Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
No! Because one roll of a six on a Special Character gives him precision shot which will ignore the Sorcerer's Armor save, then he will fail LOS because!, and then he will be killed! Railgun! Right to the face! Bam! Sorcerers are useless!

/endthread !! This post is quit, You iz the weenr!

 Sephyr wrote:


I like how he goes from: "Compare the DP to these other guys! He's just the same and shouldn't get special treatment!" all the way to "Stop comparing the DP to others MCs!" in what, 2 posts?

Also, you need only one railgun shot to ID a prince, so he's not 'tying up' that much. You can easily force him down with lesser shots and punk him with the first railgun the moment he hits the ground. It's really easy.

As for 'enjoying what it is'...it's not that easy to enjoy a really subpar flyer. He may be able to do well against some woefully unprepared armies, but if that's your thing you might want to go Cosmo Kramer and go fight MMA with some 9-year-olds.

TIL that apparently saying how good railguns are is the equivalent of saying all MC are the same.
But what I was referring to when I said it wasn't like the others, is that its a new edition. They seem to be going a different direction with how MC are handled, at least the FMC. Lets face it, if it had EW this would most likely be an auto take and probably game breaking IMO. But since its vulnerable it somehow becomes useless. Apparently people can't hide a MC at all anymore. So it will apparently never get its cover saves!
It can get good war gear and options, the boon table can make it insane as already mentioned, and its in a fairly balanced codex.
It's not like the other MC because those are balanced for an older edition (though sometimes loosely)

And what's with so many people saying that if you lose to this thing then you're obviously a horrible player and/or child?!

I never tought giving him a gift... great idea!

Also thank you everyone for all the arguments to prove that the DP is worthless... Next time I wreak havoc in my opponent line I will get to say... but you can insta-kill him with a S10 weapon! Put enough small arm fire on him and he will crash to the ground and you can nail him down easily! What? You have no railgun? It would be soooo easy to kill him if you were playing Tau! Imagine! I could have taken a Sorcerer with the Brand in a rhino! THAT is overpowered! The DP is only a glass melee cannon... yeah I know... sorry about that WS9, I8, A6 on the charge... that's just average you know...

In the end it's all a matter of choice. You decide to run a DP in your army or you don't. He's a great second HQ choice and he's got a place in my army right next to my new Heldrake and my 2 Maulerfiends... now please target my DP and leave my Maulerfiends alone! C'mon he's easy to kill!

Can a Sorceror use his psychic powers if he's shooting with the brand? I'm kinda unfamiliar with psykers.

I also would like to note, that the brand has a very short range for a unit you are attempting to keep away from the enemy hiding in a big spikey box.

I also should have asked how much it costs to give the wraith lord and other MCs wings. Is it relatively cheaper to run those flying MC? I tried looking up how much their wings cost, but its not listed anywhere. It's almost like the DP is only one of a few FMC right now. Odd. It's almost as if it trades its invulnerability with extreme maneuverability.

And Proxy, I'm sorry to hear that you apparently only play against a bunch of children, since they are the only ones that lose to the DP.

On a serious note, I really want to know how a DP and 2 Maulerfiends do. I'm curious about running one Maulerfiend with the tendrils as an ally unit with my tau. At least until someone tries telling me how useless they are because another unit in another FOC does it marginally better and making the mauler COMPLETELY useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And and Proxy, you forgot that you will be assaulting through cover 100% of the time. Like forever. Because nobody moves units forward anymore.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Can a Sorceror use his psychic powers if he's shooting with the brand? I'm kinda unfamiliar with psykers.

I also would like to note, that the brand has a very short range for a unit you are attempting to keep away from the enemy hiding in a big spikey box.

I also should have asked how much it costs to give the wraith lord and other MCs wings. Is it relatively cheaper to run those flying MC? I tried looking up how much their wings cost, but its not listed anywhere. It's almost like the DP is only one of a few FMC right now. Odd. It's almost as if it trades its invulnerability with extreme maneuverability.

