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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




rigeld2 wrote:
valace2 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
valace2 wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.


Then when you factor in a herald of tzeentch in with his 5 wounds, breath of chaos, and 4+ invuln the downsides of deepstriking are gone.

The herald reduces deep strike scatter? That's news to me. And makes the unit more points, so a comparison to an assault squad isn't valid.


He can take a chaos icon. a herald with chariot, bolt, breath of chaos and Icon is 150points. That is along with 5 wounds, T4, eternal warrior, and 4+ invuln.

And it still doesn't reduce Deep Strike scatter (until the turn after the Icon lands).
Is he still an IC with the chariot? If so, that's a 350 point unit. If not - are you trying to say you can't kill a W5 T4 4+invul model in one turn? Are you serious?


Well lets see, the flamers he dropped in were going to come in on his next turn and start roasting my units, he already had screamers in my face killing Long Fangs and the Herald. Again who do you focus on, the Flamers, the Screamers, or the Herald? It took 1 unit of Grey Hunters rapid firing and another unit of Grey Hunters firing single shot and a Vindicator shot to get the Flamer unit down to 1 model left. I put my Long Fangs (what was left after the initial Screamer strafing run, he managed to kill of 4 missile launchers) and another 15 Grey Hunter shots into the Screamers and whittled them down to 1. Didn't leave a lot to shoot at a 5W, T4, Eternal Warrior, and 4+ invuln model.

What do I shoot at in that situation. I had a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry kill off that last screamer. Silly me for taking Thunderwolf Cavalry, I looked at the stats for the Screamers and said WTF AP2 at I4, they nerfed power weapons only to allow this? How in the hell can they be AP2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 undertow wrote:
I've always played Flamers, but before the WD update, they were playing as throwaway squads of three. When the WD update first came out I ran large groups of Flamers for a while but it did feel cheap, so I've scaled them back to 3-4 per squad, even in tournaments. I've always like the MCs better anyway.


IMO MCs are eye candy in a spam Flamer/Screamer army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/26 17:57:25


 
   
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The Hive Mind





valace2 wrote:
 Testify wrote:
Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?

Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.


Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.

Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?

Priority should be the Herald then the Flamers with shooting, then assault priority the Herald and the Screamers.

You rolled poorly, he rolled well, it happens.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





valace2 wrote:
 Testify wrote:
Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?

Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.


Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.

Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?

So your Long Fangs, each of them BS4 with Frag Missiles, couldn't take out deep-strike clustered screamers (who, since they were next to your long fangs, would have been out of range of their own icons and easily in miss-hap territory)?

I thought most Space Wolf players took 3 squads of Long Fangs too. That's 12 plates,


Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Testify wrote:
valace2 wrote:
 Testify wrote:
Oh he can use the icon on the unit he deep-strikes with?

Losing a 300 point unit on a bad dice roll *during your first turn* is fething depressing.


Nope but he can on the turn after that. So I could try and kill the flamers who were going to come in an cook me next turn, the screamers who were in my face killing my Long Fangs or the Herald which brought nearly everything left in on turn two in my face.

Was a horrible decision any which way. Who would you have tried to kill?

So your Long Fangs, each of them BS4 with Frag Missiles, couldn't take out deep-strike clustered screamers (who, since they were next to your long fangs, would have been out of range of their own icons and easily in miss-hap territory)?

I thought most Space Wolf players took 3 squads of Long Fangs too. That's 12 plates,

The Screamers did their skimming run and landed next to the Skyshield Landing Pad I had my Long Fangs perched on they took out most of the missiles in that unit and landed out of sight of my third Long Fang squad I put 2 Lascannons and 3 missiles into them, one of the missiles scattered out of range, the 2nd hit only 3, and the 3rd hit 5 I think. So I ended up with a couple lascannon shots, 8 str4 frag hits and around 30 bolter shots(they weren't all bolter I had some melta an plasma in there but its all the same to daemons). I think I did well dealing 16 wounds. An they deep striked where they wanted to they didn't scatter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/26 18:20:48


 
   
Made in ca
Infiltrating Broodlord





Oshawa Ontario

rigeld2 wrote:
 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.


Fearless troops are immune to being swept too, and they don't need to auto-regroup because they never break. Never mind pinning tests.

Are you talking about ATSKNF combined with Combat tactics and being able to break via the auto-fail? Which is solid, but remember that only like 1 out of 5-ish marine armies have combat tactics.

Or are we talking about losing a combat, failing a morale test, succeeding on the sweeping advance roll then auto-rallying and getting another shooting phase/charge in? Because that's fairly uncommon and is double edged if they break in the wrong turn and allow your opponent's unit free to go after other targets or just re-shoot/charge you.

And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.

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USA

valace2 490877 5017237 null wrote:The Screamers did their skimming run and landed next to the Skyshield Landing Pad I had my Long Fangs perched on they took out most of the missiles in that unit and landed out of sight of my third Long Fang squad I put 2 Lascannons and 3 missiles into them, one of the missiles scattered out of range, the 2nd hit only 3, and the 3rd hit 5 I think. So I ended up with a couple lascannon shots, 8 str4 frag hits and around 30 bolter shots(they weren't all bolter I had some melta an plasma in there but its all the same to daemons). I think I did well dealing 16 wounds. An they deep striked where they wanted to they didn't scatter.

How about not placing your long fangs where they can be swept over by screamers? Adjusting your deployment to your opponents army is basic stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Carnage43 wrote:
And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.

I've grown to love the forced DS. It grants an amazing amount of flexibility to respond to your opponent. I don't even use Icons, and rarely use a skyshield pad unless it's a 2000+ point game.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 19:01:29


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 Carnage43 wrote:
Fearless troops are immune to being swept too, and they don't need to auto-regroup because they never break. Never mind pinning tests.

Yes, Fearless troops lose the 3" free movement on regroup.

Are you talking about ATSKNF combined with Combat tactics and being able to break via the auto-fail? Which is solid, but remember that only like 1 out of 5-ish marine armies have combat tactics.

That, and failing the LD test when you lose models to shooting, falling back (meaning you likely are our of range for assault), autoregroup and shoot the thing that shot you.

