For me most interesting part was Angron vs Russ in chapter 17 Russ’s Lesson....
Spoiler:
Obvious is that Angron won that duel/brawl, but I don't understand why did Russ spared his life,and wasn't going for the kill - I' mean he destroyed Magnus for much lesser things,so this is another turn on character view, so I'm starting to dislike him
*Lorgar explains things to Angron*
'We won - I beat up Russ and they ran away.'
'Russ had all of the guns pointed at you and you could have died. Then they left of their own accord.'
But, but, I beat up Russ and they ran away.'
Anyway, Russ was trying to take Angron in without killing him, he failed, Angron won the duel,Russ stood up and Angron was surrounded by SW who could shoot him down...then Russ like a don't use this term like this on Dakka please. Thanks. Reds8n retreats...
It appears that Russ was not there to kill Angron. Losing the duel just means that Russ might have been fighting "With his hands tied". Not killing him after the duel just supports the idea that Russ was not there to kill him.
Spoiler:
It is a rather interesting scene though. More so because Argron doesn't seem to realise that if Russ was sent to execute him he would have died there. Untill Lorgar tells him so.
^ Yeah, but you know people who dislike SW on this forum, they will use this as ultimate guide in ranking primarchs and completly disregard the goal of the battle....I'll bet with you on who will be the first....
This book starts out fun and entertaining, even if a little mindless, and then takes a huge crap just past the halfway point. This was probably better off having been an audio drama. Too little actually going on, and had to be inflated to fill out a novel. Kharn is horribly written. Inconsistent as hell. The Nails turn into a plot device that only seem to appear in the novel when the story needs them to.
Battles have too much happening in a vacuum. Like the Nails, things happen solely because the narrative needs them to, not because they make any sense in the greater context.
Final confrontation between Guilliman, Lorgar and Angron is the same way. Even worse because it feels completely shoehorned into the story to make an epic climax. Guilliman holds off both Lorgar and Angron for a little bit, and then when the story needs him to run away (since he can't die, and Angron needs to turn into a daemon prince), suddenly Angron is too much for him.
Guilliman's real powers revealed. The ability to be anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum at the exact moment he needs to be.
Agree with you @Sarge...I'm also little disappointed with the second part of the book (little boring and predictible), too bad, it had potential...Maybe ADB went a little over the top ...
Angel exterminatus is in my opinion much better book...
I preferred Angel Exterminatus as well but on the point of Papa Smurf holding off both Lorgar and Angron I think it was more of lorgars presence holding back angron as he wasn't able to go one on one with guilliman...the book is littered with the idea that only two of the primarchs stand a chance one on one with angron
Great book, great story, kharn not being a mindless killing machine was excellent and truly adds to the sad fact that he becomes one, it's nice to see the 30k contrast of kharn in this book and the 40k one in chosen of khorne, Magnus plays a great cameo in this book too, and the dialogue between him and lorgar is some of the best I've read 9/10
Haven't gotten to the book yet, but unless those Space Wolves were all armed with meltas and conversion beamers or something, it's unlikely they would have taken Angron down.
After all, Corax took a sustained barrage from several squads of Iron Warriors, including missiles, plasmaguns and lascannons all battering his armor. Eventually the weight of fire forced him to move, but he certainly wasn't insta-gibbed execution-style. I doubt the Wolves would have gotten more than a single salvo into Angron before he puréed everything in reach.
I'll have to read the book to make a final judgement call, but doesn't sound very promising so far.
Omegus wrote: Haven't gotten to the book yet, but unless those Space Wolves were all armed with meltas and conversion beamers or something, it's unlikely they would have taken Angron down.
After all, Corax took a sustained barrage from several squads of Iron Warriors, including missiles, plasmaguns and lascannons all battering his armor. Eventually the weight of fire forced him to move, but he certainly wasn't insta-gibbed execution-style. I doubt the Wolves would have gotten more than a single salvo into Angron before he puréed everything in reach.
I'll have to read the book to make a final judgement call, but doesn't sound very promising so far.
Dude don't delude yourself, I' know you dislike SW but please don't twist a freaking book chapter called "Russ's lesson" like some fanboy (which I don't think you are) ...
ADB wanted to show that primarchs aren't demi-gods,and that they can be killed - which is totaly different approach to heresy and I salute him for that...
I know guys will twist this maximally and I see tone of vs threads, but how Lorgar was explaining that to Angron is comic...
I respect your opinion on this forums very much - but read the book, and see the facts...
Also Fulgrim was sniped in "AE" and almost died...so Gav Thorpe could learn a thing or two from much better writers the he is....
I'm not twisting anything, like I said in my original post, I withhold final judgement until I read the book.
I just expressed doubts that a Primarch, particularly Angron, could be so easily dispatched unless those Wolves were packing some serious hardware. I mean, it would probably take Russ holding the guy down while a company of Marines pumped round after round down Angron's gullet.
Omegus wrote: I'm not twisting anything, like I said in my original post, I withhold final judgement until I read the book.
I just expressed doubts that a Primarch, particularly Angron, could be so easily dispatched unless those Wolves were packing some serious hardware. I mean, it would probably take Russ holding the guy down while a company of Marines pumped round after round down Angron's gullet.
But that's the beauty of the book - It's shows how SW were losing the battle because they went for "the throat" (tone of them), encircled Angron in the midst of the battle(described as best tactical move in history of the adeptus astartes) - which WE were trying to pierce but the circle was too thick...Lorgar explains that to Angron who won the duel against Russ ,who was trying to bring him alive ??? (this is a little stupid,I still don't understan that )
Anyway
Spoiler:
Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’
‘No.’ Lorgar was almost breathless in disbelief. ‘No, no, no. Angron, you stubborn fool. None of that matters.’
‘There were more dead Wolves on that field than dead World Eaters. That matters.’
That, thought Lorgar, was also arguable, but he let it pass. ‘Russ had you cold. You said you had him at your mercy, but he crawled free.’
‘He crawled.’ Angron chuckled again, making a meal of the word.
‘And when he rose, he had you surrounded. He could have killed you.’
‘He tried and failed.’
‘His men, Angron. His Legion could have killed you. Whether the Emperor ordered it or not, Russ spared your life. He didn’t retreat in shame, you arrogant…’ Lorgar sighed. ‘He was probably lamenting your thick skull all the way back to Terra, hoping you’d heed a rather consummate lesson in brotherhood and loyalty.
DarthMarko wrote: Dude don't delude yourself, I' know you dislike SW but please don't twist a freaking book chapter called "Russ's lesson" like some fanboy (which I don't think you are) ...
ADB wanted to show that primarchs aren't demi-gods,and that they can be killed - which is totaly different approach to heresy and I salute him for that...
I know guys will twist this maximally and I see tone of vs threads, but how Lorgar was explaining that to Angron is comic...
I respect your opinion on this forums very much - but read the book, and see the facts...
Also Fulgrim was sniped in "AE" and almost died...so Gav Thorpe could learn a thing or two from much better writers the he is....
Gav Thorpe lol.
Corax was wading through salvos of lascannon fire, missiles, plasma and gak in The First Heretic. A book Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote. The same guy who wrote Betrayer.
DarthMarko wrote: Dude don't delude yourself, I' know you dislike SW but please don't twist a freaking book chapter called "Russ's lesson" like some fanboy (which I don't think you are) ...
ADB wanted to show that primarchs aren't demi-gods,and that they can be killed - which is totaly different approach to heresy and I salute him for that...
I know guys will twist this maximally and I see tone of vs threads, but how Lorgar was explaining that to Angron is comic...
I respect your opinion on this forums very much - but read the book, and see the facts...
Also Fulgrim was sniped in "AE" and almost died...so Gav Thorpe could learn a thing or two from much better writers the he is....
Gav Thorpe lol.
Corax was wading through salvos of lascannon fire, missiles, plasma and gak in The First Heretic. A book Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote. The same guy who wrote Betrayer.
Gav Thorpe...lol x 3 ("Deliverance lost")
What ADB wanted in this book is show the Wolves as emperor's executioners (yeah he supports that- check his FB page) ,but not as some 12 year old kid anti gene super duper astartes, rather as cunning regular dudes who will go for the win even if it means losing a battle...very wolfy...
That is the whole point of the chapter 17...Anyway I like this new approach....
That is uh, not what I said, I don't know why you're bringing that up.
I am pointing out that in First Heretic, ADB wrote Corax as able to power through salvos of heavy weapons fire as he slaughtered Word Bearers, so if a bunch of Space Marines, Wolves or otherwise, armed with only their basic weaponry had the means to take down a Primarch, ADB is contradicting himself.
I mean, I also haven't read the book so can't make any educated statement, but was just noting that ADB himself portrayed Primarchs as nigh-invulnerable demigods of war.
This is a little different approach (or down to earth way)...Anyway tone astartes and elite bodyguard encircleing you and pointing heavy guns at your gak + Russ standing on his feet doesn't give you much odds...
