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Post by: AustonT
Almost stranger than fiction. I ran into this tonight and thought I'd share.
MEXICO CITY — As a U.S. Marine, Jon Hammar endured nightmarish tension patrolling the war-ravaged streets of Iraq’s Fallujah. When he came home, the brutality of war still pinging around his brain, mental peace proved elusive.
Surfing provided the only respite.
“The only time Hammar is not losing his mind is when he’s on the water,” said a fellow Marine veteran, Ian McDonough.
Hammar and McDonough devised a plan: They’d buy a used motor home, load on the surfboards and drive from the Miami area to Costa Rica to find “someplace to be left alone, someplace far off the grid,” McDonough said.
They made it to only the Mexican border. Hammar is in a Matamoros prison, where he spends much of his time chained to a bed and facing death threats from gangsters. He’s off the grid, for sure, in walking distance of the U.S. border. But it’s more of a black hole than a place to heal a troubled soul.
The reason might seem ludicrous. Hammar took a six-decade-old shotgun into Mexico. The .410 bore Sears & Roebuck shotgun once belonged to his great-grandfather. The firearm had been handed down through the generations, and it had become almost a part of Hammar, suitable for shooting birds and rabbits.
But Mexican prosecutors who looked at the disassembled relic in the 1972 Winnebago motor home dismissed the U.S. registration papers Hammar had filled out. They charged him with a serious crime: possession of a weapon restricted for use to Mexico’s armed forces.
Hammar isn’t the only American accused of questionable gun-related charges at Mexico’s border. Last April, a truck driver who was carrying ammunition through Texas got lost near the border, dipped into Mexico to make a U-turn and was forced to spend more than six months in jail.
It’s been months since Hammar’s Aug. 13 arrest, and his former Marine comrades are livid and dumbfounded, impotent to help.
“It’s heartbreaking. This is a guy who I served with in numerous combat situations, and he was one of the best we had,” said veteran Marine Sgt. James Garcia.
Hammar, 27, joined the Marines and deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq before receiving an honorable discharge in 2007, serving another four years in inactive reserve. In Fallujah, one of the most dangerous cities in Iraq, Hammar’s Marine battalion was hit hard, with 13 killed in action and more than 100 wounded, Garcia said.
“There were days where it was like, dude, I may not make it out of here,” Garcia said. “If it wasn’t the IEDs, it was the car bombs or the suicide bombs.”
In Afghanistan, the Marine unit provided security for President Hamid Karzai, protected election polls and disrupted insurgent cells around Kabul.
Hammar did not have an easy re-entry to civilian life. After recurring bouts of depression, he voluntarily checked into The Pathway Home, a residential treatment center for veterans in California’s Napa Valley, in August 2011 for treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder. He graduated nine months later.
“A big portion of his PTSD is survivor’s guilt. It’s a loss of innocence,” said Olivia Hammar, his mother, a Miami-Dade County magazine publisher. “You’re still trying to process all your friends who didn’t come home.”
After leaving Pathway, Jon Hammar and Ian McDonough spent $1,400 on the used Winnebago, splashed out another $3,000 to outfit it and mapped a route to Costa Rica, hitting surf breaks in Cocoa Beach, Fla., and in Louisiana and Texas along the way to Mexico. Inside the rolling white beast were up to nine surfboards.
“We begged him not to go, specifically because we were worried about his safety in Mexico, but they were fearless Marines and were undaunted,” Olivia Hammar said in an email.
McDonough, a U.S. citizen who’s lived off and on for three years in Argentina, said he and his friend were wary of dangers as they approached the Los Indios border crossing, which links Brownsville, Texas, with Matamoros, Mexico.
“We had enough gas in the vehicle that we were going to make it to southern Mexico before nightfall,” McDonough said. “We weren’t going to stop.”
The issue of the shotgun came up near the border.
“I told him that we probably shouldn’t take the shotgun with us,” McDonough said. “And he said, ‘No, I’m going to get it cleared with customs at the gate.’ So I said, ‘That’s fine. As long as it’s legit.’ ”
The Customs and Border Protection agent said it was all right to take the shotgun, McDonough said, adding that the agent told them: “ ‘All you have to do is register it.’ So they gave us a piece of paper and said, ‘This is your registration. You’ve got to pay this much.’ They gave us the piece of paper to give to the Mexican authorities.”
As soon as the Winnebago lumbered over the bridge and they handed over the form to Mexican agents, trouble began. The two spent several days in custody, separated from each other. Mexican authorities eventually freed McDonough, perhaps because of his Argentine residency, and he walked back to Brownsville.
On Aug. 18, Mexican prosecutors leveled serious charges against Hammar. Curiously, it wasn’t the type of shotgun that broke Mexican law. It was the length of the barrel, which the formal citation said was shorter than 25 inches, although a discrepancy has emerged over how the barrel was measured.
“It’s a glorified BB gun,” Olivia Hammar said.
Indeed, Mexico’s criminal groups routinely wield AK-47 and AR-15 assault rifles, high-powered .50-caliber sniper rifles, rocket-propelled grenades and other potent weaponry. If Hammar had any intention of causing mayhem, using his great-grandfather’s proud firearm would have been like Daniel Boone and his muzzle-loading Tick-Licker fighting a modern U.S. Marine.
Back in April, the Dallas truck driver, Jabin Bogan, carrying 25,000 pounds of ammunition in his 18-wheeler, said he got lost in El Paso en route to a delivery in Phoenix. When he lurched to a stop at the Mexican border, asking to turn around, a Customs and Border Protection agent told him it was impossible. He was told to enter Mexico and make a U-turn. He had no passport and couldn’t speak Spanish.
The ammunition was openly displayed on nine pallets in the truck, most of it of a caliber unsuitable for the AK-47 and AR-15 rifles favored by Mexico’s cartels.
Mexican prosecutors charged him with crimes that could have brought more than 25 years in prison.
“My son was not trying to deliver no drugs or no guns to nobody,” Bogan’s mother, Aletha Smith, told an ABC-TV affiliate in Texas.
Through pressure from members of the U.S. Congress, Bogan was freed Nov. 23, and he returned to a tearful reunion in Dallas with his family.
While his ordeal was difficult, Hammar’s has been worse.
Once Hammar was sent to a state prison in Matamoros, mixed in with the general inmate population, late-night phone calls began to his parents in Palmetto Bay, Fla.
“They said, ‘I have your son. We need money.’ I said, ‘I’m going to call the (U.S.) consulate.’ They said, ‘The consulate can’t help you.’ Then they put him on the phone. He said, ‘Mom, you need to pay them,’ ” Olivia Hammar recalled.
Over subsequent calls, the extortionists offered a Western Union account number and demanded an initial payment of $1,800.
Frantic, the Hammars contacted U.S. diplomats, who helped get their son out of a general cellblock into solitary confinement. They didn’t pay the extortion. Nor did they speak to the news media until now.
“He was housed in a wing controlled by the drug cartel,” said Eddie Varon-Levy, a Mexican lawyer hired by the family.
Varon-Levy said that Hammar, if convicted, could receive a sentence of anywhere from three to 12 years in a federal prison.
