I'm talking a real army again, with their own real codex, new models and so on. Ive been waiting years for the sisters of battle to get the attention they deserve. Any word about them? or are they sticking with that White dwarf rules for them now.
I think a huge chunk of the playerbase have spent the last decade waiting for plastic Sisters of Battle since they love the idea of the army but don't want to buy 120 static, mail order only, pewter models to field it.
I just hope with a re-release they dont go overboard with the models like they seem to be doing with most of the re-releases. Its just too clustered and messy, keep them simple, bold and all about cleansing fire. With their future medieval style. We dont need models with tons of bits and charms and stupid comic book style stuff hanging from them.
You are looking at this the wrong way. Look at what we do have over other armies. Why would you want new models? I like the old metals over resin and plastics for many reasons. They have a better center of gravity, they can be restripped easily, they are easier to convert, and when you throw them at your opponent you can do real damage. Try that with a plastic space marine or a resin ork. Plus, we have easy to assemble models. A drop of glue on the base and backpack, and DONE. No more spending weeks on multipart models to get a unit done, no more glue on your fingers, and no more figuring out what to arm your model with. In addition, the average boltgun toting sister only has 3 real poses, with slight variations (bolter angled up, down, or level, helmet or not, etc..). After about 120 or so girls I can now paint sisters like the wind. Another benefit is we, and our opponents, easily know what we are armed with. No guessing. Lets see a mob of orks do that. Plus, we Sisters player have the advantage of surprise. Since our models are harder to find and more expensive, there are fewer of us, and we tend be be hardcore and stubborn. There are usually only 1 or 2 Sisters players at most stores, so no one can accuse us of playing the flavor of the month cookie cutter army. Very few opponents play against us often enough to know all of our surprises. And since we are stubbornly still playing sisters, we have years, if not over a decade (14 years for me) of experience with them. We, on average, tend to be substantially better then most players. Finally, who wants to buy a new codex every few years. I bought one in 98, and another in 06. Toss in a White Dwarf list in 01 and 12, and that's plenty. Besides, we all know that a codex is a crutch for weak players.
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind a new unit or two. I picked up a Forge World Avenger and an Aegis Defense Line. I just don't want to give up all we have for a few new models that probably won't look all that good and still cost way too much.
Rant over. I'm going to take my meds and take a nap until Saturday.
The Sarducci wrote: You are looking at this the wrong way. Look at what we do have over other armies. Why would you want new models? I like the old metals over resin and plastics for many reasons. They have a better center of gravity, they can be restripped easily, they are easier to convert, and when you throw them at your opponent you can do real damage. Try that with a plastic space marine or a resin ork. Plus, we have easy to assemble models. A drop of glue on the base and backpack, and DONE. No more spending weeks on multipart models to get a unit done, no more glue on your fingers, and no more figuring out what to arm your model with. In addition, the average boltgun toting sister only has 3 real poses, with slight variations (bolter angled up, down, or level, helmet or not, etc..). After about 120 or so girls I can now paint sisters like the wind. Another benefit is we, and our opponents, easily know what we are armed with. No guessing. Lets see a mob of orks do that. Plus, we Sisters player have the advantage of surprise. Since our models are harder to find and more expensive, there are fewer of us, and we tend be be hardcore and stubborn. There are usually only 1 or 2 Sisters players at most stores, so no one can accuse us of playing the flavor of the month cookie cutter army. Very few opponents play against us often enough to know all of our surprises. And since we are stubbornly still playing sisters, we have years, if not over a decade (14 years for me) of experience with them. We, on average, tend to be substantially better then most players. Finally, who wants to buy a new codex every few years. I bought one in 98, and another in 06. Toss in a White Dwarf list in 01 and 12, and that's plenty. Besides, we all know that a codex is a crutch for weak players.
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind a new unit or two. I picked up a Forge World Avenger and an Aegis Defense Line. I just don't want to give up all we have for a few new models that probably won't look all that good and still cost way too much.
Rant over. I'm going to take my meds and take a nap until Saturday.
I don't expect a new Codex anytime soon, but let's see what the future holds. Not a fan of the stripped-down WD minidex with its reduced wargear and fluff nerf at all. But for the moment I'm just lucky they are at least back in the limelight a little rather than being a semi-forgotten bunch of minis in the background that a surprising number of people wasn't even aware of.
Sweet Emperor, I still remember the people complaining about Soulstorm because they assumed Relic invented the SoB.
Have to agree with The Sarducci about the minis, tho. I just <3 their designs and their proper weight too much.
When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when a good Hellboy movie is made, when TRI makes games with their own IP once more, shall you have your new sisters.
The real answer is probably never. They've been marketed twice, and apparently never turned enough profit to get further attention. There's a valid argument that they haven't gotten a fair shake in their first outing, but the Necrons didn't either, and they're now one of the biggest factions in the game. The Sisters just never had that "it factor" in the hobby.
I don't know why. But my best guess is that the majority of it is being an army of girls in a hobby that is predominantly male. I also don't think they were sufficiently differentiated from Space Marines. They are basically Space Marines(-), with lower stats, and not as many toys. And since Space Marines are the most popular army in the game by a huge margin, it's easy to see why being negatively compared to Space Marines hurts them more. Some of it is also that their background material paints them into army build types that aren't complimentary to their strengths and weaknesses. I'm not saying that they can't win, and don't have the (apparently) one decent build for 6th. But the Sisters lack the kind of long range firepower that they need to be more flexible, all because their fluff says they like to set stuff on fire.
Ultimately, Games Workshop is a business with a finite amount of assets. Because they can't make everything at once, they have to choose what to make based on profitability. Revamping the entire Sisters of Battle line, like needs to be done, comes with not just a substantial dollar cost, but an opportunity cost. Any assets they use to make new Sisters can't be used to make anything else. What you can take away from this concept, and the fact that Sisters haven't been significantly updated in a long time, is that other armies have been deemed a better use of company assets, and will probably continue to be.
I've suggested this in the past, and it always results in strong negative reactions from dedicated Sisters players, but what the army has needed for a long time is a complete revamping, from the ground up, that takes them away from being the Ladymarines, a job they are unsuited for in both the fluff, and on the tabletop.
I'm sure the usual suspects of Sisters fans/trolls will start to lambast me and my ideas because what I'm saying makes them unhappy. I'm used to that. The funny part is, I have quite a few Sisters of Battle models in my collection. Some of them are incredibly cool looking (I really like the multi-part cannoness with the fur cloak, the hospitaller, and the signum bearer, for example) I've never hated the army itself. I just think Games Workshop has mishandled them as a product and their fluff in the universe. And I also think that a product that has failed twice already isn't going to magically be successful a third time. If Games Workshop is going to make a sizable dollar and time investment in the Sisters by issuing plastics, they're going to want to do it where they can see a return on investment.
The market segment of Sisters players is very small. And it isn't because they don't have plastics. They don't have plastics because their share the sales was small, even when all the armies were almost entirely metal models. If it was any other way, Games Workshop would have made a plastic range for them already. I've heard the argument made that Sisters have been ignored because there's nobody at GW who plays Sisters and will advocate for them. That's not true. The difference is, when somebody who plays a faction like Space Marines, or Imperial Guard, or Orks, or one of the other proven sellers, advocates a product, the risk is much lower, and it is easy to push forward. Sisters represent a higher risk because the fixed costs for introducing models remains more or less the same (paying someone to design the models, then creating the molds, the packaging, the marketing/advertising).
Anyhow. I'm sure this snowballs. Sadly, there are a lot of Sisters players who would rather argue emotionally than take a realistic look at why their army has struggled. And they'll try to take out their pent up rage against Games Workshop on me, lol.
Big compromise here - either keep the WD or get a new Codex with fluff abomination like Uriah the Pimp-Daddy and new units like THUNDERHERETIC CAVALRY.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I've suggested this in the past, and it always results in strong negative reactions from dedicated Sisters players, but what the army has needed for a long time is a complete revamping, from the ground up, that takes them away from being the Ladymarines, a job they are unsuited for in both the fluff, and on the tabletop.
How can they be unsuitable for something "both in the fluff and on the tabletop" if those two things are the only sources of definition? What exactly is it, apart from your personal preferences, that makes them unsuitable as "Ladymarines"?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm sure the usual suspects of Sisters fans/trolls will start to lambast me and my ideas because what I'm saying makes them unhappy. I'm used to that.
I wonder who the "emotional troll" really is when you word your arguments in such a condescending way. Next time, perhaps just post something like "everybody who doesn't agree with me is wrong" - that's conveying the same message in a much less convoluted way.
To actually address the somewhat constructive parts of your post, however, I would say that I am sceptical towards any ideas concerning an excessive remake that destroys the image the current players have grown to like. There is a high risk in losing their existing fans. How would you model the army in a way that it would appeal to a new generation (that also needs to be larger than their existing playerbase), exactly?
Personally, I still think it is chiefly a question of exposure. When you have the army hidden away for years on end (something that has fortunately changed over the past months) then few people will take notice. It's as simple as that. I for one did see a lot of questions about the SoB pop up on dakka since they were made somewhat more prominent. I also saw many comments like "I would play them, but I can't afford the metal minis", so I doubt the pricing argument is entirely without merit, regardless of my own preference for the current minis over potential plastics.
I was told to wait to get Sisters, I agreed, I really wanted that army, but settled for tyranids. then dark eldar, orks, tau, CSM, finally decided to trade/buy the army of my dreams, the one that I wanted from the beginning. Finally got about 4000 points worth now. I've never had as much fun playing 40k, than while playing sisters.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I've suggested this in the past, and it always results in strong negative reactions from dedicated Sisters players, but what the army has needed for a long time is a complete revamping, from the ground up, that takes them away from being the Ladymarines, a job they are unsuited for in both the fluff, and on the tabletop.
How can they be unsuitable for something "both in the fluff and on the tabletop" if those two things are the only sources of definition? What exactly is it, apart from your personal preferences, that makes them unsuitable as "Ladymarines"?
Well, they get consistently slaughtered in the fluff, lol. And they have exactly one build that is viable in 6th Edition, from all reports. And it doesn't even seem like it plays to their strengths, so much as skirts around their disadvantages.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm sure the usual suspects of Sisters fans/trolls will start to lambast me and my ideas because what I'm saying makes them unhappy. I'm used to that.
I wonder who the "emotional troll" really is when you word your arguments in such a condescending way. Next time, perhaps just post something like "everybody who doesn't agree with me is wrong" - that's conveying the same message in a much less convoluted way.
No, I said exactly what I meant to say. People will attack me because they don't like what I say, and not respond to the ideas. It isn't like this topic is new, and hasn't been done before, lol. I know how it goes. I mean, maybe this time people will prove me wrong. But I'm not holding my breath. This happened recently on Warseer when a player asked a similar question. It took exactly two posts before people were taking out their considerable nerd rage against Games Workshop by taking snippy tones with me, one even going so far as to call my opinion "worthless", when he didn't even understand what it was that I was saying. You can only imagine how much fun I had crafting my reply.
In the end though, it's not really about being "right" or "wrong". I understand the emotional investment (well, truthfully, I don't get why, it's just a silly game, but I understand that people get emotionally invested). But the simple fact is that twice Games Workshop has tried to make Sisters sell, and twice it hasn't worked. And I agree there are several schools of thought on why this is so, but ultimately, the business aspect is what it will come down to. They don't work the way they exist. And by don't work, I mean as a product for sale, not as an army. They've gotten exposure in the past. Games Workshop has actually put a fair amount of weight behind the line in the past. And it was done when being an all-metal army wasn't a huge liability like it is today. The state of the Sisters today is the end result of past failures as a product, not the other way around.
I would say that I am sceptical towards any ideas concerning an excessive remake that destroys the image the current players have grown to like. There is a high risk in losing their existing fans.
It's really not to be callous, but the existing player base is irrelevant. They obviously didn't represent a large enough segment to carry the line in the past. Ultimately, whatever changes happen, the existing Sisters will adapt to, or leave the hobby. Either of which is irrelevant to Games Workshop as they need to focus on selling new models, not keeping the existing ones viable. And selling new models means attracting new players. So they need to come up with a concept for the army that grabs a target segment. 40K is heavily derivative. We've got Rambo in Space. Vikings in Space! Anime mecha suit using Utilitarians in Space! Egyptian Terminators in Space! Aliens/Starship Troopers bugs in Space. Crazy religious knight in Space. Lawrence of Arabia in Space. Mad Max in Space. Elves in Space. Dark Elves in Space, etc. Even better than normal Space Marines... in Space! Sisters needs to find a new target niche, if that is possible.
How would you model the army in a way that it would appeal to a new generation (that also needs to be larger than their existing playerbase), exactly?
Good question. Honesty, I'm not sure it can be done. I think, in the end, an all girl army in a male dominated hobby is going to fall victim to passive misogyny without hypersexualization. Plenty of male players will play as girls. But nuns aren't exciting. Even with guns. Look up Sisters on DeviantArt. Most of it lives up to the site's name, lol. Honestly, and I've only half joked about it, but plastic Sisters would be the new hotness because players would buy the kits so they can massacre them. Space Marines impaled on spikes is so 2000. Killing Space Nuns is provocative, and shocking. Well, it isn't. But that's what the strange smelly Chaos player at your FLGS will think when he's tacking them onto banners and tanks, lol.
