an I don't like them at all. I don't understand the rage about Necrons I really don't.
How do you beat an army that nearly maxes out on screamers and flamers. Show me a Space Wolf list that can beat a daemon army stacked with screamers and flamers.
valace2 wrote: an I don't like them at all. I don't understand the rage about Necrons I really don't.
How do you beat an army that nearly maxes out on screamers and flamers. Show me a Space Wolf list that can beat a daemon army stacked with screamers and flamers.
Take two Grey Knight strike squads as allies. Fire off Warp Quake, and watch them squirm.
Necroshea wrote: I imagine people hate necron flying circus because they cram so many damn flyers down your throat.
But yes, daemons become pretty damn annoying to play against. There's a reason they're apparently doing so good in tourny settings.
From what I can tell, you have two choices. Get some cheap hordes to bubble wrap important units, or run GK and spam warp quake.
Cheese against cheese sadly.
The group I game with doesn't play cheese we run fun competitive stuff, we have one daemon player but he doesn't spam flamers or screamers, he uses some of them but in small squads. Our local store hosted a tourney today and we had 3 guys come from out of the area and they brought 2 daemon an one Necron spam list. The Necron list wasn't near as bad as the daemon lists. I can put together a good GK anti daemon list but then the guys in my group who run Blood Angels or Eldar would pick it apart. I don't think that there is a good all comer Space Wolf list that can beat daemon spam.
valace2 wrote: an I don't like them at all. I don't understand the rage about Necrons I really don't.
How do you beat an army that nearly maxes out on screamers and flamers. Show me a Space Wolf list that can beat a daemon army stacked with screamers and flamers.
Take two Grey Knight strike squads as allies. Fire off Warp Quake, and watch them squirm.
I am going to have to do that in the next tourney, maybe even take interceptor squads with the strike squads, blow the tourney but hose the daemon spam players.
I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?
That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".
People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.
So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday
Above post should be disregarded, this is a game not real life, games should be balanced, however his second point is valid, you take the best of what you have and for the first time in years daemons can fight back effectively, and I for one will never take any sw player seriously, if he dare cry cheese at another book.
Gunnvulcan wrote: That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".
However the US military doesn't play to points limits do they? The point is, both sides are supposed to be equivalent in ability, whether thats quality vs quantity or such like, they are equal. That equality seems hard to find in this case.
Formosa wrote: Above post should be disregarded, this is a game not real life, games should be balanced, however his second point is valid, you take the best of what you have and for the first time in years daemons can fight back effectively, and I for one will never take any sw player seriously, if he dare cry cheese at another book.
Daemons have always been a solid competitive army, until GK's showed up and ruined them. Even before the WD update, you still had scary, evil lists like 'Fatecrusher' or 'Fatefiend' or 'Eppibombs' to deal with.
The army simply got a bad rap due to it's rather strange and unique deployment, and that its learning curve was slightly greater than even Dark Eldar!
As for how to deal with the new WD 'cheese' lists that spam 18-27 Flamers and Screamers? Bolters, bolters, and more bolters.
Never, ever, EVER! waste your S8+ shots on Flamers & Screamers because every single Daemon has the Eternal Warrior rule! Instead, threat those T4/5++ gribblies like you would any old ork... Basic guns and, (ironically), flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons and their ilk will shred those units. Even with the likes of Fateweaver's re-rolls, you'll still chew through those 5++ saves in no time.
Obviously, you don't want to ever assault Flamers unless there's only a couple of 'em left! Since SW's lack ready access to cost effective Storm Shield equiped units, you could instead turn in one of those Missilefang packs for a 'Bolterfang' pack. Swap out one or two of your Grey Hunter units' melta/plasma guns for a pair of Flamers. Daemons still have trouble opening up armour at range, especially on their first turn before we can assault!
Screamers can be delt with in assaults provided you have a unit with I5 or better. (IIRC, aren't Thunderwolves I5?!) If not, swap in some Power Lances on those guys who can take power toys, and some Storm Shields to soak-up the ap2 attacks.
And remember, Screamers are still a Tzeentchian unit, meaning they're WS is pitifull! They'll need 4's to hit you back, while you'll happily smash them in the face on a 3+. Plus, the unit has no way to issue Challenges outside of attatching an IC to the unit, so any of you own combat HQ's can go bonkers laying into the unit.
Don't have any I5+ units that are decent assaulters? Then treat Screamers like you would Flamers and shoot them up with masses of basic guns!
Using equally donkeycave moves like spaming Warp Quake is simply proving you're no better than the spamy jerk in the first place IMHO. Most Daemon players who've hung around this long with the army aren't the stupid gits running the newest, latest 'uber spam list.
Besides, it's far more satisfying to beat such TFG's with a balanced list and solid battleplan than to simply go for the quick-fix solution. If you do bring GK's and Warp Quake him, then next time he'll likely trade in a few of his Daemons for a min unit of Cultists and plasma-spaming Havocs/Chosen to try and alpha-strike you Knights.
Beat the dumb, spamy git with brains and he'll be at a complete loss as to how to counter you!
Daemon player here. Those unit cost a fortune. Grey hunters don't. Shoot the gak out of them and they will die. Its no different then terminators spam except they are fast and have a worse save
sfshilo wrote: Daemon player here. Those unit cost a fortune. Grey hunters don't. Shoot the gak out of them and they will die. Its no different then terminators spam except they are fast and have a worse save
You may want to read the point costs again man... Flamers and Screamers are *incredibly* cheap, and will toast Grey Hunters any day of the week.
To the OP : Screamers and Flamers can be beaten, but only through superior tactic, sheer luck or a combination of both. Right now they're the most broken units in the game, because GW wanted to sell their new kit. Wait until February when the rumored Chaos Daemon codex comes out and they'll be brought into line.
Gunnvulcan wrote: I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?
That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".
People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.
So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday
lol. Thats funny. Wasn't criticizing the players, am heavily criticizing the units. Its a game, comparing it to real life is kind of silly. And with the changes to vehicle rules Space Wolves took a bit of a hit you take razorspam long fang lists and you are giving up First Blood most of the time, so just taking razorbacks and rhino's you are starting in the hole before the game even begins. Long Fangs are still good but against Daemons they are almost useless.
I consider your comment about broke, stupid, or unskilled to be incredibly insulting, and you really should take a long look at yourself for making judgements about people having never known them.
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sfshilo wrote: Daemon player here. Those unit cost a fortune. Grey hunters don't. Shoot the gak out of them and they will die. Its no different then terminators spam except they are fast and have a worse save
Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece? so for 315 points you get a 9 man jump unit that has 2 wounds each, eternal warrior, a 5+ invuln, can deepstrike on turn one, can pump out 27 shots at 18", and can put out a flamer template that ignores armour and always wounds on a 4+ that is extremely expensive how can daemons afford that? A Primarch would die running into a unit of Flamers.
As for the screamers, I am not sure of their point costs, but again can be taken it a large group has 2 wounds, eternal warrior, a 5+ invuln, can skim 24" and drop buckets full of wounds as they fly over a unit, and can drop an inch from you. Why would they do that you ask? Because they have 3 base attacks at I4, Str5, AP2, and oh yea they have armourbane so unless you have anything that is I5 or higher they will lose. You might kill a few screamers but they will overkill you, an after that they will eat your vehicles.
Formosa wrote: Above post should be disregarded, this is a game not real life, games should be balanced, however his second point is valid, you take the best of what you have and for the first time in years daemons can fight back effectively, and I for one will never take any sw player seriously, if he dare cry cheese at another book.
Daemons have always been a solid competitive army, until GK's showed up and ruined them. Even before the WD update, you still had scary, evil lists like 'Fatecrusher' or 'Fatefiend' or 'Eppibombs' to deal with.
The army simply got a bad rap due to it's rather strange and unique deployment, and that its learning curve was slightly greater than even Dark Eldar!
As for how to deal with the new WD 'cheese' lists that spam 18-27 Flamers and Screamers? Bolters, bolters, and more bolters.
Never, ever, EVER! waste your S8+ shots on Flamers & Screamers because every single Daemon has the Eternal Warrior rule! Instead, threat those T4/5++ gribblies like you would any old ork... Basic guns and, (ironically), flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons and their ilk will shred those units. Even with the likes of Fateweaver's re-rolls, you'll still chew through those 5++ saves in no time.
Obviously, you don't want to ever assault Flamers unless there's only a couple of 'em left! Since SW's lack ready access to cost effective Storm Shield equiped units, you could instead turn in one of those Missilefang packs for a 'Bolterfang' pack. Swap out one or two of your Grey Hunter units' melta/plasma guns for a pair of Flamers. Daemons still have trouble opening up armour at range, especially on their first turn before we can assault!
Screamers can be delt with in assaults provided you have a unit with I5 or better. (IIRC, aren't Thunderwolves I5?!) If not, swap in some Power Lances on those guys who can take power toys, and some Storm Shields to soak-up the ap2 attacks.
And remember, Screamers are still a Tzeentchian unit, meaning they're WS is pitifull! They'll need 4's to hit you back, while you'll happily smash them in the face on a 3+. Plus, the unit has no way to issue Challenges outside of attatching an IC to the unit, so any of you own combat HQ's can go bonkers laying into the unit.
Don't have any I5+ units that are decent assaulters? Then treat Screamers like you would Flamers and shoot them up with masses of basic guns!
Using equally donkeycave moves like spaming Warp Quake is simply proving you're no better than the spamy jerk in the first place IMHO. Most Daemon players who've hung around this long with the army aren't the stupid gits running the newest, latest 'uber spam list.
Besides, it's far more satisfying to beat such TFG's with a balanced list and solid battleplan than to simply go for the quick-fix solution. If you do bring GK's and Warp Quake him, then next time he'll likely trade in a few of his Daemons for a min unit of Cultists and plasma-spaming Havocs/Chosen to try and alpha-strike you Knights.
Beat the dumb, spamy git with brains and he'll be at a complete loss as to how to counter you!
So what do you shoot at, the flamers, the screamers, or the Herald of Tzeench that has 5 wounds, 4+invuln, breath of chaos, and has a teleport homer to allow those nasty beasties from jumping down your throat. Bolters, Bolters, and more bolters are good for killing maybe the some of the screamers and some of the flamers or do you try to go all out to kill the chariot and then let the screamers and flamers eat you? I have a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry with a Wolf Lord and and I could not assualt those screamers.
Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.
valace2 wrote: Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece?
They're 23pts a piece, not 35...
LOL there ya go 207 points I can't even get a 10 man strike squad with psybolt ammo for that and you can barely get a 5 man squad of any terminators for that. WTF were they thinking?
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nosferatu1001 wrote: Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.
How can you build a unit that can not be assaulted? With high initiative at least you have a fighting chance against the Screamers but against Flamers no one would be left to complete the charge. Anyone know their point cost off the top of yer head?
They are trying to kill off competitive play, and sell alot of daemons in the process.
valace2 wrote: Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece?
They're 23pts a piece, not 35...
LOL there ya go 207 points I can't even get a 10 man strike squad with psybolt ammo for that and you can barely get a 5 man squad of any terminators for that. WTF were they thinking?
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nosferatu1001 wrote: Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.
How can you build a unit that can not be assaulted? With high initiative at least you have a fighting chance against the Screamers but against Flamers no one would be left to complete the charge. Anyone know their point cost off the top of yer head?
They are trying to kill off competitive play, and sell alot of daemons in the process.
Gotta love the irony of a Grey Knights player complaining about Daemons. Booo hooo, booo hooo
Now you know how all of the other armies felt during 5th.
Gunnvulcan wrote: I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?
That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".
People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.
So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday
Are you the type that would play competitive chess and bribe the organizers to allow you to replace every piece as Queens?
and then believe you won with skills?
warhammer suffers unfortunate codex creep just so GW can sell extras to power gamers by making the new shinny units extra strong,
you are only fooling yourself if you think a game that is supposed to be fair, should be played your way...
I mean... its a game, why would you ever use real life comparison like the Armies where people's life are at stake to reason with?
That is desperation / WAAC is it not? for toy soldiers?...
valace2 wrote: Agree with the above comment Flamers are what 35 points a piece?
They're 23pts a piece, not 35...
LOL there ya go 207 points I can't even get a 10 man strike squad with psybolt ammo for that and you can barely get a 5 man squad of any terminators for that. WTF were they thinking?
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nosferatu1001 wrote: Yep, all arguments against flamers -their relative fragility and expense - went out of the window with th eupdate. I could stomach points drop, or wound increase - but both? Bloody awful games design there.
How can you build a unit that can not be assaulted? With high initiative at least you have a fighting chance against the Screamers but against Flamers no one would be left to complete the charge. Anyone know their point cost off the top of yer head?
They are trying to kill off competitive play, and sell alot of daemons in the process.
Gotta love the irony of a Grey Knights player complaining about Daemons. Booo hooo, booo hooo
Now you know how all of the other armies felt during 5th.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Show me one unit in the Grey Knight codex that is as good as 9 flamers for 207 or 9 Screamers for 225. Go ahead I dare ya. An Grey Knights were hardly as OP in 5th as Daemons are now. I also run Tau, they haven't received so much as a crumb or new unit from GW in years show me how they beat Daemons. Again I dare you. An I never ran the Purifier/Psyfledread spam lists that were the rave of the internet, I ran Storm Ravens, Vindicare Assassins, and the occasional Dreadknight, because my local scene doesn't live or die by the netlist.
This isn't codex creep its insanity. Imagine a unit of Paladins with eternal warrior. Or Nob Bikers or Thunderwolf Cavalry. The fact that all of these daemons have 2 wounds and eternal warrior is laughable. I scored a direct hit on a unit of Flamers from a frikin Vindicator and only managed to kill 2 of them. If thats not OP I don't know what is. Hell at best if I had wounded each one and they failed each save there would be 5 frickin Flamers still standing.
An I could still build a Grey Knight army that would beat daemons everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. It wouldn't be competitive against other armies but it would kill the hell out of daemons, psilencers on mass Strike and Interceptor squads. If I had the first turn the game would be over. Hell I would run a Dreadknight with the heavy psilencer if I knew for a fact I was playing daemons. You better believe any list I cook up from now on for tournaments will include at least some Grey Knights.
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.
granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved
juraigamer wrote: Tzeentch demons are the problem with demons, not the other 3 gods.
As it stands, Tzeentch demon spam, nercon flier spam are armies I will refuse to play against.
ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really lovedd tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around
DPBellathrom wrote: people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.
granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved
Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?