What is good, Russ admited that Angron would won this in arena, but on the battlefield - never...How Lorgar is explainin' that to a dumb Angron is hilarious...Only thing what bugs me why Russ didn't go for the kill from the start (oooo poooor Empy and his judment of characters ),and now I feel sorry for Magnus...
Void__Dragon wrote: Yeah, Russ not going for the kill from the start is the dumbest gak I've heard in a while.
Magnus never got that much mercy, and Angron is a dog who needs to be put down. Whereas Magnus was by that point a broken man.
There is a lot of Magnus and Lorgar interesting conversations in the book...(Lorgar taunting Magnus who is still undecided to join them)...In fact this is IMHO best part of the book...
I' still think this is not ADB- best book...but I'll give it 3.99/5....
I'm over the inconsistent characterization of the Wolves, even when written by the same author. Currently, my contempt is reserved for the Imperial Fists.
As for Gav "I like emo gak and wish I was an elf" Thorpe, I'm guessing Marko is referencing Raven's Flight, where Corax was curb-stomping Iron Warriors as thoroughly as he did the Word Bearers and Lorgar in First Heretic.
Omegus wrote: Yes, that doesn't make sense considering Angron is bragging about there being more dead Wolves than World Eaters.
Wolves were losing because they thined they ranks and went on Angron...Here is the authors note
Spoiler:
Same with the Wolves: where Russ and his Legion drive the World Eaters to a bitter stalemate, perhaps losing the battle of pride, but succinctly and effectively winning the war. Going for the throat, if you will. Very wolfy.
It just show that pack menatlity is very effective...But Angron is very, very dumb - Lorgar get's mad when he tries to explain things too him....
After...Magnus is in his new body of light and still undecided should he join the traitors....Lorgar is pushing him with c-god theory...
Russ and Angron is before...
Void__Dragon wrote: It's weird how Magnus, as a Daemon Prince, still apparently has a choice in the matter.
Magnus is not random Daemon Prince 28,376. He was Chaos' first choice for "Warmaster" and likely has the power to remain independant of the Chaos Gods if he chooses. he does not even think of the Chaos Gods as gods but just super powerfull warp beings.
I actually thought the best part of the book was how the World Eaters keep looking at the "Night of the Wolf" as demonstrating their abilities as combatants but with undertones of extreme jealousy for the Wolves.
My favourite part of it was probably Lorgars reasoning behind The Angel staying loyal...all the while feeling that he (Sanguinius) may already be somewhat corrupted
If he had been believable, that would be one thing. But he's not. People are mistaking ADB's attempt add complexity to the character by making him a diametric opposite of his 40K self, with actual good character writng. I actually have no problem with the idea of Kharn as a voice of reason until he was corrupted. It's even been given precedent in earlier short stories. The problem is, that portrayal is very weakly done. My biggest issue with Kharn is with the Butcher's Nails. They are inconsistent, and they make him inconsistent. ADB was trying too hard to make Kharn a philosophical foil to Argel Tal, but the problem was, that required him to ignore the stated effects of the Nails to do so. There's one crucial quote that really breaks it all down:
"So Khârn killed, just as his brothers always killed, because killing meant feeling something beyond slow, unfocused spite."
You know, or all the other stuff he's been feeling before this. This is the biggest failing of the entire book, and also why it's just not a good idea to write stories that focus too heavily on the World Eaters. They're the Orks of Space Marines. They don't make any sense, but their antics are entertaining. The Butcher's Nails in Betrayer are never doing the same thing, and only exist as a narrative device, as opposed to a part of the actual character. There's very little internal conflict with Kharn. Sometimes he's completely okay, and other moments he's losing his mind to the Nails and talking about how hard it is to resist them (even though the story never bears this out). I mean, Angryon is a boring, two dimensional cardstock villain of a character, but at least he's consistent. Kharn's third dimension keeps changing shape.
But pretty much all of Betrayer suffers from this sort of effect. Things across the entire novel only happen because the storyline needs them to, and not because they make any sense in the grander picture. The fight between Lorgar, Angryon, and Guilliman, for example. At one point, Guilliman is fending off both Angryon and Lorgar at the same time, only losing a little bit of ground. The second that he needs to be defeated (because Angryon needs to turn into a daemon prince, and so Guilliman can run away, since he can't die in the events of the story), suddenly Angryon is way too strong and way too powerful for him. Kharn and the World Eaters come up against a Roman Shield wall formation (we'll avoid talking about how silly that is, lol), Kharn recognizes that they need to defeat it with the first charge, but that fails and they are beaten back by it. Kharn gets incredibly angry, and suddenly then that formation is easily dispersed. These are just a couple examples, because it isn't worth listing more. Such as the Imperator Titan's weaponry not being able to fire until the exact moment it can't, or it entire retinue of supporting Titans disappear- wait, I said I'd stop.
Overall, this novel should have been an audio drama, or heck, even a longer short story in an anthology. There was way too little actually happening in this story, with a ton of excess words written about those things. Guilliman displays his true powers: that of being able to be anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum at the exact moment he needs to be for the same of added drama (see the end of Angel Exterminatus too).
I will say that the Ultramarines were written rather well, even though ultimately they, like many things, were only as strong as they needed to be in any giv- wait. I said I'd stop. I was quite amused that ADB co-opted my oft-used title of "The Good Son" as Guilliman's archetype when Angryon calls him "Perfect Son." I know for a fact that ADB has read my commentaries on the nature of Guilliman, so I appreciate the nod, lol.
Let me be clear though. This isn't a heavy criticism of ADB. I really think he did a great job characterizing Lorgar in TFH and Aurelian. This novel felt rushed, and under-planned. I also think that trying to tackle the World Eaters in a full length novel, while ambitious, was biting off more than could be chewed. Plus, I think he wanted to write some big battles (he hasn't participated in the major ones talked about so far, like Isstvan, Calth, etc). And I don't know if he has the same kind of big picture battle knowledge/awareness of guys like Abnett. Too much happens in a vacuum in Betrayer. Too many events that have no cause/effect relationship in the grander scheme of things. Again, things just happening, because they need to happen for the story.
You know, or all the other stuff he's been feeling before this. This is the biggest failing of the entire book, and also why it's just not a good idea to write stories that focus too heavily on the World Eaters. They're the Orks of Space Marines. They don't make any sense, but their antics are entertaining. The Butcher's Nails in Betrayer are never doing the same thing, and only exist as a narrative device, as opposed to a part of the actual character. There's very little internal conflict with Kharn. Sometimes he's completely okay, and other moments he's losing his mind to the Nails and talking about how hard it is to resist them (even though the story never bears this out). I mean, Angryon is a boring, two dimensional cardstock villain of a character, but at least he's consistent. Kharn's third dimension keeps changing shape.
I think this was done on purpose and shows how the butcher's nails are destroying the World Eaters. Like how a crazy person doesn't know they are crazy. The World Eaters have broken minds and don't know it. Only given little glimpses of what they will become by looking at others of their Legion. By every right they should be what the other Legions are, yet they are not. Kharn, changes depending on how the Nails are affecting him at the time and he doesn't even realise it.
My only real complaint and it basically the same with Auralian. It seems like ADB used the Wolves to promote another Legion that he wants to portray as "Tough". That said I like how he put it 100 years in the past before the nails and Angron really started destroying the Legion.
Kharn is completely cognizant of the fact that the Nails are driving him insane.
They just aren't actually doing that, unless it is important to the story. The story doesn't follow Kharn's actions. His actions follow the story. That's why I think he was poorly written.
If he had been believable, that would be one thing. But he's not. People are mistaking ADB's attempt add complexity to the character by making him a diametric opposite of his 40K self, with actual good character writng. I actually have no problem with the idea of Kharn as a voice of reason until he was corrupted. It's even been given precedent in earlier short stories. The problem is, that portrayal is very weakly done. My biggest issue with Kharn is with the Butcher's Nails. They are inconsistent, and they make him inconsistent. ADB was trying too hard to make Kharn a philosophical foil to Argel Tal, but the problem was, that required him to ignore the stated effects of the Nails to do so. There's one crucial quote that really breaks it all down:
"So Khârn killed, just as his brothers always killed, because killing meant feeling something beyond slow, unfocused spite."
You know, or all the other stuff he's been feeling before this. This is the biggest failing of the entire book, and also why it's just not a good idea to write stories that focus too heavily on the World Eaters. They're the Orks of Space Marines. They don't make any sense, but their antics are entertaining. The Butcher's Nails in Betrayer are never doing the same thing, and only exist as a narrative device, as opposed to a part of the actual character. There's very little internal conflict with Kharn. Sometimes he's completely okay, and other moments he's losing his mind to the Nails and talking about how hard it is to resist them (even though the story never bears this out). I mean, Angryon is a boring, two dimensional cardstock villain of a character, but at least he's consistent. Kharn's third dimension keeps changing shape.