I've said before I think a full face lift is what is needed. Write a supplement that just completely alters their place in the background, Necron style. Make a Codex: Crazy Religious Nutters on Parade(Crusade)!. Make the Sisters more akin to the Stormtroopers than Marines. It makes more sense with their background (as unmodified humans) in my opinion. I know that's not a popular opinion among Sisters players, but you asked. Then bring back the Frateris Militia, but tier them out too so there can be a variety in troop quality that puts them closer to Guard at the top tier. Give the Sisters some more ranged options. An army full of T3 models reliant on flamethrowers and meltaguns is gonna be shoehorned into some pretty specific builds. Drop the Acts of Faith and Faith points, and bring back something more like the Sacred Rites, that can also whip the supporting cast into a froth too. It makes them into fanatics that fit into the canon, instead of fluff breaking D&D clerics. Again, I know there are people who think that the Acts of Faith make sense, but I heartily disagree, and again, you asked, lol.
People like the Black Templars. So the religious nuttery niche is there. Sisters aren't capturing it. I wonder if perhaps this is because there's already a power armor option for religious nuttery, and it has the advantage of being Space Marines. The Sisters are competing inside their own niche, against the most highly selling model line in the game. It's a significant disadvantage. Taking the Sisters out of the Power Armor army and giving them a (more) unique identity might help. Make the Sisters grittier. I mean, leave the option for the old models to be used (even if it just means pulling the power armor backpacks off; I mean Sisters armor looks no heavier than the Arbites, or Space Marine Scouts). But I'd love to see the Sisters get an entirely new look. Make them bad asses like the Kasrkin models. Less flowy robes and corsets. An army that can be taken seriously. Again, I know that won't be popular with a lot of Sisters players, but you asked. The good news is, the old models won't suddenly vaporize.
Oh, and for God Emperor's sake, get rid of all the silly models. No more Walking Chairs covered in purity seals. No more robot walkers with unarmored people crucified on the front of them (people laughed at the old Eldar War Walker too). No more S&M lumberjack chicks.
Again though, those are just my ideas, as a professional in the marketing field and a hobby enthusiast. They won't appeal to everyone, I know. But I don't think Games Workshop is excited to throw good money after bad, so a facelift may be the only way the Sisters make a return.
I've said before I think a full face lift is what is needed. Write a supplement that just completely alters their place in the background, Necron style. Make a Codex: Crazy Religious Nutters on Parade(Crusade)!. Make the Sisters more akin to the Stormtroopers than Marines
Aside from power armor, how aren't they more like storm troopers? Elite 3 stat units in a better armor that uses flamers/meltas.
I've said before I think a full face lift is what is needed. Write a supplement that just completely alters their place in the background, Necron style. Make a Codex: Crazy Religious Nutters on Parade(Crusade)!. Make the Sisters more akin to the Stormtroopers than Marines
Aside from power armor, how aren't they more like storm troopers? Elite 3 stat units in a better armor that uses flamers/meltas.
Well, for one, they try to pretend to be Space Marines. And that's a problem for two reasons. One I covered, and it is the bigger problem. They share a target segment with Black Templars (religious nutters in power armor), while not being as tough and versatile as Black Templars. And being girls. The other sort of overlaps and has to do with the meta of the game being geared towards killing MEQ armies when they aren't as durable as actual MEQs. But that's besides the point.
I get that people like the Sisters the way they are. That's not what we're discussing here though, personal preferences. The question that was asked by Lynata was how I thought they could possibly be redesigned with a new army look and theme that might offer them a larger player base. I think part of that means distancing them from the Ladymarines image and concept, and especially distancing them from the Space Arsonists army concept. I mean, they can still prefer to set things on fire, and burn the heretics, but also be smart enough to have some lascannon teams. That's why I think you transform them into a more Stormtrooper style force. Give them based heavy weapon teams like the Guard, etc. They can still have the heavy flamers and melta guns and such in their "tactical" squads. You can field Sisters with sniper rifles who are sneaky. Fly them into battle in Vendettas. Really embrace the idea of them as elite Ecclesiarchy shock troops and warrior fanatics, instead of these strange Space Nuns derived from this one rather silly drawing in the Rogue Trader book. They can still be nuns, just without looking so much like nuns, And again, pulling them out of the Power Armor army niche means making the army different than a Space Marine army with boobs and pageboy haircuts.
But with a bolt pistol and a little more feminine looking (not quite so bulky).
Either way, not saying my idea is perfect or it has to be that way. Just giving an example of how you can redo the concept. The Space Nuns didn't work. My thought is you try something new, rather than blindly hope that throwing new money at an old problem will fix it somehow. That never works.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, they get consistently slaughtered in the fluff, lol. And they have exactly one build that is viable in 6th Edition, from all reports. And it doesn't even seem like it plays to their strengths, so much as skirts around their disadvantages.
They get slaughtered depending on which fluff you look at. That's not really "consistent", even though it was certainly enough to make it somewhat of a (sad) running gag.
I do agree about the 5E WD Codex and its weird SC-based army list, though, probably like most Sisters players do... Fortunately, there is a good chance that this temporary setback might be corrected with a proper Codex sometime down the road.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:People will attack me because they don't like what I say, and not respond to the ideas.
From all I've seen in the past, people at times attack you because your posts can be fairly offensive and downright insulting, as a good number of posters have said by now in threads across this forum. In this particular instance, preemptively labeling anyone that does not conform to your opinion as a troll and any opposition as being the result of overemotional attachment is certainly not a good way to start a debate.
I'm not sure if it's any use even touching this point and I certainly do not have a degree in psychology, but if you want people to respond to your posts differently, then write them with a more open attitude. We all have our own opinions, but there are many ways how we can convey them, and trying to enforce one's view with a metaphorical sledgehammer rather than a calm argument usually only works in direct conversation, where charisma and time pressure play a significant role in conversation. Here in a forum, many people spend multiple minutes absorbing a post, thinking it over and carefully weighing their response. Or at least that's how it should work.
As for your thoughts/suggestions ... ehh, "no thanks" would sum up my thoughts, but here I suppose you already correctly guessed that would happen. With their superbly trained human bodies (T3) and high-technology (3+ power armour), they currently occupy a nice niche far above Guard, but not quite Astartes (unless we factor in Acts of Faith). Nudging them down just to reinforce the Space Marines' specialty would merely render them Guard +1, to a point where they could probably even be rolled into their Codex like the Storm Trooper regiment. And whilst this is certainly doable, I don't think this would make them any more popular than, say, Mordian Iron Guard or Catachans. Now, this is just an assumption and I have no numbers to back this up, but I'd expect even the current Sisters to be at least somewhat more prominent than those special regiments.
No, their tech is a necessary requirement to make them last on the battlefield against the beasts they fight. Strip that away and you'd have a horde army like Guard that wins with quantity rather than quality. Might as well field pure Frateris Militia if you just want to throw bodies at the daemon.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It makes them into fanatics that fit into the canon, instead of fluff breaking D&D clerics. Again, I know there are people who think that the Acts of Faith make sense, but I heartily disagree, and again, you asked, lol.
Hmm. I also posted the actual Codex quotes twice in response to this claim, but you keep disregarding that. You could at least make it more clear that it is not GW's fluff that is "broken" this way, but rather your own interpretation or something out of a licensed product...
Veteran Sergeant wrote:People like the Black Templars. So the religious nuttery niche is there. Sisters aren't capturing it. I wonder if perhaps this is because there's already a power armor option for religious nuttery, and it has the advantage of being Space Marines. The Sisters are competing inside their own niche, against the most highly selling model line in the game. It's a significant disadvantage.
The Black Templars quite possible were a mistake by GW, in that they should not have made up an army that challenges the niche of something that is already there ever since the days of Rogue Trader. Especially since the Space Marines are supposed to be all about not being "religious nutters", or so I thought.
Still, it's not like "being dudes" is the only thing that differentiates the BT from SoB. The latter are also fairly unique in that they are all-female, fall somewhere in-between Marines and Guard as far as their stats go, and are the only users of a special game mechanic with their Acts of Faith. Designwise, they also look much more gothic than even the BT, making full use of the Crazy rather than toning it down like the few more "sensible" armies (e. g. Cadians). And lastly, being "just humans", Schola-training and indoctrination aside, also has them leech a little bit of the Guard's underdog theme, which is fairly badass in itself, yet without surrendering the awesome weaponry available to the Space Marines. Some people would call that a cool compromise.
Manchu recently found a neat way of expressing this:
Manchu wrote: I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.
Pure. Badass.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:But I'd love to see the Sisters get an entirely new look. Make them bad asses like the Kasrkin models. Less flowy robes and corsets. An army that can be taken seriously.
Okay, it's obviously a matter of taste / personal preferences - I don't know how many people are playing 40k because it's "serious", though.
Besides, reasonable fanatics sounds a lot like an oxymoron.
Still, thanks for taking the time to draft such a long post, I guess. I can at least appreciate the effort, and it was interesting to hear the thoughts of an outsider (as far as the Sisters are concerned).
I get that people like the Sisters the way they are. That's not what we're discussing here though, personal preferences. The question that was asked by Lynata was how I thought they could possibly be redesigned with a new army look and theme that might offer them a larger player base. I think part of that means distancing them from the Ladymarines image and concept, and especially distancing them from the Space Arsonists army concept. I mean, they can still prefer to set things on fire, and burn the heretics, but also be smart enough to have some lascannon teams. That's why I think you transform them into a more Stormtrooper style force. Give them based heavy weapon teams like the Guard, etc. They can still have the heavy flamers and melta guns and such in their "tactical" squads. You can field Sisters with sniper rifles who are sneaky. Fly them into battle in Vendettas. Really embrace the idea of them as elite Ecclesiarchy shock troops and warrior fanatics, instead of these strange Space Nuns derived from this one rather silly drawing in the Rogue Trader book. They can still be nuns, just without looking so much like nuns, And again, pulling them out of the Power Armor army niche means making the army different than a Space Marine army with boobs and pageboy haircuts.
So you want to get the Sisters away from the ladymarines image by giving them lascannons and sniper teams? I really don't see what you are going for here - the Sisters play nothing like marines as is, and giving them lascannons, snipers and the like just makes them resemble marines more. Giving them 4+ armor just forces you to take what makes the army unique away, while pushing them into a mediocre marine/IG fusion that plays like Space marines (long range army with close range fire support) without the durability that makes that work. As is they play very different from Marines, and despite what you say have several effective builds. Like the Grey Knights before their update, they lack options and models, and thus lack players. That will cease once they get an update, which will happen sooner or later. GW has figured out updating old armies can work for them, and they are working down the list.
Plus, how on earth does the current SoB line look like nuns?
I mean, they can still prefer to set things on fire, and burn the heretics, but also be smart enough to have some lascannon teams. That's why I think you transform them into a more Stormtrooper style force. Give them based heavy weapon teams like the Guard, etc. They can still have the heavy flamers and melta guns and such in their "tactical" squads. You can field Sisters with sniper rifles who are sneaky. Fly them into battle in Vendettas. Really embrace the idea of them as elite Ecclesiarchy shock troops and warrior fanatics, instead of these strange Space Nuns derived from this one rather silly drawing in the Rogue Trader book.
So instead of Space Marines..You just want them to be Imperial guard? That doesn't exactly help them at all, except for being pushed into the IG book for being as bland and insurmountable IG is. To be fairly honest your opinions don't seem to be rather an idea to fix them, but to generally push them more towards being IG with all 4+ saves. Something that's more of a style you prefer than an actual fix.
Plus, how on earth does the current SoB line look like nuns?
ZebioLizard2 wrote:So instead of Space Marines..You just want them to be Imperial guard? That doesn't exactly help them at all, except for being pushed into the IG book for being as bland and insurmountable IG is.
Quite a lot of Marine players dislike having to "share" the elite status with the Sisters. Just look at the Deathwatch RPG forum, where people rejoice at FFG "finally" establishing a firm distinction between them - so much so that even their bolters do less damage.
Now, I'm not saying that this was his intention from the start, but given the "truescale" Marine avatar and army, I have to admit I'm suspicious.
Hollowman wrote:Plus, how on earth does the current SoB line look like nuns?
Now, there I'd have to side with him. Granted, it's not a straight 1:1 look, but they do wear robes under the armour and carry religious iconography.
Even in the real world there's not one specific look for "nun".
Now, I'm not saying that this was his intention from the start, but given the "truescale" Marine avatar and army, I have to admit I'm suspicious.
Seeing as he often posts exactly like this in any area regarding sisters in this sort of topic in the exact same tone of voice. It's rather typical at this point.
Plus, how on earth does the current SoB line look like nuns?
I have no honest clue myself, Compare
to
First I have to say, I'd happily go to hell to get in the middle of that sandwich
And second, I reckon they'd look pretty cool if they were more nun-ish. I'm picturing a Dark Angel type hood with their faces exposed and like hair flowing out or something. That'd be awesome! I've been thinking about having a small SoB force as allies to my wolves but I want to find a way to give them a fur cloak or scarf or something.
I have no opinion towards the rest of the thread beyond that. Please resume your debating!
I feel the Sisters should shift more to the Ecclesiarchy, and expanding how priests/inquisitors interact with the sisters themselves. Go full gothic on new units tying in with that theme.
I've always thought the Sisters ran mostly as escort/shocktroops, rather than full-fledged armies like the Guard, mostly because even more than Marines they lack sufficient presence in the galaxy to mount full campaigns on their own.
