So with the new Dark Angels coming out with some new really cool looking units, as well as a new codex, I feel like being a codex player is increasingly foolish. If you want to paint your own scheme, or choose from one of the very cool chapters that just doesn't have it's own codex, you'll be missing out on some very powerful units, and even if you don't care about how uber some units are, you're still missing out on some awesome looking models. Maybe its foolish to fell slighted every time a codex comes out, but I don't think my chapter will EVER get its own codex.

I am assuming that since GW encourages you to buy every model for everything ever, instead of filling out your own army, and most of the people at my FLGS tend to field whatever is new, this wont bother most people, but I don't have the cash to buy everything that comes out.

Sorry, guess I'm just venting, but am I the only one who feels this way?

It has ever been thus and ever will be! You see the new stuff and think "I'd love some of that!" but it passes. Codex:SM is a solid codex with masses and masses of choices. That for me is the key for collecting, the ability to field a good variety of possible units and combinations so you can have a good collection and a choice of what to field. I guess for WAAC players the ideal would be to put together a list of all the strongest units in all the codices and then make them into one uber army! Don't forget allies as a way to get some nice and different units into your army. Your SM can have some DA or whatever. Imperial armies have loads of potential additional units to pick from as allies. Try being nids, codex with little choice and many, many units with no available upgrades and no allies to spice it up!

I feel similar. Every marine codex seems to one up the vanilla one, as they contain the same units as the vanilla plus spiffy new ones. Oh well.

If you play Codex Marines, you can play pretty much any of the codex books with only a few adjustments.

I don't really see anything about Codex: Dark Angels that would be hard to play "Counts As".

And the up side is that your Marines won't be wearing stupid looking hoodie bathrobes.

Agree with the above-C:SM is fine

Armies that need the most help IMO

BT (Seriously GW we buy an upgrade sprue that costs almost as much as another tac box...show us some love)
Sisters
Nids depending on who you ask

 Texanity wrote:
I feel similar. Every marine codex seems to one up the vanilla one, as they contain the same units as the vanilla plus spiffy new ones. Oh well.

I think that is certainly true of some of the SM codices.

GK, whatever you think of them, do have substantial limits on what they can take from the main SM codex - no speeders, no bikes, no predators, no vindicators, etc, etc. What they have is excellent but it is different and has less variety. Some, notably BA, are SM++++++. BA can take everything in the SM codex and loads of cool and powerful additional stuff. With added furiosos, death company, sanguinor, stormbricks, etc. You lose nothing but you gain a lot. It certainly seems a no-brainer to some extent, if you want SM get BA, what do you lose? You only lose the chance to have a different paint scheme in effect but gain loads of cool gear. It looks like DA will be the same, vanilla SM with loads and loads of add-ons. We'll see.

I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

Isengard wrote:
I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:

 Texanity wrote:
I feel similar. Every marine codex seems to one up the vanilla one, as they contain the same units as the vanilla plus spiffy new ones. Oh well.

I think that is certainly true of some of the SM codices.

GK, whatever you think of them, do have substantial limits on what they can take from the main SM codex - no speeders, no bikes, no predators, no vindicators, etc, etc. What they have is excellent but it is different and has less variety. Some, notably BA, are SM++++++. BA can take everything in the SM codex and loads of cool and powerful additional stuff. With added furiosos, death company, sanguinor, stormbricks, etc. You lose nothing but you gain a lot. It certainly seems a no-brainer to some extent, if you want SM get BA, what do you lose? You only lose the chance to have a different paint scheme in effect but gain loads of cool gear. It looks like DA will be the same, vanilla SM with loads and loads of add-ons. We'll see.

I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

You also miss out on Combat Tactics, all the Special Characters, Thunderfire Cannons, cheap TH/SS Terminators and Masters of the Forge.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:

 Texanity wrote:
I feel similar. Every marine codex seems to one up the vanilla one, as they contain the same units as the vanilla plus spiffy new ones. Oh well.

I think that is certainly true of some of the SM codices.

GK, whatever you think of them, do have substantial limits on what they can take from the main SM codex - no speeders, no bikes, no predators, no vindicators, etc, etc. What they have is excellent but it is different and has less variety. Some, notably BA, are SM++++++. BA can take everything in the SM codex and loads of cool and powerful additional stuff. With added furiosos, death company, sanguinor, stormbricks, etc. You lose nothing but you gain a lot. It certainly seems a no-brainer to some extent, if you want SM get BA, what do you lose? You only lose the chance to have a different paint scheme in effect but gain loads of cool gear. It looks like DA will be the same, vanilla SM with loads and loads of add-ons. We'll see.

I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

You also miss out on Combat Tactics, all the Special Characters, Thunderfire Cannons, cheap TH/SS Terminators and Masters of the Forge.

I don't remember that restriction...

Unless you were talking to someone I quoted?

 Pouncey wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:

 Texanity wrote:
I feel similar. Every marine codex seems to one up the vanilla one, as they contain the same units as the vanilla plus spiffy new ones. Oh well.

I think that is certainly true of some of the SM codices.

GK, whatever you think of them, do have substantial limits on what they can take from the main SM codex - no speeders, no bikes, no predators, no vindicators, etc, etc. What they have is excellent but it is different and has less variety. Some, notably BA, are SM++++++. BA can take everything in the SM codex and loads of cool and powerful additional stuff. With added furiosos, death company, sanguinor, stormbricks, etc. You lose nothing but you gain a lot. It certainly seems a no-brainer to some extent, if you want SM get BA, what do you lose? You only lose the chance to have a different paint scheme in effect but gain loads of cool gear. It looks like DA will be the same, vanilla SM with loads and loads of add-ons. We'll see.

I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

You also miss out on Combat Tactics, all the Special Characters, Thunderfire Cannons, cheap TH/SS Terminators and Masters of the Forge.

I don't remember that restriction...

Unless you were talking to someone I quoted?

Sorry, I should've worded that better, the stuff I listed is stuff you miss out on if you play BA.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Sorry, I should've worded that better, the stuff I listed is stuff you miss out on if you play BA.

It's alright, I could've been a LOT clearer in what part I was replying to. ^^

FWP...

Seriously? Specialist chapters get the new cool stuff and then the vanilla codex gets it afterwards. Chill out...

Isengard wrote:
It has ever been thus and ever will be! You see the new stuff and think "I'd love some of that!" but it passes. Codex:SM is a solid codex with masses and masses of choices. That for me is the key for collecting, the ability to field a good variety of possible units and combinations so you can have a good collection and a choice of what to field. I guess for WAAC players the ideal would be to put together a list of all the strongest units in all the codices and then make them into one uber army! Don't forget allies as a way to get some nice and different units into your army. Your SM can have some DA or whatever. Imperial armies have loads of potential additional units to pick from as allies. Try being nids, codex with little choice and many, many units with no available upgrades and no allies to spice it up!