But pretty much all of Betrayer suffers from this sort of effect. Things across the entire novel only happen because the storyline needs them to, and not because they make any sense in the grander picture. The fight between Lorgar, Angryon, and Guilliman, for example. At one point, Guilliman is fending off both Angryon and Lorgar at the same time, only losing a little bit of ground. The second that he needs to be defeated (because Angryon needs to turn into a daemon prince, and so Guilliman can run away, since he can't die in the events of the story), suddenly Angryon is way too strong and way too powerful for him. Kharn and the World Eaters come up against a Roman Shield wall formation (we'll avoid talking about how silly that is, lol), Kharn recognizes that they need to defeat it with the first charge, but that fails and they are beaten back by it. Kharn gets incredibly angry, and suddenly then that formation is easily dispersed. These are just a couple examples, because it isn't worth listing more. Such as the Imperator Titan's weaponry not being able to fire until the exact moment it can't, or it entire retinue of supporting Titans disappear- wait, I said I'd stop.
Overall, this novel should have been an audio drama, or heck, even a longer short story in an anthology. There was way too little actually happening in this story, with a ton of excess words written about those things. Guilliman displays his true powers: that of being able to be anywhere in the Ultima Segmentum at the exact moment he needs to be for the same of added drama (see the end of Angel Exterminatus too).
I will say that the Ultramarines were written rather well, even though ultimately they, like many things, were only as strong as they needed to be in any giv- wait. I said I'd stop. I was quite amused that ADB co-opted my oft-used title of "The Good Son" as Guilliman's archetype when Angryon calls him "Perfect Son." I know for a fact that ADB has read my commentaries on the nature of Guilliman, so I appreciate the nod, lol.
Let me be clear though. This isn't a heavy criticism of ADB. I really think he did a great job characterizing Lorgar in TFH and Aurelian. This novel felt rushed, and under-planned. I also think that trying to tackle the World Eaters in a full length novel, while ambitious, was biting off more than could be chewed. Plus, I think he wanted to write some big battles (he hasn't participated in the major ones talked about so far, like Isstvan, Calth, etc). And I don't know if he has the same kind of big picture battle knowledge/awareness of guys like Abnett. Too much happens in a vacuum in Betrayer. Too many events that have no cause/effect relationship in the grander scheme of things. Again, things just happening, because they need to happen for the story.
Vet. Sgt! you would'nt happen to have a book review blog somewhere? if not, you should.
I actually do, but it doesn't cover licensed genre fiction, lol. I have a hard enough time keeping up with those deadlines.
Besides, I feel like they'd all sound too overly critical. I mean, none of the Heresy novels are good. Most of them are just entertaining. Writing multiple reviews of "I enjoyed this novel for the most part because I have a nostalgic, inner-nerdy love of the 40K universe, but it was pretty flawed and here are the reasons why" seems like it would get boring. Both for me to write, and for readers, lol.
I tend to get caught up in discussions of character on these forums, but that often turns into a nasty fireball, because some people have a lot emotionally invested in these characters, and don't like to read criticism of them. I run into this most often with Lorgar. He's a heavily, heavily flawed character (that's what makes him interesting), but fans of the Word Bearers often hate to admit that, and it ultimately devolves very quickly. I think any reviews I did of 40K books would just end up with a long string of hate comments about how I "just don't understand".
LOL shallow people are already misinterpreting the book,which pisses author :
Spoiler:
if Russ was fighting to kill, then the whole point of that chapter is moot. Russ doesn't get to teach a lesson, and Angron's insight - when he recognizes that Russ probably didn't even have authority to start a war against the XII Legion - is also moot as well.
Secondly, let there be no confusion. Guilliman and Lorgar were more or less evenly matched. The highlight of their battle is Lorgar's revelation that he had been wrong about his brother and that Roboute didn't hate him or hold him in contempt until he betrayed him.
When Angron enters the fray, both of his brothers suffered from wounds. Guilliman doesn't have to fight both of them at once. Lorgar gets into his ritual and Angron takes his rage out on Roboute. By the time that fight ends, Guilliman is beaten - he is on the ground, barely able to defend himself. Lorgar intervenes and ensures it ends just like the fight against Russ, because it's part of his ritual to turn Angron into a Daemon Primarch.
Btw I'm puzzeled - Is Magnus the first deamon primarch?
Spoiler:
Lorgar mentiones that they are ALL changing,but also teases Magnus to show his real face....
Also there is Fulgrim or Angron (who comes first. to daemonhood?)....
Void__Dragon wrote: It's weird how Magnus, as a Daemon Prince, still apparently has a choice in the matter.
Pretty much. "I gave my bodily willingly to Tzeentch and am now an eldritch manifestation of Warp energy.....BUT I DON'T THINK THESE CHAOS GODS GUY REALLY EXIST"
I liked it a lot. I graduates Lorgar from a weepy zealot to a full-on Bond villain, gives the World Eaters a cool dynamic with their auxiliaries and withintheir own legion, and gives flesh to Angron as a broken figure that the universe pretty much conspired to crap on.
I liked Kharn's portrayal a lot: A good commander who has to deal with a murder-engine in the back of his skull, but tough enough not to whine about it. It's fun to see the early signs of what he'll become, and the one thing that could have prevented it. Even the antagonists are portraued in a very proper way: the ultramarines come across as brave, smart and dangerous, not silly goons for the protagonists to curb-stomp.
Spoiler:
Also, I just loved Angron's exchange with Russ. Him admitting that he had served the Emperor _because_ he was damaged by a never-ending bloodlust was a very cool twsit, as well as stating that, had he been a whole, moral man, he would have put an axe through the Emperor's face at the very first chance.
Kharn is completely cognizant of the fact that the Nails are driving him insane.
They just aren't actually doing that, unless it is important to the story. The story doesn't follow Kharn's actions. His actions follow the story. That's why I think he was poorly written.
Or does the story focus on those moments of him being cognizant vs. berserk in the grand scheme of the battles? I won't deny that some things happen because that's the way he story needs to go, but there is a LOT of action that takes place "off stage" and the story then moves back to the important characters when there are major developments. That was how I saw it anyway.
I also enjoyed Kharns struggle against not only The Butchers Nails, but his struggle against the corrupting influence of Chaos.
I have noticed that whenever prophecy laden plot lines are introduced in any fiction you get a feeling of heavy handidness. We KNOW Kharn fights at Terra and we know what happens with each of The Primarchs (in most cases anyway). It's how they get there that I find interesting. You make some great points, but I can't help but enjoy this book and enjoy reading my Bolter-porn when written by an author like ADB.
Having finally gotten around to reading this novel, Angron won the fight vs. Russ if we're comparing pure martial prowess. The World Eaters also had inflicted more casualties, but the point Russ was trying to make at the end is that his Legion remained united in brotherhood and their common goal, whereas Angron's Legion was becoming a mass of frothing, mindless berserkers. Angron didn't understand the point Russ was trying to make, because he's a brain-damaged don't use terms like this on Dakka. Reds8n
^Also like ADB said - SW won from their perspective,WE won from their perspective...Russ didn't want both legions to wipe each other, but one legion would lose a primarch, that is certain...
I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.
Omegus wrote: I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.
Yeah, this is little dumb :-) Guy who has brawl in his sig, loses the third time in "brawling"....But ok....Call it an irony...
But don't you love Lorgar...I mean how he hits other primarch with simple thruth is great!
Omegus wrote: I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.
I have a bad habbit of reading books in a single setting and did not have a problem with the book. However after having time to digest it and reread it. The whole book is a giant "Fluff" piece for Angron and the World Eaters. No matter what they does physically they ares the bestest and that's ok because they have broken minds...
Sure he can overpower a titan... But it is ok because he has broken mind.
He gets his weapon destroyed by Leman Russ, so he just disarms and out brawls the "Great brawling warrior"... But it ok because he has a broken mind.
He can get burried alive and just dig his way through 400 meters of earth (200 down and 200 back up) using axes... But it is ok because he has a broken mind.
The World Eaters charge a heavy defended line designed to destroy them and win... But its ok because they have broken minds. Literally that is the reason the book gives for them winning that fight. "We are so broken that we get mad and crazy and that is the only way to defeat an enemy so disciplined. Who just broke our charge a second ago and was slaughtering us. But now we has the nails so we winses".
I still enjoyed the book but it would have been a lot better if it did not have so many epic/ridiculous moments. Including how many times the Night of the Wolf gets brought up. Especially considering that it appears to only have been included to bring Russ and the SWs down a notch. Rather then a way to bring the World Eaters up, as I first saw it.
At first I thought it was to show that the World Eaters were great fighters and their jealous undertones for the SWs showed that on some level they knew how far they had slipped. But the reread makes it clear that that was not the case. ADB, just wanted to put his opinion of the Space Wolves being "Executioners" in writing while pumping up another Primarch/Legion's abilities.
Some of your criticism is valid (the whole line incident in particular, although I guess we can buy the shield wall finally falling because the World Eaters still hacking with their axes as they were impaled or shield bashed... even if 10 died for every Ultramarine, they still would win eventually), but I think most of the Legion are very aware of how far they have slipped, it's just Angron that is a clueless dumbass.