There wasn't a lot of us Daemonhunters-players before Codex: Grey Knights, now there's loads (which is good, don't get me wrong). Same thing probably applies to Sisters; I know I'd play them if they had an accessible Codex and didn't cost a small fortune.
That and GW fethed up the allies matrix so my Templars and any Sisters I'd ally in wouldn't work very well, which is a shame.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The real answer is probably never. They've been marketed twice, and apparently never turned enough profit to get further attention. There's a valid argument that they haven't gotten a fair shake in their first outing, but the Necrons didn't either, and they're now one of the biggest factions in the game. The Sisters just never had that "it factor" in the hobby.
Not a valid parallel when the Necrons got plastics the second time around. SOB have no plastics besides the borrowed tanks. If by the "it factor" you mean, a box set of troop choices which don't cost as much as several characters, then yeh they don't have the "it factor".
The it factor is more the factor that while the basic troops are reasonable (3 in a blister), everything else is single models for as much or more as the 3 basic troopers.
Trying to get enough special weapons/sergeants/etc.. to flesh out the squads is where the big hurt lies.
Even back when they sold the boxes in the shops they were useless. Still had to buy a model (or convert) to be your VSS, then a Heavy Flamer and a Melta Gun from elsewhere. Add in a Rhino and you were talking 50-60 for a single 209 point Troop choice... I can't even imagine how much they cost now.
Sisters are not Grenadiers or Storm Troopers. They are Sisters of Battle, the most elite fighting force the Imperium can muster, outside of the Astartes themselves.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The real answer is probably never. They've been marketed twice, and apparently never turned enough profit to get further attention. There's a valid argument that they haven't gotten a fair shake in their first outing, but the Necrons didn't either, and they're now one of the biggest factions in the game. The Sisters just never had that "it factor" in the hobby.
Not a valid parallel when the Necrons got plastics the second time around. SOB have no plastics besides the borrowed tanks. If by the "it factor" you mean, a box set of troop choices which don't cost as much as several characters, then yeh they don't have the "it factor".
The Necrons got plastics the second time around because the metals sold the first time around.
And no, by "it factor" I mean whatever "it" is that makes a product popular and sell. When the Sisters were first released, all armies were metal. The plastics for Space Marines were either 2 part mono-pose, or these rather uninspired multi-parts. But they were the only army at that point with plastic troops aside from the mono-pose Orks and Gretchen. Blaming the failure of Sisters on not having plastics is a flawed argument. They don't sell now (and over the last six or seven years) because they don't have plastics. But they don't have plastics because fifteen years ago, when they were originally released, they didn't sell enough models either.
This idea that Sisters would sell well if they had plastics is based on faulty logic. Where were these Sisters buyers when a Sisters army cost more or less the same as any other army? They didn't exist then. So yeah, while there might be a small minority of players who "would buy Sisters if they had plastics", it's likely not much larger than the demographic who originally didn't buy enough Sisters back in 96-98. That's how GW is going to see it. They offered the product on more or less equal terms, and it didn't sell well. They re-offered the product a few years later with an expanded range when it was only at a slight disadvantage (2003), just to see if the interest was there to justify the expense on a range of plastics, and the sales numbers obviously didn't meet their expectations for a proper return on investment.
Stop comparing what the Sisters are like now. What the Sisters model range looks like today, in terms of price and lack of support is due to events that happened from 1997-2004(or so). Everybody understand why very few players want to invest in the Sisters of Battle now. They're expensive, they don't have a good range of figures, they don't have a proper codex, and the one they do have is expensive and difficult to find.
The answer to your problem is looking at why they don't have a good range of models. And that's because, long in the past, they didn't sell well enough as an army to justify the cost of converting them to expensive plastic molds.
The point is the second time around for Necrons, they got plastics. When Witchunters came out SOB were still metal. The only other army at that time which was predominantly metal were Daemonhunters. So no they haven't had a fair crack of the whip in the plastic era.
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Big compromise here - either keep the WD or get a new Codex with fluff abomination like Uriah the Pimp-Daddy and new units like THUNDERHERETIC CAVALRY.
I agree - there was a constant Dark Edlar are gone, Dark Eldar are not popular enough to be re made, Dark Eldar will be rolled into the Eldar Codex for years and years......
oh and then they redid them and found it was a gold mine
Look back at the older models and see what they did with them to make them shiny and new. The Dark Eldar models were just not great as they aged - I still have loads and even use them as I like the mindset that they are disposable as the actual Dark Eldar (they will get revived)
Now the Sisters models I am happy with but they could be much more.
Sisters has every chance of happening and being a huge money maker.................
On a serious note, Sisters have 3 major problems on the table. First, they are power armored and compared to space marines, and they are not. Dark Angels, Black Templers, etc.., have a similar problem. But they are specialized enough to make them a valid different army. Sisters don't appear (to most gamers) to be anything else than a power armored gaurd army. Which leads to the second major problem. The sisters are not (perceived) as a long range or a close combat army. In general, this is true. Their strength is in the very short range shooty army. Flamers, meltas, and bolters are best here. In close combat, the sisters are weak against most armies, so this is a very difficult balance to maintain. Space Marines do not have this problem, they can shoot up close and still assault or be assaulted and do well. This leads to the third problems, subtlety. Sisters are a very subtle army, they require finesse to play well. You cannot see finesse, it is an intangible. Experienced sisters players, or all players really, can play two or three moves ahead. With acts of faith, a sisters squad can be greatly enhanced. Most people prefer instant gratification, and not long term satisfaction.
I won't say I like the WD codex. I don't. But I also don't dislike it. The Witch Hunter Codex put too much emphasis on the Inquisition. The 2001 WD Codex was probably the best. Simple, straightforward, and focused on the Sisters. GW needs to go back to that core to get players back. Plastic sisters and a new codex won't get new players. A good codex will, irregardless of models. Especially if it focus's on the Sisters, Faith, and Religious Zeal and less (not none) on the Ecclessiarchy and the Inquisition. Good models will also help, but any new unit/models must be appropriate to the army.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:So instead of Space Marines..You just want them to be Imperial guard? That doesn't exactly help them at all, except for being pushed into the IG book for being as bland and insurmountable IG is.
Quite a lot of Marine players dislike having to "share" the elite status with the Sisters. Just look at the Deathwatch RPG forum, where people rejoice at FFG "finally" establishing a firm distinction between them - so much so that even their bolters do less damage.
See, this is exactly the kind of strawman BS and credibility attacks that you always resort to. And then you wonder why I preemptively call you out as a troll.
Are you kidding me? And here I was trying to be nice. Yeah, I have a true scale Space Marine army. I barely play the tabletop part of 40K anymore. I just like the modeling side of the hobby more than the game, and Space Marines have a ton of opportunities for modeling because they are plastic. I also have a large themed Imperial Guard army that has Sisters in (as proxies for Stormtroopers and other carapace armor models), as well as a sizable Tyranid collection. In fact, the Imperial Guard and Tyranids were always my favorites. I played Orcs in Fantasy back in the day, and Middenheimers in Mordeheim, and Van Saar in Necromunda. By all means, please let me know how you can attack my credibility with those facts at hand.
What a complete joke you are. I was actually halfway through compiling a pleasant reply to you when I saw this crap.
You problem is that you get so wrapped up in your own opinions, that you forget that everything is subjective and that others have opinions too. Attacking the opinions of others, which you very consistently do with me, is what causes the kinds of negative responses you receive from me. Why is that? Because I don't suffer fools and I enjoy a good written lashing because it amuses me to write them. But I never attack first. I said, very plainly, that I understand that people like the Sisters the way they are, and that I have no problem with the Sisters the way they are. What I understand, again with the marketing background I have, which I was nice enough to tell you I have so you didn't have an excuse to misconstrue what I said, is that the Sisters have not sold in their current form. Then you asked me what I thought might work. I then, with careful caveat, gave an idea of what I felt was the problem for Sisters as a product, not as an army (again which I was careful to say so that you have no excuse to misconstrue it), was that, aside from passive misogyny, they were competing inside their own niche with Black Templars. My one suggested solution which you asked for, was perhaps that if the Sisters get pulled out of that conflict (sharing a space with a Space Marines army), they might generate appeal as a collectable army.
I did not say, nor imply, that I felt the Sisters shouldn't occupy the space that they do. I just said that they don't sell models the way they currently are. And they don't get supported very significantly because of it. Of course, I feel like it is my fault that I only have said that maybe a half a dozen times, in this thread alone.
Look I get that the fact that Games Workshop's lack of support for Sisters makes you unhappy. But that's no excuse for you to childishly do exactly what I said you were going to do, which was attack me as a proxy for your pent up angst and anger at Games Workshop. You have a lot of this rage, which you take out in passive aggressive, and sometimes outright aggressive, ways on other people on the forum. And then you stare about incredulously when people like me throw the BS flag at you.
So you want to get the Sisters away from the ladymarines image by giving them lascannons and sniper teams?
So instead of Space Marines..You just want them to be Imperial guard?
I don't "want" anything.
Are either of you actually reading my posts? Is the complete text only displaying for me, and the rest of you only see truncated versions?
The question was asked how I thought they could be revamped to create new demand for the product. I even said that may not even be the answer, because I'm not even convinced that they are a viable product at all. All I know is that they didn't sell very well the way they are, after two tries. You can have whatever opinion of why that is, but it still is.
Ultimately though, sharing some overlap in space with Imperial Guard is a far better thing than sharing a space with Space Marines. Space Marines are all consuming. They are Games Workshop's flagship product. What the other armies do is grab the remaining portion of the 40K market that isn't Space Marines.
The point is the second time around for Necrons, they got plastics. When Witchunters came out SOB were still metal. The only other army at that time which was predominantly metal were Daemonhunters. So no they haven't had a fair crack of the whip in the plastic era.
You're still not understanding that there is a causal relationship here. This Sisters didn't get plastics because they didn't sell as metal. The Necrons got plastics because they did.
It isn't about whether or not they've gotten a "fair" chance at plastic. They haven't. But fair doesn't have anything to do with it. Conversion to a plastic line costs a tremendous amount of money. Which means there is a significant initial investment in the product. If the Sisters haven't gotten plastics in the last fifteen years, it's because the numbers don't add up to make the Sisters projected to be profitable enough to justify the opportunity cost and the financial cost, of issuing a new line.
Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.
You're still not understanding that there is a causal relationship here. This Sisters didn't get plastics because they didn't sell as metal. The Necrons got plastics because they did.
It isn't about whether or not they've gotten a "fair" chance at plastic. They haven't. But fair doesn't have anything to do with it. Conversion to a plastic line costs a tremendous amount of money. Which means there is a significant initial investment in the product. If the Sisters haven't gotten plastics in the last fifteen years, it's because the numbers don't add up to make the Sisters projected to be profitable enough to justify the opportunity cost and the financial cost, of issuing a new line.
Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.
This is the same ole tired arguments there were repeated for years, ad nausem, for Dark Eldar. Exactly, the same.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.
This is aimed at me? WTF. Do you have the ability to have a rational discussion without resorting to petty character attacks? If anyone is going to do that it should be towards yourself in question of why you care about this issue so much as to deepstrike into a thread about it and start your 'here's why I hate SOB' tirade. You did the same thing on this thread over at Warseer. What is it about the SOB that makes you so enthralled to rant about why they shouldn't get another codex?
You're still not understanding that there is a causal relationship here. This Sisters didn't get plastics because they didn't sell as metal. The Necrons got plastics because they did.
It isn't about whether or not they've gotten a "fair" chance at plastic. They haven't. But fair doesn't have anything to do with it. Conversion to a plastic line costs a tremendous amount of money. Which means there is a significant initial investment in the product. If the Sisters haven't gotten plastics in the last fifteen years, it's because the numbers don't add up to make the Sisters projected to be profitable enough to justify the opportunity cost and the financial cost, of issuing a new line.
Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.
This is the same ole tired arguments there were repeated for years, ad nausem, for Dark Eldar. Exactly, the same.
Except here's the problem, and why your comparison to the Dark Eldar are irrelevant. And probably what makes you think this is something repeated.
We don't have any of the sales figures. We only know that the Dark Eldar got new plastics at some point. So they apparently justified the cost. In fact, they got plastics twice. The first time was sheer luck. They got introduced right as Games Workshop was transitioning to plastic armies. In that way, yeah, the Dark Eldar and the Tau had an "unfair" advantage over the Sisters perhaps. But them's the breaks. Ultimately, the Sisters didn't sell enough to get plastics. You can't argue with that, because it didn't happen. Every other army in the game has gotten plastics at least once. Some of them more than once. Heck, there have been four new entire armies added to 40K in the mean time. And they all got plastics for some reason.
What you're missing, and again, I've tried to make this crystal clear, is that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. Look, Games Workshop either functions like a business, or it doesn't. Some of you think GW is still run like a hobby in somebody's back yard shed. It isn't. It runs on numbers. Which is why the models keep getting more expensive, and have scheduled price increases ahead of inflation, lol. There are people on the back end, shareholders some might call them in this crazy world of business, who ask questions when profits aren't returned at the projected rate. So if Sisters were believed to be profitable, they would get new models. But they haven't. It's been ten years almost, since Codex: Witch Hunters, which wasn't even about the Sisters of Battle at all anyway. A Witch Hunters army didn't need a single Sister of Battle in it, lol. That should tell you all you need to know. But it won't. I know better than to assume the implication is clear to everyone.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Again, I understand that this fact makes you unhappy. Stop attacking the business logic behind it. And definitely stop attacking me as a proxy for your angst and rage against Games Workshop. It makes you look foolish.