Making matters worse is the nature of Hammar’s confinement, a matter that’s drawn the attention of Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Fla., the chairwoman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee and the Hammars’ local representative.
“His family has described a very disturbing situation that includes their son being chained to a bed in a very small cell and receiving calls from fellow inmates threatening his life if they did not send them money,” Ros-Lehtinen said. “The family also says that the jail where their son is being held is controlled by the dreaded and brutal Zetas drug cartel. The family wants their son back home, and I will do my best to help them."
For all the toughness instilled by the Marine Corps, friends say Hammar is a gentle soul.
“Hammar doesn’t take meds. Hammar doesn’t smoke, doesn’t drink. Hammar doesn’t do any of that. He surfs,” McDonough said. “If you meet Hammar, you have to like him. He’s always there for you. If you need something, he’ll literally give you everything.”
So far, Hammar’s parents have gotten little help from U.S. diplomats.
“They take a real hands-off approach. Unless your life is at threat, they aren’t going to do anything,” Olivia Hammar said.
For Garcia and dozens of other Marines who’ve learned of Hammar’s plight, it’s hardly conceivable not to take action.
“He doesn’t deserve this,” Garcia said. “We never leave a brother behind. We never leave a Marine behind. We have to do something.
Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2012/12/06/2593733/latest-hell-for-ex-us-marine-chained.html#storylink=cpy
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Post by: Relapse
I'm looking more into this story and finding out whoto write to about this guy. I f enough people do, it might light a fire under somebody's ass to get this man out of that hellhole
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Post by: Hordini
Relapse wrote:I'm looking more into this story and finding out whoto write to about this guy. I f enough people do, it might light a fire under somebody's ass to get this man out of that hellhole
That's a good idea. If you find out, please share the info.
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Post by: d-usa
Why does it matter that he is military?
Would we care less if any other american was held in prison there?
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Post by: AustonT
 d-usa wrote:
Would we care less if any other american was held in prison there?
Honestly, I probably would. All I did was copy the headline though.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I thought the Marines take care of their own. Woulda figured that some retired (or maybe active) Recon types woulda "fallen off the grid" themselves and settled the issue themselves if you catch my meaning...
Yes, wishful thinking.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
So... turns out Americans have to obey the laws of other countries when they're in there.
Even if they're ex-military?
Even if they're nice guys who like to surf?
Even if what they had is legal in the US?
Yes, that is in fact true.
Just like former Mexican soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into the US, former US soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into Mexico.
As for whether the sentence is appropriate or what the #$%^ he's chained to a bed, that's a different issue relating to how Mexico treats prisoners but yeah, they were perfectly right to arrest him.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Kyoto did you read a single sentence of the article? He was carrying paperwork and following procedure to carry the weapon across the border. I dont know if youve ever been in a "third world" (northern mexico certainly qualifies) country, crooked and corrupt cops that do this sort of thing in order to extort money, etc. are the norm. Generally speaking, if he has paperwork for it and is attempting to bring a weapon into a country LEGALLY, standard procedure would be to confiscate the weapon and let him off with a warning, maybe detain them temporarily, NOT arrest them and send them to prison.
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Post by: Bromsy
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:So... turns out Americans have to obey the laws of other countries when they're in there.
Even if they're ex-military?
Even if they're nice guys who like to surf?
Even if what they had is legal in the US?
Yes, that is in fact true.
Just like former Mexican soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into the US, former US soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into Mexico.
As for whether the sentence is appropriate or what the #$%^ he's chained to a bed, that's a different issue relating to how Mexico treats prisoners but yeah, they were perfectly right to arrest him.
Did you skip the part where he was being held in a prison being controlled by a drug cartel that was trying to extort money from his parents to release him? Truly, a victory for international justice!
Not to mention the "any weapon he wanted" was an antique shotgun of the smallest bore commercially available, which he tried to register and bring legally, and was told he could. If you aren't familiar with guns - it's the sort you use to shoot rabbits and stuff.
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Post by: Hordini
d-usa wrote:Why does it matter that he is military?
Would we care less if any other american was held in prison there?
It's not that we would or should care less if another American was in prison there, but as a nation, it's important that we look out for our veterans. Even though it's gotten a lot better than it used to be, there are significant segments of the veteran population that are cast aside and not taken care of like they should be. The way a nation treats its veterans says a lot about it I think, and we should do as much as we can to help them out.
He put his ass on the line to serve our country. If we can do something to help him out now, shouldn't we?
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Post by: AustonT
Kid_Kyoto wrote:So... turns out Americans have to obey the laws of other countries when they're in there and when they do they should expect to be arrested and held for ransom.
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Post by: Hordini
So what about when they follow the laws of other countries and still get arrested and held for ransom?
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Post by: AustonT
 Hordini wrote:
So what about when they follow the laws of other countries and still get arrested and held for ransom?
kid_kyotobowl wrote:They should have seen it coming.
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Post by: yellowfever
I dont know why Americans have to keep putting up with Mexico's bull crap. They get all kinds of hook ups on our side but Americans get boned in Mexico. It's bs.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Yeah man, invade and annex I say, just like we should have at the end of the Mexican-American War!
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Post by: Hordini
 AustonT wrote: Hordini wrote:
So what about when they follow the laws of other countries and still get arrested and held for ransom?
kid_kyotobowl wrote:They should have seen it coming.
Maybe they should have, but that doesn't make what happened to them okay, and doesn't do anything to help the situation as it is now.
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Post by: dogma
chaos0xomega wrote:
Kyoto did you read a single sentence of the article? He was carrying paperwork and following procedure to carry the weapon across the border. I dont know if youve ever been in a "third world" (northern mexico certainly qualifies) country, crooked and corrupt cops that do this sort of thing in order to extort money, etc. are the norm.
So? Hammar either gave the Mexican authorities an excuse to arrest him, or there really was a violation regarding the shotgun.
chaos0xomega wrote:
Generally speaking, if he has paperwork for it and is attempting to bring a weapon into a country LEGALLY, standard procedure would be to confiscate the weapon and let him off with a warning, maybe detain them temporarily, NOT arrest them and send them to prison.
There's no such thing as standard procedure when it comes to the laws in varying nations, going to a different country isn't like going to a different state; especially if you're travelling outside the developed world. You can blame it on corruption all you want, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation or what the pair should have expected.
Moreover, the pair also planned to pass through Guatemala, Honduras or El Salvador, and Nicaragua. All of which have cartel problems as severe as Mexico's.
Tragic as the situation may be, Hammar and McDonough set themselves up for it from the beginning.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Yes travelling through those countries was a dumb move, but nobody gets arrested at the border (at least not for this long) for attempting to follow the law. There might be more to the story but ive seen this enough times to know there probably isnt and there doesnt need to be.
You realize the guy is basically in prison for no other reason than improperly filed paperwork? Its probably a difference of a couple inches in the measurement... its like... being sent to prison because your drivers license says your eyes are green instead of hazel.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Unsurprising and outrageous.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
yellowfever wrote:I dont know why Americans have to keep putting up with Mexico's bull crap. They get all kinds of hook ups on our side but Americans get boned in Mexico. It's bs.
