So my wife just got off the phone with her mum in the Philippines and it turns out my house has been burgled. Not much taken, mostly because we are in the UK at the moment so all our tech stuff (TV, PS3 etc etc) are with my mother-in-law, but I feel somewhat dirty. Even though I'm something like 6000 miles away!
A quick discussion with the wife and we have decided to buy a gun for home defence when we go out there again. Now being a wet British guy, I feel a little nervous about this but I guess if our house has been targeted once it could be targeted again.
So I'm turning to you American Dakkanauts to helpe out here, as I know diddly squat about guns. What's best for home defence? A few pointers, I'd like something that I can take to my local Gun Club at least 3 times a week (to get my aim in), I'll have a budget of around $500. I don't even know if that's enough tbh!
I most recently fired a .38 revolver. Simple to use and fun. Can't jam. There better not be more than six of 'em you have to shoot though, otherwise you'll have to laugh the last two to death.
Ok, after a quick bit of Google-fu, basically I can buy anything as long as I can prove its for home defence or target shooting...
Really, I'm looking for a reliable, accurate pistol. Any ideas?
Edit: Thanks for the quick responses guys, in the time it's taken me to find out about gun law in the Philippines you guys have come up with some good answers already!
So my wife just got off the phone with her mum in the Philippines and it turns out my house has been burgled. Not much taken, mostly because we are in the UK at the moment so all our tech stuff (TV, PS3 etc etc) are with my mother-in-law, but I feel somewhat dirty. Even though I'm something like 6000 miles away!
A quick discussion with the wife and we have decided to buy a gun for home defence when we go out there again. Now being a wet British guy, I feel a little nervous about this but I guess if our house has been targeted once it could be targeted again.
So I'm turning to you American Dakkanauts to helpe out here, as I know diddly squat about guns. What's best for home defence? A few pointers, I'd like something that I can take to my local Gun Club at least 3 times a week (to get my aim in), I'll have a budget of around $500. I don't even know if that's enough tbh!
Thanks in advance guys!
1. You need to thoroughly vet the rules of your location (Phillipines?). Assuming there are no issue there, you need to answer a few things.
1. Pricing $500-check. This slightly limiting but not unreasonably so. Again where you get it matters in regards to influencing price.
2. Are you looking at a specific category-long gun/shotgun or pistol? If pistol do you like something like an automatic (think evil German with evil Luger) or revolver (think evil cowboy with evil six gun)
3. Self defense only or other things as well (target shooting, hunting, general plinking)?
4. Just you or something both you and wife can easily use?
At $500 there are some moderately priced pistols, especially 9mms I'd steer you to in the US. You have a plethora of shotguns from your basic all purpose hunting shotgun to something obscenely tacticool, all wel; within $500. In the Phillipines you might be able to get a ahold of cheap AK types but I really really don't know.
Now this is scary to hear from me, but think before making a purchase. A weapon will not stop a burglary when you're not home, and if you have one and pull it you'd better be of a mind to use it.
My father-in-law and I both agree; for home & personal defence (usually 6 to 10 ft) look at a Taurus Judge series revolver.
Automatics are cool, but have jamming/stovepiping issues, while revolvers are more reliable.
They are chambered for .45 long colt and .410 shotgun shell. We recommend the latter.
Federal Arms makes a self-defence round that has a few buckshot topped with what looks like watch batteries. In a few of our field tests, these are devestating. Even if you just catch an arm on your assailant, dont expect him to make it very far.
Keep in mind; a dead man cant sue. Of course his family can; but it's much less damning.
For home defense, I'm a fan of Beretta's series of 9mm pistols. You really don't need much more than a pistol. I'm not much of a pistol shooter myself, but I have a friend who owns a Beretta 92 FS (about $650) and it's got to be one of my favorite pistols. If you want something cheaper, there is the Beretta Px4 Storm, full size, 9mm (about $575). I've not used it, but it looks very good and solid and undoubtedly carries Beretta's fantastic craftsmanship.
I cannot stress enough that before purchasing a firearm, you understand how they operate, how to use, clean and care for them and that you get all of the required licenses and permits.
For homedefense, the ability to load it quickly and aim it is whats important. That last thing you want to be doing is fumbling with your gun while a potentially armed person is invading your home.
Maybe find some people that have different handguns so you can try out what feels best in your hands. Something you are comfortable with. Both shooting, loading, and maintainance.
A revolver may not be best for your own personal style of shooting, it may be clumsy to load for you. Speed loaders are good but can require practice to be as fast as a magazine. The same for a magazine weapon, it may not jive with you.
1. You need to thoroughly vet the rules of your location (Phillipines?). Assuming there are no issue there, you need to answer a few things.
1. Pricing $500-check. This slightly limiting but not unreasonably so. Again where you get it matters in regards to influencing price.
2. Are you looking at a specific category-long gun/shotgun or pistol? If pistol do you like something like an automatic (think evil German with evil Luger) or revolver (think evil cowboy with evil six gun)
3. Self defense only or other things as well (target shooting, hunting, general plinking)?
4. Just you or something both you and wife can easily use?
At $500 there are some moderately priced pistols, especially 9mms I'd steer you to in the US. You have a plethora of shotguns from your basic all purpose hunting shotgun to something obscenely tacticool, all wel; within $500. In the Phillipines you might be able to get a ahold of cheap AK types but I really really don't know.
Now this is scary to hear from me, but think before making a purchase. A weapon will not stop a burglary when you're not home, and if you have one and pull it you'd better be of a mind to use it.
Ok, I can answer a few of these now, I'll be using the gun primarily for Home Defence, however I'll also be taking it to my local Gun Club in Makati at least 3 times a week whenever I'm out there (6-8 weeks a year). It would have to be a gun that my wife could use also, when we go out to the Philippines we are not always together. A shotgun I think is out, mostly because my wife would never be able to wield it properly.
The budget is flexible, it could be as much as $850-$1000. My thinking is you can't put a price on your family's safety. Another thing to bear in mind is that we almost always have kids staying with us in the form of nieces and nephews, so a digital gun safe of some form is an absolute must...
I know I'm british and young but I know a small amount of gun knowledge small mind you.
FN Five Seven would be a good bet, reliable a big clip size accurate low recoil and is often used for target shooting, so able to get in by the laws there.
But I think it's a bit more expensive, but can you put a price on safety and coolness?
You said exactly what I said, I just looked and I think it's about $1000.
It has enough stopping power to be a sure kill if hit but not so much it would go through your house.
I think it's accurate up to 50m or so.
Hoped a brit helped
InquisitorVaron wrote: I know I'm british and young but I know a small amount of gun knowledge small mind you.
FN Five Seven would be a good bet, reliable a big clip size accurate low recoil and is often used for target shooting, so able to get in by the laws there.
But I think it's a bit more expensive, but can you put a price on safety and coolness?
I sure can.
Ok second post attempt.
1. As noted, go to a store or club and try some out. Thats your best bet.
2. Autos: Beretta 92 and Sig 226 are excellent at about $600. Both are rugged and accurate. Both can be shot by your wife (my daughter and wife both love the Beretta).
Smith and Wesson also has the M&P which ways less for $500-$550. It has more capacity and is stainless steel which may be important in a high humidity environment. Of course there is Glock as well at about the same price point.
Also 45s. The Phillipines makes their own dirt cheap .45 ACPs via Rock River Arms (and another one who's name escapes me). The Rock River is very cheap but a good no nonsense boom stick. By local!
Revolver: I'd look at a .357 which can be loaded with .38 specials but will kick even less because they are heavier. Taurus, Ruger, and Smith and Wesson are good guns
InquisitorVaron wrote: I thought it depended on the round used for its armour penetration skills?
The FN is firing a small bullet at high velocity. One of the originally intents of the design (first for the newest generation of tacticool CQB weapons and not a pistol actually) was armor and cover penetration. PLus they are damned expensive - both the weapon and the ammo.
InquisitorVaron wrote: I thought it depended on the round used for its armour penetration skills?
It does, it only uses the one bullet design which it shares with the P90. You can't get a "dummed-down" version of that bullet. Essentially, it's a round the size of a pistol round in the shape of a rifle round, thinner and elongated so that it can slice through body armor more effectively. I've seen some newer polymer-tipped ammunition in various calibers that claim to offer similar perks anyway. I still don't see the point of a civilian owning armor-penetrating ammo though, to me it's just stupid.
Ninja'd
EDIT: another problem I have with that ammo is the potential for collateral damage, the bullet has a good chance of going "through-and-through" a soft target and maintaining a decent speed, if that happens or you happen to miss your target and the bullet hits a wall, it will probably go straight on through where it has the potential to injure innocent bystanders.
If the ammo costs a bit then scrap that idea, I imagine you'd like to fire this weapon for fun since otherwise it's redudant until that unlikely intent.
Glock 18 with Illuminated sights and small underbarrel light? Overkill again? Just thought it would be useful considering most home intrusions would be at night.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote: Ok, I can answer a few of these now, I'll be using the gun primarily for Home Defence, however I'll also be taking it to my local Gun Club in Makati at least 3 times a week whenever I'm out there (6-8 weeks a year).
From personal experience, I think that a shotgun fits this requirement the best. However you immediately followed up with:
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:It would have to be a gun that my wife could use also, when we go out to the Philippines we are not always together. A shotgun I think is out, mostly because my wife would never be able to wield it properly.
I think that you are either overestimating a standard shotgun, or are underestimating your wife. Shotguns, as noted this is from personal experience, are the ideal when it comes to home defense. Even my tiny sister can proficiently wield a shotgun. Her aim might not be the best, but who cares? Its a shotgun! Because shotguns by their nature have less punch to them, you limit the risk of hurting anyone else who might be in the house, and putting bullets through multiple walls. Pistols, and even more likely rifles, can very easily punch through walls, especially if they are rather thin, and can risk hitting a different individual in the house. A shotgun's spray will cause damage in the area it is pointed, which would most likely be the unlucky thug in front of you, and it is unlikely that they will cause anything beyond superficial damage to your house. I have experience using both in warding of bandits (God Bless Texas Castle Law), and I am very much in favor of shotguns being the ideal firearm for both home defense and sport.
Now that being said, Frazzled's suggestions are absolutely important, and you should definitely do your best to follow them. Be careful though, I am sure Fraz would also suggest that you invest in an army of killer wiener dogs as the ultimate method of defense. Don't listen to him though, he has just become their mindless pawn!
In all seriousness though, before you go out and purchase a firearm, I suggest you try to find some sort of opportunity to go and test fire several weapons, and take your wife if at all possible. This could be a great excuse to come on down to Texas for an "educational" vacation!
sarpedons-right-hand wrote: Ok, I can answer a few of these now, I'll be using the gun primarily for Home Defence, however I'll also be taking it to my local Gun Club in Makati at least 3 times a week whenever I'm out there (6-8 weeks a year).
From personal experience, I think that a shotgun fits this requirement the best. However you immediately followed up with:
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:It would have to be a gun that my wife could use also, when we go out to the Philippines we are not always together. A shotgun I think is out, mostly because my wife would never be able to wield it properly.
I think that you are either overestimating a standard shotgun, or are underestimating your wife. Shotguns, as noted this is from personal experience, are the ideal when it comes to home defense. Even my tiny sister can proficiently wield a shotgun. Her aim might not be the best, but who cares? Its a shotgun! Because shotguns by their nature have less punch to them, you limit the risk of hurting anyone else who might be in the house, and putting bullets through multiple walls. Pistols, and even more likely rifles, can very easily punch through walls, especially if they are rather thin, and can risk hitting a different individual in the house. A shotgun's spray will cause damage in the area it is pointed, which would most likely be the unlucky thug in front of you, and it is unlikely that they will cause anything beyond superficial damage to your house. I have experience using both in warding of bandits (God Bless Texas Castle Law), and I am very much in favor of shotguns being the ideal firearm for both home defense and sport.
Now that being said, Frazzled's suggestions are absolutely important, and you should definitely do your best to follow them. Be careful though, I am sure Fraz would also suggest that you invest in an army of killer wiener dogs as the ultimate method of defense. Don't listen to him though, he has just become their mindless pawn!
In all seriousness though, before you go out and purchase a firearm, I suggest you try to find some sort of opportunity to go and test fire several weapons, and take your wife if at all possible. This could be a great excuse to come on down to Texas for an "educational" vacation!
Agreed. Hand on testing is the best way to see what you like.
Now on the dog front OF COURSE a pack of ravaging wiener dogs are alway option A. Plus you'll never have to worry about badgers again.
You want a weapon for home defense that your wife can also wield safely and effectively, hmm? May i suggest pepperspray and/or a stungun/taser? That isnt a slam against your wife/women, as it also applies to you. If your house is being burglarized and you or your wife pull out a firearm... are you going to have the nerve to pull the trigger and end the life of another? If the answer is anything other than "Yes, absolutely" then the gun isnt for you, because if you dont pull that trigger then there is a very good chance that you will end up arming what might have otherwise been an unarmed attacker and making the situation more dangerous for yourself than it originally was. You really cannot rely on the presence of a weapon as being a deterrent, in most cases it will be but in some cases it wont.
sarpedons-right-hand wrote: What's best for home defence? A few pointers, I'd like something that I can take to my local Gun Club at least 3 times a week (to get my aim in), I'll have a budget of around $500. I don't even know if that's enough tbh!
I've been saving this thread for myself all day...mmm savor.
I'll start to answer your question by not answering your question at all.
What gun is the best for home defense?
The one you shoot well enough to not be a hazard to yourself, your family, and innocent bystanders. Which generally speaking means a gun you will shoot a lot and fits you well.
I have a budget of $500.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and you can get an awful lot of gun for that but let me give you a piece of unsolicited advice. Spend what it takes to get the gun you want. If you shoot on a regular basis, and by that I mean significantly less than 3x a week. The cost of ammunition alone will outstrip the price of the firearm in no time. It doesn't even matter how much you shoot or how expensive the gun is. Over it's lifetime it will cost you more in ammunition and training/range fees than the gun ever will. With the obvious exception of ridiculous guns like say Conneticut Shotguns hummingbird, or a Holland and Holland (although over its life its conceivable it might hold true.)
Don't limit yourself.
There are pages and pages and pages of advise on what gun is best for blah blah blah and a lot of really smart people giving good opinions; none of them are you. When push comes shove it's you with your boogersnatcher on the goswitch if there's a bad guy in your house. I've listened to and participated in countless discussions,arguments, and fistfights about the effectiveness of birdshot in home defense, 9mm vs 45, long vs short barrels, 308 vs 260, who genitals are larger, semi auto vs pump, etc. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what DirtyHarry762 thinks if you are comfortable with a drilling rifle for home defense by all means give him the little bullet, the big one, and the shot.
If I were you I'd go out and buy a 22 pistol. Probably the Ruger 22/45. Although virtually any accurate magazine fed 22 will do. Shoot it as often as you can afford to. When you have achieved competency with it start looking for a 9mm. 22s are great for a lot of things but you can develop bad habits in rimfires that will not overly affect your skills but will be magnified to devastating effect once you move to centerfire. Keep shooting the 22, but build your skills on that 9 until you are at least equally competant. In a pinch either will work in Home defense, any gun is better than none at all.
If that doesn't fit your fancy, but you have a good idea what style,brand, caliber, or size you want I can probably steer you to the right place...gunz is kinda my thing.
First piece of advice- Don't accept advice from anyone calling a magazine a "clip".
Second piece- the best firearm to defend yourself with is one that you can hit the target with.
Take it from me, metal violently going inside you hurts. Caliber matters little in most circumstances.
My recommendations for you to research for combination home defense + shooting range fun are:
Springfield rifles (Socom II if you can find a nice civilian version), and this will be fun for the Mrs to shoot as well
1911 3.5 in variants
Baby Eagle .40
Any shotgun.
W PPK or PPK/S
B 92F
Edited so many times because I take this seriously.
Thanks for all the great advice guys, Im gonna take it all in and have a chat with the missus and work towards finding a suitable means of protecting ourselves and our family.
As for the question of 'Could you pull the trigger when faced with a real person?'....The answer is unequivocal, its yes. If that person is in my house, without my permission and trying to harm/steal from my family I will put him down..If that means buying a Taser to stun the bastard, a big dog to chew on his baps for a while and a .38 to finish the job then so be it!
If you meet a little resistance with the missus, I'd suggest warming her up to a standard Schnauzer. They are highly trainable and their bark is intimidating and deep (even the females are unique in that their voices are as low as the males). The females are great with kids and the "dog" route may be the key to unlocking your home-defense lifestyle with the missus.
If it's purely for home defense, I'll echo the shotgun recommendations.
Whatever you end up getting, take a class. Then take another. Then take as many as you can afford. I'll take $1000 worth of training behind a $50 gun over $50 worth of training behind a $1000 gun any day.