This is aimed at me? WTF. Do you have the ability to have a rational discussion without resorting to petty character attacks? If anyone is going to do that it should be towards yourself in question of why you care about this issue so much as to deepstrike into a thread about it and start your 'here's why I hate SOB' tirade. You did the same thing on this thread over at Warseer. What is it about the SOB that makes you so enthralled to rant about why they shouldn't get another codex?
Where did I once say they should not get another Codex? Point it out. Please. I would love to see it.
The problem in that thread at Warseer, which is the same problem here, is that Sisters fans get way, way, way too emotionally invested in the argument, and begin attacking me as the source.
If you make a reply to my post, which was a reply to your post, that clearly demonstrates that you are avoiding the topic, what else am I to assume you mean?
I am presenting the even keeled analysis of why the Sisters haven't gotten a new codex or new models. You guys seem to want to turn that into an opinion. Please, again, find one place in this thread where I have said the Sisters houldn't get a new Codex because I don't like the army? Again, I'd love to see it.
The problem is, just like on Warseer, I get a bunch of petty, angry people like you who cannot divest themselves emotionally from the discussion, and instead take what I say as some personal attack against them, when we're discussing tiny metal toy soldiers.
Get a grip and grow up. Again, I ask that you stop using me as a proxy for your anger about the Sisters not getting new models. It's not dignified, and it makes you look foolish.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Anyhow. I'm sure this snowballs. Sadly, there are a lot of Sisters players who would rather argue emotionally than take a realistic look at why their army has struggled. And they'll try to take out their pent up rage against Games Workshop on me, lol.
I'd say that I hate being right all the time. But I don't. It's pretty awesome.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The real answer is probably never. They've been marketed twice, and apparently never turned enough profit to get further attention. There's a valid argument that they haven't gotten a fair shake in their first outing, but the Necrons didn't either, and they're now one of the biggest factions in the game. The Sisters just never had that "it factor" in the hobby.
Not a valid parallel when the Necrons got plastics the second time around. SOB have no plastics besides the borrowed tanks. If by the "it factor" you mean, a box set of troop choices which don't cost as much as several characters, then yeh they don't have the "it factor".
Glorioski wrote: The point is the second time around for Necrons, they got plastics. When Witchunters came out SOB were still metal. The only other army at that time which was predominantly metal were Daemonhunters. So no they haven't had a fair crack of the whip in the plastic era.
If from the above two posts Veteran Seageant you can put me down as a "agnst filled", "foolish", GW hater who is raging about Sisters not getting new models and needs to "get a grip". I should be qualified to say that you said you think the SOB shouldn't get a new codex. That seems like the level of discussion you want to have.
Sorry if the truth makes you unhappy. Don't get mad at me over it, lol.
Firstly I shall point out that the reason you get "trolled" is because you're a huge fething dick. You look down at people from your high horse and try to use faulty logic to make yourself feel bigger than them. You're not. This is the Internet and you're nobody, like the rest of us.
That aside, I will reply to your points. We have no evidence that Necrons sold well before their codex. As you mentioned earlier in relation to the Dark Eldar we have no sales figures. Secondly unless my memory is getting dodgy I seem to remember the Sisters codex came out in the dusk of 2nd Ed, right before the transition to 3rd. After this it was a very long time until they received their WD book, and even longer until they received Codex: WH, and the still with the same old product line (more or less). So it's very fair to say thy didn't have the same help that the Necrons had, as the first time they were marketed properly they had plastic kits.
Very unlikely imo. Extremely small interest in SoB over all => very low potential financial gain + GW's current policy of releasing stuff that does not need a new release (in WHFB that is) = rather pick another army.
Acting rudely and condescendingly tends to piss people off. You may want to dial the superior tone back a bit if you want people to take you seriously.
Back on topic, Grey Knights were all metal and just as old as Codex: Witch Hunters and yet Grey Knights sold incredibly well.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is exactly the kind of strawman BS and credibility attacks that you always resort to. And then you wonder why I preemptively call you out as a troll.
If you think this is a strawman, visit the FFG forums and see for yourself. The vocal majority has been fairly clear in where they believe Astartes should be, and have expressed quite a lot of approval for this version of the setting. So there definitively seems to be a part of the playerbase that is convinced that there needs to be a huge gap between Marines and anyone else, that only Marines deserve the "epic". Obviously, it does not apply to every Space Marine player (fortunately), but you should not act surprised when this fact is mentioned in a discussion concerning a nerf to the Sisters' standing in GW's world.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:By all means, please let me know how you can attack my credibility with those facts at hand.
Intuition and personal experience. The same thing you used to attack anyone elses credibility here that dares to disagree with your assessment of the situation, before anyone was even able to reply to your post. To me, your credibility was already cracked once you started complaining about Acts of Faith back then in another thread, ignoring the actual Codex quotes I posted and continueing to misrepresent the fluff, and then resorted to insults claiming I would have "no idea what I am talking about" and that I would not "read your posts".
No, you will not be able to claim a monopoly on unbiased analysis here. We are all biased somewhere, including you. And you would not spend so much time posting in threads like these if you did not have some sort of stake in the topic.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:You problem is that you get so wrapped up in your own opinions, that you forget that everything is subjective and that others have opinions too. Attacking the opinions of others, which you very consistently do with me, is what causes the kinds of negative responses you receive from me. Why is that? Because I don't suffer fools and I enjoy a good written lashing because it amuses me to write them. But I never attack first. [...] And then you stare about incredulously when people like me throw the BS flag at you.
This thread proves differently. As do your posts in the past. You know what? I have problems communicating with exactly three people on this forum. One of them seems to be you, and another one is a fellow Sisters player. You, however, are catching a lot more flak from other dakkanauts than I do in a lot more threads, and not just from the Sisters fanbase. I really don't know what else to say other than once more advising to look for the reasons for this - and not just looking at other people.
But I'll let this discourse rest, as surely it will lead to nowhere. I felt compelled to post a reply to your initial statement since it looked like a lot of time went into it, yet I thought it could not agree with many of its contents. Now that I've said my piece about that as well as the OP's initial post I can just as well drop out.
Feel free to post another reply, though - even though I won't post again I will continue reading this thread, so if you have some last feedback ...
Sorry if the truth makes you unhappy. Don't get mad at me over it, lol.
Firstly I shall point out that the reason you get "trolled" is because you're a huge fething dick. You look down at people from your high horse and try to use faulty logic to make yourself feel bigger than them. You're not. This is the Internet and you're nobody, like the rest of us.
At what point was I a dick in this thread? I'd love to see it. Aside from pointing out that at some point, the argument would get emotional and people would start attacking me?
That's just the truth. You guys could have proved me wrong, then I'd look like a huge fething dick, as you so eloquently put it. But even you, with your very first post, proved I was right. /shrug
Don't get me wrong. I don't care about being "trolled". Like you said, we're all nobodies. But I'll happily point out that in the end, it's like the original ending to "I am Legend". You spend the whole time fighting me, thinking I am the troll, but in the end, you realize that you are the trolls yourselves.
So it's very fair to say thy didn't have the same help that the Necrons had, as the first time they were marketed properly they had plastic kits.
But then again, it's also fair to say that whatever happened when they were marketed "improperly", it influenced Games Workshop to make the additional investment.
Here's the final question. Why are the Sisters the exception? If when every other time, Games Workshop put the effort in, they managed to make an army successful, why haven't they done it with the Sisters of Battle? Why are they different? I mean, it seems to be a no-brainer, the way you put it. Give the Sisters plastic models: instant cash flow. Who is the apparently complete moron over there at GWHQ who keeps redlighting the project, and why? Why's he sitting on this gold mine and what would surely be a huge bonus for being the genius to make it happen?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: This idea that Sisters would sell well if they had plastics is based on faulty logic. Where were these Sisters buyers when a Sisters army cost more or less the same as any other army? They didn't exist then. So yeah, while there might be a small minority of players who "would buy Sisters if they had plastics", it's likely not much larger than the demographic who originally didn't buy enough Sisters back in 96-98. That's how GW is going to see it. They offered the product on more or less equal terms, and it didn't sell well. They re-offered the product a few years later with an expanded range when it was only at a slight disadvantage (2003), just to see if the interest was there to justify the expense on a range of plastics, and the sales numbers obviously didn't meet their expectations for a proper return on investment.
Stop comparing what the Sisters are like now. What the Sisters model range looks like today, in terms of price and lack of support is due to events that happened from 1997-2004(or so). Everybody understand why very few players want to invest in the Sisters of Battle now. They're expensive, they don't have a good range of figures, they don't have a proper codex, and the one they do have is expensive and difficult to find.
The answer to your problem is looking at why they don't have a good range of models. And that's because, long in the past, they didn't sell well enough as an army to justify the cost of converting them to expensive plastic molds.
Look, we know they are working on new Sisters. Trustworthy rumor mongers such as Phil Kelly have stated as much. What we do not know is why it took them so long, whatever you might surmise on the subject.
The fact is, the original SoB line was small compared to the other lines. It came out at a time where female based armies were even less common (and desired) than today, and look to have sold about as well as the old Grey Knights line. Like the grey knights, a major limiting factor in their expansions seems to be that GW just wasn't sure what to do with them - that is different from them not having the sales to move forward. Mashing them both in with the Inquisition was a stop gap. What GW should do, and is doubtless working on doing, is making the SoB range more distinct. I don't see any way that could, or should, involve making them into either 4+ IG or long range fighters. Keeping their current tactical focus and expanding the line to include more options should work just fine.
Which is exactly what they did with GK (and Dark Eldar), and that worked like gangbusters.
We have had Dakka Rule 1, 2 and 3 violations in here so far, have issued warnings where appropriate. Please get back on topic and concentrate on the conversation at hand. Try to be polite and remember disagreeing with a post is fine, targeting the poster in a negative way because you disagree is not.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:See, this is exactly the kind of strawman BS and credibility attacks that you always resort to. And then you wonder why I preemptively call you out as a troll.
If you think this is a strawman, visit the FFG forums and see for yourself. The vocal majority has been fairly clear in where they believe Astartes should be, and have expressed quite a lot of approval for this version of the setting
But I have never once said anything of the sort.
You're using it to attack my credibility and character without any evidence. Yeah, that's a Strawman.
. To me, your credibility was already cracked once you started complaining about Acts of Faith back then in another thread, ignoring the actual Codex quotes I posted and continueing to misrepresent the fluff,
Here's the problem. You don't remember what actually happened in that thread. I never said that it contravened the fluff in the codex. I said the fluff in the codex contravenes the established canon in a way that doesn't make sense, in my opinion. Yes, it was written, which makes it so. I just said I felt is was poorly written. This is isn't an issue of credibility. This is difference in opinion. Which I allowed that we could have a difference on.
Please explain, despite the fact that we disagree on the quality of that writing, where it is even relevant to my credibility when discussing the viability of the Sisters as a product line. Good lord.
No, you will not be able to claim a monopoly on unbiased analysis here. We are all biased somewhere, including you. And you would not spend so much time posting in threads like these if you did not have some sort of stake in the topic.
The guy asked a question. I gave an answer. You didn't like the answer, so you attacked me instead of the answer. The better question to ask is, why do you have so much staked in plastic toy soldiers on an unofficial forum that you will behave so immaturely? Is it because you enjoy provoking me? I mean, I can see that. The good news is, I like being provoked because I always win because I'm better prepared. But really, the logic chain has a few missing links here.
You, however, are catching a lot more flak from other dakkanauts than I do in a lot more threads
This is pretty easy to explain. It's because I'm okay with having unpopular opinions, and I am much better at formulating written arguments than other people. People don't like to run up against other people that are smarter than them on topics they think they are experts on. And they hate losing. So, naturally, they get upset with me. It's natural. I'm used to it. When you're a six foot tall, educated professional who was also a Marine, you intimidate all of the people who just hoped you would be another dumb jarhead. I break the conventions that a lot of people who build their perceptions of the world on. I'm stronger, faster, and smarter. /shrug. Again, it sounds arrogant. But in reality, it's just the way it is. Right now, there's some guy reading these sentences and already getting all mad and pouty and trying to concoct some clever reply about how much of an arrogant jerk I am.
I'm also a perfect storm of knowledge. I have an educational background in English (written expression) and Marketing (which is economics and psychology). Plus, I was a Marine, so I know warfare and weapons. And, on top of that, I have been around this hobby since the early 90s so I know the fluff really well, especially the old stuff that all of the modern fluff is built on. Good lord. Why would you even bother poking me with a stick? You know, right away, that you're outmatched, in almost all categories, because I am nice enough to give my background as a heads up. it's not arrogance. It's just the reality. I don't know everything. I don't go onto architecture forums and argue that buildings won't stand if somebody there says they would. I don't claim to be the Boss of Sisters and Sisters Fluff. My opinion on the Acts of Faith comes from a hobbyist perspective, just as your opinion stems from your perspective. And I've never denied you it. You, on the other hand, have tried really, really hard to deny me my opinion, on multiple occasions. That's what gets you treated somewhat brusquely by me. If I present an opinion, and you rail at me and call me wrong, that's a pretty aggressive stance. And I'm really good at aggressive, so pick your battles carefully. A better way to approach it is "I'd rather it be like this", or "I like it the way it is". Or, if you truly think my argument is built on faulty logic (with the Acts of Faith, it is not), then feel free to debate it. The problems that you and Melisia have is that you get too aggressive, and overstep the bounds of where you have any kind of evidential support. I'm very keen when that happens, and I'll point it out. I write very carefully. It's important to take the text as a whole, because like I said above, you apparently don't even remember what my argument actually was in that thread, and you've been making incorrect assumptions that influence your behavior ever since then.