Lets see 9 bolt pistols and maybe a plasma or melta gun. Out of the 9 Bolt pistols lets say 6 hit, then we will go high an say 4 of those wound, so you have 4 wounds, the flamers make 1 save so we have a dead flamer an one with a wound on it, so tack in the melta or plasma hit an wound, and you still have 7 flamers left, odds are good you will get at least 2 shots from each flamer, thats 14 hits say 7 wounds after that so you have 3 assault marines attacking those 7 flamers. You could always add in another unit's round of bolter fire, but they are prolly already dead from the flamers initial attack. Thats if the screamers didn't already soften up that assault squad before they could do the charge of the light brigade against the Flamer Wall of Death.
juraigamer wrote: Tzeentch demons are the problem with demons, not the other 3 gods.
As it stands, Tzeentch demon spam, nercon flier spam are armies I will refuse to play against.
ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really lovedd tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around
DPBellathrom wrote:
ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really loved tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around
I played in a 2250pt tournament yesterday and was tabled at the end of turn 2 in the 1st round. I will never voluntarily play an army like that. If I come across it in a tournament that's that, but I won't be going to tournaments without some Grey Knight allies, and I won't play a Tzeentch army for fun. It wasn't it really wasn't. A friend of mine who is a damn good player ran a pretty strong Blood Angel list and he was tabled the same way at the end of turn 2 in the 2nd round.
DPBellathrom wrote: people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.
granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved
Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?
Lets see 9 bolt pistols and maybe a plasma or melta gun. Out of the 9 Bolt pistols lets say 6 hit, then we will go high an say 4 of those wound, so you have 4 wounds, the flamers make 1 save so we have a dead flamer an one with a wound on it, so tack in the melta or plasma hit an wound, and you still have 7 flamers left, odds are good you will get at least 2 shots from each flamer, thats 14 hits say 7 wounds after that so you have 3 assault marines attacking those 7 flamers. You could always add in another round of bolter fire, but they are prolly already dead from the flamers initial attack. Thats if the screamers didn't already soften up that assault squad before they could do the charge of the light brigade against the Flamer Wall of Death.
a vindi didnt work due to some bad luck....well damn. I agree this army is clearly broken.
I will still echo using some GK allies for warp quake so they wont dare get close to you meaning you can pick them off at range. when there's only a few left feel free to blits in with a ten man unit. not to mention you have your banks of MLdevs to throw plenty of templates towards them
Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.
DPBellathrom wrote: people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.
granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved
Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?
You dropped a Vindicator shell on a deep strikes unit (in perfect blast formation) and only got two wounds?
And that's your basis for calling cheese?
blood reaper wrote: Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.
ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.
I second that, I will gladly play an uphill battle against a list I know is better, but I wont even bother with a list that is impossible to win.
And T-demon spam is just silly powerful, you CANT compare flamers OR screamers to anything short of other "cheese spam" units, and playing against so many deep striking powerhouses that are fully capable of taking down half your army before you get to even respond, is just a pointless game.
(heck I am a low-budget Tau! EVERYTHING is uphill for me I enjoy even the losses as long I actually get to TRY to win.)
DPBellathrom wrote: people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.
granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved
Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?
You dropped a Vindicator shell on a deep strikes unit (in perfect blast formation) and only got two wounds?
And that's your basis for calling cheese?
No you are missing the point... man its like talking to a wall. I put the Vindicator shell on them direct hit perfect formation, i Wounded 7 times which might have killed a grand total of 3 count em 3 whole flamers out of 9, after a direct hit from a Vindicator round, he made three saves so he only lost 2 of his flamers, eternal warrior remember they don't die like normal anything in 40k.
I then proceeded to rapid fire two squad of Grey Hunters into them, I managed to kill off 5 of them which left two. Now I was lucky because he had a bad scatter and wasn't able to put his template down but he had those two left which then proceeded to kill off 8 Grey Hunters. But never fear he had two more units of Flamers to come on yet, his screamers were off strafing my Long Fangs.
valace2 wrote: No you are missing the point... man its like talking to a wall. I put the Vindicator shell on them direct hit perfect formation, i Wounded 7 times which might have killed a grand total of 3 count em 3 whole flamers out of 9, after a direct hit from a Vindicator round, he made three saves so he only lost 2 of his flamers, eternal warrior remember they don't die like normal anything in 40k.
I then proceeded to rapid fire two squad of Grey Hunters into them, I managed to kill off 5 of them which left two. Now I was lucky because he had a bad scatter and wasn't able to put his template down but he had those two left which then proceeded to kill off 8 Grey Hunters. But never fear he had two more units of Flamers to come on yet, his screamers were off strafing my Long Fangs.
So basically, he managed an abnormally high amount of saves against the Vindicator hit. This is a game of dice - gak happens. I had a Carnifex die from 8 Splinter Pistol shots. He managed to hit and wound with 6, and I failed 5 saves. Abnormally high amount of hits and wounds and abnormally low amount of saves. That doesn't make Wyches an awesome shooting unit, it just means I rolled poorly, and he rolled well.
No you are missing the point... man its like talking to a wall. I put the Vindicator shell on them direct hit perfect formation, i Wounded 7 times which might have killed a grand total of 3 count em 3 whole flamers out of 9, after a direct hit from a Vindicator round, he made three saves so he only lost 2 of his flamers, eternal warrior remember they don't die like normal anything in 40k.
I then proceeded to rapid fire two squad of Grey Hunters into them, I managed to kill off 5 of them which left two. Now I was lucky because he had a bad scatter and wasn't able to put his template down but he had those two left which then proceeded to kill off 8 Grey Hunters. But never fear he had two more units of Flamers to come on yet, his screamers were off strafing my Long Fangs.
Hide in your vehicles and stop shooting them with S8+since it don't do jack!
Daemons suck at killing vehicles at range since we have only 2 very costly sources of BS5+ Bolts. Everything else that can take a S8/ap1 single shot 'gun' is either BS4 (Tzeentch Heralds), or else a whimpy BS3...
Hide in transports at the *only* thing a Flamer/Screamer spam list can do to on their first turn is try to pop some transports. (Flamers will with enough template hits, but the Screamers are useless)
Or better yet, if you're going first, spread the feth out! Not only do you make it harder for those templates to nail lots of dudes, but using that full 2" coherency, you start to limit where the daemon player can safely land.
The Daemons only get half their army against your entire force! With smart deployment there's no way a bolter-based Marine army should be losing this match-up, especially when the Daemon player is sinking their pts into guys that cost at least 23pts a pop!
Fight fire with fire. Lose the stupid crap like vindies, meltaguns & plasmas which Daemons don't give two feth's about. Bring in the Heavy bolters, Asscans and Flamers. Throw in some I5 assaulty unit/s to clean-up the Screamers and you're golden.
Flamer/Screamer spam is simply yet another one-trick-poney army. Learn it's trick and you'll beat it. Hell, my friend recently laughed his way through a near-tabling of a 27 Flamer + 27 Screamer list with his Orks. Shoota Boyz do awful things to T4/5++ units, no matter how many wounds they have!
High volume low (ish) strength dakka will kill flamers fine. Throw S4/5/6 shots at them and they'll drop like flies.
People are just too used to high strength weapons being useful they forget they're useless against an army with no vehicles and army-wide Eternal Warrior.
They're also easy enough to assault - just throw a cheap unit at them first, then close in with the big boys. Obviously this varies from army to army in effectiveness.
While admittedly spam lists that have a faint reek of cheese are somewhat annoying I would never refuse a game because someone runs a list I don't like. I may be tabled in a few turns and lose but will take away from that game some wisdom for the next time I run into something similar.
And besides isn't the point of the game to make an army list that is successful? I mean if the point of the game was to make it easy for your opponent to win would you really want to play?
I am not trying to get down on anyone but all the whining about how OP certain armies are is just ridiculous because every army has it's weak points but it's just up to you to figure them out and exploit them.
blood reaper wrote: Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.
ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.
1 squad of all bolters is 20 shots, ~13 hit, ~7 wound, ~2 saves, so 2.5 Flamers dead.
1 squad of all bolters against a TAC squad. 20 shots, 13 hit, 7 wound, 5 saves, 2 dead.
DPBellathrom wrote: people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.
granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved
Charge them?? Wall of Death with flamers is a potential suicide. D3 hits per flamer that on a 4+ ignores armor saves.
Balanced armies have a little trouble with these guys. Necron airforce can outright lose to them Turn1. Shooty armies deployed properly will rip them to shreds.
blood reaper wrote: Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.
ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.
You only have one squad of Tactical Marines?
When did Eternal Warrior effect this situation?
It's called a Devastator squad, give them four Heavy Bolters (or five if your Long Fangs) and watch as the Flamers just disappear. Screamers aren't any better, the fact is, they have a 5+ save. It's quite poor, especially when it fails a majority of the time. Enough Tactical Marines will do the same job, as will any massed fire.
@Experiment 623 Screamers have 3 armour bane attacks each, so yeah, your advice won't help.
blood reaper wrote: Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.
ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.
1 squad of all bolters is 20 shots, ~13 hit, ~7 wound, ~2 saves, so 2.5 Flamers dead.
1 squad of all bolters against a TAC squad. 20 shots, 13 hit, 7 wound, 5 saves, 2 dead.
It's like they're similar or something.
Ok so what happens after the 7 remaining Flamers move up and start putting out their templates? I will save you the trouble they are dead. So using your math it would take 4 tactical squads all of whom are within rapid fire range to take out that 9 man Flamer squad.
blood reaper wrote: Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.
ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.
1 squad of all bolters is 20 shots, ~13 hit, ~7 wound, ~2 saves, so 2.5 Flamers dead.
1 squad of all bolters against a TAC squad. 20 shots, 13 hit, 7 wound, 5 saves, 2 dead.
It's like they're similar or something.
Ok so what happens after the 7 remaining Flamers move up and start putting out their templates? I will save you the trouble they are dead. So using your math it would take 4 tactical squads all of whom are within rapid fire range to take out that 9 man Flamer squad.
blood reaper wrote: Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.
ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.
You only have one squad of Tactical Marines?
When did Eternal Warrior effect this situation?
It's called a Devastator squad, give them four Heavy Bolters (or five if your Long Fangs) and watch as the Flamers just disappear. Screamers aren't any better, the fact is, they have a 5+ save. It's quite poor, especially when it fails a majority of the time. Enough Tactical Marines will do the same job, as will any massed fire.
@Experiment 623 Screamers have 3 armour bane attacks each, so yeah, your advice won't help.
So in a tournament when you don't know who you will be facing you will stick heavy bolters on your long range troops on the chance you might be facing deamons?
You don't have to have all your units geared towards killing infantry, but have a forced with the ability to take on all comers. Right now, you just want people to say "daemons are overpowered", so whining is justified.
Any Grey Knight player or Space Wolf player that is whining about the power of Daemons needs to STFU.
Grey Knights were so broken in 5th. And don't give me that b.s. about how "I just ran a fluffy list in 5th". Pleaaaseeeeee
You deserve everything you have with the current power level of daemons. I am glad the meta has changed, and Daemons
should be nasty. They are daemons after all.
And the part about how daemons weren't any good before this update is an Internet urban legend. I was undefeated against
Grey Knights with my Daemons in 5th. And that includes tabling such power builds as Draigo Wing (multiple times) and Purifier
Spam. They couldn't deal with 24 Bloodcrushers supported by Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster w\Blessing. It was always a massacre,
unless they tailored their list.
Firstborn wrote: Any Grey Knight player or Space Wolf player that is whining about the power of Daemons needs to STFU.
Grey Knights were so broken in 5th. And don't give me that b.s. about how "I just ran a fluffy list in 5th". Pleaaaseeeeee
You deserve everything you have with the current power level of daemons. I am glad the meta has changed, and Daemons
should be nasty. They are daemons after all.
And the part about how daemons weren't any good before this update is an Internet urban legend. I was undefeated against
Grey Knights with my Daemons in 5th. And that includes tabling such power builds as Draigo Wing (multiple times) and Purifier
Spam. They couldn't deal with 24 Bloodcrushers supported by Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster w\Blessing. It was always a massacre,
unless they tailored their list.
just need to stfu huh? wow ok how about no skip.
There is nothing nor was there anything in the Grey Knight codex that was anywhere near as strong as Flamers and Screamers are now, and thanks for contradicting yourself. Grey Knights were so broken in 5th an yet you tabled them over and over again beating pretty much any list they made. Sounds like you are the superman of 40k players.
Of course I would expect no less than a full throated defense of daemons from a daemons player.
You don't have to have all your units geared towards killing infantry, but have a forced with the ability to take on all comers. Right now, you just want people to say "daemons are overpowered", so whining is justified.
Yep its just whining after watching my all comers 2250 space wolf list get tabled by Daemons in turn 2, an then watching a Blood Angel list suffer the same fate.
Yep just whining, move along nothing to see here folks ignore the 18-27 flamers, and 18-27 screamers they ain't all that. Concentrate on the big fat green demon he is what you should worry about.
Yeah I don't get why people are knocking units that can take all Missile Launchers. I do play demons, including flamer spam, and all-missile launchers make me terrified. The turn after I deep-strike there'll be 4 plates each getting 6 (IIRC) underneath them, at strength 4. I would say max out on missile launchers and you can dominate your opponent's deployment. Make him deploy near his table edge so it'll take a while for the flamers to get up, even with jump packs it'll take them 2 or 3 turns to get up, during which they *will* be whittled down.
Yeah I don't get why people are knocking units that can take all Missile Launchers. I do play demons, including flamer spam, and all-missile launchers make me terrified. The turn after I deep-strike there'll be 4 plates each getting 6 (IIRC) underneath them, at strength 4. I would say max out on missile launchers and you can dominate your opponent's deployment. Make him deploy near his table edge so it'll take a while for the flamers to get up, even with jump packs it'll take them 2 or 3 turns to get up, during which they *will* be whittled down.
An those missile launchers will all have line of sight? An not a single one will scatter? I would like to see that.
I actually was going to do that I even had a Rune Priest with Prescience there for rerolls unfortunately a full squad of screamers deepstriked nearby and did their skimming bucketfull of attacks and killed 3 of them and the sergeant.
An those missile launchers will all have line of sight? An not a single one will scatter? I would like to see that.
...I didn't say they would. I was giving actual *tactical* advice which some people find hard to deal with. 4 BS4 missile launchers will terrify any demon player, you can use that to manipulate where your opponent lands. Either he risks taking 4, 8 or 12 flak missile to the face, or he deep-strikes miles away from where he wants to be, thereby breaking up his line.
