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Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.

valace2 wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.

granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved

Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?

You dropped a Vindicator shell on a deep strikes unit (in perfect blast formation) and only got two wounds?
And that's your basis for calling cheese?

 blood reaper wrote:
Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.

ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.

I second that, I will gladly play an uphill battle against a list I know is better, but I wont even bother with a list that is impossible to win.

And T-demon spam is just silly powerful, you CANT compare flamers OR screamers to anything short of other "cheese spam" units, and playing against so many deep striking powerhouses that are fully capable of taking down half your army before you get to even respond, is just a pointless game.

(heck I am a low-budget Tau! EVERYTHING is uphill for me I enjoy even the losses as long I actually get to TRY to win.)

rigeld2 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.

granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved

Umm did you miss the part where I lobbed a Vindicator shell at them an only managed to kill two? So I take what an assault squad and shoot the flamers, ok the plan is to assault them afterward right?

You dropped a Vindicator shell on a deep strikes unit (in perfect blast formation) and only got two wounds?
And that's your basis for calling cheese?

No you are missing the point... man its like talking to a wall. I put the Vindicator shell on them direct hit perfect formation, i Wounded 7 times which might have killed a grand total of 3 count em 3 whole flamers out of 9, after a direct hit from a Vindicator round, he made three saves so he only lost 2 of his flamers, eternal warrior remember they don't die like normal anything in 40k.

I then proceeded to rapid fire two squad of Grey Hunters into them, I managed to kill off 5 of them which left two. Now I was lucky because he had a bad scatter and wasn't able to put his template down but he had those two left which then proceeded to kill off 8 Grey Hunters. But never fear he had two more units of Flamers to come on yet, his screamers were off strafing my Long Fangs.

valace2 wrote:
No you are missing the point... man its like talking to a wall. I put the Vindicator shell on them direct hit perfect formation, i Wounded 7 times which might have killed a grand total of 3 count em 3 whole flamers out of 9, after a direct hit from a Vindicator round, he made three saves so he only lost 2 of his flamers, eternal warrior remember they don't die like normal anything in 40k.

I then proceeded to rapid fire two squad of Grey Hunters into them, I managed to kill off 5 of them which left two. Now I was lucky because he had a bad scatter and wasn't able to put his template down but he had those two left which then proceeded to kill off 8 Grey Hunters. But never fear he had two more units of Flamers to come on yet, his screamers were off strafing my Long Fangs.

So basically, he managed an abnormally high amount of saves against the Vindicator hit. This is a game of dice - gak happens. I had a Carnifex die from 8 Splinter Pistol shots. He managed to hit and wound with 6, and I failed 5 saves. Abnormally high amount of hits and wounds and abnormally low amount of saves. That doesn't make Wyches an awesome shooting unit, it just means I rolled poorly, and he rolled well.

Iv played primary Tzeentch Daemons for years so Iv always played with a fair few Screamers and Flamers.

Since the WD update though Iv just swapped to playing my DE.

valace2 wrote:

No you are missing the point... man its like talking to a wall. I put the Vindicator shell on them direct hit perfect formation, i Wounded 7 times which might have killed a grand total of 3 count em 3 whole flamers out of 9, after a direct hit from a Vindicator round, he made three saves so he only lost 2 of his flamers, eternal warrior remember they don't die like normal anything in 40k.

I then proceeded to rapid fire two squad of Grey Hunters into them, I managed to kill off 5 of them which left two. Now I was lucky because he had a bad scatter and wasn't able to put his template down but he had those two left which then proceeded to kill off 8 Grey Hunters. But never fear he had two more units of Flamers to come on yet, his screamers were off strafing my Long Fangs.

Hide in your vehicles and stop shooting them with S8+since it don't do jack!
Daemons suck at killing vehicles at range since we have only 2 very costly sources of BS5+ Bolts. Everything else that can take a S8/ap1 single shot 'gun' is either BS4 (Tzeentch Heralds), or else a whimpy BS3...
Hide in transports at the *only* thing a Flamer/Screamer spam list can do to on their first turn is try to pop some transports. (Flamers will with enough template hits, but the Screamers are useless)

Or better yet, if you're going first, spread the feth out! Not only do you make it harder for those templates to nail lots of dudes, but using that full 2" coherency, you start to limit where the daemon player can safely land.

The Daemons only get half their army against your entire force! With smart deployment there's no way a bolter-based Marine army should be losing this match-up, especially when the Daemon player is sinking their pts into guys that cost at least 23pts a pop!
Fight fire with fire. Lose the stupid crap like vindies, meltaguns & plasmas which Daemons don't give two feth's about. Bring in the Heavy bolters, Asscans and Flamers. Throw in some I5 assaulty unit/s to clean-up the Screamers and you're golden.