You might want to look in to Rock Island Armory, they're a manufacturer local to the Philippines the specializes in the 1911 using Colt Original Machines and guides. I got one in the U.S. for approx $400 + Shipping/Transfer fee and that pistol has never steered me wrong before. Couple hundred rounds of quality ammo, and a couple hundred rounds of garbage russian plinking ammo and never had a misfire.
My big piece of advice is to go to a gun store and "try" a couple guns on, have the missus get a feel for the grips as well. You want a pistol that is most comfortable in your hand, whatever that might be.
12 gauge double barreled shotgun, let whatever little is left of the intruder just try to sue you. On a serious note though, I'm with the revolver crowd for what i consider is a good home defense weapon (followed by the 12 gauge as a close second)
The best firearm is the one you are the most comfortable with. End of story.
A well-practiced, comfortable firearms wielder will be far more deadly to his target with only a .22 than some tacticool poseur with a red dot sight on an assault rifle.
I consider the 1911 to be the best handgun ever made; and I think most firearms instructors will recommend it as a good "learner" handgun because its kick is pretty soft, despite the .45 ACP cartridge's good stopping power.
EDIT: I must've missed his post, but you should listen to AustonT.
To add to what others have already said, you might also want to check self-defense laws over there and see what constitutes justified self-defense and what constitutes murder.
Also about semi-automatics and reliability... I have a Ruger SR9 and I have had no feeding problems while putting several hundred rounds through it. Modern semi-autos are quite reliable provided the manufacturer is good and the gun itself is well cleaned and lubed.
A local manufacturer you might want to look into is Armscor. I'm hearing some good reviews about their guns. They have some ranges as well. Their site isn't telling me how much their products are though... You'd have to call them up and ask.
Of course, don't turn your nose up at consignment guns either. My SR9 was $300 and practically brand new. The previous owner couldn't have put more than 100 rounds through it before he dumped it at my local gunshop.
I second what AustonT said about a .22 pistol, especially if you and/or your wife find yourselves flinching when firing something like a 9mm or .45 ACP. That can cause accuracy issues. Now, you may not want to buy two pistols, so it may be a case where you need to rent a .22 (if that's even possible) and get used to a pistol's blast first.
Oh, and I don't recall if it was mentioned in the thread, but you also might want to check to see if hollow point bullets are legal over there. They have the best stopping power due to their expansive nature. They're also much less likely to over-penetrate an intruder and hit someone in the next room or house. And if they do over-penetrate, they will have expended so much energy in the target that you really don't have to worry about innocent bystanders being significantly hurt from it. You'd practice with full metal jacket bullets of course to keep expenses down.
You didn't mention whether you have kids or not, but if you do (or you have nosy friends and relatives), then you might also want to invest in a nightstand gun safe like this.
Slightly OT but seeing as this is a gun thread, a question for American posters: I've been reading about depression era bank robbers. Can you still get Browning automatic rifles in the USA or are they banned under assault weapons law/machine gun act? Or whatever it's called?
If I ever move to the USA, that's my weapon of home defence choice!
The best firearm is the one you are the most comfortable with. End of story.
A well-practiced, comfortable firearms wielder will be far more deadly to his target with only a .22 than some tacticool poseur with a red dot sight on an assault rifle.
I consider the 1911 to be the best handgun ever made; and I think most firearms instructors will recommend it as a good "learner" handgun because its kick is pretty soft, despite the .45 ACP cartridge's good stopping power.
EDIT: I must've missed his post, but you should listen to AustonT.
Actually, most instructors in my area suggest that 1911s are not the best "learner" pistols for defense, as some of the safety features are somewhat unwieldy for someone with little to no experience.
HOWEVER, I will say that they are my personal favorite and if the OP is "trying on" a 1911 and it fits the best for both him and the missus, then go for it and practice practice practice.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: You might want to look in to Rock Island Armory, they're a manufacturer local to the Philippines the specializes in the 1911 using Colt Original Machines and guides. I got one in the U.S. for approx $400 + Shipping/Transfer fee and that pistol has never steered me wrong before. Couple hundred rounds of quality ammo, and a couple hundred rounds of garbage russian plinking ammo and never had a misfire.
My big piece of advice is to go to a gun store and "try" a couple guns on, have the missus get a feel for the grips as well. You want a pistol that is most comfortable in your hand, whatever that might be.
Yep. Its weird to say, but buy local, buy a Rock Island...
Gun stores, gun clubs, and gun shows (if there is such a thing there).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Slightly OT but seeing as this is a gun thread, a question for American posters: I've been reading about depression era bank robbers. Can you still get Browning automatic rifles in the USA or are they banned under assault weapons law/machine gun act? Or whatever it's called?
If I ever move to the USA, that's my weapon of home defence choice!
A select fire BAR (or 'that superheavy " as Dad would say) is illegal without a special license for automatic weaponry. There may be semi-auto versions available. They are really really heavy - like 30lb heavy.
Jumping back in for more because goddess knows I'll be making my living from this stuff so I like to gab about it. Here in the states I'm a big proponent of the "three gun" system wherein everyone should have a rifle, shotgun and a handgun. However as I read your situation with a limited budget and a focus on self defense in the home and something the wife can use easily I might be leaning in towards a revolver in .38 Sp/.357 Mag
Don't quote me on this but from what I understand any revolver in .375 can also reliably and accurately put the smaller .38 Sp rounds down the pipe. That makes for cheap practice ammo, and something with a little more kick to it for putting messy holes in goblins. Also gives the wife something a little softer for shooting and handling if she decides she doesn't like the kick on a .357 so versatility is something to consider there for both you and her.
You can also look at small gauge shotguns, they still make buckshot for a 20 gauge, and it won't smack a smaller built person around like a 12 gauge.
When it comes down to it though, like I said, go to your local range and talk to the guys around you with pistols, ask about ammo availability and of course see if you can get some trigger time (ask nicely, that's how I got to fire my first .50 cal rifle ) find the gun that feels best, and fits your local environment best (a gun's all well and good, but it's a paper weight if you have to gak every bullet in from over seas)
KalashnikovMarine wrote: You might want to look in to Rock Island Armory, they're a manufacturer local to the Philippines the specializes in the 1911 using Colt Original Machines and guides. I got one in the U.S. for approx $400 + Shipping/Transfer fee and that pistol has never steered me wrong before. Couple hundred rounds of quality ammo, and a couple hundred rounds of garbage russian plinking ammo and never had a misfire.
My big piece of advice is to go to a gun store and "try" a couple guns on, have the missus get a feel for the grips as well. You want a pistol that is most comfortable in your hand, whatever that might be.
Yep. Its weird to say, but buy local, buy a Rock Island...
Gun stores, gun clubs, and gun shows (if there is such a thing there).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Slightly OT but seeing as this is a gun thread, a question for American posters: I've been reading about depression era bank robbers. Can you still get Browning automatic rifles in the USA or are they banned under assault weapons law/machine gun act? Or whatever it's called?
If I ever move to the USA, that's my weapon of home defence choice!
A select fire BAR (or 'that superheavy " as Dad would say) is illegal without a special license for automatic weaponry. There may be semi-auto versions available. They are really really heavy - like 30lb heavy.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: You might want to look in to Rock Island Armory, they're a manufacturer local to the Philippines the specializes in the 1911 using Colt Original Machines and guides. I got one in the U.S. for approx $400 + Shipping/Transfer fee and that pistol has never steered me wrong before. Couple hundred rounds of quality ammo, and a couple hundred rounds of garbage russian plinking ammo and never had a misfire.
My big piece of advice is to go to a gun store and "try" a couple guns on, have the missus get a feel for the grips as well. You want a pistol that is most comfortable in your hand, whatever that might be.
Yep. Its weird to say, but buy local, buy a Rock Island...
Gun stores, gun clubs, and gun shows (if there is such a thing there).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Slightly OT but seeing as this is a gun thread, a question for American posters: I've been reading about depression era bank robbers. Can you still get Browning automatic rifles in the USA or are they banned under assault weapons law/machine gun act? Or whatever it's called?
QTF but surely you mean Britannias invetable world conquest
If I ever move to the USA, that's my weapon of home defence choice!
A select fire BAR (or 'that superheavy " as Dad would say) is illegal without a special license for automatic weaponry. There may be semi-auto versions available. They are really really heavy - like 30lb heavy.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Jumping back in for more because goddess knows I'll be making my living from this stuff so I like to gab about it. Here in the states I'm a big proponent of the "three gun" system wherein everyone should have a rifle, shotgun and a handgun. However as I read your situation with a limited budget and a focus on self defense in the home and something the wife can use easily I might be leaning in towards a revolver in .38 Sp/.357 Mag
Don't quote me on this but from what I understand any revolver in .375 can also reliably and accurately put the smaller .38 Sp rounds down the pipe. That makes for cheap practice ammo, and something with a little more kick to it for putting messy holes in goblins. Also gives the wife something a little softer for shooting and handling if she decides she doesn't like the kick on a .357 so versatility is something to consider there for both you and her.
You can also look at small gauge shotguns, they still make buckshot for a 20 gauge, and it won't smack a smaller built person around like a 12 gauge.
When it comes down to it though, like I said, go to your local range and talk to the guys around you with pistols, ask about ammo availability and of course see if you can get some trigger time (ask nicely, that's how I got to fire my first .50 cal rifle ) find the gun that feels best, and fits your local environment best (a gun's all well and good, but it's a paper weight if you have to gak every bullet in from over seas)
.357s can definitely shoot 38 specials and shoot them well. The recoil is extremely light.
The only thing with revovlers is you need to make sure you and the wife can shoot it doubla action - aka fire it by just squeezing the trigger and not manually pulling the hammer back.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: An impressive selection of guns. Still, no matter what Americans arms themselves with, they'll be no match for the UN invasion force. Evil Laugh
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: An impressive selection of guns. Still, no matter what Americans arms themselves with, they'll be no match for the UN invasion force. Evil Laugh
We don't need to win on the ground.
We can just defund them!
Better yet, we can start enforcing all those parking tickets...solve our national debt AND defund UN at the same time??? Yes please.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Jumping back in for more because goddess knows I'll be making my living from this stuff so I like to gab about it. Here in the states I'm a big proponent of the "three gun" system wherein everyone should have a rifle, shotgun and a handgun. However as I read your situation with a limited budget and a focus on self defense in the home and something the wife can use easily I might be leaning in towards a revolver in .38 Sp/.357 Mag
Don't quote me on this but from what I understand any revolver in .375 can also reliably and accurately put the smaller .38 Sp rounds down the pipe. That makes for cheap practice ammo, and something with a little more kick to it for putting messy holes in goblins. Also gives the wife something a little softer for shooting and handling if she decides she doesn't like the kick on a .357 so versatility is something to consider there for both you and her.
You can also look at small gauge shotguns, they still make buckshot for a 20 gauge, and it won't smack a smaller built person around like a 12 gauge.
When it comes down to it though, like I said, go to your local range and talk to the guys around you with pistols, ask about ammo availability and of course see if you can get some trigger time (ask nicely, that's how I got to fire my first .50 cal rifle ) find the gun that feels best, and fits your local environment best (a gun's all well and good, but it's a paper weight if you have to gak every bullet in from over seas)
.357s can definitely shoot 38 specials and shoot them well. The recoil is extremely light.
That's what I thought, but if I haven't fired it that way myself (and I haven't, I only have a .38 Sp and when I've played with .357s it was with .357s) it's unproven till stated otherwise by someone who actually knows.
I have a cylinder for one of my Blackhawks to put 9mm down it.
Depending on the boolits you use the difference between a 357 barrel and 9mm is 1-2 thousandths.
I've never been so inclined, but it came wit the gun.
If you are going to purchase a gun for home defense you have to take a few things into consideration. One of the biggest mistakes I see is a person walks in, buys a pistol and some ammo, takes it to the range a couple times, then sticks it in a drawer or wherever and it collects dust. Then if it ever comes time to use it they forget everything because they aren't comfortable with their weapon and their nerves are going nuts.
Now this is expected in all situations for folks who have never been in a combat situation, were all gonna be scared and a bit freaked out.
What is important is that you have a weapon that you are comfortable with to the point the motions become muscle memory and your brain does what's required with no actual thought to it, or a weapon that has as little steps as possible from draw to fire.
Pistols fall into the first category. You MUST practice to the point your body goes from draw, safety off, rough sight in, trigger pull, fire in a manner where you do not have to think about doinng each of these steps. Reason: when you think about the steps it generally takes longer, you forget the safety, and/or your looking for things on the gun like the safety instead of keeping your barrel on target. Now in the case of most home defense situations your target is in close quarters, which gives forgiveness on the aiming, but half am second can mean target is 10 feet away or now has hands on your weapon.
Shotguns, or pistols such as the Taurus Judge that shot shot shells, fall into the second category. It still follows the same procedure, but the time between each is much less, and they are MUCH more forgiving if you mess up. To start: if your aim is off 6 inches with a pistol you run the risk of putting a bullet in a nonlethal area that would not disable your target. 6 inches with a tactical shotgun at 10 feet is still going to disable your target. Second, the weapon itself offers less to think about. Point, safety off, shoot, rack, shoot, rack, shoot until the threat is neutralized, no worries about stovepipes, and the odds of a pump shotgun jamming are far less tan that of a semi auto pistol. Granted revolvers don't have the jamming issues, but they again require decent aim to ensure effect on target.
Now my opinion is obvious for the best all around home defense weapon, and this doesn't take into account if you want to carry concealed but keep in mind theres a lot going on in these situations and above all you must be comfortable with your weapon.
Oh and on the wife subject, my wife is 5'7" and about 145 pounds and she handles the 12 guage with no issues.
Just my 2 cents :-)
Edit double post, apologies for misspelled words and grammar issues, typing on tab with big thumbs lol
If you are going to purchase a gun for home defense you have to take a few things into consideration. One of the biggest mistakes I see is a person walks in, buys a pistol and some ammo, takes it to the range a couple times, then sticks it in a drawer or wherever and it collects dust. Then if it ever comes time to use it they forget everything because they aren't comfortable with their weapon and their nerves are going nuts.
Now this is expected in all situations for folks who have never been in a combat situation, were all gonna be scared and a bit freaked out.
What is important is that you have a weapon that you are comfortable with to the point the motions become muscle memory and your brain does what's required with no actual thought to it, or a weapon that has as little steps as possible from draw to fire.
Pistols fall into the first category. You MUST practice to the point your body goes from draw, safety off, rough sight in, trigger pull, fire in a manner where you do not have to think about doinng each of these steps. Reason: when you think about the steps it generally takes longer, you forget the safety, and/or your looking for things on the gun like the safety instead of keeping your barrel on target. Now in the case of most home defense situations your target is in close quarters, which gives forgiveness on the aiming, but half am second can mean target is 10 feet away or now has hands on your weapon.
Shotguns, or pistols such as the Taurus Judge that shot shot shells, fall into the second category. It still follows the same procedure, but the time between each is much less, and they are MUCH more forgiving if you mess up. To start: if your aim is off 6 inches with a pistol you run the risk of putting a bullet in a nonlethal area that would not disable your target. 6 inches with a tactical shotgun at 10 feet is still going to disable your target. Second, the weapon itself offers less to think about. Point, safety off, shoot, rack, shoot, rack, shoot until the threat is neutralized, no worries about stovepipes, and the odds of a pump shotgun jamming are far less tan that of a semi auto pistol. Granted revolvers don't have the jamming issues, but they again require decent aim to ensure effect on target.
Now my opinion is obvious for the best all around home defense weapon, and this doesn't take into account if you want to carry concealed but keep in mind theres a lot going on in these situations and above all you must be comfortable with your weapon.
Oh and on the wife subject, my wife is 5'7" and about 145 pounds and she handles the 12 guage with no issues.
Just my 2 cents :-)
Edit double post, apologies for misspelled words and grammar issues, typing on tab with big thumbs lol
You make some interesting points, especially the part about instinct, reaction and adrenaline flowing.
You are right in saying that most people thrust into these situation probably won't have been in a combat/violent situation before, and their gun training will be rusty.
On reflection of drawing on my own experience of violent/combat situations, my advice would be to ignore guns and get a high quality combat knife.
I read somewhere that most home invasions involve grappling, surprise attack by the owner etc etc
Ok knives are not perfect for every situation, but given what i said about nerves, panic, adrenaline etc etc people's survival instincts mean that IMO they would probably do more damage with a knife as there is less to think about. This view will probably be shot down in flames
If you are going to purchase a gun for home defense you have to take a few things into consideration. One of the biggest mistakes I see is a person walks in, buys a pistol and some ammo, takes it to the range a couple times, then sticks it in a drawer or wherever and it collects dust. Then if it ever comes time to use it they forget everything because they aren't comfortable with their weapon and their nerves are going nuts.