And Proxy, I'm sorry to hear that you apparently only play against a bunch of children, since they are the only ones that lose to the DP.

On a serious note, I really want to know how a DP and 2 Maulerfiends do. I'm curious about running one Maulerfiend with the tendrils as an ally unit with my tau. At least until someone tries telling me how useless they are because another unit in another FOC does it marginally better and making the mauler COMPLETELY useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And and Proxy, you forgot that you will be assaulting through cover 100% of the time. Like forever. Because nobody moves units forward anymore.

If you choose to use a shooting psychic power in the shooting phase you can't shoot with anything else in that phase. The Burning Brand of Skalathrax is not a psychic power, it's an artefact so you use it like a weapon. A Sorcerer could not use a witchfire or a focused witchfire psychic power in the same phase.

As for wings on other MC's I run a flying Tyrant in my Tyranid army and the wings cost 60 pts... the wings on the DP seem cheap in comparison.

Hehe, your comment on how I play against a bunch of children made me laugh ... you made my morning thx . And yeah I never ever charge units that are already in close combat or from... let's say... the back! Yeah, that manoeuvrability is just a joke . And why charge in cover when you have a torrent template that ignore cover? Hhhhmmm not sure...

The DP and the Maulerfiends do really great together. The DP versatility balance the ultra specialisation of the Maulerfiends. I usually don't take my DP out of cover until turn 2... the Maulerfiends are the ones who charge for the opponent line. Since I run 5 troops with 3 of them in rhinos I protect my Maulerfiends with cover or with the rhinos. They are really fast with their 12" movement and if they get a charge on turn 2 my opponent generally lose 2 vehicles.

The Maulerfiend is a specialist, you must choose visely who you want to charge with it. Vehicles are gonners in a turn, infantry with no power fist are good targets too. Do not charge MC's or high toughness/multi-wounds models tho, they do not have enough attack to kill those on the charge. Heavy weapon squads are a good target too... yes overwatch can kill you, but if you get them in cc... they're gone.

So the DP is an infantry killer and the Maulerfiend is a tank/light infantry killer. I really don't see who in the FOC can do that job better than the Maulerfiend... just it's speed is unreal... you ignore cover even on a charge...

Last time I used them I kept them both in reserve because my opponent had 2 Monoliths in deep strike reserve... he got first turn... deep striked in my lines on turn 2... I got my Maulerfiend from reserve on my second turn too and put them somewhere safe for a turn... on turn 3 the 2 monolith where wrecked... the turn after 2 squads of Necron Warriors sitting on 2 objectives were gone... they are that good.

Good to hear. I figured those things would be real beasts, no pun intended. Did you run magma cutters or lash tendrils?

First game I played with a Maulerfiend I fielded only one and I lost it on a carnifex... they are real beasts but they are still walkers with AV12. Hide them and choose your prey carefully or you will lose them.

I run them with the magam cutters. Put lasher tendrils on it only if you want to specialise it as an infantry killer. Since I have enough infantry killers in my army and almost no long range heavy support, it's my Maulerfiends that do the vehicle bashing. Lasher tendrils are good, but the magma cutters are great, that S8, AP1, armourbane free hit (or 2 hits if you hit with your 4 attacks) are great to have against anything.

 WarOne wrote:
Can we say that the DP, in a vacuum by himself without support, is dead meat.

Of course, this is a game with multiple components and strategies. You can probably get the DP into a list and make it functionally viable.

It makes this debate a lot easier to state "The DP with wings has a niche roll like most other units; you just have to find the right one for him."

This.

