So the flying Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is out of the box now and it seems that he's the new Chaos Space Marine flying tank.

With a power armour and the Mark of Tzeentch he can absorb and lot of firepower when he's in swooping mode and when I say a lot, I mean a lot... just to hit him with snapshot's is a challenge. With the Burning Brand he's got a torrent template S4, AP3... an infantry killer... and when he's ready to land he's still a close combat brute.

Ok he's killable with a flyer and anti-aircraft weaponry, but still... he's got that invulnerable save and a lot of wounds... he start the game on the table (unlike a flyer) and can reach up to 36" from it's starting position with the Burning Brand.

That guy is a beast to take down while he's in flight...
I wasn't a fan of the new Daemon Prince but that guy is coming back from the grave and earned a place back in my list...

Yup. He's good. Until you realize a single str 10 shot and he's done for the day.

I like shooting drop pod and other little bolters at fliers trying to make them hit the deck. Tends to work most of the time.

Furthermore the DP must start on the table in normal mode, meaning I can hit him easily, and I will give him a triple railgun salute... BSF away!

Agreed, he's killable and he's a huge point sink, to lose him at the beginning of turn one would hur, but if he start the game behind cover and get in swooping mode then he actually have a chance to hit something from turn one.

Also, since he can swith modes and move like jump infantry that's a turn 2 charge in a tank (if played well) and since he's a FMC his smash attacks should worry any tank he hits.

He's not something you want to ignore and that make him a great disrupting unit and every heavy weapon you shoot his way is a weapon that won't shoot anything else... and he's got that 5+ inv. save and he can re-roll the 1's... that's almost a 4+ inv. save, it's kinda sweet...

New fire magnet !

You can easily hide the model out of LOS turn 1.

After that it's up to a little bit of luck.

He' pricey and scary. If you go with mastery3, you get a couple shots at getting iron arm. or the other one that gives EW/FNP/IWND

I think Daemon princes have really lost there last leg for purchasable models. theyre really good but expensive and you cant rely on them as much with a worse invuln and no eternal warrior. I saw someone slap the burning brand on a slanash lord on a mount with outflank and acute senses with a bike squad and fnp for close to the same price. I had some fun with ahriman percision shotting a csm seargents face while facing this list, Ahriman daemoning out then charging, challenging lucius and smashing him in the face. Silly fun

 juraigamer wrote:
Yup. He's good. Until you realize a single str 10 shot and he's done for the day.

I like shooting drop pod and other little bolters at fliers trying to make them hit the deck. Tends to work most of the time.

Furthermore the DP must start on the table in normal mode, meaning I can hit him easily, and I will give him a triple railgun salute... BSF away!

FMC don't have to start on the table in jump mode, if they start on the table the have to start in jump mode, if the prince comes in from reserve he can choose to either come in as flying or jump, or deepstrike in.

A single S10 shot and a landraider or a monolith is done for the day for the day too

 juraigamer wrote:
Yup. He's good. Until you realize a single str 10 shot and he's done for the day.

I like shooting drop pod and other little bolters at fliers trying to make them hit the deck. Tends to work most of the time.

Furthermore the DP must start on the table in normal mode, meaning I can hit him easily, and I will give him a triple railgun salute... BSF away!

You know railguns only roll 1s to wound.

RG's are a good choice to ID DPs however you need to see them to do so. Hiding him out of LOS turn 1 when this stuff around is key

He must start on the table in normal mode, not must start on the table. Putting him in reserve just increases the handicap in your power until he comes in, and opens the door for mishap and other problems, such as warp quake.

If he start the game on the table hidden somewhere he should be safe enought.

He's suffering a lot because of that T5 but how many S10 weapon do you find on a battlefield? (not talking about the Tau here I know how many they can field ).

The thing is that he's almost immune to small arm fire, especially from the S4 weapons and the Burning Brand gives him a shooting power he can use to kill infantry while swooping... and we know how important is infantry to take objective, that guy is a challenger and an infantry killer all in one...

I thought the Daemon rule gave him eternal warrior? Is that gone now... can someone point me to the page in the BRB or Chaos SM book where it says this...

Why are people soooo hung up on the fact Str10 kills the DP?

how much Str10 is out there?

Railguns. One army

There are quite a few blasts, but guess what? Flying models don't care about blasts. The only time he should be gliding is if hes about to go wreck face in melee.

force weps, power klaws, tyranids or other monsters, walkers. And if they have any of this you can be pretty sure its comming for your DP

 Bloodecho wrote:
force weps, power klaws, tyranids or other monsters, walkers. And if they have any of this you can be pretty sure its comming for your DP

And while they do they ignore the other 1700 pts on the table? Great!
Disruption at it's best... you don't want to fight it but you can't ignore it! Makes me think of my Trygons...

Proxy wrote:
but still... he's got that invulnerable save and a lot of wounds...

He only has a 5++ inv like every other prince in the CSM dex. He does have the reroll 1s which is handy with power armor and helps a small bit with the inv, but not sure its better then say nurgle who gets shrouding.

Whilst he is vulnerable to S10, unless you face tau fairly regularly its no biggie. They need to ground him first, and I think one of the key choices in FMC's is when and where to take to the skys.

If you reeeaaaaallly want to get that manticore over on the other side of big blob of guardsmen, then flying over them to rain fire on the manticore is a bad idea for example. Those guardsmen will cop a FRFSRF order, and whilst the flashlights aren't going to hurt too much, they are going to ground you if they put enough cheap guardsmen flashlight rounds into him. then they will point the big guns at you when they don't require 6's to hit.

So asides from railguns, being downed by mass small arms fire is a big concern. And as a small note- the other list of horribles happening to your DP-
PK's are only S10 with a warboss, and to be frank your DP shouldn't be getting stuck into a warboss and his retinue. That's just grossly overestimating your DP's melee prowess- a nob mob or big block o' orks isn't what your DP wants to tango with on his own.
Force weapons can be challenged. Hope you've got a good invul save, or more than one in the unit! Again- maybe charging several force weapons ain't the best idea? I'm sure people should be able to see that one coming.
Sure he has his weakness's- but doesn't everything?

 Jihallah wrote:
Whilst he is vulnerable to S10, unless you face tau fairly regularly its no biggie. They need to ground him first, and I think one of the key choices in FMC's is when and where to take to the skys.

If you reeeaaaaallly want to get that manticore over on the other side of big blob of guardsmen, then flying over them to rain fire on the manticore is a bad idea for example. Those guardsmen will cop a FRFSRF order, and whilst the flashlights aren't going to hurt too much, they are going to ground you if they put enough cheap guardsmen flashlight rounds into him. then they will point the big guns at you when they don't require 6's to hit.

So asides from railguns, being downed by mass small arms fire is a big concern. And as a small note- the other list of horribles happening to your DP-
PK's are only S10 with a warboss, and to be frank your DP shouldn't be getting stuck into a warboss and his retinue. That's just grossly overestimating your DP's melee prowess- a nob mob or big block o' orks isn't what your DP wants to tango with on his own.
Force weapons can be challenged. Hope you've got a good invul save, or more than one in the unit! Again- maybe charging several force weapons ain't the best idea? I'm sure people should be able to see that one coming.
Sure he has his weakness's- but doesn't everything?

they can FRFSRF all they want, it's 1 test per unit fired IIRC.

With my luck I'll pass all the grounding tests and die to flashlights...

Nah the flashlights won't kill you. But you make a test for being hit(iirc), with a 1/3 chance of falling down, so point 3-4 rapid fire units at him... He's got good odds of dropping then getting focused

 Jihallah wrote:
Nah the flashlights won't kill you. But you make a test for being hit(iirc), with a 1/3 chance of falling down, so point 3-4 rapid fire units at him... He's got good odds of dropping then getting focused

I forget people don't roll 3+ like I do, it ought to be a crime ^^

However do you take FRFSRF or Bring it down? I'd opt for BiD in this case imo

Not a guard player.

But- you must use orders at the start of the turn. BiD you would want on your plasma vets, SWS or HWS. the thing needs to be grounded first. Its situational, but if I have a 20-30 blob I'd FRFSRF for more flashlight hits since that first volley only had a 1/3 chance of a good result (lasgun wounds are just a bonus, the main job is to down it)

An infantry platoon will usually have a special weapon, and often a heavy. So you are looking at 6 lasgunners, a sarge, a HWT and a special. FRFSRF in this case turns 12-13 shots into 24-25. For a naked squad, it turns 18-19 shots into 36-37 shots. Since they need 6s to hit, this means about 2 hits to 4 hits or 4 hits to 6 hits. In any case, should be sufficient to force the chesk. Get three squads on him, and he should hit the ground. Then light him up with plasma, melta, lascannons, or whatever.

At 300 or so points, it is generally worth the attention.

Lacking EW isn't the big hit for DPs this go round, it's the price and that you need another HQ to unlock marked troops.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why are people soooo hung up on the fact Str10 kills the DP?

how much Str10 is out there?

Tau have some
Guard have some
Nercons have some
Space marines have some
Nids have some
Chaos marines have some

That's all the armies with str 10 shooting that I can think of. Not even counting melee. Watch me smash attack your demon prince at str 10.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I thought the Daemon rule gave him eternal warrior? Is that gone now... can someone point me to the page in the BRB or Chaos SM book where it says this...

So where in the new rules does daemon not confer eternal warrior?

 juraigamer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why are people soooo hung up on the fact Str10 kills the DP?

how much Str10 is out there?

1)Tau have some
2)Guard have some
3)Nercons have some
4)Space marines have some
5)Nids have some
6)Chaos marines have some

That's all the armies with str 10 shooting that I can think of. Not even counting melee. Watch me smash attack your demon prince at str 10.

1) Its one army

2) Its all pieplates. Which a FMC is immune to.

3) Only hits on a 6 with one shot.

4) Again, pie plates.

5) The DP can smash right back at them.

6) Same deal



Its really not a huge deal. You ARE running your prince with Wings right?

I think there is a spot for this guy. I can't imagine any army could ignore this guy, so they have to do SOMETHING. There is a chance that that something won't work.
Step 1: Swoop
Step 2: Fire Burning Brand
Step 3: ???
Step 4: PROFIT!!!

This guy has to compliment your list otherwise he'll be a wasted investment. Knowing that most armies have to deal with him, use him as an immediate threat while you turbo boost your Bikes foward, run your insanely fast Maulerfiends and Nurgle Spawn and make them pick. Something will hit that gun line and start wrecking shop... while your Marines roll up in Rhinos to clean up.
I like this guy!

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I thought the Daemon rule gave him eternal warrior? Is that gone now... can someone point me to the page in the BRB or Chaos SM book where it says this...

So where in the new rules does daemon not confer eternal warrior?

Page 35 BRB defines the Daemon SR.

Codex: Daemons specifies that everything in that Codex has EW. The Codex: Chaos Space Marines does not use the entry for Codex: Daemons.

 juraigamer wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Why are people soooo hung up on the fact Str10 kills the DP?

how much Str10 is out there?

Tau have some
Guard have some
Nercons have some
Space marines have some
Nids have some
Chaos marines have some

That's all the armies with str 10 shooting that I can think of. Not even counting melee. Watch me smash attack your demon prince at str 10.

nilla marines have a psykic power that is str10 shooting attack
blood angles have a psykic power that is str10 in combat
DE have missiles that are ID
DE have 2 different melee weapons that cause ID.
Every model in the GK book practically has ID

really there is just too much str10 / ID for a 250-300 point nasty that doesnt have EW. If he was 150, it would be a risk, but manageable.

Would you pay this number of points for 4 Plague Marines? That's as hard as a daemon prince is to kill, by and large.

 Grey Templar wrote:



1) Its one army

2) Its all pieplates. Which a FMC is immune to.

3) Only hits on a 6 with one shot.

4) Again, pie plates.

5) The DP can smash right back at them.

6) Same deal

FMCs aren't immune to pie plates if you make them drop with enough hits. You're making the very poor assumption that people aren't going to try and ground it before using str:10 weapons.