Now this is expected in all situations for folks who have never been in a combat situation, were all gonna be scared and a bit freaked out.
What is important is that you have a weapon that you are comfortable with to the point the motions become muscle memory and your brain does what's required with no actual thought to it, or a weapon that has as little steps as possible from draw to fire.
Pistols fall into the first category. You MUST practice to the point your body goes from draw, safety off, rough sight in, trigger pull, fire in a manner where you do not have to think about doinng each of these steps. Reason: when you think about the steps it generally takes longer, you forget the safety, and/or your looking for things on the gun like the safety instead of keeping your barrel on target. Now in the case of most home defense situations your target is in close quarters, which gives forgiveness on the aiming, but half am second can mean target is 10 feet away or now has hands on your weapon.
Shotguns, or pistols such as the Taurus Judge that shot shot shells, fall into the second category. It still follows the same procedure, but the time between each is much less, and they are MUCH more forgiving if you mess up. To start: if your aim is off 6 inches with a pistol you run the risk of putting a bullet in a nonlethal area that would not disable your target. 6 inches with a tactical shotgun at 10 feet is still going to disable your target. Second, the weapon itself offers less to think about. Point, safety off, shoot, rack, shoot, rack, shoot until the threat is neutralized, no worries about stovepipes, and the odds of a pump shotgun jamming are far less tan that of a semi auto pistol. Granted revolvers don't have the jamming issues, but they again require decent aim to ensure effect on target.
Now my opinion is obvious for the best all around home defense weapon, and this doesn't take into account if you want to carry concealed but keep in mind theres a lot going on in these situations and above all you must be comfortable with your weapon.
Oh and on the wife subject, my wife is 5'7" and about 145 pounds and she handles the 12 guage with no issues.
Just my 2 cents :-)
Edit double post, apologies for misspelled words and grammar issues, typing on tab with big thumbs lol
You make some interesting points, especially the part about instinct, reaction and adrenaline flowing.
You are right in saying that most people thrust into these situation probably won't have been in a combat/violent situation before, and their gun training will be rusty.
On reflection of drawing on my own experience of violent/combat situations, my advice would be to ignore guns and get a high quality combat knife.
I read somewhere that most home invasions involve grappling, surprise attack by the owner etc etc
Ok knives are not perfect for every situation, but given what i said about nerves, panic, adrenaline etc etc people's survival instincts mean that IMO they would probably do more damage with a knife as there is less to think about. This view will probably be shot down in flames
Yes it will
Although they do make bayonets for shotguns, oddly enough...
Grey Templar wrote: Indeed, the home defense merits of a Flamethrower are exactly ziltch
Not exactly, if I was into the whole home invasion/robbery thing and someone busted out a flame thrower while I was in their house I would deffinately run away!
Grey Templar wrote: A 9mm will run you between one and two hundred, and then is the issue of whatever licenses you would need.
Its an easy to use gun, the ammo is cheap, and you can buy it just about anywhere, but it can lack stopping power. Meaning placement is everything.
a .45 will give you more assurence of stopping what you hit but will be more expensive.
I hear good things about .38 revolvers too, plus they look badass.
Of course it entirely depends on whats avaliable in your area as that will effect price.
For your budget, a 9mm would probably be whats in your price range.
What? Theres a lot wrong with what Im reading here. Finding any pistol under $200 is pretty laughable. Try $400+
Also there really is no such thing as "stopping power" when your talking pistols, unless your shooting a .500 S&W youre not going to stop what your shooting, unless you hit something vital, in which case, a .22lr would be superior in that situation.
My advice, is first, figure your price range out, thats key and if its really high, then the sky is the limit. After that, Id say ease of use. You dont want a hand cannon that youre scared to shoot at the range, let alone if you needed to use it to protect yourself and family. Id suggest a smaller caliber with higher round count. Im not saying youre going to need 16 rounds of 9mm in the magazine, but in all honesty, Id rather not need 13 of those, then run dry after 6. A 9mm or even .380 would be good for this, as the recoil is pretty minimal on both, and the ammo is more affordable, when compared to other centerfire rounds. You can buy a 50 round box of 9mm for around $10-$20 depending on quality and name. Id say for a first gun youll want something you can afford to shoot often to keep yourself in practice with it. You dont want to be in that situation and realize you left ethe safety on, or hit the mag release. Yes, that actually happens often, and it gets people killed.
Something else your going to need to think about that most people NEVER do. Is actually shooting the weapon in your home. You do that with anything bigger then a .22lr, and your going to suffer problems, and it gets worse the larger/louder the gun gets. Youll get serious ringing in your ears, your eyes will water and nose run, and if it gets bad enough, your equilibrium will go to gak and you can be stumbling around like a drunk. Also everyonce in awhile youre going to want to practice a dry run, meaning know the likely spots of where a criminal would be during a break in, and teach yourself how to clear your home and so on.
ITs a big responsibility when going this route, and has many sides youll need to understand, and educate yourself on.
A high point can be had for 150-200. I wouldn't trust my life to one. But I would trust my life to a Kel Tec at or around 250 so the bottom end has some merit. Used you can actually get a lot under $400 KC. But that's in the States.
Guns are lovely. I'll admit I don't really know what to contribute, but people are posting handguns, so I'll post my favorites.
Colt Detective. I think a .38 would be a nice thing to use for home protection, if you simply must have a heavy caliber. Usually pretty cheap, especially for a beat-up one (which are the best ones, heehee)
Walther PPK. You might have a hard time buying a blued one, because the new production models are all stainless (IMO, a bastardization of the ppk). I think used ones are relatively cheap. Ammo is a little obscure.
Dunno why people are so gung-ho about using massive calibers for protection, and home protection more specifically. Anyone who isn't an idiot will stop coming towards you at the mere sound of a gunshot\, if not the sight of one. You don't need to rip a baseball sized hole in someone's chest to make them calm down. Honestly, a semi-automatic .22 would be more than enough to protect yourself in your house, and wouldn't whizz bullets through your walls. Something that you can just fire off five or six times in quick succession, with a light trigger pull.
AustonT wrote: A high point can be had for 150-200. I wouldn't trust my life to one. But I would trust my life to a Kel Tec at or around 250 so the bottom end has some merit. Used you can actually get a lot under $400 KC. But that's in the States.
There have been some interesting endurance tests on Hi Points. They're ugly, heavy, cheap, surprisingly accurate, and you either get one that's going to FTF/E/RTB every thirty rounds, or else is going to run like a top until the end of time.
Dunno why people are so gung-ho about using massive calibers for protection, and home protection more specifically. Anyone who isn't an idiot will stop coming towards you at the mere sound of a gunshot\, if not the sight of one. You don't need to rip a baseball sized hole in someone's chest to make them calm down. Honestly, a semi-automatic .22 would be more than enough to protect yourself in your house, and wouldn't whizz bullets through your walls. Something that you can just fire off five or six times in quick succession, with a light trigger pull.
Because if you're going to shoot at someone you're looking to KILL them not scare them for one, in your home or not. Past that 9mm, .357, .40S&W or my own preferred .45 ACP comes down to personal preference. I like putting big holes on things on the wrong end of my sights, a .45 does a lot of damage on target, the recoil isn't much to me and the 1911 platform just feels good in my hands. You also shouldn't be looking to fire several times in quick succession, especially in the home environment, you should have a solid shot on your target and end the engagement as quickly as possible, every round fired is a round that could over penetrate and hit something you don't want to hit, no matter what caliber of ammunition you're firing.
For those interested in terminal ballistics and over penetration or just guns in general check out these threads from DocGKR
So my wife just got off the phone with her mum in the Philippines and it turns out my house has been burgled. Not much taken, mostly because we are in the UK at the moment so all our tech stuff (TV, PS3 etc etc) are with my mother-in-law, but I feel somewhat dirty. Even though I'm something like 6000 miles away!
A quick discussion with the wife and we have decided to buy a gun for home defence when we go out there again. Now being a wet British guy, I feel a little nervous about this but I guess if our house has been targeted once it could be targeted again.
So I'm turning to you American Dakkanauts to helpe out here, as I know diddly squat about guns. What's best for home defence? A few pointers, I'd like something that I can take to my local Gun Club at least 3 times a week (to get my aim in), I'll have a budget of around $500. I don't even know if that's enough tbh!
Thanks in advance guys!
You got broken into in England, or your mother in law in the Islands?
Can you get an alarm system, or security service contract?
The best weapon for home defense?
A 12 guage pump action shotgun, and maybe a .40 cal Glock, or a .45. even a six gun could do the trick, as long as your head is in the game.
Issues for you- You really need a gun? Shooting targets is one thing, but- (Please don't take it the wrong way) You being a cherry to having a gun at all- you are more likely to shoot grandma or the kids who is coming in the back door after sneaking out to a all night kegger, or suprising you with a pie then to pop an actual thief.
Get a dog. A big mastif, or German Sheperd if you have kids.If you can get two, get the little yapper dog that makes the noise and the bigger dog for support.
Lighting around the house. clear away the bushes/ trees around the yard.
Set up the automatic motion lights.
Reinforced doors, and windows with better frames and locks.
Issue with the 9mm- the rounds bounce around and sometimes end up chasing you around after impact with door harware. They go in, but if some assclown is hyped up on crank or something, the rounds only end up... making them mad. They then go from break ins to homicides.
Stopping power with a 40 cal, or a 45. anything bigger is a waste, and too much for mom to handle.
Automatics might seem coolio in the movies, but when the heat comes down, little mommy ends up burning through a mag, because she wasn't trained in the weapon. then she's got a hold of a 500 buck paper weight. Her best bet is to go to the range and get her properly trained in ONE, that is hers. You can even put on the pretty pink flower colored grips on if you so choose, just as long as she is comfortable with the weapon.
In my work, I go to the weapon as a final solution. I pull it- someones dying, simple as that. And it goes witrhout saying- yes, I have access to some of the most advanced things in the world, but the basic premis is the same.
The "Gun" is just a tool, like a hammer or a screwdriver. I have knives, stun guns, pepperspray, slingshots, baseball bats, chains, and even a lead pipe if I so choose.
Options, leathal and non leathal. Get them down, tie them up like a stuffed duck, and kick the @!@#$ out of them for fun if you need to. Point being, lethal is the final choice.
People who come up with the "I just got broken into, I need a gun." are some of the last types I advise in purchase.
Like I said, its all fun and games until your in the position, then its downright lethal.
I caught a guy breaking into my house once. I had a good chance of wasting him, but after you really see it is just some dumbass kid who was too stupid to get a job, or something. Not really even a threat, you kinda lose the taste of killing someone. So then you just pound the crap out of them, break an arm or leg and send them to johnny law.
"You broke in, you fell down the stairs a couple of times, sorry for you- by the way- who is going to pay for this door?".
I'll only waste you if your a threat. Not just because you are busting up stuff.
Stuff can be replaced, living with killing someone isn't something for the fient of heart, or squeamish.
Dunno why people are so gung-ho about using massive calibers for protection, and home protection more specifically. Anyone who isn't an idiot will stop coming towards you at the mere sound of a gunshot\, if not the sight of one. You don't need to rip a baseball sized hole in someone's chest to make them calm down. Honestly, a semi-automatic .22 would be more than enough to protect yourself in your house, and wouldn't whizz bullets through your walls. Something that you can just fire off five or six times in quick succession, with a light trigger pull.
Dunno why people are so gung-ho about using massive calibers for protection, and home protection more specifically. Anyone who isn't an idiot will stop coming towards you at the mere sound of a gunshot\, if not the sight of one. You don't need to rip a baseball sized hole in someone's chest to make them calm down. Honestly, a semi-automatic .22 would be more than enough to protect yourself in your house, and wouldn't whizz bullets through your walls. Something that you can just fire off five or six times in quick succession, with a light trigger pull.
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree.
Ill disagree with both on some points. My preferred defense weapon IS a .22lr pistol. It can and will easily shoot rounds through walls, so you dont want to just blindly shoot it. And yes friends, the .22lr is a very deadly round. Go look at some FBI statistics if your one of those "the .45acp is the only bullet for me!" types. When trained even decently, you can put more rounds on target, faster, then higher caliber pistol rounds. I wont argue that a .45acp does more damage, but 4 or 5 rounds of .22 in the chest, will puncture lungs and hearts and spinal cords with the same end result as 2 or 3 well placed .45.
And you wont be dealing with the affects of shooting such a loud round as I was talking about previously
Seaward wrote: Incidentally, this all illustrates the problem with the quest for "the perfect gun for X." If such an animal existed, everybody would agree on it.
The thing is, the "perfect" gun is only perfect for Y, where Y equals the individual in question... For instance, KC just posted that for him, his preferred home defense weapon is a .22, whereas mine is a .45acp.
This is why, at the end of the day, all we can provide is advice for what works for each of us individually, and the OP can use this to go into a gun store somewhat more informed. But at the end of the day, he still needs to go in and try on various weapons (and preferably, the wife should go with and they can decide on the best, or a compromise of good firearms).
That's odd my preferred home defense weapon is whatever is close at hand when something happens. I'm going to have to find more creative solutions as I baby proof the house.
Seaward wrote:Incidentally, this all illustrates the problem with the quest for "the perfect gun for X." If such an animal existed, everybody would agree on it.
Seems like most experienced people agree that this mythical animal is called "the firearm you're comfortable and practiced with"
Honestly I would prefer a shotgun for home defense. With spreadshot you really don't have to aim it too precisely, and in a home setting where it's usually close quarters, whoever is on the receiving end is usually screwed. You also will cause some collateral, but if the situation is dire enough to warrant firing a gun then it's probably acceptable.
However, I agree with the sentiment that you want something you're comfortable with. A rifle can be superior to a pistol or short barrel shotgun in every way, but that doesn't matter when it feels bulky and awkward in your hands.
Necroshea wrote: Honestly I would prefer a shotgun for home defense. With spreadshot you really don't have to aim it too precisely, and in a home setting where it's usually close quarters, whoever is on the receiving end is usually screwed. You also will cause some collateral, but if the situation is dire enough to warrant firing a gun then it's probably acceptable.
However, I agree with the sentiment that you want something you're comfortable with. A rifle can be superior to a pistol or short barrel shotgun in every way, but that doesn't matter when it feels bulky and awkward in your hands.
Spreadshot? And also don't have to aim too precisely. Is "spreadshot" guided?
Necroshea wrote: Honestly I would prefer a shotgun for home defense. With spreadshot you really don't have to aim it too precisely, and in a home setting where it's usually close quarters, whoever is on the receiving end is usually screwed. You also will cause some collateral, but if the situation is dire enough to warrant firing a gun then it's probably acceptable.
However, I agree with the sentiment that you want something you're comfortable with. A rifle can be superior to a pistol or short barrel shotgun in every way, but that doesn't matter when it feels bulky and awkward in your hands.
Spreadshot? And also don't have to aim too precisely. Is "spreadshot" guided?
Do you actually not understand how it's easier to hit something with spreadshot over buck or standard rifle/pistol ammo or are you just trying to start a really strange argument.
I think the rather moot point he was trying to make was that you can't fire over your shoulder and hit something. You still have to vaguely on target...
InquisitorVaron wrote: I think the rather moot point he was trying to make was that you can't fire over your shoulder and hit something. You still have to vaguely on target...
I actually REALLY discourage people using 12gauges as a home defense weapon. The concussion and decibel level of the shot going off, will disorient you AND feth up your equilibrium. Not could happen, WILL happen. And in a stressed situation such as waking up in the dead of night to some guy breaking in, your not going to wrestle with ear cans or shove plugs into your ears, your going to grab the gun and go. And again, firing a 12 gauge in a hallway or in your house can easily hurt you more then the criminal. If you miss him, you could be in a real bad situation
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AustonT wrote: I'm trying to figure out wtf you are talking about. Let's start at what spreadshot is, and how much mana you need to cast it.
Im sorry but that cracked me up. Your Troll skill has leveled up me thinks
Necroshea wrote:Honestly I would prefer a shotgun for home defense. With spreadshot you really don't have to aim it too precisely.
This is an incorrect and rather dangerous belief.
Although television would have you belief that shotguns are the equivalent of the spreadshot from Contra,
Spoiler:
The reality is that shot, even with a cylinder bore (zero choke), does not expand the way Hollywood has led you to believe. here's a handy chart:
Spoiler:
And the "don't really have to aim it too precisely" is an incredibly dangerous and stupid piece of advice, which I hope is disregarded by everyone, forever. You never pull the trigger unless you know exactly where your shot is going to end up.