It would make sense to me if you could wave him off saying that there wasn't a role for him, he was overcosted, easy to kill and he was bad. But this is just not the case. Some things that detractors bring up are true (he is expensive, he can be instant deathed by S10), but those things don't rule him out as a viable unit.
Why not look at it this way: Does he excel at what he's supposed to do? Well, what is he supposed to do? Kill units in close combat. Then, yes, he does excel at that. He kills just about everything in close combat. Should I charge him at a unit of 10 TH/SS guys? Probably not, but what should? If your opponent doesn't have some sort of deathstar like that, can I expect my DP to wipe my opponents army if he doesn't shoot him down? Yes I can.
I've done it.
I have a reasonble expectation now that if I use my DP correctly against most lists, he can be the game winner for me. The list I just played did run a 10 man Grey Knights terminator squad, 3 psyfilemen and strike squads. I think it was a good list played by a good player. He knew what the Prince could do and unlucky for him, I rolled some sick boons. He couldn't take him down and it took him down instead.
I suggest this: play a few games with one. Challenge yourself to use him in the best way possible. Follow what the rule book tells you: "The Warlord is YOU on the battlefield." Don't be stupid, use cover, be patient and bring some pain. I PROMISE you will have fun doing it and I assure you that you will amass skulls for the SKULL THRONE! (if that is your thing!)

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

and lash whips do what?? Init 1? Great!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Man I wish I had a 230 point unit that required snap shots to hit, had an invul, and could torrent an AP3 weapon. And be a CC slaughterhouse at the same time.

Target unit hiding in cover? Torrent them. Out of cover? Blenderize.

Can you make him 265 and give him the Axe as well as the Brand?

but its a one per army Str4 flamer.

Chaos can as many Str6 Ap3 torrent flamers they want, that also need snapshots to hit and get VS at Str7.

The brand is best on a bikelord, and you can only have one.

 Exergy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Actually, the Prince would kill the Tyrant in CC almost every time. Better WS, better Init, access to an invul... Not even a contest. And the Prince is cheaper.

The Prince actually stands a chance against the Swarmlord because of the massive Injt.

And my point was that you're not overpaying for a worthless model - TMCs are actually doing relatively well in 6th. He only costs 300+ points if you throw every option you can on him. Using that as an argument is silly - a Tyrant can cost 430 points but I don't use that in a discussion about his effectiveness.

and lash whips do what?? Init 1? Great!

That would be relevant if the Tyrant example I've been using didn't trade in the LW/BS for some Devourers.

Chaos can as many Str6 Ap3 torrent flamers they want, that also need snapshots to hit and get VS at Str7.

If by "as many as they want" you mean 3 then sure. Dont forget the limited arc of fire on those helldrakes - they arent 360 like the Prince. And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

The brand is best on a bikelord, and you can only have one.

A model that's far easier to kill?

A lord on a bike is easy to kill now too?

Poor CSM with all these fragile units.

How do you guys think it stacks up against the deamon princes of old? is it worth the points or would you keep it at 5th ed version?

rigeld2 wrote:And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

You can, but the big secret is thguy who said there's no such thing as overkill was lying.

rigeld2 wrote:

The brand is best on a bikelord, and you can only have one.

A model that's far easier to kill?

That depends at how you look at it. Running solo or in combat the Bike Lord is slightly easier to kill because of lower WS and 1 less wound, but it also depends on how he is tooled and what he is facing. The first problem is though that 40k is a shooty game with plenty of capable players, so the chances of him running solo are slim, so targetting him in his unit is harder than it is to do to the Prince. Then of course you can argue the Prince can fly to make him harder to hit. The real issue here is the Lord costs ~100pts less than the Prince and is a supporting beatstick rather than something that is relied on all by itself. Too many people look at the situation in terms of raw killing power and plain resilience (which isn't spectacular in either case when you get to the big picture), but this is not a good way to look at what's viable in 40k, as it leaves out more important factors, such as overall army composition and synergy, the meta, and most importantly points efficiency; simply if the Prince costs twice as much as the Lord, then he should be dishing out twice as much punishment, should be twice as resilient, and should lend twice as much support to the army, and if he doesn't do that then the Lord is the better choice. Obviously a Prince won't be twice as much as a Lord, but that's just an arbitrary figure for an example.