Regardless, this discussion about business practices, not fluff. And I'm pretty well versed on the topic. When the arguments against mine aren't built on things that make any business sense, why do you wonder if I am skeptical of that analysis?
I thought it could not agree with many of its contents.
The thing is, from the start, I acknowledged that we have differences of opinion on the fluff. Notice I make no posts in Sisters fluff topics anymore. I've learned that people refuse to have reasonable, civil discussions, and that almost invariably leads me to be uncivil because I'm so much better at it than everyone else. I used to write and publish social satire. You think making fun of poorly constructed forum posts even causes me to break a mental sweat? Of course not. So, I just let you guys have your little threads because it's not worth the protracted argument that inevitably leads to hurt feelings, which somehow become my fault.
It saddens me that there is always at least one poster who ruins every Sisters thread. The names change, but the behavior never does. :(
Back on topic though, Sisters have a ways to go. I expect them to be updated no earlier than 2014. I strongly doubt that they will be squatted.
edit: For an educated professional with excellent everything, you sure have a hard time communicating without ticking people off, VS. Maybe tone it down a little bit.
pretre wrote:edit: For an educated professional with excellent everything, you sure have a hard time communicating without ticking people off, VS. Maybe tone it down a little bit.
I communicate with people all the time on this forum. Heck, I've been given all kinds of ridiculously positive feedback in the P&M forum, and had people say they were excited to see my feedback because they enjoy my plog so much. Heck, I don't even think they're that good, I just have fun building them, and will always deflect any praise back to the really, really good modelers and painters in this hobby. I just understand what kind of poses I think a model "should" have, and figure out how to achieve them.
Plus I write a ton of useful feedback, and tutorials, and give people ideas how to achieve their posing options.
But you know why there is a differential between Background and P&M Blogs? In P&M, people post rationally, not emotionally. This forum seems to elicit emotional outbursts. And I won't lie, I don't have much respect for emotional people, or stupid people. And I really don't like emotional stupid people, lol.
If people come at me aggressively, like they typically do when they get caught up being emotionally invested in plastic toys, they're going to get back worse than what they are capable of giving. I'm really good at being a jerk if you give me a reason to be. And I find it kinda fun. Sometimes I restrain myself better than other times. I've been a pretty reasonable dude today, in the face of a lot of very rude posts.
And the funny part? If I troll them back, I'm the bad guy. If I point out how they are being rude, suddenly I'm crying about being treated poorly, when in reality, I'm just restraining myself from turning the thread into a smoking wasteland.
See? That's what I'm talking about. You're just being (un)intentionally abrasive and arrogant. We are quite clear on your ability to lay waste to all of us at a moment's notice. You have made it clear in this and many other threads. Let it go.
I'm pleased that you have great success in the P&M forum. Perhaps look to your success there to inform your success in other parts of the forum. I can tell you right now that your current tactic is not working well.
Perhaps, if that doesn't work, try refraining from posting in topics that you think may have a negative response to your posting.
pretre wrote: It saddens me that there is always at least one poster who ruins every Sisters thread. The names change, but the behavior never does. :(
Back on topic though, Sisters have a ways to go. I expect them to be updated no earlier than 2014. I strongly doubt that they will be squatted.
edit: For an educated professional with excellent everything, you sure have a hard time communicating without ticking people off, VS. Maybe tone it down a little bit.
I feel that marines players sometimes feel threaten by sisters of battle.
Hopeful sisters will get an update soon, in the mean time I'm going to work on my homebrew codex.
As for when they will get a real codex, I have sources (but not reliable ones) that say this year or early next (their is a bit of evidence to support this but don't get your hopes high and take it with a grain of salt).
Does anyone remember how they said that grey knights and sisters of battle codex would merge together?
This is pretty easy to explain. It's because I'm okay with having unpopular opinions, and I am much better at formulating written arguments than other people. People don't like to run up against other people that are smarter than them on topics they think they are experts on. And they hate losing. So, naturally, they get upset with me. It's natural. I'm used to it. When you're a six foot tall, educated professional who was also a Marine, you intimidate all of the people who just hoped you would be another dumb jarhead. I break the conventions that a lot of people who build their perceptions of the world on. I'm stronger, faster, and smarter. /shrug. Again, it sounds arrogant. But in reality, it's just the way it is. Right now, there's some guy reading these sentences and already getting all mad and pouty and trying to concoct some clever reply about how much of an arrogant jerk I am.
Look, this is all very silly. No one knows how fast or strong a block of text is, and no one cares. No one is intimidated by the rippling muscles of your punctuation. Unpopular opinions are the very fuel that run message forums, and people share them all the time without getting into grief. None of the above is relevant to you getting yourself into hot water. You may well be stronger, faster, and smarter than many people. Now you need to work on your communication skills. Not getting along with people is not a sign that the rest of the world is broken.
Does anyone remember how they said that grey knights and sisters of battle codex would merge together?
I recall something like that yes. Not sure if it's legit though.
However, it is a good idea. I always believed that all of the Orders of the Inquisition should be merged together in their own Codex. Especially the Ordos Xenos, because Deathwatch.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, but there's more of an emphasis on the Ordos Malleus in C: GK. I was thinking of something a little more balanced.
Very true, Malleus has always been the big boy in 40k. Although, iirc, they did change it so that the GK worked with all of the Ordos now, so that's a plus. They are basically the big guns that the Inqs can call in when needed. C:GK would have been near perfect if they just added Deathwatch as an Elite with a SC that made them troops. Then it would have covered the Ordos Militant.
pretre wrote:See? That's what I'm talking about. You're just being (un)intentionally abrasive and arrogant. We are quite clear on your ability to lay waste to all of us at a moment's notice. You have made it clear in this and many other threads. Let it go.
Nice picture. How's that working out for you? The whole "being clever" thing?
If anyone needs to let it go, it's the people who cannot engage in an argument in a reasonable, civil manner. After all, all of my responses are entirely reactionary. You behave correctly, you get treated well. If you behave badly, you get treated poorly. I mean, this is the Golden Rule at work.
After all, is it not rather hypocritical to suggest that I "Let it go" when in fact you're participating in the very same behavior?
I think what you meant to say was "Let me be right!"
I can tell you right now that your current tactic is not working well.
I don't think you're actually aware of what my "tactic" even is. I cannot affect the behavior of other people here. I can only respond to it.
I mean, again, I'd like someone to, one time, point out where I was the bad guy here. Where I started any kind of argument or initiated poor behavior. Everyone I've challenged to do that has quietly changed the subject or left the thread abashed. By all means, be the first, and change the trend. The worst thing I did was suggest that at some point, somebody was going to behave poorly and attack me. I was right, wasn't I?
Perhaps, if that doesn't work, try refraining from posting in topics that you think may have a negative response to your posting.
What fun is that? I'm not here to ensure that you enjoy yourself. I'm here to ensure I enjoy myself. I will never actively work to ruin your experience. However, I cannot ensure that you enjoy yourself. Happiness is your own problem. I believe it would be more effective if you would refrain from reading this forum, because then you cannot be negatively affected by opinions that conflict with yours. Trust me, you won't ever find me on a Sisters of Battle forum because I just assume the behavior is as universally poor there as it is on the general 40K forums.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Nice picture. How's that working out for you? The whole "being clever" thing?
About as well as quoting Fight Club is for you.
I mean, again, I'd like someone to, one time, point out where I was the bad guy here. Where I started any kind of argument or initiated poor behavior. Everyone I've challenged to do that has quietly changed the subject or left the thread abashed. By all means, be the first, and change the trend. The worst thing I did was suggest that at some point, somebody was going to behave poorly and attack me. I was right, wasn't I?
Wait, so telling people that they are trolls isn't trolling people and initiating poor behavior?
Veteran Sergeant from Page 1 of this thread in his first post wrote:I'm sure the usual suspects of Sisters fans/trolls will start to lambast me and my ideas because what I'm saying makes them unhappy.
Imo, sisters simply do not appeal to your typical (war)gamer...normally, in games, in order to appeal to customers, women have to sexualized in some way. They have to be attractive and wham, men like them.
Sisters, however, are butt-ugly and thus falls short on this matter.
Furthermore, they do not distinguish themselves enough of normal marines - to me, SoB are just female-ish marines - and the image of strong fighters simply does not fit to female characters in most minds.
Just think of "heroes" - how many women will come to your mind? Is a woman the first thing that you will see? Certainly won't.
All major heroes in fictional stories are male white. And why play female tin cans if you can play male tin cans that appear to be 10x more badass fluff-wise?
Sigvatr wrote: Just think of "heroes" - how many women will come to your mind? Is a woman the first thing that you will see? Certainly won't.
All major heroes in fictional stories are male white. And why play female tin cans if you can play male tin cans that appear to be 10x more badass fluff-wise?
Wow. There is so much wrong with this particular post that it is staggering.
Do we need to start a list of non male-white heroes? Geeze.
Sigvatr wrote: Imo, sisters simply do not appeal to your typical (war)gamer...normally, in games, in order to appeal to customers, women have to sexualized in some way. They have to be attractive and wham, men like them.
So what your saying is GW should make plastic sisters that look attractive? I'm down for that.
Sigvatr wrote: Imo, sisters simply do not appeal to your typical (war)gamer...normally, in games, in order to appeal to customers, women have to sexualized in some way. They have to be attractive and wham, men like them.
So what your saying is GW should make plastic sisters that look attractive? I'm down for that.
Either make the models look great, or make them brutally overpowered. Either one will get sales rolling. I'd rather the former than the latter, but either one would sell enough Sisters to convince GW that they were worth supporting.
I have to admit that I feel like I'm doing it wrong though. I've always seen Sisters as a well equipped version of IG, rather than frail, inept Space Marines.
Sisters are very close to storm troopers, if you want to have a good comparison. Utterly dedicated, extremely well-trained and well armed servants of the emperor. Except they take the next step from Utterly Dedicated and go to Fanaticism.
After all, compare the game stats and background for a Scholam graduate (Commissars and Storm Troopers) to someone who ends up in an Order (Sisters of Battle).
Sisters are nothing like Space Marines. Sisters are heroic because they are just humans, but manage to accomplish so much all the same.
Truth be told, I never saw a Necron model or Codex before the relaunch. Dark Eldar? We had one guy who bought the models second-hand and let's not derail the thread by discussing how he used the crappy second printing codex to make it work. Both of these seemed much more likely prospects for a quiet death by forgetting them entirely.
SoB and WH at least used to work, even if you always had to explain the Faith powers because not all worked on the same numbers and it seemed a bit arbitrary. ICs managing powers on their LD made it even more strange.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: When you're a six foot tall, educated professional who was also a Marine, you intimidate all of the people who just hoped you would be another dumb jarhead. I break the conventions that a lot of people who build their perceptions of the world on. I'm stronger, faster, and smarter. /shrug. Again, it sounds arrogant. But in reality, it's just the way it is.
What possible difference do you think that makes? You sound like "another dumb jarhead". You are attempting to intimidate people into leaving the discussion so that you are the last standing, and thus the "winner" of the argument. You might not realise this is what you are doing, but your purposefully aggressive posture is pretty self evident.
Oh, and this is how much I give a damn that you're an ex-Marine.
That's what I am wearing to work this morning. I am sure nobody else cares what you used to be either.
When I was starting to get into 40k, I looked over each army and see what was awesome about them. Imperial Guard, Wow! So many troops, so many heroic individuals and a wall of tanks! Space Marines, the best of the best, gods amongst men. Necrons, implacable metal monsters, silent killers and destructive beyond imagining. Sisters of Battle. The righteous destruction, the fire of faith, the greatest ordinary humans the Imperium has to offer, the people who purge the alien, kill the mutant and burn the unclean.
The thing is that with the other armies what makes them cool can be seen easily on the table top. Imperial Guard can field tons of Russes, Necrons have the flying baked goods of doom and so on. Yet what makes Sisters so cool is more abstract. How can you take their fantacism and show it on the simulated battlefield? Especially with static models that can't curse the alien. I'm no game designer so I can't pretend to know the answer but I do know, as a consumer, that I don't see it.
Their models are bleh to be fairly honest. They just don't strike me as awesome. They aren't bad models by no stretch of the imagination but they just don't grab you. If they could take the thing that make Sisters so badass and put it on the table top, along with a better line of models, then I would think of buying them. Until then the sisters come off as a niche army.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: When you're a six foot tall, educated professional who was also a Marine, you intimidate all of the people who just hoped you would be another dumb jarhead. I break the conventions that a lot of people who build their perceptions of the world on. I'm stronger, faster, and smarter. /shrug. Again, it sounds arrogant. But in reality, it's just the way it is.
Typical too, big headed, egotistical, and never think you're in the wrong.