Agreed with Azazel above. My brother the Giant and I like doing shotgun shoots, and I can tell ya, its plenty easy to miss a target at 30 feet, even using birdshot
azazel the cat wrote: [And the "don't really have to aim it too precisely" is an incredibly dangerous and stupid piece of advice, which I hope is disregarded by everyone, forever. You never pull the trigger unless you know exactly where your shot is going to end up.
All I'm saying is it's easier to hit something with a shotgun than a pistol or rifle. I really didn't think I'd have to be that specific on things but, well I guess I do. Taking "shot that doesn't have to be precise" and making it out to be I'm saying "just point down a hallway wherever you want and everything dies" is rather misleading. Also seems overly aggressive but that's OT for you.
Someone is in your house and is robbing you. It's dark. You might be groggy. All sorts of wonderful factors playing against you. While I guess some of you wake up fully alert with amazing night vision, some people don't. I'd rather take my chances with a shotgun than a pistol/rifle. Because the shot is not a single round, a shot fired that due to whatever might have been a graze or barely missed will hit. Rounds like buckshot will spread one inch for every yard of flight, as a rule of thumb.
azazel the cat wrote: [And the "don't really have to aim it too precisely" is an incredibly dangerous and stupid piece of advice, which I hope is disregarded by everyone, forever. You never pull the trigger unless you know exactly where your shot is going to end up.
All I'm saying is it's easier to hit something with a shotgun than a pistol or rifle. I really didn't think I'd have to be that specific on things but, well I guess I do. Taking "shot that doesn't have to be precise" and making it out to be I'm saying "just point down a hallway wherever you want and everything dies" is rather misleading. Also seems overly aggressive but that's OT for you.
Someone is in your house and is robbing you. It's dark. You might be groggy. All sorts of wonderful factors playing against you. While I guess some of you wake up fully alert with amazing night vision, some people don't. I'd rather take my chances with a shotgun than a pistol/rifle. Because the shot is not a single round, a shot fired that due to whatever might have been a graze or barely missed will hit. Rounds like buckshot will spread one inch for every yard of flight, as a rule of thumb.
Maybe I did come off as somewhat aggressive; I will admit that the off-hand manner in which you appared to be advocating improper firearm control pissed me off a little. I'm a pretty big defender of firearms, and people not respecting firearms or taking a cavalier attitude to unsafe handling practices is a sore spot for me.
Grey Templar wrote: That extra bit of allowable error will help if you are still sleepy or disorientated. Every little bit helps in a life or death situation.
If you are sleepy and disoriented, or cannot see clearly as Necroshea expressed above, then you have absolutely no business handling a firearm. In that condition you present a danger to every person in your home, or possibly even your neighbourhood, depending on the firearm.
And if you are so sleepy and disoriented, then you have no way to even determine whether or not the situation is "life or death"; that is exactly how people end up shooting their own family members when they come home late.
Maybe I did come off as somewhat aggressive; I will admit that the off-hand manner in which you appared to be advocating improper firearm control pissed me off a little. I'm a pretty big defender of firearms, and people not respecting firearms or taking a cavalier attitude to unsafe handling practices is a sore spot for me.
Not a big deal. Seriously though, OT is bad for people. Really brings out the worst sides of some normally fine posters.
I'm also a texan, so the crazy gun shenanigans, they're just so hard to resist sometimes.
Anyways, yes, shooting without visual confirmation is bad. That's kind of why I jump on kids who try to shoot around corners while playing paintball. Getting shot in the back of the head by a team mate is...less than pleasant. Assuming is bad enough in a discussion, but in a firefight it can really be a tragedy.
Solely for home defense, I'm on the shotgun boat as well.
I'd get a pump 12 gauge and use 00 Buck Shot.
Two big reasons. First, when you hit a target with buckshot at close range, it's done. Your going to put near 10 holes into you target, he'll bleed out fast. Secondly, you don't have to worry nearly as much about putting a round through your wall and into your neighbors house. They have extreme power at close range, but they lose it quickly, and obstructions, like walls, will make them less of a danger to bystanders, then a rifle or pistol round may be.
Now, with doing this I cannot stress enough that when you purchase your gun, whatever you decide to get, you take it to a range (multiple times) and get very comfortable with firing it. Your wife as well. A gun in untrained hands in a tense situation such as a home invasion can be a very bad thing.
Here's some links for you to look at. American prices, in your range. No clue what they'd be like in the Phillipines.
azazel the cat wrote: Seems like most experienced people agree that this mythical animal is called "the firearm you're comfortable and practiced with"
Most experienced people agree that it should be the firearm you're most comfortable and practiced with, as long as that firearm falls within certain conditions. Service calibers for pistols, etc.
To defend my position on shotguns being more forgiving than pistols on aim, I wanted to make it clear that I am in full agreement with Mr. The Cat, that you should always be on target and confident in your aim, if you cant safely take the shot, then dont. BUT! being off by 6 inches at target is a very easy thing to do, especially if your shaking. With that being said, a .357 in the shoulder will not have the same effect as 00 buck, even if only spread 3-5 inches.
But for the OP, if your still reading this post, as you can see pretty much everyones in agreement that its whatever your comfortable with.
Don't listen to any of the nonsense about 9mm lacking stopping power. There was a study done decades ago using nothing but full metal jacket ammo that concluded that 9mm wasn't as good as larger rounds like a .45. With modern, hollow-point home defense rounds like gold-dots, a 9mm kills dead just as well as any of the larger calibers. Buy whichever weapon you and your wife are more comfortable carrying / firing. Take a look at some of the studies comparing the different caliber hollow-point rounds being fired into ballistic gel, you'll get a better sense of what you "need."
Your bigger problem will be putting the round(s) on target with your hands shaking and your blood-pressure raised due to the adrenaline shock. All I can suggest for that is practice. Hit the static range often, take advantage of different opportunities like shoothouses and dynamic targets, and put yourself through some drills where time and accuracy are measured and improved upon.
You'll never be perfect but every improvement will make a difference should you ever need it to matter.
Filthy Sanchez wrote: Don't listen to any of the nonsense about 9mm lacking stopping power. There was a study done decades ago using nothing but full metal jacket ammo that concluded that 9mm wasn't as good as larger rounds like a .45. With modern, hollow-point home defense rounds like gold-dots, a 9mm kills dead just as well as any of the larger calibers. Buy whichever weapon you and your wife are more comfortable carrying / firing. Take a look at some of the studies comparing the different caliber hollow-point rounds being fired into ballistic gel, you'll get a better sense of what you "need."
.
"A 9mm Hollow point might fail to expand but a .45 ACP will never contract"
-Col. Jeff Cooper
I don't think any one ever said anything against 9mm, I know I said I don't like it because I like big nasty holes, or the extra zip from a .40S&W. It's all personal preference.
Ballistics gel wise, the articles I linked above from DocGKR include extensive ballistics gel testing and side by side comparisons.
Seaward wrote: As long as it's a 9mm or above, don't worry about caliber.
This thread is full of some serious facepalm moments. This one takes the cake. You guys can circle jerking and beating your internet chests. This thread has made me lose most of the respect I once had for the OT. Im out.
OP - do extensive research, goto a local gun shop, ask questions, get educated.
Seaward wrote: As long as it's a 9mm or above, don't worry about caliber.
This thread is full of some serious facepalm moments. This one takes the cake. You guys can circle jerking and beating your internet chests. This thread has made me lose most of the respect I once had for the OT. Im out.
OP - do extensive research, goto a local gun shop, ask questions, get educated.
If some people spent less time trying to think of ways to insult people and more ways trying to educate and inform them you'd be amazed at how things would improve.
This thread got me thinking about Philipino 1911's.
I'm not exploring thier Commander model in 9mm. Considering I can get two for the price of one Sig 938 it seems feasible.
AustonT wrote: This thread got me thinking about Philipino 1911's.
I'm not exploring thier Commander model in 9mm. Considering I can get two for the price of one Sig 938 it seems feasible.
One of the guys in my company bought a Rock Island, and he has told me that he's had absolutely zero Fail to Feed, Fire, Extract, etc. (so no problems)
Seaward wrote: As long as it's a 9mm or above, don't worry about caliber.
This thread is full of some serious facepalm moments. This one takes the cake. You guys can circle jerking and beating your internet chests. This thread has made me lose most of the respect I once had for the OT. Im out.
OP - do extensive research, goto a local gun shop, ask questions, get educated.
Why is that a facepalm moment? Why do you appear to be working through personal issues about pistol calibers? I've seen a lot of 9mm vs. .40 vs. 45 ACP fights before, but never a freakout about it. Come lay down on this couch. Tell me about your mother and the bad man. Did they make you shoot 38 special? Its ok. I know, I would cry too.
AustonT wrote: This thread got me thinking about Philipino 1911's.
I'm not exploring thier Commander model in 9mm. Considering I can get two for the price of one Sig 938 it seems feasible.
One of the guys in my company bought a Rock Island, and he has told me that he's had absolutely zero Fail to Feed, Fire, Extract, etc. (so no problems)
They have a pretty decent reputation considering the price.
This thread is full of some serious facepalm moments. This one takes the cake. You guys can circle jerking and beating your internet chests. This thread has made me lose most of the respect I once had for the OT. Im out.
OP - do extensive research, goto a local gun shop, ask questions, get educated.
You're aware that every instructor on the planet recommends service calibers over mouse guns, right? Military, police, security, civilian, doesn't matter. That's one of the few consistent things you'll find.
AustonT wrote: This thread got me thinking about Philipino 1911's. I'm not exploring thier Commander model in 9mm. Considering I can get two for the price of one Sig 938 it seems feasible.
One of the guys in my company bought a Rock Island, and he has told me that he's had absolutely zero Fail to Feed, Fire, Extract, etc. (so no problems)
They have a pretty decent reputation considering the price.
My buddy owns a Rock Island 1911, bought it off our boss (ex-military guy, said he didn't need 5 1911s...) We went to the range and ran about 100 rounds each through it with no jams, fails to fire, etc... (I shot my housemate's 22lr pistol and the gun range's Desert Eagle 1911 while he was getting used to it.
This is just personal anecdotal evidence, but I when given the choice of a .22lr, 9mm, or .45 1911 (based on what I've shot), I would rather have the .22lr since that is what I'm most comfortable with, and can pop off several shots in a row with easy and decent accuracy, then I would then rather have the .45 simply because I like the feel and the recoil in comparison to the 9mm... I think it has something to do with the heft of the gun in comparison to a 9mm
9mm in a 1911 frame is a dream. The officers model was designed for it. 9mm takes a little time to get used to but when you are to can fire rapidly and accurately. The difference with a 45 is you shouldn't have to. It's not a magic bullets where limbs fly off, physics still apply, but when an unexpanded bullet the size of an adult males thumb hits you at or around 800 fps: it makes you reconsider your life choices.
I've come to the conclusion that the reason most younger shooters dont care for 9mm is because they have only ever fired it out of a glock, or glock type pistol. Use a steel frame like the older SW semi autos or a BHP and youll probably change your tune. I keep meaning to drop a stanless steel or magnesium guide rod into my glock to at least partially balace it out.
AustonT wrote: I've come to the conclusion that the reason most younger shooters dont care for 9mm is because they have only ever fired it out of a glock, or glock type pistol. Use a steel frame like the older SW semi autos or a BHP and youll probably change your tune. I keep meaning to drop a stanless steel or magnesium guide rod into my glock to at least partially balace it out.
The bolded part is absolutely why I prefer the 1911 to the 9mm I've shot, it wasn't heavy metal, it was a lightweight gun for sure, but my arm moved a lot when I fired. Though to be fair, the first time I felt the recoil, and heard the shot from the .45... I was scared for about the next ten rounds that I put through it, had to really calm myself down... there was a lot of oomph in that weapon.
AustonT wrote: I've come to the conclusion that the reason most younger shooters dont care for 9mm is because they have only ever fired it out of a glock, or glock type pistol.
Could be, I suppose. My girlfriend learned on a polymer 9mm, but I was fortunately around to keep her from getting one of the pocket 9s the sales guys were trying to push on her when she went shopping for a gun after she picked up a stalker at work. She didn't have any trouble with the M&P she eventually went with, but she also learned the fundamentals before she pulled the trigger on a live round.
Steel-frame service weapons definitely dampen recoil, there's no question about that. A lot of new gun owners pick up something the size of a Sig P239 and are shocked when the recoil's tough to manage, but I'm a firm believer that anything of compact size or above, chambered in any of the common service calibers, is perfectly shootable if you learn right. It's the last part that far, far too many people new to firearms skip.
AustonT wrote: 9mm in a 1911 frame is a dream. The officers model was designed for it. 9mm takes a little time to get used to but when you are to can fire rapidly and accurately. The difference with a 45 is you shouldn't have to. It's not a magic bullets where limbs fly off, physics still apply, but when an unexpanded bullet the size of an adult males thumb hits you at or around 800 fps: it makes you reconsider your life choices.
I've come to the conclusion that the reason most younger shooters dont care for 9mm is because they have only ever fired it out of a glock, or glock type pistol. Use a steel frame like the older SW semi autos or a BHP and youll probably change your tune. I keep meaning to drop a stanless steel or magnesium guide rod into my glock to at least partially balace it out.
I blame Beretta for my general distaste of 9mm handguns.
Back on Rock Island 1911s, I said it earlier and I'll say it again, my Rock Island has never had a malfunction, even after feeding it lots of Tula ammo for plinking on the range she still runs like a swiss watch. The balance... honestly I can't shoot enough with her, it's like an extension of my hand, even in a one handed "traditional" shooting position. I trust mine with my life every day.
AustonT wrote: 9mm in a 1911 frame is a dream. The officers model was designed for it. 9mm takes a little time to get used to but when you are to can fire rapidly and accurately. The difference with a 45 is you shouldn't have to. It's not a magic bullets where limbs fly off, physics still apply, but when an unexpanded bullet the size of an adult males thumb hits you at or around 800 fps: it makes you reconsider your life choices.
I've come to the conclusion that the reason most younger shooters dont care for 9mm is because they have only ever fired it out of a glock, or glock type pistol. Use a steel frame like the older SW semi autos or a BHP and youll probably change your tune. I keep meaning to drop a stanless steel or magnesium guide rod into my glock to at least partially balace it out.
Ironically I think 9mms have less recoil in my plastic M&P then my FS 92.
Those guys are referring to 45 acp in anything shorter than a 4inch barrel regardless of frame type IIRC.
The colt officers model(new agent is an officers model) in 9mm would be ok...I'm also pretty sure Colt isn't offering it in anything but 45acp. They are just chasing a market trend.
Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
HERESY!!!!!!!
Sorry, i really do detest Glocks. I have only seen people who should more than likely not own a firearm want them because of looks, the few I've handled in store felt like a freakin' toy in my hand. I just personally feel that a weapon like a firearm should look and feel like a weapon, not something that people may mistake for a toy.
I know there are plenty of responsible Glock owners out there, just in general I don't find any appeal in them.
That's odd Frazz and you know it. That MandP probably jut fits you better.
KM what do you have against the M9, mated with Italian mags I've never had an issue...but I also. Checked the slides for stress marks on the quarterly inspection.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Glocks are the most readily available sub machinegun in the world. That's why I have one. It's not in my preferred crowd but it's hard to argue with reliable 33rd mags. With a shoulder stock(and a form 1) it's a reasonable replacement for a SW M76.
AustonT wrote: That's odd Frazz and you know it. That MandP probably jut fits you better.
KM what do you have against the M9, mated with Italian mags I've never had an issue...but I also. Checked the slides for stress marks on the quarterly inspection.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Glocks are the most readily available sub machinegun in the world. That's why I have one. It's not in my preferred crowd but it's hard to argue with reliable 33rd mags. With a shoulder stock(and a form 1) it's a reasonable replacement for a SW M76.
Oh yea it is a surprise. The Beretta is more accurate, at least until finish tweaking the M&P (just one more bit of shop work then hurray - hopefully).
Now I have a .45ACP ultra carry and that thing has a bear of a recoil, worse than my 44mag in comparison. It literally aggravates an old head injury and makes my hand start shaking after about 15 rounds. The 9mm M&Pc does that slightloy, but only after about a hundred rounds, and the shaking is very controllable (in fact was non existent in my two tournaments with it). No shaking problems at all for the the Beretta or full size M&P.
Worse than .44 mag? That must be horrible. There was a guy at the range with a six inch "dirty harry" .44 the other week. It was loud, obnoxious and the shooter looked like he was in serious pain. Ooh, but it was really cool looking too.
AustonT wrote: That's odd Frazz and you know it. That MandP probably jut fits you better.
KM what do you have against the M9, mated with Italian mags I've never had an issue...but I also. Checked the slides for stress marks on the quarterly inspection.
.
That is a vital check unless you want to eat italian shrapnel.