The one part I very much disliked is Angron torturing that Orfeo guy to death. That just seemed incredibly out of character; Orfeo proved himself a badass warrior (kicked Kharn's ass, for example), and dauntless even when facing down an entire Legion by himself. That is usually something Angron would admire and reward with a quick death by duel, not prolonged torture. It just seemed out of place.
Ya that was bad form. Angron, would definately not torture the guy. I also don't see Angron stepping in, in the middle of the fight to finish Kharn's fight.
Those were just some of the cases. All over the battle for the War World you keep hearing about how the World Eaters keep suffering "Devistating losses" but everywhere the story focuses they are easily winning. The Shield wall is the very worst case. The discription of how the fight starts makes it clear that the World Eaters are basically already lost to the nails and easily outclassed. But then they get really mad (at how badly they are being slaughtered no less) and surprise, they start winning.
If the book was not so slanted in favor of the World Eaters you would have seen how they stood no chance against the Ultramarines without the Word Bearers. Even taking the exact same story and just telling it from the Ultramarine's point of view. The story would be unrecognizable. I would even go so far as to say that if it was writen from an Ultramarine pov you would be asking yourself "How are the World Eaters not dead?" at almost every engagement we see or at least "How did the World Eaters win this?". As a Legion after Betrayer the World Eaters should be so depleted they should really be a non-factor for the rest of the HH series.
Omegus wrote: I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.
Reading this next to the other people in the office i forgot where I was and let out a expletive towards you. Not in a bad way but like you cheaky C##T. Which drew a lot of suprised stares and one staff member asking If I was OK.
not gona say more, to many threads have been closed on the B&C when discusiing Wolves and ADB
Omegus wrote: I'm merely talking about the duel itself. It came down to a first fight, and as usual with fist fights involving Russ, he wasn't the one remaining standing.
Reading this next to the other people in the office i forgot where I was and let out a expletive towards you. Not in a bad way but like you cheaky C##T. Which drew a lot of suprised stares and one staff member asking If I was OK.
not gona say more, to many threads have been closed on the B&C when discusiing Wolves and ADB
I understand. If rumors are to believed then I may well have been part of the group that got ADB to stop posting on Warseer. So I can understand a Forum's admin not wanting the same to happen to them. I hope he still at least reads the forums that he no longer posts on, so he can see that his insight is missed. Maybe even better being a sneaky git and posting under a different name and not telling anyone who he is.
People have different opinions and you cannot make everyone happy. Some will love the fact that they have proof that Angron beat Russ in a duel. Even if there are outside factors that may or may not have affected the fight. Some will love the fact that they have proof that the SWs beat the World Eaters in that fight. Even if there are outside factors that may or may not have affected the fight. The two groups will put forth the parts they like and come up with reasons s to why the other opinion is flawed. I think the book would have been cleaner without the "Night of the Wolf" and would have been just as disappinted if the roles would had been reversed. It begs the question as to why even include it in the first place, it effectivally ends one of the more heated debates about the setting. Without giving us clear answer.
It would have been more beneficial to the setting if it never came to blows and instead pured gas on the debate. Think about how much we would be talking if the Night of Wolf had no fighting and instead had Russ threatening Angron and Angron not backing down. Throw in Russ saying something like "I don't want another missing statue". To further that debate as well and we would have a few 100+ page threads already.
The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.
What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.
Omegus wrote: The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.
What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.
The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.
Nothing about that fight is "Clear". Other then how Angron interpreted the end. Even there Lorgar tells him that he's basically an idiot for that interpretation. Questioning the debatability on whether or not there really was more Wolves dieing then World Eaters. What's worse is that if the Wolves were sent to "Execute" Angron. They showed that they are perfectly capable of doing so and in the opening part of the engagement. Which shows how wrong Lhorke was when he was musing about the Wolves being "Executioners". The Wolves, live "Whatever it takes" and the World Eaters aspire to do it.
Even taking it in the most pro-World Eater way you can; Angron>Russ, World Eaters>Space Wolves individually and World Eaters<Space Wolves tactically. You still end up with uncertainty on how the fight went. because the last part throws the first two into dought.
Edit:
Omegus wrote: What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.
Omegus wrote: The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.
What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.
The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes and equivocation.
Russ rolled in all brash and belligerent, threatening and demanding. When Angron told him to shove it, Russ attacked first. The fight ended with him crawling away in a pool of his own blood. If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it. As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron. That's when Russ is all like, "See? My guys are loyal and are about to shoot your ass, while your guys are aimlessly running around killing stuff. That's what makes them good soldiers, not mindless brutality. " Angron replies, "I don't care, you're still a bitch."
If anything is unclear about the fight, is why Russ thought that a few tactical squads could actually kill a Primarch.
Omegus wrote: The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.
What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.
The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes and equivocation.
Russ rolled in all brash and belligerent, threatening and demanding. When Angron told him to shove it, Russ attacked first. The fight ended with him crawling away in a pool of his own blood. If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it. As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron. That's when Russ is all like, "See? My guys are loyal and are about to shoot your ass, while your guys are aimlessly running around killing stuff. That's what makes them good soldiers, not mindless brutality. " Angron replies, "I don't care, you're still a bitch."
If anything is unclear about the fight, is why Russ thought that a few tactical squads could actually kill a Primarch.
ADB responded on this 15 times - and his answer is "they could" ,else the whole point of the chapter is moot...I' mean I knew people will misinterpret the chapter (mostly the one who dislike Russ),but I didn't thought you will be one of them...
Nothing about that fight is "Clear". Other then how Angron interpreted the end. Even there Lorgar tells him that he's basically an idiot for that interpretation. Questioning the debatability on whether or not there really was more Wolves dieing then World Eaters. What's worse is that if the Wolves were sent to "Execute" Angron. They showed that they are perfectly capable of doing so and in the opening part of the engagement. Which shows how wrong Lhorke was when he was musing about the Wolves being "Executioners". The Wolves, live "Whatever it takes" and the World Eaters aspire to do it.
This is the proof - Lorgar starts the story "how Angron was bloody beaten", he corrects him about number of dead soldiers,wonders how Russ managed to crawl and stand up (insert butchers nails mailfunction), and explains him how SW could terminate his slowed arse...I' dont need any proof...Rest is subjective Angrons braging story...
Oh, I'm sure in the narrative Angron was supposedly totally at their mercy, but it just doesn't make sense. They can survive a plasma blaster to the face, or digging through 400 feet of rock, but a couple of dozen boltguns suddenly can do them in?
There's no misinterpretation taking place, it's just a little far fetched. I guess we can just assume they were all armed with multi-meltas.
And Lorgar wasn't there, so his opinion matters little, he was just trying to get Angron to understand the point Russ was making at the end. The fight we see is from an omniscient narrator's point of view.
With this I'm not so clear also...You have demigods who swallow lascannon fire and fart popcorns, but also you have some dudes who go down by mere astartes (Dorn,Fulgrim - who was almost sniped )...
Maybe shot in the eye is "full of win":-) also notice that Angrons story is full of holes...
Angron's story does have holes, most likely because he was lost to the nails and was largely not caring about what was going on other than the immediate fight. He's not really the kind to go about spinning lies; it's not like he even has much self-esteem left to salvage!
I'm hoping it gets continued, personally. Both to see what AngronPlus does when unleashed, and to see how they go about making Kharn's downfall interesting.
Omegus wrote: The Wolves got the worst of it in the fight, but won in terms of achieving an objective. The World Eaters were the better warriors, and the Wolves the better soldiers. Seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and ADB pretty much says the same in the afterword.
What's more interesting is that Russ thought it was his place to judge other Primarchs and dictate what they should do. I mean, his instincts were correct, but he was a judgmental, sanctimonious prick about it. I guess the same could be said about his instincts and actions with Magnus.
The problem with that is that we don't know whether or not Russ was just fighting defencively while Angron was full bore. Or even if Russ' falling back was to draw Angron away from his Legion. It has been a repeated point that the Wolves will risk death to land the winning blow. Ragnaar, leaps on a spear to win, Bjorn takes a Guardian Spear to the chest undefended to gain the upper hand, ect. The fight from Angron's point of view does not in anyway show what the Wolves were doing to gain the advantage that they had in the end. The World Eaters mentally there enough to not chase the Wolves around could not break the Wolves defending Russ and Threating Angron. The rest could have been "losing" just to pull them away from the real fighting.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes and equivocation.
Russ rolled in all brash and belligerent, threatening and demanding. When Angron told him to shove it, Russ attacked first. The fight ended with him crawling away in a pool of his own blood. If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it. As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron. That's when Russ is all like, "See? My guys are loyal and are about to shoot your ass, while your guys are aimlessly running around killing stuff. That's what makes them good soldiers, not mindless brutality. " Angron replies, "I don't care, you're still a bitch."
If anything is unclear about the fight, is why Russ thought that a few tactical squads could actually kill a Primarch.
Apperently we read different books.
ADB Betrayer page 336 wrote:Same with the Wolves: where Russ and his Legion drive the World Eaters to a bitter stalemate, perhaps losing the battle of pride, but succinctly and effectively winning the war. Going for the throat, if you will. Very wolfy.