Quoted for truth.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:

 Texanity wrote:
I feel similar. Every marine codex seems to one up the vanilla one, as they contain the same units as the vanilla plus spiffy new ones. Oh well.

I think that is certainly true of some of the SM codices.

GK, whatever you think of them, do have substantial limits on what they can take from the main SM codex - no speeders, no bikes, no predators, no vindicators, etc, etc. What they have is excellent but it is different and has less variety. Some, notably BA, are SM++++++. BA can take everything in the SM codex and loads of cool and powerful additional stuff. With added furiosos, death company, sanguinor, stormbricks, etc. You lose nothing but you gain a lot. It certainly seems a no-brainer to some extent, if you want SM get BA, what do you lose? You only lose the chance to have a different paint scheme in effect but gain loads of cool gear. It looks like DA will be the same, vanilla SM with loads and loads of add-ons. We'll see.

I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

You also miss out on Combat Tactics, all the Special Characters, Thunderfire Cannons, cheap TH/SS Terminators and Masters of the Forge.

I don't remember that restriction...

Unless you were talking to someone I quoted?

Sorry, I should've worded that better, the stuff I listed is stuff you miss out on if you play BA.

Yeah, fair play. There is some stuff you miss but in terms of the basic units you get virtually the whole SM codex and then a load of other stuff. If they need a seperate codex why bother for just a few changes, they could easily do the whole lot of SM in one codex with a few pages for each major chapter.

All I need is the vanilla marine codex. SW does not interest me, I do not like the current GK, some stuff in the BA codex is just... not my cup of tea, those new DA termies look nice but that's it. The Vanilla marine codex is a good choice in my opinnion. Besides I like running all scout lists and the Vanilla marines are best for that purpose.

I play Codex Space Marines and Dark Angels. I've felt left behind with Angels for a long time, so I am excited about the new codex.

That being said, I'm not going to give up playing standard Space Marines. There's just way too much flexibility with their lists already...and I'm guessing you'll get even more cool toys next time a Codex rolls out. I'm also guessing you won't have to wait too long for revisions- since you're playing their flagship army.

Hrm, and i thought the only people being punished were those who don't play spess muhreens ( or IG, IG is cool too ). Seriously, if you do not like what's in the vanilla dex then simply play one of it's variations.
One bunch of Emperor bothering psychopaths isn't that much different from another bunch of Emperor bothering psychopaths.

The standard codex has lots of stuff that most of the other codexes can't take, and is a really solid codex.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If you play Codex Marines, you can play pretty much any of the codex books with only a few adjustments.

I don't really see anything about Codex: Dark Angels that would be hard to play "Counts As".

Ugh. Not generally advised.

 Kaldor wrote:
The standard codex has lots of stuff that most of the other codexes can't take, and is a really solid codex.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
If you play Codex Marines, you can play pretty much any of the codex books with only a few adjustments.

I don't really see anything about Codex: Dark Angels that would be hard to play "Counts As".

Ugh. Not generally advised.

Try to keep your personal preferences based on some bizarre hangup you have, classified as opinion, and not passed off as some kind of fact. Ultimately, there are very few differences between Red, Blue, and Green Space Marines aside from modeling aesthetics. With a bit of preplanned modeling choices, magnets, and a few supplementary models, a Space Marine player can use three or four codex books with no problem.

Why would enthusiastic players limit themselves?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Try to keep your personal preferences based on some bizarre hangup you have, classified as opinion, and not passed off as some kind of fact. Ultimately, there are very few differences between Red, Blue, and Green Space Marines aside from modeling aesthetics. With a bit of preplanned modeling choices, magnets, and a few supplementary models, a Space Marine player can use three or four codex books with no problem.

Why would enthusiastic players limit themselves?

Sure. And I can just use chits of cardboard with 'space marine' written on it.

Doesn't make it a generally advisable idea, though.

 Kaldor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Try to keep your personal preferences based on some bizarre hangup you have, classified as opinion, and not passed off as some kind of fact. Ultimately, there are very few differences between Red, Blue, and Green Space Marines aside from modeling aesthetics. With a bit of preplanned modeling choices, magnets, and a few supplementary models, a Space Marine player can use three or four codex books with no problem.

Why would enthusiastic players limit themselves?

Sure. And I can just use chits of cardboard with 'space marine' written on it.

Doesn't make it a generally advisable idea, though.

Why waste cardboard when you can play Paperhammer 40k?

Why waste time and paper and ink when you can spend 20 bucks total and get Dawn of War 1 and all its expansions?

 Kaldor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Try to keep your personal preferences based on some bizarre hangup you have, classified as opinion, and not passed off as some kind of fact. Ultimately, there are very few differences between Red, Blue, and Green Space Marines aside from modeling aesthetics. With a bit of preplanned modeling choices, magnets, and a few supplementary models, a Space Marine player can use three or four codex books with no problem.

Why would enthusiastic players limit themselves?

Sure. And I can just use chits of cardboard with 'space marine' written on it.

Doesn't make it a generally advisable idea, though.

Yes because having actual space marine models in a different paint color is the same thing as pieces of cardboard with words on them...

Edit:I actually think that the codex:space marines is perfect and we aren't being punished at all.

Wow, you guys are just plain awful at analogies.


I guess we can consider that case closed. What if his Marines are purple? Then does he just get to play using none of the Codex books? Poor bastard.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Wow, you guys are just plain awful at analogies.


I guess we can consider that case closed. What if his Marines are purple? Then does he just get to play using none of the Codex books? Poor bastard.

To be honest, I was trying to be a bit silly. Also, cardboard Marines reminded me of paperhammer. ^^

Purple? Probably he'd get to play FW's Horus Heresy as Emperor's Children. ^^

Once you use generic marines as any codex you want, there is no difference between those generic marines and any kind of counter or marker used to represent those units.

Of course, the rule of cool applies to this as it does to anything else. If you have a beautifully crafted custom marine Chapter, and the best rules to suit it are 'X' Chapters codex, then go for it.

Otherwise, it's not generally advisable.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I guess we can consider that case closed. What if his Marines are purple?

Then he gets to play with the regular Space Marine codex.

Do try to keep up, darling.

It's ok, when they writes the Vanilla codex again, we'll get all the cool stuff from the other Marine Codices in some form or another.

Maybe nothing like the Deathwing Knights, or Sanguinary Guard, but stuff like Terminator Armies (First Company Captains (especially if the rumour is true and Captain Agemman is getting rules :O)), we already have Ravenwing armies. Maybe if Captains take Jump Packs they can make Assault Marines troops (Captain of the 8th), or even Shrike will get it tacked on.

Every Codex has generally been a less restrictive incarnation of the previous, so here's hoping, at least.

The vanilla codex might not have all the shiny new things or all the special rules, but it is solid. And you can do a lot of variations on that solid foundation by picking other units and selecting your HQ carefully.