The people to blame here are the US border guards. They ought to know Mexican gun law properly if they give advice to visitors to Mexico.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
That's the thing, this guy was APPROVED by MEXICAN authority.
Till he got to the border.
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Post by: dogma
No he wasn't. Per the story he filled out registration paperwork given to him by a US customs agent. He was then detained when he presented the paperwork to Mexican authorities at the border.
The only official that may have examined the paperwork prior to reaching the Mexican border was the US customs agent.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
It sucks and I hope it can be arranged to get him out quickly in a reasonable manner, but:
America has major issues with illegal drugs being smuggled across the border. This can often lead to ridiculous (bs) arrests and sentences over petty offenses.
Mexico has major issues with illegal weapons being smuggled across the border. I am not particularly shocked that an incident resulted in a ridiculous (bs) arrest and sentence.
The major difference? American prisons are day spas compare to Mexican prisons.
You wouldn't catch me trying to cross the border in either direction with so much as a cap gun or a bottle of Advil. I don't care how much paperwork I have.
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Post by: dogma
chaos0xomega wrote:Yes travelling through those countries was a dumb move, but nobody gets arrested at the border (at least not for this long) for attempting to follow the law. There might be more to the story but ive seen this enough times to know there probably isnt and there doesnt need to be.
I don't know Mexican law, but its entirely possible that the way legal violations are handled at the border is left to the discretion of the officials present at the time.
I also suspect that there is more to this story, as regardless of Argentine residency the other veteran was also a US citizen and could just as easily have been found liable for possession of the weapon. If you have the opportunity to acquire two hostages instead of one, why not do it?
chaos0xomega wrote:
You realize the guy is basically in prison for no other reason than improperly filed paperwork? Its probably a difference of a couple inches in the measurement... its like... being sent to prison because your drivers license says your eyes are green instead of hazel.
Yes, and if that's the law of the land then I don't see a problem.
It is not the duty of the United States to grant its citizens exemptions from imprisonment according to the law of the country in question. If you intend to travel to a foreign country, you must obey foreign law. If you don't like the way that law is enforced, then don't travel to that country.
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Post by: djones520
Kid_Kyoto wrote:So... turns out Americans have to obey the laws of other countries when they're in there.
Even if they're ex-military?
Even if they're nice guys who like to surf?
Even if what they had is legal in the US?
Yes, that is in fact true.
Just like former Mexican soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into the US, former US soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into Mexico.
As for whether the sentence is appropriate or what the #$%^ he's chained to a bed, that's a different issue relating to how Mexico treats prisoners but yeah, they were perfectly right to arrest him.
I really hope you come back in here and recant on this, because you just lost a lot of cool points in my book. Read the story next time please.
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Post by: Maelstrom808
Not to mention we are talking about one of the most corrupt countries in the western hemisphere by all appearances...okay maybe the two most corrupt countries
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The way I understand the scenario is that the US Customs and Border agent told them they needed to fill in a registration form and pay a fee, at the US border, then give the registration to the Mexican border agents. The Mexicans didn't see the weapon until their border.
What I don't see is why the Mexicans didn't just make the guy turn around and go back. He was hardly smuggling the gun if he gave them a registration for it. They had discretion whether to admit him to the country or not.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
 Kilkrazy wrote:
What I don't see is why the Mexicans didn't just make the guy turn around and go back. He was hardly smuggling the gun if he gave them a registration for it. They had discretion whether to admit him to the country or not.
You can't ransom someone who isn't there.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?
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Post by: Bromsy
Yeah, this really stops being a story about quirky foreign justice when they start trying to extort money from you using death threats. Then it starts being about being kidnapped.
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Post by: Hordini
Kilkrazy wrote:Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?
I don't know why the US border agents would need to be involved. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Bromsy wrote:Yeah, this really stops being a story about quirky foreign justice when they start trying to extort money from you using death threats. Then it starts being about being kidnapped.
Yeah, exactly. Is the part where they put him in a cartel-controlled wing of the prison and started calling his family telling them to wire money to a Western Union account part of the Mexican law he should have been following too?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
They failed to give the correct information to the traveller, which provided the pretext for him to be arrested.
This could have been simple incompetence, of course, but the same could be said at each point of the chain.
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Post by: djones520
Kilkrazy wrote:They failed to give the correct information to the traveller, which provided the pretext for him to be arrested.
This could have been simple incompetence, of course, but the same could be said at each point of the chain.
Was it really incorrect information? It's almost like your saying a dirty mexican cop couldn't be a part of this situation...
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Kilkrazy wrote:Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?
Nope just know how Mexican cops work. Which is why the US Border Agent gave the individual in question the information he did. Because that shotgun is legal, and the procedure the individual was following was the proper procedure to take to bring the weapon into the country. We can safely assume this individual gave the Marine the right information because his entire job is knowing how to get you and your stuff in and out of Mexico legally and how Mexican and US law interacts.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
We don't know. The point at issue is the length of the shotgun barrel.
It's almost like you are saying a clean american cop couldn't be part of this situation.
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Post by: Ouze
chaos0xomega wrote:You realize the guy is basically in prison for no other reason than improperly filed paperwork? Its probably a difference of a couple inches in the measurement... its like... being sent to prison because your drivers license says your eyes are green instead of hazel.
Yeah, no. A "couple of inches in measurement" will get you sent to jail in this country - it's a serious felony. A 2-inch short, 16" shotgun barrel can get you 10 years without the appropriate stamps.
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Post by: Palindrome
Its proving difficult to find any information on this other than the origianl (biased) article.
The moral of this story is; don't go on holiday with a shotgun.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
chaos0xomega wrote:Kyoto did you read a single sentence of the article? He was carrying paperwork and following procedure to carry the weapon across the border. I dont know if youve ever been in a "third world" (northern mexico certainly qualifies) country, crooked and corrupt cops that do this sort of thing in order to extort money, etc. are the norm. Generally speaking, if he has paperwork for it and is attempting to bring a weapon into a country LEGALLY, standard procedure would be to confiscate the weapon and let him off with a warning, maybe detain them temporarily, NOT arrest them and send them to prison.
Let's see The reason might seem ludicrous. Hammar took a six-decade-old shotgun into Mexico. The .410 bore Sears & Roebuck shotgun once belonged to his great-grandfather. The firearm had been handed down through the generations, and it had become almost a part of Hammar, suitable for shooting birds and rabbits.
But Mexican prosecutors who looked at the disassembled relic in the 1972 Winnebago motor home dismissed the U.S. registration papers Hammar had filled out. They charged him with a serious crime: possession of a weapon restricted for use to Mexico’s armed forces.
...
The issue of the shotgun came up near the border.
“I told him that we probably shouldn’t take the shotgun with us,” McDonough said. “And he said, ‘No, I’m going to get it cleared with customs at the gate.’ So I said, ‘That’s fine. As long as it’s legit.’ ”
The Customs and Border Protection agent said it was all right to take the shotgun, McDonough said, adding that the agent told them: “ ‘All you have to do is register it.’ So they gave us a piece of paper and said, ‘This is your registration. You’ve got to pay this much.’ They gave us the piece of paper to give to the Mexican authorities.”