Flamer/Screamer spam is simply yet another one-trick-poney army. Learn it's trick and you'll beat it. Hell, my friend recently laughed his way through a near-tabling of a 27 Flamer + 27 Screamer list with his Orks. Shoota Boyz do awful things to T4/5++ units, no matter how many wounds they have!

High volume low (ish) strength dakka will kill flamers fine. Throw S4/5/6 shots at them and they'll drop like flies.

People are just too used to high strength weapons being useful they forget they're useless against an army with no vehicles and army-wide Eternal Warrior.

They're also easy enough to assault - just throw a cheap unit at them first, then close in with the big boys. Obviously this varies from army to army in effectiveness.

While admittedly spam lists that have a faint reek of cheese are somewhat annoying I would never refuse a game because someone runs a list I don't like. I may be tabled in a few turns and lose but will take away from that game some wisdom for the next time I run into something similar.

And besides isn't the point of the game to make an army list that is successful? I mean if the point of the game was to make it easy for your opponent to win would you really want to play?

I am not trying to get down on anyone but all the whining about how OP certain armies are is just ridiculous because every army has it's weak points but it's just up to you to figure them out and exploit them.

valace2 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.

ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.

1 squad of all bolters is 20 shots, ~13 hit, ~7 wound, ~2 saves, so 2.5 Flamers dead.

1 squad of all bolters against a TAC squad. 20 shots, 13 hit, 7 wound, 5 saves, 2 dead.

It's like they're similar or something.

 DPBellathrom wrote:
people are calling daemons OP now? all we need now is one about tau and I've seen it all.

granted you'll loose the odd unit to flamers but they're a shooty unit so chop them. they land, kill something you then pepper them and charge them. problem solved

Charge them??
Wall of Death with flamers is a potential suicide.
D3 hits per flamer that on a 4+ ignores armor saves.

Balanced armies have a little trouble with these guys.
Necron airforce can outright lose to them Turn1.
Shooty armies deployed properly will rip them to shreds.

Potential suicide for the first unit to charge. The second unit walks in scott free.

valace2 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.

ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.

You only have one squad of Tactical Marines?

When did Eternal Warrior effect this situation?

It's called a Devastator squad, give them four Heavy Bolters (or five if your Long Fangs) and watch as the Flamers just disappear. Screamers aren't any better, the fact is, they have a 5+ save. It's quite poor, especially when it fails a majority of the time. Enough Tactical Marines will do the same job, as will any massed fire.

@Experiment 623 Screamers have 3 armour bane attacks each, so yeah, your advice won't help.

rigeld2 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.

ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.

1 squad of all bolters is 20 shots, ~13 hit, ~7 wound, ~2 saves, so 2.5 Flamers dead.

1 squad of all bolters against a TAC squad. 20 shots, 13 hit, 7 wound, 5 saves, 2 dead.

It's like they're similar or something.

Ok so what happens after the 7 remaining Flamers move up and start putting out their templates? I will save you the trouble they are dead. So using your math it would take 4 tactical squads all of whom are within rapid fire range to take out that 9 man Flamer squad.

valace2 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.

ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.

1 squad of all bolters is 20 shots, ~13 hit, ~7 wound, ~2 saves, so 2.5 Flamers dead.

1 squad of all bolters against a TAC squad. 20 shots, 13 hit, 7 wound, 5 saves, 2 dead.

It's like they're similar or something.

Ok so what happens after the 7 remaining Flamers move up and start putting out their templates? I will save you the trouble they are dead. So using your math it would take 4 tactical squads all of whom are within rapid fire range to take out that 9 man Flamer squad.

Devastators, Heavy Weapons, Vehicles.....

 blood reaper wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Basic fire power kills daemons with ease, it's not hard when almost all daemons have a 5+ save. Honestly, there is no need to whine when the army is heavily dilapidated.

ok sport how much tactical marines does it take to take out a unit of screamers and a unit of flamers thats 36 wounds on t4, 2 wounds, eternal warrior demons. I need one of those math whizzes to crunch the numbers for me.

You only have one squad of Tactical Marines?

When did Eternal Warrior effect this situation?

It's called a Devastator squad, give them four Heavy Bolters (or five if your Long Fangs) and watch as the Flamers just disappear. Screamers aren't any better, the fact is, they have a 5+ save. It's quite poor, especially when it fails a majority of the time. Enough Tactical Marines will do the same job, as will any massed fire.

@Experiment 623 Screamers have 3 armour bane attacks each, so yeah, your advice won't help.