Or are we talking about losing a combat, failing a morale test, succeeding on the sweeping advance roll then auto-rallying and getting another shooting phase/charge in? Because that's fairly uncommon and is double edged if they break in the wrong turn and allow your opponent's unit free to go after other targets or just re-shoot/charge you.

IME it's relatively common actually.

And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.

And if you aren't being aggressive your opponent has much more time to deal with you. The OPs complaint was that everything was in his face. That kind of deployment is risky.

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Krazed Killa Kan






 Gunnvulcan wrote:
I really dont understand people that cry about "cheesy" armies. Why would i build an army to play, in a competitive game, that isnt as good as i can make it?

That would be like the US military send its troops into battle and saying "hold on guys. You need to take off that body armor, turn in your m16's, SAWs and vehicles. Here, take these ak-47's and toyota hilux's. We wouldnt want to be cheesy now, would we?".

People that cry about cheese are either: broke and cant buy the right units, stupid and dont listen to advise, or unskilled players.

So long as i'm playing, i'm going to field the best combination of units that gives me the highest consistant likelyhood of victory. Any other option is foolish, which is why i dont play codex marines right now, because they arent any good. My fists will come around someday


Almost as if they want to play the army that they enjoy playing, and that they want balanced competitive play.

I have a really solid question for you, who in their right mind would even bother with a game in which only one army is viable and the entire table is filled with WAACers? If Games Workshop isn't going to fix their game, it's up to the playerbase to do it. I'm surprised anybody at your local gameshop would bother with that kind of attitude.

Then again, Games Workshop said it their self, dude. It's in the rulebook. The most important rule is to have fun, irrespective of whatever else the rulebook says. If you aren't having fun and treating your opponents with respect, you're doing it wrong.

Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
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Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Here's a few suggestions from a Daemon player;

a) Don't take loads of meltas, plasmas, lascannons and other big guns! Daemons don't care and we love it when you still play like it's 5th edition and transporthammer!

Instead, sprinkle in some flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons & autocannons alongside your basic 'oodles of bolter Troops and suddenly we start liking things alot less... Daemons should be treated exactly like Orks or Tyranids or hoard IG. If you're trying to treat them like another MEQ army, well, good for you sunshine, you missed to boat on that one!

b) Don't spread your forces out when you deploy!!!

Daemons love it when MEQ's especially spread out and try to cover multiple areas. Why? Because we're really good at killing MEQ's & TEQ's, weather by shooting with Flamers, or chopping them with Screamers, 'Curshers, Fiends, Seekers, etc...
Castle-up. Play a refused flank deployment. STICK TOGETHER!!! Massed infantry all staying within support range of multiple units is an utter nightmare for Daemons because we're made of glass with only a few units actually bosting an armour save. Yes, the Daemons player will cause some damage and you will lose units. But we can't cause enough damage to a well defended infantry line because unlike every other army, we can only ever start with 50% of our forces!!!

c) Chariot Heralds of all alligneces are no longer IC's. So it's not like they're a hard target to pop. And here's a bigger hint; kill the Icon/s first! Make the Daemon player either take big risks to land the rest of their force, or else keep their drops at arms length.

d) Screamers are less terrifying when you're charging them. At the end of the day, when assault is inevitable, CHARGE! Deny the Screamers their bonus attacks, while you gain that bonus yourself. 10 Grey Hunters is easily capable of beating 5 Screamers on the charge. Yes you'll lose a few, but outside of wonky dice, you should win that fight! (30 attacks hitting on 3's vs 15 attack hitting on 4's?! on average you cause 10 wounds before saves to his meager 4-5 and likely wipe the squad...)
If you're really paranoid about Screamers, get some Storm Shields! Suddenly those Screamers now suck again as they're tarpitted by a better squad who hard-counters their biggest advantage.



As for Warp Quake and needing an 'uncompetitive' army to do so? Just shows you've never actually used WQ ever... Consider that only 1 ten-man squad, fully spaced out its max 2" coherency covers an automatic mishap area roughly 22"x30"! That's the auto-mishap area my friend.
30 Warp Quake models is all you need to give a Daemon player a viable deployment zone of just roughly 6"x8"... So, unless you're telling me that 20 Strikes + 10 Interceptors make for a horrible auto-lose army, you're just blowing smoke. (hint: that's actually a really freaking solid base to an army! Espeically when you can cheaply give the Strikes S5 basic guns, a pair of Psycannons and a cheap transport for another S6 multi-shot gun!)



All this thread is, is simply whining about bringing a poorly equiped 'Scissors' army against a spam list that turned out to be 'Rock'.

Try deploying with a bit of common sense and bringing something beyond melta/plasma/lascannons/krak rockets/vindicator and things should turn out a bit differently.
Bring 10 Strikes and lay them at the front of your army and if you win first turn and cast Warp Quake, well, no point even playing the game at that point - you just won by default of forcing the Daemons to land at least 20" away from you!

 
   
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 undertow wrote:
valace2 490877 5017237 null wrote:The Screamers did their skimming run and landed next to the Skyshield Landing Pad I had my Long Fangs perched on they took out most of the missiles in that unit and landed out of sight of my third Long Fang squad I put 2 Lascannons and 3 missiles into them, one of the missiles scattered out of range, the 2nd hit only 3, and the 3rd hit 5 I think. So I ended up with a couple lascannon shots, 8 str4 frag hits and around 30 bolter shots(they weren't all bolter I had some melta an plasma in there but its all the same to daemons). I think I did well dealing 16 wounds. An they deep striked where they wanted to they didn't scatter.

How about not placing your long fangs where they can be swept over by screamers? Adjusting your deployment to your opponents army is basic stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Carnage43 wrote:
And granted, forced DS is a downside, but that's the price of playing demons really. I personally hate DS'ing, as I don't like risking being blown up before the game really starts, but there are a great deal of people out there that play fairly aggressive DS armies. It's not like you have to deploy aggressively either. Proper use of icons and careful deployment combined with their solid movement speed, changes to the mishap table and pre-measuring now being a thing makes it as safe as it has ever been really.

I've grown to love the forced DS. It grants an amazing amount of flexibility to respond to your opponent. I don't even use Icons, and rarely use a skyshield pad unless it's a 2000+ point game.