Grounding tests really take alot of the fear out of FMC. I mean marklights can trigger a grounding test.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I thought the Daemon rule gave him eternal warrior? Is that gone now... can someone point me to the page in the BRB or Chaos SM book where it says this...

So where in the new rules does daemon not confer eternal warrior?

Page 35 BRB defines the Daemon SR.

Codex: Daemons specifies that everything in that Codex has EW. The Codex: Chaos Space Marines does not use the entry for Codex: Daemons.

Thank you for answering my question

This "can be instant deathed" crap and "can be grounded" crap is nothing but crap.
Everything in the game has a hard counter. Everything. Lets even look at good units:

Imperial Guard Veterans: Heavy Flamer!
... but they are in a chimera!
... ANY self respecting player would kill the Chimera first then use the heavy flamer! DUH! Veterans are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a heavy flamer?!? TOOO MANNYYY TOO COUNTTT@!!!1!!

Psyfilemen Dreadnaught: Meltagun!
... but you need to be close!
... ANY self respecting player would deep strike right next to you and melta your ass. Dummy. Psyfilmen are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a meltagun?!?! TOOO MANDSNDNNDNNNYTNT!!!11!!

So, the Daemon Prince is not bad because he can be killed. Every stupid model/unit in the game can be killed, and rather easily. Trying to argue something isn't good because it can be killed is like arguing that filet miginion is terrible because it is gone after you eat it.
There are valid reasons on why this guy could be bad:

Points: Are there units in the codex that fulfill a similar role for cheaper?
Competition in the FOC: Are there units in the same slot that compete and are needed more that this one?
Cost: is the model cost prohibitive in actual dollars (this matters believe it or not!)?
Role in the metagame: does the current format discourage this type of unit? Does it favor it?
List composition: does this unit effectively fill a needed battlefield role better than other units in your LIST?

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

Grounding tests really take alot of the fear out of FMC. I mean marklights can trigger a grounding test.

Hey, ever got a kid's cheap markerlight flashed in your eye ? it's damn painful !
Think about that poor flying monstrosity eye's ! they hurt too (FMC should come with a compliment of tissues to remove tears from said FMC's eyes)

And a FMC flying over an IG platoon is like a chopper pilot getting blinded by a barrage of stroboscopic lights !

 Brymm wrote:
I think there is a spot for this guy. I can't imagine any army could ignore this guy, so they have to do SOMETHING. There is a chance that that something won't work.
Step 1: Swoop
Step 2: Fire Burning Brand
Step 3: ???
Step 4: PROFIT!!!

This guy has to compliment your list otherwise he'll be a wasted investment. Knowing that most armies have to deal with him, use him as an immediate threat while you turbo boost your Bikes foward, run your insanely fast Maulerfiends and Nurgle Spawn and make them pick. Something will hit that gun line and start wrecking shop... while your Marines roll up in Rhinos to clean up.
I like this guy!

Heldrake with the Baleflamer does the same job for a lot cheaper. I'd argue its more resilient than a Daemon Prince too.

I tried using the Daemon Prince, and I really want to like it. But in the new codex its just not cost effective.

 Brymm wrote:
This "can be instant deathed" crap and "can be grounded" crap is nothing but crap.
Everything in the game has a hard counter. Everything. Lets even look at good units:

Imperial Guard Veterans: Heavy Flamer!
... but they are in a chimera!
... ANY self respecting player would kill the Chimera first then use the heavy flamer! DUH! Veterans are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a heavy flamer?!? TOOO MANNYYY TOO COUNTTT@!!!1!!

Psyfilemen Dreadnaught: Meltagun!
... but you need to be close!
... ANY self respecting player would deep strike right next to you and melta your ass. Dummy. Psyfilmen are TERRIBLE! How many armies have access to a meltagun?!?! TOOO MANDSNDNNDNNNYTNT!!!11!!

So, the Daemon Prince is not bad because he can be killed. Every stupid model/unit in the game can be killed, and rather easily. Trying to argue something isn't good because it can be killed is like arguing that filet miginion is terrible because it is gone after you eat it.
There are valid reasons on why this guy could be bad:

Points: Are there units in the codex that fulfill a similar role for cheaper?
Competition in the FOC: Are there units in the same slot that compete and are needed more that this one?
Cost: is the model cost prohibitive in actual dollars (this matters believe it or not!)?
Role in the metagame: does the current format discourage this type of unit? Does it favor it?
List composition: does this unit effectively fill a needed battlefield role better than other units in your LIST?

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

It's quite valid if you're used to the old one having EW, if you look at his huge points tag. Running a DP for C:CSM is taking a huge pricey risk that may pay out in some games

 XT-1984 wrote:


Heldrake with the Baleflamer does the same job for a lot cheaper. I'd argue its more resilient than a Daemon Prince too.

I tried using the Daemon Prince, and I really want to like it. But in the new codex its just not cost effective.

I would agree here. But a Lord, Bike, Burning Brand does it even BETTER!

DP is worth his points.
He just needs to be used correctly.

If you roll Iron Arm / Endurance that provides durability and allows you to be much more aggressive with its use.

If you dont roll useful support powers you need additional distractions so your DP doesnt get slain before he's even made it into combat. Totally dependant on situation and army faced but tactics need to be adopted to ensure he does what he needs to do.

He is a massive problem for any army. He needs to die and your opponent will know this. This can also be used to your advantage.

Driving him straight into a gun line of bolters isn't going to end well for you.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
It's quite valid if you're used to the old one having EW, if you look at his huge points tag. Running a DP for C:CSM is taking a huge pricey risk that may pay out in some games

Tyranid players feel for you. No really. We don't pay horrendous points for (F)MCs that don't have EW.

Yes, all of ours have T6 instead of T5 but that still leaves a lot of potential for ID - and we pay more overall.

 Brymm wrote:


So, the Daemon Prince is not bad because he can be killed. Every stupid model/unit in the game can be killed, and rather easily. Trying to argue something isn't good because it can be killed is like arguing that filet miginion is terrible because it is gone after you eat it.

Every unit has a hard counter. The DP, however, has several astonishingly soft counters. Even a mob of Necron Warriors or Guardsmen can put the hurt on a flying Prince merely by rapid-firing weapons that would make a Vendetta, Dread or Trygon laugh. And while yes, you can kill a Vendetta in one fell shot, it can be made redundant via cost, FOC flexibility and numbers, like Psyrifledreads. Not the case with DPs, definitely.

The loss of EW is the cherry on the crap sundae. I've lost DPs to simple rapid-firing bolters before, but at least I knew I was not going to just see it vanish from a single blow or shot: demolisher blasts, Dark Gates, railguns. Even in CC, which should be the spot where the Prince shines, you can just back you a bit into terrain and have him strike last, ensuring that he will eat power fists, poisoned weapons and the like.

 Brymm wrote:

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

too many points that doesn't soak up the shots like other things at the same points cost do and doesn't put out enough damage to make it worth it. for example for almost to same price you can field 2 helldrakes kills more and is harder to kill

Some will argue that it's easy to take out 2 Heldrakes out of the sky... Str 10 weapons or a vendetta with 3 TL LC and all that... or that they are targets for massed fire rapid firing units...

I will take that Daemon Prince in my army for the exact same reason I take a Dakka Flyrant to lead my Tyranids... He's a FMC, he can shoot a squad of infantry and hurt it really badly just before charging it and when he decide to land he still is an awesome close combat fiend who can smash a wide variety of targets... ex.: a unit of terminator that just deep striked... those AP2 attacks at I8 are just monstruous.

The chaos that such a unit cause is generally worth the points on the model alone and the amount of fire he will take is just a bonus.

That guy is a beast and he's scary, what more could we ask?... well... a 25 pts decrease would be great .

Is he killable ? Entirely... but not easily if the player who controls him know what he's doing... anyway I wouldn't want an invencible model in my army, it would break the game.

Just my 2 cents.

We are just claiming that the new demon prince isn't as amazing as he looks, simply by the lack of eternal warrior. He's an expensive and deadly unit, but one wrong roll and he's toast.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Brymm wrote:

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

300 points? Maybe if you're fully decking them out with Wings, power armor, three mastery levels, and a Chaos Artifact. A DP with wings and power armor will cost you 215 or 220 points. It's doable to sink 300 points, but I doubt most people are dropping that on a DP. The OP is talking about a 215 points.

I'm not saying that I think they are worth the points, but exaggerating your point is just as bad as someone using strawman arguments.

 kcwm wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Brymm wrote:

Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

300 points? Maybe if you're fully decking them out with Wings, power armor, three mastery levels, and a Chaos Artifact. A DP with wings and power armor will cost you 215 or 220 points. It's doable to sink 300 points, but I doubt most people are dropping that on a DP. The OP is talking about a 215 points.

I'm not saying that I think they are worth the points, but exaggerating your point is just as bad as someone using strawman arguments.

Excuse my numbers, I don't possess the CSM codex. I hardly think a over estimation is the equivalent of logical fallacies.

The setup I'm talking about is exactly 250 pts.
That's a DP with wings in a power armour, the MoT and the Burning Brand of Skalathrax (the S4, AP3 template (torrent) weapon).

Yes you could take 2 Heldrake for 340 pts and be better equipped, but for 90 more pts I do hope so!

Many people take MC's that are not FMC's and they cost about the same... Tyranids players being the main exemple... Yes I love my 210 pts Trygon and he doesn't fly...

He is a point sink but I will rate him according by the small questionnaire Brymm put up (it's a great way to rate a unit btw thx Brymm).

Are there units in the codex that fulfill a similar role for cheaper?
I could take 2 units that could, for the same amount of points, do the what he does... but they take two slots in my FOC.

Are there units in the same slot that compete and are needed more that this one?
Debatable... he is a great second (sacrificiable?) HQ choice. If we take for granted that all the unique characters in our HQ list will be the Warlord of the army, the DP is in competition with the Chaos Lord, the Sorcerer, the Dark Apostle and the Warpsmith. If no unique are taken then we can assume that either a Chaos Lord or a Sorcerer will be used as the Warlord. None of those choices are more needed than the DP, they all have different roles but they do not have his disruption capacity and they are not as powerful as single models. A well geared second HQ choice can easily go up to 180-240 pts too.

Is the model cost prohibitive in actual dollars (this matters believe it or not!)?
No. Also, many people already have a DP with wings that they want to shelve because they believe it's too expensive to field such a model but in itself and in comparison with other GW products, the DP is affordable.

Role in the metagame: does the current format discourage this type of unit? Does it favor it?
I believe any kind of flyer is encouraged by the new rules and the current format, we will see a lot more flyers from now on in every list as they definitly give an advantage to the player who have them and a disadvantage to the player who don't. Also, since the DP is a FMC he can be used to counter flyers with vector strike (even against AV12 flyers) and still shoot at another target with his Burning Brand he have more than one role he can fulfill.

List composition: does this unit effectively fill a needed battlefield role better than other units in your LIST?
Distracting fire magnet with a good save and many wound who can destroy infantry units and tank alike without too much trouble. Unless unlucky or badly played this model is sure to make his points back and he's a hard counter to something vital to win games and take objectives... troops...

To be toroughly tested .

 Griddlelol wrote:


No one is claiming the unit is bad because it can be ID'd, they're claiming it's bad because it's around 300 points an can be ID'd. When you use strawman arguments to defend your point, it just goes to help those that disagre with you.

Whoa, I see what you are saying but alas, that is also incorrect. Read from post 1 to the last one. Every other post is "can be one shotted! It stinks!" Read them. Straw man, out the window. I understand you may think he's bad for other reasons but that doesn't mean I can't say that he ISN'T bad because he can be instant deathed like others have claimed.
Oh and when you attempt to look snarky and point out that you know what a straw man argument is, it just makes people think you're much too smart to be playing with toys.
Don't give up on the Prince!
I will use the fluff gamer response: He's such a great looking model!