So in a tournament when you don't know who you will be facing you will stick heavy bolters on your long range troops on the chance you might be facing deamons?

Or Hordes. You act like HBs are useless.

Then have a varied list.

You don't have to have all your units geared towards killing infantry, but have a forced with the ability to take on all comers. Right now, you just want people to say "daemons are overpowered", so whining is justified.

Also, Frag missiles instead of Krak.

Any Grey Knight player or Space Wolf player that is whining about the power of Daemons needs to STFU.

Grey Knights were so broken in 5th. And don't give me that b.s. about how "I just ran a fluffy list in 5th". Pleaaaseeeeee

You deserve everything you have with the current power level of daemons. I am glad the meta has changed, and Daemons
should be nasty. They are daemons after all.

And the part about how daemons weren't any good before this update is an Internet urban legend. I was undefeated against
Grey Knights with my Daemons in 5th. And that includes tabling such power builds as Draigo Wing (multiple times) and Purifier
Spam. They couldn't deal with 24 Bloodcrushers supported by Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster w\Blessing. It was always a massacre,
unless they tailored their list.

Firstborn wrote:
Any Grey Knight player or Space Wolf player that is whining about the power of Daemons needs to STFU.

Grey Knights were so broken in 5th. And don't give me that b.s. about how "I just ran a fluffy list in 5th". Pleaaaseeeeee

You deserve everything you have with the current power level of daemons. I am glad the meta has changed, and Daemons
should be nasty. They are daemons after all.

And the part about how daemons weren't any good before this update is an Internet urban legend. I was undefeated against
Grey Knights with my Daemons in 5th. And that includes tabling such power builds as Draigo Wing (multiple times) and Purifier
Spam. They couldn't deal with 24 Bloodcrushers supported by Fateweaver and a Bloodthirster w\Blessing. It was always a massacre,
unless they tailored their list.

just need to stfu huh? wow ok how about no skip.

There is nothing nor was there anything in the Grey Knight codex that was anywhere near as strong as Flamers and Screamers are now, and thanks for contradicting yourself. Grey Knights were so broken in 5th an yet you tabled them over and over again beating pretty much any list they made. Sounds like you are the superman of 40k players.

Of course I would expect no less than a full throated defense of daemons from a daemons player.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blood reaper wrote:
Then have a varied list.

You don't have to have all your units geared towards killing infantry, but have a forced with the ability to take on all comers. Right now, you just want people to say "daemons are overpowered", so whining is justified.

Yep its just whining after watching my all comers 2250 space wolf list get tabled by Daemons in turn 2, an then watching a Blood Angel list suffer the same fate.

Yep just whining, move along nothing to see here folks ignore the 18-27 flamers, and 18-27 screamers they ain't all that. Concentrate on the big fat green demon he is what you should worry about.

rigeld2 wrote:
Also, Frag missiles instead of Krak.

Yeah I don't get why people are knocking units that can take all Missile Launchers. I do play demons, including flamer spam, and all-missile launchers make me terrified. The turn after I deep-strike there'll be 4 plates each getting 6 (IIRC) underneath them, at strength 4. I would say max out on missile launchers and you can dominate your opponent's deployment. Make him deploy near his table edge so it'll take a while for the flamers to get up, even with jump packs it'll take them 2 or 3 turns to get up, during which they *will* be whittled down.

 Testify wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Also, Frag missiles instead of Krak.

Yeah I don't get why people are knocking units that can take all Missile Launchers. I do play demons, including flamer spam, and all-missile launchers make me terrified. The turn after I deep-strike there'll be 4 plates each getting 6 (IIRC) underneath them, at strength 4. I would say max out on missile launchers and you can dominate your opponent's deployment. Make him deploy near his table edge so it'll take a while for the flamers to get up, even with jump packs it'll take them 2 or 3 turns to get up, during which they *will* be whittled down.

An those missile launchers will all have line of sight? An not a single one will scatter? I would like to see that.

I actually was going to do that I even had a Rune Priest with Prescience there for rerolls unfortunately a full squad of screamers deepstriked nearby and did their skimming bucketfull of attacks and killed 3 of them and the sergeant.

These balance discussions remind me of the Starcraft community, particularly SC2.

People would offer solutions but people would scream "NO, I HAVE TO PLAY MY WAY."

Have you even considered trying different strategies? Different unit compositions? This is very rich coming from a Wardhunters player.

valace2 wrote:

An those missile launchers will all have line of sight? An not a single one will scatter? I would like to see that.

