should take into account of hypocrisy. Because for everything you complain about, Akayiou, which you also do so yourself,
it'll come back to you 2folds. Because the audacity + justice and punishment.

That and as others have said, they allow you to game not completely out of kindness, but your table acts as a display for other customers to see.
I can imagine the manager has already been irked by your unpainted armies.

The only thing you should do is, bring the friend you mentioned, apologize to him, and apologize to the manager at the same time,
and never complain again.

Have you considered this?

You weren't banned for a specific reason. It is simply you create a poor atmosphere and don't make up for this by spending enough money.

Okay, I just read all four pages up to this point, and I am really confused.

How can you have two people who AGREE on something get into such a heated altercation, that one of the two of them is banned from the store?

This makes absolutely no sense. None, whatsoever.

It must take a really dedicated TFG personality type for two people to agree their way into a fight like this.

Anyways, we have two small FLGSs in my small community. The one is the "main" place that has a spot downtown. The other is the "other" gaming place over by the interstate that is comprised mostly of people who have been banned from the main place. In this case, the guy who runs the "main" place is so bat-poop crazy (he once, I kid you not, accused me of being a spy for the other place, and trying to get his players to go there instead) that the "other" store exists for people who weren't TFG enough to be able to withstand the owner of the "main" place.

My point is that when there is a conflict like this, eventually the store will begin to self-segregate, either becoming mostly TFGs or mostly non-TFGs. Either the manager is the awful person, and you're a saint, and you're going to start going to a new gaming store (or starting a new gaming group) that's full of nice people, or you're the TFG, and you're getting expelled from the group so that the store can be a safe place for nice people to play.

Given that this whole thing started by you making a snide comment to another player for doing something you yourself do... well... I can guess which of those two scenarios is more likely.

If you do find a new place and get into trouble there, or you find that, mysteriously, nobody's willing to start a gaming group with you, then perhaps you need to break out the incense and spend a few hours meditating on why nobody gets along with you.

Legally, they can ban you for anything, even if they just don't like you.

Realistically, there's going to be company policies. You can probably ask customer service what the policy is. It's probably going to be anything that could cause other people not to spend money in the store.

If he got on you for proxying models and singled you out, then you should report him to customer service. Don't try and negotiate. Yes, he will take it personally, but he'll realize he can't push you around. There are some GW employees who will try to bully you into spending more money, usually by not letting you get away with as much or just harassing you about proxies because you don't spend the money to buy all the proper models.

 ExNoctemNacimur wrote:
It's their store, they can do whatever they like.

^ this.

Hrmm, having never been banned from a store, I cannot speak from experience. However, having seen people banned from a store, I've found that they've usually been warned multiple times about their behaviour.

Personally I'd rather play with or against unpainted models than with or against poorly painted models... Unfortunately most people love to paint their expensive models horribly. But neither I nor GW has the right to say that it's wrong.

If this was a GW store I'd inform GW that they have a manager who is banning people for playing with unpainted armies. I would think you'd get their attention. GW loves business and hates bad PR.
Managers should not be getting belligerent with customers. Period. You didn't even ask for his input.

I agree with the manager on all counts.

Especially since I sincerely doubt we're getting the full story.

 Archonate wrote:
GW loves business and hates bad PR.
.

Proof read please.

First off report him that is poor customer service being a CS manager my self he should know to never but in on a customers conversation like that very unprofessional. However he does have the rite to ask you to not return to the premises. You did nothing wrong here he lit the fire when he butted in on your conversation I would find a new place to play. Also as I said before call GW and complain no one should have to shop or even play with that kind of DB running a store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
Really I'm not sure why you even would have continued. Why fed his fire? After his first comment you should have just gone "Yea I guess I'm in no position to talk....back to the shooting phase" and moved on. It's that simple, you can defuse many situations by just...moving on. Now everyone has their panties in a tiffy for no good reason.

point is the Store Manager should have never put in his 2 cents to begin with. Keep in mind this is a GW store and he represents GW if it was a FLGS he can do what he wants, but even though he's running the store he doesn't own the store. So he should have acted professionally and not said anything and the whole situation would have never happened. Customer = Innocent .... Manager = Guilty in this situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Akaiyou wrote:


Any how the store manager butts in at my comment and starts ranting about how I shouldn't be one to talk as I some times proxy models without arms and my armies all look like crap because I don't paint.

For any who want to question my view point. That phrase that I made bold is all I needed.

Considering we don't know both sides of the story we can't say for definite who is in the wrong, the original question was 'can someone be banned from a GW store?' The answer is yes, and for not very much reason at all.

I suspect there's more to the story than we're being told, since we're only hearing one side

I play Greys at my local GW store, but the manager doesn't complain because he knows I am a painter of single models to a high level, not an army painter.

At least prime them, get some leadbelcher or like, dry brush them, and put blue on the eyes and a few touches of gold. It would take very little time to do that just to have a "street legal" painted army.

Sounds like there might be history here. Rarely seen people thrown out of stores for so little. Realistically, he should have had the discussion off to the side or on a break with you in private. It's more respectful and the more mature way of doing it (on both parts).

Sounds crappy, hope you can iron things out.

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

Considering your location the irony of this statement is immensely high.

If we own the actual army books, but carry pdf to store (that are pirated)
is that allowed? I have seen people use those on IPADS

This reminds me of when me and about 5 friends went to our local store and started a campain. The store manager stopped us after the first game and said we can't continue because all 6 of us need the £50 rulebook and only me and 1 other guy had one! He said if each of us have £50 come and buy one or leave!

 Tod wrote:
This reminds me of when me and about 5 friends went to our local store and started a campain. The store manager stopped us after the first game and said we can't continue because all 6 of us need the £50 rulebook and only me and 1 other guy had one! He said if each of us have £50 come and buy one or leave!

thats horrible, do you still play there?

 conker249 wrote:

 Tod wrote:
This reminds me of when me and about 5 friends went to our local store and started a campain. The store manager stopped us after the first game and said we can't continue because all 6 of us need the £50 rulebook and only me and 1 other guy had one! He said if each of us have £50 come and buy one or leave!

thats horrible, do you still play there?

No, not any more. We go some where else now.

 LunaHound wrote:
If we own the actual army books, but carry pdf to store (that are pirated)
is that allowed? I have seen people use those on IPADS

I'd say no, unless you carry around a photo of you with your army book, perhaps with instagram, to give it that "I'm such a pro photographer" look.

Really though, if I was the store manager, and not a one like the one in Tod's post, and it's my job to make sure players own the official copy of the codex and not pirated pdf, I still would say no, because just about anyone could lie that they have the army book.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Tyriion wrote:
My local GW banned someone for using a pirated .pdf of a codex on his phone,so yes, you can be banned.

Considering your location the irony of this statement is immensely high.

Haha, very funny , but actually my local GW does not have any rough/thieving/anti-social members anyway, this was a one off with a normal person.