But here some clearification or in this case mudification.
Omegus wrote: If he was only fighting defensively, he did a piss-poor job of it.
Russ, broke Angron's axe "Widow maker" in the fight. Angron then disarms Russ and breaks "Kraken Maw". For Russ to break the axe and then be unable to hold off an unarmed oppoinite. Speaks to Russ holding back. At the very least trying not to kill Angron. More in a bit.
Omegus wrote: As Angron advanced on Russ, a few of the surrounding Space Wolves squads broke off from the fighting and surrounded their Primarch, aiming their weapons at Angron.
At the begining of the exchange Lhorke (The contemptor dreadnaught) was close enough for Russ to address him. Lhorke, was also mentioned as being one of the World Eaters trying and failing to fight his way back to the Primarch. That says that either Lhorke and the other World Eaters were forced back away from the primarchs or much more likely that Angron forced his way forward leaving his warriors behind. In the likely case that it was the later then Russ "Running" would be key to seperating Angron from his warriors. The fact that the story mentioned World Eaters trying and failing to come to their primarchs aid shows that the Space Wolves are perfectly capable of holding their ground against them. Even in ADB's own words printed in the very book that this happens in. He says that he wanted to show the Wolves "Going for the throat" and did just that. He also called the engagement a "bitter stalemate" which is a far cry from the World Eaters and Angron smacking the Wolves and Russ around.
The means by which the Wolves isolate Angron is key to showing who was actually martially superior. And that is the information that is missing from the story.
I said that I would be just as disappointed if the legions roles were reversed. It is going to be just like the rumor started about the Ultramarines absorbing the Lost Legions. People are going to hang onto the parts that don't matter (Like Angron did) and miss out on what was actually being said. Especially the part were Lorgar bashes Angron for not seeing that he lost. Just like when Lorgar told his men repeating the rumor that is was not true. The internet has a good memory when it come to things that are misunderstood.
Not sure how this ended up as a Space Wolves vs. World Eaters bitchfight but back on topic... I have to say I listened to this as an audiobook [as I do most of the Black Library stuff] so this may affect my judgment. I listen to them while I run but my expectations are very low - if they take my mind off running for a bit then great [and at times this one did just that]. However I was underwhelmed for the following reasons;
Spoiler:
Like a lot of ADBs books [IMO] this one started off well, then just meandered to a disappointing ending. There was a vague attempt to make us feel sorry for Angron but this just didn't work for me, mainly because this 'tortured soul' set about mutilating his own legion as soon as possible with the Butcher's Nails. This made the whole angle about feeling bad for Angron for having the BNs forced upon him ineffective. Angron just comes across as a spoiled brat throwing his toys out of the pram throughout the whole novel. Also, it still doesn't answer the question about how the all knowing all powerful Emperor allowed an obvious psychopath to lead one of his legions.
The relationship between Kharn and the guy from the World Bearers [can't remember him name, the possessed one] was quite interesting but they both seemed to be very opposed to the direction their legions were going and went along with it anyway because... I'm not sure really.
Lorgar was dealt with well, and made for a believable/credible primarch [something severely lacking in the HH novels]. My biggest problem was that he survives two hits from a Warhound plasma blastgun and two salvos from a Vulcan Mega Bolter? OK then...
As in the other ADB books I've read the minor characters were my favourite - the World Eater's dreadnought [Lawk?] and the ship's captain [the woman] were great and made me feel nostalgic about the War Hounds [and think about starting a War Hounds army!]
The woman that get resurrected was just a strange subplot which was completely unexplored and superfluous, as was the Kabal person. I had to check that I didn't have the abridged version as there were so many plot holes. If these characters are going to be explored in a later novel then fair enough but if that is the case I don't expect to see the attack on Terra in the next decade.
In Know No Fear there is a running subplot where the cabal is gathering the purpetuals for some reason. Well of the one in Know No Fear we know the reason but the girl didn't really make sence...yet.
Also have you seen how people on B&C are kissing ADB-s arse? I mean I noticed when someone is trying to imply some critique, immidiately gets thrashed by his fanpack....
I m just happy we have dakka...
Garvy wrote: Also have you seen how people on B&C are kissing ADB-s arse? I mean I noticed when someone is trying to imply some critique, immidiately gets thrashed by his fanpack....
I m just happy we have dakka...
Oh was just going to post this!
If you follow any of the topics ADB is involved in at the B&C or about his books, he has so many nuthuggers ready to white knight for him it is pathetic. To actually see people openly dislike his writing without a rush of defenders to shower praises and attack the critic is refreshing.
Stonerhino wrote: For Russ to break the axe and then be unable to hold off an unarmed oppoinite. Speaks to Russ holding back. At the very least trying not to kill Angron. .
Like that time Konrad Curze was able to gain the advantage and choke the Lion in a brawl with his bare hands, right?
Maybe books about giant space soldiers and walking cities with guns are a little crude for your sophisticated pallets.The way you guys nitpick these books tells me 40k books might be slightly beneath you.
Stonerhino wrote: For Russ to break the axe and then be unable to hold off an unarmed oppoinite. Speaks to Russ holding back. At the very least trying not to kill Angron. .
Like that time Konrad Curze was able to gain the advantage and choke the Lion in a brawl with his bare hands, right?
The Lion was holding back in that fight, right?
Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.
Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.
What was I thinking.
************
Lets not let this degrade into an ADB bash fest.
Maybe books about giant space soldiers and walking cities with guns are a little crude for your sophisticated pallets.The way you guys nitpick these books tells me 40k books might be slightly beneath you.
Actually some of the books have real depth. If you are looking no deeper then "Giant space soldiers and walking cities with guns ". Then you sir are missing out.
Stonerhino wrote: Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.
Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.
What was I thinking.
I could be misremembering the book I'll admit, but frankly, "Leman Russ CAN'T be that weak" isn't much of an argument IMHO.
Stonerhino wrote: Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.
Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.
What was I thinking.
I could be misremembering the book I'll admit, but frankly, "Leman Russ CAN'T be that weak" isn't much of an argument IMHO.
Good thing my arguement is "We are not given enough information to truely judge the fight. So it is a worthless piece of fluff that will be latched onto to say that Russ IS really that weak". That's why I changed my opinion of the fight from "A way to show how good Angron is" to "It's a way to bring Russ down".
Stonerhino wrote: Ya, exactly like how Curze had a pair of energized claws and managed to get inside the Lions guard and tackle him. That is so much like an unarmed fighter vs another wielding a sword and doing the same thing.
Wait... No... Come to think about it; Having a pair of weapons that could block or parry the sword as you go in is way different then being unarmed and doing the same thing.
What was I thinking.
I could be misremembering the book I'll admit, but frankly, "Leman Russ CAN'T be that weak" isn't much of an argument IMHO.
Yes it is...@Shonerhino said it best,and I'm thinking to post his comments (If he allow me) to adb on B&C...
Also there is a freaking authors note which shows that Russ wasn't all in
Spoiler:
if Russ was fighting to kill, then the whole point of that chapter is moot. Russ doesn't get to teach a lesson, and Angron's insight - when he recognizes that Russ probably didn't even have authority to start a war against the XII Legion - is also moot as well.
+ there is Angron saying
Spoiler:
Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me. I learned he postured in the hope of bringing me back to Terra, collared and submissive to his whims.’
I was the one who did get quoted by him - several times...and fans responded like "you should be thankful that he is discussing with you".....I was like Ok...But I'm really thinking after 15 years to leave 40k after I posted authors note 15 times to people...
Also from the whole book, "Night of the Wolf" and Russ vs Angron is most commented and misinerpreted chapter ever...and it will be (mostly by guys who don't like SW )
Ok, Angron obviously wasn't fighting to kill either, because then Russ would be dead. At the time, Angron was still more or less cognizant of where the line was.
Fighting to kill or not, ADB also said Angron won the duel. Not the battle overall, which was obviously won by the wolves, but just the duel. This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?
Fighting to kill or not, ADB also said Angron won the duel. Not the battle overall, which was obviously won by the wolves, but just the duel. This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?
This. Though I'd venture that the fight between the primarchs was, at least at first, to the death or very close to. On angron's side because he is pretty much wired to kill. On Russ' side because Angron's words were probably the harshest condemnation of the emperor and the Imperium not coming straight out of a rebelling, mid-purge world, and being spoken by a Legion Master to boot. Being called a lapdog and a servant of the worst tyrant to sail the stars doesn't make for half-measures.
So yeah, Angron won in pretty much the ways he cared about. The wolves can look pretty and curb-stomp Daemon primarchs without breaking a sweat in their own books later to make up for it.
Omegus wrote: Ok, Angron obviously wasn't fighting to kill either, because then Russ would be dead. At the time, Angron was still more or less cognizant of where the line was.
Fighting to kill or not, ADB also said Angron won the duel. Not the battle overall, which was obviously won by the wolves, but just the duel. This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?