Crazyterran wrote:
It's ok, when they writes the Vanilla codex again, we'll get all the cool stuff from the other Marine Codices in some form or another.

Maybe nothing like the Deathwing Knights, or Sanguinary Guard, but stuff like Terminator Armies (First Company Captains (especially if the rumour is true and Captain Agemman is getting rules :O)), we already have Ravenwing armies. Maybe if Captains take Jump Packs they can make Assault Marines troops (Captain of the 8th), or even Shrike will get it tacked on.

Every Codex has generally been a less restrictive incarnation of the previous, so here's hoping, at least.

If the vanilla gets all that, the chaos codex might as well give up on trying.

And thus we come back to the question "why are so many multiple marine books necessary when they're all so alike and people try to treat them all as one big book anyway?"

C:SM got a nice little flyer when 6th dropped. It may be pricey and a bit ugly, but at least you got a new toy while most others had to wait their turn.

That and as stated above, you're lucky enough that you can always just play your marines as Counts As X.

I'd like to see an Eldar player try and use them as Counts as Orks or anything else for that matter. A lot more leeway is required.

I suppose you guys are right. It just generally seems that whatever version the regular codex gets, another codex gets it better. And I like the way the other models look, but for example I like storm ravens, cant used them with vanilla. I like the new landspeeder vengeance, probably wont get to use that. The new special characters from DV and the new Dark Angels release are pretty cool, but i don't think I can even sand off all the swords on them to convert them.

Admittedly, this isn't a huge problem, and I like codex marines for their versatility... It;s just that whatever unit you pick, they seem to be better in another codex.

Hopefully this stuff will get added in some for to my codex later, in which case I don't mind not having space-werewolves and space-vampires.

EDITED

Indeed it was to harsh....I didn't notice the 2nd page >.>

A little bit too harsh, especially when he already conceded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I understand how you feel though. Imagine how it is to play xenos. SM get every other update and always get the shiniest new toys. So many people get to run their marines as the flavor of the month marines to run those neat new rules and new units.

There is no harm in trying to start a new army.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
A little bit too harsh, especially when he already conceded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I understand how you feel though. Imagine how it is to play xenos. SM get every other update and always get the shiniest new toys. So many people get to run their marines as the flavor of the month marines to run those neat new rules and new units.

There is no harm in trying to start a new army.

At least Xenos get new models and an actual Codex with their Codex updates. : P

P.S. That was meant in humor.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
It;s just that whatever unit you pick, they seem to be better in another codex.

That could be true, ofc. But none of the others can do quite as many FOC slot changes or manage to affect quite as large a part of their army by selecting the right HQ.

Sure, a GK Grand Master can make some units scoring. Sure, Commander Dante can make Sanguinary Guards Troops. SW can get Wolf Guard as Troops with the right guy, Logan was it? SW also have a HQ that makes his unit Relentless, a perfect thing for some SW choices....

Codex Marines can still do that game better IMO - their individual units might not all be as impressive (though not far from) but they can do more of it. They simply have more HQs that affect larger parts of the army.

Codex: SM is probably the most versatile dex available. Will the new DA Dex be? That remains to be seen as we've only been shown shiny models and not a single rule or stat line. I figure Standard Vanilla Marines will always, and I mean always be the middle of the pack dex with huge variety and will be missing some of the flasher units that other dex's might get but will always get the bulk access to most things.

And if you really want to try a dex with a handicap try 'Nids. They can not get any allies and they are primarily an assault army and shooting got better in 6th. (Now I know there are some very nice things about 6th for 'Nids but in this case... ) They also have a lot of expensive non-adjustable units, and a few choice units fighting for FOC slots where others can take allies and bring in similiar units without that worry.

So, long story short. GW rewards you for using the Vanilla Marine Dex because it lets you build almost any force you want with access to a huge variety of models to choose from that all have their merits on the tabletop. I don't know if there really is a true stinker in the Vanilla Dex (looking at you Pyrovore and Lictor in the 'Nid dex...)

The standard marine codex is fine. Sure its suffers abit from codex creep and falls down the scale with every release but it's versatile enough and gets little updates (storm talon) although i would like to see Flak missiles as an option for squads

Besides when they finally get round to updating it balance shall be restored (hopefully)

Lastly, victory is all the sweeter if you can achieve it with vanilla marines without all those newfangled special rules and units....

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[
You also miss out on Combat Tactics, all the Special Characters, Thunderfire Cannons, cheap TH/SS Terminators and Masters of the Forge.

They lose Combat Tactics and gain army-wide FNP and Furious Charge - a clear gain.

The SM charectors are alright, but Blood Angels get a MC (Strength 10 and jump pack) with an infantry profile. Not so bad in 6th but in 5th was a major headache for many armies.

Thunderfire cannons - yeah, BA lose out on them. Meh.

Cheap TH/SS Terminators - vanilla marines get these? BA terminators get Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and a 1/6 chance of +1 attack.

Master of the Forge - man if I had a penny for every time I heard a BA player say "I wish I could take a master of the forge"...


BA aren't particularly over-powered in 6th, in fact they will blow away like a fart in the wind. But they are definitely Space Marines++

Blood Angels don't "gain" army wide FNP and Furious Charge instead of Combat Taactics, they have to pay for it.

Given how long the Dark Angrls players have suffered from a crappy codex while standard marines got not one but two relatively OP army books.. I don't feel much sympathy.

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Blood Angels don't "gain" army wide FNP and Furious Charge instead of Combat Taactics, they have to pay for it.

And Grey Knights have to pay for pysbolt ammo. Imperial Guard have to pay for vendettas.

The advantages to C:SM over the specialist books are in versatility; the other Space Marine books get some fancy toys, yes, but the fancy toys lock them into some very specific playstyles since everyone uses the specialist book just to unlock their Death Company/Wolf Guard/who knows what; C:SM is and has always been the book that can do absolutely everything, just not as well as any of the specialist books. You can outshoot Blood Angels, outnumber Dark Angels, outmove Space Wolves, and probably out-everything Black Templars with the vanilla Codex at this point; and best of all, you can switch off or combine playstyles instead of having a force that requires you to play them a certain way.

C:SM may not have all the fancy toys that the other books get, but they're solid, reliable, dependable, easily customizable, and can fill more roles and more situations than the 'specialist' books; Chapter Tactics and Special Characters can give you a broad variety of different lists built from just the one Codex.

So no, you don't have a top-tier competitive list and you can't keep pace with the munchkins. If you're trying to keep pace with the munchkins, play a different army; C:SM is for people who are more interested in varying play style, varying paint jobs, more customizability, and in the long run a more interesting (if less powerful) army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BryllCream wrote:

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Blood Angels don't "gain" army wide FNP and Furious Charge instead of Combat Taactics, they have to pay for it.

And Grey Knights have to pay for pysbolt ammo. Imperial Guard have to pay for vendettas.