According to the article he had US registration for the gun and papers from US CBP. Nothing about a Mexican registration for the gun. US Customs cannot give someone permission to bring a gun into another country. Even his friend thought this was a bad idea. I live in Trinidad, I've lived in Guyana and the PRC and y'know what I learned, you fething better follow the laws of the country you're in, not the laws of your home country. Trinidad for example does not allow people to import cameoflauge clothing. At all. Strange law, I'm sure they have their reasons so y'know what, I don't. Same with swords. The punishment seems harsh, and sure there might be corruption but at the end of day millions of Americans travel to Mexico every year without trouble. I bet they're not insisting on carrying shotguns when they do. Oh and...
Frantic, the Hammars contacted U.S. diplomats, who helped get their son out of a general cellblock into solitary confinement. They didn’t pay the extortion. Nor did they speak to the news media until now.
“He was housed in a wing controlled by the drug cartel,” said Eddie Varon-Levy, a Mexican lawyer hired by the family.
...
So far, Hammar’s parents have gotten little help from U.S. diplomats.
“They take a real hands-off approach. Unless your life is at threat, they aren’t going to do anything,” Olivia Hammar said.
So which is it? Did US Diplomats save his life by getting him away from the drug cartel or did they offer little help? Cause y'know all an Embassy can do is make sure their rights UNDER LOCAL LAW are observed. They can't spring people from jail. This article has a huge chip on its shoulder and all kinds of logical errors the big one being this idea that Americans can take guns into foreign countries as long as they're old, or used for shooting birds or the American in question is a great guy. Automatically Appended Next Post: Where does it say this? Where? He had documents from US Customs and Border Patrol, who are not the Mexican government. Did he research Mexican gun laws? Talk to a Mexican consulate? Automatically Appended Next Post: yellowfever wrote:I dont know why Americans have to keep putting up with Mexico's bull crap. They get all kinds of hook ups on our side but Americans get boned in Mexico. It's bs.
djones520 wrote:[
I really hope you come back in here and recant on this, because you just lost a lot of cool points in my book. Read the story next time please.
These two side by side are why this article struck such a raw nerve.
If the article was something like "Hammar was arrested for breaking Mexican law but the way he's being treated is deplorable" I'd be with them. Instead it spends most of the time trying to delegitimize Mexican law and excuse Hammar. And then there are posters saying some Marines ought to just go down there, shoot up a Mexican jail and bust him out.
If anyone remembers anything I write here it should be this, obey the laws of the country you are in. Find out what they are before you cross the border, because yes, you are subject to them. Even in 3rd world countries, even in dictatorships you are subject to them. Some are irrational, some are downright evil, many are inconsistently applied, but yes, you must obey them.
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Post by: d3m01iti0n
Pull him out and flatten the entire useless country.
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Post by: Huffy
...and this is why we read the article instead of skimming over the posts of other users
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Post by: Seaward
Relapse wrote:I'm looking more into this story and finding out whoto write to about this guy. I f enough people do, it might light a fire under somebody's ass to get this man out of that hellhole
Definitely post it if you find someone. I'll write, know a lot of people who'll write.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
 Ouze wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:You realize the guy is basically in prison for no other reason than improperly filed paperwork? Its probably a difference of a couple inches in the measurement... its like... being sent to prison because your drivers license says your eyes are green instead of hazel.
Yeah, no. A "couple of inches in measurement" will get you sent to jail in this country - it's a serious felony. A 2-inch short, 16" shotgun barrel can get you 10 years without the appropriate stamps.
I know someone that was in a similar situation in the US, they sure as hell didnt go to prison. There was this thing called an investigation and a court hearing...
Kyoto, i've looked up Mexican gun law, the weapon is in the clear (aside from the technicality of differing barrel measurement) and he followed procedure on the US side of the border. It apparently isnt strictly necessary but highly recommended to have the written consent of appropriate government officials to import the weapon. Standard procedure for Mexican authorities when dealing with an unauthorized weapons is to confiscate the weapon and vehicle and deport the person for up to 1 year. What he is going through now seems to be the punishment reserved for smugglers which he is not if he declared it...
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Post by: MrDwhitey
This guy isn't in the US, and I assume he went to Mexico of his own free will?
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Post by: Huffy
 MrDwhitey wrote:This guy isn't in the US, and I assume he went to Mexico of his own free will?
Yep! and got arrested for being stupid....clearly reason enough to invade right?
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Post by: Seaward
 Huffy wrote:Yep! and got arrested for being stupid....clearly reason enough to invade right?
What did he do that was stupid or a violation of Mexican law?
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Post by: Mannahnin
Brought the shotgun, apparently.
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Post by: Mannahnin
So it seems, based on the info presented to us.
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Post by: Huffy
 Seaward wrote: Huffy wrote:Yep! and got arrested for being stupid....clearly reason enough to invade right?
What did he do that was stupid or a violation of Mexican law?
He was advised to not bring the gun....and to be honest bringing guns over any border is just asking for complications and possible misunderstandings. especially given the amount of violence mexico's been suffering
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Post by: Seaward
Huffy wrote:He was advised to not bring the gun....and to be honest bringing guns over any border is just asking for complications and possible misunderstandings. especially given the amount of violence mexico's been suffering
Personally, I wouldn't go into Mexico without a gun, myself, precisely because of the amount of violence Mexico's been suffering. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.
It's certainly legal to bring firearms into Mexico - including shotguns, as long as they meet barrel length requirements and aren't anything beyond 12 gauge - but whether or not this guy had the necessary temporary permit is up in the air.
Regardless, if the story about being kept chained to his bed in solitary and ransomed is true, I don't much care if he had the permit or not. That's pretty indefensible on the part of Mexican authorities.
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Post by: Relapse
chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah man, invade and annex I say, just like we should have at the end of the Mexican-American War!
To be fair, I live in a primarily Latino neighborhood and the Mexicans here hate what is going on down there as much or more than most on this board do. Automatically Appended Next Post: Seaward wrote: Huffy wrote:He was advised to not bring the gun....and to be honest bringing guns over any border is just asking for complications and possible misunderstandings. especially given the amount of violence mexico's been suffering
Personally, I wouldn't go into Mexico without a gun, myself, precisely because of the amount of violence Mexico's been suffering. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.
It's certainly legal to bring firearms into Mexico - including shotguns, as long as they meet barrel length requirements and aren't anything beyond 12 gauge - but whether or not this guy had the necessary temporary permit is up in the air.
Regardless, if the story about being kept chained to his bed in solitary and ransomed is true, I don't much care if he had the permit or not. That's pretty indefensible on the part of Mexican authorities.
From what I get told, I wouldn't go to Mexico with or without a gun, but you are correct about the whole chained to a bunk thing. I wonder if it was done as part of standard procedure for any new prisoner? I'll ask some people I know that worked with law enforcement down there.
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Post by: Bromsy
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
If the article was something like "Hammar was arrested for breaking Mexican law but the way he's being treated is deplorable" I'd be with them. Instead it spends most of the time trying to delegitimize Mexican law and excuse Hammar. And then there are posters saying some Marines ought to just go down there, shoot up a Mexican jail and bust him out.