This is all too often backed up by anecdotal claims such as 'my Prince killed 600pts of Marines' which just as often is missing the part about the opponent being new to the game, having a crappy list, and/or having crap dice. Unfortunately at this early stage it is this versus statistics, which many people believe are a circus trick, so really is this debate worth having until a few months from now when tournament results will show the good Chaos chocies?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

You can, but the big secret is thguy who said there's no such thing as overkill was lying.

It'd be overkill if they were all forced to target the same unit. Are they?

Unfortunately at this early stage it is this versus statistics, which many people believe are a circus trick, so really is this debate worth having until a few months from now when tournament results will show the good Chaos chocies?

If tournament results were the only way to determine if models are good Biovores would be worthless, SoB would be stronger than IG, and there'd be no such thing as an anti-meta list.

It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:And you realize you can have all 3 of them and the Burning Brand right?

You can, but the big secret is thguy who said there's no such thing as overkill was lying.

It'd be overkill if they were all forced to target the same unit. Are they?

Unfortunately at this early stage it is this versus statistics, which many people believe are a circus trick, so really is this debate worth having until a few months from now when tournament results will show the good Chaos chocies?

If tournament results were the only way to determine if models are good Biovores would be worthless, SoB would be stronger than IG, and there'd be no such thing as an anti-meta list.

It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

I'm not sure where your getting your tournament results, because SoB are still near the bottom in tournament tier lists when it comes to victories.

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2012/08/09/40k-tournament-golden-throne-gt-results/

Nowhere special.

With regards to the grounded tests, the way I read it is if the unit "hits" the FMC, so one test is taken, like a pinning test.

Not one test per hit....
Thoughts?

That's how it works - one test per unit that hits.

rigeld2 wrote:It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

Actually tournaments don't decide good units at all, they show them off. Tournament players use good units and stop using bad ones, so over time looking at results and the lists that achieved them shows what units are performing and which ones aren't. Plus they provide solid information that can be compared to other solid information, rather than every poster giving their own bias anecdotal evidence. By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

 L0rdF1end wrote:

Arleucs wrote:
Tried an overexpensive DP:
- MoS (for fleet)
- wings
- power amour
- lvl 3
- spell familiar
- black mace.

rolled biomancy: iron arm+endurance (yay).

Turn 2, charged a squad, killed it (8 out of 10 assault marines, +3 from a nearby squad). the remaning 2 escaped (rolled 1 to chase, opponent rolled 6 ....this ended up killing the DP since he was no longer locked in combat).

Above is probably the best loadout if you can afford it, Difficult to fit this into anything less than1850 and then still becomes a squeeze
75 points for the slim chance of Iron Arm/Endurance or Warp Speed is hard to swallow, considering you only get 2 rolls it doesn't seem worth it.
Even with these powers your DP died way before he earnt his points back. The rest of your army probably sucked because you didnt have any points left lol.

A lesser version to consider is:
- MoN (for shrouding, Keep him in cover in turn 1 and in swoop mode and aim for a 3+ cover save including the shrouding)
- wings
- black mace. (Its AP2 and causes crazy tougness tests that cause ID? errrm yes please always).

Concerning your experience above, you have to think about keeping him in the fight, You do not want your DP coming out of combat in your turn.
To aid you with this it might be a better idea to issue a challenge, once you win it you'll be in combat with the remaining squad in his turn, if you can clear up then you have your turn to get him back into combat again or in swoop mode and/or in cover.

This guy will either die to a couple of bolters or sweep through half an army.

Won't MoN gives him Slow and P, so he cant run or sweep. He will win his first round of cc and then be standing by himself waiting to be shot.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

My name isn't Joe!

Also, the only way you'll ever know if something is competitive is through experience. You can use the experience of others if you like, but where is the fun in that? Try a unit out in your army, if you like it and had fun, then whamo. If you didn't like it and didn't have fun, then whamo. This is the tactics forum and people are looking to how to use the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch as best that they can. Lots of people are offering up great advice and some people are offering constructive criticisim on why that advice may not be so good.
The point that Daemon Princes are expensive has been beaten to death 11 times. We got it. The point that he can be killed a little easier than he should has also been beaten to death. Lets start looking at more way we can use this guy if we choose to. That isn't so hard is it?
Why can't we all just get along!?