 Brymm wrote:

Whoa, I see what you are saying but alas, that is also incorrect. Read from post 1 to the last one. Every other post is "can be one shotted! It stinks!" Read them. Straw man, out the window. I understand you may think he's bad for other reasons but that doesn't mean I can't say that he ISN'T bad because he can be instant deathed like others have claimed.

You're quite right, I didn't think people were saying that, but apparently they were.

Oh and when you attempt to look snarky and point out that you know what a straw man argument is, it just makes people think you're much too smart to be playing with toys.

No such thing as too smart to play with toys.

Proxy wrote:
He's a FMC, he can shoot a squad of infantry and hurt it really badly just before charging it and when he decide to land he still is an awesome close combat fiend who can smash a wide variety of targets... ex.: a unit of terminator that just deep striked... those AP2 attacks at I8 are just monstruous.

He can only shoot with psychic powers, risking his crappy LD and being shut down (Runes of Warding and Shadow in the Warp can easily make him kill himself) or with the Brand, which can be put in better models. Also, if you want to fly around dropping templates, the Helldrake is more cost-efficient.

As for close combat, he's...decent, but no more than that. He will kill about 3-4 marines a turn, since sadly thw WS table never goes below a 3+, unlike BS. If those terminators you mean are assault terminators, though, he'll be lucky to kill one. And I8 is nice, but any smart player will put his important troops in cover when he's about, meaning you have the same Initiative as a Carfinex: 1.

It can lead to some scenarios of no good choice. I gave my old DP playtest last week and really needed to dislodge an enemy Dreadnought and all my meltas were on the other side of the table. It was in terrain, so if i charged it I could expect S10 hits at I4 insta-killing the Prince. I wussed out and used a vector strike that did nothing, then got hit the next turn by the thing's assault cannon and took a wound crashing down.

The Tzeentch Prince tends to be more expensive than the others due to buying mastery levels, but it's not really more survivable. Any army with half-decent anti-air will erase him in one turn.

 Sephyr wrote:
He can only shoot with psychic powers, risking his crappy LD and being shut down (Runes of Warding and Shadow in the Warp can easily make him kill himself) or with the Brand, which can be put in better models. Also, if you want to fly around dropping templates, the Helldrake is more cost-efficient.

As for close combat, he's...decent, but no more than that. He will kill about 3-4 marines a turn, since sadly thw WS table never goes below a 3+, unlike BS. If those terminators you mean are assault terminators, though, he'll be lucky to kill one. And I8 is nice, but any smart player will put his important troops in cover when he's about, meaning you have the same Initiative as a Carfinex: 1.

It can lead to some scenarios of no good choice. I gave my old DP playtest last week and really needed to dislodge an enemy Dreadnought and all my meltas were on the other side of the table. It was in terrain, so if i charged it I could expect S10 hits at I4 insta-killing the Prince. I wussed out and used a vector strike that did nothing, then got hit the next turn by the thing's assault cannon and took a wound crashing down.

The Tzeentch Prince tends to be more expensive than the others due to buying mastery levels, but it's not really more survivable. Any army with half-decent anti-air will erase him in one turn.

Ld 9 is not a crappy Ld, it's not the best around but it's still quite good. Anyway, I won't give him powers or psyker level, that would be too much for not much return, psychic powers being what they are now.

I agree that the Heldrake is more cost-efficient, but the DP job is something different, they do not have the same job and the same effect. I could argue that any army with half-decent anti-air will erase those in one turn too but there's no point to make there.

We can find soooo many situations where a DP would lose against many scary units... maybe my exemple against the Terminators wasn't the best one.. but still, there are many situations where the DP will be a great counter unit and win the day... even if it's just by being a denial unit dropping on an objective during the last turn... I remember Eldar players doing just that with a Falcon full of troops that did nothing the whole game except capture that objective 24" from its position.

As for being decent in close combat... well that means we have no good close combat units or character in our codex because when I look at his stats... no one have WS9, S6, I8 and 5 base attacks. Chaos Spawns could get lucky and get 6 attacks if the dice are with them but that's it. Also none of the other units or character in our codex have AP2 on all their attacks (except if they take a power axe but it means they have I1 then), a free attack at I10 on the charge (Hammer of Wrath) and the possibility to make 3 attacks at S10 instead of their regular attacks.

If that's only decent, then Kharn is kinda crappy in close combat too and Abaddon is somewhat good but not really...

Proxy wrote:

Ld 9 is not a crappy Ld, it's not the best around but it's still quite good. Anyway, I won't give him powers or psyker level, that would be too much for not much return, psychic powers being what they are now.

.......

As for being decent in close combat... well that means we have no good close combat units or character in our codex because when I look at his stats... no one have WS9, S6, I8 and 5 base attacks. Chaos Spawns could get lucky and get 6 attacks if the dice are with them but that's it. Also none of the other units or character in our codex have AP2 on all their attacks (except if they take a power axe but it means they have I1 then), a free attack at I10 on the charge (Hammer of Wrath) and the possibility to make 3 attacks at S10 instead of their regular attacks.

If that's only decent, then Kharn is kinda crappy in close combat too and Abaddon is somewhat good but not really...

LD 9 is bad if you are going to be rolling it constantly, which psykers will. By definition.

As for the Prince's CC power, it's just not reliable. If you are using him just to kill plain tacticals...there are better ways to do that. If he can expect to lose against CC heavy hitters and has to avoid them, he's weak. It's really quite simple.

Kharn is way cheaper than a Prince, hits harder, has more attacks, hits better, destroys tanks far better and can hide in a unit with a 2+ to toss ID attacks to his buddies, not to mention having grenades to fight at his full Ini every time. That's just CC; He can also hide in a transport, has a great Warlord Trait, and makes zerkers troops. I'd say he's a far better use of the HQ slot in general, and not just for CC.

Abaddon has better saves, can opt to spam tons of S5 AP2 attacks that re-roll to wound or hit hard enough to ID T4 and still re-roll to wound. He has the same Toughness as the DP but is an Eternal Warrior. Like Kharn, he can shift troublesome wounds to his escorting unit on a 2+. He doesn''t have grenades, though. Really the only way the DP tops both of them is mobility.

I'd prefer one of the force multiplier units as a Warlord or HQ and keep the aerial assault units as Heldrakes. Same thing, it can zoom around and drop templates on stuff (higher str templates too) and is much cheaper allowing you to take a few of them while still maintaining a good overall force. Tzeentch Prince is good but there are better ways to do what he does in the Codex while still allowing you to build a custom Lord or Sorcerer or to even take Abbie, Kharn, or Typhus depending on the build you are going for.

I've run the Dp of Tzeentch and I agree it's one of the best options, he's not BAD I quite liked a lvl 1 psyker as neither boon or bolt are bad for him as he can really benefit from the table. A 2+ rerolling armour is silly for example. The rerolls with power armour do really help.. That said, whilst mine hasn't been S10'd yet there is a fair amount of it, as well as force weapons etc there's a lot that will scare him which is less than ideal for a 300pt model and yes small fire does down them eventually to be railgunned or even just plasma gunned off the board.

Not a bad option, not at all a main stay or obvious choice in the book however.

C-Hydra

 Brymm wrote:


Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

Look dude, there aren't *ANY* other 300 point models that I know of that can be insta-killed with a single shot.

Most big monsters cost half that much and can't be insta-killed. Hell nurgle spawn or tomb spiders are a steal at 30 or so points and are immune to S:10.

Yes, he isn't bad because he can be instantly killed. He is bad because he costs 300 points and can be instantly killed.

Kevlar wrote:

 Brymm wrote:


Take your model, run it through that little list and figure out if your unit is bad.
I'm sorry but your "STR 10 INSTANT DEATH!" is invalid.

Look dude, there aren't *ANY* other 300 point models that I know of that can be insta-killed with a single shot.

Most big monsters cost half that much and can't be insta-killed. Hell nurgle spawn or tomb spiders are a steal at 30 or so points and are immune to S:10.

Yes, he isn't bad because he can be instantly killed. He is bad because he costs 300 points and can be instantly killed.

Swarmlord is 280 before guards, Hive Tyrant is 260 in his most common form, 285 with preferred enemy.
Both can be IDed by force weapons among other things. Enfeeble + STR10 gun would nuke them also.

rigeld2 wrote:

Swarmlord is 280 before guards, Hive Tyrant is 260 in his most common form, 285 with preferred enemy.
Both can be IDed by force weapons among other things. Enfeeble + STR10 gun would nuke them also.

They are both toughness 6 and cheaper than the kitted prince by a good amount. Both would easily kill the prince in CC. And I don't see too many people singing the praises of Tyranid monstrous creatures, even the ones that are more survivable than the prince.

Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

I seriously doubt the mace prince is going to beat a flyrant with lash whip, bone sword, and toxin sacs. How much does that cost exactly? Especially to make them equal psykers since everyone seems to want to deck out the prince... Oh and the Flyrant isn't getting squashed by the first rail gun shot, which was the entire point of this discussion....

Nobody actually runs a melee Flyrant anymore... It's 230-255 points of waiting to be shot at.

And he's just an Enfeeble away from being splatted by the Rail Gun.

rigeld2 wrote:
Nobody actually runs a melee Flyrant anymore... It's 230-255 points of waiting to be shot at.

And he's just an Enfeeble away from being splatted by the Rail Gun.

Ok, anhd the chaos DP is an enfeeble away from being splatted by krak missiles or a psyrifleman... So what is your point there exactly?

Kevlar wrote:

Ok, anhd the chaos DP is an enfeeble away from being splatted by krak missiles or a psyrifleman... So what is your point there exactly?

Not to mention that every big Tyranid beast has way better psyker defense than the DP.

Proxy wrote:
So the flying Daemon Prince of Tzeentch is out of the box now and it seems that he's the new Chaos Space Marine flying tank.

With a power armour and the Mark of Tzeentch he can absorb and lot of firepower when he's in swooping mode and when I say a lot, I mean a lot... just to hit him with snapshot's is a challenge. With the Burning Brand he's got a torrent template S4, AP3... an infantry killer... and when he's ready to land he's still a close combat brute.

Ok he's killable with a flyer and anti-aircraft weaponry, but still... he's got that invulnerable save and a lot of wounds... he start the game on the table (unlike a flyer) and can reach up to 36" from it's starting position with the Burning Brand.

That guy is a beast to take down while he's in flight...
I wasn't a fan of the new Daemon Prince but that guy is coming back from the grave and earned a place back in my list...

You are vastly over-estimating his ability to stay alive. 18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall. Then you unload on him with your big guns at BS. Most armies pack quite a bit of AP2-3 weaponry which will make the Mark almost redundant, and he doesn't have that many wounds when you consider how many wounds all the Nids gribblies have.

He's good, but he's not 250pts+ good.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

 undertow wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

This exactly, in addition you know those days where you just make umpteen 3+'s that's been me with FMC Daemons >.<

Tried an overexpensive DP:
- MoS (for fleet)
- wings
- power amour
- lvl 3
- spell familiar
- black mace.

rolled biomancy: iron arm+endurance (yay).

Opponent: foot Blood angels, 2 devastators, a lot of plasma/melta.

went swooping turn 1 with the majority of the army approaching, the opponent ignored it.
Turn 2, charged a squad, killed it (8 out of 10 assault marines, +3 from a nearby squad). the remaning 2 escaped (rolled 1 to chase, opponent rolled 6 ....this ended up killing the DP since he was no longer locked in combat).

It took the whole opponent's army to gun him down on the following turn, despite me only magaging to roll a single save/fnp for all the wounds caused.

My list was kinda lousy, and my DS units did not came on the second turn to support the DP, but I think that with appropriate support he could have survived and continue the onslaught.

Overall, I might try it again, but in a cheaper non-psyker version.
The black mace is worth it on a flying DP, but it clearly needs support, either helldrakes or deep striking units to divert fire.

Probably not the msot effective HQ, but fun to use, and fun to see the opponent's face when the black mace is in use.

You should try him with the MoT (re-roll every 1's on failed save) and give him the Burning Brand of Skalathrax.

Not that much overpriced at 250 pts...