If anyone remembers anything I write here it should be this, obey the laws of the country you are in. Find out what they are before you cross the border, because yes, you are subject to them. Even in 3rd world countries, even in dictatorships you are subject to them. Some are irrational, some are downright evil, many are inconsistently applied, but yes, you must obey them.
I would say him being put into a prison run by a drug cartel, handcuffed to a bed, and the people running the prison either calling his folks and attempting to extort money via death threats or allowing it to happen does a fairly good job of 'delegitimizing Mexican law'. A point you continue to avoid addressing. That stops being a legitimate punishment for breaking a law, and becomes more crime. I am fairly certain that Mexico has laws against kidnapping and extortion. Maybe not enforced strictly, but they're probably on the books. Is this one of those 'inconsistently applied laws' that are still okay because it's their country?
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
chaos0xomega wrote:
Kyoto, i've looked up Mexican gun law, the weapon is in the clear (aside from the technicality of differing barrel measurement) and he followed procedure on the US side of the border. It apparently isnt strictly necessary but highly recommended to have the written consent of appropriate government officials to import the weapon. Standard procedure for Mexican authorities when dealing with an unauthorized weapons is to confiscate the weapon and vehicle and deport the person for up to 1 year. What he is going through now seems to be the punishment reserved for smugglers which he is not if he declared it...
I'm not this guy's lawyer nor an expert on Mexican gun law. With luck he'll be found not guilty, on the face of it the punishment seems excessive.
It's the attitude of the article and some posters here that hits a raw nerve. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bromsy wrote:
I would say him being put into a prison run by a drug cartel, handcuffed to a bed, and the people running the prison either calling his folks and attempting to extort money via death threats or allowing it to happen does a fairly good job of 'delegitimizing Mexican law'. A point you continue to avoid addressing. That stops being a legitimate punishment for breaking a law, and becomes more crime. I am fairly certain that Mexico has laws against kidnapping and extortion. Maybe not enforced strictly, but they're probably on the books. Is this one of those 'inconsistently applied laws' that are still okay because it's their country?
From my very first post:
As for whether the sentence is appropriate or what the #$%^ he's chained to a bed, that's a different issue relating to how Mexico treats prisoners but yeah, they were perfectly right to arrest him.
But calling an arrest a 'kidnapping' is out of line. No one disputes that he was arrested legally.
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Post by: Seaward
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But calling an arrest a 'kidnapping' is out of line. No one disputes that he was arrested legally.
I don't know enough about the arrest to know if he was arrested legally. If people are actually calling his parents and demanding money for his release, I think it's a hilariously ill-conceived defense to claim it's not kidnapping.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Hmm
It's not if prisons everywhere have gang problems is it.....
And there's no proof that whoever called his parents had any influence over the prison or what happened there.
It's quite plausable a criminal in the prison talked to friends on the outside and said
'there's a foreign prisoner in here, I bet we could scam money out of his family'
There COULD be drug cartel involvement,
there COULD be gang involvement,
It COULD even be a scam by the family to try and get him out (I'm NOT saying it is, just that from the info we are given it's a possibility)
from what we've given we just don't know
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Post by: Bromsy
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Hmm
It's not if prisons everywhere have gang problems is it.....
And there's no proof that whoever called his parents had any influence over the prison or what happened there.
It's quite plausable a criminal in the prison talked to friends on the outside and said
'there's a foreign prisoner in here, I bet we could scam money out of his family'
There COULD be drug cartel involvement,
there COULD be gang involvement,
It COULD even be a scam by the family to try and get him out (I'm NOT saying it is, just that from the info we are given it's a possibility)
from what we've given we just don't know
“He was housed in a wing controlled by the drug cartel,” said Eddie Varon-Levy, a Mexican lawyer hired by the family.
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Post by: Palindrome
Bromsy wrote:
“He was housed in a wing controlled by the drug cartel,” said Eddie Varon-Levy, a Mexican lawyer hired by the family.
True? False? This statement is after all from the lawyer hired by the family who have an interest in making the situation appear worse than it may actually be.
All that we have to go on are a handful of dubious newspaper articles. If there was something more sinister going on why is it so hard to find this story via google, surely this is the thing that Fox would be all over like flies round gak.
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Post by: azazel the cat
Kilkrazy wrote:Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?
No, this would likely be a crime of opportunity from the Mexican side.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:Do you envision a conspiracy between the US border agents, the Mexican agents and the Mexican prison guards, to lure unsuspecting travellers into prison to be held for ransom?
Nope just know how Mexican cops work. Which is why the US Border Agent gave the individual in question the information he did. Because that shotgun is legal, and the procedure the individual was following was the proper procedure to take to bring the weapon into the country. We can safely assume this individual gave the Marine the right information because his entire job is knowing how to get you and your stuff in and out of Mexico legally and how Mexican and US law interacts.
Uh, no, it's actually not. The US border agent's entire job is knowing how to get you and your stuff in and out the USA. There is a very, very big difference.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Seaward wrote: Kid_Kyoto wrote:
But calling an arrest a 'kidnapping' is out of line. No one disputes that he was arrested legally.
I don't know enough about the arrest to know if he was arrested legally. If people are actually calling his parents and demanding money for his release, I think it's a hilariously ill-conceived defense to claim it's not kidnapping.
The Mexican border guards arrest you and hand you over to the state police.
The state police hand you over to the federal police.
The federal police hand you over to the internal security bureau.
The internal security bureau hands you over to the prison guard.
The prison guard put you on a wing.
Someone in the wing calls your parents for $1,800 ransom. They may be connected with the Nigerian prince whose wife has connections in an oil company and needs to recover £120 millions of blood diamonds from Switzerland and will pay 5% commission if you will front the deal with a few hundred.
You can see here there is an obvious direct link with the US border agents who gave you wrong advice about your gun registration.
The border agents are federal employees. Obama is in charge of the federal government.
Clearly it is a massive kidnap conspiracy by the president to supplement his salary.
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Post by: Seaward
Kilkrazy wrote:Clearly it is a massive kidnap conspiracy by the president to supplement his salary.
Would you like some examples of cartel violence directed at gringos with Mexican authorities looking the other way?
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Seaward wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:Clearly it is a massive kidnap conspiracy by the president to supplement his salary.
Would you like some examples of cartel violence directed at gringos with Mexican authorities looking the other way?
Or some of the numerous examples of corruption, and kidnapping/ransom by Mexican authorities? Having to pay your way out of trouble is the law of the land down there.
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Post by: d-usa
And locking up foreigners for breaking any law and throwing the book at them is an American tradition.
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Post by: dogma
Also, drive through some of the most dangerous places for American citizens in the world.
This reminds me of some of the backlash from the movie Into the Wild whereby several survival experts stated that Christopher McCandless basically committed suicide by nature.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
One other thing that really bugged me.
They didn't know where they would end up and wanted to 'live off the grid' somewhere in Central America.
Were they going to get visas and residency permits?
Americans can enter most places in the region without a visa but not to live.
Needless to say the punishment should not be 4 years in a Mexican jail but the article conveys a certain sense of '#$%& the rules'. And I imagine the police were not too happy hear an armed combat vet explain he was just headed south to live off the grid for a while.
