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 Carnage43 wrote:
While Valace is coming across rather...hostile. He does kind of have a point. The new demon units, and pretty much ONLY the new demon units are a little over the top in terms of damage output.

They are pretty much the perfect all comers unit, and there is almost nothing they cannot beat.

Horde? flamer template death.
MCs? They wound on a 4+, and ignore your save.
Good save/elite troops? Ignoring that save again, so those are points wasted.
Vehicles? A full squad will on average bury a Land Raider in 1 volley, 6 will toast any 3 HP vehicle.
Fast units trying to outrange/kite them? Well, they deepstrike, and move as jump infantry.
Melee troops? Wall of death will average 1 wound of damage output when they get charged per flamer (assuming no invul save). After that, they are still roughly comparable to SM assault marines in melee (minus the weapon skill of course).
Getting shot at? Well, they don't really need cover, since they have multiple wounds, ignore instant death, an invulnerable save built in, and often get the benefit of Fateweaver's aura on top of that.

The annoying thing is that there is no hard counter to them. Telling people to shoot the choppy bits and assault the shooty bits doesn't work here. They are purifiers all over again.

So that leaves focus fire and "tricks", aka, just outplaying the demon player. Sounds all well and good, until you get a demon player that's actually decent and knows how to deal with the tricks. Flamers are also fairly unique in that it will only take 2-3 of them to completely ruin just about any squad in your army from full strength to dead. Most units can be safely ignored once they are reduced well below half strength, but even 2 flamers have a solid chance of killing 5+ marines if they are left alone. I heard someone say that against the new Tzeench toys that any points spend on vehicles or armor saves are basically completely wasted, and I think that about sums up my opinion on them as well. Don't forget they can get comm's arrays now too, so will get the vast majority of their army by the second turn.

Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.

If I come across as a bit hostile I apologize, I just don't like people defending these updated daemons with the "oh well in 5th Grey Knights were so broken and OP they should be reduced to a mid tier army now". I have wanted to play Grey Knights since I first saw them back when they were just 5 terminator librarians an if you have ever seen the list of psychic powers from Rogue Trader you would know they were not something you wanted in front of you. I don't like Matt Ward any more than the rest of you, how GW can give that man free reign with the fluff is a disgrace. I love the mythos behind the C'tan and he basically erased it from 40k history. His story of Draigo is equally as pathetic. That doesn't change the fact that I like deamon hunting Space Marines. Same thing with Space Wolves, I have always loved Space Wolves and it has been my primary army since they first were brought out in WD.

As to me saying I don't run spam lists, well I don't my local scene doesn't either thats not to say we whip out the Vespids, Roughriders, an Ogryns either. We just don't spam. This last tournament we had out of towners come in an they ran daemon and necron spam and if thats the way it has to be, well so be it. You play in a tournament to win, and I won't fault you for bringing a list that can. What I find fault with is GW for making the changes in the first place.

You are exactly right with everything you said. An when there are 27 flamers coming at you, there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do but shoot, shoot, and more shoot. That is why I am equally dissapointed with the Screamers. They can skim and hit you while they are flying at you, and unless you can pump around 20-60 shots into just one unit then you are not going to be able to take them out. An then when you move to assault them you notice base 3 attacks, Str5, I4, and AP2 there isn't really a whole hell of a lot short of a 10 man Purifier unit with Halberds an maybe an HQ attached that can take out a full 9 man unit of screamers. As for their low WS they are still hitting you on a 4+ hell marine on marine is a 4+ but at least you get armour saves. If the Screamers assault you they are coming with 36 attacks. An with bumps from other sources nothing can survive that. Hell even that Herald is a b*tch 5 wounds, eternal warrior, T4, with a 4+ invuln just keep it out of assault range and the daemon player doesn't even have to worry about scattering.

If I sound like a broken record it is because I have seen what spam Flamers and Screamers can do, and I tell you now they are going to be winning alot of tournaments from here on out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Testify wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

Yep. 5th edition tzeentch armies were an auto-lose against any army with more than 2 vehicles. Hence I don't have much sympathy for people whinging about flamers, especially since they seem to be GK/SW.