He doesn't need Black Mace or any powers and making him a level 3 Psykers is a waste of points... otherwise, you said you were unlucky and played him unsupported and he wiped out a devastator squad (~250 pts) and he drew the fire of your opponent army for a full turn... not bad.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

This exactly, in addition you know those days where you just make umpteen 3+'s that's been me with FMC Daemons >.<

Yeah, there are times when an entire army's shooting fails to ground Fateweaver, then the next game he fails the first grounding test, takes his first wound from a Tesla arc and I roll a 12 for his Ld check.

Arleucs wrote:
Tried an overexpensive DP:
- MoS (for fleet)
- wings
- power amour
- lvl 3
- spell familiar
- black mace.

rolled biomancy: iron arm+endurance (yay).

Turn 2, charged a squad, killed it (8 out of 10 assault marines, +3 from a nearby squad). the remaning 2 escaped (rolled 1 to chase, opponent rolled 6 ....this ended up killing the DP since he was no longer locked in combat).

Above is probably the best loadout if you can afford it, Difficult to fit this into anything less than1850 and then still becomes a squeeze
75 points for the slim chance of Iron Arm/Endurance or Warp Speed is hard to swallow, considering you only get 2 rolls it doesn't seem worth it.
Even with these powers your DP died way before he earnt his points back. The rest of your army probably sucked because you didnt have any points left lol.

A lesser version to consider is:
- MoN (for shrouding, Keep him in cover in turn 1 and in swoop mode and aim for a 3+ cover save including the shrouding)
- wings
- black mace. (Its AP2 and causes crazy tougness tests that cause ID? errrm yes please always).

Concerning your experience above, you have to think about keeping him in the fight, You do not want your DP coming out of combat in your turn.
To aid you with this it might be a better idea to issue a challenge, once you win it you'll be in combat with the remaining squad in his turn, if you can clear up then you have your turn to get him back into combat again or in swoop mode and/or in cover.

This guy will either die to a couple of bolters or sweep through half an army.

I think that is important. He can sweep through an entire army. The opponent should know that. If not, remind them!

I think this new DP reminds me a lot of when I play against GK players using Dreadknights. When I play against bad players using a Dreadknight, I gladly shred it with plasma shots and it dies. My opponent complains about how unlucky it was, and I win the game.
When I play against a good player using a Dreadknight (like my good friend), I have considerably more trouble. He doesn't shunt/shoot/die like the bad players. He jumps behind cover turn one, maybe getting a shot at something wtih the torrent gun. I adjust, move a bit, try to pepper some shots at him, but alas, he's behind a building and I only see him with like 2 units! Then on his turn, he shunts behind my lines, torrent fires and wipes a squad in cover... and I get reminded that I need to handle this guy or he will crush my army.
Using him in Swoop isn't the only way to use this guy. You want to be in CC. Some folks out there are saying this guy can't stand up to dedicated assault units... why not? And if you are sure he can't, then don't. You are more mobile than just about every unit in the game. You can Swoop or Glide. You're not slowed by difficult terrain. You can fly/jump over impassable. If you don't want to fight TH/SS terminators, by god, you don't have to.
Think about this: as a Tzeentch Prince, in CC against just about everything, you are being hit on 5's due to you being WS9. Lets look at this:
You charge a squad of 5 TH/SS terminators. You hammer of wrath at i10. You then roll your 6 attacks, you hit on 3's and wound on 2's, they get a 3+ save. That is 1.38 dead TH/SS terminators. They have 8 attacks back. Hit on 5's, wound on 2's, you save 5+, rerolling 1's. That is 1.48 wounds before you reroll the saves of 1. Not exactly one sided. A Prince with mark of Tzeentch alone is 160 points, is that right? A squad of TH/SS guys is 200 points, right?
Obviously, you can get expensive with this dummy. You can spend 300 points on him. But at 160 points, he no more maneuverable than a TH/SS squad and fights them roughly the same. Maybe a little more (or a lot more) fragile when it comes to shooting, but he is a wrecking ball against most units.

Use your Prince smart and he can be that guy. Keep him behind cover, try to block line of sight completely to him if you can, jump him up, use your burning brand, and then get him in a position where the opponent has to deal with him... or be dealt with.

I actually had a game last week where I turn 1, 1 railgun ID'd a fully kitted out DP. The guy got so mad he started talking about how worthless they are and over costed (Because somebody apparently forced him to buy 3 Psyker levels and all the bells and whistles) He also deployed it when he was going second, not behind cover, and confused DoN with MoN and didn't realize he could be insta-killed.

Even started saying how overpowered and BS Tau are and how they need to be nerfed. Good day. Good day.

But honestly I can't see why people get so upset about these. It's a beast and seems to be fairly well priced for what it does. Yeah a railgun can kill it, if you aren't hiding behind cover. But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

What other MC get one shotted by a railgun? I can't think of any. Not Wraithlords nor Avatars, not Talos, not Dreadknights, not Tyranids, nothing in codex Daemons, no C'tan nor tomb spiders. And most of these are far, far cheaper than the CSM prince. Its a bum unit.

I'm sorry but the DP isn't a Wraithlord, an Avatar, Talos, Dreadknight, or Tyranid. It's a DP. Stop complaining about what it isn't and enjoy what it is.

It can get a 3+ coversave, move fast, and deliver some hurt. I think it's good for it's price, provided you aren't trying to give it every bit of equipment under the sun. It's already hard to hit in an enviornment with little skyfire.

Kevlar wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

What other MC get one shotted by a railgun? I can't think of any. Not Wraithlords nor Avatars, not Talos, not Dreadknights, not Tyranids, nothing in codex Daemons, no C'tan nor tomb spiders. And most of these are far, far cheaper than the CSM prince. Its a bum unit.

Tyranid Harpies can.
Edit - yes they're cheaper, but not anywhere near as capable in CC.

Kevlar wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Wish I had a new codex that I could cry about.

What other MC get one shotted by a railgun? I can't think of any. Not Wraithlords nor Avatars, not Talos, not Dreadknights, not Tyranids, nothing in codex Daemons, no C'tan nor tomb spiders. And most of these are far, far cheaper than the CSM prince. Its a bum unit.

lol Don't even compare it to a Wraithlord, the red-headed stepchild of MC's T8, 3 wounds 3+ no invul >.< buggers drop like flies

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


lol Don't even compare it to a Wraithlord, the red-headed stepchild of MC's T8, 3 wounds 3+ no invul >.< buggers drop like flies

They were pretty good back when nothing under str 5 could hurt them. Even now stick one in cover and its a decent shooting platform. Fairly cheap, more survivable than a dread to melta/lascannons, and sitting in cover it will ID a prince before it ever gets to strike.

300 point HQ model with no grenades and T5. Hahahaha.

Finish the statement...
That's a flying MC, with a boat load of I8 hits, power armor, loads of goodies, and can wreck anything from infantry to vehicles.

Try making a legitimate point next time.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Finish the statement...
That's a flying MC, with a boat load of I8 hits, power armor, loads of goodies, and can wreck anything from infantry to vehicles.

Try making a legitimate point next time.

What the hell does init 8 matter when you have no grenades and your opponent sits in cover? Especially when you have T5 and he has S10 close combat attacks?

You can complain about anything. DPs don't have an Assualt 3 Twinlinked lascannon so they suck! They don't come in squadrons and have A14, they blow!

No grenades? Charge a vehicle or something!

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You can complain about anything. DPs don't have an Assualt 3 Twinlinked lascannon so they suck! They don't come in squadrons and have A14, they blow!

No grenades? Charge a vehicle or something!

Not having grenades on an unit that pretty much has to assault to do anything is kind of a big deal. Especially when one of his selling points is his "great initiative".

I think the wings should compensate for the lack of grenades and getting around cover.

Kevlar wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You can complain about anything. DPs don't have an Assualt 3 Twinlinked lascannon so they suck! They don't come in squadrons and have A14, they blow!

No grenades? Charge a vehicle or something!

Not having grenades on an unit that pretty much has to assault to do anything is kind of a big deal. Especially when one of his selling points is his "great initiative".

Hive Tyrants seem to do well without grenades.

I know your defense is going to be "But they're T6!" But really - T5 isn't that bad. You have an invul (I said access to before, but forgot the Daemon rule gives you one) and significantly better CC. Look at any decent Tyranid list - they all have Flyrants. Partially because that's our only anti-air, but also because they're extremely effective.

rigeld2 wrote:

Hive Tyrants seem to do well without grenades.

I know your defense is going to be "But they're T6!" But really - T5 isn't that bad. You have an invul (I said access to before, but forgot the Daemon rule gives you one) and significantly better CC. Look at any decent Tyranid list - they all have Flyrants. Partially because that's our only anti-air, but also because they're extremely effective.

I'm pretty sure the two most glaring and complained about problems with the Tyranid codex is 1. Lack of grenades, and 2. No eternal warrior on their big MC.

So the CSM daemon prince embodies these traits wonderfully, with the added bonus of being instantly killed by any S10 weapons on top of regular force weapons/ID attacks. I honestly don't think I need a defense, the daemon prince being a horrible choice is readily apparent.

There is no point arguing this anymore. You are so obsessed that the DP has a drawback that you can't see the strengths. If your only complaint is that a max strength shot that gets past his flying, armor, and invul save would kill it, then maybe it isn't that bad.

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Hive Tyrants seem to do well without grenades.

I know your defense is going to be "But they're T6!" But really - T5 isn't that bad. You have an invul (I said access to before, but forgot the Daemon rule gives you one) and significantly better CC. Look at any decent Tyranid list - they all have Flyrants. Partially because that's our only anti-air, but also because they're extremely effective.

I'm pretty sure the two most glaring and complained about problems with the Tyranid codex is 1. Lack of grenades, and 2. No eternal warrior on their big MC.

So the CSM daemon prince embodies these traits wonderfully, with the added bonus of being instantly killed by any S10 weapons on top of regular force weapons/ID attacks. I honestly don't think I need a defense, the daemon prince being a horrible choice is readily apparent.

Good players have gotten over the lack of grenades and no EW. I'd love to have flesh hooks on a troop unit, but its not that big a deal.
You can live in a world where Demon Princes are useless. If you want, you can send all of yours to me since obviously you'll never use them.

rigeld2 wrote:

You can live in a world where Demon Princes are useless. If you want, you can send all of yours to me since obviously you'll never use them.

I'll still pack them in my case in case I get a good roll on the boon chart.

I love how the DP haters keeping insisting on the DP being 300 points just to make their point. You can easily run one that is less then 200 points and is quite effective.

Force weapons aren't nearly as threatening as people are making them out to be. While the DP might be more vulnerable to S10 then other MCs, he decidedly less vulnerable to force weapons and other insta death CC attacks because most hit him on a 5+, and he gets an invulnerable save, the latter putting him in a select class of MCs alongside the C'Tan, Dreadknight, and his fellow Demons.

Because most force weapons hit on a 5+, wound on a 5+, and he gets a 5++ against the wound, you're going to need a lot of force weapons before you have a reasonable chance to bring him down.


A note on Rail Guns. DS. DS. DS. Seriously, DS+Swoop is an amazing deployment option. If you get a bad scatter you can use Swoops improved run rule to correct it. Also, coming in on turn 2+ gives you two turns to neutralize those broadsides. I'm not saying you should always DS, but if the opponent has any S10 ranged weapons at all...you should strongly consider it.

Anyway, I think it's a very solid unit, it's just nothing like it was in the previous codex. Stop lamenting your loss of lash and learn how to use the new beasty, you'll be a better Chaos general if you do. Stop spending 300 points on it and starting it on the field turn one for everything to shoot at it.

I was thinking of running a nurgle prince with wings that i sit behind the aegis until it is counter assault time. 2 plus cover is no joke. Then have him counter attack once my drakes show up.

 undertow wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
18 shots from anything grounds him on average, so you shoot your worst squad at him first, ground him, he takes a wound from the fall.