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Post by: d-usa
If you want to find the laws about bringing weapons into another country and what paperwork you might need you should probably go to a consulate and not actually enter a foreign country known for having a cartel run border region without having everything triple checked.
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Post by: Seaward
 dogma wrote:This reminds me of some of the backlash from the movie Into the Wild whereby several survival experts stated that Christopher McCandless basically committed suicide by nature.
He did. Automatically Appended Next Post: d-usa wrote:If you want to find the laws about bringing weapons into another country and what paperwork you might need you should probably go to a consulate and not actually enter a foreign country known for having a cartel run border region without having everything triple checked.
It's still not clear he didn't have the correct paperwork.
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Post by: d-usa
It's pretty clear that he got some papers from a US border guard, whose job responsibility does not include making sure US citizens have the correct paperwork for Mexico.
The story makes it pretty clear he winged it with this idea to just bring a shotgun into Mexico, and it doesn't even make it very clear that it would be a legal weapon if he had paperwork.
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Post by: Seaward
d-usa wrote:It's pretty clear that he got some papers from a US border guard, whose job responsibility does not include making sure US citizens have the correct paperwork for Mexico.
The story makes it pretty clear he winged it with this idea to just bring a shotgun into Mexico, and it doesn't even make it very clear that it would be a legal weapon if he had paperwork.
Mexican law allows anything 12 gauge and under, with a barrel length under 25 inches.
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Post by: dogma
This is relevant.
US Consulate, Tijuana wrote:Don’t bring firearms or ammunition across the border into Mexico.
Don’t carry a knife, even a small pocketknife, on your person in Mexico.
You may become one of dozens of U.S. Citizens who are arrested each month for unintentionally violating Mexico’s strict weapons laws.
If you are caught with firearms or ammunition in Mexico...
You will go to jail and your vehicle will be seized;
You will be separated from your family, friends, and your job, and likely suffer substantial financial hardship;
You will pay court costs and other fees ranging into the tens of thousands of dollars defending yourself;
You may get up to a 30-year sentence in a Mexican prison if found guilty.
If you carry a knife on your person in Mexico, even a pocketknife . . .
You may be arrested and charged with possession of a deadly weapon;
You may spend weeks in jail waiting for trial, and tens of thousands of dollars in attorney’s fees, court costs, and fines;
If convicted, you may be sentenced to up to five years in a Mexican prison.
Claiming not to know about the law will not get you leniency from a police officer or the judicial system. Leave your firearms, ammunition, and knives at home. Don’t bring them into Mexico.
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Post by: Bromsy
dogma wrote:This is relevant.
US Consulate, Tijuana wrote:Don’t bring firearms or ammunition across the border into Mexico.
Don’t carry a knife, even a small pocketknife, on your person in Mexico.
You may become one of dozens of U.S. Citizens who are arrested each month for unintentionally violating Mexico’s strict weapons laws.
If you are caught with firearms or ammunition in Mexico...
You will go to jail and your vehicle will be seized;
You will be separated from your family, friends, and your job, and likely suffer substantial financial hardship;
You will pay court costs and other fees ranging into the tens of thousands of dollars defending yourself;
You may get up to a 30-year sentence in a Mexican prison if found guilty.
If you carry a knife on your person in Mexico, even a pocketknife . . .
You may be arrested and charged with possession of a deadly weapon;
You may spend weeks in jail waiting for trial, and tens of thousands of dollars in attorney’s fees, court costs, and fines;
If convicted, you may be sentenced to up to five years in a Mexican prison.
Claiming not to know about the law will not get you leniency from a police officer or the judicial system. Leave your firearms, ammunition, and knives at home. Don’t bring them into Mexico.
He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."
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Post by: dogma
Bromsy wrote:
He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."
As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.
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Post by: Seaward
That's technically wrong, according to the Mexican customs website..
I'll admit chances are pretty good this dude didn't get the necessary permit from the necessary departments.
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Post by: dogma
Seaward wrote:That's technically wrong, according to the Mexican customs website..
I'll admit chances are pretty good this dude didn't get the necessary permit from the necessary departments.
Yeah, its definitely hyperbolic, most likely to dissuade people from bringing weapons into Mexico in order to avoid cases much like the present one.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
d-usa wrote:It's pretty clear that he got some papers from a US border guard, whose job responsibility does not include making sure US citizens have the correct paperwork for Mexico.
The story makes it pretty clear he winged it with this idea to just bring a shotgun into Mexico, and it doesn't even make it very clear that it would be a legal weapon if he had paperwork.
If you're looking to be outraged, the CBP folks who are going around giving Mexican legal advice deserve some outrage. According to the article they've gotten 2 people arrested by telling them they'd be fine.
American border patrol agents are NOT Mexican lawyers. 
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Post by: Seaward
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
If you're looking to be outraged, the CBP folks who are going around giving Mexican legal advice deserve some outrage. According to the article they've gotten 2 people arrested by telling them they'd be fine.
American border patrol agents are NOT Mexican lawyers.
I think I'll continue to be outraged at the guys who actually put him on the phone with his parents to make him beg them to send money, personally.
It's a shame he wasn't an acting station chief, he could've killed a couple guys and been out by now. Contrary to popular belief, we do indeed spring people from foreign jail sometimes.
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Post by: Bromsy
dogma wrote: Bromsy wrote:
He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."
As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.
So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?
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Post by: d-usa
Bromsy wrote: dogma wrote: Bromsy wrote:
He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."
As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.
So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?
Pretty much. The place to ask that would have been a consulate.
Should Mexicans who want to move here to live off the grid and bring their weapons with them just show up and see if that's cool, or should they get the needed paperwork handled at a US consulate on Mexico?
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote: Bromsy wrote: dogma wrote: Bromsy wrote:
He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."
As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.
So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?
Pretty much. The place to ask that would have been a consulate.
Should Mexicans who want to move here to live off the grid and bring their weapons with them just show up and see if that's cool, or should they get the needed paperwork handled at a US consulate on Mexico?
I think showing up at a customs station at the border and asking questions would be pretty much okay. You can always deny them entry and whatnot, without y'know, arresting them then handing them off to drug cartels to ransom - if we are talking reasonable responses here.
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Post by: d-usa
A border is for crossing, it's not an information post.
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Post by: dogma
Bromsy wrote:
So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?
I see a distinction, but the Mexican state apparently does not. As Kyoto said, even his friend said it was foolish and the law of the land, no matter how absurd, must be obeyed. And as someone who has traveled abroad quite a bit, I agree.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Ive traveled abroad a bit myself. Its been my experience that in most civilized nations if a customs/border agent takes offense at something you might be bringing with you they confiscate it and send you on your way (unless of course youre doing something strictly illegal, given that gun ownership is a right in Mexicos Constitution, it isnt exactly strictly illegal... not like say, transporting a wmd or a ton of heroine).
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote:A border is for crossing, it's not an information post.