Well you should be pretty happy now that most SW/GK transports are sitting on shelves now collecting dust.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.

 Carnage43 wrote:


Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.

I will call you out on that. A Ben Franklin says Flamers will largely stay the same. BOC won't go to AP4 or 5, I can almost guarantee that.

The thing that may happen, and I say MAY, is that daemons may loose eternal warrior. So what? It will be a slight nerf, but it is not like it will make flamers & screamers unviable. They will just be slightly less survivable.
Daemons have always been good, and I would expect the new book to provide another build and more options for the daemon player if anything.

And to the poster above calling me a "daemon player", yeah, I am a daemon player. I am also a Grey Knight player (among other armies). I understand the matchup and the in's and out's of both armies very well.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.

That would be stupid. They may as well give tyranids vehicles too.

What just comes off as wonky to me, is if I spam a certain unit, I'm good against one thing, slightly good again another, and terrible against something else.

If I spam vendettas with vets, I'm awesome against armor, solid against a mix, terrible against horde. I could run valks, but then I'm decent/solid/solid. No matter what I spam not everything is going to be a cakewalk.

If a daemon player spams flamers and screaners, it's pretty effective against just about anything.

Mech, mixed, varied. True, some lists can be better off offensively against them, but defensively everything gets slapped around.

 Testify wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.

That would be stupid. They may as well give tyranids vehicles too.

Some type of strange bio tank for the nids might actually be pretty neat model wise and could actually have some potential if the rules for it are written correctly.

 Necroshea wrote:
What just comes off as wonky to me, is if I spam a certain unit, I'm good against one thing, slightly good again another, and terrible against something else.

If I spam vendettas with vets, I'm awesome against armor, solid against a mix, terrible against horde. I could run valks, but then I'm decent/solid/solid. No matter what I spam not everything is going to be a cakewalk.

If a daemon player spams flamers and screaners, it's pretty effective against just about anything.

Mech, mixed, varied. True, some lists can be better off offensively against them, but defensively everything gets slapped around.

Mass flyers would hurt daemons. You would need those flyers to pump out a lot of shots, a Storm Raven with hurricane bolters, heavy bolter and assualt cannon with psybolt ammo could put a hurting on daemons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Testify wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

I imagine they will do other things to fix that. You will probably be getting the 2 new chaos demon engines, the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend, and already have access to the Decimator, who know what else you will be getting? Maybe the new Khorne cannon things that Fantasy is rumored to be getting, rumors of plaguebearers riding giant flys...etc. You probably won't need flamers to have their "1 power kills all" ability.

That would be stupid. They may as well give tyranids vehicles too.

Daemons already have the Soul Grinder, why not give them a few more vehicles.

Why exactly are GK players whining about Daemons anyway? You can virtually cover the map in warp quakes.

 MrScience wrote:
Why exactly are GK players whining about Daemons anyway? You can virtually cover the map in warp quakes.

ummm, because if I cover the board in strike squads and interceptor squads I don't have a whole hell of a lot left to deal with other armies. Can GKs beat daemons if they know they are there. sure but it won't be a competitive build. What I will do is include some knights to give the rest of my army breathing room. I was buried under daemons yesterday by the end of turn 2 yesterday that won't happen again.

valace2 wrote:

 MrScience wrote:
Why exactly are GK players whining about Daemons anyway? You can virtually cover the map in warp quakes.

ummm, because if I cover the board in strike squads and interceptor squads I don't have a whole hell of a lot left to deal with other armies. Can GKs beat daemons if they know they are there. sure but it won't be a competitive build. What I will do is include some knights to give the rest of my army breathing room. I was buried under daemons yesterday by the end of turn 2 yesterday that won't happen again.

Knights running Warp Quake spam can beat daemons 50% of the time. If the GK player goes first, he will most likely win. If the Daemon player goes first, he will most likely win.
It was the same way in 5th.