Psybolt Ammo isn't honestly the nastiest thing about the GK book; when applied to Psyflemen Dreads consider that they're about the only thing with a gun with longer than 24" range in the goddamn book, when applied to infantry squads it tends to be cripplingly overpriced. Guard do pay for Vendettas, just not enough since the prices were written before the Flyer rules and a price change is apparently too much of a patch to stick in an FAQ.

 BryllCream wrote:

They lose Combat Tactics and gain army-wide FNP and Furious Charge - a clear gain.

As has already been said, they pay for army-wide FNP and have a 1/6 chance to get Furious Charge. Not a "clear gain", especially with the new regroup rules making Combat Tactics pretty good.

 BryllCream wrote:

The SM charectors are alright, but Blood Angels get a MC (Strength 10 and jump pack) with an infantry profile. Not so bad in 6th but in 5th was a major headache for many armies.

A 250-point beatstick Character who doesn't add anything other than pure brawn to the army and yet has to rely on psychic powers (he isn't S10 or Jump Infantry base, remember?) in an edition where Farseers and Rune Priests are everywhere. To top it off, he's not even AP2 anymore.

As for the Vanilla SCs we've got Vulkan, Pedro, Khan and Shrike who can change how the army works, as well as Calgar and Lysander who beat face better than Mephiston for either less or slightly more points than Mephiston and don't have to bother about eating every plasma gun in the enemy arsenal because they aren't independent characters.

 BryllCream wrote:

Thunderfire cannons - yeah, BA lose out on them. Meh.

Thunderfire Cannons were OK units in 5th; with the new artillery rules they're actually pretty good. Meh back at you.

 BryllCream wrote:

Cheap TH/SS Terminators - vanilla marines get these? BA terminators get Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and a 1/6 chance of +1 attack.

BA pay more for theirs, don't get FNP or Furious Charge baseline and certainly don't have a 1/6 chance of +1 attack. The Red Thirst gives you a 1/6 chance to get Furious Charge last I looked.

 BryllCream wrote:
Master of the Forge - man if I had a penny for every time I heard a BA player say "I wish I could take a master of the forge"...

So what if you personally don't like the option? It's still there and being used by people to build armies.

It's generally accepted that Blood Angels are marines that are simply more powerful in general. Ignore it if you like.

A Space Marine is a Space Marines. Even without changing paint, you can go between codexes at your will. I think of C:SM as a core structure , with some unit's that aren't in others codexes and some units it is lacking. It's similar to all the other codexes in the way it's formed, tbh.

I really like the new DA flyer (at least the variant without a shrine on it's back). I could easily see myself getting it to field with allies rules and painting it in the same paint scheme as my existing Ultramarines army. The same thing people have done with Storm Ravens.

On the other hand, I think I could also have a lot of fun with a fresh army by using a Deathwing force (using DA codex) painted appropriately to represent the Ultramarines 1st Company. Especially as basic Terminator squads can be done cheaply by converting Dark Vengeance models, at about 15 dollars for a 5-man squad. It would make for an interesting force, although it'd earn the wrath of Kaldor, by using DA rules for an army painted in non-DA colors (lol).

Really any SM can be interchanged between vanilla, DA, BA, and BT. SW is a little bit harder and GK is harder than that, but those four are perfectly interchangeable

I don't know why you're complaining, I play Codex Marines often, in tourneys against the nercon, GK and daemon scum of the earth and do very well.

Just because you don't have the new hotness doesn't mean your book is crap. Understand your codex and it will bring you victory.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Really any SM can be interchanged between vanilla, DA, BA, and BT. SW is a little bit harder and GK is harder than that, but those four are perfectly interchangeable

I agree, though that statement will start the endless argument with crazy analogies to support either side.

I really only rule out Grey Knights because they are so visually different. Other than certain special pieces that are for looks only (like the wrist chains on the weapons, etc), Black Templars are simply black Space marines/Scouts with special rules, just like Salamanders are. BA has specialty units with unique wargear as well as Space Wolves to a lesser extent, but basic tactical Space Marines from DA, BA, and Space Wolves all can be made from the exact same model.

If you are building a very simple army of any Marine Codex (for example, one with Tactical, Devastator and Assault marines, but no Sanguinary guard or Thunderwolves), there is nothing to stop you from having a green army and using them as Blood Angels, as long as you are clear with your opponent about the fact that you are absolutely following that Codexes rules, and follow all WYSIWYG rules on the models.

Hell, I could make legal Wolf Claws from the Assault Marine box set, if I wanted a Great Company that follows a Lord that prefers his troops to have very little armor embellishment.

Who cares what color they are. SM are SM when it boils down to it. A bike is a bike, a pred is a pred, a rhino is a rhino. They all look the same.

You could always use the argument, its my own chapter.

There is not a single "good" spacemarine chapter, including the Grey Knights. All of them are perfectly willing to throw away whatever morals they have if their superiors demand it, all in the name of some rotten corpse and his decadent lackeys on Terra.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
If you want to paint your own scheme, or choose from one of the very cool chapters that just doesn't have it's own codex, you'll be missing out on some very powerful units

I disagree. If you have painted your own colors, then why don't you just take the new DA models you like and use the DA rules. Say your playing a 'succession chapter'.

You don't even need to neccessarly do that! I used these guys as a 'counts as' space wolves army. When people asked me about it, I said I liked the playstyle of the wolves but the color scheme of the ultramarines. Noone ever gave me grief for it. Everything was WYSIWYG, even wolf banners.


Thats the best thing about loyalist marines over any other army. You can swap army books and not have to pay a stupidly pretty penny for a new army.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
What if his Marines are purple? Then does he just get to play using none of the Codex books? Poor bastard.

My Marines are purple... And I don't even like Slaanesh much, either.


Personally, I don't like how half the codices are Spess Mehreen derivatives. I would love to have one big Codex Omnibus: Space Marines, and would even go as far as to consolidate Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights into Codex: Inquisition. I find it unfair that there are at least six separate codices for Space Marines, but Chaos is all crammed into one book. (Oh how I would love an Alpha Legion or Iron Warriors codex...)

Edit: Was going to make a point but got sidetracked. The best thing about Space Marines is that they are simply suggestions. C:SM is just a catchall for if no other codices catch your eye. Remember that Space Marine Chapters can be founded and split up into different groups, and as they are derived from the same geneseed I see no reason why they wouldn't have the same rules or abilities.

Space Marines get more Codex books because they sell more models, lol. It's really just that simple. Games Workshop cranks out multiple codex books exactly because Space Marine armies are so interchangeable. When I set out to reconfigure my 31mm upscaled Space Marines, I did it in a manner so they could be played with C:SM, BA, and SW with minimal adjustments. I imagine they'll probably be compatible with the new DA codex too. If I were the type inclined to play more often, Games Workshop could theoretically sell me four different books, instead of just one. They can't price up an Omnibus, because then the single book becomes significantly more expensive, and turns off new players. And if they price it down, then they lose the revenue from selling multiple books.