 Brymm wrote:
Why can't we all just get along!?

Because the picture of the Warrior inspires a feeling of rage inside the hearts and bodies of men! ARGH! I'm coming for you Hulk Hogan!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It's a good thing that tournaments are not the only decider of good units.

Actually tournaments don't decide good units at all, they show them off. Tournament players use good units and stop using bad ones, so over time looking at results and the lists that achieved them shows what units are performing and which ones aren't. Plus they provide solid information that can be compared to other solid information, rather than every poster giving their own bias anecdotal evidence. By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

So every tournament list is identical? They must be if all tournament players get rid of bad units and only take good ones.
Yes, there are truly bad units. Pyrovores for example.
Demon Princes aren't anywhere near there. They have definite uses. You're free to ignore them and live in a world where everything is IDed all the time.
I'll be in the real world where S10 weapons don't grow on trees.

rigeld2 wrote:So every tournament list is identical? They must be if all tournament players get rid of bad units and only take good ones.
Yes, there are truly bad units. Pyrovores for example.
Demon Princes aren't anywhere near there. They have definite uses. You're free to ignore them and live in a world where everything is IDed all the time.
I'll be in the real world where S10 weapons don't grow on trees.

Do you want to quote where I said all tournament lists are the same? You are skewing things to try make a point here; tournament players knocking out the bad units from their lists would only result in them all having the same lists if the remaining good options were only a few, which is hardly ever the case.

Next up, do you want to quote where I said that they are only bad because they are ID'ed by S10? You are the second person to imply I have said that, even though I have yet to make that point, as I don't see that alone as a reason not to take it, and I have made plenty of other points as to why a DP isn't competitive but you are choosing to ignore them and instead lay claims on me that I never made. Another one; where did I say everything is ID'ed all the time? Maybe before you start talking about the real world, you should stop using phantom posts as fuel for your obviously weakening argument; the hyperbole is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

 Brymm wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

By that reckoning every single unit in this game is competitive because Average Joe said so.

My name isn't Joe!

Also, the only way you'll ever know if something is competitive is through experience. You can use the experience of others if you like, but where is the fun in that? Try a unit out in your army, if you like it and had fun, then whamo. If you didn't like it and didn't have fun, then whamo. This is the tactics forum and people are looking to how to use the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch as best that they can. Lots of people are offering up great advice and some people are offering constructive criticisim on why that advice may not be so good.
The point that Daemon Princes are expensive has been beaten to death 11 times. We got it. The point that he can be killed a little easier than he should has also been beaten to death. Lets start looking at more way we can use this guy if we choose to. That isn't so hard is it?
Why can't we all just get along!?

You might want to look up the meaning of discussion; it certainly doesn't mean for everyone to arbitrarily agree and be happy over everything. Part of discussing tactics and strategy is determining what's good and what isn't. If you don't want to debate about whether the Daemon Prince is good or bad, then stop responding to posts like mine arguing the point. The thread is for everyone, not just those who are fans of the unit in question.

Then again, why bother posting when all people do is tell you you said things you didn't and whine that you aren't shooting rainbows out of your ass? Seems like a waste of time, so I may take your advice and not bother arguing the point anymore.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So every tournament list is identical? They must be if all tournament players get rid of bad units and only take good ones.
Yes, there are truly bad units. Pyrovores for example.
Demon Princes aren't anywhere near there. They have definite uses. You're free to ignore them and live in a world where everything is IDed all the time.
I'll be in the real world where S10 weapons don't grow on trees.

Do you want to quote where I said all tournament lists are the same? You are skewing things to try make a point here; tournament players knocking out the bad units from their lists would only result in them all having the same lists if the remaining good options were only a few, which is hardly ever the case.