It is best for Grey Knights to run 2-3 instances of Warp Quake, it leaves more room for a balanced build.

I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...

valace2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
While Valace is coming across rather...hostile. He does kind of have a point. The new demon units, and pretty much ONLY the new demon units are a little over the top in terms of damage output.

They are pretty much the perfect all comers unit, and there is almost nothing they cannot beat.

Spoiler:

Horde? flamer template death.
MCs? They wound on a 4+, and ignore your save.
Good save/elite troops? Ignoring that save again, so those are points wasted.
Vehicles? A full squad will on average bury a Land Raider in 1 volley, 6 will toast any 3 HP vehicle.
Fast units trying to outrange/kite them? Well, they deepstrike, and move as jump infantry.
Melee troops? Wall of death will average 1 wound of damage output when they get charged per flamer (assuming no invul save). After that, they are still roughly comparable to SM assault marines in melee (minus the weapon skill of course).
Getting shot at? Well, they don't really need cover, since they have multiple wounds, ignore instant death, an invulnerable save built in, and often get the benefit of Fateweaver's aura on top of that.

The annoying thing is that there is no hard counter to them. Telling people to shoot the choppy bits and assault the shooty bits doesn't work here. They are purifiers all over again.

So that leaves focus fire and "tricks", aka, just outplaying the demon player. Sounds all well and good, until you get a demon player that's actually decent and knows how to deal with the tricks. Flamers are also fairly unique in that it will only take 2-3 of them to completely ruin just about any squad in your army from full strength to dead. Most units can be safely ignored once they are reduced well below half strength, but even 2 flamers have a solid chance of killing 5+ marines if they are left alone. I heard someone say that against the new Tzeench toys that any points spend on vehicles or armor saves are basically completely wasted, and I think that about sums up my opinion on them as well. Don't forget they can get comm's arrays now too, so will get the vast majority of their army by the second turn.

Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.

If I come across as a bit hostile I apologize, I just don't like people defending these updated daemons with the "oh well in 5th Grey Knights were so broken and OP they should be reduced to a mid tier army now". I have wanted to play Grey Knights since I first saw them back when they were just 5 terminator librarians an if you have ever seen the list of psychic powers from Rogue Trader you would know they were not something you wanted in front of you. I don't like Matt Ward any more than the rest of you, how GW can give that man free reign with the fluff is a disgrace. I love the mythos behind the C'tan and he basically erased it from 40k history. His story of Draigo is equally as pathetic. That doesn't change the fact that I like deamon hunting Space Marines. Same thing with Space Wolves, I have always loved Space Wolves and it has been my primary army since they first were brought out in WD.

As to me saying I don't run spam lists, well I don't my local scene doesn't either thats not to say we whip out the Vespids, Roughriders, an Ogryns either. We just don't spam. This last tournament we had out of towners come in an they ran daemon and necron spam and if thats the way it has to be, well so be it. You play in a tournament to win, and I won't fault you for bringing a list that can. What I find fault with is GW for making the changes in the first place.

You are exactly right with everything you said. An when there are 27 flamers coming at you, there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do but shoot, shoot, and more shoot. That is why I am equally dissapointed with the Screamers. They can skim and hit you while they are flying at you, and unless you can pump around 20-60 shots into just one unit then you are not going to be able to take them out. An then when you move to assault them you notice base 3 attacks, Str5, I4, and AP2 there isn't really a whole hell of a lot short of a 10 man Purifier unit with Halberds an maybe an HQ attached that can take out a full 9 man unit of screamers. As for their low WS they are still hitting you on a 4+ hell marine on marine is a 4+ but at least you get armour saves. If the Screamers assault you they are coming with 36 attacks. An with bumps from other sources nothing can survive that. Hell even that Herald is a b*tch 5 wounds, eternal warrior, T4, with a 4+ invuln just keep it out of assault range and the daemon player doesn't even have to worry about scattering.

If I sound like a broken record it is because I have seen what spam Flamers and Screamers can do, and I tell you now they are going to be winning alot of tournaments from here on out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Testify wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

Yep. 5th edition tzeentch armies were an auto-lose against any army with more than 2 vehicles. Hence I don't have much sympathy for people whinging about flamers, especially since they seem to be GK/SW.