4 x $40-50 books is more revenue than say 1 x $70-80 book, for example, and 1 x $150 book would probably not sell very well.

Another factor is that Games Workshop doesn't make most of its money from one time bulk purchases most likely. It makes it by slowly but surely eating up its players' spending money. They can get a bigger share of your wallet by offering a new $50 book every year or so, than by trying to get hundreds of dollars at once, because you're more likely to have that $50 to blow at any given time, than to have $400 to dump on hobby materials. Their release calendar is designed to give you new things to buy over time. And again, Space Marines are their biggest catalog item.

FW (ewwwwww ForgeWorld) can bring lots of new, nice options to your army. Want to kill marines? Boom, Minotaurs. Want to have furious charge, extra CCW and Rage? boom, Tyberos. Want to have an all infantry army? Boom, mantis warriors.

Just have some fun

 Kaldor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I guess we can consider that case closed. What if his Marines are purple?

Then he gets to play with the regular Space Marine codex.

Do try to keep up, darling.

Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Otherwise, it's not generally advisable darling.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
So with the new Dark Angels coming out with some new really cool looking units, as well as a new codex, I feel like being a codex player is increasingly foolish. If you want to paint your own scheme, or choose from one of the very cool chapters that just doesn't have it's own codex, you'll be missing out on some very powerful units, and even if you don't care about how uber some units are, you're still missing out on some awesome looking models. Maybe its foolish to fell slighted every time a codex comes out, but I don't think my chapter will EVER get its own codex.

I am assuming that since GW encourages you to buy every model for everything ever, instead of filling out your own army, and most of the people at my FLGS tend to field whatever is new, this wont bother most people, but I don't have the cash to buy everything that comes out.

Sorry, guess I'm just venting, but am I the only one who feels this way?

No you aren't. These complaints have been constant since they started putting out full codex books for specific chapters. Why play vanilla marines when you can build a force that does it better AND cheaper than the vanilla codex can? Of course the marine books are the absolute easiest place for GW to bring some balance into things, but they don't. The Vanilla codex should be the baseline and all of the individual codexes should be balanced with respect to it. For example, given that Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs are all better than Terminators & Veterans, Tacticals or Devastators in the vaniall codex, a space wolf army should be hard hitting, but much smaller than a vanilla marine force because their units should all be more expensive. Annoyingly they are pretty much cheaper across the board which is just dumb. Same with the other specific chapter books. Only two that really weren't too bad were Dark Angels and the Black Templars books. Now with a new Dark angels book appearing I am curious if that is going to change now or not. After buying the Dark Venganace box I suddenly got the urge to build a new Dark Angels force based on the old book. Hoping they don't become a dime a dozen with an overpowered book...

That said it is silly to feel slighted when a codex comes out. If you don't use it then forget about it. It really is that simple. I had an Imperial Fists force built off the vanilla codex and it was still fun to play regardless of the existence of the other chapter books out there and did just fine playing against them when I focused my mind on what my force could and couldn't do instead of worrying about the extra bonuses my opponent had in their book. I still enjoyed collecting, building and using the army. Of course when the new vanilla marines codex comes out you can be sure that it will most definitely come out with some new toys and units that will make you happy. Just a question of how long until it comes out. Hopefully by then your funding situation will improve enough to enable you to add some then.

Skriker



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KingDeath wrote:
There is not a single "good" spacemarine chapter, including the Grey Knights. All of them are perfectly willing to throw away whatever morals they have if their superiors demand it, all in the name of some rotten corpse and his decadent lackeys on Terra.

Ummmm...they don't throw away their morals. They live by the morals that were bred and indoctrinated into them. Anything not the Emperor or Chapter is beneath notice. Anything that refuses or threatens the emperor or chapter is a target. *Those* are their morals and they live by them every day. They are pretty much a bunch of genetically enhanced thugs.

Skriker

 Kaldor wrote:


Otherwise, it's not generally advisable.

I advised it all the time when I worked at the FLGS. There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to stretch your dollar's worth in this hobby.

davou wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I guess we can consider that case closed. What if his Marines are purple?

Then he gets to play with the regular Space Marine codex.

Do try to keep up, darling.

Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Otherwise, it's not generally advisable darling.

I disagree, a space marine is no different to another space marine from a different codex. Just the color. As long as you have the correct codex, you can play your green and pink zebra striped space marines as any faction.

Ok well I think what your getting at is that with each new codex you get the C:SM+1 effect. Surely there is something that Codex marines should get that other non codex marines shouldn't have access to... in order to keep balance between the C:SM and the variants. (they do)

After all no single chapter is stronger than the others, codex astartes or not. And so should all balance out in terms strengths and weaknesses. But... they never do... the latest codex is always the strongest and I see DA as no different in that respect... from what I see its plasma-everything and new punishment-everything-weapons... (no surprises there)

 Lordhat wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:


Otherwise, it's not generally advisable.

I advised it all the time when I worked at the FLGS. There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to stretch your dollar's worth in this hobby.

Shhh.

His way of doing it is best.

 g0atsticks wrote:

davou wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I guess we can consider that case closed. What if his Marines are purple?

Then he gets to play with the regular Space Marine codex.

Do try to keep up, darling.

Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Otherwise, it's not generally advisable darling.

I disagree, a space marine is no different to another space marine from a different codex. Just the color. As long as you have the correct codex, you can play your green and pink zebra striped space marines as any faction.

Haha, I was being sarcastic. Trying to poke fun at kaldor and this that and everything else


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Ok well I think what your getting at is that with each new codex you get the C:SM+1 effect. Surely there is something that Codex marines should get that other non codex marines shouldn't have access to

Unique special characters are aplenty in the SM codex. As are the changes to force org that comes with those characters, and the modifications of individual special rules.

IMO, the biggest strength in a C:SM list is that you can build a list that's vastly less suseptible to (rock paper scissors) compared to the other codices. You sacrifice a bit of punch to do it, but I enjoy playing lists that forfiet a higher win/loss ratio in favor of a few less crushing defeats.

C:SM really shines with its HQs abilities. I envy the Vulkan and Pedro, and the others that aren't popping out to me. I wish I could give my guys outflank master, crafted weapons, etc...

Look if your worried about DA being SM +1 look at the history soon you will have all our stuff.

Also if you want to use the DA codex to represent a first company Ultras.... COOL
IF you want to use BA to represent 8th company. Cool
SM for 10th company?. heck yeah

It your stuff you do what you want.

Welcome to Codex Creep. I think Codex Space Marines has it better than most.

Think about all those poor xenos codexes that sit in obscurity and thank your lucky stars.

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
the latest codex is always the strongest and I see DA as no different in that respect...