No, actually a border is not for crossing, it is a place where two different things meet. Generally, a border between two nations that is controlled is used to keep out unwanted things, not to use as a goddamned checkpoint to arrest people to be used for ransom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_checkpoint
"A border checkpoint is a place, generally between two countries, where travellers or goods are inspected. Authorization often is required to enter a country through its borders. Access-controlled borders often have a limited number of checkpoints where they can be crossed without legal sanctions. Arrangements may be formed to allow or mandate less restrained crossings (e.g. Schengen Agreement). Land border checkpoints can be contrasted with the customs and immigration facilities at seaports, international airports, and other ports of entry.
Checkpoints generally serve two purposes:
To prevent entrance of individuals who are either undesirable (e.g., criminals or others who pose threats) or are simply unauthorized to enter.
To prevent entrance of goods that are illegal, subject to restriction or to collect tariffs.
Checkpoints are usually manned by a uniformed service (sometimes referred to as customs service or border Patrol Agents)."
I mean seriously, your position is that anyone who shows up to the border and isn't 100% compliant with the law of the nation they are attempting to enter should not be turned away, they should be arrested and held for ransom by drug lords whilst chained to a bed? Just to be clear.
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Post by: d-usa
So Mexicans arrested at the US checkpoint with weapons or drugs are told to turn around and go back to Mexico?
We don't arrest them for bringing illegal things into the United States?
My bad...
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Post by: Bromsy
dogma wrote: Bromsy wrote:
So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?
I see a distinction, but the Mexican state apparently does not. As Kyoto said, even his friend said it was foolish and the law of the land, no matter how absurd, must be obeyed. And as someone who has traveled abroad quite a bit, I agree.
Not saying it wasn't a stupid call. Generally marines are not renowned for their intellectual acumen (joshing). I really am curious which statutes of Mexican law advocate handing over control of prisoners to drug lords and allowing them to ransom them. And if somehow that is the law of the land, thinking that it is okay is a morally bankrupt position. Automatically Appended Next Post: d-usa wrote:So Mexicans arrested at the US checkpoint with weapons or drugs are told to turn around and go back to Mexico?
We don't arrest them for bringing illegal things into the United States?
My bad...
Find me a story of a mexican with a 60 year old .410 being handed over to the Hells Angels to use as slave labor and your point there might have some merit.
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Post by: d-usa
And there are two separate events here:
One is being arrested by a border guard, which could very well be 100% legitimate.
The other is a cartel run prison. Which has nothing to do with the weapon offense.
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote:And there are two separate events here:
One is being arrested by a border guard, which could very well be 100% legitimate.
The other is a cartel run prison. Which has nothing to do with the weapon offense.
Correct, the Cartel run prison thing is the part that I am mostly angry about - that and the fact that some people on here seem to think that it is okay for this to happen because 'that's how it's done in mexico.'
My other, lesser concern is that someone driving up to your border and saying - hey, my guys said that you'd be okay with this - points at disassembled shotgun - they gave me this paperwork to give you. Should not result in an arrest. It should result in confiscation or denial of entry. The situation could be the result of any number of things, which is why I am feeling more lenient about that point - it could be some overzealous rookies first day, it could be someone who is bitter about americans because a missionary from their country was beheaded in afghanistan. Or it could be a deliberate scheme set up to funnel people into a jail run by a cartel. Don't really know on that score.
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Post by: d-usa
Or it could be a border guard for a country that is being bled dry by cartel violence who is not okay with some American driving up and violating their laws.
It's not their job to make sure you educate yourself about their laws and to make sure you have the correct paperwork before entering.
Again, we arrest plenty of people on our side of the border who can give you the same story.
Apart from the cartel run prisons who put you to work, we got corporate run prisons to do that for us.
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote:
Again, we arrest plenty of people on our side of the border who can give you the same story.
Link me a couple.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
d-usa wrote: Bromsy wrote: dogma wrote: Bromsy wrote:
He was hardly caught with the weapon in Mexico now though, was he? He was trying to cross the border and said "Hey, I want to bring this with me, is it cool?" If the weapon was illegal the border guards should have said "No, that weapon is illegal, you have to turn around and go home."
As far as I'm aware Mexican customs offices are within Mexican territory.
So there should be no difference showing up at the border and asking "I can bring this into your fine country, right?" and being caught lugging it around without permission? Is that a RaW thing or do you really see no distinction?
Pretty much. The place to ask that would have been a consulate.
Should Mexicans who want to move here to live off the grid and bring their weapons with them just show up and see if that's cool, or should they get the needed paperwork handled at a US consulate on Mexico?
They already do that, and they don't bother with normal border crossings.
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Post by: dogma
Not in the same sense as it is in the US. The Mexican Federal Government can basically restrict ownership at will.
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Post by: d-usa
Really?
I am sorry, if you are willing to believe that no Mexican national ever showed up at our border and was caught with something and gave the "I thought it was okay/I had the correct paperwork/that guy said it was okay to bring my weapon/prescription/animal here" speech, and was arrested instead of being told to get his butt back to Mexico then I am not even going to bothers to google anything to engage that level of willful denial.
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote:Really?
I am sorry, if you are willing to believe that no Mexican national ever showed up at our border and was caught with something and gave the "I thought it was okay/I had the correct paperwork/that guy said it was okay to bring my weapon/prescription/animal here" speech, and was arrested instead of being told to get his butt back to Mexico then I am not even going to bothers to google anything to engage that level of willful denial.
Oh, no sorry, I just thought that since you made statements like
d-usa wrote:
Again, we arrest plenty of people on our side of the border who can give you the same story.
You were actually speaking from specific knowledge. Instead of, you know, making up things and then phrasing them as declarative statements. I googled "Mexicans arrested for bringing a gun they thought was legal to a US border station." Strangely enough it didn't come up with anything. But feel free to disprove me instead of once again stating something you think must be true and then laying the burden of disproving it on me.
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Post by: d-usa
No, you are right. No Mexicans get arrested at our side of the border and they never tell the border guards that they didn't realize that they did anything wrong.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
d-usa wrote:No, you are right. No Mexicans get arrested at our side of the border and they never tell the border guards that they didn't realize that they did anything wrong.
Getting caught with a full auto AK and a couple kilos of cocaine tends to encourage one to be honest.
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Post by: AustonT
dogma wrote:
Not in the same sense as it is in the US. The Mexican Federal Government can basically restrict ownership at will.
In theory their right is stronger, having been written into the constitution instead of amended into it. In practice private firearms ownership in Mexico is rare and extremely limited. Then again they practice near Romano-Sallic law there so who really knows wtf is legal.
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote:No, you are right. No Mexicans get arrested at our side of the border and they never tell the border guards that they didn't realize that they did anything wrong.
Wow, that is a winning argument. Instead of supporting your statement, lets branch off - build a man out of straw, and argue with that. How many of those Mexicans that we supposing - as apparently it is too much trouble to look up specific cases, and simply knowing that something is true is equally valid - pulled up to the border guards and said "Hey, the Mexican authorities said I could bring this, this thing that I am pointing at and declaring to you right now into your country."? What percentage of these Mexicans that we are conjuring whole from our imaginations were arrested on the spot?
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Post by: d-usa
It's simply not an argument worth having, so I submit myself to the fantasy that Mexicans pull up to our border all the time with questionable things to ask if its okay and then return to their homeland if it isn't.