I think it would be more accurate to say that 3 sets of shots from three different units will ground a FMC on average. You get one Grounding roll per unit that hits, not per hit.

18 shots from a single unit would cause exactly one grounding roll as long as at least one of them hit. It would still cause only one roll if all 18 shots hit.

My mistake, still, people are vastly overestimating it.

I'm seeing a mix of, 'well this guy is cheap and okay' in which case the counters still offset the cost, or 'this guy can kill anything with all these goodies' and it turns out to be a 300+pts HQ whose feats can be achieved by a much cheaper Lord.

See here's the main problem regarding the cost; the Prince's role in conflicted because of how much options are for him. At 180pts base (you have to take a patron and are a fool not to take armour) 40pts for wings becomes very expensive unless you actually use them enough. At this point you really want to keep your Prince flying and Burning Brand stuff. The problem here is he is now at 250pts, a lot of which is paid for the stat boosts he got that he will now rarely use (and the Heldrake is better at this). On the other hand, you can tool him for combat, and then you have the Wings dilemma; you'll hardly use them so could spend the 40pts elsewhere, or else he ends up being too slow to catch his target. So what you end up with is a beatstick Prince flying around wasting a turn or two flying while hunting his target, all the while costing near to 300pts. A single model should not cost that much unless they are just that scary. A Daemon Prince isn't, as it is super easy to counter. I'd much rather seeing a big expensive DP across the table from me than a Lord with 35 ablative wounds (which is cheaper BTW).

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I love how the DP haters keeping insisting on the DP being 300 points just to make their point. You can easily run one that is less then 200 points and is quite effective.

No, no you can't. With his Patron and Armour alone he is 180pts as I've stated above, at which point you have a mediocre slow monstrous creature. You give him Wings to speed him up or a weapon to bef him up, and you've broken the 200pts barrier. 'DP haters' keep insisting he is near 300pts because the examples given have been, and they've actually done the calculations. Besides, making good choices in this game isn't about being effective, it's about being cost effective.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I think the wings should compensate for the lack of grenades and getting around cover.

That's great, but while my unit doesn't leave the cover, how is skipping around it in circles like a big ugly fairy going to help you?

Exactly.

The one thing he might be good at, flying around with the burning brand, can be done much more cheaply with a sorcerer in a rhino. Or much more cheaply and efficiently with heldrakes and a bale flamer.

Man I wish I had a 230 point unit that required snap shots to hit, had an invul, and could torrent an AP3 weapon. And be a CC slaughterhouse at the same time.

Target unit hiding in cover? Torrent them. Out of cover? Blenderize.

Can you make him 265 and give him the Axe as well as the Brand?

Why, when you can do the same thing with a 100 point model, or much more with a 175 point model?

Kevlar wrote:
Why, when you can do the same thing with a 100 point model, or much more with a 175 point model?

There's a 100 point model with Hard to Hit, an AP3 torrent weapon, and is a CC beast?
And I wasn't aware Heldrakes could assault. Ill have to check those things out. Thanks for the tip!

What good are assault stats on a guy you want swooping and shooting an ap3 flamer? You can't do both at once so all you are doing is wasting points with your inefficiency.

A 60 pt sorcerer with the brand can sit in a unit in a rhino so yes he is extremely hard to hit. His unit will also most likely be scoring, and if he loses too many ablative wounds he can simply join a different unit.

A much more sensible HQ choice. And you can buy most of a heldrake with the points you saved.

You complained about units in cover. The template will kill models in cover. If he leaves cover the template isn't as effective, so you assault.

Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

rigeld2 wrote:Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

Living in the real world isn't exactly a choice mate. Kevlar's point isn't that units only have role, it's that when they struggle to fulfil those multiple roles as the DP does, then that's points inefficiently spent.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

Living in the real world isn't exactly a choice mate.

See, in the real world a unit having multiple choices for how it performs isn't a bad thing mate.
Options are almost always good.

You're likely the same kind of person that thinks Genestealers are worthless in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Look, like I said - you can feel free to live in a world where units only ever have one purpose and Demon Princes are bad. Ill be over here using them.

Living in the real world isn't exactly a choice mate. Kevlar's point isn't that units only have role, it's that when they struggle to fulfil those multiple roles as the DP does, then that's points inefficiently spent.

Since you edited...

Struggle? Ignoring cover with AP3 on a Hard to Hit model isn't struggling. And he's a CC beat stick so I don't see him struggling there.
To match that without using the Prince you need a HQ and a Heldrake. The points for those models (ignoring the required escort for the HQ) are amazingly close to the Prince, if not over. And it takes multiple FOC slots.

Kevlar wrote:
A 60 pt sorcerer with the brand can sit in a unit in a rhino so yes he is extremely hard to hit..

REALLY!? A rhino is hard to hit but a DP is easy pickings? You do realize that the RAILGUN!!!!, which you have brought up time and again, autoglances and pens on a 2+ with a 50% of exploding a Rhino? And that it won't need 6's to hit. And that markerlights won't need 6's to hit it and remove cover?

Are you being serious right now?!

And since you're such a fan of the Tau being your example, the expensive marine unit he is with for the sole purpose of soaking up wounds will be getting mulched by Tau firepower, which again doesn't require 6's to hit before they get a chance at an armor save.

Its going to take a lot more shooting to kill a sorcerer in a rhino in a squad of 10 marines, who can always jump over to another squad of 10 marines, than it will to kill a daemon prince.

Unless you are really bad at math that should be fairly obvious.

No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
A 60 pt sorcerer with the brand can sit in a unit in a rhino so yes he is extremely hard to hit..

REALLY!? A rhino is hard to hit but a DP is easy pickings?

Now go read his post properly. Specifically the part where he says the Sorcerer inside the Rhino is hard to hit, not the Rhino itself (a hint: you can't shoot at the Sorcerer when he is inside the Rhino at all).

 Savageconvoy wrote:
No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

I wish calling people idiots wasn't frowned upon on forums, because really, this takes the biscuit.

Basically your argument is that a character will shoot into the Rhino and Precision Shot the Sorcerer inside, that the Sorcerer will fail his 1/6 chance of LOS all the time, and that that character will magically have a Railgun (in case you weren't aware, only a single character in the game can get a Railgun), and that the Chaos player was stupid enough to not give him an invul. or that they fail it every single time (that seems to be your favourite after all).

Seriously, whereas I still will never call the DP anywhere near a competitive choice, at least some people are making the effort to present it so, but the levels of ridiculous fanboyism is certainly growing around here, with the president of the fan club leading the charge above.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

I wish calling people idiots wasn't frowned upon on forums, because really, this takes the biscuit.

Basically your argument is that a character will shoot into the Rhino and Precision Shot the Sorcerer inside, that the Sorcerer will fail his 1/6 chance of LOS all the time, and that that character will magically have a Railgun (in case you weren't aware, only a single character in the game can get a Railgun), and that the Chaos player was stupid enough to not give him an invul. or that they fail it every single time (that seems to be your favourite after all).

Seriously, whereas I still will never call the DP anywhere near a competitive choice, at least some people are making the effort to present it so, but the levels of ridiculous fanboyism is certainly growing around here, with the president of the fan club leading the charge above.

Please tell me you took all that sarcasm literally.

Besides why'd he need a railgun when a Str8 shot will do it justice ^^

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Besides why'd he need a railgun when a Str8 shot will do it justice ^^

Well, it could be a nurgle sorc.

Kevlar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Besides why'd he need a railgun when a Str8 shot will do it justice ^^

Well, it could be a nurgle sorc.

Touche, let me break out my Force Krak missile ^^

I seriously think that it's much better to go Black Mace than Burning Brand.

I mean, the mace will generally instasplat entire squads of terminators with a normal attack roll. It's amazingly powerful. And if you can duel on your turn, and kill the rest of the squad next turn, with very little risk to you. Smart opponents will simply refuse the duel and sacrifice the squad simply so they can expose him next turn, but even then you have a good chance of survival. The only issue is to get that first charge off without getting gibbed. Given that you move 12" even without Flying, you really should not have too much problems getting behind terrain at first turn, then assasinate their most expensive unit next turn.

Also, with I8, there is almost noone that will get to use a force weapon on your prince, except possibly Grey Knights, due to the sheer amount of bodies. Swarmlord will die with 6+d6 attacks, and even the head GK Kaldor himself will most likely die before he gets to counter attack.

I think people complain because they are trying to use the DP as before, a vehicle killer and bullet sponge. Instead he's a 250 killing machine that will eradicate almost ANY IC and deathstar in the game with little trouble, but is a melee glass cannon.

DrDuckman wrote:

I think people complain because they are trying to use the DP as before, a vehicle killer and bullet sponge. Instead he's a 250 killing machine that will eradicate almost ANY IC and deathstar in the game with little trouble, but is a melee glass cannon.

You mean any that decide to stand out in the open? Assaulting through cover that I8 turns into I1.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Now go read his post properly. Specifically the part where he says the Sorcerer inside the Rhino is hard to hit, not the Rhino itself (a hint: you can't shoot at the Sorcerer when he is inside the Rhino at all)!

Yeah I read the whole thing. And the rhino isn't a convincing argument. It's likely to get exploded and deal out more wounds to the unit and has the potential to pin the unit. Then I can shot the crap out of him.

And saying the Sorceror can take an invul save is kinda ironic, since I was trying to point out the DP is FLYING, can get a 3+ cover easy, and has a BUILT IN invul save from being a demon. He is also fearless and can't be pinned, so better than the rhino riders in that regard.

Oh and a single character can get a railgun? Tell that to the three Broadside team leaders.

And am literally fuming with butthurt at how you so proudly and confidently you just steamrolled over the subtlety of my comment. Ignoring the fact that everything I said was simply a mimicry of the other side. Amazing. I am simply stunned.

And how am I the biggest fan boy? I'm not trying to say its an instant take. I'm trying to say its not worthless. So I guess that makes me the CSM fan club president?!

The fact that you're on the other side of the argument just makes me happy of the side I picked.


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Kevlar wrote:

You mean any that decide to stand out in the open? Assaulting through cover that I8 turns into I1.

When does I matter when smashing open a vehicle? You act like EVERY CC EVER is done over cover. There are ways around that. But frankly, you're a one trick pony. You have just two arguments that you keep repeating and never drop. You're just too stubborn to try and see differently.

Kevlar wrote:

DrDuckman wrote:

I think people complain because they are trying to use the DP as before, a vehicle killer and bullet sponge. Instead he's a 250 killing machine that will eradicate almost ANY IC and deathstar in the game with little trouble, but is a melee glass cannon.

You mean any that decide to stand out in the open? Assaulting through cover that I8 turns into I1.

Given that around 75% of the table is guaranteed to not be in cover there's a good chance of that.

They have to leave cover to come get your objectives. It's possible that some units will *gasp* not roll well and not even make it in to cover!
You've been spoiled by grenades. Learn to live without them.

Pin the unit first, you strike at initiative.
Charge an already locked unit, you strike at initiative.

But my points are irrelevant, I keep forgetting.
Your turn, bring up the T5.

I feel that a sorc inside a rhino with the brand ends up being a big waste of points at times because much like the DP, it's a unit of models, attempting to perform multiple roles, and end up doing them subparly due to total cost. If you argue the sorc in a rhino, I think you need to add in more then the cost of the sorc in the arguement as well, add in the rhino and at least the 5man squad of CSM you call out as bodyguard. What does that add up to (Since i'm at work i don't hav my book). With him being lvl 2 with the brand and no mark, the total end up being ~240pts I think. oddly enough thats the a same amount as a DP with flying brand mark and armor. I'll make a comparison between the two setups on my next break. But so far it looks kind of weak in the sorc direction.

With a mark its exactly 240 points for the whole unit

Coyote81 wrote:
I feel that a sorc inside a rhino with the brand ends up being a big waste of points at times because much like the DP, it's a unit of models, attempting to perform multiple roles, and end up doing them subparly due to total cost.

I agree, if you want to burn things, use a Heldrake to do the job instead.