Blatantly not true. IG and Space Wolves dominated 5th edition right from the start all the way up to Codex: Grey Knights and then only grudgingly made some room for GK and later Necrons at their power level.

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:
I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

Yes. It's actually funny that taking a generic captain on a bike is worlds better than the White Scars HQ both in terms of cost and effectiveness. I was a bit surprised about it when I was building my SM biker army. It just seems like the named HQs should be better than "building" them yourself; not the other way around.

clively wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

Isengard wrote:
I'd like to see a massive new SM codex with absolutely loads of options and specific bits and bobs for a variety of chapters. That would help to provide the variety and choice. I expect a lot of chapter-specific special characters which 'unlock' chapter specific units into troops or whatever, say bikes for White Scars, etc, etc.

If I remember right, taking a Captain with a bike allows you to take Bike Squads as troops in the current SM Codex.

Yes. It's actually funny that taking a generic captain on a bike is worlds better than the White Scars HQ both in terms of cost and effectiveness. There's no real reason to take the White Scars HQ.

Except the part where Khan lets everyone outflank...

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Well, except for the fact that you can do whatever the hell you want with your models as long as you follow the printed rules and WYSIWYG forms, and there is absolutely no rule that forces you to paint an army a certain way based on a codex. In fact, I don't think any of the rules say you can;t take another Codexes marines as allies, and paint them as a special part of your army, either, like a "Black Templars" Storm Raven.

Once again I will bring up old examples of using Deathwing rules to represent the Ultramarines 1st company fighting in their Terminator armor (or any other Chapter at all that has a Veteran company built as such), or using Ravenwing rules to represent an assault company on bikes.

Now, I might lean less towards the use of certain special units that stereotypically belong to a Codex chapter or their successors, but that's my personal preference if I was playing them, not anyone else's or any rule in existence.

And nobody had better try bringing up anything about "Deathwing" in a black and yellow Scythes of the Emperor paint scheme being equal to paper cutouts glued to bases! And a Yellow Space Wolf is not equal to an Ork being used as an Eldar Guardian!

Wow this thread kinda exploded. Theres a lot of people with some very committed views.

My biggest upset was honestly all the cool SM units that I can't use in my army, at least not yet. I enjoy the modelling more than the gaming most of the time, and my win loss record shows that. However, it is a bit frustrating sometimes when people roll up with all their shiny toys.

Didn't want to start a pity party either, but i think it's too late to push off the flames comin' off some people.
If only I had enough money to but random cool units AND have an army...

 Kaldor wrote:

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Says who? Some random purist on the Internet? There's nothing prohibiting a person from painting their army the way they like. GW actually encourages it. How can you tell there are surely no blue BA successor chapters? That's right, you can't.

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Blood Angels don't "gain" army wide FNP and Furious Charge instead of Combat Taactics, they have to pay for it.

To all the people thinking that BA have to pay for anything, I give you this exercise- build an army using any army builder, let's say 1500 points of whatever you fancy. Take the same units in a BA list, an SM list and an SW list. (where possible, so do take Tacticals in BA and Grey Hunters in SW, and if you wanted a 5 man Terminator squad take a SW Wolf Guard squad and equip it with the same items - I know that Power Fists/ Storm Bolters cost more on Wolf Guard than they do on Vanilla Terminators, but bear with me).

What you will see is the following:

- BA can take the exact same amount of units and models + enough Sanguinary Priests to actually get FNP on everyone. That's because they have cheaper units.
- Even when using overpriced units like that sucky setup on Wolf Guard, you still manage to have the same amount of units and models on Wolves as you on Vanilla marines - they make up those points on Long Fangs, for example. Again, cheaper units.
- In both armies You have extra options, like Counter Attack on most units and better special options for GH in SW, or FNP/Furious Charge, Better Jump packs, Assault troops in BA.
- You get that ALL on top of what C:SM already has. You only lose Combat Tactics. That's the only major loss for those 2 codici.
- You lose Thunderfire Cannons, Bike Captains, Masters of the Forge and Ironclad Dreads.
- You get a plethora of different, sometimes better, units. (Furioso Dreads, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, Assault Squads in Troops)

From a competitive point of view, there is little to no reason to play C;SM over any other SM variant. BA are the easiest choice for a disgruntled C:SM player, with SW requiring more customization and model work.

I wonder how will DA relate to C:SM. I think that if we can call BA the SM+ then DA will be SM++ - I heard a rumour that their Tacticals will cost 70 points for 5 men and a Sarge. If that's correct then they'd be 20 points cheaper than a similar Tac squad. You can get a Rhino for 35 points in the SM codex.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Well, except for the fact that you can do whatever the hell you want with your models as long as you follow the printed rules and WYSIWYG forms, and there is absolutely no rule that forces you to paint an army a certain way based on a codex. In fact, I don't think any of the rules say you can;t take another Codexes marines as allies, and paint them as a special part of your army, either, like a "Black Templars" Storm Raven.

Once again I will bring up old examples of using Deathwing rules to represent the Ultramarines 1st company fighting in their Terminator armor (or any other Chapter at all that has a Veteran company built as such), or using Ravenwing rules to represent an assault company on bikes.

Now, I might lean less towards the use of certain special units that stereotypically belong to a Codex chapter or their successors, but that's my personal preference if I was playing them, not anyone else's or any rule in existence.

And nobody had better try bringing up anything about "Deathwing" in a black and yellow Scythes of the Emperor paint scheme being equal to paper cutouts glued to bases! And a Yellow Space Wolf is not equal to an Ork being used as an Eldar Guardian!

Well, absolutely. They're your models. You can put little schlongs on them all if you want. You can wear a T-shirt saying "Islam is a Lie, Homosexuality is a sin and Abortion is Murder" to games night if you want. But they're both terrible ideas and should be avoided. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Not to say I'm equating wearing a shirt like that with using blue marines as red marines. I'm just using it as an example to highlight the fact that just because you can do a thing doesn't mean that doing it is a good idea or even an acceptable idea.

And a yellow space wolf is not different in any way to an ork masquerading as an eldar. Generally speaking, anyway. Rule of cool applies as always. If you've got a cool custom chapter, and you really think the best codex to use is X codex, then go nuts. If you really want to represent an unorthodox army structure, and X codex is the best way to do it, then go nuts.

But if you just want to run your bare plastic marines as the flavour of the month, or you want to run your generic Ultramarine army as Space Wolves because the rules are better, then you're just a tool.

 AtariAssasin wrote:

My biggest upset was honestly all the cool SM units that I can't use in my army, at least not yet. I enjoy the modelling more than the gaming most of the time, and my win loss record shows that. However, it is a bit frustrating sometimes when people roll up with all their shiny toys.

This is the biggest annoyance for me to. It is one thing for different chapters to have slightly different rules, but it bugs me that now they've (again) started to limit certain vehicles to certain chapters. I just want to be able to get any model I happen to like and use it my army. I do not understand how this makes sense for marketing perspective either. I'd get new Nephilim fighter and probably a Storm Raven too if I could use them alongside with my existing Storm Talon.