I'm sure they're fine firearms, but every Beretta I've ever fired has been a pile of donkey and recoil.
I do have a fondness for my M&P 40C, great little carry gun, but goddess damn I don't know why they make magazines for it without the thumb hold though.
Captain Fantastic wrote:Colt makes this thing, although it seems a bit frankenstein to me. Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
If you can't do the job in 8, what good is another 5 going to be?
Captain Fantastic wrote:Colt makes this thing, although it seems a bit frankenstein to me. Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
If you can't do the job in 8, what good is another 5 going to be?
Better to have too much then too little I've always said.
Captain Fantastic wrote:Colt makes this thing, although it seems a bit frankenstein to me. Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
If you can't do the job in 8, what good is another 5 going to be?
I was busy chortling at some guy at a burger place when I pointed out to my wife his empty holster and empty mag holsters. He had an xd holster and four mag spots 75 rounds. Who is he planning in having a firefight with?
Captain Fantastic wrote:Colt makes this thing, although it seems a bit frankenstein to me. Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
If you can't do the job in 8, what good is another 5 going to be?
I was busy chortling at some guy at a burger place when I pointed out to my wife his empty holster and empty mag holsters. He had an xd holster and four mag spots 75 rounds. Who is he planning in having a firefight with?
That does seem a little excessive. I'd say you wouldn't need to carry more then a single spare mag, for self-defense purposes anyway.
Unless you live in an area with lots of gang activity, in which case you could indeed get caught in a drawn out firefight, you wouldn't need more then that.
Captain Fantastic wrote:Colt makes this thing, although it seems a bit frankenstein to me. Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
If you can't do the job in 8, what good is another 5 going to be?
I was busy chortling at some guy at a burger place when I pointed out to my wife his empty holster and empty mag holsters. He had an xd holster and four mag spots 75 rounds. Who is he planning in having a firefight with?
Prepare for the unexpect...
>Holster was empty
Um nevermind.
Captain Fantastic wrote:Colt makes this thing, although it seems a bit frankenstein to me. Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
If you can't do the job in 8, what good is another 5 going to be?
I was busy chortling at some guy at a burger place when I pointed out to my wife his empty holster and empty mag holsters. He had an xd holster and four mag spots 75 rounds. Who is he planning in having a firefight with?
That does seem a little excessive. I'd say you wouldn't need to carry more then a single spare mag, for self-defense purposes anyway.
Unless you live in an area with lots of gang activity, in which case you could indeed get caught in a drawn out firefight, you wouldn't need more then that.
I put my cap at 15 rounds when feasible. For a single stack like my Sig that means 2 mags. One to make 15 and one in case of failure. For my glock one mag in case of mag failure. In a j frame in I just carry two speed loaders, or none at all. Most situations I carry a j frame in I'd rather not have to use it at all.
piece of advice from all my AF and military buddies. pistols are terrible for home defense. effective range for a pistol is 25 feet. anything within that zone becomes a danger to you and people around you.
Get a shotgun. pump action preffered, as you only have to cock it and people get the point. I've got a Remington 870 express for JUST this reason. cheap, parts are everywhere, and it goes boom in a big way.
now, seriously, instead of just buying a weapon, take some self defense courses as well. you're more likely to get into a scuffle in person than with enough distance to make a gun REALLY feasable. know what I mean?
Rimmy wrote: piece of advice from all my AF and military buddies. pistols are terrible for home defense. effective range for a pistol is 25 feet. anything within that zone becomes a danger to you and people around you.
I dunno what kind of house you live in, but there's only one spot in my entire house that could POSSIBLY get to a 25 foot range. And as certain others have pointed out, the audible noise and its disorienting effects will have a much worse outcome for you and yours.... And I would take any advice from the AF with a HUGE grain of salt
Rimmy wrote: piece of advice from all my AF and military buddies. pistols are terrible for home defense. effective range for a pistol is 25 feet. anything within that zone becomes a danger to you and people around you.
I dunno what kind of house you live in, but there's only one spot in my entire house that could POSSIBLY get to a 25 foot range. And as certain others have pointed out, the audible noise and its disorienting effects will have a much worse outcome for you and yours.... And I would take any advice from the AF with a HUGE grain of salt
Considering the buddy in question shoots professionally on the US Air Force Trap and Skeet team (still active), I take your cynicism with a grain of salt.
shooting indoors is generally ill advised. so make sure you shoot them in the street and they land on your property facing you (or up).
again, your best solution, learn to dis-arm an attacker and do it with your hands.
Krammer adds that sound pressure levels for the various pistols and ammunition tested yielded an average mean of 157.5 dB, which is greater than those previously shown for shotgun and rifle noise levels.
9mm 159.8 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB
thats speculative at best. you'd have to account for load, dimensions of area, barometric pressure, accoustics.. etc etc. it can go up and down depending. regardless, OSHA defines anything that is over 120 db as dangerous. so ill advised to shoot indoors without hearing protection. http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/noisehearingconservation/
Rimmy wrote: regardless, OSHA defines anything that is over 120 db as dangerous.
Sure but not the point. The issue is that shooting a pistol inside is not really less dangerous to one's hearing than shooting a shotgun.
ah. yea that's a stretch. actually, at the range, I find it more tolerable shooting my 12ga's more than my 1911 (.45). the 12ga's aren't as piercing of a noise.
That seems to be borne out by the website I posted above.
You'll find we suggested the same firearm -- variations on the Remington 870. I saw earlier in the thread and just after your post above that people were saying firing a shotgun inside would cause disorienting effects due to noise such that a pistol would be better for home defense. Seems bunk to me.
Manchu wrote: That seems to be borne out by the website I posted above.
You'll find we suggested the same firearm -- variations on the Remington 870. I saw earlier in the thread and just after your post above that people were saying firing a shotgun inside would cause disorienting effects due to noise such that a pistol would be better for home defense. Seems bunk to me.
Can't argue with the logic of the weapon. its a tried and true blue shotty.
disorienting effects though, can't say one way or the other. it is widely known not to fire in small metal spaces, but in a house, with sheetrock and insulation being accousticly dampening as it is, you'd probably be fine as long as you didn't have the muzzle near your ears. Addrenaline will do some AMAZING things to your body though I can tell you this.
I'm a huge gun lover/fan. My current inventory is low (because I live in Commiefornia) but the desire is high. I have the added treat of working security for the federal govt. so I get to see the new toys the cops bring in frequently enough. that being said, all of the law enforcement friends I have, say more accidents are caused by poorly trained people using pistols when a gun is brought into the equation.
its all about training no matter which way you go. if you train properly, you'll be better prepared. and that's really the key.
I've never said anything about noise. At the distances in which you encounter inside the home most of the advantages of shotguns are negated. Most of those engagements happen well under 7yds where a short and portable arm is of greater use than a cumbersome long arm.
AustonT wrote: I've never said anything about noise. At the distances in which you encounter inside the home most of the advantages of shotguns are negated. Most of those engagements happen well under 7yds where a short and portable arm is of greater use than a cumbersome long arm.
and again, I say to you, that within 7 yards a pistol is more harm to you than good.
Rimmy wrote:again, your best solution, learn to dis-arm an attacker and do it with your hands.
Is nobody else going to call BS on this little gem right here?
That is the WORST idea, and generally indicative of someone who learned everything he knows from watching David Bradley movies.
and your better idea is to take someone on with a weapon you are ill trained on how to use? going to the range once a month and putting three clips through a stationary piece of paper aren't going to prepare you for someone breaking into your home.
how many of you ACTUALLY sleep with a loaded weapon within 3 seconds of where you sleep, ASSUMING you are near the weapon AND in position to defend yourself WHEN the assault happens.
no, YOU sir watch too many movies. you're going to be caught off guard, and I for one have 2 small children. i'm not leaving ANY weapon laying around to be used against me or where my kids have access to it. I'll take my chances fighting the guy off and taking a few hits to the face. oh he might meet a baseball bat or something heavy and nearby, but the time it takes to get my guns out of the safe, cock it (assuming its loaded), and THEN try to find the assailant? no sorry. he's already in your bedroom and you've just given them a loaded weapon.
AustonT wrote: I've never said anything about noise. At the distances in which you encounter inside the home most of the advantages of shotguns are negated. Most of those engagements happen well under 7yds where a short and portable arm is of greater use than a cumbersome long arm.
and again, I say to you, that within 7 yards a pistol is more harm to you than good.
Be a pal and show me a citation for what on the surface appears to be absolute rubbish? I've done a quick scan through your 37-page stats paper and couldn't find the conclusion that you're claiming; and I do not feel like critically reading the article in-depth.
Just so you know, YES, I HAVE had a guy break into my home, and YES I DID turn my weapon on him. and thank God he decided to leave on his own terms. its not NEARLY as cool as it sounds. its downright scary.
AustonT wrote: I've never said anything about noise. At the distances in which you encounter inside the home most of the advantages of shotguns are negated. Most of those engagements happen well under 7yds where a short and portable arm is of greater use than a cumbersome long arm.
and again, I say to you, that within 7 yards a pistol is more harm to you than good.
Be a pal and show me a citation for what on the surface appears to be absolute rubbish? I've done a quick scan through your 37-page stats paper and couldn't find the conclusion that you're claiming; and I do not feel like critically reading the article in-depth.
I can't cite the number of law enforcement officials and friends that have given me the same advice. think what you want, I listen to the guys that do this for a living.
Rimmy wrote:again, your best solution, learn to dis-arm an attacker and do it with your hands.
Is nobody else going to call BS on this little gem right here?
That is the WORST idea, and generally indicative of someone who learned everything he knows from watching David Bradley movies.
and your better idea is to take someone on with a weapon you are ill trained on how to use? going to the range once a month and putting three clips through a stationary piece of paper aren't going to prepare you for someone breaking into your home.
how many of you ACTUALLY sleep with a loaded weapon within 3 seconds of where you sleep, ASSUMING you are near the weapon AND in position to defend yourself WHEN the assault happens.
no, YOU sir watch too many movies. you're going to be caught off guard, and I for one have 2 small children. i'm not leaving ANY weapon laying around to be used against me or where my kids have access to it. I'll take my chances fighting the guy off and taking a few hits to the face. oh he might meet a baseball bat or something heavy and nearby, but the time it takes to get my guns out of the safe, cock it (assuming its loaded), and THEN try to find the assailant? no sorry. he's already in your bedroom and you've just given them a loaded weapon.
I believe the safer assumption (that just about everyone has been operating under) is that the person breaking into your house is armed. You are making a grievous mistake if you are assuming any different, as you are effectively advocating showing up to a gunfight unarmed.
Also, you should read the thread. Anyone with any sense has overwhelmingly stressed the importance of training and experience until your are comfortable with your firearm.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rimmy wrote:Just so you know, YES, I HAVE had a guy break into my home, and YES I DID turn my weapon on him. and thank God he decided to leave on his own terms. its not NEARLY as cool as it sounds. its downright scary.
AustonT wrote: I've never said anything about noise. At the distances in which you encounter inside the home most of the advantages of shotguns are negated. Most of those engagements happen well under 7yds where a short and portable arm is of greater use than a cumbersome long arm.
and again, I say to you, that within 7 yards a pistol is more harm to you than good.
Be a pal and show me a citation for what on the surface appears to be absolute rubbish? I've done a quick scan through your 37-page stats paper and couldn't find the conclusion that you're claiming; and I do not feel like critically reading the article in-depth.
First off, you have not the citation that I requested. You have instead posted a link to an entirely different document. Shall I assume that this is your tacit admission that your original statement about handguns being more of a danger to you than your target within 7 yards was complete and utter bs?
Second, the new article you have cited seems to be in agreement with the majority of the posters in this thread, myself included, when we said that the most important thing you can do is receive training and experience. That military.com blog post in no way advocated not using firearms; it merely claimed that a level head is the most important thing. That is in no way contrary to my points, and is in fact in affirmation.
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one that has realized that your keyboard is simply a warp portal from which bs and nonsensical garbage flows from the immaterium unbidden. The highlighted portion is without a doubt the dumbest fething thing I have seen in this thread. And previously competition was stiff. Followed by a string of unrelated links, and better yet one that directly contradicts you and I had to physically stop myself from vomiting in disgust.
How anyone with greater intelligence than a Delta could possibly come to the conclusion that a 40 inch long weapon, that depends on two handed manual action to reload and bring back into battery is superior to an 8inch or smaller automatic weapon designed for the express purpose of engaging and killing a human being at close range is fething unfathomable to me. Let alone inside the distance a human being can cover in 2 seconds or less.
Basically your genius hypothesis is that wielding a 3 foot hand cranked bird gun is a "good idea" when the altercation could easily turn melee. I love it. I bet Trayvon Martin wishes George Zimmerman packed a shotgun instead of a pistol, maybe he wouldn't be so dead. OTOH that situation serves as a pretty obvious fething example of why a small portable firearm is superior in every fething regard at close range. If shotguns where the penultimate in firearms inside the home why don't swat entry teams just all carry shotguns? and why do they waste the time and effort carrying around those pistols that are causing more harm than good to themselves inside 21 feet that aren't effective past 25 feet? You'd think there'd be some kind of solution to that tricky 3 foot range some other weapon could handle.
I was content to ignore you when you wandered into this thread with this:
Rimmy wrote:effective range for a pistol is 25 feet
The maximum effective range for an M9 is 50 meters; that's 164 feet in case you were wondering.
FM 3-23.35
The maximum effective range for a current M1911 is 70 meters; that'd be 229 feet.
TM 00526A-24
Let's go ahead and not talk about the number of people who routinely take game animals from much longer distances using iron sights every year.
In short (even though that passed a long time ago)
You have no idea what the feth you are talking about. Have a good evening,
I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one that has realized that your keyboard is simply a warp portal from which bs and nonsensical garbage flows from the immaterium unbidden. The highlighted portion is without a doubt the dumbest fething thing I have seen in this thread. And previously competition was stiff. Followed by a string of unrelated links, and better yet one that directly contradicts you and I had to physically stop myself from vomiting in disgust.
How anyone with greater intelligence than a Delta could possibly come to the conclusion that a 40 inch long weapon, that depends on two handed manual action to reload and bring back into battery is superior to an 8inch or smaller automatic weapon designed for the express purpose of engaging and killing a human being at close range is fething unfathomable to me. Let alone inside the distance a human being can cover in 2 seconds or less.
Basically your genius hypothesis is that wielding a 3 foot hand cranked bird gun is a "good idea" when the altercation could easily turn melee. I love it. I bet Trayvon Martin wishes George Zimmerman packed a shotgun instead of a pistol, maybe he wouldn't be so dead. OTOH that situation serves as a pretty obvious fething example of why a small portable firearm is superior in every fething regard at close range. If shotguns where the penultimate in firearms inside the home why don't swat entry teams just all carry shotguns? and why do they waste the time and effort carrying around those pistols that are causing more harm than good to themselves inside 21 feet that aren't effective past 25 feet? You'd think there'd be some kind of solution to that tricky 3 foot range some other weapon could handle.
I was content to ignore you when you wandered into this thread with this:
The maximum effective range for an M9 is 50 meters; that's 164 feet in case you were wondering.
FM 3-23.35
The maximum effective range for a current M1911 is 70 meters; that'd be 229 feet.
TM 00526A-24
Let's go ahead and not talk about the number of people who routinely take game animals from much longer distances using iron sights every year.
In short (even though that passed a long time ago)
You have no idea what the feth you are talking about. Have a good evening,
Clearly you believe that all situations require the use of a firearm. I do not. I have in fact, been witness first hand, to situations where it was safer for everyone involved NOT to draw a weapon.
your ability to hunt makes you a better more qualified gunman huh? tell me all mighty, how many deer have you taken down with your 9mm pistol exactly? because you sure as hell aren't using a .308 through the scope in a home invasion.
and regardless of what the maximum trajectory of the weapon is, I said effective range. meaning that within 7 yards (21 feet) it is possible for an assailant to get to you and cause harm or fatality regardless of whether or not you have a gun pointed at them. Within that same distance, if you have NOT managed to stop the attacker, it is possible for them to use the weapon on you. and yes, a pistol is much easier to rip from someones hands than a shotgun. AND speaking of shotguns, NO I did not say use a 40" barrel. you CAN get a snub 15 or 18" and even 24" barrel for an 870, as well as a pistol stock, and a combat action. they DO exist.
Spoiler:
You know what, its really not worth arguing about anyway. I hope to God you never find yourself in a situation having to pull your gun. I certainly don't want to do it again. and yes, I did manage to have my 1911 ready and near by when someone tried to break into my house. and yes I did grab it. because NO I am not trained in hand to hand. My wife and daughter sought refuge in the closet of our room with the shotgun and I stepped into the house. the dude fled and I didn't have to fire a weapon.
judge whatever you like. you're not changing my opinion.