You haven't outright stated it but you've absolutely implied it. You've argued that cost efficiency is absolute and that tournament lists will be tuned to the peak of such efficiency.

Maybe before you start talking about the real world, you should stop using phantom posts as fuel for your obviously weakening argument; the hyperbole is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

I apologize - I had you and Kevlar mixed up in my head. I shouldn't have.

You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

I can agree that Demon Princes aren't a no brainer include - I don't think I've ever said they were. Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

rigeld2 wrote:


You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

I can agree that Demon Princes aren't a no brainer include - I don't think I've ever said they were. Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

Its apparent you are not familiar with statistics. I suggest you look up the term outlier.

Kevlar wrote:
Its apparent you are not familiar with statistics. I suggest you look up the term outlier.

It's apparent that you don't understand the point I was making. Thanks for participating.

For every IG placing, there is a SOB placing above that. So point still stands.

rigeld2 wrote:You haven't outright stated it but you've absolutely implied it.

No I haven't, and for the record, when the first poster accused me of such also, I double checked all my posts in this thread just to be sure.

rigeld2 wrote:You've argued that cost efficiency is absolute and that tournament lists will be tuned to the peak of such efficiency.

Because that is the truth and always has been. Not being cost efficient doesn't make something a bad choice, but it means it isn't the competitive choice. There is a difference that I think many people don't see here. For the record also, when I say tournament player, I refer to competitive tournament player, not the player that goes to them with a sub-optimal list just to have a bit of fun.

rigeld2 wrote:You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

You have a bad habit for this don't you? That also wasn't me you had that conversation with, I believe it was ZebioLizard. I never said anything about Sisters of Battle ever. I know it is a mistake you are making, but it is rather annoying.

rigeld2 wrote:Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

I never used the word uselss I believe, and I clarified in my last post (and further above) that I don't think he is bad, just he isn't competitive.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Its apparent you are not familiar with statistics. I suggest you look up the term outlier.

It's apparent that you don't understand the point I was making. Thanks for participating.

Actually I reckon he does. From my understanding his point is that you are using one single tournament to skew a point made that collective results of many tournaments over time show what is working and what isn't. In other words, he is pointing out more hyperbole. And I can't blame him, as so many of your points revolve around taking a few words out of a sentence, out of context, and blowing them out of proportion into something the original poster never said. This is not valid arguing, so please stop.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:You haven't outright stated it but you've absolutely implied it.

No I haven't, and for the record, when the first poster accused me of such also, I double checked all my posts in this thread just to be sure.

Note that this sentence isn't referring to the Str10 ID thing that I apologized for, it's referring to the identical list statement. It seems like you crossed the two.

rigeld2 wrote:You've argued that cost efficiency is absolute and that tournament lists will be tuned to the peak of such efficiency.

Because that is the truth and always has been. Not being cost efficient doesn't make something a bad choice, but it means it isn't the competitive choice. There is a difference that I think many people don't see here. For the record also, when I say tournament player, I refer to competitive tournament player, not the player that goes to them with a sub-optimal list just to have a bit of fun.

Not being at the peak of cost efficiency doesn't mean it's not a competitive choice, as it seems you're asserting.

rigeld2 wrote:You've also not responded to my point that, according to you, SoB are a strong competitive choice - the Golden Throne GT had them place 4th over Imperial Guard.

You have a bad habit for this don't you? That also wasn't me you had that conversation with, I believe it was ZebioLizard. I never said anything about Sisters of Battle ever. I know it is a mistake you are making, but it is rather annoying.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/485975/4949521.page
That post was in response to you, it was directed at you. You ignored it and Zebio responded. Therefore you haven't responded to my point, as I said.

rigeld2 wrote:Saying they're useless or bad is just simply incorrect however.

I never used the word uselss I believe, and I clarified in my last post (and further above) that I don't think he is bad, just he isn't competitive.

Fair enough.