Just messin
Seriously though, back on topic as to the OP
I somehow doubt we'll ever see plastic sisters. Think of it like this, GW is moving molds to finecast right? Have we seen any of those for SoB yet?
I'd love plastic sisters and I would pretty much drop a few hundred $'s on them when they came out.
Love the idea of them, even like their current "codex"
I just despise metal/finecast models.
Back on topic, I agree with everyone saying that it's only a matter of time before Sisters get an update. Maybe not anytime soon but I can't see GW not giving it one more shot. Especially since I doubt they don't have at least one person who skims these kinds of sites to see what people want and are talking about.
Wow. There is so much wrong with this particular post that it is staggering.
Do we need to start a list of non male-white heroes? Geeze.
I don't really care for your personal opinion on that matter...not because it's yours, but because it's one among many. Just have a look at video games and movies. Have a look at the characters that really influenced the image of a hero. How many non-white, female heroes can you think of? Think of all the action movies. Lots of black / female protagonists? When given the ability to create a customizable characters, what's his skin complexion most of the time? I could go on.
You do not get my point because you're driven by your subjective perception instead of trying to have a look at it all.
Either make the models look great, or make them brutally overpowered. Either one will get sales rolling. I'd rather the former than the latter, but either one would sell enough Sisters to convince GW that they were worth supporting.
I don't really care for your personal opinion on that matter...not because it's yours, but because it's one among many. Just have a look at video games and movies. Have a look at the characters that really influenced the image of a hero. How many non-white, female heroes can you think of? Think of all the action movies. Lots of black / female protagonists? When given the ability to create a customizable characters, what's his skin complexion most of the time? I could go on.
This is a really risky thing to say and is extremely chicken-eggish.
There has been many games, books, comics, movies etc... which feature strong, well-written characters of any race, region and gender.
Its just that the majority of the mainstream media productions from the USA literally refuse to step outside of their comfort zones and that goes a long way to shaping the appetite of the consumer.
There are many studies done by many over-qualified and twice as many under-qualified individuals on this subject alone, it won't be hard to look it all up.
Sadly, this all goes a long way to accepting a vast undercurrent of casual racism and misogyny that exists today and when change tries to be wrought at any level the argument about the consumer wants this gets trotted out, catch-22, chicken-egg-time, etc...
But also, if all people wanted was thirty-something caucasian men, then how do you explain Orks? Tyranids? Tau? Necrons?
- Black Panther - Spawn - Storm - Psylocke - Mr. T - Hitchcock - Ricky-O - Jenny Quantum - Swift - Bishop - Jubilee - Steel - Blade - Ben Daimo
I can go on, but I really don't have the time.
Do you consider those even barely close to stuff like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Christopher Walken, Keanu Reeves, Bruce Willis, Spiderman, Superman, Batman, Jesus (see what I did there?), Rocky Balboa etc.? You mentioned a bunch of far lesser known and far less popular characters. I won't even discuss stuff like Alyx and the Borderlands guys...
Go out on the street, ask people to name a hero.
See, it's not my point to say that it *should* be that way. It's the internet, and a lot of people get this wrong. I am just stating what it's like in reality...and some people don't like hard facts when those oppose their personal opinion. Male white is the current archetype for a hero in the western world when it comes to an overall look at heroes. Deal with it.
Sigvatr wrote: Do you consider those even barely close to stuff like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Christopher Walken, Keanu Reeves, Bruce Willis, Spiderman, Superman, Batman, Jesus (see what I did there?), Rocky Balboa etc.? You mentioned a bunch of far lesser known and far less popular characters. I won't even discuss stuff like Alyx and the Borderlands guys...
I think the problem is that you are assuming your experience is fact.
Spoiler:
It isn't.
So now we want female action heroes and/or famous actresses? Sailor Moon, Power Puff Girls, Lady Jaye/Scarlett, She-ra, Raven/Starfire, Cheetara, Mulan, Black Widow, Angeline Jolie (Lara Croft, Salt, etc), Mila Jovovich (5th Element, Resident Evil), Sigourney Weaver (Ripley), Elektra, Nikita, Mathilda (the professional), Sarah Connor, Princess Leia, Elizabeth Swann, Supergirl, Babydoll, et all from Sucker Punch, Eowyn, HItgirl, Daenerys, Arya, Briene, Salander, Hermione, Mara Jade, Power Girl, Starbuck, Emma Peel, Buffy, Xena, River Tam, Scully, Samus, blah blah blah.
Male white is the current archetype for a hero in the western world when it comes to an overall look at heroes. Deal with it.
Wow. You really told us. Now let's try to find some facts...
Amusing fun fact, the first Hero was female.
The first Hero: Hero (mythical priestess), in Greek mythology, priestess of Aphrodite, goddess of love, at Sestos, a town on the Hellespont (now Dardanelles). Hero was loved by Leander, a youth who lived at Abydos, a town on the Asian side of the channel. They could not marry because Hero was bound by a vow of chastity, and so every night Leander swam from Asia to Europe, guided by a lamp in Hero's tower. One stormy night a high wind extinguished the beacon, and Leander was drowned. His body was washed ashore beneath Hero's tower; in her grief, she threw herself into the sea.
Let's look at the top actors and see who is an action star and male or female... Who are the Richest Actors (2010, but still relevant) #1? Angelina Jolie... Definitely an action star, non male. #2? Jennifer Aniston. Okay, not an action star. #3 Brad Pitt. We can give him action star. #4 Will Smith. Action Star, non white. #5 Adam Sandler. Not an action star, unless we count that one movie in the 90's. #6 Harrison Ford. Still an action star. #7 Tom Cruise. Action Star. #8 Tyler Perry. Umm. Not an action star, although didn't he do something... Nevermind. #9 Clint Eastwood. Was an action star. #10 Tom Hanks. Kind of... Not really.
So in the top 10, we have 6 real action stars. The top 2 of those are non-white males.
Okay, that could be a fluke.
Google Image Search, Action Hero, first page: Chuck Norris, Arnold, Bruce Willis, Jackie Chan, Emeka Enyioka, Barack Obama Action Figure (lol) Steven Seagal, Will Smith, Stallone, Lara Croft, Harrison Ford, Wesley Snipes, Vin Diesel, Van Damme, Imran Khan, Angelina Jolie, Antonio Bandares, Kevin Costner, Ajay (bollywood). So 8 white guys (9 if you count Vin Diesel) out of 19. ~50%
Jack Sparrow
Axel Foley
Bullitt
Captain America
Neo
Sing
Martin Riggs
Detective Inspector Lee
Luke Skywalker
Lara Croft
Foxy Brown
William Wallace
Spider Man
Hit-Girl
The man with no name
Casey Ryback
Yu Shu Lien
Selene
Han Solo
Aragorn
Paul Kersey
Superman
Blade
Ethan Hunt
Dutch
Ah Jong
Jack Burton
Wolverine
John Matrix
Shaft
Maximus
Robocop
Mad Max
Alice
Salander
Rambo
Sanjuro Kuwabatake
The Bride
Snake Plisskin
Bruce Lee
Iron Man
Sarah Connor
Batman
Terminator
Dirty Harry
Indiana Jones
John McClane
Jason Bourne
Ellen Ripley
James Bond
Top 10 Heroes of All Time (UGO.com) #2 and #10, non white or female. Amusing that Indiana Jones beat Jesus though. Does being an elf count as non-white?
Spoiler:
10 - Ripley
9 - Link
8 - Master Chief
7 - John McClane
6 - Wolverine
5 - Han Solo
4 - Mario
3 - Batman
2 - Jesus
1- Indiana Jones
They need to be rolled with black templars into a single book, 'Imperial Crusade'.
As is, there are too many imperial books clobbering the schedule. SInce they ditched the Inquisition omnibus idea, this is the next shot at that. Piggybacking a historically not-financially successful army unto a reasonably popular one, but allowing each to still be viable in the codex as a pure force (IE sisters and crusader squads as troop choices) would solve most of their problems.
I don't think naming female protagonists in fiction is really worthwhile. What Sigvatr suggested was nobody wants to play an all female army that isn't sexualised. Rather than inviting references to popular depictions of female heroes the better question, which Kettu hit on, is why on that basis anyone plays Nids/Necrons/Tau etc.? Where are the alien protagonists?
Glorioski wrote: I don't think naming female protagonists in fiction is really worthwhile. What Sigvatr suggested was nobody wants to play an all female army that isn't sexualised. Rather than inviting references to popular depictions of female heroes the better question, which Kettu hit on, is why on that basis anyone plays Nids/Necrons/Tau etc.? Where are the alien protagonists?
Are you asking for a list of non-human protagonists? I can provide one, if you want. It won't be very long though.
Let's be honest here, if the sisters got plastic and their models look attractive (but most of them still wore full armour aside from the repentias and another unit or two). They would sell a lot better. I mean how many guys play a hot girl in an mmo.
Silverthorne wrote: They need to be rolled with black templars into a single book, 'Imperial Crusade'.
As is, there are too many imperial books clobbering the schedule. SInce they ditched the Inquisition omnibus idea, this is the next shot at that. Piggybacking a historically not-financially successful army unto a reasonably popular one, but allowing each to still be viable in the codex as a pure force (IE sisters and crusader squads as troop choices) would solve most of their problems.
Hoo boy. I got ripped apart last time I suggested this. Good luck.
Glorioski wrote: I don't think naming female protagonists in fiction is really worthwhile. What Sigvatr suggested was nobody wants to play an all female army that isn't sexualised. Rather than inviting references to popular depictions of female heroes the better question, which Kettu hit on, is why on that basis anyone plays Nids/Necrons/Tau etc.? Where are the alien protagonists?
Are you asking for a list of non-human protagonists?
I can provide one, if you want. It won't be very long though.
No I'm saying if Sigvatr thinks there is no interest in the SOB because there are few examples of popular heroic females in fiction. He should explain why there is interest in Nids/Necrons etc. when there is a similar minority of non-humans (particularly without human personalities) as protagonists.
Necrosis wrote: Let's be honest here, if the sisters got plastic and their models look attractive (but most of them still wore full armour aside from the repentias and another unit or two). They would sell a lot better. I mean how many guys play a hot girl in an mmo.
Yep, a full plastic release would be a huge success, I feel. Like Dark Eldar or Necron scale release.
Silverthorne wrote: They need to be rolled with black templars into a single book, 'Imperial Crusade'.
As is, there are too many imperial books clobbering the schedule. SInce they ditched the Inquisition omnibus idea, this is the next shot at that. Piggybacking a historically not-financially successful army unto a reasonably popular one, but allowing each to still be viable in the codex as a pure force (IE sisters and crusader squads as troop choices) would solve most of their problems.
Hoo boy. I got ripped apart last time I suggested this. Good luck.
I was hoping no one would acknowledge that post cause it so ridiculous. Also with the new ally matrix this is unlikely to happen.
I actually think that it isn't a bad idea. A little retcon here and there and you could have a really interesting mixed army of the style of C:GK. It'll never happen, but I think it is still a good idea.
Silverthorne wrote: They need to be rolled with black templars into a single book, 'Imperial Crusade'.
As is, there are too many imperial books clobbering the schedule. SInce they ditched the Inquisition omnibus idea, this is the next shot at that. Piggybacking a historically not-financially successful army unto a reasonably popular one, but allowing each to still be viable in the codex as a pure force (IE sisters and crusader squads as troop choices) would solve most of their problems.
Not really, no. There's no fluff justification; Black Templars and Sisters don't see eye to eye. Sure they have similar beliefs, but so do Catholics and Protestants, and they have a history of not getting along. Just look at the allied matrix; the BT are desperate allies with the SoB.
It would be like Dark Eldar merging with the Eldar. Except worse.
Silverthorne wrote: They need to be rolled with black templars into a single book, 'Imperial Crusade'.
As is, there are too many imperial books clobbering the schedule. SInce they ditched the Inquisition omnibus idea, this is the next shot at that. Piggybacking a historically not-financially successful army unto a reasonably popular one, but allowing each to still be viable in the codex as a pure force (IE sisters and crusader squads as troop choices) would solve most of their problems.
Hoo boy. I got ripped apart last time I suggested this. Good luck.
Your hostility in that topic early on didn't exactly help your position, nor was the fact it was a still a vastly disliked topic for both factions. Most would rather expand the SoB to a full on "Church" army with all that could be included from the Ecclesiarchy rather than roll in with another marine army that would dilute it, not to mention sisters are still a bit bitter over losing their "Dedicated Religious Crusading Army" and would prefer BT to be rolled up in C:SM rather than have it even be there.
Still Standing wrote:What possible difference do you think that makes? You sound like "another dumb jarhead". You are attempting to intimidate people into leaving the discussion so that you are the last standing, and thus the "winner" of the argument. You might not realise this is what you are doing, but your purposefully aggressive posture is pretty self evident.
Oh, and this is how much I give a damn that you're an ex-Marine.
.
Is that a real military outfit? How cool. I'm sure it's gotten lots of good hard use.
You still miss the point. I called it from the beginning, that the trolls would come here and derail this thread with personal attacks on me, instead of just accepting or disagreeing the ideas that were presented. It became about me, rather than my ideas. Is it fun to poke back a bit at the end? Of course it is. After all, I was never the instigator. I can't help being better educated on the subject than people who want to troll the thread. Maybe you trolls need to go for some more schooling. The only reason I bring up my background is that people know what it is, and still throw themselves on their swords at my feet by making heavily flawed arguments they can never hope to win with, and attacking me as the source. I never chose to battle here. My posts were very even handed, well reasoned, and polite. People brought the fight to me. I was just pointing out how incredibly stupid that was, considering how much better prepared I am than the average poster here.