...I didn't say they would. I was giving actual *tactical* advice which some people find hard to deal with. 4 BS4 missile launchers will terrify any demon player, you can use that to manipulate where your opponent lands. Either he risks taking 4, 8 or 12 flak missile to the face, or he deep-strikes miles away from where he wants to be, thereby breaking up his line.

valace2 wrote:

I actually was going to do that I even had a Rune Priest with Prescience there for rerolls unfortunately a full squad of screamers deepstriked nearby and did their skimming bucketfull of attacks and killed 3 of them and the sergeant.

Screamers can't assault after deep strike. They're also pretty weak if you assault them first.

 Testify wrote:

valace2 wrote:

An those missile launchers will all have line of sight? An not a single one will scatter? I would like to see that.

...I didn't say they would. I was giving actual *tactical* advice which some people find hard to deal with. 4 BS4 missile launchers will terrify any demon player, you can use that to manipulate where your opponent lands. Either he risks taking 4, 8 or 12 flak missile to the face, or he deep-strikes miles away from where he wants to be, thereby breaking up his line.

valace2 wrote:

I actually was going to do that I even had a Rune Priest with Prescience there for rerolls unfortunately a full squad of screamers deepstriked nearby and did their skimming bucketfull of attacks and killed 3 of them and the sergeant.

Screamers can't assault after deep strike. They're also pretty weak if you assault them first.

Oh yea screamers are so weak, so incredibly weak!! I didn't realize it before, thanks for pointing that out. They can do their silly zoom over you and drop bucketfulls of hits. Its a shooting attack not a close combat attack.

An besides that they are so weak, with their 3 base attacks, and I4 an oh yea all of their close combat attacks are AP2 an have armourbane yep pretty weak in close combat those guys are. If you are playing Eldar or have Halberds then yea you might be able to pick off some but there are not a whole lot of units in the game that are I5 or higher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrScience wrote:
These balance discussions remind me of the Starcraft community, particularly SC2.

People would offer solutions but people would scream "NO, I HAVE TO PLAY MY WAY."

Have you even considered trying different strategies? Different unit compositions? This is very rich coming from a Wardhunters player.

An I guess the fact that I also play Tau, Guard, and Dark Angels means nothing, I have been playing Space Wolves since they originally came out in White Dwarf back during the Rogue Trader days and I play Grey Knights I must be a bootlicking Matt Ward Fanboy.

One question though? Are all Necron players Matt Ward bootlicking fanboys now?

While Valace is coming across rather...hostile. He does kind of have a point. The new demon units, and pretty much ONLY the new demon units are a little over the top in terms of damage output.

They are pretty much the perfect all comers unit, and there is almost nothing they cannot beat.

Horde? flamer template death.
MCs? They wound on a 4+, and ignore your save.
Good save/elite troops? Ignoring that save again, so those are points wasted.
Vehicles? A full squad will on average bury a Land Raider in 1 volley, 6 will toast any 3 HP vehicle.
Fast units trying to outrange/kite them? Well, they deepstrike, and move as jump infantry.
Melee troops? Wall of death will average 1 wound of damage output when they get charged per flamer (assuming no invul save). After that, they are still roughly comparable to SM assault marines in melee (minus the weapon skill of course).
Getting shot at? Well, they don't really need cover, since they have multiple wounds, ignore instant death, an invulnerable save built in, and often get the benefit of Fateweaver's aura on top of that.

The annoying thing is that there is no hard counter to them. Telling people to shoot the choppy bits and assault the shooty bits doesn't work here. They are purifiers all over again.

So that leaves focus fire and "tricks", aka, just outplaying the demon player. Sounds all well and good, until you get a demon player that's actually decent and knows how to deal with the tricks. Flamers are also fairly unique in that it will only take 2-3 of them to completely ruin just about any squad in your army from full strength to dead. Most units can be safely ignored once they are reduced well below half strength, but even 2 flamers have a solid chance of killing 5+ marines if they are left alone. I heard someone say that against the new Tzeench toys that any points spend on vehicles or armor saves are basically completely wasted, and I think that about sums up my opinion on them as well. Don't forget they can get comm's arrays now too, so will get the vast majority of their army by the second turn.

Odds are that when the new demon book comes out in February they won't have eternal warrior anymore, and I'd expect them to either go back to 35 points each or Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles. The unit feels like it's in a transition between 2 editions and 2 codexes, and came out WAY ahead because of it. Just hang in there for ~2-3 more months before you rage quit, because there's a really good chance they will be back to being utter crap again.

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Breath of Chaos will change to be AP4 or AP5, and/or not affect vehicles.

Because having only bolt of chaos for ranged vehicle breaking is going to wonderful again.

Yep. 5th edition tzeentch armies were an auto-lose against any army with more than 2 vehicles. Hence I don't have much sympathy for people whinging about flamers, especially since they seem to be GK/SW.