I actually was going to do that I even had a Rune Priest with Prescience there for rerolls unfortunately a full squad of screamers deepstriked nearby and did their skimming bucketfull of attacks and killed 3 of them and the sergeant.
Screamers can't assault after deep strike. They're also pretty weak if you assault them first.
An those missile launchers will all have line of sight? An not a single one will scatter? I would like to see that.
...I didn't say they would. I was giving actual *tactical* advice which some people find hard to deal with. 4 BS4 missile launchers will terrify any demon player, you can use that to manipulate where your opponent lands. Either he risks taking 4, 8 or 12 flak missile to the face, or he deep-strikes miles away from where he wants to be, thereby breaking up his line.
I actually was going to do that I even had a Rune Priest with Prescience there for rerolls unfortunately a full squad of screamers deepstriked nearby and did their skimming bucketfull of attacks and killed 3 of them and the sergeant.
Screamers can't assault after deep strike. They're also pretty weak if you assault them first.
Oh yea screamers are so weak, so incredibly weak!! I didn't realize it before, thanks for pointing that out. They can do their silly zoom over you and drop bucketfulls of hits. Its a shooting attack not a close combat attack.
An besides that they are so weak, with their 3 base attacks, and I4 an oh yea all of their close combat attacks are AP2 an have armourbane yep pretty weak in close combat those guys are. If you are playing Eldar or have Halberds then yea you might be able to pick off some but there are not a whole lot of units in the game that are I5 or higher.
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MrScience wrote: These balance discussions remind me of the Starcraft community, particularly SC2.
People would offer solutions but people would scream "NO, I HAVE TO PLAY MY WAY."
Have you even considered trying different strategies? Different unit compositions? This is very rich coming from a Wardhunters player.
An I guess the fact that I also play Tau, Guard, and Dark Angels means nothing, I have been playing Space Wolves since they originally came out in White Dwarf back during the Rogue Trader days and I play Grey Knights I must be a bootlicking Matt Ward Fanboy.
One question though? Are all Necron players Matt Ward bootlicking fanboys now?
While Valace is coming across rather...hostile. He does kind of have a point. The new demon units, and pretty much ONLY the new demon units are a little over the top in terms of damage output.
They are pretty much the perfect all comers unit, and there is almost nothing they cannot beat.
Horde? flamer template death.
MCs? They wound on a 4+, and ignore your save.
Good save/elite troops? Ignoring that save again, so those are points wasted.
Vehicles? A full squad will on average bury a Land Raider in 1 volley, 6 will toast any 3 HP vehicle.
Fast units trying to outrange/kite them? Well, they deepstrike, and move as jump infantry.
Melee troops? Wall of death will average 1 wound of damage output when they get charged per flamer (assuming no invul save). After that, they are still roughly comparable to SM assault marines in melee (minus the weapon skill of course).
Getting shot at? Well, they don't really need cover, since they have multiple wounds, ignore instant death, an invulnerable save built in, and often get the benefit of Fateweaver's aura on top of that.
The annoying thing is that there is no hard counter to them. Telling people to shoot the choppy bits and assault the shooty bits doesn't work here. They are purifiers all over again.
So that leaves focus fire and "tricks", aka, just outplaying the demon player. Sounds all well and good, until you get a demon player that's actually decent and knows how to deal with the tricks. Flamers are also fairly unique in that it will only take 2-3 of them to completely ruin just about any squad in your army from full strength to dead. Most units can be safely ignored once they are reduced well below half strength, but even 2 flamers have a solid chance of killing 5+ marines if they are left alone. I heard someone say that against the new Tzeench toys that any points spend on vehicles or armor saves are basically completely wasted, and I think that about sums up my opinion on them as well. Don't forget they can get comm's arrays now too, so will get the vast majority of their army by the second turn.
Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.
Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.
Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.
Yep. 5th edition tzeentch armies were an auto-lose against any army with more than 2 vehicles. Hence I don't have much sympathy for people whinging about flamers, especially since they seem to be GK/SW.
Carnage43 wrote: While Valace is coming across rather...hostile. He does kind of have a point. The new demon units, and pretty much ONLY the new demon units are a little over the top in terms of damage output.
They are pretty much the perfect all comers unit, and there is almost nothing they cannot beat.
Horde? flamer template death.
MCs? They wound on a 4+, and ignore your save.
Good save/elite troops? Ignoring that save again, so those are points wasted.
Vehicles? A full squad will on average bury a Land Raider in 1 volley, 6 will toast any 3 HP vehicle.
Fast units trying to outrange/kite them? Well, they deepstrike, and move as jump infantry.
Melee troops? Wall of death will average 1 wound of damage output when they get charged per flamer (assuming no invul save). After that, they are still roughly comparable to SM assault marines in melee (minus the weapon skill of course).
Getting shot at? Well, they don't really need cover, since they have multiple wounds, ignore instant death, an invulnerable save built in, and often get the benefit of Fateweaver's aura on top of that.
The annoying thing is that there is no hard counter to them. Telling people to shoot the choppy bits and assault the shooty bits doesn't work here. They are purifiers all over again.
So that leaves focus fire and "tricks", aka, just outplaying the demon player. Sounds all well and good, until you get a demon player that's actually decent and knows how to deal with the tricks. Flamers are also fairly unique in that it will only take 2-3 of them to completely ruin just about any squad in your army from full strength to dead. Most units can be safely ignored once they are reduced well below half strength, but even 2 flamers have a solid chance of killing 5+ marines if they are left alone. I heard someone say that against the new Tzeench toys that any points spend on vehicles or armor saves are basically completely wasted, and I think that about sums up my opinion on them as well. Don't forget they can get comm's arrays now too, so will get the vast majority of their army by the second turn.
Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.
If I come across as a bit hostile I apologize, I just don't like people defending these updated daemons with the "oh well in 5th Grey Knights were so broken and OP they should be reduced to a mid tier army now". I have wanted to play Grey Knights since I first saw them back when they were just 5 terminator librarians an if you have ever seen the list of psychic powers from Rogue Trader you would know they were not something you wanted in front of you. I don't like Matt Ward any more than the rest of you, how GW can give that man free reign with the fluff is a disgrace. I love the mythos behind the C'tan and he basically erased it from 40k history. His story of Draigo is equally as pathetic. That doesn't change the fact that I like deamon hunting Space Marines. Same thing with Space Wolves, I have always loved Space Wolves and it has been my primary army since they first were brought out in WD.
As to me saying I don't run spam lists, well I don't my local scene doesn't either thats not to say we whip out the Vespids, Roughriders, an Ogryns either. We just don't spam. This last tournament we had out of towners come in an they ran daemon and necron spam and if thats the way it has to be, well so be it. You play in a tournament to win, and I won't fault you for bringing a list that can. What I find fault with is GW for making the changes in the first place.
You are exactly right with everything you said. An when there are 27 flamers coming at you, there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do but shoot, shoot, and more shoot. That is why I am equally dissapointed with the Screamers. They can skim and hit you while they are flying at you, and unless you can pump around 20-60 shots into just one unit then you are not going to be able to take them out. An then when you move to assault them you notice base 3 attacks, Str5, I4, and AP2 there isn't really a whole hell of a lot short of a 10 man Purifier unit with Halberds an maybe an HQ attached that can take out a full 9 man unit of screamers. As for their low WS they are still hitting you on a 4+ hell marine on marine is a 4+ but at least you get armour saves. If the Screamers assault you they are coming with 36 attacks. An with bumps from other sources nothing can survive that. Hell even that Herald is a b*tch 5 wounds, eternal warrior, T4, with a 4+ invuln just keep it out of assault range and the daemon player doesn't even have to worry about scattering.
If I sound like a broken record it is because I have seen what spam Flamers and Screamers can do, and I tell you now they are going to be winning alot of tournaments from here on out.
Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.
Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.
Yep. 5th edition tzeentch armies were an auto-lose against any army with more than 2 vehicles. Hence I don't have much sympathy for people whinging about flamers, especially since they seem to be GK/SW.
Well you should be pretty happy now that most SW/GK transports are sitting on shelves now collecting dust.
Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.
Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.
I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.
Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.
I will call you out on that. A Ben Franklin says Flamers will largely stay the same. BOC won't go to AP4 or 5, I can almost guarantee that.
The thing that may happen, and I say MAY, is that daemons may loose eternal warrior. So what? It will be a slight nerf, but it is not like it will make flamers & screamers unviable. They will just be slightly less survivable.
Daemons have always been good, and I would expect the new book to provide another build and more options for the daemon player if anything.
And to the poster above calling me a "daemon player", yeah, I am a daemon player. I am also a Grey Knight player (among other armies). I understand the matchup and the in's and out's of both armies very well.
Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.
Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.
I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.
That would be stupid. They may as well give tyranids vehicles too.
What just comes off as wonky to me, is if I spam a certain unit, I'm good against one thing, slightly good again another, and terrible against something else.
If I spam vendettas with vets, I'm awesome against armor, solid against a mix, terrible against horde. I could run valks, but then I'm decent/solid/solid. No matter what I spam not everything is going to be a cakewalk.
If a daemon player spams flamers and screaners, it's pretty effective against just about anything.
Mech, mixed, varied. True, some lists can be better off offensively against them, but defensively everything gets slapped around.
Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.
Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.
I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.
That would be stupid. They may as well give tyranids vehicles too.
Some type of strange bio tank for the nids might actually be pretty neat model wise and could actually have some potential if the rules for it are written correctly.
Necroshea wrote: What just comes off as wonky to me, is if I spam a certain unit, I'm good against one thing, slightly good again another, and terrible against something else.
If I spam vendettas with vets, I'm awesome against armor, solid against a mix, terrible against horde. I could run valks, but then I'm decent/solid/solid. No matter what I spam not everything is going to be a cakewalk.
If a daemon player spams flamers and screaners, it's pretty effective against just about anything.
Mech, mixed, varied. True, some lists can be better off offensively against them, but defensively everything gets slapped around.
Mass flyers would hurt daemons. You would need those flyers to pump out a lot of shots, a Storm Raven with hurricane bolters, heavy bolter and assualt cannon with psybolt ammo could put a hurting on daemons.
Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.
Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.
I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.
That would be stupid. They may as well give tyranids vehicles too.
Daemons already have the Soul Grinder, why not give them a few more vehicles.
MrScience wrote: Why exactly are GK players whining about Daemons anyway? You can virtually cover the map in warp quakes.
ummm, because if I cover the board in strike squads and interceptor squads I don't have a whole hell of a lot left to deal with other armies. Can GKs beat daemons if they know they are there. sure but it won't be a competitive build. What I will do is include some knights to give the rest of my army breathing room. I was buried under daemons yesterday by the end of turn 2 yesterday that won't happen again.
MrScience wrote: Why exactly are GK players whining about Daemons anyway? You can virtually cover the map in warp quakes.
ummm, because if I cover the board in strike squads and interceptor squads I don't have a whole hell of a lot left to deal with other armies. Can GKs beat daemons if they know they are there. sure but it won't be a competitive build. What I will do is include some knights to give the rest of my army breathing room. I was buried under daemons yesterday by the end of turn 2 yesterday that won't happen again.
Knights running Warp Quake spam can beat daemons 50% of the time. If the GK player goes first, he will most likely win. If the Daemon player goes first, he will most likely win.
It was the same way in 5th.
It is best for Grey Knights to run 2-3 instances of Warp Quake, it leaves more room for a balanced build.
I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...
Carnage43 wrote: While Valace is coming across rather...hostile. He does kind of have a point. The new demon units, and pretty much ONLY the new demon units are a little over the top in terms of damage output.
They are pretty much the perfect all comers unit, and there is almost nothing they cannot beat.
Spoiler:
Horde? flamer template death.
MCs? They wound on a 4+, and ignore your save.
Good save/elite troops? Ignoring that save again, so those are points wasted.
Vehicles? A full squad will on average bury a Land Raider in 1 volley, 6 will toast any 3 HP vehicle.
Fast units trying to outrange/kite them? Well, they deepstrike, and move as jump infantry.
Melee troops? Wall of death will average 1 wound of damage output when they get charged per flamer (assuming no invul save). After that, they are still roughly comparable to SM assault marines in melee (minus the weapon skill of course).
Getting shot at? Well, they don't really need cover, since they have multiple wounds, ignore instant death, an invulnerable save built in, and often get the benefit of Fateweaver's aura on top of that.
The annoying thing is that there is no hard counter to them. Telling people to shoot the choppy bits and assault the shooty bits doesn't work here. They are purifiers all over again.
So that leaves focus fire and "tricks", aka, just outplaying the demon player. Sounds all well and good, until you get a demon player that's actually decent and knows how to deal with the tricks. Flamers are also fairly unique in that it will only take 2-3 of them to completely ruin just about any squad in your army from full strength to dead. Most units can be safely ignored once they are reduced well below half strength, but even 2 flamers have a solid chance of killing 5+ marines if they are left alone. I heard someone say that against the new Tzeench toys that any points spend on vehicles or armor saves are basically completely wasted, and I think that about sums up my opinion on them as well. Don't forget they can get comm's arrays now too, so will get the vast majority of their army by the second turn.
Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.
If I come across as a bit hostile I apologize, I just don't like people defending these updated daemons with the "oh well in 5th Grey Knights were so broken and OP they should be reduced to a mid tier army now". I have wanted to play Grey Knights since I first saw them back when they were just 5 terminator librarians an if you have ever seen the list of psychic powers from Rogue Trader you would know they were not something you wanted in front of you. I don't like Matt Ward any more than the rest of you, how GW can give that man free reign with the fluff is a disgrace. I love the mythos behind the C'tan and he basically erased it from 40k history. His story of Draigo is equally as pathetic. That doesn't change the fact that I like deamon hunting Space Marines. Same thing with Space Wolves, I have always loved Space Wolves and it has been my primary army since they first were brought out in WD.
As to me saying I don't run spam lists, well I don't my local scene doesn't either thats not to say we whip out the Vespids, Roughriders, an Ogryns either. We just don't spam. This last tournament we had out of towners come in an they ran daemon and necron spam and if thats the way it has to be, well so be it. You play in a tournament to win, and I won't fault you for bringing a list that can. What I find fault with is GW for making the changes in the first place.
You are exactly right with everything you said. An when there are 27 flamers coming at you, there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do but shoot, shoot, and more shoot. That is why I am equally dissapointed with the Screamers. They can skim and hit you while they are flying at you, and unless you can pump around 20-60 shots into just one unit then you are not going to be able to take them out. An then when you move to assault them you notice base 3 attacks, Str5, I4, and AP2 there isn't really a whole hell of a lot short of a 10 man Purifier unit with Halberds an maybe an HQ attached that can take out a full 9 man unit of screamers. As for their low WS they are still hitting you on a 4+ hell marine on marine is a 4+ but at least you get armour saves. If the Screamers assault you they are coming with 36 attacks. An with bumps from other sources nothing can survive that. Hell even that Herald is a b*tch 5 wounds, eternal warrior, T4, with a 4+ invuln just keep it out of assault range and the daemon player doesn't even have to worry about scattering.