AustonT wrote:You have no idea what ... you are talking about. Have a good evening,
AustonT is correct here.
Rimmy wrote:Clearly you believe that all situations require the use of a firearm. I do not. I have in fact, been witness first hand, to situations where it was safer for everyone involved NOT to draw a weapon.
Sure, there are always situations where it's safer for everyone involved to NOT draw a weapon. However, I am at my most unsafe when I have no weapon and the other guy does. Conversely, the safest situation in these circumstances is for me to have a weapon and the other guy not to. In other words, your empty platitudes are pointless to this discussion. You may as well chime in with "Some dogs are big. Some dogs are not as big".
Rimmy wrote:and regardless of what the maximum trajectory of the weapon is, I said effective range. meaning that within 7 yards (21 feet) it is possible for an assailant to get to you and cause harm or fatality regardless of whether or not you have a gun pointed at them. Within that same distance, if you have NOT managed to stop the attacker, it is possible for them to use the weapon on you.
It is possible =/= it is likely. I fething loathe the "just close your eyes and think of Christmas" argument that you are presenting here. It is the same argument that used to be given to women in case they were being attacked, and it is complete and utter BS. If I'm within 21 feet of someone, the odds of them reaching me before I can get at least 2 rounds off is slim to none, and at that range I'm not going to miss center mass when handling a firearm that I'm comfortable and practiced with. And I don't rattle easy, either. This all leads back to the repeated advice given to the OP of "practice, practice, practice". However, experience notwithstanding, the general claim that an attacker will hurt you worse if you have a weapon is an unsupported falsehood: the very nature of an attacker is to harm you. The level of harm is irrelevant to the attack, as you should consider your life to be in jeopardy irrespective of weapons. An unarmed attacker could potentially kill you with their bare hands.
Rimmy wrote:You know what, its really not worth arguing about anyway. I hope to God you never find yourself in a situation having to pull your gun. I certainly don't want to do it again. and yes, I did manage to have my 1911 ready and near by when someone tried to break into my house. and yes I did grab it. because NO I am not trained in hand to hand.
judge whatever you like. you're not changing my opinion.
This is the part that is aggravating. You were advocating that the best defense against an attacker in your home is to disarm the attacker with your bare hands, -which is stupid beyond reason to begin with- yet you are now even admitting that you don't even know how to accomplish this, or if it's even possible, as you have no hand-to-hand training yourself. I was right when I said that you seemed to be offering advice you learned from watching David Bradley movies.
Do you always spend this much time giving arbitrary advice that you have admittedly no experience in?
Do please keep in mind, I'm not trying to convince you. I have no desire to do so. But I do want people to recognize how foolish and incredibly dangerous the advice that you have posted is, and I want to make sure the OP in no way heeds it, for his own safety and that of people whom depend on him.
The maximum effective range for an M9 is 50 meters; that's 164 feet in case you were wondering.
FM 3-23.35
The maximum effective range for a current M1911 is 70 meters; that'd be 229 feet.
TM 00526A-24
and regardless of what the maximum trajectory of the weapon is, I said effective range. meaning that within 7 yards (21 feet) it is possible for an assailant to get to you and cause harm or fatality regardless of whether or not you have a gun pointed at them.
See those nifty things within the quote that say FM and TM?? In the Army, those mean Field Manual and Technical Manual. In regards to firearms that the US Military system uses, these are generally compiled and produced by the manufacturer within Gov't specs (as in it's in the military shape and size, as opposed to their civilian manual counterparts). So, I'd trust their Effective Range much more than your completely bogus "7 yards"
Also, for the record, that shotgun you posted is illegal in some states of the US due to it's length.
If you looked me square in the face, and told me that you take advice about home defense from a website devoted to plastic miniatures and tabletop wargames, you would be as stupid as you are clueless.
What do you do for a living? hmm? I manage security systems for the federal government. Yes I am former Air Force. Yes I am trained on how to use a weapon, no I am not trained on hand to hand (for obvious reasons, I joined the air force)
I spend half of my time with federal and local law enforcement. all you backyard hero's with all your opinions on what you'd do IF someone presented you with an absolute worst case scenario.
would you like to know what your actual statistical numbers are in ACTUALLY going through this scenario?
Is the Department of Justice analytical study on victimization done in 2011 recent and credible enough for you? Want a better definition of Robbery as defined by the Department of Justice? http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=313
Wanna know what the federal officers here at work use in our buildings as they train for close quarters situations? shotguns. Benelli 12. ga tactical semi automatic's to be exact. The secondary weapon in a return fire against a pistol? an M-4 assault rifle. wanna know what they CARRY but do not use unless its a last resort? a Beretta 9mm.
So tell me again all you hunters and non security and law enforcement agent WOULD do IF someone were to jump in your house.
Check your damn facts before you spout off what you THINK would happen in a situation I can almost assure none of you have been in and likely never will, seeing as how that crime is exactly 3.95% of the entire population of the united states.
Say what all you want. Poke fun at whatever you want. call me whatever you want. my advice remains the same.
Shotgun. 12.ga short barrel pistol grip, coupled with some defensive art training. If you have little expeirnce witha firearm, I am firm that a pistol is going to cause more harm than good.
lay on it people. You got nothin on me but talk and opinion.
See those nifty things within the quote that say FM and TM?? In the Army, those mean Field Manual and Technical Manual. In regards to firearms that the US Military system uses, these are generally compiled and produced by the manufacturer within Gov't specs (as in it's in the military shape and size, as opposed to their civilian manual counterparts). So, I'd trust their Effective Range much more than your completely bogus "7 yards"
Also, for the record, that shotgun you posted is illegal in some states of the US due to it's length.
Effective for the round. put a guy in front of you with an airsoft pistol, or in our case the sesams rounds our officers use to train and then tell me otherwise.
Also for the record the OPIIRC mentioned he lived in the Phillipine's. ie who cares about US law.
So tell me again all you hunters and non security and law enforcement agent WOULD do IF someone were to jump in your house.
I'd probably try hiding until I had the opportunity to take a swing at them with my walking stick. More likely, I would tell them I'm going for a pint and then walk out, letting my insurance cover it afterwards. My fear of this happening though is precisely 0%.
But this is dakka. Reality is not something we actually work within the scope of here. I thought that was more obvious than it apparently is. Thanks for ruining the immersion. :(
Also for the record the OPIIRC mentioned he lived in the Phillipine's. ie who cares about US law.
Just because the OP is in the Philippines doesn't mean that there aren't others who have looked at this thread looking for the same thing as he asked about.
And while I was stationed in Germany, we "got" to use the "paint" rounds during a training event, all of my rounds found their mark. Does that translate exactly to a real life, high pressure situation? No, but during my second tour in Iraq, my team was ambushed and got into actual firefights enough that I know how I personally handle those types of situations.
Am I smart enough to realize that the chances of my home being broken into are slim, yes. But I also don't make my place a target by leaving blinds open, or doors unlocked. I get pissed at the wife when she does things like that. But, as with all things, you go into them hoping you'll never have to go through it but need to realize that it CAN.
You advocate home defense training, which is all well and good, but the person who does that training NEEDS to get it into their heads that gak can hit the fan for real, and treat the training they pay for with the due respect it deserves. If they take a course like this at say, 25 and die at 80 never having had to use the training then that's all well and good. But if they did that training, go through a situation where their "training" needed to kick in and didn't because they didnt take it seriously will regret not doing so.
Anf every ditch digger and jarhead in the world thinks that their house is friggin Kabul and they're Captain frickin America.
real worl thugs, they aren't combatants. they don't fight with that tenacity. they aren't heavily armed. Oh they're bad people, but christ, the scneario isn't about prior service members and an arsenal. its a normal civilian trying to scare off someone from burglarizing his home.
All you greenies are all alike. just mo dakka all the time.
why outsmart them with you can simply outgun them right?
Also for the record the OPIIRC mentioned he lived in the Phillipine's. ie who cares about US law.
Just because the OP is in the Philippines doesn't mean that there aren't others who have looked at this thread looking for the same thing as he asked about.
And while I was stationed in Germany, we "got" to use the "paint" rounds during a training event, all of my rounds found their mark. Does that translate exactly to a real life, high pressure situation? No, but during my second tour in Iraq, my team was ambushed and got into actual firefights enough that I know how I personally handle those types of situations.
Am I smart enough to realize that the chances of my home being broken into are slim, yes. But I also don't make my place a target by leaving blinds open, or doors unlocked. I get pissed at the wife when she does things like that. But, as with all things, you go into them hoping you'll never have to go through it but need to realize that it CAN.
You advocate home defense training, which is all well and good, but the person who does that training NEEDS to get it into their heads that gak can hit the fan for real, and treat the training they pay for with the due respect it deserves. If they take a course like this at say, 25 and die at 80 never having had to use the training then that's all well and good. But if they did that training, go through a situation where their "training" needed to kick in and didn't because they didnt take it seriously will regret not doing so.
Thank you for your service.
But seriously, does ANY of your training, at all, make you think that an average civilian can emulate that? You spend HOW many hours training?
Oh trust me, being an Airmen didn't remotely qualify me as an expert compared to the grunts in the field, but i'm also not naive enough to think that your average person can respectfully juy buy a gun an magically its all better. no way. they buy a pistol, they are inviting danger beyond the worst case scenario.
Criminals aren't soldiers. and they don't act like them. and they don't fight like them. and they don't think like them. you CANNOT compare a meth head to a military engagement.
While it is unlikely a criminal that is armed will be packing an AK, it is possable.
Assault rifles are more common on the streets then people will care to admit. The other possable situation is them having a sawed off shotgun.
Don't assume the armed guy breaking into your house is carrying a pistol. Be aware he could have something bigger, or that there could be more then one guy breaking in.
Rimmy wrote:again, your best solution, learn to dis-arm an attacker and do it with your hands.
Rimmy wrote:What do you do for a living? hmm? I manage security systems for the federal government. Yes I am former Air Force. Yes I am trained on how to use a weapon, no I am not trained on hand to hand (for obvious reasons, I joined the air force)
I'll just leave your posts side by side here and let everyone just see how ridiculous they are. Either you work in a security-monitoring call center and fantasize about watching American Ninja 3 or else.... nothing. That's probably it.
Rimmy wrote:I spend half of my time with federal and local law enforcement.
And yet you appear to have learned nothing. Tell us some more about how learning to disarm armed attackers with your bare hands is the best defense. Please, I'm curious. Go on.
Rimmy wrote: why outsmart them with you can simply outgun them right?
So you're saying he needs the assault rifle and/or the tank that was undoubtedly recommended somewhere between pages 2 and 4?
I would go for the tank, just park it outside with the barrel pointed through the window at the door. All you need is a remote trigger, that can be activated from your bed, and blam, you kill the intruder, yourself, anyone else within probably 100 feet to the sides, and everyone within a couple blocks down muzzle. I like this better than the flame thrower idea. Not only will the intruder not get your stuff, neither will your neighbors, or their neighbors just in case!
Note: above numbers are completely made up, I have no idea what the shock wave from the muzzle of a tank barrel indoors would do, but I like my scenario
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks for that link too Auston, great stuff lol
A firearm for self/home defense is wasted money. The chances of someone breaking into your home are tiny. Truly tiny. And the overwhelming majority of criminals who attempt to break into your home will flee when confronted. A simple "Hey, get the hell outta here, I'm calling the cops!" is enough to send them running.
Further, it's dangerous. A firearm for home defense needs to be loaded, or able to be very quickly loaded, and it needs to be very quickly accessible. Which means the wrong people can access it. Oh, but you'd never let the wrong people in your home, right? Everyone has high-level training and would never do anything silly?
Wrong. Tradespeople, other peoples kids, friends and relatives will be in the house. Even the people you've trained and who would never do anything silly with that firearm will eventually do something silly with that firearm.
At the end of the day, you're taking a significant risk to combat an insignificant threat, and that's just not clever. But, it's wired into the reptilian part of our brain to protect our territory and defend our tribe, so the sentiment to have a gun in the house is a lot stronger than the desire to, say, get your electrical wiring checked over and change the batteries in your smoke alarm, which on the balance of probabilities are far more likely to save your lives and property than a gun is.
AustonT wrote:It seems Gecko45 has come out of his long hiatus with the new handle Rimmy. Welcome back mall ninja.
I don't get it.
Legendary moron on gun forums, google his posts they're hilarious.
As to disarming your opponents, well I'm not a highly trained air scout and security whatzit who hangs out with LEOs a lot, but I am a Marine, a fourteen year martial artist (so I think I can say I know my way around hand to hand and a gun) and just to final line it here.
If you are in ANY threat situation in ANY environment and you are unarmed while your opponent(s) are armed you are at an extreme disadvantage that will in all honest have a solid chance of killing you or hurting you severely. If you've trained for it for a long freaking time you still have a pretty good chance of ending up on a slab at county. Doing that in a home defense situation is even dumber. You just woke up, it's 3am, you're groggy and disoriented and now you're going to try to do a complex hand to hand maneuver in the dark on a guy you can only really see the silhouette of? You may as well kneel down and point to the side of your body you want the bullet wound on because that's what you're sorely begging for.
Compared to a full martial art firearms are not affected by your size and musculature, any one can be lethal and train to use a gun effectively from your 90 year old granny on down, it takes time and you need to develop the mindset to go with it which also takes practice and preferably training, it however does not take even as long as it does to make a Marine or Army infantryman combat ready to turn someone who's never picked up a gun before into a competent marksman or woman. Practice your draw and stance every day, shoot whenever you can, get your permit and carry everywhere, even when you're not armed develop an alert mindset and take proper steps to secure your home, go through in your mind how to react if and when the worst happens. Drill until your weapon, no matter what you choose is a part of you.
DO NOT EVER try to fight someone for a weapon when you don't have to. My instructors at my martial arts school have all been training for 20-30 years and can do things to masonry with their bare hands that make you not want to spar with them. They ALL carry concealed handguns and have pistols in the home for home defense.
A firearm for self/home defense is wasted money. The chances of someone breaking into your home are tiny. Truly tiny. And the overwhelming majority of criminals who attempt to break into your home will flee when confronted. A simple "Hey, get the hell outta here, I'm calling the cops!" is enough to send them running.
Further, it's dangerous. A firearm for home defense needs to be loaded, or able to be very quickly loaded, and it needs to be very quickly accessible. Which means the wrong people can access it. Oh, but you'd never let the wrong people in your home, right? Everyone has high-level training and would never do anything silly?
Wrong. Tradespeople, other peoples kids, friends and relatives will be in the house. Even the people you've trained and who would never do anything silly with that firearm will eventually do something silly with that firearm.
At the end of the day, you're taking a significant risk to combat an insignificant threat, and that's just not clever. But, it's wired into the reptilian part of our brain to protect our territory and defend our tribe, so the sentiment to have a gun in the house is a lot stronger than the desire to, say, get your electrical wiring checked over and change the batteries in your smoke alarm, which on the balance of probabilities are far more likely to save your lives and property than a gun is.
It's fair to point out that Kaldor is a cop from the part of the world where firearms are the root of all evil and is highly biased. There are also a number of methods that keep a weapon secure to wandering hands but accessible to you. For example I keep my pistol with the rest of the toys in the safe when it's not on me and when I hit the rack it has a nice little holster hidden behind the headboard. Alternate secure storage methods that are easy for fast access include a bio locked safe. I have a couple friends with those in their dresser drawers and they seem to like them a lot. The wife can get the gun, he can get the gun, but no one else can get it open.
I know OP is basically decided on buying a gun, but there are other options. Collapsible Batons are getting pretty advanced, and can be had on the cheap. Black Jacks, Tazers, Mace and Titanium Bats can all be bought at major sporting goods stores.
Obviously, a knife could protect you, but only if you know what you're doing, and don't mind getting cut up, or the possibility of it being turned on you. I don't know. I'm stuck on knives. It's probably a totally different feeling to be up close and personal with your enemy, watching the blood pour out of their body. I've never had someone else's blood on my body. I've heard it's pretty traumatizing.
Captain Fantastic wrote:I know OP is basically decided on buying a gun, but there are other options. Collapsible Batons are getting pretty advanced, and can be had on the cheap. Black Jacks, Tazers, Mace and Titanium Bats can all be bought at major sporting goods stores.
Obviously, a knife could protect you, but only if you know what you're doing, and don't mind getting cut up, or the possibility of it being turned on you. I don't know. I'm stuck on knives. It's probably a totally different feeling to be up close and personal with your enemy, watching the blood pour out of their body. I've never had someone else's blood on my body. I've heard it's pretty traumatizing.
If you're going to use a weapon, use the most efficient one: the firearm. A baton will just get you shot.