. I just want to be able to get any model I happen to like and use it my army.

Use allies?

It'd be perfectly legal to use one of the Dark Angels flyers with another Codex Marine army, as an ally model.

Kaldor, franky, your position is just silly. Sometimes different rules than GW originally intended make more sense for representing an army. Think for example jump pack enthusiasts such as Raven Guard. Blood Angels codex has much better support for jump pack based warfare, so why not use that book instead? Or now as the new DA codex is upon us, how about the Ravenwing as White Scars? Sure, vanilla dex has decent support for bike armies, but I bet Ravenwing will be way better. For starters they can get bike riding veterans, something that is impossible with C:SM, yet a thing White Scars would certainly have. And as for Deathwing, certainly other chapters besides DA occassionally wield forces composed entirly of terminators. You just can't do that with vanilla dex.

And of course then there are all the DIY chapters that that may have absolutely any sort of organisational strucures an backgounds. Rules are a tool for representing stuff in the game, not a straitjacket.

Of course, it is annoying we even have to do this. Having separate books creates all sorts of odd links between different rules that limit the usability of the codex. Why can't we have an expert biker army that has Storm Talons? Why can't we have independent apotecharies in all terminator force? I would vastly prefer one big marine codex with flexible rules. You could choose traits or doctrines to represent different chapters.

 Alkasyn wrote:


I wonder how will DA relate to C:SM. I think that if we can call BA the SM+ then DA will be SM++ - I heard a rumour that their Tacticals will cost 70 points for 5 men and a Sarge. If that's correct then they'd be 20 points cheaper than a similar Tac squad. You can get a Rhino for 35 points in the SM codex.

I'll take some of that please All I only have 10 Tactical terminators anyways.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
It'd be perfectly legal to use one of the Dark Angels flyers with another Codex Marine army, as an ally model.

But not if it is not painted in DA colours if we ask Kaldor...

I know this is possible, but then I have to take the troops and HQ as well. Might still work with DA, I'll have to see. With Storm Raven this is limiting, as it can only carry stuff from BA codex.

I expect we'll see the new DA flyer being used as a stand-in for Storm Talons, seeing as it looks more like something that can fly.

 Kaldor wrote:

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/498488.page#5148906

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

He can't. I met a person in RL that had the same views as Kaldor. He owns over $10,000 in 40k models. Everyone else thinks its ok and would rather see painted models than a grey plastic force again.

 Kaldor wrote:
But if you just want to run your bare plastic marines as the flavour of the month, or you want to run your generic Ultramarine army as Space Wolves because the rules are better, then you're just a tool.

Kaldor, has it occurred to you that your in the minority opinion here?

As I mentioned earlier, I ran an Ultramarine army as Space Wolves for about 6 months at the end of 6th. I even brought them to tournaments. Do you know how many people had a problem with it? Zero. Absolutely none at all.

Heck I even got compliments from people saying how well I managed to get the feel of the ultramarines wrapped into the ruleset of the wolves (through use of banners, a command squad model with dual swords for MotW, etc)

I happen to like the ultramarine color scheme and the Greek feel to the models, yet I like the ruleset of the wolves. To you, I might be a tool, but to everyone else I played with I was a guy who liked a specific look of one army and the playstyle of another.

And exalt, labmouse

One man's tool is another man's...never mind.

I feel sorry for my poor Iron Hands, they a founding chapter with zero love recently. I have bought numerous extra iron Hand fine cast parts and other similar bionics from 3rd party stockists and not even the old bionics equipment upgrade still exists for characters.

Kaldor, I used to think that all people that played flavor of the month (or flavor of a couple of years ago-I play BA now) were tools, except for the fact that GW couldn't care less about some armies (*coughBTcough*), and since I suck at painting, unpainted gets me more money if I try and recover my investment

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
But if you just want to run your bare plastic marines as the flavour of the month, or you want to run your generic Ultramarine army as Space Wolves because the rules are better, then you're just a tool.

Kaldor, has it occurred to you that your in the minority opinion here?

As I mentioned earlier, I ran an Ultramarine army as Space Wolves for about 6 months at the end of 6th. I even brought them to tournaments. Do you know how many people had a problem with it? Zero. Absolutely none at all.

There's been polls on here about it before, it's hardly a minority opinion. Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

Either that, or absolutely none at all thought that way.

I have had an army of 3rd company Ultramarines since the latter days of 2nd edition. I am seriously pondering whether to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using the Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.

I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about, is innovation and imagination!

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

Either that, or absolutely none at all thought that way.

Possible, but I doubt it.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I have had an army of 3rd company Ultramarines since the latter days of 2nd edition. I fully intend to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.

I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about!

Absolutely, the rule of cool applies. Using Deathwing rules to represent a 1st Company army is very cool. Using Blood Angels to represent an Assault Company army is cool. Using Space Wolves to represent generic Marines because the rules are better is uncool, and should be frowned upon.

 Kaldor wrote:
There's been polls on here about it before, it's hardly a minority opinion. Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

If its not a minority, then it must be a very silent majority. You seem to be the only proponent of the 'no blue SW chapters here!' talking up in this thread.
Perhaps people were polite and did not say I was a tool to my face. Given that I live in New England, I doubt it -- people here are so blunt that being think-skinned is a necessity not a nicety.

Edit : Its also possible that your local area in Australia is a hell of a lot more uptight than the US. Its possible we are both speaking of what we normally see in the meta -- so I can't speak about what your city is like. I can assure you that we here in the states don't care about 'blue SW'. Were here to play toy soldiers with our friends.

Here is the thing -- I get what your saying about someone just using their unpainted models to be the latest, greatest codex. If the models are not WYSIWYG, or do they fit the criteria I can see your gripe. However, if someone makes their army WYSIWYG and fit, then whats the problem?

The Ultramarine as SW example is great example. Notice the banner in the back. I marked those in roman numerals to signify each squad, and these were my wolf banners. When I popped a banner, I would remove the banner from the squad. Notice the guy in front from the command set. He was a mark of the wolfen model. See how he is clearly different than the models behind him?
[url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/388431-.html][/url

 AegisGrimm wrote:
[ I am seriously pondering whether to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using the Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.

I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about, is innovation and imagination!

I think that is a fantastic idea, just for the record.

I think it's okay. Now i'm inspired if I ever want a space wolf army!

Tiger9gamer, the really cool thing is you can build that army for dirt cheap.

The terminators came from the AoBR set. The marines were mostly from AoBR. I also had some old marines from the 90s I threw in there.
I used two boxes of command squads to make the MoTW marines and some wolf guard. I added one librarian as the rune priest.