If I sound like a broken record it is because I have seen what spam Flamers and Screamers can do, and I tell you now they are going to be winning alot of tournaments from here on out.
Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.
Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.
Yep. 5th edition tzeentch armies were an auto-lose against any army with more than 2 vehicles. Hence I don't have much sympathy for people whinging about flamers, especially since they seem to be GK/SW.
Well you should be pretty happy now that most SW/GK transports are sitting on shelves now collecting dust.
I cant really say much about flamer spam when my ork burna wagons could pump out 90 flamer hits (if you hit 6 under the template) dealing about 45 wounds. They would get approx 15 saves. So I would just bubble wrap the wagon then unwrap for death. lootas on a skyshield for the 4+ invul works too.
I will say that flamers are a bit much when burnas lose their overall punch once the wagon pops (and does the moment anyone realizes whats in the wagon) and become very squishy for their damage output. Ideally flamers (like burnas) would be more of a glass cannon with high damage output but low survivability, but that wouldn't sell models now would it?
Put everything in Land Raiders, Rhino's, Razorbacks and Droppods. Let flamers land, toast some sacrificial rhino's or razorbacks. Throw down drop pods with flamer armed marines behind the daemons. Crush 1st wave between remaining vehcials, foot marines and droppods. Then use droppods and broken rhinos to deny good landing spots for Flamers.
Kasrkin229 wrote: I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...
Have to say the main army Iv had trouble against with my daemons is guard, just for the sheer firepower they can put out.
Castle in a corner and odds are the daemon players gona take some serious hurt.
Kasrkin229 wrote: I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...
Have to say the main army Iv had trouble against with my daemons is guard, just for the sheer firepower they can put out.
Castle in a corner and odds are the daemon players gona take some serious hurt.
Its a boring strategy but it works.
Yeah the only real success I've had against a mech guard corner army is when i deep striked as much as i could right next to his army (sure you might mishap terribly with one or two units before you land an icon) but guaranteeing they only have one turn of shooting at your greater daemons et al means that I'm not wiped early....have never actually lost to guard with them but I've had matches where all thats been left is part of a unit of plaguebearers
Kasrkin229 wrote: I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...
Have to say the main army Iv had trouble against with my daemons is guard, just for the sheer firepower they can put out.
Castle in a corner and odds are the daemon players gona take some serious hurt.
Its a boring strategy but it works.
Aye it is very boring , I know but with the way I look at it is , if your going to do something considered " cheesy ( which I couldn't care about ) the. I will do something equally so , of I know I'm fighting daemons I take a punisher leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons ( or several ) but with any " elite " army such as grey knights and demons simply deny their advantsges , grey knights - bring. A. Frak ton of plasma and lascannons. With demons - box up and from a square with you tanks or Ageis defensive lines and shoot them apart on landing . And yes. I hate camping personally , I like getting in your face with 10 tanks and crushing folks under treads but that's just me
Wait, 200+pt units that have to risk mishap by deep striking into flamer range are what is considered overpowered now?
If he wants to get his shots guaranteed thats what he needs to do. otherwise his units have a 19-20" threat range with a jump/flame and are going to do nothing to you especially in the new days of rapid fire.
Couple that with T4 and a 5++ and they are hugely vulnerable to basic weapons fire.
30 Ork Shoota's kill 3.5 fron shooting, lose 6 guys on overwatch and beat the snot out of them in melee.
20 Presciensed/Guided Guardians blow 5 of them away in a single volley, 8 if they are doomed too.
Large squads of Gaunts, Fire Warriors or anyone with a bolter will hammer them and these are all Troop choices...
It's a unit thats actually designed to kill pricey, high toughness models like space marines, they actually gave space marine flavours a bad matchup, thats the thing that shocks me most. Maybe there's hope for GW yet.
To wipe out a squad of them you need to do 24 wounds to a T4 unit. Easy to do unless you're still trying to MSU in boxes, in which case, welcome to 6th.
Dunklezahn wrote: Wait, 200+pt units that have to risk mishap by deep striking into flamer range are what is considered overpowered now?
If he wants to get his shots guaranteed thats what he needs to do. otherwise his units have a 19-20" threat range with a jump/flame and are going to do nothing to you especially in the new days of rapid fire.
Couple that with T4 and a 5++ and they are hugely vulnerable to basic weapons fire.
30 Ork Shoota's kill 3.5 fron shooting, lose 6 guys on overwatch and beat the snot out of them in melee.
20 Presciensed/Guided Guardians blow 5 of them away in a single volley, 8 if they are doomed too.
Large squads of Gaunts, Fire Warriors or anyone with a bolter will hammer them and these are all Troop choices...
It's a unit thats actually designed to kill pricey, high toughness models like space marines, they actually gave space marine flavours a bad matchup, thats the thing that shocks me most. Maybe there's hope for GW yet.
To wipe out a squad of them you need to do 24 wounds to a T4 unit. Easy to do unless you're still trying to MSU in boxes, in which case, welcome to 6th.
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DS -2 WS (doesn't really matter, still hit WS4 on a 4+, and only marginally less staying power against return attacks)
Lose frag/krak grenades (boohoo? You are a shooting unit now, so shouldn't charge, and breath of chaos is better then krak grenades)
Switch bolt pistol for a "flamer pistol" that always wounds and glances on a 4+ and ignores saves.
Make your 3+ save into a 3+ invulnerable save (which is about equal to EW W2 5++)
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearless
Seems like a really good deal doesn't it? Hell, the 3++ save alone is worth 10+ points.
Flamers are appropriately priced these days at closer to 32-40 points, not 23. They doubled their staying power and reduced their cost by a third on a unit that was poor, but not laughably so. Of course they are over the top now.
It would be like giving what is now a mediocre unit, like lets say guardians, a 3+ save, and reducing them from 8 to 6 points....seems silly doesn't it? It would make guardians the new power unit in the game basically. That's exactly what they did with flamers.
Dunklezahn wrote: Wait, 200+pt units that have to risk mishap by deep striking into flamer range are what is considered overpowered now?
If he wants to get his shots guaranteed thats what he needs to do. otherwise his units have a 19-20" threat range with a jump/flame and are going to do nothing to you especially in the new days of rapid fire.
Couple that with T4 and a 5++ and they are hugely vulnerable to basic weapons fire.
30 Ork Shoota's kill 3.5 fron shooting, lose 6 guys on overwatch and beat the snot out of them in melee.
20 Presciensed/Guided Guardians blow 5 of them away in a single volley, 8 if they are doomed too.
Large squads of Gaunts, Fire Warriors or anyone with a bolter will hammer them and these are all Troop choices...
It's a unit thats actually designed to kill pricey, high toughness models like space marines, they actually gave space marine flavours a bad matchup, thats the thing that shocks me most. Maybe there's hope for GW yet.
To wipe out a squad of them you need to do 24 wounds to a T4 unit. Easy to do unless you're still trying to MSU in boxes, in which case, welcome to 6th.
Orcs maybe but they have to get within 18" maybe thats doable if Screamers haven't already strafed the orcs and then blocked them from the flamers, if the flamers get a good drop and that is possible you don't have 30 left.
20 guardians shooting 40 shots unbuffed hit 20 times and then wound maybe 7 times after that. Daemons make 2 saves they have lost 2 total. Even if they have rerolls they are still only hitting 30 times wounding 10 of those and the daemons prolly save 3 of them so he loses 3 with rerolls. Dice rolls can go either way but odds say they should kill only about 3. Even if the daemons are doomed they only lose 5. An thats if they are within 12 inches how in the hell did a daemon player let his flamers get that close without having killed off some of those guardians? Maybe a really bad scatter I guess. So those 3 remaining flamers come in and cook the entire unit of guardians. The problem here isn't that you can't hurt them. Nothing in this game is invincible but after you blast away with those guardians the remaining Flamers even if there are only 2-3 are going to go in an cook that entire unit. I saw it happen I killed 8 flamers and couldn't off the last one he came in and toasted 5 Grey Hunters, and screamers mopped up the rest. Shoot 2 units of guardians into them, ok fine now you have dumped 320 points worth of shooting into a 200 point squad. Not a good trade off point wise especially when there are 1-2 other flamer units running around.
Now we will look at Fire Warriors, they get within 15 to rapid fire and dump 24 shots into the Flamers, 12 hit and around 7-8 wound deamons make 2-3 saves so they have lost 3 flamers at best the remaining 6 come in and cook the fire warriors.
Now a 300 point termagaunt brood with devourers are going to do some damage but why in the world would you stick 300 points into a gaunt brood. with 3 shots a piece at WS3 you are going to get around 60 shots and then wound 30 of those yea the daemons are in trouble but they just got smacked by a 300point gaunt brood. That brood does sound pretty damn vicious. If there was a way to get divination for them jesus that would be a lot of pain.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.
The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.
The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.
He can take a chaos icon. a herald with chariot, bolt, breath of chaos and Icon is 150points. That is along with 5 wounds, T4, eternal warrior, and 4+ invuln.
The stars were aligned against me in the game I played last weekend it really was. He rolled the warlord trait that allowed rerolls for reserves and made very good deepstrike rolls with his chariot and screamers, his flamers ended up a little back of where he wanted them. I was able to chew up the flamers and the screamers who were in my face but I couldn't spare any shots to kill that chariot almost all of his reserves ended (which included another unit of flamers and screamers) up in my face on turn 2.
Xeriapt wrote: Iv played primary Tzeentch Daemons for years so Iv always played with a fair few Screamers and Flamers.
Since the WD update though Iv just swapped to playing my DE.
Your a cool dude then. I take it you value friends, because it you didn't I'm sure you'd still be running your demons but have upgraded to max screamers and flamers.
juraigamer wrote: Tzeentch demons are the problem with demons, not the other 3 gods.
As it stands, Tzeentch demon spam, nercon flier spam are armies I will refuse to play against.
ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really lovedd tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around
I can kind of see where he's coming from. I wouldn't refuse to play any army, but if in a non-tournament game someone had a GK force that spammed Warp Quake, I'd probably concede if I didn't go first. If he had enough Warp Quake to cover the board I wouldn't waste my time playing him if he went first. So before deploying anything, we'd roll to see how went first, then roll to see if either of could seize the initiative.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.
The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.
He can take a chaos icon. a herald with chariot, bolt, breath of chaos and Icon is 150points. That is along with 5 wounds, T4, eternal warrior, and 4+ invuln.
And it still doesn't reduce Deep Strike scatter (until the turn after the Icon lands).
Is he still an IC with the chariot? If so, that's a 350 point unit. If not - are you trying to say you can't kill a W5 T4 4+invul model in one turn? Are you serious?
Testify wrote: Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?
Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.
Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.
Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?
I've always played Flamers, but before the WD update, they were playing as throwaway squads of three. When the WD update first came out I ran large groups of Flamers for a while but it did feel cheap, so I've scaled them back to 3-4 per squad, even in tournaments. I've always like the MCs better anyway.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.
The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.
He can take a chaos icon. a herald with chariot, bolt, breath of chaos and Icon is 150points. That is along with 5 wounds, T4, eternal warrior, and 4+ invuln.
And it still doesn't reduce Deep Strike scatter (until the turn after the Icon lands).
Is he still an IC with the chariot? If so, that's a 350 point unit. If not - are you trying to say you can't kill a W5 T4 4+invul model in one turn? Are you serious?
Well lets see, the flamers he dropped in were going to come in on his next turn and start roasting my units, he already had screamers in my face killing Long Fangs and the Herald. Again who do you focus on, the Flamers, the Screamers, or the Herald? It took 1 unit of Grey Hunters rapid firing and another unit of Grey Hunters firing single shot and a Vindicator shot to get the Flamer unit down to 1 model left. I put my Long Fangs (what was left after the initial Screamer strafing run, he managed to kill of 4 missile launchers) and another 15 Grey Hunter shots into the Screamers and whittled them down to 1. Didn't leave a lot to shoot at a 5W, T4, Eternal Warrior, and 4+ invuln model.
What do I shoot at in that situation. I had a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry kill off that last screamer. Silly me for taking Thunderwolf Cavalry, I looked at the stats for the Screamers and said WTF AP2 at I4, they nerfed power weapons only to allow this? How in the hell can they be AP2.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
undertow wrote: I've always played Flamers, but before the WD update, they were playing as throwaway squads of three. When the WD update first came out I ran large groups of Flamers for a while but it did feel cheap, so I've scaled them back to 3-4 per squad, even in tournaments. I've always like the MCs better anyway.
IMOMCs are eye candy in a spam Flamer/Screamer army.
Testify wrote: Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?
Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.
Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.
Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?
Priority should be the Herald then the Flamers with shooting, then assault priority the Herald and the Screamers.
Testify wrote: Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?
Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.
Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.
Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?
So your Long Fangs, each of them BS4 with Frag Missiles, couldn't take out deep-strike clustered screamers (who, since they were next to your long fangs, would have been out of range of their own icons and easily in miss-hap territory)?
I thought most Space Wolf players took 3 squads of Long Fangs too. That's 12 plates,
Testify wrote: Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?
Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.
Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.
Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?
So your Long Fangs, each of them BS4 with Frag Missiles, couldn't take out deep-strike clustered screamers (who, since they were next to your long fangs, would have been out of range of their own icons and easily in miss-hap territory)?
I thought most Space Wolf players took 3 squads of Long Fangs too. That's 12 plates,
The Screamers did their skimming run and landed next to the Skyshield Landing Pad I had my Long Fangs perched on they took out most of the missiles in that unit and landed out of sight of my third Long Fang squad I put 2 Lascannons and 3 missiles into them, one of the missiles scattered out of range, the 2nd hit only 3, and the 3rd hit 5 I think. So I ended up with a couple lascannon shots, 8 str4 frag hits and around 30 bolter shots(they weren't all bolter I had some melta an plasma in there but its all the same to daemons). I think I did well dealing 16 wounds. An they deep striked where they wanted to they didn't scatter.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Fearless troops are immune to being swept too, and they don't need to auto-regroup because they never break. Never mind pinning tests.
Are you talking about ATSKNF combined with Combat tactics and being able to break via the auto-fail? Which is solid, but remember that only like 1 out of 5-ish marine armies have combat tactics.