Savageconvoy wrote:And saying the Sorceror can take an invul save is kinda ironic, since I was trying to point out the DP is FLYING, can get a 3+ cover easy, and has a BUILT IN invul save from being a demon. He is also fearless and can't be pinned, so better than the rhino riders in that regard.

There's no irony at all actually, because you left out the likely possibility of an invul. in your example, Kevlar on the other hand made no such assumption about flying etc.

Savageconvoy wrote:Oh and a single character can get a railgun? Tell that to the three Broadside team leaders.

Broadside Team Leader, the only character in the game who can get a Railgun. Thus only a single character in the game can get a Railgun. Work on your English.

Savageconvoy wrote:And how am I the biggest fan boy? I'm not trying to say its an instant take. I'm trying to say its not worthless. So I guess that makes me the CSM fan club president?!

Because for someone that claims not to be offing it as an auto-take, you are using wild speculation and ignorance of maths and probabilities on top of strawman comments to try and win your argument. Those are desparation moves, something you don't use when you don't care so much. There's nothing wrong with being a DP fanboy, not at all, they are cool and bad ass in concept, just don't try to pawn that off as a valid argument as to why they are a competitive choice.

Savageconvoy wrote:The fact that you're on the other side of the argument just makes me happy of the side I picked.

Random personal comment does nothing to help your argument, and only makes you look worse. It also makes it look like you have no conviction in your own argument.

Savageconvoy wrote:When does I matter when smashing open a vehicle? You act like EVERY CC EVER is done over cover. There are ways around that. But frankly, you're a one trick pony. You have just two arguments that you keep repeating and never drop. You're just too stubborn to try and see differently.

If you want to take a DP who will only smash open a few Rhinos, work away, see if any opponent cares that you spent 250+pts to do some a regular squad could do. And no, theres no way around the terrain issue. 40k is a shooty game now, and most good players play shooty armies. A quality of being a good player just happens to be being good at the game (it's in the name). Such players will stand their units in terrain and shoot at your DP rather than let it assault them in open ground, because they know what will happen to most of them if they do. And there's nothing you can do about it. Kevlar and others have made several other perfect points, this is just the one you are latching onto, because you think you have a way around it. But like I said, you don't. If you opponent stands his units in cover there is literally not a single thing you can do about. You can try and kill them by other means, but you could do that in the open too, and that's not really about the DP is it?

As a tip of debating a point, if someone is making the same point over and over, it is usually because you have yet to prove them wrong. You have stated multiple times now you have a way to avoid charging through cover if the enemy has all his units in cover, but you have yet to say what it is. So if you want to legitimise your argument, actually make one.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
As a tip of debating a point, if someone is making the same point over and over, it is usually because you have yet to prove them wrong. You have stated multiple times now you have a way to avoid charging through cover if the enemy has all his units in cover, but you have yet to say what it is. So if you want to legitimise your argument, actually make one.

rigeld2 wrote:
They have to leave cover to come get your objectives. It's possible that some units will *gasp* not roll well and not even make it in to cover!
You've been spoiled by grenades. Learn to live without them.

Pin the unit first, you strike at initiative.
Charge an already locked unit, you strike at initiative.

But my points are irrelevant, I keep forgetting.
Your turn, bring up the T5.

Coyote81 wrote:
I feel that a sorc inside a rhino with the brand ends up being a big waste of points at times because much like the DP, it's a unit of models, attempting to perform multiple roles, and end up doing them subparly due to total cost. If you argue the sorc in a rhino, I think you need to add in more then the cost of the sorc in the arguement as well, add in the rhino and at least the 5man squad of CSM you call out as bodyguard. What does that add up to (Since i'm at work i don't hav my book). With him being lvl 2 with the brand and no mark, the total end up being ~240pts I think. oddly enough thats the a same amount as a DP with flying brand mark and armor. I'll make a comparison between the two setups on my next break. But so far it looks kind of weak in the sorc direction.

But unlike the DP, the unit of troops in the rhino performs the same role as the sorcerer. You aren't adding in an extra unit to help the sorcerer, you already have troop units in rhinos, or at least you should. All the sorcerer does is give them some added psyker support and an extra weapon to shoot. They are never performing different roles.

If you were putting the sorcerer with the torrent flamer in an assault squad then that would be the same thing as running the daemon prince. It would also be kind of dumb, just like running a prince.

Use the helldrake? Why not both? Why are you and Kevlar thinking that its always an either-or choice. Different FOC and neither options are really overpriced.

I didn't mention an invul save, because the example was a poor one. If he wanted to include an invul save on the sorc then he should have stated that. But again, that's just adding to the units point cost. And now you have a very large non flying target. Good job, I'm sure a unit of marines in a rhino has proven how indestructible they are in 6th already.

Single- as in one. I said I can bring three. I'm not sure what your point is. Trying to prove that only one FOC selection can take Railguns?

Next I'm having a real hard time trying to talk to you as an adult. You wanted to call me an idiot and a fan boy because you didn't understand a sarcastic comment. Then you get on me for personal comments and straw men?! Are you Fething serious? South Park put it best, "if irony were strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now."

And now apparently vehicles = rhinos now. Good to know!

And Kevlar hasn't made any good points. He had made three that haven't really stood up, but refuses to let go.

T5 can be insta killed. Answer: it's a flyer with good cover and an invul save. It's a drawback to a beat stick. Otherwise it'd probably be overpowered and an instant pick.

Assualt in cover has already been addressed by rigeld2 and again ignored by Kevlar.

And the only other argument is that the Sorc with the brand is better. But my argument is to take a cheaper prince with the mace and why not take the Sorc too. Proving that one unit is better doesn't make the other unit "worthless"

Mimicry save yourself, you just flailing now. Your only argument is that he can be ID'd by a S10 wpn. So can 90% of things in the game. This shot to Instant Death claim only works if the DP decidees to stand still in the open & he fails his invul. If the DP goes unsupported, in the open he & any other HQ choice would be blasted to bits by a Hvy Sprt choice.

You'd be right in a total vacum. With fire support from Oblits or havocs & minimal use of cover or DSing the DP is gonna put some hurt on anyone.

 RedAngel wrote:
Mimicry save yourself, you just flailing now. Your only argument is that he can be ID'd by a S10 wpn.

Some advice for you; either read posts properly in future or just don't make up stuff, it will save you some embarassment. You claim my only argument is that he is ID'ed by S10; not once have I made that point. What I have done is present several other arguments, none of which have anything to do with S10 ID. So if your only way of trying to make an argument is to make stuff up, don't bother posting next time. This thread is really turning into a collosal joke what with the abundance of straws so many pro-DP posters are failing to grasp.

Wow. Ran a tzeentch prince today with wings, armor and gift. Played Grey Knights. Rolled multiple boons (64?), then rolled plus one to armor save, adamantium will, flesh bane and my attacks cause instant death. So2plus armor and Tzeentch is incredible.
Flew up the flank, rolled up a squad of GK terminators and 2 psyfile dreads before we called the game. Unreal how good it went.
I know its one game, but I'm sold. He has a place in my army.
My opponent was always astonished by his stats. "I8?!" "5attacks base?!" "I'm hitting on 5.s?"

 Brymm wrote:
Wow. Ran a tzeentch prince today with wings, armor and gift. Played Grey Knights. Rolled multiple boons (64?), then rolled plus one to armor save, adamantium will, flesh bane and my attacks cause instant death. So2plus armor and Tzeentch is incredible.
Flew up the flank, rolled up a squad of GK terminators and 2 psyfile dreads before we called the game. Unreal how good it went.
I know its one game, but I'm sold. He has a place in my army.
My opponent was always astonished by his stats. "I8?!" "5attacks base?!" "I'm hitting on 5.s?"

Amazing how well a WORTHLESS unit can be.

Glad to hear you did well. Hearing a GK player get stomped by Chaos always does my heart good.

I don't really care about what some guy did to some eight year old kid at a LGS. Lets see someone place in a tournament with a 300 point boat anchor in their list.

Regardless of who the players were, which is BS to dismiss Brymm off like that, the fact that a single model, which you claim is garbage, managed to wreck a top tier army by itself.

Why don't you try arguing what's been brought up instead of just waving it off. Infact, because you just waved Brymm off, I want a reason to why anyone should give a fudge about what you have to say.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But did you know that most things fall to railguns? Did you know that Tau like saving Railguns for important things. If a DP is tying up railguns, then that means all the mech gets a free pass that turn.

Savageconvoy wrote:I'm sorry but the DP isn't a Wraithlord, an Avatar, Talos, Dreadknight, or Tyranid. It's a DP. Stop complaining about what it isn't and enjoy what it is.

I like how he goes from: "Compare the DP to these other guys! He's just the same and shouldn't get special treatment!" all the way to "Stop comparing the DP to others MCs!" in what, 2 posts?

Also, you need only one railgun shot to ID a prince, so he's not 'tying up' that much. You can easily force him down with lesser shots and punk him with the first railgun the moment he hits the ground. It's really easy.

As for 'enjoying what it is'...it's not that easy to enjoy a really subpar flyer. He may be able to do well against some woefully unprepared armies, but if that's your thing you might want to go Cosmo Kramer and go fight MMA with some 9-year-olds.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RedAngel wrote:
Mimicry save yourself, you just flailing now. Your only argument is that he can be ID'd by a S10 wpn. So can 90% of things in the game. This shot to Instant Death claim only works if the DP decidees to stand still in the open & he fails his invul. If the DP goes unsupported, in the open he & any other HQ choice would be blasted to bits by a Hvy Sprt choice.

You'd be right in a total vacum. With fire support from Oblits or havocs & minimal use of cover or DSing the DP is gonna put some hurt on anyone.

That's not what he said. At all.

Newsflash: The DP will always be in the open several times during the game. If swooping, he will be out in the open and taking grounding tests when hit.

The 90% of the things in the game that can be IDed by an S10 shot usually get to ride in transports, hide in units and make LoS rolls. They ar also way cheaper.

The DP's invulnerable save is 5+. It cannot be changed. That's too poor to rely on.

Deep-Striking the DP sounds like...sheer insanity. He won't get to attack (in fact, he'll be sitting out in the open like you said he would never do), will be risking a bad scatter, cannot be guided in his arrival and will be in perfect range for enemy Rapid Fire plasma, meltaguns, etc. He may be able to toss some psyker powers if you bought them and rolled lucky, but it'll be a short career.

Can we say that the DP, in a vacuum by himself without support, is dead meat.

Of course, this is a game with multiple components and strategies. You can probably get the DP into a list and make it functionally viable.

It makes this debate a lot easier to state "The DP with wings has a niche roll like most other units; you just have to find the right one for him."

 Savageconvoy wrote:
No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

/endthread !! This post is quit, You iz the weenr!

 Sephyr wrote:


I like how he goes from: "Compare the DP to these other guys! He's just the same and shouldn't get special treatment!" all the way to "Stop comparing the DP to others MCs!" in what, 2 posts?

Also, you need only one railgun shot to ID a prince, so he's not 'tying up' that much. You can easily force him down with lesser shots and punk him with the first railgun the moment he hits the ground. It's really easy.

As for 'enjoying what it is'...it's not that easy to enjoy a really subpar flyer. He may be able to do well against some woefully unprepared armies, but if that's your thing you might want to go Cosmo Kramer and go fight MMA with some 9-year-olds.

TIL that apparently saying how good railguns are is the equivalent of saying all MC are the same.
But what I was referring to when I said it wasn't like the others, is that its a new edition. They seem to be going a different direction with how MC are handled, at least the FMC. Lets face it, if it had EW this would most likely be an auto take and probably game breaking IMO. But since its vulnerable it somehow becomes useless. Apparently people can't hide a MC at all anymore. So it will apparently never get its cover saves!
It can get good war gear and options, the boon table can make it insane as already mentioned, and its in a fairly balanced codex.
It's not like the other MC because those are balanced for an older edition (though sometimes loosely)

And what's with so many people saying that if you lose to this thing then you're obviously a horrible player and/or child?!

I never tought giving him a gift... great idea!