Like I said. I know that the fate of the Sisters and how they've been handled by Games Workshop makes people angry. Taking that anger out on me is just stupid. For two reasons. I'm not Games Workshop. I neither did anything to the Sisters, nor do I have any ability to. And the other is because, yeah, you're going to get stomped if I choose to reply to you. I never once tried to intimidate anyone into leaving the discussion. If people actually want to discuss the topic instead of attack me, this thread wouldn't have become such a crapfest. What you don't realize, is that you're one the problem elements in this thread, not me. You came in here, already flown off the handle, firing at me. What the heck were you possibly hoping to achieve, other than working out some of your little-man angst by firing off some cheap insult at me? Come on. Did you think i would be impressed?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Jesus was actually an Arab (He was born in the Middle East). The idea that he is white is a gross misconception.
It's not really clear that Jesus was anything - historically we have next to nothing to indicate Jesus existed at the time he was supposed to. However, skipping that there isn't any reason to think he would be Arabic either... Arabs were just one of a number of Semetic people living in the region at the time, and not nearly as numerous as today. I'd put my money on Jesus being ethnically Jewish if anything. The Arabs during that time period were largely nomadic people's living east of the area Jesus supposedly inhabited, and they were pretty culturally distinct - had he been raised among Arabic people he would have had a lot of difficulty fitting into the areas he lived in according to the bible.
"White" is a whole other can of worms. Arabs are a Semitic people, like Jews. As such, they are Caucasians... whether that makes them white is up for debate, but genetically they are as white as the Jewish peoples are.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Jesus was actually an Arab (He was born in the Middle East). The idea that he is white is a gross misconception.
It's not really clear that Jesus was anything - historically we have next to nothing to indicate Jesus existed at the time he was supposed to. However, skipping that there isn't any reason to think he would be Arabic either... Arabs were just one of a number of Semetic people living in the region at the time, and not nearly as numerous as today. I'd put my money on Jesus being ethnically Jewish if anything. The Arabs during that time period were largely nomadic people's living east of the area Jesus supposedly inhabited, and they were pretty culturally distinct - had he been raised among Arabic people he would have had a lot of difficulty fitting into the areas he lived in according to the bible.
"White" is a whole other can of worms. Arabs are a Semitic people, like Jews. As such, they are Caucasians... whether that makes them white is up for debate, but genetically they are as white as the Jewish peoples are.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: You still miss the point. I called it from the beginning, that the trolls would come here and derail this thread with personal attacks on me, instead of just accepting or disagreeing the ideas that were presented. It became about me, rather than my ideas. Is it fun to poke back a bit at the end? Of course it is. After all, I was never the instigator. I can't help being better educated on the subject than people who want to troll the thread. Maybe you trolls need to go for some more schooling.
You have been busily making this about you, rather than your ideas, since you came in. From your posts I have learned far more about your history, education, persecution complex, enjoyment of poking back, musculature, modeling talents, old rivalries and self proclaimed verbal skills than I have about the Sisters of battle.
Hollowman wrote: You have been busily making this about you, rather than your ideas, since you came in. From your posts I have learned far more about your history, education, persecution complex, enjoyment of poking back, musculature, modeling talents, old rivalries and self proclaimed verbal skills than I have about the Sisters of battle.
I think you're confused. I don't feel persecuted, lol. It's just fun to point out how the very people accusing me of being a jerk are in fact the ones who are actually behaving badly, because they don't like the fact that the Sisters of Battle never sold enough models to get a revamped product line, and I was the first one to say it in the thread, and eloquent and educated enough to show why that is, in fact, the truth, despite the fact that they would prefer that it wasn't the truth of the situation. That's actually a pretty sweet run-on sentence, but I will let it stand. Look, I didn't make this thread about me. It became about me the second people decided I was a convenient proxy for Games Workshop, and they could vent at me. I mean, did I know that would happen? Of course I did. I know how the Sisters of Battle fanbase tends to act on this and other forums. But hey, the guy asked a question. I believe prospective players should get both sides of the story. A Sisters army is expensive, and a new player could dump a lot of money into it, so they should be aware that it is more or less a dead faction in the game, and somewhat likely that it won't see significant updates for some time, and probably never see full support. I have no dog in this fight. I have no agenda to push more players into Sisters to create demand for updates.
Like I've said though, many times, I am incapable of being offended by people on the Internet. Just like I am nobody to you, you are even less of a somebody to me, because I already work in marketing and have a low opinion of the average person since I get paid to manipulate them. So what people say to me, or about me on here? Not even worth their time to post if their intent is to harm my self esteem. They post that stuff to make themselves feel better. Like Still Standing, for example. He charged into this thread with nothing to contribute to the discussion, only to let me know that I am, in his words, "a fething dick". Now, whose benefit was that for? Mine? Can you imagine that I care? Of course not. It was for him to feel better about telling me off, and hopefully so he could get some people to agree with him so he could feel even more loved and accepted by his Dakka peers because the thread had already turned into a hate fest.
Look, I'm not going to be likable by everyone, I get that. My friends are usually awesome like me. Or complete goofballs who amuse me. So you can imagine that making more friends in the toy soldier hobby isn't among my highest priorities. Now, don't get me wrong. There are a lot of really talented, creative, smart people in this hobby whom I would be more than happy to be friends with. But, at the same time, no sleep will be lost if that doesn't happen.
I will address one point you made earlier, that I neglected to in the morass of garbage posts from other people.
Which is exactly what they did with GK (and Dark Eldar), and that worked like gangbusters.
Remember, what they did to the Grey Knights was completely reinvent them,
Again, like I said they needed to do with the Sisters.
Now, I understand my vision of what could effectively revitalize the line isn't for everybody. This was again where people got confused about me not being Games Workshop, and thus my idea is completely just me throwing something out there when asked, and in no way official, and, being a good idea, completely unlikely to actually happen, lol. I will admit I should have left that sloppy conversion out, because that actually looked nothing at all like what I was imagining, it was just the only thing even remotely close I could find on Google. Honestly, I was envisioning a look more in line with what they have now, just a little less S&M nun looking, and more "believable bad ass" looking. And more subdued religious iconography. Not gone, just more subdued. I think their flowy robes and pageboy haircuts, etc, are all relics of Rogue Trader/2nd Edition era styling that hadn't quite gone away. The game has changed, the player base has changed, societal values have changed. I think to succeed, the model line needs to be overhauled completely. And that might come with changes the existing player base isn't entirely happy with. But that may be what's necessary for it to happen at all. Though maybe Phil Kelly wasn't just giving a "Leave me alone" answer. I mean, I hear those "rumors", and it reminds me of all the years that Squats 'were coming", lol. So, we'll see. But it seems like a pretty big longshot.
AtomicEngineer wrote: I'm talking a real army again, with their own real codex, new models and so on. Ive been waiting years for the sisters of battle to get the attention they deserve. Any word about them? or are they sticking with that White dwarf rules for them now.
The only way that their a new Sisters of Battle release would be a success is if they were one of the most ridiculously overpowered armies to date. (See Grey Knights)
Also I like the idea of Imperial Crusade containing Sisters of Battle and Black Templars. Of course you'll have to change the background but let's not pretend like that stands in the way of anything. (See Necrons)
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I will address one point you made earlier, that I neglected to in the morass of garbage posts from other people.
Which is exactly what they did with GK (and Dark Eldar), and that worked like gangbusters.
Remember, what they did to the Grey Knights was completely reinvent them,
Again, like I said they needed to do with the Sisters.
The GK and Necrons were just made super awesome while the Dark Eldar got some real personality on them instead of "Evil lol". Hopefully the Sisters could get some personality (and some combat ability) without being made the new standard of awesome. The WD codex is actually quite good in ability - I can beat most opponents with it as often as I lose, and I always lose with style and burn a whole lot of enemy squads before it's done. The only thing that really pisses my opponents off today is St Celestine for being cheap and excellent. Then again, previously she was stupidly expensive and good...
Oh, and the guy that posted a pic toward your supposed marine career actually posted British Commonwealth style Lieutenants insignia - I can't make out which country and which branch from that picture, sadly. A bad move on the internet from both of you in any case. Both get reduced respect in countries that still have mandatory military service - we see paid soldiers as the less fortunate members of society enlisting for a better standard of living. Which ofc is exactly as it used to be here under the Swedish and Russian kings.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: There wasn't a lot of us Daemonhunters-players before Codex: Grey Knights, now there's loads (which is good, don't get me wrong). Same thing probably applies to Sisters; I know I'd play them if they had an accessible Codex and didn't cost a small fortune.
That and GW fethed up the allies matrix so my Templars and any Sisters I'd ally in wouldn't work very well, which is a shame.
True to that, I love the sisters, but to play them would cost WAY too much, especially being in Australia and them being order only...
From the what I've heard, Sisters should be out late 2013-late 2014, 2015 at the latest.
The only way that their a new Sisters of Battle release would be a success is if they were one of the most ridiculously overpowered armies to date. (See Grey Knights)
Also I like the idea of Imperial Crusade containing Sisters of Battle and Black Templars. Of course you'll have to change the background but let's not pretend like that stands in the way of anything. (See Necrons)
One less Imperial codex
The problem is not an excess of imperial codexes, it's an excess of space marine codexes. Making a "Space Marines with a side of girls" codex doesn't sound like a useful response to me... As someone said above, expanding the role of the Eccelsiarchy and including more units should do the trick just fine. Marines are the single most over represented unit on the table, and I don't see that they add much of interest to the Sisters.
The Sarducci wrote: You are looking at this the wrong way. Look at what we do have over other armies. Why would you want new models? I like the old metals over resin and plastics for many reasons. They have a better center of gravity, they can be restripped easily, they are easier to convert, and when you throw them at your opponent you can do real damage. Try that with a plastic space marine or a resin ork. Plus, we have easy to assemble models. A drop of glue on the base and backpack, and DONE. No more spending weeks on multipart models to get a unit done, no more glue on your fingers, and no more figuring out what to arm your model with. In addition, the average boltgun toting sister only has 3 real poses, with slight variations (bolter angled up, down, or level, helmet or not, etc..). After about 120 or so girls I can now paint sisters like the wind. Another benefit is we, and our opponents, easily know what we are armed with. No guessing. Lets see a mob of orks do that. Plus, we Sisters player have the advantage of surprise. Since our models are harder to find and more expensive, there are fewer of us, and we tend be be hardcore and stubborn. There are usually only 1 or 2 Sisters players at most stores, so no one can accuse us of playing the flavor of the month cookie cutter army. Very few opponents play against us often enough to know all of our surprises. And since we are stubbornly still playing sisters, we have years, if not over a decade (14 years for me) of experience with them. We, on average, tend to be substantially better then most players. Finally, who wants to buy a new codex every few years. I bought one in 98, and another in 06. Toss in a White Dwarf list in 01 and 12, and that's plenty. Besides, we all know that a codex is a crutch for weak players.
Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind a new unit or two. I picked up a Forge World Avenger and an Aegis Defense Line. I just don't want to give up all we have for a few new models that probably won't look all that good and still cost way too much.
Rant over. I'm going to take my meds and take a nap until Saturday.
:: kneels in worship ::
Thank you for this post... Thank you so much.
As it happens, a passing curiosity as to whether the most recent Codex had been put up on the GW site yet quickly led me into a short rant to my friend about the lack of love from GW for my favored army. I am one to wallow in sorrow, so I sought out the forums of Dakka to find others who share my lament.
I... I must admit, I did not expect to find your words of hope here. But I did. At first, I was poised to reply, to regale you with a tale of when my gaming spirit was broken, on these very forums, after weeks of encountering nothing but dislike for the treatment of the Adeptas Sororitas.
However, as I continued to read, I remembered why I was not upset with what we received at first. My hope was renewed, my spirit mended somewhat.
I believe that many who feel as though they have been trod upon could heed your words.
:: huggles ::
Edit: However, I do have a selfish motive for longing for plastic Battle Sister models. That being that I'd love to bastardize one with either a scaly or a furry head and tail. : D
Edit again! : D : In response to:
Still Standing wrote: Even back when they sold the boxes in the shops they were useless. Still had to buy a model (or convert) to be your VSS, then a Heavy Flamer and a Melta Gun from elsewhere. Add in a Rhino and you were talking 50-60 for a single 209 point Troop choice... I can't even imagine how much they cost now.
Sisters are not Grenadiers or Storm Troopers. They are Sisters of Battle, the most elite fighting force the Imperium can muster, outside of the Astartes themselves.
Depended what you did with them.
I just used the boxed sets as-is. So my Sisters squads had a Veteran Superior with a plasma pistol and chainsword, and the squad had a flamer and a stormbolter. They also tended to be on foot, because I was loathe to use transports for some reason. Still am. Would rather spend the points on more boots or battle tanks or something. Regardless of how useful it actually was, it just felt like a waste to spend an additional 33% of a squad's points on a transport.
Also, I thought it was nifty how if you went with only the WYSIWYG options - of course including the upgrade to Veteran Superior to use the plasma pistol - for the boxed Battle Sister Squads, it came out to exactly 150 points for the squad. It's almost like they planned it that way...