Or are we talking about losing a combat, failing a morale test, succeeding on the sweeping advance roll then auto-rallying and getting another shooting phase/charge in? Because that's fairly uncommon and is double edged if they break in the wrong turn and allow your opponent's unit free to go after other targets or just re-shoot/charge you.
And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.
valace2 490877 5017237 null wrote:The Screamers did their skimming run and landed next to the Skyshield Landing Pad I had my Long Fangs perched on they took out most of the missiles in that unit and landed out of sight of my third Long Fang squad I put 2 Lascannons and 3 missiles into them, one of the missiles scattered out of range, the 2nd hit only 3, and the 3rd hit 5 I think. So I ended up with a couple lascannon shots, 8 str4 frag hits and around 30 bolter shots(they weren't all bolter I had some melta an plasma in there but its all the same to daemons). I think I did well dealing 16 wounds. An they deep striked where they wanted to they didn't scatter.
How about not placing your long fangs where they can be swept over by screamers? Adjusting your deployment to your opponents army is basic stuff.
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Carnage43 wrote: And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.
I've grown to love the forced DS. It grants an amazing amount of flexibility to respond to your opponent. I don't even use Icons, and rarely use a skyshield pad unless it's a 2000+ point game.
Carnage43 wrote: Fearless troops are immune to being swept too, and they don't need to auto-regroup because they never break. Never mind pinning tests.
Yes, Fearless troops lose the 3" free movement on regroup.
Are you talking about ATSKNF combined with Combat tactics and being able to break via the auto-fail? Which is solid, but remember that only like 1 out of 5-ish marine armies have combat tactics.
That, and failing the LD test when you lose models to shooting, falling back (meaning you likely are our of range for assault), autoregroup and shoot the thing that shot you.
Or are we talking about losing a combat, failing a morale test, succeeding on the sweeping advance roll then auto-rallying and getting another shooting phase/charge in? Because that's fairly uncommon and is double edged if they break in the wrong turn and allow your opponent's unit free to go after other targets or just re-shoot/charge you.
IME it's relatively common actually.
And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.
And if you aren't being aggressive your opponent has much more time to deal with you. The OPs complaint was that everything was in his face. That kind of deployment is risky.
Gunnvulcan wrote: I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?
That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".
People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.
So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday
Almost as if they want to play the army that they enjoy playing, and that they want balanced competitive play.
I have a really solid question for you, who in their right mind would even bother with a game in which only one army is viable and the entire table is filled with WAACers? If Games Workshop isn't going to fix their game, it's up to the playerbase to do it. I'm surprised anybody at your local gameshop would bother with that kind of attitude.
Then again, Games Workshop said it their self, dude. It's in the rulebook. The most important rule is to have fun, irrespective of whatever else the rulebook says. If you aren't having fun and treating your opponents with respect, you're doing it wrong.
a) Don't take loads of meltas, plasmas, lascannons and other big guns! Daemons don't care and we love it when you still play like it's 5th edition and transporthammer!
Instead, sprinkle in some flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons & autocannons alongside your basic 'oodles of bolter Troops and suddenly we start liking things alot less... Daemons should be treated exactly like Orks or Tyranids or hoard IG. If you're trying to treat them like another MEQ army, well, good for you sunshine, you missed to boat on that one!
b) Don't spread your forces out when you deploy!!!
Daemons love it when MEQ's especially spread out and try to cover multiple areas. Why? Because we're really good at killing MEQ's & TEQ's, weather by shooting with Flamers, or chopping them with Screamers, 'Curshers, Fiends, Seekers, etc...
Castle-up. Play a refused flank deployment. STICK TOGETHER!!! Massed infantry all staying within support range of multiple units is an utter nightmare for Daemons because we're made of glass with only a few units actually bosting an armour save. Yes, the Daemons player will cause some damage and you will lose units. But we can't cause enough damage to a well defended infantry line because unlike every other army, we can only ever start with 50% of our forces!!!
c) Chariot Heralds of all alligneces are no longer IC's. So it's not like they're a hard target to pop. And here's a bigger hint; kill the Icon/s first! Make the Daemon player either take big risks to land the rest of their force, or else keep their drops at arms length.
d) Screamers are less terrifying when you're charging them. At the end of the day, when assault is inevitable, CHARGE! Deny the Screamers their bonus attacks, while you gain that bonus yourself. 10 Grey Hunters is easily capable of beating 5 Screamers on the charge. Yes you'll lose a few, but outside of wonky dice, you should win that fight! (30 attacks hitting on 3's vs 15 attack hitting on 4's?! on average you cause 10 wounds before saves to his meager 4-5 and likely wipe the squad...)
If you're really paranoid about Screamers, get some Storm Shields! Suddenly those Screamers now suck again as they're tarpitted by a better squad who hard-counters their biggest advantage.
As for Warp Quake and needing an 'uncompetitive' army to do so? Just shows you've never actually used WQ ever... Consider that only 1 ten-man squad, fully spaced out its max 2" coherency covers an automatic mishap area roughly 22"x30"! That's the auto-mishap area my friend.
30 Warp Quake models is all you need to give a Daemon player a viable deployment zone of just roughly 6"x8"... So, unless you're telling me that 20 Strikes + 10 Interceptors make for a horrible auto-lose army, you're just blowing smoke. (hint: that's actually a really freaking solid base to an army! Espeically when you can cheaply give the Strikes S5 basic guns, a pair of Psycannons and a cheap transport for another S6 multi-shot gun!)
All this thread is, is simply whining about bringing a poorly equiped 'Scissors' army against a spam list that turned out to be 'Rock'.
Try deploying with a bit of common sense and bringing something beyond melta/plasma/lascannons/krak rockets/vindicator and things should turn out a bit differently.
Bring 10 Strikes and lay them at the front of your army and if you win first turn and cast Warp Quake, well, no point even playing the game at that point - you just won by default of forcing the Daemons to land at least 20" away from you!
valace2 490877 5017237 null wrote:The Screamers did their skimming run and landed next to the Skyshield Landing Pad I had my Long Fangs perched on they took out most of the missiles in that unit and landed out of sight of my third Long Fang squad I put 2 Lascannons and 3 missiles into them, one of the missiles scattered out of range, the 2nd hit only 3, and the 3rd hit 5 I think. So I ended up with a couple lascannon shots, 8 str4 frag hits and around 30 bolter shots(they weren't all bolter I had some melta an plasma in there but its all the same to daemons). I think I did well dealing 16 wounds. An they deep striked where they wanted to they didn't scatter.
How about not placing your long fangs where they can be swept over by screamers? Adjusting your deployment to your opponents army is basic stuff.
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Carnage43 wrote: And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.
I've grown to love the forced DS. It grants an amazing amount of flexibility to respond to your opponent. I don't even use Icons, and rarely use a skyshield pad unless it's a 2000+ point game.
Must be nice to have never lost a game. I bet you are undefeated aren't you, such a superior tactician and list builder. Man I wish i could be you. Just like the guy who went undefeated in 5th against the broken Grey Knights. with his daemons. Next time I will deploy my army against a foe not yet on the board just a little better. Better yet could I get your phone number so I could call you an make sure I do it correctly?
a) Don't take loads of meltas, plasmas, lascannons and other big guns! Daemons don't care and we love it when you still play like it's 5th edition and transporthammer!
Instead, sprinkle in some flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons & autocannons alongside your basic 'oodles of bolter Troops and suddenly we start liking things alot less... Daemons should be treated exactly like Orks or Tyranids or hoard IG. If you're trying to treat them like another MEQ army, well, good for you sunshine, you missed to boat on that one!
b) Don't spread your forces out when you deploy!!!
Daemons love it when MEQ's especially spread out and try to cover multiple areas. Why? Because we're really good at killing MEQ's & TEQ's, weather by shooting with Flamers, or chopping them with Screamers, 'Curshers, Fiends, Seekers, etc...
Castle-up. Play a refused flank deployment. STICK TOGETHER!!! Massed infantry all staying within support range of multiple units is an utter nightmare for Daemons because we're made of glass with only a few units actually bosting an armour save. Yes, the Daemons player will cause some damage and you will lose units. But we can't cause enough damage to a well defended infantry line because unlike every other army, we can only ever start with 50% of our forces!!!
c) Chariot Heralds of all alligneces are no longer IC's. So it's not like they're a hard target to pop. And here's a bigger hint; kill the Icon/s first! Make the Daemon player either take big risks to land the rest of their force, or else keep their drops at arms length.
d) Screamers are less terrifying when you're charging them. At the end of the day, when assault is inevitable, CHARGE! Deny the Screamers their bonus attacks, while you gain that bonus yourself. 10 Grey Hunters is easily capable of beating 5 Screamers on the charge. Yes you'll lose a few, but outside of wonky dice, you should win that fight! (30 attacks hitting on 3's vs 15 attack hitting on 4's?! on average you cause 10 wounds before saves to his meager 4-5 and likely wipe the squad...)
If you're really paranoid about Screamers, get some Storm Shields! Suddenly those Screamers now suck again as they're tarpitted by a better squad who hard-counters their biggest advantage.
As for Warp Quake and needing an 'uncompetitive' army to do so? Just shows you've never actually used WQ ever... Consider that only 1 ten-man squad, fully spaced out its max 2" coherency covers an automatic mishap area roughly 22"x30"! That's the auto-mishap area my friend.
30 Warp Quake models is all you need to give a Daemon player a viable deployment zone of just roughly 6"x8"... So, unless you're telling me that 20 Strikes + 10 Interceptors make for a horrible auto-lose army, you're just blowing smoke. (hint: that's actually a really freaking solid base to an army! Espeically when you can cheaply give the Strikes S5 basic guns, a pair of Psycannons and a cheap transport for another S6 multi-shot gun!)
All this thread is, is simply whining about bringing a poorly equiped 'Scissors' army against a spam list that turned out to be 'Rock'.
Try deploying with a bit of common sense and bringing something beyond melta/plasma/lascannons/krak rockets/vindicator and things should turn out a bit differently.
Bring 10 Strikes and lay them at the front of your army and if you win first turn and cast Warp Quake, well, no point even playing the game at that point - you just won by default of forcing the Daemons to land at least 20" away from you!
Oh my holy god where to start. Grey Hunters might be able to kill off a 5 man unit of Screamers, did they cause 4 wounds with their bolt pistols? In the standard board setup with terrain how do you fit 40-50 Grey Hunters 2 Vindicators, a skyshield landing pad, an 5 thunderwolf cavalry without spreading that out. Bunch up the Grey Hunters and Cav so they are nice an juicy targets for templates or blasts or try to space them out? Oh wise an awesome player how do you get all that together?
The next time I will sprinkle in some flamers and assault cannons and take some dreadnoughts because they are the only way to get autocannons in a Grey Knight or Space Wolf army(space wolves can take predators ooooohh predators with autocannons gives me chills just thinking about it). Course those flamers aren't going to do me a whole hell of lot of good when Deathwing is coming at me, or other marine terminator units. Guess I can just warm em up a bit before they kill me.
How exactly do Grey Hunters or Grey Knights get Storm Shields? Did I miss something? It costs 48 points to get a Wolf Guard Terminator a Storm Shield to go along with a power weapon (what will that do against a daemon?) and a basic Wolf Guard model with a Storm Shield is 43 points with a bolt pistol. Also is there some super secret way for Grey Knights to get a Storm Shields?
As for Warp Quake this was the first time we have had more than one daemon player at one of our tournaments our resident daemon player doesn't use cheese even though I wouldn't blame him for upping his flamer count an picking up some Screamers. An yes I know full well what Warp Quake can do and if you hadn't noticed any tournament list I make from now on will either include GK allies or be the primary themselves. As I said above my experience with daemons is limited.
What exactly is a scissors army? Yep poorly equipped army that lost 10-9 to a Necron/Orc force that had 3 flyers when I had no quad gun or flyers of my own(doom scythes are hadcore) , and soundly thumped a decent vanilla marine list.
Yep my bad, can I get your phone number so I can have you fix my list before the next tournament, because obviously I have no idea what I am doing. Thunderwolf Cavalry WTF was I thinking.
lol just noticed your comment on the Strike Squad. hehehe thats funny thanks for making me laugh. You do realize thats 290 points for that squad right. lol. Compared to a 207 point flamer unit that has nearly twice as many wounds. Thats 860 points for just the Strike Squads an 1 interceptor squad. If you go first yes Deamons are screwed, I would go with a 2nd Interceptor squad because that guarantees that the Deamons auto lose of course its nearly if I go first. Now tell me how that is supposed to beat Orcs, Imp Guard, or Blood Angels?
valace2 wrote: Must be nice to have never lost a game. I bet you are undefeated aren't you, such a superior tactician and list builder. Man I wish i could be you. Just like the guy who went undefeated in 5th against the broken Grey Knights. with his daemons. Next time I will deploy my army against a foe not yet on the board just a little better. Better yet could I get your phone number so I could call you an make sure I do it correctly?
Given the amount of whining you're doing in this thread and your general refusal to take advice, I don't think any amount of phone calls can help you. There are numerous Daemon players in this thread telling you what works against us and you just don't want to listen. I'll give it one last try though, it's actually pretty simple:
1. you know that the opponent can DS anywhere on the board.
2. you know he has units that can turbo-boost over your units and inflict sweeping attacks.
3. deploy your units in such a way that your opponent has to make a risky DS to be able to sweep your stuff or can't sweep them because he can't fit his Screamers in a good spot after the turbo boost. For example: put your longfangs in a corner. or other board edge. If he can't fly over you and land on the other side, he can't sweep you.
As I already said, responding to your enemy's deployment (or potential deployment) is a basic part of this game, like spacing units out so they don't get as many hits from blast markers and templates.
Also, your responses sound like an angry 12 year old wrote them. Many of the people posting in this thread are trying to help you and offer advice.
Valance please, man up. Whining, moaning and sarcasm won't do anything. Stop acting like a dick and open thy ears (or eyes), be respectful and there is much help on Dakka. Be prepared to back down, admit that you are overreacting and take on our advice. We are trying to be helpful but patience is limited.
No army is unbeatable, a couple of bad experiences is no where near enough to cry cheese and broken. If you continue to lose then maybe you should learn from your mistakes.
Grey Knights are just marines with a few extras. Blow up any transports and shoot them. Paladins die easily enough from S8 and above, guess what? - T4, 2 Wounds and a 5+* is exactly what Flamers have.
Flamers die easily enough from high volume fire, learn to use your units effectively. Prepare to take losses, charge with them with more than one unit and tie them up for the remainder of the game. There is a large amount of danger in trying to Deepstrike a large army. Even then they may not come in on the turn to Daemon player wants. Yes they are cheap, but why is a Space Wolf player complaining when Grey Hunters are 15pts each, you have Long Fangs and you HQ's have a very large range of customisation.