So what - it was one duel who ended up in brawl in which Russ had him in the end...Also when you fight a gladiator king - who has dueled with people all his life, only way you could win is by outsmarting (which Russ did )...In Arena my money is on Angron,in battlefield Russ 10/10...
Same thing is with the SoS in Prospero...You don't go full on a psyker with just a pocket knife...
That's why I think Magnus could kill Angron without breaking a sweat (superior intellect gazilion times vs raaagh), and Russ also (which is evident in the betrayer)...
Also why Russ stopped ? Simply because he decided that he'd gone to far (as the big E wouldn't be pleased by him returning with Angron's hide unasked)...
Certainly not out of mercy or that lesson theory, simply killing a brother P was to much...
Now you see how Empy was a little prick... Later some P petitioned Angrons termination, but Empy wouldn't hear it....
Omegus wrote: This is not so much people hating on SW, but SW fanboys refusing to acknowledge that their Primarch is inferior to any other in any category. Oh, he's the best fighter, and the best strategist, and best at stealth,and has the strongest fleet with the best void commanders, and the biggest balls, and his hair smells the nicest, and his howl proves he's the bestest
psykerbutnotreallyapsykersincehedrawspowerfromthecycleoflifeanddeathonfenrisbutreallyjustpsykerbecausethatsabunchofbullcrap. Seriously, why begrudge Angron his martial prowess, when that is literally the only thing he has going for him?
I did say that I would not like how the fight is presented even if their roles were reveresed.
Anybody who doubts Angron's martial abilities is a fool. But the information we are missing makes the duel meaningless. For one the important parts we do get to see are from a person with a broken mind who is to stuborn to see that events might not be what they seem. Lorgar, points out that his whole idea of how things ended is completely backwards. Magnus, tells us that he would not trust Angron if he told him that "Water was wet". Yet we as the readers are supposed to take his in-universe word on a fight that happened 100 years before which we are told he misinterpreted. That is missing the entire fight besides his ax getting broken, disarming Russ and breaking his sword and winning the brawl. Which the last two are easly explained by Russ drawing him away from his warriors. And thus are not really complementry of Angron's abilities only his failure to understand what's going on around him.
The problem is that the way it writen Russ is just a chump and really shows Angron being foolish rather then either of their martial abilities.
@ the fanboy comment:
2nd ed SW codex page 5 wrote:Leman Russ was the most ferocious of the Primarchs, a giant even among the Emperor's chosen, a great brawling warrior, fiercely loyal to his friends and a terror to his enemies. He was said to be the most headstrong of the Primarchs but was undoubtedly one of the most brilliant military commanders in an age of great generals.
Leman Russ in the old fluff is easily one of the top tier Primarchs. Not the top of the top but up there. But since the SWs called themselves "Executioners" some of the writers have found it nessessary to degrade them at every turn.
Is it really so bad to want it done well when it is done. I would have no problem with a duel with the same result if it was well writen and clear. For example when Lhork was mussing to himself. Angron pushes Russ back. "Sent flying" is the quote I believe. And you have not once seen me point at that and find fault with it. Its viewed from the outside and is simply a statement of fact. So if you said "Angron was stronger then Russ" based on what Lhork saw I would completely agree.
The duel is nothing like that. That is why I have a problem with it. It does nothing to promote Angron's abilities when you really look at it. But does speaks negatively towards Russ untill you really look at it and reallize it is meaningless.
That's why I think Magnus could kill Angron without breaking a sweat (superior intellect gazilion times vs raaagh), and Russ also (which is evident in the betrayer)...
The only thing evident in Betrayer is that Russ could kill Angron if he has his Legion backing him up. And perhaps if given time to prepare, he could set up some kind of trap or stratagem that lets him win. But one on one, mano-a-mano, Russ lies dying in the dirt like anyone else, except maybe Sanguinius or Horus.
I don't think Magnus would have fared any better, since all the Primarchs seem to have some level of psychic resistance (either innate or built into their armor), and Angron also had the original Nails, which seemed to interfere with psychic intrusion also. Magnus could melt half of Angron's head off, and Angron would still be swinging his axe. Then again, I suppose Magnus could open up the earth under Angron and have the big dumbass tumble in (something Russ wouldn't fall for, no pun intended).
Keep in mind that, psyker resistance be damned, even Lorgar could mentally compel Horus to do his bidding. Magnus proved capable of psychically dominating Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy, while manifesting as a psychic avatar.
I'm pretty sure part of that psychic compulsion was Enuncia, rather than just pure psychic dominance. Lorgar also struggled against the Communion of World Eater psykers.
It was actually quite sad. The World Eaters' psykers got a bum deal. They are hated by their own Legion, left out of all the reindeer games, and then are eaten by their own Primarch despite saving his life half a dozen times.
Yup all the world eaters psykers combine to help Angron survive up until Lorgar just about overpowers them and has his brother eat them all to become a daemon prince
I suppose Magnus could open up the earth under Angron and have the big dumbass tumble in (something Russ wouldn't fall for, no pun intended).
You took words out of my mouth....
This is similar is what Russ did in a way...Also Angon has a chance against his smarter brothers only in arena...same thing about Angel boy : duel- Angron would raped him, on the battlefield KFC wins
My opinion is that if Magnus can burn stuff with his mind, he can easily melt his nails...And also what Magnus said about Angron
Spoiler:
He wouldn't trust him if he told him that water is wet...
shows his new feat....
also add ultra dumb (for reasons above)
But let's put aside Russ vs Angron topic, and tell me @Omegus what do you really think about the book?
It tries way too hard to make Angron sympathetic, and Lorgar's manipulation of him "you deserve answers as to why the Emperor didn't save your boys but just teleported you alone into space!" was a bit hamfisted. Angron torturing Orfeo also didn't make a lick of sense.
I also now struggle to make sense of Lorgar's motivation. Initially after his enlightenment he spouts stuff about how the Gods want what is best for us, to co-exist in perfect union, blah blah blah, yet in this book he seems aware that the Gods are fickle and spiteful beings, that only desire pain and suffering, who work against each other as often as not, and may not even really be sentient as we understand it.
It seems he is convinced that Chaos will swallow up reality Eldar-style regardless, so we may as well embrace the truth of our reality and do what we can to please the Gods. Seems like an easy choice to make when you're already a Primarch and have daemons blowing smoke up your ass about being the Chosen of Chaos, but for the rest of humanity all it offers is madness and death.
Honestly of all the Primarchs, I think Angron can be made out to be the most sympathetic. Being the only Primarch who refused to leave his adopted world but being forced into this life as more or less the Emperor's slave.
There's always choice, and Angron chose to mutilate his sons (after killing a bunch of them), and then to massacre whole worlds. He refused to leave his fellow rebels behind, not his world. Seeing as the same house was still in charge a century later, I guess they capitulated to the Imperium and thus the Emperor saw no reason to purge them. After taking command, Angron could have come back to the planet and replaced the leadership and abolish the practice of the Butcher's Nails (Lorgar is shocked that Angron knew where the planet was all along, and never came back to it), instead of spreading them into a Space Marine legion.
How is a guy blaming his psychosis on how his daddy mistreated him more sympathetic than, say, Magnus, whose sin was wanting to know stuff and to save his sons, and it cost him his whole Legion (you know, which he actually cared about).
Harriticus wrote: Honestly of all the Primarchs, I think Angron can be made out to be the most sympathetic. Being the only Primarch who refused to leave his adopted world but being forced into this life as more or less the Emperor's slave.
Angron is basically Spartacus denied. A slave violated even in his own mind who led a revolt with the people whose plight he shared, only to have his moment of reckoning stolen from him by an absent father keen on being a weapons-grade jerk. The book explores this quite well. Under this light, it makes sense that he doesn't give a toss about his Legion; they are not the ones he shared his early life with or wanted to die for. Every victory of theirs only expands the tyranny of the merciless father who allowed his true companions to die unsung and unavenged.
There's a bit in the early chapters that I really hope is a set-up. Argel Tal comments that Legions should be inspired by their primarchs, and Kharn admits that the World Eaters don't feel that way about Angron, even after they have taken up the Nails. As the story develops, I wonder if they -will- eventually come to honestly admire and worship him, as they lose themselves to Khorne, achieving that awe in wanting to be what he has become: an avatar of pure rage.
I seriously doubt it, because by that point they are also lost. Being a berserker of the World Eaters chasing the serenity the Nails promise but never deliver doesn't leave much room for things like admiration or worship. Look at Kharn, for example.
Omegus wrote: I seriously doubt it, because by that point they are also lost. Being a berserker of the World Eaters chasing the serenity the Nails promise but never deliver doesn't leave much room for things like admiration or worship. Look at Kharn, for example.
Kharn just may be the closest of them all to the ideal of a life of unceasing violence. Not saying it's a good thing, but under that insane premise it does work. It's not unlike Kyras' last speech in DoW2. "We murder. We kill. It is mindless savagery. This universe is mindless.".
According to te latest CSM codex, not all Khorne lords are frothing madmen, though during battle you could be excused for believing otherwise.