Those boxes used to cost 50 dollars from GW. I'd probably have gotten into Sisters years earlier, except that a box of Tactical Marines cost about 35 dollars, and the Sororitas cost 50 for the same number of models. So it was kinda a no-brainer for me as a 14 year old with a modest allowance. A few years later, after I was getting back into the hobby, I saw those boxes of Sororitas at the same price, saw that Tactical Marines were up to 42 dollars per box, and suddenly I could stomach the cost. Now I have about 2500 points worth of Sisters of Battle that I could and would legally field, and.... I can't really thing of anything else I'd want. I don't think I've bought anything for them since I gave my Saint Celestine an angel wing backpack from the Sanguinary Guard kit. Before that, probably the Exorcist and "Uriah-bomb" I bought just after the most recent Codex. Though I did just get a KR case with half trays for my Sororitas, if that counts.
There's just not enough that I would use that I don't already have. ^^ I play 1,000 point games now, up from 750, down from the 1500 I used to play before that - those games would take about a week to play because my opponent and I are slow gamers, she plays Orks, we play an hour at a time, and we constantly look up rules because I don't remember specifics, I REALLY don't remember precise wording, and she has all sorts of memory issues - but not Alzheimer's; she's been tested for that -- and I don't need more Sisters with bolters cause I have at least 40 of them, I have 5 flamers, 4 meltaguns, 4 heavy bolters (those are my favorite Sororitas models), 2 heavy flamers, 2 multi-meltas, 2 Immolators, 1 Rhino, 1 Exorcist (And an Immolator can double as an Exorcist with a Whirlwind turret with a few permanent modifications to the turret ring), a Battle Conclave (planning on getting some Arco-Flagellants, gonna use Witch Elves from the WHFB range to keep that all-female thing going, and to keep things in order I use the actual Death-Cult Assassin models as DCAs, since I like those models), Uriah, Celestine, 2 Canonesses with different weapons, 2 Penitent Engines held together with massive amounts of green stuff and superglue (Would REALLY love plastic Penitent Engines...)
Wait, what was my original topic? I don't even remember....
I still to this day use the stormbolter sisters as my superiors. The stormbolter makes a convincing combi weapon. So those 10 girl boxes the only model I had to replace was the VSS with a heavy flamer. Though I use to run my squads flamer/heavy flamer/combi flamer. because it was the best use of their faith ability. I left the melta to my dominions and celestian squads.
Made those 10 girl boxes a good buy for bulking out the army. I probably got 3 of them.
IcedAnimals wrote: I still to this day use the stormbolter sisters as my superiors. The stormbolter makes a convincing combi weapon. So those 10 girl boxes the only model I had to replace was the VSS with a heavy flamer. Though I use to run my squads flamer/heavy flamer/combi flamer. because it was the best use of their faith ability. I left the melta to my dominions and celestian squads.
Made those 10 girl boxes a good buy for bulking out the army. I probably got 3 of them.
Wow... I was totally gonna use the stormbolter-toting models as Superiors last year. But I was gonna use the stormbolters as stormbolters, not combi-weapons, cause I'd just forget two things about them. Well, okay, three. First, that they're combi-weapons. Second, which ones I've fired off so far. And third, which one I marked down as firing is in which squad. I play my games over a few nights, though, not all at once, so it's harder for me to remember. But mainly, it never occurred to me to use stormbolters as combi-weapons.
And I had a crazy thought tonight before I came in here again. I was thinking of taking a Dominion Squad and loading them down with Stormbolters, then kinda shooting up the Orks I play against at range. It'd have the same firepower at 24" that a basic 10-girl Battle Sisters squad would, and half of that at half-range (cause the Battle Sisters would get to double-tap with their boltguns, whereas Stormbolters are Assault weapons) so it wouldn't be all that effective, but I don't play competitively and I like the idea. Maybe I just don't like that sad feeling I get when I go through my case to get some models out, and see the Stormbolter-wielding models sitting in the same compartments that they haven't left for over a year.
Pouncey wrote: Wow... I was totally gonna use the stormbolter-toting models as Superiors last year. But I was gonna use the stormbolters as stormbolters, not combi-weapons, cause I'd just forget two things about them. Well, okay, three. First, that they're combi-weapons. Second, which ones I've fired off so far. And third, which one I marked down as firing is in which squad. I play my games over a few nights, though, not all at once, so it's harder for me to remember. But mainly, it never occurred to me to use stormbolters as combi-weapons.
This is actually a rather easy conversion. You chop half the barrel and put a plasma pistol tip on the end. It makes it a side-by-side combi-weapon instead of an over-under.
And I had a crazy thought tonight before I came in here again. I was thinking of taking a Dominion Squad and loading them down with Stormbolters, then kinda shooting up the Orks I play against at range. It'd have the same firepower at 24" that a basic 10-girl Battle Sisters squad would, and half of that at half-range (cause the Battle Sisters would get to double-tap with their boltguns, whereas Stormbolters are Assault weapons) so it wouldn't be all that effective, but I don't play competitively and I like the idea. Maybe I just don't like that sad feeling I get when I go through my case to get some models out, and see the Stormbolter-wielding models sitting in the same compartments that they haven't left for over a year.
Instead, think of what 4 flamers and a combi-flamer can do when twin linked.
Sigvatr wrote: Imo, sisters simply do not appeal to your typical (war)gamer...normally, in games, in order to appeal to customers, women have to sexualized in some way. They have to be attractive and wham, men like them.
So what your saying is GW should make plastic sisters that look attractive? I'm down for that.
that would probably make me like them alot more TBH
the current angry bondage lesbos thing they have going on ATM is not doing them any favors
maybe they should be changed more into hot assassins.
My dream army has always been some sort of inquisition force hence I'm mostly GK but I really really always wanted to do a GK + sisters alliance. I definately had a few hours of rage time when I found out that they weren't battle brothers but meh, I'm still doing it. I got a good paying job now so I'm heavily trying to decide if I want to go get the metal sisters (I want all of them with helmets darn it, I dislike the bobcut, give me some ponytail models or something) Already gave in trying to wait and got me some 20 repentia to work on my color scheme..... or hold out and see if they have some plastic sisters by this summer.
After reading though this long thread and the locked one in the rumor mill, I'm not sure I want to wait around more at this point. Just really hate the face sculpts from GW so far for most of the sisters. Other than that, I'd get a bunch of them right now!
You still miss the point. I called it from the beginning, that the trolls would come here and derail this thread with personal attacks on me, instead of just accepting or disagreeing the ideas that were presented. It became about me, rather than my ideas. Is it fun to poke back a bit at the end? Of course it is. After all, I was never the instigator. I can't help being better educated on the subject than people who want to troll the thread. Maybe you trolls need to go for some more schooling. The only reason I bring up my background is that people know what it is, and still throw themselves on their swords at my feet by making heavily flawed arguments they can never hope to win with, and attacking me as the source.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: And now the petty personal attacks come barreling in.
Like I said, it's awesome to be right every time.
Acting rudely and condescendingly tends to piss people off. You may want to dial the superior tone back a bit if you want people to take you seriously.
Back on topic, Grey Knights were all metal and just as old as Codex: Witch Hunters and yet Grey Knights sold incredibly well.
The army was a dumb idea and with time as my witness, GW agrees. Unless they see a colossal surge in sales or GW revamps the army as part of a completely new direction for the franchise, then I see only recession and obscurity in their future. I don't necessarily think its good or just for a codex like this to go away, in the same way as I think the squats were unfairly killed off. But that said I still think they were both silly ideas that are kinda irrelevant.
All in all I think their place in history should be next to the delorian and the HD-DVD, a neat idea... but still kinda dumb.
Not so sure that GW will agree with you. A number of armies were rumored to be erased only to be updated. DE is the biggest example. Hopefully GW will update SoB but I hope to see some xenos love for all the flavors of SM to fight y'know? I will say this, I bought some metal Sisters for an all Sisters WH army and hope they run more of an Ecc. approach when they get a codex for 6th. I like how AoF work but hope they change up the powers for some units. Especially that one for cc, sheesh. But I do love the one for Repentia; it's like a last middle finger to the enemy.
I think evry person who I have known wanting to play sisters has been waiting for them to be updated, and off corse everyone now has left 40k completely :p other then myself.
Codex update would be nice but at this point they need new models if I was to consider them.
With GW timescale I expect them sometime after I have quit again.
I am hanging in and hoping hey get done but the prices rises are putting me off.........still I still have over a hundred sisters nicely painted - worse comes to worse - I'll convert rules for another system...............or just proxy them as Marines...........
@bibblles: That's certainly one way to look at it. The other way is that they aren't a dumb idea, but a great idea that captured the imagination of many 40k players over the years and have made for some really great, beautiful and dynamic armies.
@bibblles: That's certainly one way to look at it. The other way is that they aren't a dumb idea, but a great idea that captured the imagination of many 40k players over the years and have made for some really great, beautiful and dynamic armies.
From everyone that I spoke to about my sisters army at tournaments and such, all of them cited the fact that it's an all-metal, direct-only army as reasons for them to never try it.
If there was a plastic kit for basic sisters like there is for marines, I'm positive more people in my area would've made armies.
bibblles wrote: All in all I think their place in history should be next to the delorian and the HD-DVD, a neat idea... but still kinda dumb.
As a Sisters of Battle player and a DeLorean owner, I respectfully disagree. I've dropped thousands of dollars on the metal SoB range because I do like how the current models look and I prefer to work with metal over plastic. I cannot see how a Necron/GK/DE revamp with plastics will fail to do the Sisters good overall. Sisters bring much to the table now in 6th, especially as allies for many armies. How many more of those armies would include Sisters if they had a plastic Exorcist kit or plastic St. Celestine and Seraphim? The availability (or rather the lack thereof) of the current rules for the SoB do them no help either. I fully expect that when Sisters of Battle do get their release, they will become the "flavor of the month" and sell well enough. GK make a perfect example of this. Prior to their relaunch, I knew of one (1!) GK player, and that wasn't even in my area. After their new codex came out, GK's were outnumbering SM in my area. GW has to do something with the SoB line since they are supposedly not going to discontinue any more armies. Why not give them the same treatment as the other 3rd Edition ranges and redo them for the current edition?
I'm expecting a sister of battle release by the end of 2013. Weather it just be some plastic/fine cast or an entire new codex with new models. Their are a few sources now saying sisters of battle may be coming out in the end of 2013. Other armies have waited loner (dark eldar). In fact I'm pretty confident we will get something that if the sisters of battle don't get anything by 2013 I will give away my entire sister of battle army.
Because you needed personal attention for validation? Here you go. Here's your reply.
Good lord dude. You could have read one of my replies to almost identical statements, and have applied it to yours. I wasn't ignoring you because you made some fantastic and insightful observation. Your statement was redundant.
Look, I understand you didn't enjoy my good natured joke about the Black Templars, and then were angry that you guys didn't have enough relevant knowledge to refute it once I explained the basis for the joke. I make fun of all the factions. Including the ones I play. But that's because I don't take plastic toy soldiers so seriously. But you guys attacked me, just as the Sisters players here did. You call me rude and condescending for firing back? Good lord. I wish I lived in whatever alternate reality you guys do, lol. I don't get into arguments I can't win. If you come unprepared, and then get snippy when you're frustrated, it's not my fault if I'm better at being snippy and sarcastic than you are. Live with it, or don't poke at the wrong people.
I'd love to see a combination of all three books faiths to be honest.
Give them a single, unique act of faith *White Dwarf*, but there would be minor acts of faith that can be used by all units *Witch Hunters* with Priests and HQ's granting Sacred Rites to units they join, or within their radius *Second Edition*
Because you needed personal attention for validation? Here you go. Here's your reply.
Good lord dude. You could have read one of my replies to almost identical statements, and have applied it to yours. I wasn't ignoring you because you made some fantastic and insightful observation. Your statement was redundant.
Look, I understand you didn't enjoy my good natured joke about the Black Templars, and then were angry that you guys didn't have enough relevant knowledge to refute it once I explained the basis for the joke. I make fun of all the factions. Including the ones I play. But that's because I don't take plastic toy soldiers so seriously. But you guys attacked me, just as the Sisters players here did. You call me rude and condescending for firing back? Good lord. I wish I lived in whatever alternate reality you guys do, lol. I don't get into arguments I can't win. If you come unprepared, and then get snippy when you're frustrated, it's not my fault if I'm better at being snippy and sarcastic than you are. Live with it, or don't poke at the wrong people.
No, really, you didn't refute the point at all. There were almost no Daemonhunters players. With a new book and plastic models interest in them exploded.
I couldn't care less if you made a joke about whatever, and I don't care about personal attention. What does annoy me is when someone completely ignores points that don't fit his or her point of view and then has the massive hubris to declare themselves better than everyone else. Since I was clearly ignored the first time I'll ask again: please, have some modesty. Even if I don't agree with your position I, or anyone else for that matter, don't declare myself superior by merit of me saying so. If you can't see how this makes people upset then I can't really do much in this thread.
EDIT: On a second readthrough, it appears as if the issue is that you and Lynata don't see eye to eye. The resultant fight sees you attack anyone who disagrees with you, claiming that they use you as a proxy to vent their rage against GW while basing this on absolutely nothing. You're arguably correct in that you didn't throw the first stone (a few snide remarks in your first post, but nothing too serious), but you sure as hell overreacted and started flinging stones at EVERYONE.