OK, fire your Vindicator at Horrors or Screamers, more will be taken off that way. Charge TWC into any more Horrors. You think 4+* is good? Why no Storm Shields on your TWC? Flamers and Screamers are easy fry for Grey Hunters (BTW they are AP2 because they can bite into Starships).
Why not try charging Flamers with your TWC. Have two Squads of 3 with two Battle Leaders as cheap as possible on Thunder Wolves. All with Storm Shields. Guess what? You now have T5, 2 Wound Cavalry with a 3+*. Overwatch shouldn't be overwhelming if you whittle them down with Long Fangs. Now they need 5's to hit and wound the Battle Leader, you get 5 attacks each on the charge, don't bother with power weapons if you want to optimise for points.
A stand alone Herald is an easy target regardless of wounds and save.
Congratulations, you have just list tailored, please tell me this isn't cheating either.
phantommaster wrote: Valance please, man up. Whining, moaning and sarcasm won't do anything. Stop acting like a dick and open thy ears (or eyes), be respectful and there is much help on Dakka. Be prepared to back down, admit that you are overreacting and take on our advice. We are trying to be helpful but patience is limited.
No army is unbeatable, a couple of bad experiences is no where near enough to cry cheese and broken. If you continue to lose then maybe you should learn from your mistakes.
Grey Knights are just marines with a few extras. Blow up any transports and shoot them. Paladins die easily enough from S8 and above, guess what? - T4, 2 Wounds and a 5+* is exactly what Flamers have.
Flamers die easily enough from high volume fire, learn to use your units effectively. Prepare to take losses, charge with them with more than one unit and tie them up for the remainder of the game. There is a large amount of danger in trying to Deepstrike a large army. Even then they may not come in on the turn to Daemon player wants. Yes they are cheap, but why is a Space Wolf player complaining when Grey Hunters are 15pts each, you have Long Fangs and you HQ's have a very large range of customisation.
OK, fire your Vindicator at Horrors or Screamers, more will be taken off that way. Charge TWC into any more Horrors. You think 4+* is good? Why no Storm Shields on your TWC? Flamers and Screamers are easy fry for Grey Hunters (BTW they are AP2 because they can bite into Starships).
Why not try charging Flamers with your TWC. Have two Squads of 3 with two Battle Leaders as cheap as possible on Thunder Wolves. All with Storm Shields. Guess what? You now have T5, 2 Wound Cavalry with a 3+*. Overwatch shouldn't be overwhelming if you whittle them down with Long Fangs. Now they need 5's to hit and wound the Battle Leader, you get 5 attacks each on the charge, don't bother with power weapons if you want to optimise for points.
A stand alone Herald is an easy target regardless of wounds and save.
Congratulations, you have just list tailored, please tell me this isn't cheating either.
I am gonna let this rest, because frankly it is boring the hell out of me, an being called a 12 year old hurts my feelings.
A Paladin fails his 2+ save(he should make that save I know) to a Krak missile and what happens? Ya know what forget the krak missile say a Lascannon hits a Paladin an he fails his 5+ save(very very possible) and what happens? You have a dead 55 point terminator. You shoot a Krak or a Lascannon round at a Flamer OR a Screamer what happens? They laugh it off an keep coming. Lets compare points because you want to compare Flamers to Paladins 9 Flamers = 207 points, 9 Paladins no Psycannons 495 points and what happens The Paladins have to get within 24" to be able to shoot them with Storm Bolters, you have 18 shots hit with say 13 of them wound 7 and the daemon fails all 7 he still has 6 flamers to jump in and cook Paladins, 2 wounds or not you are going to lose a lot of Paladins.
You don't think I understand the tactics? Shoot them, shoot them some more, and if any of your people are still alive keep shooting. Then turn around and face Tyranids and die because Storm Bolters aren't going to hurt t6 MC's, or Night Scythes come in and death ray your units into swiss cheese.
You would honestly go after the Herald and sacrifice an entire unit of troops? What happens after that unit dies you have a 9 man unit of flamers in your lines cooking all of your pretty power armoured marines? You guys seem to think Deep Strike is this evil thing that never works. If anything 6th has made it easier to deep striking units. Well if they roll the result that allows me to place them as far away from me as possible, Screamers will be back in a couple of turns, Flamers who mishap in turn 1 would be back by turn 3.
Anyway IMO an that of several others in this thread Screamers and Flamers are so over the top good now, it really is digusting I would place them at 1st and 3rd with Assault Terminators in at the 2nd spot.
Best bits of advice I have seen people offer so far to stop daemons are probably, castle up, dividing your force will see you picked apart and dont max out of anti-vehicle stuff.
I actually get around this a very evil way... I play deathwing. Usually in the middle of the game I have one squad really low in termies and one that is untouched (usually the counter assault squad with all the lightning claws). I have the maybe one last member (sometimes two) charge the flamers first, they either die or survive with their storm shields, and the 5 lightning claws come in and rape.
As someone who does play a lot of Deathwing however, it is somewhat annoying that one unit of 9 flamers can literally cook an entire terminator squad and not die to missiles.
fidel wrote: I actually get around this a very evil way... I play deathwing. Usually in the middle of the game I have one squad really low in termies and one that is untouched (usually the counter assault squad with all the lightning claws). I have the maybe one last member (sometimes two) charge the flamers first, they either die or survive with their storm shields, and the 5 lightning claws come in and rape.
As someone who does play a lot of Deathwing however, it is somewhat annoying that one unit of 9 flamers can literally cook an entire terminator squad and not die to missiles.
That is really my point. After that Vindicator shot, I decided that I would rather face 500 orcs than spam Flamers/Screamers. You put a 10 man TH/SS termator squad on the table against a 9 man unit of flamers 31" apart and the Flamers will rape that Terminator Unit. A unit of Screamers won't fare as well as the Flamers but they will still cripple the terminator squad. Their offensive capabilities aside 2 wound eternal warrior squads were a horrible idea.
I just had to laugh at the people who called a squad of thunder wolves with storm shields a cheap counter to flamers.
A squad of five thunderwolves with storm shields is 400 points. Throw in the battle leader and you're over 550. Will such a squad mash a 200 point squad of flamers? Probably, but there isn't much else in your army. Two squads? Fuggedaboutit.
The challenge was simple enough. Propose an all-comers Space Wolf army that can deal with the range of armies you'd find in a tournament, along with a flamer/screamer heavy daemon list.
Telling someone to switch out their heavy and special weapons for flamers and heavy bolters does no good, because even if those gave an advantage against daemons they'd leave the player hamstrung when fighting armies with armour or monstrous creatures.
The flexibility of missile launchers provides some options, but if we assume that you get three hits per template, that's still only one wound per missile, you need 18 wounds to destroy a flamer squad, and you do need to destroy it.
If a full Long Fang pack could be guaranteed to inflict five wounds on a flamer squad, you'd still need more than the spammed three full squads of Long Fangs (around 400 points) to completely destroy one squad.
A Grey Hunter pack firing 8 bolters and 2 plasma guns at short range will inflict about 5 wounds on the squad also, so again you need more than three squads to take down one. Of course concentration of fire is important, but that's 600 points of Grey Hunters shooting 200 points of flamers, and not shooting the other 1650 points in the daemon army.
If I were the daemon player I'd be very happy with that arrangement.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote: I just had to laugh at the people who called a squad of thunder wolves with storm shields a cheap counter to flamers.
A squad of five thunderwolves with storm shields is 400 points. Throw in the battle leader and you're over 550. Will such a squad mash a 200 point squad of flamers? Probably, but there isn't much else in your army. Two squads? Fuggedaboutit.
The challenge was simple enough. Propose an all-comers Space Wolf army that can deal with the range of armies you'd find in a tournament, along with a flamer/screamer heavy daemon list.
Telling someone to switch out their heavy and special weapons for flamers and heavy bolters does no good, because even if those gave an advantage against daemons they'd leave the player hamstrung when fighting armies with armour or monstrous creatures.
The flexibility of missile launchers provides some options, but if we assume that you get three hits per template, that's still only one wound per missile, you need 18 wounds to destroy a flamer squad, and you do need to destroy it.
If a full Long Fang pack could be guaranteed to inflict five wounds on a flamer squad, you'd still need more than the spammed three full squads of Long Fangs (around 400 points) to completely destroy one squad.
A Grey Hunter pack firing 8 bolters and 2 plasma guns at short range will inflict about 5 wounds on the squad also, so again you need more than three squads to take down one. Of course concentration of fire is important, but that's 600 points of Grey Hunters shooting 200 points of flamers, and not shooting the other 1650 points in the daemon army.
If I were the daemon player I'd be very happy with that arrangement.
You sir are my hero (an I mean that in a good way). My frustration at the constant just shoot them a bunch comments was beginning to boil over, hence the sarcasm.
You hit the nail on the head it is very very difficult to build an all comers list that will affectively deal with Screamers and Flamers, and you hit the nail on the head with the Thunderwolves.
Think about it like this, because this was pretty much what happened last weekend. You are sitting around a poker table playing Texas Hold Em with a group of guys an people get up a bit or down a bit, an a couple guys walk up to join the game an are just given an Ace as one of their two down cards each hand. Will they win every hand because of this? No prolly not but they will win more than their share thats for sure. Thats what Flamers an Screamers do for Daemons. No other codex has multiple game breaking units.
An after the results of tournaments like Ard Boyz an Adepticon start rolling in, this will all be confirmed.
GW's product releases are brilliant they really are. Flak missiles in the new CSM codex proves that after 6th came out their was a spike in flyer sales, so GW has to do something to counter that so we have Flak missiles, an the rumored 2nd wave of new flyers. Its pretty much a given that each new codex will have some sort of flyer defense. So flyer sales will dry up a bit but they will be selling more anti flyer stuff so its a wash. Same with Daemons right now they are prolly selling the crap out of them now, but when a new codex comes out in a year they will come down to earth.
Treat Flamers & Screamers like you would a hoard of Orks or Genestealers.
we're not saying trade in every last bit of anti-tank for pure anti-infantry, what we're saying is don't go full-on anti-mech/TEQ and expect it do against Daemons! Just like you wouldn't max-out on meltas/plasmas or vindicators to tackle Orks or Tyranids!
Castle-up you deployment. If you don't think you can safely fit 40+ 'Hunters, a Skyshield platform, Thunderwolves et all in there, then drop something huge like the Skyshield pad and get an Aegis line instead!
And when you castle-up, there's very little room for those Daemons to safely land and alpha-strike you when they're using larger squads. As pointed out, there's also far less room for those annoying Screamers to do their fly-by attacks as there won't be sufficient room to place them in a decent formation afterwards. (if at all!)
You want a good SW list to counter Flamers/Screamer spam? Try something like;
HQ: 2x Rune Priests w/Living Lightning
Elites: Wolf Guard w/Storm shields. Even 5 of 'em will do.
Troops: 2x Grey Hunters w/Plasma or Melta + 1-2x Grey Hunters w/Flamers
Fast: 2x Land Speeders w/asscans and Multi-melta (if you fear big gribblies or other armoured opponents) or Heavy Bolters (if you want a small, specialised anti-infantry unit)
Heavy: 2x Longfangs w/2 Heavy Bolters + 3 Missile launchers & 1x Longfangs w/Missile launchers. (place both Priests in one of the first two squads)
There. A nice solid all-rounder that isn't overly focused on just one type of opponent. And if you still really fear armoured opponents, then swap those plasmas for meltas. If you don't want to sink pts into Storm Shield Wolf Guard, then ally in an Inquisitor and a big unit of Crusaders + Deathcults w/power mauls. Or try out Fenrisian Wolves as cheap assaulters, or look into allying in some Hammernators... (or even god-forbid, you bring in a big squad of Blood Claws led by a Wolf Priest who only gives them 'Prefered Enemy - whatever!')
Bring back your transports for a couple of your squads. Daemons suck at ranged anti-armour, so laugh as they waste their turn frying cheap transports, only to then sit there in rapid fire and counter-assault range!
Space Wolves are well equiped to deal with Daemons. Grey Knights don't even have to try!
Hell, with Grey Knights, you can for example counter those 'OP Screamers' with basic sword-wielding Termies who get a 4++, or better yet, multi-wound Pallies w/swords... or bring out ANYthing with Halberds! Or go for the extreme overkill of funny 'nades in a squad of power maul Deathcults... The list goes on.
Seriously, 40k Daemons are nowhere near the OP levels of 5th ed GK's, or 6th ed Flyer spam...
...or god forbid, 7th ed Fantasy Daemons!!! (you've never seen what "OMG broken!1!!1!!!11!" REALLY is until you've suffered 7th ed Fantasy Daemons...)
Experiment 626 wrote: Treat Flamers & Screamers like you would a hoard of Orks or Genestealers.
we're not saying trade in every last bit of anti-tank for pure anti-infantry, what we're saying is don't go full-on anti-mech/TEQ and expect it do against Daemons! Just like you wouldn't max-out on meltas/plasmas or vindicators to tackle Orks or Tyranids!
Castle-up you deployment. If you don't think you can safely fit 40+ 'Hunters, a Skyshield platform, Thunderwolves et all in there, then drop something huge like the Skyshield pad and get an Aegis line instead!
And when you castle-up, there's very little room for those Daemons to safely land and alpha-strike you when they're using larger squads. As pointed out, there's also far less room for those annoying Screamers to do their fly-by attacks as there won't be sufficient room to place them in a decent formation afterwards. (if at all!)
You want a good SW list to counter Flamers/Screamer spam? Try something like;
HQ: 2x Rune Priests w/Living Lightning
Elites: Wolf Guard w/Storm shields. Even 5 of 'em will do.
Troops: 2x Grey Hunters w/Plasma or Melta + 1-2x Grey Hunters w/Flamers
Fast: 2x Land Speeders w/asscans and Multi-melta (if you fear big gribblies or other armoured opponents) or Heavy Bolters (if you want a small, specialised anti-infantry unit)
Heavy: 2x Longfangs w/2 Heavy Bolters + 3 Missile launchers & 1x Longfangs w/Missile launchers. (place both Priests in one of the first two squads)
There. A nice solid all-rounder that isn't overly focused on just one type of opponent. And if you still really fear armoured opponents, then swap those plasmas for meltas. If you don't want to sink pts into Storm Shield Wolf Guard, then ally in an Inquisitor and a big unit of Crusaders + Deathcults w/power mauls. Or try out Fenrisian Wolves as cheap assaulters, or look into allying in some Hammernators... (or even god-forbid, you bring in a big squad of Blood Claws led by a Wolf Priest who only gives them 'Prefered Enemy - whatever!')