Knives are a terrible idea, generally. Unless you know exactly what you're doing, and I mean formal combat training, then you're basically going to be in for an ugly, nasty, bloody dogfight. If there is any way to avoid getting up close enough to use knives, then use that method, please. A knife fight should be the last thing anyone wants to get involved in.
I saw or read somewhere that one way to see what a knife fight would be like and how badly you will get jacked up, is to:
1. Get a friend who has anger issues
2. Give friend a Giant marker, the ones with a giant chisel tip.
3. Get yourself another marker thats the same size, but make it a different color.
4. Put on a white shirt.
5. Have your friend attack you with his marker and you fend him off with yours.
Any mark on your clothing indicates a spot you were cut, any marks on arms or neck could be a show stopper, dropped knife or cut artery..
Dunno where I saw that at but its an interesting idea, and actually sounds like a bit of fun on a boring afternoon.
But none of that really matters if they shoot you, a la Indiana Jones style.
Anyway I would give that a shot if you wanted to see what knife fighting is all about on a level that you could reasonably expect to face in the event of a robbery.
IronWarLeg wrote:I saw or read somewhere that one way to see what a knife fight would be like and how badly you will get jacked up, is to:
1. Get a friend who has anger issues
2. Give friend a Giant marker, the ones with a giant chisel tip.
3. Get yourself another marker thats the same size, but make it a different color.
4. Put on a white shirt.
5. Have your friend attack you with his marker and you fend him off with yours.
Any mark on your clothing indicates a spot you were cut, any marks on arms or neck could be a show stopper, dropped knife or cut artery..
Dunno where I saw that at but its an interesting idea, and actually sounds like a bit of fun on a boring afternoon.
But none of that really matters if they shoot you, a la Indiana Jones style.
Anyway I would give that a shot if you wanted to see what knife fighting is all about on a level that you could reasonably expect to face in the event of a robbery.
This is a great idea to get a sense of how crummy the experience might be. A slightly more realistic option is to buy a couple rubber training knives and put some red lipstick on their edges. Neither capture the arterial-spray goodness or the glorious tendon-cutting action, but it'll give you a general idea.
Yep first rule of a knife fight is you're going to get cut, probably a lot if it lasts for more then a couple seconds and it shouldn't if you're any good, and if you're not then you'll be dead and it will cease to be a concern of yours. Every combat engagement where weapons are involved is to the death, thinking of it in any other way will earn you a nice piece of real estate with a rock over it.
Here's a fun little chart.
Notice how most of that is in SECONDS. This chart doesn't have the femoral artery which I believe is in the very low seconds as well. (I recall hearing three seconds till you pass out, and death in six, but don't quote me on it)
I concur with IronWar and Azazel for any one curious about fighting with knives. I've used both methods and they work just fine for letting you know just how quickly you'd die in a knife fight. The markers and white T-shirts are a lot cheaper then training knives and lip stick though if you're on a budget.
Fun thought, in the bad old days of martial arts in the 30s and 40s death matches did occur, sometimes with short sticks, ye olde equivalent to a telescopic baton. Average time for match? Seconds again, they were over in two blows and who ever landed the first blow would land the second and final. Disabler. Death blow.
I'm not a bad hand in a fight, but I'll stick to my pistol. Better to both outsmart AND out gun one's opponent.
A firearm for self/home defense is wasted money. The chances of someone breaking into your home are tiny. Truly tiny. And the overwhelming majority of criminals who attempt to break into your home will flee when confronted. A simple "Hey, get the hell outta here, I'm calling the cops!" is enough to send them running.
Further, it's dangerous. A firearm for home defense needs to be loaded, or able to be very quickly loaded, and it needs to be very quickly accessible. Which means the wrong people can access it. Oh, but you'd never let the wrong people in your home, right? Everyone has high-level training and would never do anything silly?
Wrong. Tradespeople, other peoples kids, friends and relatives will be in the house. Even the people you've trained and who would never do anything silly with that firearm will eventually do something silly with that firearm.
At the end of the day, you're taking a significant risk to combat an insignificant threat, and that's just not clever. But, it's wired into the reptilian part of our brain to protect our territory and defend our tribe, so the sentiment to have a gun in the house is a lot stronger than the desire to, say, get your electrical wiring checked over and change the batteries in your smoke alarm, which on the balance of probabilities are far more likely to save your lives and property than a gun is.
Thanks Kaldor.
AustonT/azazel the cat: did you read this? just making sure you are capable of eating humble pie.
AustonT/azazel the cat: did you read this? just making sure you are capable of eating humble pie.
That's not really constructive to the conversation at hand :-/
Like everyone else that starts one of these threads, it always goes back to what you feel comfortable with. I'm comfortable with my former housemate's .22lr pistol, and I have slept with it next to my head with the thought that our house might be attacked, my housemate was fooling around with a girl who said her baby daddy was out of the picture, turns out he wasn't and was fething ticked, so for a solid week we slept with various handguns within arms reach and magazines next to them should ish go down. I have since moved out since I couldn't afford loans and rent, and I have a Mosin in my basement, I live in the attic. I don't feel comfortable with that because it's too dang big for our house, and we have an alarm system (that I have set off, so I know it works ). Not to mention that unless you're holding a gun that says Replica and the guy breaking into your house is holding a Desert Eagle point five o, then simply brandishing a gun goes a long way too... Would I shoot someone if it came down to it? I don't know, but would I have the muscle memory to pop a few .22 shots into his chest? Yes, and when you need to react on instinct muscle memory goes a long way.
Much like you have said AustonT and others words won't go to change your opinion on not using a gun against an intruder, OP has stated he is looking to buy a gun, so instead of saying, OP you're putting everyone in danger by buying a gun, be constructive and say, while I don't think you should buy a gun, if you are dead set on this, look at x, y, and z, for these reasons...
A firearm for self/home defense is wasted money. The chances of someone breaking into your home are tiny. Truly tiny. And the overwhelming majority of criminals who attempt to break into your home will flee when confronted. A simple "Hey, get the hell outta here, I'm calling the cops!" is enough to send them running.
Further, it's dangerous. A firearm for home defense needs to be loaded, or able to be very quickly loaded, and it needs to be very quickly accessible. Which means the wrong people can access it. Oh, but you'd never let the wrong people in your home, right? Everyone has high-level training and would never do anything silly?
Wrong. Tradespeople, other peoples kids, friends and relatives will be in the house. Even the people you've trained and who would never do anything silly with that firearm will eventually do something silly with that firearm.
At the end of the day, you're taking a significant risk to combat an insignificant threat, and that's just not clever. But, it's wired into the reptilian part of our brain to protect our territory and defend our tribe, so the sentiment to have a gun in the house is a lot stronger than the desire to, say, get your electrical wiring checked over and change the batteries in your smoke alarm, which on the balance of probabilities are far more likely to save your lives and property than a gun is.
Thanks Kaldor.
I'm drowning thanks for throwing me this anchor
If you'd like to subscribe the the fantasy that the chances of someone breaking into your home are tiny, sure. I mean only one out of every five homes are broken into; what are the odds right?
About 1 in 5. I know, numbers right? I've already come to terms with the very real possibility that you won't be able to absorb this information as with previous posts involving numbers. Maybe you can ask your new friend what the effective range of his service weapon was. Oh but let's not dig open old wounds with obvious and readily obtainable answers. Lets talk about the miniscule chance (20% per annum) that your home would be broken into. I mean everybody runs away right? All you have to do is yell "oi, get out!" and they scurry off into the wild. That must be why 38% of all assaults and 60% of rapes occur in home invasions.
If only someone collected data on these kinds of events (the FBI) and they were compiled into some sort of easy to understand graphic by an organization not touting the values of gun ownership. Oh, right.
Awkward, right?
But you might ask yourself.
What kind of idiot attempts to resolve a lethal situation when they lack the requisite experience or qualifications?
Well, you for one, as you've already mentioned ITT. Let's put aside the fact that whilst digging this hole to China you've demonstrated all of the actions Kaldor stands against. Let's just focus on the fact that Kaldor is making statements that simply don't hold up to the facts.
Kaldor wrote: Most rapists are friends or family of the victim, not strangers attacking them at night.
If perchance you widened your net to sexual assault then he'd be right but there's those silly data sets again that report that 38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance and 7% are a relative. I'm sure those idiots at the US Department of Justice just make up these numbers anyway. If they did at least you'd have something in common with them.
Nom nom, delicious pie. I'm not sure its humble though. Cherry?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is it particularly fair that I used Kaldor's previous anti gun arguments: not particularly. But it serves as a reminder this isn't the first time Kal has walked down this trail.
right so the propoganda and fear mongering you're spreading from the FBI are magically better than the DoJ numbers I pointed out to you earlier, where they define the number of robberies and associated crimes across the last year and submit that there are approx 550,000 of them per year. given the population and statistics, its a 14% chance your home will be a victim, a ~4% chance you personally will.
so you CAN read. you just choose to read arguments that support your Rambo experience instead of trusting the men and women that do this as a profession.
Since we like big fancy photo's: I took the liberty of highlighting the violent victimization chart in the results page, by household location. you can determine where you stand based on this data. 27,000 cases in the western REGION of the US for suburban areas (where I live) (granted all of this data applies only to the US)
given my odd's, I think i'm fine. make your own decision.
but asking the LEO's in my neck of the woods, its generally accepted to be bad practice to buy a gun with the sole intent of home defense.
but thats ok, you'll have another bogus reason to support your flawed logic like fear mongering and other propoganda to entice the sheeple to buy guns.
HAHAHAHAHA I just noticed your so called "FBI" poster was made by the Homeowners Insurance group. (bottom right) nice. yea cuz they're TOTALLY looking after YOU right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know, a buddy of mine just said to me. that lowering myself to your level at this point is stupid. he's right. I might as well be arguing with a stone wall.
Do your thing. I'll be removing myself from this thread.
Rimmy wrote: right so the propoganda and fear mongering you're spreading from the FBI are magically better than the DoJ numbers I pointed out to you earlier, where they define the number of robberies and associated crimes across the last year and submit that there are approx 550,000 of them per year. given the population and statistics, its a 14% chance your home will be a victim, a ~4% chance you personally will.
It's almost as if the FBI is PART of the DOJ /shock. It's also almost as if "home invasion" and "robbery" were different crimes. Oh righto, they are.
HAHAHAHAHA I just noticed your so called "FBI" poster was made by the Homeowners Insurance group. (bottom right) nice. yea cuz they're TOTALLY looking after YOU right?
Yeah those silly feths, using DOJ statistics that you value so dearly and making them into pretty pictures. One might ask themselves if much has changed since 2000 when that graphic was cobbled together.
Bureau of Justice Statistics National Crime Victimization Survey: Victimization During Household Burglary wrote:
Violence during household burglaries remained stable from 2000 to 2007. The percentage of these burglaries that included violence remained stable between 2000 (6.3%) and 2005 (5.7%). Between 2005 and 2007, however, there is some indication of an increase in the percentage of violent burglaries from 5.7% to 7.7%.
Oh so what you are saying is nothing has changed?
Bureau of Justice Statistics National Crime Victimization Survey: Victimization During Household Burglary wrote: That's exactly right AustonT, instead of posting nebulous links and saying, "here this proves my point stupids!" it helps to read what the data actually indicates.
You know, a buddy of mine just said to me. that lowering myself to your level at this point is stupid. he's right. I might as well be arguing with a stone wall.
Do your thing. I'll be removing myself from this thread.
I know right? It's almost like when you make gak up and someone (or you know, a whole grip of people) calls you out on it, you should stop.
Hey make sure that friend puts an extra layer of duct tape on that back trauma plate, could be a rough day out in the mall.
IronWarLeg wrote: I saw or read somewhere that one way to see what a knife fight would be like and how badly you will get jacked up, is to:
1. Get a friend who has anger issues
2. Give friend a Giant marker, the ones with a giant chisel tip.
3. Get yourself another marker thats the same size, but make it a different color.
4. Put on a white shirt.
5. Have your friend attack you with his marker and you fend him off with yours.
Any mark on your clothing indicates a spot you were cut, any marks on arms or neck could be a show stopper, dropped knife or cut artery..
Dunno where I saw that at but its an interesting idea, and actually sounds like a bit of fun on a boring afternoon.
But none of that really matters if they shoot you, a la Indiana Jones style.
Anyway I would give that a shot if you wanted to see what knife fighting is all about on a level that you could reasonably expect to face in the event of a robbery.
This really won't help. Given what I know about stress, my personal fighting experience and jujitsu knowledge you aren't learning anything to help you. The way I've learned to disarm someone with a knife, they have to stab at you first and you have to catch them in the act of stabbing at you. The best solution is to not get there in the first place and give them what they want. The way to disarm a gun is to basically be in a stick up situation with the gun inches from you and pray you're fast enough. Again best solution is give them what they want.
Rimmy, not to go off topic, but... you're not allowed to host non-wargaming images to dakka...
And this thread WAS doing a lot for those of us that would like to own a gun for personal reasons, including target practice and home defense, and was providing good information both factual and anecdotal...
Please don't ruin this thread with this gak-storm that is brewing. If you don't like the idea of someone defending their home with a gun, come in, say your peace and then leave. This is reaching dangerous levels of dickery...
IronWarLeg wrote: I saw or read somewhere that one way to see what a knife fight would be like and how badly you will get jacked up, is to:
1. Get a friend who has anger issues
2. Give friend a Giant marker, the ones with a giant chisel tip.
3. Get yourself another marker thats the same size, but make it a different color.
4. Put on a white shirt.
5. Have your friend attack you with his marker and you fend him off with yours.
Any mark on your clothing indicates a spot you were cut, any marks on arms or neck could be a show stopper, dropped knife or cut artery..
Dunno where I saw that at but its an interesting idea, and actually sounds like a bit of fun on a boring afternoon.
But none of that really matters if they shoot you, a la Indiana Jones style.
Anyway I would give that a shot if you wanted to see what knife fighting is all about on a level that you could reasonably expect to face in the event of a robbery.
This really won't help. Given what I know about stress, my personal fighting experience and jujitsu knowledge you aren't learning anything to help you. The way I've learned to disarm someone with a knife, they have to stab at you first and you have to catch them in the act of stabbing at you. The best solution is to not get there in the first place and give them what they want. The way to disarm a gun is to basically be in a stick up situation with the gun inches from you and pray you're fast enough. Again best solution is give them what they want.
Iron was suggesting this as a method to see just how screwed you are in a knife fight, not learn how to disarm a knife.
Right, my post was geared more towards those that feel a knife is a good self defense option over a gun, it demonstrates more of what would happen should you go heads up with a knife against someone else with a knife, as opposed to having a gun. Most will not know how to disarm another person with a knife and, if it came to it, go slashy stabby time in a manner completely bereft of professionalism.
Rimmy, would you be upset to learn that in Canada, handguns are required to be kept unloaded, in gun safe, with trigger locks engaged? It's really a fantastic system- it'll take about 5-10 seconds for you to open the safe, disengage the trigger lock and feed in a magazine or speed loader. This provides a nice balance of availability/preparedness, with the safety of knowing that nobody but you will be using the firearm. You should think about measures such as that, rather than just spouting your own personal terror at the concept of handguns.
And you still haven't apologized for saying the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life (your bit about the best defense is to run up and disarm your armed attacker with your bare hands).
A firearm for self/home defense is wasted money. The chances of someone breaking into your home are tiny. Truly tiny. And the overwhelming majority of criminals who attempt to break into your home will flee when confronted. A simple "Hey, get the hell outta here, I'm calling the cops!" is enough to send them running.
Not in Vancouver. Home invasions tend to target the elderly, or anyone the offenders suspect might be running a marijuana grow op (there's a lot of 'em). In both situations, the offenders actually intend to target people who are home. As such, shouting "Hey, get the Hell outta here, I'm calling the cops!" will be slightly less effective than shutting your eyes and recessing back to a time when you lacked object permanence. I'm not saying the odds of this happening are high- but I am saying that I'd rather not have a 1 in 50 chance of it happening.
And rape is a crime of hate; it is not a crime of lust. It doens't follow that rapes would be committed by people known to the victim.
As the posters around my campus say, Rape is a Violent Crime committed in a sexual manner. Now a good portion are commited by people the victim knows, but a good portion are also commited by someone the victim does not know.
Edit: Another good point about the elderly. An old person will almost certaintly not have the strength for a physical struggle, yet they will probably still be able to aim a gun and pull the trigger.
Guns level the playing field as far as physical power goes.