Omegus wrote: I seriously doubt it, because by that point they are also lost. Being a berserker of the World Eaters chasing the serenity the Nails promise but never deliver doesn't leave much room for things like admiration or worship. Look at Kharn, for example.
Kharn just may be the closest of them all to the ideal of a life of unceasing violence. Not saying it's a good thing, but under that insane premise it does work. It's not unlike Kyras' last speech in DoW2. "We murder. We kill. It is mindless savagery. This universe is mindless.".
QFT - and Kyras "the Khorne librarian" concept sucks....
Omegus wrote: There's always choice, and Angron chose to mutilate his sons (after killing a bunch of them), and then to massacre whole worlds. He refused to leave his fellow rebels behind, not his world.
Actually, he didn't refuse to leave his fellow rebels behind; he refused to leave period. The Emperor hijacked him because he was going to die; his fellow rebels were left because they wanted to continue the fight.
How is a guy blaming his psychosis on how his daddy mistreated him more sympathetic than, say, Magnus, whose sin was wanting to know stuff and to save his sons, and it cost him his whole Legion (you know, which he actually cared about).
Magnus's sin was more than that, he worked a deal with Tzeentch to save his sons shortly after taking over that legion.
------- So what we have is Angron, as one of the only primarchs to fail in subjugating the world he grew up on prior to being reunited with daddy, being forcefully pulled away from a fight that he should have plainly been left to prosecute. The Emperor should have let Angron finish what he started even if failure meant his death. Stealing Angron away didn't just dishonor Angron and his freedom fighters, but dishonored the very ideals and purpose the Emperor supposedly had for him. The level of irony is almost comical.
The killing of "his" legionnaires is actually understandable as they were a representation of the Emperor. It only stopped when he came across Kharn who convinced him that he understood what honor was.
With Magnus, one of the first things he did was make a pact with the 40k equivalent of a devil. No sympathy for that as right out of the gate, Magnus royally screwed up and truly belongs in the same boat as Lorgar.
Magnus, despite his own abilities, found himself unable to save his legion, and found himself forced to turn to a higher power, and if he didn't, his legion would have likely been exterminated. Magnus, more than any of the Primarchs, believed in the ideal of the Great Crusade, the triumph of knowledge and reason over superstition. Only the Great Crusade was never actually about that, it was always about ignorance, about keeping humanity in the dark concerning the truth of the universe.
Angron has a sympathetic backstory, one I've defended many times, but he can't compare to Magnus in that regard. Not when he deliberately turned his legion into a legion of bloodthirsty madmen, not when he regularly massacred civilians without thought or care, not when he helped plunge the galaxy into chaos, without Chaos even needing to orchestrate his fall, like Magnus's was.
Void__Dragon wrote: Magnus, despite his own abilities, found himself unable to save his legion, and found himself forced to turn to a higher power, and if he didn't, his legion would have likely been exterminated. Magnus, more than any of the Primarchs, believed in the ideal of the Great Crusade, the triumph of knowledge and reason over superstition.
True - even now he considers CG as warp abominations or leeches, nothing else...
Void__Dragon wrote: Only the Great Crusade was never actually about that, it was always about ignorance, about keeping humanity in the dark concerning the truth of the universe.
False - and totally Lorgar's PoV
All depends are you pro-imperial truth or you need something to worship....simple
To sum it up, my pal Perturabo said it well :
Spoiler:
‘Gods?’
Fulgrim waved away the pejorative associations. ‘Entities so powerful they might as well be called gods. They are to mankind as we are to microbes: towering and immortal, magnificent and all-powerful.’
‘A microbe can still kill in great enough numbers,’ pointed out Perturabo, but Fulgrim ignored him.
Yes, that point of view is touched by Lorgar's madness (neither him nor his truest son, Argel Tal, really liked the reality they saw behind the veil, but they refuse to "live in ignorance" since they work from the assumption that an Eldar-like event for humanity is inevitable, except will be on a much larger scale, and if we don't embrace the truth of the universe now, we're all going to be screwed down the road).
That said, I don't think it's inaccurate to label the Imperium as anti-truth. For example, the Emperor practically set Magnus up for a fall, probably so he had a good excuse to imprison him in the Throne (Magnus saw the throne as an honor, but I don't think he was aware of the full extent of its price...see Malcador). He blinded the Imperium at the most dire of times. The fact is, the scale of the Emperor's ambition is simply too great to consider the fate of an individual, which is why he probably tolerated the horrors of the Petitioners' City right at his doorstep. The lifespan of a single human being is simply too short to draw his attention; by the time he affected change, you'd be dead anyway. So the Imperium probably wouldn't be all too different if the Heresy didn't occur; the Emperor made clear his intention to pass the minutiae of rule to mortals, and he only had one Perfect Son, anyway. He could minimize the Warp's influence by stamping out occult knowledge and taking over the Webway, but in such a huge and diverse Empire, there would always be Chaos cultists. Mutants and psykers would still have to be thoroughly oppressed, So at the end of the day, just like in the "modern" Imperium, you either accept your lot in life and serve the Emperor, or you die.
Spoiler:
The worth of the individual was the greatest lie the Imperium had made its people swallow. From soldiers in the army to the scribes of the palace to the workers toiling in the factories, every human life was in service to the Emperor. Whether they realised it or not, the human race had been yoked to the singular goal of the galaxy’s conquest.
For the first time in his life, Kai saw the Imperium for what it was, a machine that could operate on such a vast scale only because its fuel of human life was in never-ending supply. He had been part of that machine, but he was a tiny cog that had slipped its gear and was tumbling without purpose through its delicate workings. Kai knew enough of such mechanisms to know that such a random piece could not be allowed to remain within the body of the machine. Either that piece was returned to its designated place, or it was cast out and discarded.
I don't give a feth about Lorgar's POV, lol. Lorgar is a mentally unstable manchild.
It is inarguable that the Emperor actively endeavored to keep humanity in the dark about faith, Chaos, how the two are connected, and whatnot. He strove to use that ignorance to help starve the Chaos Gods, and whether they are real gods or not is irrelevant.
Yeah I thought that twist was awesome. I never expected it. I'd say one of my favorite parts of the book was the battle close to the start when the ultramarines make a last stand against the world eaters using shields to break their advance. And the ultramarines champion tearing kharn a new one.
theheartcollectors wrote: Yeah I thought that twist was awesome. I never expected it. I'd say one of my favorite parts of the book was the battle close to the start when the ultramarines make a last stand against the world eaters using shields to break their advance. And the ultramarines champion tearing kharn a new one.
It wasn't a champion but the plaentary commander of a war planet, so he'd likely be the equivalent of a Chapter Master. But yeah, he was doing a fine job against Kharn.
I like the book because it's one of the few in which all sides come out looking great.
Ultramarines come across as valiant and utterly dangerous even in defeat. Given that they spend the whole book facing two legions backed by their primarchs and warships of unheard-of scale, they do a good job at selling each battle dear.
Angron gets more fleshed out, with some borderline sympathetic moments. For those who have the audiobooks, the performance is really good, especially toward the end. His rants at Russ and Roboute are the stuff revolution and rebellion are made of.
Lorgar really shines here. He has many of the best lines, seems to genuinely care for his brothers and graduates from whiny prayboy into a magnificent bastard worthy of respect, even if he is going rather insane.
Argel Tal is a pragmatic, tragic figure who honestly dislikes the current turn of events, but simply can't argue with the truth.
Kharn is an amusing badass you can respect, but they really should flesh out the reason he supports the Heresy a bit more.
The Space wolves come across as arrogant but still well-meaning, and able to keep their eyes on the prize even when things are going bad for them.
And Erebus gets to be his viperish self, only not as infallible as he believes. His humbling at the end is a balm to everyone who wanted to see him get his comeuppance.
And if Lotara is not elevated to daemon princess at some point, the Chaos Gods deserve to lose.
He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.
Void__Dragon wrote: He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.
Actually, no. It exists, despite what his all-knowing Father told him. It's the key to power on unimaginable scale. In fact, as he demonstrates in the book, it is a path for an endless, higher existence free from time, death and physical demands.
Sure, Chaos sucks for those being sacrificed or stomped. So does compliance, if you're the one being shelled by Space Wolves Whirlwinds, taking bolter round sto the face because your tithe wasn't up to specs, and so on.
And Erebus gets to be his viperish self, only not as infallible as he believes. His humbling at the end is a balm to everyone who wanted to see him get his comeuppance.
Another comeuppance hmm, he's not doing so well the poor chap, does he lose his face again?
Void__Dragon wrote: He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.
Lorgar made a deal for truth, Magnus made a deal to save his sons. At least Lorgar went into it with his eyes open.
Lorgar knew how gakky the "truth" was for the vast majority of people, how ugly it was, how it would destroy the galaxy. But he was so pathetic he needed a cause to fight for, and forced it upon the galaxy. Does Chaos exist, and could dear old dad handled his sons better? Absolutely. But
Chaos sucks for almost everyone, none of the traitor Primarchs have retained their original selves post-ascension except Magnus (Who is miserable as a result), and the very notion that Imperial rule under the Emperor, as bad as it is, is as bad as or worse than Chaos is utterly laughable. Chaos twists your body, as well as your mind to suit its own purposes. Lorgar knew all that, and went with it due to his own weakness and naivety. He hung on Ingethel's every word, every lie.