Must be nice to have never lost a game. I bet you are undefeated aren't you, such a superior tactician and list builder. Man I wish i could be you. Just like the guy who went undefeated in 5th against the broken Grey Knights. with his daemons. Next time I will deploy my army against a foe not yet on the board just a little better. Better yet could I get your phone number so I could call you an make sure I do it correctly?
   
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Experiment 626 wrote:
Here's a few suggestions from a Daemon player;

a) Don't take loads of meltas, plasmas, lascannons and other big guns! Daemons don't care and we love it when you still play like it's 5th edition and transporthammer!

Instead, sprinkle in some flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons & autocannons alongside your basic 'oodles of bolter Troops and suddenly we start liking things alot less... Daemons should be treated exactly like Orks or Tyranids or hoard IG. If you're trying to treat them like another MEQ army, well, good for you sunshine, you missed to boat on that one!

b) Don't spread your forces out when you deploy!!!

Daemons love it when MEQ's especially spread out and try to cover multiple areas. Why? Because we're really good at killing MEQ's & TEQ's, weather by shooting with Flamers, or chopping them with Screamers, 'Curshers, Fiends, Seekers, etc...
Castle-up. Play a refused flank deployment. STICK TOGETHER!!! Massed infantry all staying within support range of multiple units is an utter nightmare for Daemons because we're made of glass with only a few units actually bosting an armour save. Yes, the Daemons player will cause some damage and you will lose units. But we can't cause enough damage to a well defended infantry line because unlike every other army, we can only ever start with 50% of our forces!!!

c) Chariot Heralds of all alligneces are no longer IC's. So it's not like they're a hard target to pop. And here's a bigger hint; kill the Icon/s first! Make the Daemon player either take big risks to land the rest of their force, or else keep their drops at arms length.

d) Screamers are less terrifying when you're charging them. At the end of the day, when assault is inevitable, CHARGE! Deny the Screamers their bonus attacks, while you gain that bonus yourself. 10 Grey Hunters is easily capable of beating 5 Screamers on the charge. Yes you'll lose a few, but outside of wonky dice, you should win that fight! (30 attacks hitting on 3's vs 15 attack hitting on 4's?! on average you cause 10 wounds before saves to his meager 4-5 and likely wipe the squad...)
If you're really paranoid about Screamers, get some Storm Shields! Suddenly those Screamers now suck again as they're tarpitted by a better squad who hard-counters their biggest advantage.



As for Warp Quake and needing an 'uncompetitive' army to do so? Just shows you've never actually used WQ ever... Consider that only 1 ten-man squad, fully spaced out its max 2" coherency covers an automatic mishap area roughly 22"x30"! That's the auto-mishap area my friend.
30 Warp Quake models is all you need to give a Daemon player a viable deployment zone of just roughly 6"x8"... So, unless you're telling me that 20 Strikes + 10 Interceptors make for a horrible auto-lose army, you're just blowing smoke. (hint: that's actually a really freaking solid base to an army! Espeically when you can cheaply give the Strikes S5 basic guns, a pair of Psycannons and a cheap transport for another S6 multi-shot gun!)



All this thread is, is simply whining about bringing a poorly equiped 'Scissors' army against a spam list that turned out to be 'Rock'.

Try deploying with a bit of common sense and bringing something beyond melta/plasma/lascannons/krak rockets/vindicator and things should turn out a bit differently.
Bring 10 Strikes and lay them at the front of your army and if you win first turn and cast Warp Quake, well, no point even playing the game at that point - you just won by default of forcing the Daemons to land at least 20" away from you!


Oh my holy god where to start. Grey Hunters might be able to kill off a 5 man unit of Screamers, did they cause 4 wounds with their bolt pistols? In the standard board setup with terrain how do you fit 40-50 Grey Hunters 2 Vindicators, a skyshield landing pad, an 5 thunderwolf cavalry without spreading that out. Bunch up the Grey Hunters and Cav so they are nice an juicy targets for templates or blasts or try to space them out? Oh wise an awesome player how do you get all that together?

The next time I will sprinkle in some flamers and assault cannons and take some dreadnoughts because they are the only way to get autocannons in a Grey Knight or Space Wolf army(space wolves can take predators ooooohh predators with autocannons gives me chills just thinking about it). Course those flamers aren't going to do me a whole hell of lot of good when Deathwing is coming at me, or other marine terminator units. Guess I can just warm em up a bit before they kill me.

How exactly do Grey Hunters or Grey Knights get Storm Shields? Did I miss something? It costs 48 points to get a Wolf Guard Terminator a Storm Shield to go along with a power weapon (what will that do against a daemon?) and a basic Wolf Guard model with a Storm Shield is 43 points with a bolt pistol. Also is there some super secret way for Grey Knights to get a Storm Shields?

As for Warp Quake this was the first time we have had more than one daemon player at one of our tournaments our resident daemon player doesn't use cheese even though I wouldn't blame him for upping his flamer count an picking up some Screamers. An yes I know full well what Warp Quake can do and if you hadn't noticed any tournament list I make from now on will either include GK allies or be the primary themselves. As I said above my experience with daemons is limited.

What exactly is a scissors army? Yep poorly equipped army that lost 10-9 to a Necron/Orc force that had 3 flyers when I had no quad gun or flyers of my own(doom scythes are hadcore) , and soundly thumped a decent vanilla marine list.

Yep my bad, can I get your phone number so I can have you fix my list before the next tournament, because obviously I have no idea what I am doing. Thunderwolf Cavalry WTF was I thinking.

lol just noticed your comment on the Strike Squad. hehehe thats funny thanks for making me laugh. You do realize thats 290 points for that squad right. lol. Compared to a 207 point flamer unit that has nearly twice as many wounds. Thats 860 points for just the Strike Squads an 1 interceptor squad. If you go first yes Deamons are screwed, I would go with a 2nd Interceptor squad because that guarantees that the Deamons auto lose of course its nearly if I go first. Now tell me how that is supposed to beat Orcs, Imp Guard, or Blood Angels?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 21:51:26


 
   
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USA

valace2 wrote:
Must be nice to have never lost a game. I bet you are undefeated aren't you, such a superior tactician and list builder. Man I wish i could be you. Just like the guy who went undefeated in 5th against the broken Grey Knights. with his daemons. Next time I will deploy my army against a foe not yet on the board just a little better. Better yet could I get your phone number so I could call you an make sure I do it correctly?
Given the amount of whining you're doing in this thread and your general refusal to take advice, I don't think any amount of phone calls can help you. There are numerous Daemon players in this thread telling you what works against us and you just don't want to listen. I'll give it one last try though, it's actually pretty simple:

1. you know that the opponent can DS anywhere on the board.
2. you know he has units that can turbo-boost over your units and inflict sweeping attacks.
3. deploy your units in such a way that your opponent has to make a risky DS to be able to sweep your stuff or can't sweep them because he can't fit his Screamers in a good spot after the turbo boost. For example: put your longfangs in a corner. or other board edge. If he can't fly over you and land on the other side, he can't sweep you.