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Post by: Seaward
d-usa wrote:It's simply not an argument worth having, so I submit myself to the fantasy that Mexicans pull up to our border all the time with questionable things to ask if its okay and then return to their homeland if it isn't.
I'm perfectly willing to grant that what the guy did was in all probability illegal.
The difference is, we don't hand said Mexicans over to the mafia and give them free reign to ransom the unknowing Mexican back to his or her parents while keeping him or her in inhumane conditions.
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote:It's simply not an argument worth having, so I submit myself to the fantasy that Mexicans pull up to our border all the time with questionable things to ask if its okay and then return to their homeland if it isn't.
Good. Your hyperbole wears on me.
d-usa wrote:And I never said that I agree with that part of what is happening.
But if you are going to one of the most corrupt places around, why would you even remotely risk yourself to be put into a situation like that? He doesn't deserve the cartel run prison, if he broke the law he should be in a civilized prison. But he was still dumb for putting himself into a situation where he could be arrested to begin with.
Did you see what she was wearing?
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Post by: d-usa
And I never said that I agree with that part of what is happening.
But if you are going to one of the most corrupt places around, why would you even remotely risk yourself to be put into a situation like that? He doesn't deserve the cartel run prison, if he broke the law he should be in a civilized prison. But he was still dumb for putting himself into a situation where he could be arrested to begin with. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bromsy wrote: d-usa wrote:It's simply not an argument worth having, so I submit myself to the fantasy that Mexicans pull up to our border all the time with questionable things to ask if its okay and then return to their homeland if it isn't.
Good. Your hyperbole wears on me.
Enjoy your hard earned Internet victory
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Post by: Bromsy
d-usa wrote:And I never said that I agree with that part of what is happening.
But if you are going to one of the most corrupt places around, why would you even remotely risk yourself to be put into a situation like that? He doesn't deserve the cartel run prison, if he broke the law he should be in a civilized prison. But he was still dumb for putting himself into a situation where he could be arrested to begin with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bromsy wrote: d-usa wrote:It's simply not an argument worth having, so I submit myself to the fantasy that Mexicans pull up to our border all the time with questionable things to ask if its okay and then return to their homeland if it isn't.
Good. Your hyperbole wears on me.
Enjoy your hard earned Internet victory
You don't win internet disagreements, you endure them.
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Post by: d-usa
And did you try to compare getting arrested at a border post for being in possession of a weapon and calling it a dumb decision with saying a woman was dumb for wearing that and that's why she got raped?
If not please feel free to explain the "did you see what she was wearing" statement.
Edit: it's not even worth it, checking out of this thread...
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Post by: Seaward
d-usa wrote:And I never said that I agree with that part of what is happening.
But if you are going to one of the most corrupt places around, why would you even remotely risk yourself to be put into a situation like that? He doesn't deserve the cartel run prison, if he broke the law he should be in a civilized prison. But he was still dumb for putting himself into a situation where he could be arrested to begin with.
That "part of what is happening" is what the people I find comprehensible are a tad upset about. It's why many countries won't extradite to us, regardless of the law broken, due to our use of the death penalty in some cases.
I once spent a none-too-pleasant four hours in a police station in Moscow because I'd left the hotel without my passport, and thus couldn't produce my visa when requested by some fine upstanding members of the militsya who heard me speaking English. A 'fine' settled the issue, ultimately, but had it not, I certainly would have hoped somebody back home would have made some noise rather than gone, "While I don't agree with the reenactment of Midnight Express they're performing on the guy, I am a sophisticated and worldly individual who acknowledges that he was asking for it."
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Post by: Ratbarf
It's simply not an argument worth having, so I submit myself to the fantasy that Mexicans pull up to our border all the time with questionable things to ask if its okay and then return to their homeland if it isn't.
Now I don't know about Mexico, but Canadians do that all the time.
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Post by: Cheesecat
 Ratbarf wrote:It's simply not an argument worth having, so I submit myself to the fantasy that Mexicans pull up to our border all the time with questionable things to ask if its okay and then return to their homeland if it isn't.
Now I don't know about Mexico, but Canadians do that all the time.
Yeah, but that's because were friendly. 
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Post by: Frazzled
Kid_Kyoto wrote:So... turns out Americans have to obey the laws of other countries when they're in there.
Even if they're ex-military?
Even if they're nice guys who like to surf?
Even if what they had is legal in the US?
Yes, that is in fact true.
Just like former Mexican soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into the US, former US soldiers can't carry any weapon they want into Mexico.
As for whether the sentence is appropriate or what the #$%^ he's chained to a bed, that's a different issue relating to how Mexico treats prisoners but yeah, they were perfectly right to arrest him.
Mexican troops have crossed the border into the US. Yet strangely we didn't put them in jail or put them under the ground. Incursions happen on the border here with some frequency. Mexican cartels have army units on the payroll. Automatically Appended Next Post: chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah man, invade and annex I say, just like we should have at the end of the Mexican-American War!
Daer god why? Mexico is a hell hole. Thats why there are 20,000,000 Mexicans in the US now. Automatically Appended Next Post: dogma wrote:
No he wasn't. Per the story he filled out registration paperwork given to him by a US customs agent. He was then detained when he presented the paperwork to Mexican authorities at the border.
The only official that may have examined the paperwork prior to reaching the Mexican border was the US customs agent.
Moral of the story-don't go to Mexico. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thats harsh! sounds like a plan.
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Post by: Goliath
Seaward wrote:The difference is, we don't hand said Mexicans over to the mafia and give them free reign to ransom the unknowing Mexican back to his or her parents while keeping him or her in inhumane conditions.
No. but when you do, the mexican embassy calls and gets the guy moved away from the block with the Mafia.
Much like how the parents contacted the US embassy, and the embassy got Hammar moved from the general cellblock into solitary confinement.
As such, please stop using the present tense in regards to him being kept with the cartel members. It stopped happening. It even says so in the article, even if the article makes a point of passing that detail as quickly as possible.
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Post by: Relapse
A bit of afollow up on the story. Anyone interested can go to the links and sign the petitions and get involved in getting him outta there.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/17/supporters-marine-jon-hammar-wage-social-media-campaign-to-win-his-freedom/?intcmp=obinsite
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Post by: Ouze
As an (additional) followup, he's being freed.
MIAMI (CBSMiami) – Jon Hammar, the 27-year-old former Marine from Palmetto Bay, is now back in the United States after spending almost five months imprisoned in Mexico.
Hammar was released Friday night from the Matamoros jail and driven over the U.S.-Mexico border into Brownsville, Texas.
The release was met with relief from the Hammar family.
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Post by: Seaward
Ouze wrote:As an (additional) followup, he's being freed.
MIAMI (CBSMiami) – Jon Hammar, the 27-year-old former Marine from Palmetto Bay, is now back in the United States after spending almost five months imprisoned in Mexico.
Hammar was released Friday night from the Matamoros jail and driven over the U.S.-Mexico border into Brownsville, Texas.
The release was met with relief from the Hammar family.
Awesome news.
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Post by: Relapse
Great news indeed.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Home for Christmas!
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Good to hear.
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Post by: Hordini
Nice to have a bit of good news!
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