I cant really say much about flamer spam when my ork burna wagons could pump out 90 flamer hits (if you hit 6 under the template) dealing about 45 wounds. They would get approx 15 saves. So I would just bubble wrap the wagon then unwrap for death. lootas on a skyshield for the 4+ invul works too.

I will say that flamers are a bit much when burnas lose their overall punch once the wagon pops (and does the moment anyone realizes whats in the wagon) and become very squishy for their damage output. Ideally flamers (like burnas) would be more of a glass cannon with high damage output but low survivability, but that wouldn't sell models now would it?

Put everything in Land Raiders, Rhino's, Razorbacks and Droppods. Let flamers land, toast some sacrificial rhino's or razorbacks. Throw down drop pods with flamer armed marines behind the daemons. Crush 1st wave between remaining vehcials, foot marines and droppods. Then use droppods and broken rhinos to deny good landing spots for Flamers.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...

Have to say the main army Iv had trouble against with my daemons is guard, just for the sheer firepower they can put out.

Castle in a corner and odds are the daemon players gona take some serious hurt.

Its a boring strategy but it works.

 Xeriapt wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...

Have to say the main army Iv had trouble against with my daemons is guard, just for the sheer firepower they can put out.

Castle in a corner and odds are the daemon players gona take some serious hurt.

Its a boring strategy but it works.

Yeah the only real success I've had against a mech guard corner army is when i deep striked as much as i could right next to his army (sure you might mishap terribly with one or two units before you land an icon) but guaranteeing they only have one turn of shooting at your greater daemons et al means that I'm not wiped early....have never actually lost to guard with them but I've had matches where all thats been left is part of a unit of plaguebearers

 Xeriapt wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
I've played Screamer list several times and Beat them fine with my Imperial Guard , Granted it was a very close and Bloody Affiar every time but it can be done , Simply pick something and throw dice at it , at 2k point the mech list i bring throws 25 Strength 6 25 Strength 5 around 120 Strength 3 and a mix of about 55 Strength 7+ But when half his force is on the table , i am quite capable of whiping his ass around his side . The simple fact of the Matter with really any " Cheese " army is throw more dice then they have units . with the amount of fire my army throws out i have had several Turn 1 Tables with deep strikeing armies because yeah you may have a 2+ save ... But make it 45 times . What the advice i can give to you is always make sure you keep things flamer distance apart but always close enough so he can mishap if he scatters like crap . and Load up on is much Freakin Dakka as you can ...

Have to say the main army Iv had trouble against with my daemons is guard, just for the sheer firepower they can put out.

Castle in a corner and odds are the daemon players gona take some serious hurt.

Its a boring strategy but it works.

Aye it is very boring , I know but with the way I look at it is , if your going to do something considered " cheesy ( which I couldn't care about ) the. I will do something equally so , of I know I'm fighting daemons I take a punisher leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons ( or several ) but with any " elite " army such as grey knights and demons simply deny their advantsges , grey knights - bring. A. Frak ton of plasma and lascannons. With demons - box up and from a square with you tanks or Ageis defensive lines and shoot them apart on landing . And yes. I hate camping personally , I like getting in your face with 10 tanks and crushing folks under treads but that's just me

Wait, 200+pt units that have to risk mishap by deep striking into flamer range are what is considered overpowered now?

If he wants to get his shots guaranteed thats what he needs to do. otherwise his units have a 19-20" threat range with a jump/flame and are going to do nothing to you especially in the new days of rapid fire.

Couple that with T4 and a 5++ and they are hugely vulnerable to basic weapons fire.

30 Ork Shoota's kill 3.5 fron shooting, lose 6 guys on overwatch and beat the snot out of them in melee.
20 Presciensed/Guided Guardians blow 5 of them away in a single volley, 8 if they are doomed too.
Large squads of Gaunts, Fire Warriors or anyone with a bolter will hammer them and these are all Troop choices...