As I already said, responding to your enemy's deployment (or potential deployment) is a basic part of this game, like spacing units out so they don't get as many hits from blast markers and templates.

Also, your responses sound like an angry 12 year old wrote them. Many of the people posting in this thread are trying to help you and offer advice.

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Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






The Midlands

Valance please, man up. Whining, moaning and sarcasm won't do anything. Stop acting like a dick and open thy ears (or eyes), be respectful and there is much help on Dakka. Be prepared to back down, admit that you are overreacting and take on our advice. We are trying to be helpful but patience is limited.

No army is unbeatable, a couple of bad experiences is no where near enough to cry cheese and broken. If you continue to lose then maybe you should learn from your mistakes.

Grey Knights are just marines with a few extras. Blow up any transports and shoot them. Paladins die easily enough from S8 and above, guess what? - T4, 2 Wounds and a 5+* is exactly what Flamers have.

Flamers die easily enough from high volume fire, learn to use your units effectively. Prepare to take losses, charge with them with more than one unit and tie them up for the remainder of the game. There is a large amount of danger in trying to Deepstrike a large army. Even then they may not come in on the turn to Daemon player wants. Yes they are cheap, but why is a Space Wolf player complaining when Grey Hunters are 15pts each, you have Long Fangs and you HQ's have a very large range of customisation.

OK, fire your Vindicator at Horrors or Screamers, more will be taken off that way. Charge TWC into any more Horrors. You think 4+* is good? Why no Storm Shields on your TWC? Flamers and Screamers are easy fry for Grey Hunters (BTW they are AP2 because they can bite into Starships).

Why not try charging Flamers with your TWC. Have two Squads of 3 with two Battle Leaders as cheap as possible on Thunder Wolves. All with Storm Shields. Guess what? You now have T5, 2 Wound Cavalry with a 3+*. Overwatch shouldn't be overwhelming if you whittle them down with Long Fangs. Now they need 5's to hit and wound the Battle Leader, you get 5 attacks each on the charge, don't bother with power weapons if you want to optimise for points.

A stand alone Herald is an easy target regardless of wounds and save.

Congratulations, you have just list tailored, please tell me this isn't cheating either.

 
   
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 phantommaster wrote:
Valance please, man up. Whining, moaning and sarcasm won't do anything. Stop acting like a dick and open thy ears (or eyes), be respectful and there is much help on Dakka. Be prepared to back down, admit that you are overreacting and take on our advice. We are trying to be helpful but patience is limited.

No army is unbeatable, a couple of bad experiences is no where near enough to cry cheese and broken. If you continue to lose then maybe you should learn from your mistakes.

Grey Knights are just marines with a few extras. Blow up any transports and shoot them. Paladins die easily enough from S8 and above, guess what? - T4, 2 Wounds and a 5+* is exactly what Flamers have.

Flamers die easily enough from high volume fire, learn to use your units effectively. Prepare to take losses, charge with them with more than one unit and tie them up for the remainder of the game. There is a large amount of danger in trying to Deepstrike a large army. Even then they may not come in on the turn to Daemon player wants. Yes they are cheap, but why is a Space Wolf player complaining when Grey Hunters are 15pts each, you have Long Fangs and you HQ's have a very large range of customisation.

OK, fire your Vindicator at Horrors or Screamers, more will be taken off that way. Charge TWC into any more Horrors. You think 4+* is good? Why no Storm Shields on your TWC? Flamers and Screamers are easy fry for Grey Hunters (BTW they are AP2 because they can bite into Starships).

Why not try charging Flamers with your TWC. Have two Squads of 3 with two Battle Leaders as cheap as possible on Thunder Wolves. All with Storm Shields. Guess what? You now have T5, 2 Wound Cavalry with a 3+*. Overwatch shouldn't be overwhelming if you whittle them down with Long Fangs. Now they need 5's to hit and wound the Battle Leader, you get 5 attacks each on the charge, don't bother with power weapons if you want to optimise for points.

A stand alone Herald is an easy target regardless of wounds and save.

Congratulations, you have just list tailored, please tell me this isn't cheating either.


I am gonna let this rest, because frankly it is boring the hell out of me, an being called a 12 year old hurts my feelings.

A Paladin fails his 2+ save(he should make that save I know) to a Krak missile and what happens? Ya know what forget the krak missile say a Lascannon hits a Paladin an he fails his 5+ save(very very possible) and what happens? You have a dead 55 point terminator. You shoot a Krak or a Lascannon round at a Flamer OR a Screamer what happens? They laugh it off an keep coming. Lets compare points because you want to compare Flamers to Paladins 9 Flamers = 207 points, 9 Paladins no Psycannons 495 points and what happens The Paladins have to get within 24" to be able to shoot them with Storm Bolters, you have 18 shots hit with say 13 of them wound 7 and the daemon fails all 7 he still has 6 flamers to jump in and cook Paladins, 2 wounds or not you are going to lose a lot of Paladins.

You don't think I understand the tactics? Shoot them, shoot them some more, and if any of your people are still alive keep shooting. Then turn around and face Tyranids and die because Storm Bolters aren't going to hurt t6 MC's, or Night Scythes come in and death ray your units into swiss cheese.

You would honestly go after the Herald and sacrifice an entire unit of troops? What happens after that unit dies you have a 9 man unit of flamers in your lines cooking all of your pretty power armoured marines? You guys seem to think Deep Strike is this evil thing that never works. If anything 6th has made it easier to deep striking units. Well if they roll the result that allows me to place them as far away from me as possible, Screamers will be back in a couple of turns, Flamers who mishap in turn 1 would be back by turn 3.