Bring back your transports for a couple of your squads. Daemons suck at ranged anti-armour, so laugh as they waste their turn frying cheap transports, only to then sit there in rapid fire and counter-assault range!
Space Wolves are well equiped to deal with Daemons. Grey Knights don't even have to try!
Hell, with Grey Knights, you can for example counter those 'OP Screamers' with basic sword-wielding Termies who get a 4++, or better yet, multi-wound Pallies w/swords... or bring out ANYthing with Halberds! Or go for the extreme overkill of funny 'nades in a squad of power maul Deathcults... The list goes on.
Seriously, 40k Daemons are nowhere near the OP levels of 5th ed GK's, or 6th ed Flyer spam...
...or god forbid, 7th ed Fantasy Daemons!!! (you've never seen what "OMG broken!1!!1!!!11!" REALLY is until you've suffered 7th ed Fantasy Daemons...)
Thats a nice list. How does it deal with flyers? What happens when you face off against a squad of TH/SS terminators? How does it deal with LRBTs?
An seriously you lost me with the Daemons being nowhere near as OP as Grey Knights were.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How does the list you just wrote up deal with this, and please keep in mind I don't know daemons that well I am using Army Builder and using the point costs for screamers and flamers from WD
Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Breath of Chaos, an Chaos Icon
a) Don't take loads of meltas, plasmas, lascannons and other big guns! Daemons don't care and we love it when you still play like it's 5th edition and transporthammer!
Instead, sprinkle in some flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons & autocannons alongside your basic 'oodles of bolter Troops and suddenly we start liking things alot less... Daemons should be treated exactly like Orks or Tyranids or hoard IG. If you're trying to treat them like another MEQ army, well, good for you sunshine, you missed to boat on that one!
b) Don't spread your forces out when you deploy!!!
Daemons love it when MEQ's especially spread out and try to cover multiple areas. Why? Because we're really good at killing MEQ's & TEQ's, weather by shooting with Flamers, or chopping them with Screamers, 'Curshers, Fiends, Seekers, etc...
Castle-up. Play a refused flank deployment. STICK TOGETHER!!! Massed infantry all staying within support range of multiple units is an utter nightmare for Daemons because we're made of glass with only a few units actually bosting an armour save. Yes, the Daemons player will cause some damage and you will lose units. But we can't cause enough damage to a well defended infantry line because unlike every other army, we can only ever start with 50% of our forces!!!
c) Chariot Heralds of all alligneces are no longer IC's. So it's not like they're a hard target to pop. And here's a bigger hint; kill the Icon/s first! Make the Daemon player either take big risks to land the rest of their force, or else keep their drops at arms length.
d) Screamers are less terrifying when you're charging them. At the end of the day, when assault is inevitable, CHARGE! Deny the Screamers their bonus attacks, while you gain that bonus yourself. 10 Grey Hunters is easily capable of beating 5 Screamers on the charge. Yes you'll lose a few, but outside of wonky dice, you should win that fight! (30 attacks hitting on 3's vs 15 attack hitting on 4's?! on average you cause 10 wounds before saves to his meager 4-5 and likely wipe the squad...)
If you're really paranoid about Screamers, get some Storm Shields! Suddenly those Screamers now suck again as they're tarpitted by a better squad who hard-counters their biggest advantage.
As for Warp Quake and needing an 'uncompetitive' army to do so? Just shows you've never actually used WQ ever... Consider that only 1 ten-man squad, fully spaced out its max 2" coherency covers an automatic mishap area roughly 22"x30"! That's the auto-mishap area my friend.
30 Warp Quake models is all you need to give a Daemon player a viable deployment zone of just roughly 6"x8"... So, unless you're telling me that 20 Strikes + 10 Interceptors make for a horrible auto-lose army, you're just blowing smoke. (hint: that's actually a really freaking solid base to an army! Espeically when you can cheaply give the Strikes S5 basic guns, a pair of Psycannons and a cheap transport for another S6 multi-shot gun!)
All this thread is, is simply whining about bringing a poorly equiped 'Scissors' army against a spam list that turned out to be 'Rock'.
Try deploying with a bit of common sense and bringing something beyond melta/plasma/lascannons/krak rockets/vindicator and things should turn out a bit differently.
Bring 10 Strikes and lay them at the front of your army and if you win first turn and cast Warp Quake, well, no point even playing the game at that point - you just won by default of forcing the Daemons to land at least 20" away from you!
This is some of the best advice I have seen thus far and would advise that anyone that is having issues playing versus Daemons take heed.
Must be nice to have never lost a game. I bet you are undefeated aren't you, such a superior tactician and list builder. Man I wish i could be you. Just like the guy who went undefeated in 5th against the broken Grey Knights. with his daemons. Next time I will deploy my army against a foe not yet on the board just a little better. Better yet could I get your phone number so I could call you an make sure I do it correctly?
The fact that you regard going first against an army that *has* to deep-strike as a disadvantage is...telling.
Did you know that you can influence your opponant's placements determined by your own firepower? Depending on your army make-up, you can make sections of the board unplayable.
Hell just take Grey Knight allies for a cheap Strike Squad. I don't like *having* to use allies either, but I'm not going to call cheese on my opponents for using flyers (though admitidly they can be en masse).
This is some of the best advice I have seen thus far and would advise that anyone that is having issues playing versus Daemons take heed.
I'll second this as a Tzeentch Demon player who runs Fateweaver lists, with flamers and multiple Lords of change.
Especially about the special weapons. You don't need any plasmas, meltas or lascannons. At all. But a 50 point PCS squad with flamers can and will cause a deep striking unit a world of pain.
Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.
Savageconvoy wrote: Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.
It's a balance. It is possible to take both - it's not a binary decision.
Savageconvoy wrote: Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.
OP wanted advice on beating a specific army, he didn't want TAC advice.
I'd agree that in a TAC environment demons would be very powerful, possibly as powerful as GK in 5th (which were more or less impossible to counter).
Savageconvoy wrote: Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.
They don't want to hear that, they want you to build a list that can beat daemons to show that daemons are not OP. Trouble is, and they won't admit this, by the time you switch enough of your own guns over to heavy infantry you can't deal with terminators, MCs or flyers.. I guess everyone should be playing Guard, Orcs, or Nids.
Ya want a list that can beat Daemons here goes.
Coteaz
Xenos Inquisitor Psyker
10x Strike Squad w/ 2x Psycannon an Psybolt ammo
10x Strike Squad w/ 2x Psycannon an Psybolt ammo
12x Acolytes w/ 3x flamers an Storm Bolter
12x Acolytes w/ 3x Flamers an Bolter
10x Acolytes w/ 3x Flamers and Storm Bolters
10x Interceptors w/ 2x Psycannon an Psybolt Ammo
5x Interceptors w/ Psycannon.
5x Purgation squad w/4x Psilencers.
There if I go first I win. If I go second I can still combat squad an shunt the Interceptors around the board to lock off certain areas and pop off Warp Quake where the Strike Squads are maybe even combat squad them too. Should have enough bolters to kill daemons now.
Savageconvoy wrote: Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.
OP wanted advice on beating a specific army, he didn't want TAC advice.
I'd agree that in a TAC environment demons would be very powerful, possibly as powerful as GK in 5th (which were more or less impossible to counter).
Oh come now, someone earlier said that they were unbeaten against Grey Knights with Daemons in 5th. Impossible to counter? Not for that guy.
An yes at first I wanted some advice but I just don't see it. I say Daemons beat Wolves most of the time, but I would really like to see how you would build an all comers list that could deal with daemons. An all comers list for Daemons includes as many flamers and screamers as you can fit in, so with daemons its really a no brainer.
Savageconvoy wrote: Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.
They don't want to hear that, they want you to build a list that can beat daemons to show that daemons are not OP. Trouble is, and they won't admit this, by the time you switch enough of your own guns over to heavy infantry you can't deal with terminators, MCs or flyers.. I guess everyone should be playing Guard, Orcs, or Nids.
Have you been paying attention at all? I've made TAC suggestions. Your assertion is absolutely untrue.
Carnage43 wrote: 27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)
Here's an interesting comparison for you.
Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.
Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.
Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;
Always have to DSHuge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt. Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.
I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.
Yes he ignored those downsides, he also ignored the fact they are 2 wounds a piece. Flamers get double the wounds, a invul save, eternal warrior, a flamer attack which ignores armour and cover saves, a assault 3 attack for 5 pts more. ASM get a 12" range 1 shot BP attack. I know what I would rather have
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote: Treat Flamers & Screamers like you would a hoard of Orks or Genestealers.
we're not saying trade in every last bit of anti-tank for pure anti-infantry, what we're saying is don't go full-on anti-mech/TEQ and expect it do against Daemons! Just like you wouldn't max-out on meltas/plasmas or vindicators to tackle Orks or Tyranids!
Castle-up you deployment. If you don't think you can safely fit 40+ 'Hunters, a Skyshield platform, Thunderwolves et all in there, then drop something huge like the Skyshield pad and get an Aegis line instead!
And when you castle-up, there's very little room for those Daemons to safely land and alpha-strike you when they're using larger squads. As pointed out, there's also far less room for those annoying Screamers to do their fly-by attacks as there won't be sufficient room to place them in a decent formation afterwards. (if at all!)
You want a good SW list to counter Flamers/Screamer spam? Try something like;
HQ: 2x Rune Priests w/Living Lightning
Elites: Wolf Guard w/Storm shields. Even 5 of 'em will do.
Troops: 2x Grey Hunters w/Plasma or Melta + 1-2x Grey Hunters w/Flamers
Fast: 2x Land Speeders w/asscans and Multi-melta (if you fear big gribblies or other armoured opponents) or Heavy Bolters (if you want a small, specialised anti-infantry unit)
Heavy: 2x Longfangs w/2 Heavy Bolters + 3 Missile launchers & 1x Longfangs w/Missile launchers. (place both Priests in one of the first two squads)
There. A nice solid all-rounder that isn't overly focused on just one type of opponent. And if you still really fear armoured opponents, then swap those plasmas for meltas. If you don't want to sink pts into Storm Shield Wolf Guard, then ally in an Inquisitor and a big unit of Crusaders + Deathcults w/power mauls. Or try out Fenrisian Wolves as cheap assaulters, or look into allying in some Hammernators... (or even god-forbid, you bring in a big squad of Blood Claws led by a Wolf Priest who only gives them 'Prefered Enemy - whatever!')
Bring back your transports for a couple of your squads. Daemons suck at ranged anti-armour, so laugh as they waste their turn frying cheap transports, only to then sit there in rapid fire and counter-assault range!
Space Wolves are well equiped to deal with Daemons. Grey Knights don't even have to try!
Hell, with Grey Knights, you can for example counter those 'OP Screamers' with basic sword-wielding Termies who get a 4++, or better yet, multi-wound Pallies w/swords... or bring out ANYthing with Halberds! Or go for the extreme overkill of funny 'nades in a squad of power maul Deathcults... The list goes on.
Seriously, 40k Daemons are nowhere near the OP levels of 5th ed GK's, or 6th ed Flyer spam...
...or god forbid, 7th ed Fantasy Daemons!!! (you've never seen what "OMG broken!1!!1!!!11!" REALLY is until you've suffered 7th ed Fantasy Daemons...)
Why take a aegis though? other then to give the flamers a nice bunched up set of targets? skyshield gives something aegis doesnt, 4++ for just 25 pts, The massive downside is shyshield really does restrict your LOS and firing possibiltes.
Savageconvoy wrote: Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.
Reading comprehension fail...
No one has suggested ditching every single melta/plasma/lascannon. Rather, we've been suggesting you don't max-out on purely anti-tank/TEQ weapons.
In a TAC Space Wolves list, there's nothing wrong with for example, going for 3 Longfang squads that are set-up with say only 1 pure-missile launcher squad, plus a pair of Heavy Bolter + Missile launcher equiped squads. If you want more flexibility, add in a Rune Priest or two with Living Lightning for an effect D6 shot autocannon.
Depending on your opposition you can even alter your casulty removal. For example, against Daemons with few MC's, let the missiles eat the first bullets, leaving your multi-shot guns to keep pumping out shots. Against a mech list, let the heavy b's fall first and preserve those more valuable missile shots.
By that same token, if you don't want to run the risk of your Grey Hunters being unable to deal with a particular type of target, then vary their weapon upgrades. 1x flamer, 1x meltagun & 1x Powerfist makes for a decently costed all-rounder unit.
Yes, it doesn't 100% specialise against 1 particular type of target, but it's not left high and dry either, or over-equiped to deal with a specific threat. (ie: trying to us meltaguns vs horde Orks or Daemons who don't give a flying rat's fart about S8/ap1 'uberness)
Bring a few transports and/or Land Speeders to supliment those heavy weapons you feel you're lacking in. If you went more anti-infantry on your Grey Hunters, then pack multi-meltas and typhoon launchers/asscans. If you've got the enemy armour covered, take things like heavy b's, asscans or heavy flamers.
Use allies to cover any percieved weaknesses as well. While Strikes and/or Interceptors are jerk moves to pull on a Daemon player, (espeically more than a single squad), if you really don't want to think about anything, spam Warp Quake and laugh. Bring in a Dreadknight and use him to chase down that Herald. Heck, a gatling psylencer is good against infantry in general, while an incinerator is ace for digging units out from behind the copious amounts of Aegis Defense Lines that have been cropping up!
Screamers fall flat against a large unit of Deathcults who are faster and can easily be given S6 attacks w/power mauls. Crusaders come with storm shields for cheap for soaking up not just Screamer attacks, but anything else like Hammernators, Incubi, Rending hits, power axes/fists, etc...
The main point though; you can NEVER! build a 100% TAC list that will easily answer any potential opponent!!! That's why spam-lists are so effective - because they go all-in on one aspect of the game to the point that your opponent can't kill it all! It's simply a hard-counter type of play that in itself is susceptible only to it's own hard-counter.
Flamer/Screamer spam for example is hugely difficult for TAC's Marine lists because it's a pure hard-counter to lower model, high armour save armies. It falls flat however if it runs into an IG gunline which outshoots it, or an Orky horde which out combats it.
Mech spam was king in 5th because most armies couldn't produce high enough volumes of S8+ to ensure lots of penetrating hits. Again though, it got face-punched in turn by the likes of DoA's lists or Drop Pod Marines who had reduced/safer scatter and plentifull access to Troops with meltaguns.