Also thank you everyone for all the arguments to prove that the DP is worthless... Next time I wreak havoc in my opponent line I will get to say... but you can insta-kill him with a S10 weapon! Put enough small arm fire on him and he will crash to the ground and you can nail him down easily! What? You have no railgun? It would be soooo easy to kill him if you were playing Tau! Imagine! I could have taken a Sorcerer with the Brand in a rhino! THAT is overpowered! The DP is only a glass melee cannon... yeah I know... sorry about that WS9, I8, A6 on the charge... that's just average you know...

In the end it's all a matter of choice. You decide to run a DP in your army or you don't. He's a great second HQ choice and he's got a place in my army right next to my new Heldrake and my 2 Maulerfiends... now please target my DP and leave my Maulerfiends alone! C'mon he's easy to kill!

Can a Sorceror use his psychic powers if he's shooting with the brand? I'm kinda unfamiliar with psykers.

I also would like to note, that the brand has a very short range for a unit you are attempting to keep away from the enemy hiding in a big spikey box.

I also should have asked how much it costs to give the wraith lord and other MCs wings. Is it relatively cheaper to run those flying MC? I tried looking up how much their wings cost, but its not listed anywhere. It's almost like the DP is only one of a few FMC right now. Odd. It's almost as if it trades its invulnerability with extreme maneuverability.

And Proxy, I'm sorry to hear that you apparently only play against a bunch of children, since they are the only ones that lose to the DP.

On a serious note, I really want to know how a DP and 2 Maulerfiends do. I'm curious about running one Maulerfiend with the tendrils as an ally unit with my tau. At least until someone tries telling me how useless they are because another unit in another FOC does it marginally better and making the mauler COMPLETELY useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And and Proxy, you forgot that you will be assaulting through cover 100% of the time. Like forever. Because nobody moves units forward anymore.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Can a Sorceror use his psychic powers if he's shooting with the brand? I'm kinda unfamiliar with psykers.

I also would like to note, that the brand has a very short range for a unit you are attempting to keep away from the enemy hiding in a big spikey box.

I also should have asked how much it costs to give the wraith lord and other MCs wings. Is it relatively cheaper to run those flying MC? I tried looking up how much their wings cost, but its not listed anywhere. It's almost like the DP is only one of a few FMC right now. Odd. It's almost as if it trades its invulnerability with extreme maneuverability.

And Proxy, I'm sorry to hear that you apparently only play against a bunch of children, since they are the only ones that lose to the DP.

On a serious note, I really want to know how a DP and 2 Maulerfiends do. I'm curious about running one Maulerfiend with the tendrils as an ally unit with my tau. At least until someone tries telling me how useless they are because another unit in another FOC does it marginally better and making the mauler COMPLETELY useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And and Proxy, you forgot that you will be assaulting through cover 100% of the time. Like forever. Because nobody moves units forward anymore.

If you choose to use a shooting psychic power in the shooting phase you can't shoot with anything else in that phase. The Burning Brand of Skalathrax is not a psychic power, it's an artefact so you use it like a weapon. A Sorcerer could not use a witchfire or a focused witchfire psychic power in the same phase.

As for wings on other MC's I run a flying Tyrant in my Tyranid army and the wings cost 60 pts... the wings on the DP seem cheap in comparison.

Hehe, your comment on how I play against a bunch of children made me laugh ... you made my morning thx . And yeah I never ever charge units that are already in close combat or from... let's say... the back! Yeah, that manoeuvrability is just a joke . And why charge in cover when you have a torrent template that ignore cover? Hhhhmmm not sure...

The DP and the Maulerfiends do really great together. The DP versatility balance the ultra specialisation of the Maulerfiends. I usually don't take my DP out of cover until turn 2... the Maulerfiends are the ones who charge for the opponent line. Since I run 5 troops with 3 of them in rhinos I protect my Maulerfiends with cover or with the rhinos. They are really fast with their 12" movement and if they get a charge on turn 2 my opponent generally lose 2 vehicles.

The Maulerfiend is a specialist, you must choose visely who you want to charge with it. Vehicles are gonners in a turn, infantry with no power fist are good targets too. Do not charge MC's or high toughness/multi-wounds models tho, they do not have enough attack to kill those on the charge. Heavy weapon squads are a good target too... yes overwatch can kill you, but if you get them in cc... they're gone.

So the DP is an infantry killer and the Maulerfiend is a tank/light infantry killer. I really don't see who in the FOC can do that job better than the Maulerfiend... just it's speed is unreal... you ignore cover even on a charge...

Last time I used them I kept them both in reserve because my opponent had 2 Monoliths in deep strike reserve... he got first turn... deep striked in my lines on turn 2... I got my Maulerfiend from reserve on my second turn too and put them somewhere safe for a turn... on turn 3 the 2 monolith where wrecked... the turn after 2 squads of Necron Warriors sitting on 2 objectives were gone... they are that good.

Good to hear. I figured those things would be real beasts, no pun intended. Did you run magma cutters or lash tendrils?

First game I played with a Maulerfiend I fielded only one and I lost it on a carnifex... they are real beasts but they are still walkers with AV12. Hide them and choose your prey carefully or you will lose them.

I run them with the magam cutters. Put lasher tendrils on it only if you want to specialise it as an infantry killer. Since I have enough infantry killers in my army and almost no long range heavy support, it's my Maulerfiends that do the vehicle bashing. Lasher tendrils are good, but the magma cutters are great, that S8, AP1, armourbane free hit (or 2 hits if you hit with your 4 attacks) are great to have against anything.

 WarOne wrote:
Can we say that the DP, in a vacuum by himself without support, is dead meat.

Of course, this is a game with multiple components and strategies. You can probably get the DP into a list and make it functionally viable.

It makes this debate a lot easier to state "The DP with wings has a niche roll like most other units; you just have to find the right one for him."

This.

It would make sense to me if you could wave him off saying that there wasn't a role for him, he was overcosted, easy to kill and he was bad. But this is just not the case. Some things that detractors bring up are true (he is expensive, he can be instant deathed by S10), but those things don't rule him out as a viable unit.
Why not look at it this way: Does he excel at what he's supposed to do? Well, what is he supposed to do? Kill units in close combat. Then, yes, he does excel at that. He kills just about everything in close combat. Should I charge him at a unit of 10 TH/SS guys? Probably not, but what should? If your opponent doesn't have some sort of deathstar like that, can I expect my DP to wipe my opponents army if he doesn't shoot him down? Yes I can.
I've done it.
I have a reasonble expectation now that if I use my DP correctly against most lists, he can be the game winner for me. The list I just played did run a 10 man Grey Knights terminator squad, 3 psyfilemen and strike squads. I think it was a good list played by a good player. He knew what the Prince could do and unlucky for him, I rolled some sick boons. He couldn't take him down and it took him down instead.
I suggest this: play a few games with one. Challenge yourself to use him in the best way possible. Follow what the rule book tells you: "The Warlord is YOU on the battlefield." Don't be stupid, use cover, be patient and bring some pain. I PROMISE you will have fun doing it and I assure you that you will amass skulls for the SKULL THRONE! (if that is your thing!)

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

and lash whips do what?? Init 1? Great!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Man I wish I had a 230 point unit that required snap shots to hit, had an invul, and could torrent an AP3 weapon. And be a CC slaughterhouse at the same time.

Target unit hiding in cover? Torrent them. Out of cover? Blenderize.

Can you make him 265 and give him the Axe as well as the Brand?

but its a one per army Str4 flamer.

Chaos can as many Str6 Ap3 torrent flamers they want, that also need snapshots to hit and get VS at Str7.

The brand is best on a bikelord, and you can only have one.

 Exergy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

and lash whips do what?? Init 1? Great!

That would be relevant if the Tyrant example I've been using didn't trade in the LW/BS for some Devourers.

Chaos can as many Str6 Ap3 torrent flamers they want, that also need snapshots to hit and get VS at Str7.

If by "as many as they want" you mean 3 then sure. Dont forget the limited arc of fire on those helldrakes - they arent 360 like the Prince. And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

The brand is best on a bikelord, and you can only have one.

A model that's far easier to kill?

A lord on a bike is easy to kill now too?

Poor CSM with all these fragile units.

How do you guys think it stacks up against the deamon princes of old? is it worth the points or would you keep it at 5th ed version?

rigeld2 wrote:And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

You can, but the big secret is thguy who said there's no such thing as overkill was lying.

rigeld2 wrote:

The brand is best on a bikelord, and you can only have one.

A model that's far easier to kill?

That depends at how you look at it. Running solo or in combat the Bike Lord is slightly easier to kill because of lower WS and 1 less wound, but it also depends on how he is tooled and what he is facing. The first problem is though that 40k is a shooty game with plenty of capable players, so the chances of him running solo are slim, so targetting him in his unit is harder than it is to do to the Prince. Then of course you can argue the Prince can fly to make him harder to hit. The real issue here is the Lord costs ~100pts less than the Prince and is a supporting beatstick rather than something that is relied on all by itself. Too many people look at the situation in terms of raw killing power and plain resilience (which isn't spectacular in either case when you get to the big picture), but this is not a good way to look at what's viable in 40k, as it leaves out more important factors, such as overall army composition and synergy, the meta, and most importantly points efficiency; simply if the Prince costs twice as much as the Lord, then he should be dishing out twice as much punishment, should be twice as resilient, and should lend twice as much support to the army, and if he doesn't do that then the Lord is the better choice. Obviously a Prince won't be twice as much as a Lord, but that's just an arbitrary figure for an example.

This is all too often backed up by anecdotal claims such as 'my Prince killed 600pts of Marines' which just as often is missing the part about the opponent being new to the game, having a crappy list, and/or having crap dice. Unfortunately at this early stage it is this versus statistics, which many people believe are a circus trick, so really is this debate worth having until a few months from now when tournament results will show the good Chaos chocies?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

You can, but the big secret is thguy who said there's no such thing as overkill was lying.

It'd be overkill if they were all forced to target the same unit. Are they?

Unfortunately at this early stage it is this versus statistics, which many people believe are a circus trick, so really is this debate worth having until a few months from now when tournament results will show the good Chaos chocies?

If tournament results were the only way to determine if models are good Biovores would be worthless, SoB would be stronger than IG, and there'd be no such thing as an anti-meta list.

It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

You can, but the big secret is thguy who said there's no such thing as overkill was lying.

It'd be overkill if they were all forced to target the same unit. Are they?

Unfortunately at this early stage it is this versus statistics, which many people believe are a circus trick, so really is this debate worth having until a few months from now when tournament results will show the good Chaos chocies?

If tournament results were the only way to determine if models are good Biovores would be worthless, SoB would be stronger than IG, and there'd be no such thing as an anti-meta list.

It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

I'm not sure where your getting your tournament results, because SoB are still near the bottom in tournament tier lists when it comes to victories.

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/08/09/40k-tournament-golden-throne-gt-results/

Nowhere special.

With regards to the grounded tests, the way I read it is if the unit "hits" the FMC, so one test is taken, like a pinning test.

Not one test per hit....
Thoughts?

That's how it works - one test per unit that hits.

rigeld2 wrote:It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

Actually tournaments don't decide good units at all, they show them off. Tournament players use good units and stop using bad ones, so over time looking at results and the lists that achieved them shows what units are performing and which ones aren't. Plus they provide solid information that can be compared to other solid information, rather than every poster giving their own bias anecdotal evidence. By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

Arleucs wrote:
Tried an overexpensive DP:
- MoS (for fleet)
- wings
- power amour
- lvl 3
- spell familiar
- black mace.

rolled biomancy: iron arm+endurance (yay).

Turn 2, charged a squad, killed it (8 out of 10 assault marines, +3 from a nearby squad). the remaning 2 escaped (rolled 1 to chase, opponent rolled 6 ....this ended up killing the DP since he was no longer locked in combat).