It's a unit thats actually designed to kill pricey, high toughness models like space marines, they actually gave space marine flavours a bad matchup, thats the thing that shocks me most. Maybe there's hope for GW yet.

To wipe out a squad of them you need to do 24 wounds to a T4 unit. Easy to do unless you're still trying to MSU in boxes, in which case, welcome to 6th.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Wait, 200+pt units that have to risk mishap by deep striking into flamer range are what is considered overpowered now?

If he wants to get his shots guaranteed thats what he needs to do. otherwise his units have a 19-20" threat range with a jump/flame and are going to do nothing to you especially in the new days of rapid fire.

Couple that with T4 and a 5++ and they are hugely vulnerable to basic weapons fire.

30 Ork Shoota's kill 3.5 fron shooting, lose 6 guys on overwatch and beat the snot out of them in melee.
20 Presciensed/Guided Guardians blow 5 of them away in a single volley, 8 if they are doomed too.
Large squads of Gaunts, Fire Warriors or anyone with a bolter will hammer them and these are all Troop choices...

It's a unit thats actually designed to kill pricey, high toughness models like space marines, they actually gave space marine flavours a bad matchup, thats the thing that shocks me most. Maybe there's hope for GW yet.

To wipe out a squad of them you need to do 24 wounds to a T4 unit. Easy to do unless you're still trying to MSU in boxes, in which case, welcome to 6th.

27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS
-2 WS (doesn't really matter, still hit WS4 on a 4+, and only marginally less staying power against return attacks)
Lose frag/krak grenades (boohoo? You are a shooting unit now, so shouldn't charge, and breath of chaos is better then krak grenades)
Switch bolt pistol for a "flamer pistol" that always wounds and glances on a 4+ and ignores saves.
Make your 3+ save into a 3+ invulnerable save (which is about equal to EW W2 5++)
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearless

Seems like a really good deal doesn't it? Hell, the 3++ save alone is worth 10+ points.

Flamers are appropriately priced these days at closer to 32-40 points, not 23. They doubled their staying power and reduced their cost by a third on a unit that was poor, but not laughably so. Of course they are over the top now.

It would be like giving what is now a mediocre unit, like lets say guardians, a 3+ save, and reducing them from 8 to 6 points....seems silly doesn't it? It would make guardians the new power unit in the game basically. That's exactly what they did with flamers.

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Wait, 200+pt units that have to risk mishap by deep striking into flamer range are what is considered overpowered now?

If he wants to get his shots guaranteed thats what he needs to do. otherwise his units have a 19-20" threat range with a jump/flame and are going to do nothing to you especially in the new days of rapid fire.

Couple that with T4 and a 5++ and they are hugely vulnerable to basic weapons fire.

30 Ork Shoota's kill 3.5 fron shooting, lose 6 guys on overwatch and beat the snot out of them in melee.
20 Presciensed/Guided Guardians blow 5 of them away in a single volley, 8 if they are doomed too.
Large squads of Gaunts, Fire Warriors or anyone with a bolter will hammer them and these are all Troop choices...

It's a unit thats actually designed to kill pricey, high toughness models like space marines, they actually gave space marine flavours a bad matchup, thats the thing that shocks me most. Maybe there's hope for GW yet.

To wipe out a squad of them you need to do 24 wounds to a T4 unit. Easy to do unless you're still trying to MSU in boxes, in which case, welcome to 6th.

Orcs maybe but they have to get within 18" maybe thats doable if Screamers haven't already strafed the orcs and then blocked them from the flamers, if the flamers get a good drop and that is possible you don't have 30 left.