Anyway IMO an that of several others in this thread Screamers and Flamers are so over the top good now, it really is digusting I would place them at 1st and 3rd with Assault Terminators in at the 2nd spot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 22:28:49


 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Juggernaut





Australia

Best bits of advice I have seen people offer so far to stop daemons are probably, castle up, dividing your force will see you picked apart and dont max out of anti-vehicle stuff.

Dark Eldar- 1500pts Completed
Grey Knights- 1500pts 1 Guy done
Chaos Daemons- Approx 5000pts
Slaanesh Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Khorne Daemons- 1500pts, in progress
Death Korps of Krieg- Plans being formulated.
---------------------------------------------------
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I actually get around this a very evil way... I play deathwing. Usually in the middle of the game I have one squad really low in termies and one that is untouched (usually the counter assault squad with all the lightning claws). I have the maybe one last member (sometimes two) charge the flamers first, they either die or survive with their storm shields, and the 5 lightning claws come in and rape.

As someone who does play a lot of Deathwing however, it is somewhat annoying that one unit of 9 flamers can literally cook an entire terminator squad and not die to missiles.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 22:54:21


 
   
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fidel wrote:
I actually get around this a very evil way... I play deathwing. Usually in the middle of the game I have one squad really low in termies and one that is untouched (usually the counter assault squad with all the lightning claws). I have the maybe one last member (sometimes two) charge the flamers first, they either die or survive with their storm shields, and the 5 lightning claws come in and rape.

As someone who does play a lot of Deathwing however, it is somewhat annoying that one unit of 9 flamers can literally cook an entire terminator squad and not die to missiles.




That is really my point. After that Vindicator shot, I decided that I would rather face 500 orcs than spam Flamers/Screamers. You put a 10 man TH/SS termator squad on the table against a 9 man unit of flamers 31" apart and the Flamers will rape that Terminator Unit. A unit of Screamers won't fare as well as the Flamers but they will still cripple the terminator squad. Their offensive capabilities aside 2 wound eternal warrior squads were a horrible idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/26 23:12:48


 
   
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Auckland, New Zealand

I just had to laugh at the people who called a squad of thunder wolves with storm shields a cheap counter to flamers.

A squad of five thunderwolves with storm shields is 400 points. Throw in the battle leader and you're over 550. Will such a squad mash a 200 point squad of flamers? Probably, but there isn't much else in your army. Two squads? Fuggedaboutit.

The challenge was simple enough. Propose an all-comers Space Wolf army that can deal with the range of armies you'd find in a tournament, along with a flamer/screamer heavy daemon list.

Telling someone to switch out their heavy and special weapons for flamers and heavy bolters does no good, because even if those gave an advantage against daemons they'd leave the player hamstrung when fighting armies with armour or monstrous creatures.

The flexibility of missile launchers provides some options, but if we assume that you get three hits per template, that's still only one wound per missile, you need 18 wounds to destroy a flamer squad, and you do need to destroy it.

If a full Long Fang pack could be guaranteed to inflict five wounds on a flamer squad, you'd still need more than the spammed three full squads of Long Fangs (around 400 points) to completely destroy one squad.

A Grey Hunter pack firing 8 bolters and 2 plasma guns at short range will inflict about 5 wounds on the squad also, so again you need more than three squads to take down one. Of course concentration of fire is important, but that's 600 points of Grey Hunters shooting 200 points of flamers, and not shooting the other 1650 points in the daemon army.

If I were the daemon player I'd be very happy with that arrangement.


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Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I just had to laugh at the people who called a squad of thunder wolves with storm shields a cheap counter to flamers.

A squad of five thunderwolves with storm shields is 400 points. Throw in the battle leader and you're over 550. Will such a squad mash a 200 point squad of flamers? Probably, but there isn't much else in your army. Two squads? Fuggedaboutit.

The challenge was simple enough. Propose an all-comers Space Wolf army that can deal with the range of armies you'd find in a tournament, along with a flamer/screamer heavy daemon list.

Telling someone to switch out their heavy and special weapons for flamers and heavy bolters does no good, because even if those gave an advantage against daemons they'd leave the player hamstrung when fighting armies with armour or monstrous creatures.

The flexibility of missile launchers provides some options, but if we assume that you get three hits per template, that's still only one wound per missile, you need 18 wounds to destroy a flamer squad, and you do need to destroy it.

If a full Long Fang pack could be guaranteed to inflict five wounds on a flamer squad, you'd still need more than the spammed three full squads of Long Fangs (around 400 points) to completely destroy one squad.

A Grey Hunter pack firing 8 bolters and 2 plasma guns at short range will inflict about 5 wounds on the squad also, so again you need more than three squads to take down one. Of course concentration of fire is important, but that's 600 points of Grey Hunters shooting 200 points of flamers, and not shooting the other 1650 points in the daemon army.

If I were the daemon player I'd be very happy with that arrangement.


You sir are my hero (an I mean that in a good way). My frustration at the constant just shoot them a bunch comments was beginning to boil over, hence the sarcasm.

You hit the nail on the head it is very very difficult to build an all comers list that will affectively deal with Screamers and Flamers, and you hit the nail on the head with the Thunderwolves.

Think about it like this, because this was pretty much what happened last weekend. You are sitting around a poker table playing Texas Hold Em with a group of guys an people get up a bit or down a bit, an a couple guys walk up to join the game an are just given an Ace as one of their two down cards each hand. Will they win every hand because of this? No prolly not but they will win more than their share thats for sure. Thats what Flamers an Screamers do for Daemons. No other codex has multiple game breaking units.

An after the results of tournaments like Ard Boyz an Adepticon start rolling in, this will all be confirmed.

GW's product releases are brilliant they really are. Flak missiles in the new CSM codex proves that after 6th came out their was a spike in flyer sales, so GW has to do something to counter that so we have Flak missiles, an the rumored 2nd wave of new flyers. Its pretty much a given that each new codex will have some sort of flyer defense. So flyer sales will dry up a bit but they will be selling more anti flyer stuff so its a wash. Same with Daemons right now they are prolly selling the crap out of them now, but when a new codex comes out in a year they will come down to earth.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/11/26 23:54:07


 
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Treat Flamers & Screamers like you would a hoard of Orks or Genestealers.
we're not saying trade in every last bit of anti-tank for pure anti-infantry, what we're saying is don't go full-on anti-mech/TEQ and expect it do against Daemons! Just like you wouldn't max-out on meltas/plasmas or vindicators to tackle Orks or Tyranids!