Above is probably the best loadout if you can afford it, Difficult to fit this into anything less than1850 and then still becomes a squeeze
75 points for the slim chance of Iron Arm/Endurance or Warp Speed is hard to swallow, considering you only get 2 rolls it doesn't seem worth it.
Even with these powers your DP died way before he earnt his points back. The rest of your army probably sucked because you didnt have any points left lol.

A lesser version to consider is:
- MoN (for shrouding, Keep him in cover in turn 1 and in swoop mode and aim for a 3+ cover save including the shrouding)
- wings
- black mace. (Its AP2 and causes crazy tougness tests that cause ID? errrm yes please always).

Concerning your experience above, you have to think about keeping him in the fight, You do not want your DP coming out of combat in your turn.
To aid you with this it might be a better idea to issue a challenge, once you win it you'll be in combat with the remaining squad in his turn, if you can clear up then you have your turn to get him back into combat again or in swoop mode and/or in cover.

This guy will either die to a couple of bolters or sweep through half an army.

Won't MoN gives him Slow and P, so he cant run or sweep. He will win his first round of cc and then be standing by himself waiting to be shot.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

My name isn't Joe!

Also, the only way you'll ever know if something is competitive is through experience. You can use the experience of others if you like, but where is the fun in that? Try a unit out in your army, if you like it and had fun, then whamo. If you didn't like it and didn't have fun, then whamo. This is the tactics forum and people are looking to how to use the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch as best that they can. Lots of people are offering up great advice and some people are offering constructive criticisim on why that advice may not be so good.
The point that Daemon Princes are expensive has been beaten to death 11 times. We got it. The point that he can be killed a little easier than he should has also been beaten to death. Lets start looking at more way we can use this guy if we choose to. That isn't so hard is it?
Why can't we all just get along!?

 Brymm wrote:
Why can't we all just get along!?

Because the picture of the Warrior inspires a feeling of rage inside the hearts and bodies of men! ARGH! I'm coming for you Hulk Hogan!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

Actually tournaments don't decide good units at all, they show them off. Tournament players use good units and stop using bad ones, so over time looking at results and the lists that achieved them shows what units are performing and which ones aren't. Plus they provide solid information that can be compared to other solid information, rather than every poster giving their own bias anecdotal evidence. By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

So every tournament list is identical? They must be if all tournament players get rid of bad units and only take good ones.
Yes, there are truly bad units. Pyrovores for example.
Demon Princes aren't anywhere near there. They have definite uses. You're free to ignore them and live in a world where everything is IDed all the time.
I'll be in the real world where S10 weapons don't grow on trees.

rigeld2 wrote:So every tournament list is identical? They must be if all tournament players get rid of bad units and only take good ones.
Yes, there are truly bad units. Pyrovores for example.
Demon Princes aren't anywhere near there. They have definite uses. You're free to ignore them and live in a world where everything is IDed all the time.
I'll be in the real world where S10 weapons don't grow on trees.

Do you want to quote where I said all tournament lists are the same? You are skewing things to try make a point here; tournament players knocking out the bad units from their lists would only result in them all having the same lists if the remaining good options were only a few, which is hardly ever the case.

Next up, do you want to quote where I said that they are only bad because they are ID'ed by S10? You are the second person to imply I have said that, even though I have yet to make that point, as I don't see that alone as a reason not to take it, and I have made plenty of other points as to why a DP isn't competitive but you are choosing to ignore them and instead lay claims on me that I never made. Another one; where did I say everything is ID'ed all the time? Maybe before you start talking about the real world, you should stop using phantom posts as fuel for your obviously weakening argument; the hyperbole is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

 Brymm wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

My name isn't Joe!

Also, the only way you'll ever know if something is competitive is through experience. You can use the experience of others if you like, but where is the fun in that? Try a unit out in your army, if you like it and had fun, then whamo. If you didn't like it and didn't have fun, then whamo. This is the tactics forum and people are looking to how to use the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch as best that they can. Lots of people are offering up great advice and some people are offering constructive criticisim on why that advice may not be so good.
The point that Daemon Princes are expensive has been beaten to death 11 times. We got it. The point that he can be killed a little easier than he should has also been beaten to death. Lets start looking at more way we can use this guy if we choose to. That isn't so hard is it?
Why can't we all just get along!?

You might want to look up the meaning of discussion; it certainly doesn't mean for everyone to arbitrarily agree and be happy over everything. Part of discussing tactics and strategy is determining what's good and what isn't. If you don't want to debate about whether the Daemon Prince is good or bad, then stop responding to posts like mine arguing the point. The thread is for everyone, not just those who are fans of the unit in question.

Then again, why bother posting when all people do is tell you you said things you didn't and whine that you aren't shooting rainbows out of your ass? Seems like a waste of time, so I may take your advice and not bother arguing the point anymore.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So every tournament list is identical? They must be if all tournament players get rid of bad units and only take good ones.
Yes, there are truly bad units. Pyrovores for example.
Demon Princes aren't anywhere near there. They have definite uses. You're free to ignore them and live in a world where everything is IDed all the time.
I'll be in the real world where S10 weapons don't grow on trees.

Do you want to quote where I said all tournament lists are the same? You are skewing things to try make a point here; tournament players knocking out the bad units from their lists would only result in them all having the same lists if the remaining good options were only a few, which is hardly ever the case.

You haven't outright stated it but you've absolutely implied it. You've argued that cost efficiency is absolute and that tournament lists will be tuned to the peak of such efficiency.

Maybe before you start talking about the real world, you should stop using phantom posts as fuel for your obviously weakening argument; the hyperbole is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

I apologize - I had you and Kevlar mixed up in my head. I shouldn't have.

You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

I can agree that Demon Princes aren't a no brainer include - I don't think I've ever said they were. Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

rigeld2 wrote:


You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

I can agree that Demon Princes aren't a no brainer include - I don't think I've ever said they were. Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

Its apparent you are not familiar with statistics. I suggest you look up the term outlier.

Kevlar wrote:
Its apparent you are not familiar with statistics. I suggest you look up the term outlier.

It's apparent that you don't understand the point I was making. Thanks for participating.

For every IG placing, there is a SOB placing above that. So point still stands.

rigeld2 wrote:You haven't outright stated it but you've absolutely implied it.

No I haven't, and for the record, when the first poster accused me of such also, I double checked all my posts in this thread just to be sure.

rigeld2 wrote:You've argued that cost efficiency is absolute and that tournament lists will be tuned to the peak of such efficiency.

Because that is the truth and always has been. Not being cost efficient doesn't make something a bad choice, but it means it isn't the competitive choice. There is a difference that I think many people don't see here. For the record also, when I say tournament player, I refer to competitive tournament player, not the player that goes to them with a sub-optimal list just to have a bit of fun.

rigeld2 wrote:You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

You have a bad habit for this don't you? That also wasn't me you had that conversation with, I believe it was ZebioLizard. I never said anything about Sisters of Battle ever. I know it is a mistake you are making, but it is rather annoying.

rigeld2 wrote:Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

I never used the word uselss I believe, and I clarified in my last post (and further above) that I don't think he is bad, just he isn't competitive.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Its apparent you are not familiar with statistics. I suggest you look up the term outlier.

It's apparent that you don't understand the point I was making. Thanks for participating.

Actually I reckon he does. From my understanding his point is that you are using one single tournament to skew a point made that collective results of many tournaments over time show what is working and what isn't. In other words, he is pointing out more hyperbole. And I can't blame him, as so many of your points revolve around taking a few words out of a sentence, out of context, and blowing them out of proportion into something the original poster never said. This is not valid arguing, so please stop.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You haven't outright stated it but you've absolutely implied it.

No I haven't, and for the record, when the first poster accused me of such also, I double checked all my posts in this thread just to be sure.

Note that this sentence isn't referring to the Str10 ID thing that I apologized for, it's referring to the identical list statement. It seems like you crossed the two.

rigeld2 wrote:You've argued that cost efficiency is absolute and that tournament lists will be tuned to the peak of such efficiency.

Because that is the truth and always has been. Not being cost efficient doesn't make something a bad choice, but it means it isn't the competitive choice. There is a difference that I think many people don't see here. For the record also, when I say tournament player, I refer to competitive tournament player, not the player that goes to them with a sub-optimal list just to have a bit of fun.

Not being at the peak of cost efficiency doesn't mean it's not a competitive choice, as it seems you're asserting.

rigeld2 wrote:You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

You have a bad habit for this don't you? That also wasn't me you had that conversation with, I believe it was ZebioLizard. I never said anything about Sisters of Battle ever. I know it is a mistake you are making, but it is rather annoying.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/485975/4949521.page
That post was in response to you, it was directed at you. You ignored it and Zebio responded. Therefore you haven't responded to my point, as I said.

rigeld2 wrote:Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

I never used the word uselss I believe, and I clarified in my last post (and further above) that I don't think he is bad, just he isn't competitive.

Fair enough.

rigeld2 wrote:Note that this sentence isn't referring to the Str10 ID thing that I apologized for, it's referring to the identical list statement. It seems like you crossed the two.

I didn't cross the two, though I didn't make the sentence clear enough; let me rephrase that as 'when the first poster accused me of saying something I didn't say'. My point being I've been very careful in what I said, so I know what I did and didn't imply.

rigeld2 wrote:Not being at the peak of cost efficiency doesn't mean it's not a competitive choice, as it seems you're asserting.

I didn't say anything about the peak of cost efficiency. True some things are more cost efficient than others, but the point is he isn't cost efficient at all and so isn't a competitive choice. You may have a different opinion, but I'd wager most competitive player would not rate a unit competitive if they could do the same thing with a much cheaper unit.

rigeld2 wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/485975/4949521.page
That post was in response to you, it was directed at you. You ignored it and Zebio responded. Therefore you haven't responded to my point, as I said.

Okay. Now point out to me where in that post of mine I said Sisters of Battle were competitive.

I ignored it because at first I didn't feel like it was worth responding to, no offense. The fact is I said after we get the results of several tournaments together we'll see what's good and what isn't, and you tried to invalidate that with hyperbole by saying one single tournament doesn't show anything, which is not what I had said clearly. As far as I'm concerned doing this isn't an argument, so I ignored it the first time.

So when you respond to the post I actually made, i.e. multiple tournament results, then I'll respond to yours. That seems fair to me.

orkimedese wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:

Arleucs wrote:
Tried an overexpensive DP:
- MoS (for fleet)
- wings
- power amour
- lvl 3
- spell familiar
- black mace.

rolled biomancy: iron arm+endurance (yay).

Turn 2, charged a squad, killed it (8 out of 10 assault marines, +3 from a nearby squad). the remaning 2 escaped (rolled 1 to chase, opponent rolled 6 ....this ended up killing the DP since he was no longer locked in combat).

Above is probably the best loadout if you can afford it, Difficult to fit this into anything less than1850 and then still becomes a squeeze
75 points for the slim chance of Iron Arm/Endurance or Warp Speed is hard to swallow, considering you only get 2 rolls it doesn't seem worth it.
Even with these powers your DP died way before he earnt his points back. The rest of your army probably sucked because you didnt have any points left lol.

A lesser version to consider is:
- MoN (for shrouding, Keep him in cover in turn 1 and in swoop mode and aim for a 3+ cover save including the shrouding)
- wings
- black mace. (Its AP2 and causes crazy tougness tests that cause ID? errrm yes please always).

Concerning your experience above, you have to think about keeping him in the fight, You do not want your DP coming out of combat in your turn.
To aid you with this it might be a better idea to issue a challenge, once you win it you'll be in combat with the remaining squad in his turn, if you can clear up then you have your turn to get him back into combat again or in swoop mode and/or in cover.

This guy will either die to a couple of bolters or sweep through half an army.

Won't MoN gives him Slow and P, so he cant run or sweep. He will win his first round of cc and then be standing by himself waiting to be shot.

You've got to come out of combat at some point, whether you clean up, dont catch them or do a sweeping advance. Considering this S&P isnt that bad.
Getting to the combat is the tricky part. Last time I used one he got knocked out of the sky by bolters and then vindicatored. Kinda put me off the DP pretty quickly.