GK's for example killed the above through the introduction of Warp Quake, but could also be built around MSU spam, or vehicle spam, or wound-allocation TEQ spam...
TAC's lists don't easily answer spam, hence why spam is prefered. What a true TAC's list has to do in such a situation is play strictly to the mission and realise you're going to lose a good chunk of your army!
That Daemon list for example can't hold objectives worth crap. Plaguebearers are slow as feth and typically come in small squads that aren't nearly as resilient as they were in 5th when you could make them 3++/4+ FnP. If you're playing an objective game, kill their Troops, feed those killer units some sacrifical lambs and try to simply hold out on top of those objectives you can manage.
Yes he ignored those downsides, he also ignored the fact they are 2 wounds a piece. Flamers get double the wounds, a invul save, eternal warrior, a flamer attack which ignores armour and cover saves, a assault 3 attack for 5 pts more. ASM get a 12" range 1 shot BP attack. I know what I would rather have
Actually my math showed that W2 5++ is the same as a 3+ save, and adding EW to that is the same as making the 3+ save on the marines invulnerable.
Most of the....angst...about this whole setup is that it's not balanced. What it takes to cut down 9 flamers is not even remotely close to the damage those flamers do in return. The number crunching earlier showed that it takes 3 full Long Fang squads, or 3 full Grey Hunter squads to put down a flamer squad, but an untouched, or even half strength squad of flamers will bury a LF or GH squad a turn. It's the whole 100ish points of flamers does similar damage to 500+ points of space wolves.
As for constructive criticism. Standard wolf list, rhino borne GH, some with meltas, some with plasma, at least 1 squad with double or triple (combi) flamers. Missile fangs, rune priest, maybe a TW Lord with storm shield and either a powerfist or more likely a wolf claw, maybe in a fenris wolf squad, couple of Lone Wolves (termie armor, SS, powerfist). Build a wall around your deployment zone with the rhinos and castle up, leaving firing lanes for your LFs, in case the rhinos end up wrecked or immobilized. Try to shift your army away from some of the flamers and focus squads down. Take every advantage possible of pre-measuring to make sure you are out of the flamer death range. Use the TWL, fenris wolves and Lone Wolves to charge depleted squads, their storm shields should keep them alive against 2-3 flamers, and the wolves are cheap enough and have enough wounds to eat some damage as well.
I imagine objective missions are going to be....difficult, as you are going to be spending the first 3-4 turns just trying not to get tabled, but hopefully you will have enough stuff left to make a push on the plaguebrearers camping the objectives.
valace2 wrote: [Orcs maybe but they have to get within 18" maybe thats doable if Screamers haven't already strafed the orcs and then blocked them from the flamers, if the flamers get a good drop and that is possible you don't have 30 left.
... Shoot 2 units of guardians into them, ok fine now you have dumped 320 points worth of shooting into a 200 point squad. Not a good trade off point wise especially when there are 1-2 other flamer units running around
Now we will look at Fire Warriors, they get within 15 to rapid fire and dump 24 shots into the Flamers, 12 hit and around 7-8 wound deamons make 2-3 saves so they have lost 3 flamers at best the remaining 6 come in and cook the fire warriors.
Now a 300 point termagaunt brood with devourers are going to do some damage but why in the world would you stick 300 points into a gaunt brood. with 3 shots a piece at WS3 you are going to get around 60 shots and then wound 30 of those yea the daemons are in trouble but they just got smacked by a 300point gaunt brood. That brood does sound pretty damn vicious. If there was a way to get divination for them jesus that would be a lot of pain.
And if the flamers get a bad drop they are either in back in reserve, somewhere really inconvenient or dead before a shot is even fired.
Except all those troops are weak by themselves but posess army buffs that make them far beyond their parts, guide and doom on guardians, markerlights for your fire warriors (try doing the maths with BS5 Fire Warriors), endurance, preferred enemy, toxin, adrenal for your gaunts (Devourers are way overcosted for such a fragile platform IMO)
Your assumptions are always that they cannot be charged because it will cost you 1 model per flamer. For marines this is a huge issue, but I will happily drop 30 gaunts on them for 150pts, lose 9 on the charge and tie them up grinding them away over the next few turns.
You also assume that because you need 400pts to wipe out 250pts of flamers that you are on to a losing battle. In that instance the daemon player is down 250pts and you are down 0, and of course to get 3 flamers and 3 screamers units he must have 5 units in reserve giving you a point advantage in the early game as he comes in piecemeal. If I have to fire all 1500pts of my army to wipe out 600pts of aggressivly placed flamers turn 1 it's not a loss because his screamers beat up some of my guys turn 2, I removed half the teeth of his army meaning his screamers are now all that stands between me and those piddly 5 man scoring units he needs to win him the game and this is turn 2...
Daemons are finally competetive, they have a strong build that rewards highly aggressive deployment (which in itself is dangerous as you may well kill your own troops) and they are particularly strong against the kind of power armoured builds that have been dominating the meta of late. I feel both units are accurately costed for glass cannons and provide a wonderful counter to marines and heavily armoured foes. They risk so much on the scatter die and don't have the durability to take a solid punch back.
It's true that I feel no sympathy for a SW player crying cheese but if I thought they were OP I'd still agree with you but I just don't. It's a bad match for marines, the rest of us are doing just fine against Daemons.
Dunklezahn wrote: It's a bad match for marines, the rest of us are doing just fine against Daemons.
For what it's worth, in my experience Daemons have always been a bad match up for Marine-based armies. Most of my losses using Daemons have been at the hands of IG (gunline) and Dark Eldar (also with lots of shooting). Armies like Blood Angels are almost an auto-win for Daemons, and have been since 5th Edition, well before the Flamers were buffed.
Also, while I'm enjoying my Daemons stomping on my opponents, I will admit that Flamers were already good before the WD update, they are at least borderline broken (good) now. I almost feel guilty using them and am considering removing them from lists that I use against friends.
Dunklezahn wrote: It's a bad match for marines, the rest of us are doing just fine against Daemons.
For what it's worth, in my experience Daemons have always been a bad match up for Marine-based armies. Most of my losses using Daemons have been at the hands of IG (gunline) and Dark Eldar (also with lots of shooting). Armies like Blood Angels are almost an auto-win for Daemons, and have been since 5th Edition, well before the Flamers were buffed.
Also, while I'm enjoying my Daemons stomping on my opponents, I will admit that Flamers were already good before the WD update, they are at least borderline broken (good) now. I almost feel guilty using them and am considering removing them from lists that I use against friends.
Flamers & Screamers are simply undercosted right now, mainly because they have Eternal Warrior. Lose that rule, and suddenly they go back to being glass cannons that will still absolutely wreck anything they touch, but be very vulnerable to being hit back hard in return.
Before the update, Flamers were solid value for alpha-striking key units with 3 templates of death. Easy to land, big rewards, and only 105pts worth of risk. Screamers however were utter pants! 17pts flying melta bombs. Sure for 53pts you may as well have taken a squad or two since nothing else in our Fast section was really worth it and vehicles were everywhere! But overall, when it would cost you $45(can) for 3, why waste the money on such an overall crap unit?!
I'm firmly in the camp that believes we'll be losing army-wide Eternal Warrior come February. If that happens, then the WD Flamers & Screamers will be worth their cost. They'll hit just as hard as they do now, but S8+ becomes a solid and viable counter meaning that simply spaming 27+27 of the suckers is no longer an 'easy-button' brainless-kill-all solution.
For now, the keys to fighting this nightmare are still the same tactics that worked like a charm in 5th;
a) castle-up your deployment so the Daemons alpha-strike potential is hugely risky.
b) hide in transports because Daemons suck at killing vehicles at range.
c) focus fire on the Icons to prevent accurate Deep Striking and look to cripple units.
4-5 Screamers getting charged by a competent assault unit will simply fold. Flamers either need to be multi-charged, or else hit them with larger 20+ strong units.
Looking for a competitive, TAC Space Wolves list that can still beat Daemons? Uh..did you check the results from NOVA?
HQ1: Njal
HQ(Guard): Primaris Psyker
Troops(Guard):
Platoon Command Squad
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad, Power Weapon (Axe)
Infantry Squad
H.Support1: Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers
H.Support2: Long Fangs x5, 4x Missile Launchers
Enough bodies to cover the table, screen what you really need to protect, and force Daemons to deploy where you want them. Loads of anti-infantry shooting in the hands of numerous, durable scoring units. Enough units to sacrifice one or two as Flamerbait (or just assault with the Guard Blob which shouldn't mind Wall of Death much at all). Everything's pretty hard to roll over in assault as well. As a Daemons player, Tony's list would be one of the scariest things I could imagine seeing across the table. Right up there with Strike/Interceptor spam and Green Tide. So of course TAC Space Wolves can still beat Daemons. They have, the list above is your proof.
I would agree with the premise that, since 6th Edition rolled around, building a balanced list has become a lot more challenging. Everyone needs to build to beat elites, hordes, Flyerspam and everything in between. But at the same time, Allies make every army capable of a lot more flexibility. The options are there if you're willing to look. In the case of Space Wolves, you've got plenty. Hunters/Fangs are the envy of every other MEQ army for a reason: they are extremely point-efficient, powerful, and versatile. Grey Hunters alone are a very strong "core" for any army, probably the best troop in the game. Long Fangs remain the best fire support your points can buy. Then you can ally in IG, GK, even Eldar for flavor. Or if Allies aren't your thing, take TWC or max out on Hunters/Fangs like in 5th (but seriously, why hamstring yourself?)
Space Wolves don't get Null Zone. List tailoring via an allied Librarian would defeat the whole TAC mindset here.
So no, no one has suggested that.
Because Null Zone is useless against other armies, amirite?
Even if it was useless against other armies, you can always swap the powers out for something from the rulebook. I've given people this exact advice in person after beating them. Null Zone ruins my day.
Null zone is situational and yes, it's very good against daemons. The reason that Space Wolves wouldn't use an allied librarian is that you have to take a troops option and, bikes aside, Space Marine troops bring nothing to the table for Space Wolves.
The more I think about it, the more I think that perhaps 6th edition just isn't meant to be marine-friendly.
Flyerspam lists curbstomp marines, but fall flat against horde armies.
Mech lists (which marines are famous for) are weaker than before.
And now we have flamers of tzeentch which, like flyers, destroy marines but suffer against large model counts.
I know, I know, the idea is heretical (and the situation will likely change once more marine codexes are updated), but it's getting harder and harder for me to avoid this conclusion.
reaper with no name wrote: The more I think about it, the more I think that perhaps 6th edition just isn't meant to be marine-friendly.
Flyerspam lists curbstomp marines, but fall flat against horde armies.
Mech lists (which marines are famous for) are weaker than before.
And now we have flamers of tzeentch which, like flyers, destroy marines but suffer against large model counts.
I know, I know, the idea is heretical (and the situation will likely change once more marine codexes are updated), but it's getting harder and harder for me to avoid this conclusion.
It's almost like certain lists have pros and cons against certain types of armies.
reaper with no name wrote: The more I think about it, the more I think that perhaps 6th edition just isn't meant to be marine-friendly.
Flyerspam lists curbstomp marines, but fall flat against horde armies.
Mech lists (which marines are famous for) are weaker than before.
And now we have flamers of tzeentch which, like flyers, destroy marines but suffer against large model counts.
I know, I know, the idea is heretical (and the situation will likely change once more marine codexes are updated), but it's getting harder and harder for me to avoid this conclusion.
Or rather, perhaps 6th edition requires players to use that lump between their ears a bit more than 5th ed did?!
For example;
Flyer spam can be built to curbstomp hordes. FCM's especially are brutal to infantry. People need to stop thinking this game still revolves around 'spam X meltaguns = profit'.
Mech lists are no longer point-and-click button armies anymore due to HP's. Transports are still vital tools, but people need to pull their heads outa their and wake up to the fact you can't sit inside 6-8+ transports and win games on the last turn anymore.
Flamers & Screamers are designed to eat high armour save units, but can't defend nearly as well against bunkered opposition. Those transports people think are so useless now? Hide in them when the hell gribblies come and suddenly all they can do is kill a 50 odd point transport and then get blasted point blank...
Wall of Death doesn't mean Flamers are impossible to assault, just that you have to throw multiple squads at the same unit.
Units with Invulns of their own, (storm shields - hint-hint!), or else lack a decent armour save negate the main abilities of Screamers.
Flamers & Screamers are designed to eat high armour save units, but can't defend nearly as well against bunkered opposition. Those transports people think are so useless now? Hide in them when the hell gribblies come and suddenly all they can do is kill a 50 odd point transport and then get blasted point blank...
Wall of Death doesn't mean Flamers are impossible to assault, just that you have to throw multiple squads at the same unit.
Units with Invulns of their own, (storm shields - hint-hint!), or else lack a decent armour save negate the main abilities of Screamers.
And then the surviving flamers (you won't kill them all in one shooting phase) destroy your marines.
The real question we should be asking is, are flamers and screamers being able to trash marines necessarily a bad thing? The obvious answer would be no, but on the other hand, xenos have been forced to endure this kind of situation many times. Perhaps it's time for a little payback?
Personally, I think it's perfectly acceptable for flamers and screamers to be highly effective against marines relative to their point costs. However, I do think they are just a little bit too much as they are currently. But there are much bigger problems in the game right now, so they need to get in line.
Gunnvulcan wrote: I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?
That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".
People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.
So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday
Thats not really being cheesy, cheesy is more about min-maxing.
Think of it as an RTS game. If someone was playing as America they may have 1 Abram with several squads of infantry armed with M-16s supporting it. Thats fluffy because thats something that would normally occur.
Cheesy would massing nothing but LAV with Anti Tank modifications and directing firing the ground if enemy infantry show up. The key for that to be cheesy is that if massing LAVs is considered OP or something because of their ungodly speed, decent armor, and massive punch they have. In reality no one would ever assault a town with a force like that but in a game, eh feth it, whats stopping you.
In the game Shattered Union, massing LAVs in a low point game could be fething devesating if it wasnt for the fact they cant attack infantry but with that speed, it doesnt matter because the infantry will never be able to hit them.
The real question we should be asking is, are flamers and screamers being able to trash marines necessarily a bad thing? The obvious answer would be no, but on the other hand, xenos have been forced to endure this kind of situation many times. Perhaps it's time for a little payback?
dont forget those vespids. broken I tell you. BROKEN
(you've never seen what "OMG broken!1!!1!!!11!" REALLY is until you've suffered 7th ed Fantasy Daemons...)
flat however if it runs into an 