Castle-up you deployment. If you don't think you can safely fit 40+ 'Hunters, a Skyshield platform, Thunderwolves et all in there, then drop something huge like the Skyshield pad and get an Aegis line instead!
And when you castle-up, there's very little room for those Daemons to safely land and alpha-strike you when they're using larger squads. As pointed out, there's also far less room for those annoying Screamers to do their fly-by attacks as there won't be sufficient room to place them in a decent formation afterwards. (if at all!)

You want a good SW list to counter Flamers/Screamer spam? Try something like;
HQ: 2x Rune Priests w/Living Lightning
Elites: Wolf Guard w/Storm shields. Even 5 of 'em will do.
Troops: 2x Grey Hunters w/Plasma or Melta + 1-2x Grey Hunters w/Flamers
Fast: 2x Land Speeders w/asscans and Multi-melta (if you fear big gribblies or other armoured opponents) or Heavy Bolters (if you want a small, specialised anti-infantry unit)
Heavy: 2x Longfangs w/2 Heavy Bolters + 3 Missile launchers & 1x Longfangs w/Missile launchers. (place both Priests in one of the first two squads)

There. A nice solid all-rounder that isn't overly focused on just one type of opponent. And if you still really fear armoured opponents, then swap those plasmas for meltas. If you don't want to sink pts into Storm Shield Wolf Guard, then ally in an Inquisitor and a big unit of Crusaders + Deathcults w/power mauls. Or try out Fenrisian Wolves as cheap assaulters, or look into allying in some Hammernators... (or even god-forbid, you bring in a big squad of Blood Claws led by a Wolf Priest who only gives them 'Prefered Enemy - whatever!')

Bring back your transports for a couple of your squads. Daemons suck at ranged anti-armour, so laugh as they waste their turn frying cheap transports, only to then sit there in rapid fire and counter-assault range!

Space Wolves are well equiped to deal with Daemons. Grey Knights don't even have to try!

Hell, with Grey Knights, you can for example counter those 'OP Screamers' with basic sword-wielding Termies who get a 4++, or better yet, multi-wound Pallies w/swords... or bring out ANYthing with Halberds! Or go for the extreme overkill of funny 'nades in a squad of power maul Deathcults... The list goes on.



Seriously, 40k Daemons are nowhere near the OP levels of 5th ed GK's, or 6th ed Flyer spam...

...or god forbid, 7th ed Fantasy Daemons!!! (you've never seen what "OMG broken!1!!1!!!11!" REALLY is until you've suffered 7th ed Fantasy Daemons...)

 
   
Made in us
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Experiment 626 wrote:
Treat Flamers & Screamers like you would a hoard of Orks or Genestealers.
we're not saying trade in every last bit of anti-tank for pure anti-infantry, what we're saying is don't go full-on anti-mech/TEQ and expect it do against Daemons! Just like you wouldn't max-out on meltas/plasmas or vindicators to tackle Orks or Tyranids!

Castle-up you deployment. If you don't think you can safely fit 40+ 'Hunters, a Skyshield platform, Thunderwolves et all in there, then drop something huge like the Skyshield pad and get an Aegis line instead!
And when you castle-up, there's very little room for those Daemons to safely land and alpha-strike you when they're using larger squads. As pointed out, there's also far less room for those annoying Screamers to do their fly-by attacks as there won't be sufficient room to place them in a decent formation afterwards. (if at all!)

You want a good SW list to counter Flamers/Screamer spam? Try something like;
HQ: 2x Rune Priests w/Living Lightning
Elites: Wolf Guard w/Storm shields. Even 5 of 'em will do.
Troops: 2x Grey Hunters w/Plasma or Melta + 1-2x Grey Hunters w/Flamers
Fast: 2x Land Speeders w/asscans and Multi-melta (if you fear big gribblies or other armoured opponents) or Heavy Bolters (if you want a small, specialised anti-infantry unit)
Heavy: 2x Longfangs w/2 Heavy Bolters + 3 Missile launchers & 1x Longfangs w/Missile launchers. (place both Priests in one of the first two squads)

There. A nice solid all-rounder that isn't overly focused on just one type of opponent. And if you still really fear armoured opponents, then swap those plasmas for meltas. If you don't want to sink pts into Storm Shield Wolf Guard, then ally in an Inquisitor and a big unit of Crusaders + Deathcults w/power mauls. Or try out Fenrisian Wolves as cheap assaulters, or look into allying in some Hammernators... (or even god-forbid, you bring in a big squad of Blood Claws led by a Wolf Priest who only gives them 'Prefered Enemy - whatever!')

Bring back your transports for a couple of your squads. Daemons suck at ranged anti-armour, so laugh as they waste their turn frying cheap transports, only to then sit there in rapid fire and counter-assault range!

Space Wolves are well equiped to deal with Daemons. Grey Knights don't even have to try!

Hell, with Grey Knights, you can for example counter those 'OP Screamers' with basic sword-wielding Termies who get a 4++, or better yet, multi-wound Pallies w/swords... or bring out ANYthing with Halberds! Or go for the extreme overkill of funny 'nades in a squad of power maul Deathcults... The list goes on.

Seriously, 40k Daemons are nowhere near the OP levels of 5th ed GK's, or 6th ed Flyer spam...

...or god forbid, 7th ed Fantasy Daemons!!! (you've never seen what "OMG broken!1!!1!!!11!" REALLY is until you've suffered 7th ed Fantasy Daemons...)


Thats a nice list. How does it deal with flyers? What happens when you face off against a squad of TH/SS terminators? How does it deal with LRBTs?