IronWarLeg wrote: I saw or read somewhere that one way to see what a knife fight would be like and how badly you will get jacked up, is to:
1. Get a friend who has anger issues
2. Give friend a Giant marker, the ones with a giant chisel tip.
3. Get yourself another marker thats the same size, but make it a different color.
4. Put on a white shirt.
5. Have your friend attack you with his marker and you fend him off with yours.
Any mark on your clothing indicates a spot you were cut, any marks on arms or neck could be a show stopper, dropped knife or cut artery..
Dunno where I saw that at but its an interesting idea, and actually sounds like a bit of fun on a boring afternoon.
But none of that really matters if they shoot you, a la Indiana Jones style.
Anyway I would give that a shot if you wanted to see what knife fighting is all about on a level that you could reasonably expect to face in the event of a robbery.
This really won't help. Given what I know about stress, my personal fighting experience and jujitsu knowledge you aren't learning anything to help you. The way I've learned to disarm someone with a knife, they have to stab at you first and you have to catch them in the act of stabbing at you. The best solution is to not get there in the first place and give them what they want. The way to disarm a gun is to basically be in a stick up situation with the gun inches from you and pray you're fast enough. Again best solution is give them what they want.
Iron was suggesting this as a method to see just how screwed you are in a knife fight, not learn how to disarm a knife.
Oh sorry, I misread it. I guess I got confused with the earlier thing about someone disarming the attacker.
Well, the obvious drawback to a flintlock, is that you cannot leave it loaded, nor can you "preload" the weapon in an emergency.. I mean, if you store it loaded, the weapon will "sweat" which will get your powder wet, and then you'll have what amounts to a fancy club to go after a would be intruder... though it would make a hilarious news story
Well, the obvious drawback to a flintlock, is that you cannot leave it loaded, nor can you "preload" the weapon in an emergency.. I mean, if you store it loaded, the weapon will "sweat" which will get your powder wet, and then you'll have what amounts to a fancy club to go after a would be intruder... though it would make a hilarious news story
But boy would the intruder get it when you finally got it loaded! Just tell them to start at the other side of the house.. I would go with a blunderbus though if it was me personally lol
Alfndrate wrote: I think it has been said that a shotgun is not what you need/want in home defense... Though the sound of one getting ready can help you out...
I think they'd serve as a great teaching tool for not using black powder firearms indoors.
d-usa wrote:I have shot some crappy 1911. Shot my brothers 1911 that he got from Colt after being deployed and it jammed at least once everytime we emptied a mag.
Either that firearm has not been cleaned and cared for, pretty much ever, or else there is a weapon-specific defect in it.
There are a number of failure points in the 1911. Just because it's old and reliable doesn't make it faultless. There are a number of things it could have been, from cheap mags to a protruding slide stop. There's probably a dozen things I could think of off the top of my head.
Yeah jokes aside there's failure points in every weapons system. Certainly odd to here about that kinda serious malfunction from a Colt though. Heck my "junk" Rock Island eats garbage Tula ammo like it's going out of style.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Yeah jokes aside there's failure points in every weapons system. Certainly odd to here about that kinda serious malfunction from a Colt though. Heck my "junk" Rock Island eats garbage Tula ammo like it's going out of style.
RIA 1911s are a heck of a value, from all I've seen and heard about them. If I wasn't a goon who liked to spend way too much money on his pistols, I'd own one, no question.
Captain Fantastic wrote:Colt makes this thing, although it seems a bit frankenstein to me. Plus, 8 rounds is really nothing special. There are better options... Like a Glock.
If you can't do the job in 8, what good is another 5 going to be?
I was busy chortling at some guy at a burger place when I pointed out to my wife his empty holster and empty mag holsters. He had an xd holster and four mag spots 75 rounds. Who is he planning in having a firefight with?
1. Tacticool mall ninja.
2. Someone really nearsighted.
3. An Eagle scout who took "awlays be prepared" to a whole notha level.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Yeah jokes aside there's failure points in every weapons system. Certainly odd to here about that kinda serious malfunction from a Colt though. Heck my "junk" Rock Island eats garbage Tula ammo like it's going out of style.
RIA 1911s are a heck of a value, from all I've seen and heard about them. If I wasn't a goon who liked to spend way too much money on his pistols, I'd own one, no question.
I wouldn't recommend guns at all for home defence, and that not because I work for the UN or anything like that but other posters have pointed out that a shotgun going off in a confined space is likely to mess up your eardrums and leave you dazed. Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc
Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.
Instead of buying a gun for home defence, wouldn't it be better for people to lobby their politicians to tackle the socio-economic problems that result in house-breaking, or is that just wishful thinking?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Instead of buying a gun for home defence, wouldn't it be better for people to lobby their politicians to tackle the socio-economic problems that result in house-breaking, or is that just wishful thinking?
I wouldn't recommend guns at all for home defence, and that not because I work for the UN or anything like that but other posters have pointed out that a shotgun going off in a confined space is likely to mess up your eardrums and leave you dazed. Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc
Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.
I'm curious how many of said posters have actually had to fire a shotgun or a pistol in confined spaces without earpro before.
I have. It's loud. Tweety Bird doesn't appear and start circling around your head. You can still function.
I wouldn't recommend guns at all for home defence, and that not because I work for the UN or anything like that but other posters have pointed out that a shotgun going off in a confined space is likely to mess up your eardrums and leave you dazed. Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc
Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.
I'm curious how many of said posters have actually had to fire a shotgun or a pistol in confined spaces without earpro before.
I have. It's loud. Tweety Bird doesn't appear and start circling around your head. You can still function.
I have done it at an indoor range on accident, it wasnt pleasent, but I wasnt dazed to the point I lost function, I was still able to curse and reach up to put my ear plug back in. If its dark and you shoot inside then you can experience a short blindness from the muzzle flash but it seems people think that the concussion of a shotgun will give you shell shock if fired indoors. With this logic shooting a shotgun at an indoor range would be a painful experience for all involved and no one would do it.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc
Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.
Not sure if serious. I'd much rather have a boomstick than a knife in a home invasion situation. People manage to cut themselves with a knife just bumbling around a kitchen. I'm pretty sure bumbling around in the darkness would be worse.
Besides, I'm pretty sure it takes a lot less to shoot someone than carve them up. I'd also wager it takes less to shoot someone than beat them up. Why do you think kids these days resort to guns instead of just knocking each others lights out?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc.
It's among the most foolish things ITT, twice.
Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.
And well it should not be, and if that's your argument viciously inserting a blade through skin and bone from inches away seems somehow more likely?
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:Instead of buying a gun for home defence, wouldn't it be better for people to lobby their politicians to tackle the socio-economic problems that result in house-breaking, or is that just wishful thinking?
Crime is at an all time low and it's still not uncommon. If there was an easy solution to poverty don't you think someone would have found it by now?
You are all wierdo's.
I do want a full set of gothic armor at some point, for display. But a German styled mounted warhammer and a full metal mace for display/fething around with/ post apocalyptic beat stick.
I wouldn't recommend guns at all for home defence, and that not because I work for the UN or anything like that but other posters have pointed out that a shotgun going off in a confined space is likely to mess up your eardrums and leave you dazed. Show of hands: how many people think leaping out the dark with a knife would probably be more effeective i.e less to think about, instinct, fear, not used to violent situations etc etc
Too look somebody square in the eye and pull the trigger...well...it's not for everybody.
I'm curious how many of said posters have actually had to fire a shotgun or a pistol in confined spaces without earpro before.
I have. It's loud. Tweety Bird doesn't appear and start circling around your head. You can still function.
Yeah second this, it's not like someone hit you with a flash bang, it's just loud. If the noise really worries you you can always invest in a suppressor.
Sure. Let's run with that. I want you to remember though, this is the number you chose. If we go with the numbers from your chart, this gives us 10,000,000 homes. With 8,000 home invasions per day, this gives means on any given day you've got less than 0.01% chance of a home invasion happening.
Now, if we filter out the break-ins that happen when nobody is home, the break-ins where the assailant will flee when confronted, the break-ins to abandoned homes by squatters and kids, and how likely does it seem that you'll get to use that gun to chase away a scary man breaking into your home? Hell, let's reduce it further by concentrating home invasions where they belong: the gakky neighbourhoods, which are over-represented.
Conversely, you're more than twice as likely to be in a car accident. I guess the money spent on your guns would be more efficiently invested in your safety by regular advanced driving courses and better car maintenance. But that doesn't satisfy the primitive reptilian part of your brain, does it? Gotta protect mah propertay, huh?
Sure. Let's run with that. I want you to remember though, this is the number you chose. If we go with the numbers from your chart, this gives us 10,000,000 homes. With 8,000 home invasions per day, this gives means on any given day you've got less than 0.01% chance of a home invasion happening.
Now, if we filter out the break-ins that happen when nobody is home, the break-ins where the assailant will flee when confronted, the break-ins to abandoned homes by squatters and kids, and how likely does it seem that you'll get to use that gun to chase away a scary man breaking into your home? Hell, let's reduce it further by concentrating home invasions where they belong: the gakky neighbourhoods, which are over-represented.
Conversely, you're more than twice as likely to be in a car accident. I guess the money spent on your guns would be more efficiently invested in your safety by regular advanced driving courses and better car maintenance. But that doesn't satisfy the primitive reptilian part of your brain, does it? Gotta protect mah propertay, huh?
I drive a very reliable and well-maintained car. Thanks for your concern, though! Also, your argument is the equivalent of saying that you don't live near a lake, so there's no need to learn to swim. Just because something is unlikely does not mean you should not consider it.
Kaldor wrote:Now, if we filter out the break-ins where the assailant will flee when confronted
Ah, but we won't be filtering these out, as without a proper deterring factor (such as, but not limited to) a firearm, there is no reason to assume that the assailant will flee. And as I've said, it's not wise to take half-measures; nobody should bring a knife to a potential gunfight. So long as the homeowner is practiced with their firearm, and adheres to safe firearms handling procedures, then there is every reason to think that the homeowner with a firearm is the optimal situation in the event that an assailant does break-in whilst the homeowner is present.
Sooo Kaldor I seem to recall you carried a gun every day for more then a couple of years, why? I mean your chances of being involved in a violent altercation are so slim any way, it'd be much more efficient to invest in crisis resolution training.
But that gun and badge do a lot to satisfy the primitive reptilian part of your brain don't they?
A lot of people on this site have military experience, so being thrust into a violent situation is something they have been trained for, and therefore can react accordingly.
The points I made were on behalf of the average joe homeowner who is unlikely to be:
a) military trained
b) used to violence
c) As mentioned earlier, bought his gun, shot it a few times, and stuck it in a box for two years.
d) and being american, fearful of girl scouts selling cookies
Obviously, knives have their pros and cons, but a knife won't jam on you, can be used in a confined space better than a sword (thank you azazel) and as Garek from star trek said: stabbing a man in the back is the safest way
Anybody on this site who is prepared to risk my wrath by breaking into my flat better be prepared to take on an overweight drunk armed with a bread knife and a tin of citadel white primer! So there!
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: A lot of people on this site have military experience, so being thrust into a violent situation is something they have been trained for, and therefore can react accordingly.
The points I made were on behalf of the average joe homeowner who is unlikely to be:
a) military trained
b) used to violence
c) As mentioned earlier, bought his gun, shot it a few times, and stuck it in a box for two years.
d) and being american, fearful of girl scouts selling cookies
Obviously, knives have their pros and cons, but a knife won't jam on you, can be used in a confined space better than a sword (thank you azazel) and as Garek from star trek said: stabbing a man in the back is the safest way
Anybody on this site who is prepared to risk my wrath by breaking into my flat better be prepared to take on an overweight drunk armed with a bread knife and a tin of citadel white primer! So there!
Anyone who's remotely serious about safe and effective self-defense with a firearm will tell you to get training, then more training, and then some training. I've had a fair amount, and I still make an effort to take at least a couple of civilian classes a year. And, for the record, I doubt anyone who heads down to Wally World and picks up a hunting knife is going to be more competent and less a danger to himself and loved ones if he ever has to use that knife in self-defense than the guy who heads down to Bob's Guns and picks up a Jennings .25.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm I might get myself a CZ 75 P-01 or a Rock Island 4" 9mm for Xmas. And considering I can't find anyone stalking RIA...
What are the laws around non-firing/dummy weapons? Can you be arrested for concealed carrying one? I saw someone selling a Colt Python non-firing model (I assume it was evidence or something like that, or confiscated by the ATF) for a good price.
I imagine that you would be arrested without hesitation, since for all intensive purposes, it appears to be a firearm, and even to a trained eye, it couldn't be identified as a "fake" without "unloading" it and observing that there's no firing pin.
At the end of the day, what law would you actually be breaking? I'm not trying to dance around the law or anything, I'm just genuinely curious.
Well if you wave it around you could be arrested for brandishing or something similar. But if you just carry it... and it's not a real gun.... and you don't do ANYTHING but carry it... I don't think you actually can get nailed for anything.
On a side note: here's a defensive pistol engagement.
71 yr old male vs. two 19 yr old males. Winner? Old guy! And we have three angles on the video tape!
Captain Fantastic wrote:What are the laws around non-firing/dummy weapons? Can you be arrested for concealed carrying one? I saw someone selling a Colt Python non-firing model (I assume it was evidence or something like that, or confiscated by the ATF) for a good price.
I imagine that you would be arrested without hesitation, since for all intensive purposes, it appears to be a firearm, and even to a trained eye, it couldn't be identified as a "fake" without "unloading" it and observing that there's no firing pin.
At the end of the day, what law would you actually be breaking? I'm not trying to dance around the law or anything, I'm just genuinely curious.
Your question doesn't have an easy answer. What it really depends on is the action of the person. If you just tuck in your waste and and wander around. And for some reason (let's say stop and frisk since its good and unconstiutional) and it was discovered. No laws are broken. Let's say your playing the adult version of cops and robbers in the park and the cops show up. Rehearsing for a movie NBD.
Rob a gas station with it: ADW, brandishing, criminal endangerment, blah blah.
By itself a rubber gun is a rubber gun. No different than a water pistol or a kids cap gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Somehow I missed the dummy no firing part, and went with a blue gun. If it was carried other than transportation it would likely be treated as a real gun, in areas where firearms ownership or carry is restricted. Otherwise all the other explanations still apply.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Well if you wave it around you could be arrested for brandishing or something similar. But if you just carry it... and it's not a real gun.... and you don't do ANYTHING but carry it... I don't think you actually can get nailed for anything.
On a side note: here's a defensive pistol engagement.
71 yr old male vs. two 19 yr old males. Winner? Old guy! And we have three angles on the video tape!
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Well if you wave it around you could be arrested for brandishing or something similar. But if you just carry it... and it's not a real gun.... and you don't do ANYTHING but carry it... I don't think you actually can get nailed for anything.
On a side note: here's a defensive pistol engagement.
71 yr old male vs. two 19 yr old males. Winner? Old guy! And we have three angles on the video tape!
If you do for some reason end up going with a 1911, realize that they're quite addictive and you will probably end up spending either a lot of time or a lot of money on them. I say 'them' because you will own more than one eventually. I don't even want to think about the cash I'm throwing into a bare-bones Springfield Mil-Spec to turn it into something quite close to the old M45.
Now that I'm looking I've found a bunch of used guns locally. I'm eyeing an auction for an Erma. Which is pretty much the only ppk I'm willing to own other than a true Walther 22.
Seaward wrote: If you do for some reason end up going with a 1911, realize that they're quite addictive and you will probably end up spending either a lot of time or a lot of money on them. I say 'them' because you will own more than one eventually. I don't even want to think about the cash I'm throwing into a bare-bones Springfield Mil-Spec to turn it into something quite close to the old M45.
Old m45? No offense, but that doesn't really mean anything. It's like saying your building a "hacker" computer. The m45 was just a designation for old 1911A1 frames with various additions on them, including enhanced sights, a series 80 trigger (iirc), a grip and a upswept beavertail grip safety, for use with MEUSOC units. Later on, they scraped the old Colt frames and just started converting commercial 1911s, which isn't nearly as cool. Having said that, among the various M45s I've seen, the ones that look like this are really cool.
The new "m45" is kind of silly. Why is it brown? If for some reason it gets dropped in the sand, it's not going to be impossible, but it's going to require a fair bit of effort to find. The grips are ugly, and offer nothing extraordinary.
Sure it does, just depends on which parts list you're using. I'm basing most of mine off the last configuration before the Railgun 'won' the replacement trials.
" as Dad would say) is illegal without a special license for automatic weaponry. There may be semi-auto versions available. They are really really heavy - like 30lb heavy.
). Not to mention that unless you're holding a gun that says Replica and the guy breaking into your house is holding a Desert Eagle point five o, then simply brandishing a gun goes a long way too... Would I shoot someone if it came down to it? I don't know, but would I have the muscle memory to pop a few .22 shots into his chest? Yes, and when you need to react on instinct muscle memory goes a long way.