He is emotionally the weakest Primarch, the most pitifully human.
Void__Dragon wrote: Lorgar knew how gakky the "truth" was for the vast majority of people, how ugly it was, how it would destroy the galaxy. But he was so pathetic he needed a cause to fight for, and forced it upon the galaxy. Does Chaos exist, and could dear old dad handled his sons better? Absolutely. But
Chaos sucks for almost everyone, none of the traitor Primarchs have retained their original selves post-ascension except Magnus (Who is miserable as a result), and the very notion that Imperial rule under the Emperor, as bad as it is, is as bad as or worse than Chaos is utterly laughable. Chaos twists your body, as well as your mind to suit its own purposes. Lorgar knew all that, and went with it due to his own weakness and naivety. He hung on Ingethel's every word, every lie.
He is emotionally the weakest Primarch, the most pitifully human.
Lorgar doesn't seem to be very happy either.
Magnus was pretty much the same, crying into the warp because he couldn't save his sons, making pacts with powers he thought he was better than, sulking after he got told off by his dad, thinking he knows best and ignoring what he was told. They are both as bad as each other. Now go to your rooms the pair of you
You should see me talking about Leman Russ, I bet you would be happy then I don't dislike any Primarch, but when someone is championing one over the other i'll stick up for the other guy. No Primarch is amazing as they were all flawed things, although the loyalist ones seem to be the less broken.
I'm just saying that Lorgar and Magnus are quite similar in their failings despite both doing different things.
This was such a good book it shocks me that so many people are focussed on the fight between Russ and angron, kharn was one of my favorite characters of.the heresy so far, and what he did to erebus was.well deserved, Argul tal was also well written, all in all I put this book up there with horus rising, legion, fulgrim, and angel exterminatus as excellent books that redefines the characters they are.written about
I also don't actually dislike Leman Russ. Or even the Space Wolves anymore.
Just some of their fans.
No, but you made nasty comments about Lorgar that needed addressing
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't give a feth about Lorgar's POV, lol. Lorgar is a mentally unstable manchild.
Void__Dragon wrote: He was a whiny little girl who was so weak and pathetic that, desperate for a holy cause to fight for, he sold himself and the galaxy to Chaos, despite knowing that Chaos fething sucks.
Yeah, they do seem to enjoy bigging up their Legion like Thousand Sons fans .. oh wait ..
Actually the more I'm going through the books Lorgar seems to be the only one who isn't a "man child " and I kind of like him...
Don't get me wrong guy has issues, but there are moments when he is five times more rational then most of his brothers...
Sephyr wrote: And Erebus gets to be his viperish self, only not as infallible as he believes. His humbling at the end is a balm to everyone who wanted to see him get his comeuppance.
I thought that happened when Horus cut his face off.
I don't give a feth about Lorgar's POV, lol. Lorgar is a mentally unstable manchild.
He was probably one of the few primarchs who understood the end game and didn't cause his legion to be shattered like Magnus Agron and Fulgrim.
Actually, he basically admits in the book that Kor Phaeron and Erebus have lost sight of his vision and are doing their own thing, and is all butthurt when his favorite son is killed. Of course, he doesn't do anything about it, but rather retreats to his tower to meditate/produce scripture, letting Kor Phaeron and Erebus systematically purge the Word Bearer ranks every few decades or so in an endless power struggle with no real point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote: Lorgar knew how gakky the "truth" was for the vast majority of people, how ugly it was, how it would destroy the galaxy. But he was so pathetic he needed a cause to fight for, and forced it upon the galaxy. Does Chaos exist, and could dear old dad handled his sons better? Absolutely. But
Chaos sucks for almost everyone, none of the traitor Primarchs have retained their original selves post-ascension except Magnus (Who is miserable as a result), and the very notion that Imperial rule under the Emperor, as bad as it is, is as bad as or worse than Chaos is utterly laughable. Chaos twists your body, as well as your mind to suit its own purposes. Lorgar knew all that, and went with it due to his own weakness and naivety. He hung on Ingethel's every word, every lie.
He is emotionally the weakest Primarch, the most pitifully human.
I disagree with this assessment. Lorgar seems fully aware just how gakky Chaos is, but he considers the alternative to be worse (i.e. what happened to the Eldar). Humanity's psychic potential is awakening with every passing moment, and no amount of pogroms or dogmatic repression is going to stop that. Eventually, the dam will break and we will have the birth of Slaanesh x1000. If humanity refuses Chaos like the Eldar did, we too will become a scattered race of bitter survivors trying to eke out a few more years in an uncaring universe (except given the scale of humanity, there probably won't be a universe).
This was by far one of my favorites and not just because I have pre heresy world eaters, I loved the depth it gave the world eaters and angron(wasn't much death but its considering I thought they had nine to begin with) kharns portrayal was amazing as was Argel tal and angron for that matter. I thought it was a great mix of action and storyline and loved how it was broken up into two stories almost. And I personally loved lotara sarin, plus it was nice to see Erebus get stomped
Omegus wrote: Yes, that point of view is touched by Lorgar's madness (neither him nor his truest son, Argel Tal, really liked the reality they saw behind the veil, but they refuse to "live in ignorance" since they work from the assumption that an Eldar-like event for humanity is inevitable, except will be on a much larger scale, and if we don't embrace the truth of the universe now, we're all going to be screwed down the road).
That said, I don't think it's inaccurate to label the Imperium as anti-truth. For example, the Emperor practically set Magnus up for a fall, probably so he had a good excuse to imprison him in the Throne (Magnus saw the throne as an honor, but I don't think he was aware of the full extent of its price...see Malcador). He blinded the Imperium at the most dire of times. The fact is, the scale of the Emperor's ambition is simply too great to consider the fate of an individual, which is why he probably tolerated the horrors of the Petitioners' City right at his doorstep. The lifespan of a single human being is simply too short to draw his attention; by the time he affected change, you'd be dead anyway. So the Imperium probably wouldn't be all too different if the Heresy didn't occur; the Emperor made clear his intention to pass the minutiae of rule to mortals, and he only had one Perfect Son, anyway. He could minimize the Warp's influence by stamping out occult knowledge and taking over the Webway, but in such a huge and diverse Empire, there would always be Chaos cultists. Mutants and psykers would still have to be thoroughly oppressed, So at the end of the day, just like in the "modern" Imperium, you either accept your lot in life and serve the Emperor, or you die.
Spoiler:
The worth of the individual was the greatest lie the Imperium had made its people swallow. From soldiers in the army to the scribes of the palace to the workers toiling in the factories, every human life was in service to the Emperor. Whether they realised it or not, the human race had been yoked to the singular goal of the galaxy’s conquest.
For the first time in his life, Kai saw the Imperium for what it was, a machine that could operate on such a vast scale only because its fuel of human life was in never-ending supply. He had been part of that machine, but he was a tiny cog that had slipped its gear and was tumbling without purpose through its delicate workings. Kai knew enough of such mechanisms to know that such a random piece could not be allowed to remain within the body of the machine. Either that piece was returned to its designated place, or it was cast out and discarded.
Malcador died cause he just wasn't powerful enough to withstand the Golden Throne. One would think that Magnus could withstand it seeing as he is a powerful psyker and a Primarch.
The Emp let humans run the Imperium cause he was busy and no one person can rule the galaxy on their own. Also it shows that the Emp has no real care about wanting to rule the human race seeing as he could have ruled over humanity before humanity even traveled space if he wanted to.
The petitioner's city IIRC was created by people who were waiting for the chance to petition the palace or something IIRC. That sprung up around the time the Emp was busy with the Webway project and then dealing with the damage caused by Magnus.
Also about accepting one's lot in life? That applies to humans in the Tau empire and humans following Chaos too. Freedom doesn't exist in 40k.
So what we have is Angron, as one of the only primarchs to fail in subjugating the world he grew up on prior to being reunited with daddy, being forcefully pulled away from a fight that he should have plainly been left to prosecute. The Emperor should have let Angron finish what he started even if failure meant his death. Stealing Angron away didn't just dishonor Angron and his freedom fighters, but dishonored the very ideals and purpose the Emperor supposedly had for him. The level of irony is almost comical.
Angron was pissed because the Emp saved him and not his fellow slaves. Angron wanted to die and the Emp didn't want that.
here's what someone stated about the entire thing between Angron and the Emp on another forum:
The Emperor didn't seem to know what to do with Angron. Angron was broken and the world surrendered to the Imperium so in theory the fighting should be over, but there was no way Angron and his rebels were going to go for that. So the Emperor takes Angron and lets the locals takes out the rebels, which of course makes Angron furious. The Emperor probably left Angron with his legion so they could bond and with Angron bonding with his genetic sons who are loyal to the Emperor and thus get past the whole incident in time.
)