An seriously you lost me with the Daemons being nowhere near as OP as Grey Knights were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How does the list you just wrote up deal with this, and please keep in mind I don't know daemons that well I am using Army Builder and using the point costs for screamers and flamers from WD

Herald of Tzeentch w/ Chariot, Breath of Chaos, an Chaos Icon

5x Fiends of Tzeentch

9x Flamers
9x Flamers

5x Plaguebearers
5x Plaguebearers
5x Plaguebearers

9x Screamers
9x Screamers.
9x Screamers

Thats 90 wounds worth of Flamers and Screamers and you think that list you wrote up can deal with that many wounds before they are on top of you?



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 00:26:00


 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Bellingham, WA

Experiment 626 wrote:
Here's a few suggestions from a Daemon player;

a) Don't take loads of meltas, plasmas, lascannons and other big guns! Daemons don't care and we love it when you still play like it's 5th edition and transporthammer!

Instead, sprinkle in some flamers, heavy bolters, assault cannons & autocannons alongside your basic 'oodles of bolter Troops and suddenly we start liking things alot less... Daemons should be treated exactly like Orks or Tyranids or hoard IG. If you're trying to treat them like another MEQ army, well, good for you sunshine, you missed to boat on that one!

b) Don't spread your forces out when you deploy!!!

Daemons love it when MEQ's especially spread out and try to cover multiple areas. Why? Because we're really good at killing MEQ's & TEQ's, weather by shooting with Flamers, or chopping them with Screamers, 'Curshers, Fiends, Seekers, etc...
Castle-up. Play a refused flank deployment. STICK TOGETHER!!! Massed infantry all staying within support range of multiple units is an utter nightmare for Daemons because we're made of glass with only a few units actually bosting an armour save. Yes, the Daemons player will cause some damage and you will lose units. But we can't cause enough damage to a well defended infantry line because unlike every other army, we can only ever start with 50% of our forces!!!

c) Chariot Heralds of all alligneces are no longer IC's. So it's not like they're a hard target to pop. And here's a bigger hint; kill the Icon/s first! Make the Daemon player either take big risks to land the rest of their force, or else keep their drops at arms length.

d) Screamers are less terrifying when you're charging them. At the end of the day, when assault is inevitable, CHARGE! Deny the Screamers their bonus attacks, while you gain that bonus yourself. 10 Grey Hunters is easily capable of beating 5 Screamers on the charge. Yes you'll lose a few, but outside of wonky dice, you should win that fight! (30 attacks hitting on 3's vs 15 attack hitting on 4's?! on average you cause 10 wounds before saves to his meager 4-5 and likely wipe the squad...)
If you're really paranoid about Screamers, get some Storm Shields! Suddenly those Screamers now suck again as they're tarpitted by a better squad who hard-counters their biggest advantage.



As for Warp Quake and needing an 'uncompetitive' army to do so? Just shows you've never actually used WQ ever... Consider that only 1 ten-man squad, fully spaced out its max 2" coherency covers an automatic mishap area roughly 22"x30"! That's the auto-mishap area my friend.
30 Warp Quake models is all you need to give a Daemon player a viable deployment zone of just roughly 6"x8"... So, unless you're telling me that 20 Strikes + 10 Interceptors make for a horrible auto-lose army, you're just blowing smoke. (hint: that's actually a really freaking solid base to an army! Espeically when you can cheaply give the Strikes S5 basic guns, a pair of Psycannons and a cheap transport for another S6 multi-shot gun!)



All this thread is, is simply whining about bringing a poorly equiped 'Scissors' army against a spam list that turned out to be 'Rock'.

Try deploying with a bit of common sense and bringing something beyond melta/plasma/lascannons/krak rockets/vindicator and things should turn out a bit differently.
Bring 10 Strikes and lay them at the front of your army and if you win first turn and cast Warp Quake, well, no point even playing the game at that point - you just won by default of forcing the Daemons to land at least 20" away from you!



This is some of the best advice I have seen thus far and would advise that anyone that is having issues playing versus Daemons take heed.

Heralds of Rot CSM 4000 pts


"In short there is no Order only Chaos eternal so lament and be quelled with fear if you serve the False Emperor or accept the gifts bestowed by the pantheon of the four gods and rejoice as the galaxy burns." - Unknown Wordbearer  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





valace2 wrote:

Must be nice to have never lost a game. I bet you are undefeated aren't you, such a superior tactician and list builder. Man I wish i could be you. Just like the guy who went undefeated in 5th against the broken Grey Knights. with his daemons. Next time I will deploy my army against a foe not yet on the board just a little better. Better yet could I get your phone number so I could call you an make sure I do it correctly?

The fact that you regard going first against an army that *has* to deep-strike as a disadvantage is...telling.

Did you know that you can influence your opponant's placements determined by your own firepower? Depending on your army make-up, you can make sections of the board unplayable.

Hell just take Grey Knight allies for a cheap Strike Squad. I don't like *having* to use allies either, but I'm not going to call cheese on my opponents for using flyers (though admitidly they can be en masse).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

This is some of the best advice I have seen thus far and would advise that anyone that is having issues playing versus Daemons take heed.

I'll second this as a Tzeentch Demon player who runs Fateweaver lists, with flamers and multiple Lords of change.

Especially about the special weapons. You don't need any plasmas, meltas or lascannons. At all. But a 50 point PCS squad with flamers can and will cause a deep striking unit a world of pain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 01:25:02


Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
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Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
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The Hive Mind





 Savageconvoy wrote:
Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.

It's a balance. It is possible to take both - it's not a binary decision.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Savageconvoy wrote:
Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.

OP wanted advice on beating a specific army, he didn't want TAC advice.

I'd agree that in a TAC environment demons would be very powerful, possibly as powerful as GK in 5th (which were more or less impossible to counter).

Unnessesarily extravegant word of the week award goes to jcress410 for this:

jcress wrote:Seem super off topic to complain about epistemology on a thread about tactics.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Savageconvoy wrote:
Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.


They don't want to hear that, they want you to build a list that can beat daemons to show that daemons are not OP. Trouble is, and they won't admit this, by the time you switch enough of your own guns over to heavy infantry you can't deal with terminators, MCs or flyers.. I guess everyone should be playing Guard, Orcs, or Nids.

Ya want a list that can beat Daemons here goes.