20 guardians shooting 40 shots unbuffed hit 20 times and then wound maybe 7 times after that. Daemons make 2 saves they have lost 2 total. Even if they have rerolls they are still only hitting 30 times wounding 10 of those and the daemons prolly save 3 of them so he loses 3 with rerolls. Dice rolls can go either way but odds say they should kill only about 3. Even if the daemons are doomed they only lose 5. An thats if they are within 12 inches how in the hell did a daemon player let his flamers get that close without having killed off some of those guardians? Maybe a really bad scatter I guess. So those 3 remaining flamers come in and cook the entire unit of guardians. The problem here isn't that you can't hurt them. Nothing in this game is invincible but after you blast away with those guardians the remaining Flamers even if there are only 2-3 are going to go in an cook that entire unit. I saw it happen I killed 8 flamers and couldn't off the last one he came in and toasted 5 Grey Hunters, and screamers mopped up the rest. Shoot 2 units of guardians into them, ok fine now you have dumped 320 points worth of shooting into a 200 point squad. Not a good trade off point wise especially when there are 1-2 other flamer units running around.

Now we will look at Fire Warriors, they get within 15 to rapid fire and dump 24 shots into the Flamers, 12 hit and around 7-8 wound deamons make 2-3 saves so they have lost 3 flamers at best the remaining 6 come in and cook the fire warriors.

Now a 300 point termagaunt brood with devourers are going to do some damage but why in the world would you stick 300 points into a gaunt brood. with 3 shots a piece at WS3 you are going to get around 60 shots and then wound 30 of those yea the daemons are in trouble but they just got smacked by a 300point gaunt brood. That brood does sound pretty damn vicious. If there was a way to get divination for them jesus that would be a lot of pain.

 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.

Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.

valace2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.

Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.

The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.

rigeld2 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.

Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.

The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.

He can take a chaos icon. a herald with chariot, bolt, breath of chaos and Icon is 150points. That is along with 5 wounds, T4, eternal warrior, and 4+ invuln.

The stars were aligned against me in the game I played last weekend it really was. He rolled the warlord trait that allowed rerolls for reserves and made very good deepstrike rolls with his chariot and screamers, his flamers ended up a little back of where he wanted them. I was able to chew up the flamers and the screamers who were in my face but I couldn't spare any shots to kill that chariot almost all of his reserves ended (which included another unit of flamers and screamers) up in my face on turn 2.

 Xeriapt wrote:
Iv played primary Tzeentch Daemons for years so Iv always played with a fair few Screamers and Flamers.

Since the WD update though Iv just swapped to playing my DE.

Your a cool dude then. I take it you value friends, because it you didn't I'm sure you'd still be running your demons but have upgraded to max screamers and flamers.

Good to see there is hope in the community.

 DPBellathrom wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Tzeentch demons are the problem with demons, not the other 3 gods.

As it stands, Tzeentch demon spam, nercon flier spam are armies I will refuse to play against.

ugh, this isn't just you so dont take it as a personal attack but god damn I hate it when people say that. how about if someone was playing a mono god list and really lovedd tzeentch? you're going to refuse to play because you dont like them spamming units from their favourite god? not to mention it's just in bad taste to refuse a game based on the idea that it's spammy/you wont win, so what if you loose you might pick up a few tips on how to beat that army next time it comes around

I can kind of see where he's coming from. I wouldn't refuse to play any army, but if in a non-tournament game someone had a GK force that spammed Warp Quake, I'd probably concede if I didn't go first. If he had enough Warp Quake to cover the board I wouldn't waste my time playing him if he went first. So before deploying anything, we'd roll to see how went first, then roll to see if either of could seize the initiative.

Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?

Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.

valace2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.

Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.

The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.

He can take a chaos icon. a herald with chariot, bolt, breath of chaos and Icon is 150points. That is along with 5 wounds, T4, eternal warrior, and 4+ invuln.

And it still doesn't reduce Deep Strike scatter (until the turn after the Icon lands).
Is he still an IC with the chariot? If so, that's a 350 point unit. If not - are you trying to say you can't kill a W5 T4 4+invul model in one turn? Are you serious?

 Testify wrote:
Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?

Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.

Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.

Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?

I've always played Flamers, but before the WD update, they were playing as throwaway squads of three. When the WD update first came out I ran large groups of Flamers for a while but it did feel cheap, so I've scaled them back to 3-4 per squad, even in tournaments. I've always like the MCs better anyway.