Coteaz
Xenos Inquisitor Psyker

10x Strike Squad w/ 2x Psycannon an Psybolt ammo
10x Strike Squad w/ 2x Psycannon an Psybolt ammo

12x Acolytes w/ 3x flamers an Storm Bolter
12x Acolytes w/ 3x Flamers an Bolter
10x Acolytes w/ 3x Flamers and Storm Bolters

10x Interceptors w/ 2x Psycannon an Psybolt Ammo
5x Interceptors w/ Psycannon.

5x Purgation squad w/4x Psilencers.

There if I go first I win. If I go second I can still combat squad an shunt the Interceptors around the board to lock off certain areas and pop off Warp Quake where the Strike Squads are maybe even combat squad them too. Should have enough bolters to kill daemons now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Testify wrote:
 Savageconvoy wrote:
Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.

OP wanted advice on beating a specific army, he didn't want TAC advice.

I'd agree that in a TAC environment demons would be very powerful, possibly as powerful as GK in 5th (which were more or less impossible to counter).


Oh come now, someone earlier said that they were unbeaten against Grey Knights with Daemons in 5th. Impossible to counter? Not for that guy.

An yes at first I wanted some advice but I just don't see it. I say Daemons beat Wolves most of the time, but I would really like to see how you would build an all comers list that could deal with daemons. An all comers list for Daemons includes as many flamers and screamers as you can fit in, so with daemons its really a no brainer.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/27 03:04:55


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





valace2 wrote:
 Savageconvoy wrote:
Everyone that recommends not taking plasma, lascannons, and Melta: How is that an all comers list? You're recommending that they don't bring vital equipment used against the other 13 armies.


They don't want to hear that, they want you to build a list that can beat daemons to show that daemons are not OP. Trouble is, and they won't admit this, by the time you switch enough of your own guns over to heavy infantry you can't deal with terminators, MCs or flyers.. I guess everyone should be playing Guard, Orcs, or Nids.

Have you been paying attention at all? I've made TAC suggestions. Your assertion is absolutely untrue.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





rigeld2 wrote:
 Carnage43 wrote:
27 wounds to a T4 units actually (27 * 0.66 = 18 wounds, you did the math backwards)

Here's an interesting comparison for you.

Flamer = 23 points, SM Assault marine = 18 points.

Both are S, T, I of 4, 2 attacks, 3 on the charge
Both are jump infantry
The 3+ save of the ASM vs the W2 5++ of the flamer equal out when hits by small arms.

Now, if you crunch the numbers and think about it from a different point of view, you pay 5 points per model, or trade your powerfist/weapon and melta-guns for the following;

Always have to DS Huge downside. People write it off as negligible but mishaps hurt.
Switch ATSKNF for fear and fearlessAnother huge downside. ATSKNF is amazing.

I added the bold. Ignoring those huge downsides helps you make your point, but doesn't actually give you much support. Immunity to being swept? Yes please. Auto regroup? Yes please.
Fearless is good now, but the tactical advantage of falling back and auto-regrouping is really nice.



Yes he ignored those downsides, he also ignored the fact they are 2 wounds a piece. Flamers get double the wounds, a invul save, eternal warrior, a flamer attack which ignores armour and cover saves, a assault 3 attack for 5 pts more. ASM get a 12" range 1 shot BP attack. I know what I would rather have


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Treat Flamers & Screamers like you would a hoard of Orks or Genestealers.
we're not saying trade in every last bit of anti-tank for pure anti-infantry, what we're saying is don't go full-on anti-mech/TEQ and expect it do against Daemons! Just like you wouldn't max-out on meltas/plasmas or vindicators to tackle Orks or Tyranids!

Castle-up you deployment. If you don't think you can safely fit 40+ 'Hunters, a Skyshield platform, Thunderwolves et all in there, then drop something huge like the Skyshield pad and get an Aegis line instead!
And when you castle-up, there's very little room for those Daemons to safely land and alpha-strike you when they're using larger squads. As pointed out, there's also far less room for those annoying Screamers to do their fly-by attacks as there won't be sufficient room to place them in a decent formation afterwards. (if at all!)

You want a good SW list to counter Flamers/Screamer spam? Try something like;
HQ: 2x Rune Priests w/Living Lightning
Elites: Wolf Guard w/Storm shields. Even 5 of 'em will do.
Troops: 2x Grey Hunters w/Plasma or Melta + 1-2x Grey Hunters w/Flamers
Fast: 2x Land Speeders w/asscans and Multi-melta (if you fear big gribblies or other armoured opponents) or Heavy Bolters (if you want a small, specialised anti-infantry unit)
Heavy: 2x Longfangs w/2 Heavy Bolters + 3 Missile launchers & 1x Longfangs w/Missile launchers. (place both Priests in one of the first two squads)

There. A nice solid all-rounder that isn't overly focused on just one type of opponent. And if you still really fear armoured opponents, then swap those plasmas for meltas. If you don't want to sink pts into Storm Shield Wolf Guard, then ally in an Inquisitor and a big unit of Crusaders + Deathcults w/power mauls. Or try out Fenrisian Wolves as cheap assaulters, or look into allying in some Hammernators... (or even god-forbid, you bring in a big squad of Blood Claws led by a Wolf Priest who only gives them 'Prefered Enemy - whatever!')

Bring back your transports for a couple of your squads. Daemons suck at ranged anti-armour, so laugh as they waste their turn frying cheap transports, only to then sit there in rapid fire and counter-assault range!

Space Wolves are well equiped to deal with Daemons. Grey Knights don't even have to try!

Hell, with Grey Knights, you can for example counter those 'OP Screamers' with basic sword-wielding Termies who get a 4++, or better yet, multi-wound Pallies w/swords... or bring out ANYthing with Halberds! Or go for the extreme overkill of funny 'nades in a squad of power maul Deathcults... The list goes on.



Seriously, 40k Daemons are nowhere near the OP levels of 5th ed GK's, or 6th ed Flyer spam...

...or god forbid, 7th ed Fantasy Daemons!!! (you've never seen what "OMG broken!1!!1!!!11!" REALLY is until you've suffered 7th ed Fantasy Daemons...)


Why take a aegis though? other then to give the flamers a nice bunched up set of targets? skyshield gives something aegis doesnt, 4++ for just 25 pts, The massive downside is shyshield really does restrict your LOS and firing possibiltes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/27 05:13:48


40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
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