The entire project cost me about 100 bucks, and I was able to use it with my other ultramarines as normal squads if I wanted. I occasionally used the terminators with my ultramarine bike army in casual games. I also occasionally used a bike squad as swiftclaw bike squads. While there is not a 1 to 1 ratio of conversion, many of the units were interchangable.

sweet. Only thing is that I would rather support the manager from my local GW, so it would be a little more expensive for me X-X cool idea and worth a try!

The most important part of this thread is Labmouse's sig.

 labmouse42 wrote:
If its not a minority, then it must be a very silent majority.

Here's a poll I ran a while ago. I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority.

You seem to be the only proponent of the 'no blue SW chapters here!' talking up in this thread.

I'll freely admit this is more of an issue for me than the regular gamer. It really grinds my gears when people take models for X, and rules for Y when their only motivation is an in-game advantage. It takes away from the narrative aspect of the game for me. It's not an issue when you're doing it for a narrative reason. An Ultramarine 1st Company army using Deathwing rules, or an 8th Company army using Blood Angels rules, or a Thousand Sons army using Grey Knight rules for example.

To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

 Kaldor wrote:
I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

Let's see...

1) Wanting to try a different playstyle not really made possible with your "own" codex
2) Wanting to try a more competitive codex because your current one is ancient and you're tired of taking a beating because of it
3) Wanting to save money by not buying several marine armies when you can simply have one "expanded" army

To name a few of the more obvious ones.

 Kaldor wrote:

It takes away from the narrative aspect of the game

It does not in the least. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was at least moderately intended with the implimentation of the new allies rules. Once in a while now, I go ahead and take a blood angels ally so that I can have worthwile jump marines, and the option to buy fast tanks. I don't however paint my vindicator red.

Thats the best thing about loyalist marines over any other army. You can swap army books and not have to pay a stupidly pretty penny for a new army

Quoted for truth as the kiddies say.

Anyone who would actually gripe about your using marine models painted as one chapter to represent another chapter in order to utilize another army book is being a TFG in my never humble opinion. As long as your army is WYSIWYG compliant as far as troop types/weapons or represents a consistant and easy to keep up with "counts as" subitution, then your opponent really has no legitimate gripe. I suspect the mind set that would have an issue with that is motivated by elitism and what I call the "what do you mean you play it on oridnary paper!!111!!???" mentality.

The poll linked to by Kaldor is actually pretty meaningless as it only reflects the opinions of those in the fantasy world of the the 'net were we are sheilded by the diasconnect and anonymity. In the real world, I can garenteee you will find very, very few who would actually take you to task for using one chapter minitaures to represent another. As is the case with alot of issues, online you are going to get alot of whining, griping, wailing, and rending of garments about it. But in person, were you actually have to face social consequences for 4chan kiddie type trash talk, not so much. You might ocasionally encounter some mouth breathing morlock who would actualy be crass enough to gripe about such a thing, but as I point out above, they are typically your TFG types.

TR

Edit:
Oh yeah. I'm sure I represent a majority of folks here when I say that I would FAR rather play against the "Ultramarines/Space Wolves" pictured above than the usual tiresome parade of unpainted armies. I'm sure even kaldor would agree with that statement....

 Kaldor wrote:
Here's[/url] a poll I ran a while ago. I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority.

That poll is not relevant to what is being discussed here, codex hopping and the poll itself is clarified to be chasing power around armies, not as mouse has done taking a colour scheme he loves and using rules he likes to represent his army. Comparing it to the Eldar dressed up as an Ork is so far off base it's not even funny. The guy who shows up with his codex grey marines where the same models have imaginary CC weapons one week, imaginary jump packs the next I have issue with. New gamers who want to proxy are fine, it's an expensive hobby but even then i'll just leave them to play with people who are happy to play like that, no skin off my nose. Bandwagon chasing is a part of WAAC gaming and while I may never engage in it, it's still a valid way to play with your toy soldiers, good luck to em.

People who take the time to model and paint WYSIWYG models from other marine dexes I have zero issue with, no doubt it's a contributing factor to Marine popularity having that kind of versitility. I hate marines with a passion but even I can appreciate the care and modelling time someone like mouse has put in and respect that and would have no issue playing that army. Hell if I didn't despise the gene modded corpse worshippers I'd probably pick a single chapter and collect different detachments from the various books all painted in the same colours, especially in these times of allies. Those really fancy Mentor Legion Vanguard with power weapons and wrist bolters? Part of my BA detachment and using the Sanguinary Guard rules.

A marine is a marine is a marine as they say and if I can tell easily what they are from their bling and weapons we're good to play, that Ork will always be an Ork and will never convince me he's I5 with an Avenger Catapult...

So back to the OP, punished for using the basic marine dex? You get more updates, have a better supported range, more allies opportunity and more interchangability than any Xenos race out there. The undersupported Xenos races will shed no tears with their ancient models and dexes for the fact you have to ally to get your slightly cheaper versions of units and monsterous model range

Punished for playing marines indeed...

 Kaldor wrote:
To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

Alas, good sir, we are not all made of money.
'Nutting up' and playing space wolves would cost 200%+ times what it takes to mod off an existing army. I have kids and bills, so need to be as creative with my dollar as possible.

 Kaldor wrote:
I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority

That poll is about codex hopping. Not about using a 'counts as' army of one color to emulate another.
I think were talking apples vs oranges with that poll.

Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

Oh, the BT codex can work, but basically only in the form of Krak spam (Typhoons, CMLs), which really isn't much of a fun playstyle in the long run. So why should one just play only that (assuming one doesn't want to get tabled due to fielding something totally uncompetitive - and this coming from me, who very much dislikes having to optimize lists) and never ever try something else because GW can't be bothered to update the codex and then there's some arbitrary concept of "sticking with it"? Pfft. It'll remain my primary codex, but I won't limit myself to just that. Though after my latest purchases - still assembly needed however - most of my infantry models won't be shared between Templars and SM and thus the counts-as factor is lessened. SM gets the starter kit (of both AoBR and DV variety) one-posers for their troops, while BT actually gets upgraded and sometimes even painted crusaders Besides, SM has some nice units like the TFC that I want to get to try out. And Rifleman Dreads, something that's actually quite useful compared to trying to run an expense BT TLLC/ML Dread or a short-range Dread, the latter sadly being suicide. Now if only the Dread kits came with plastic autocannons... sigh.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

I don't like what happened to the Templars after the two latest FAQ's. I'm using them as Codex Space Marines until the next Black Templars codex come out. I've said as much many times.

Laugh all you want, but I have an army consisting of nearly 10,000 points worth of fully painted Black Templars, including a pair of Super Heavies for Apocalypse games. After playing them for 5 years, spending thousands of dollars and hundreds (if not thousands) of hours painting them, GW kicked my army in the square in the nuts. So, because I'm choosing to play them as Codex Space Marines, I'm some sort of pariah that should be shunned and scorned? Give me a fething break.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
In fact, I don't think any of the rules say you can;t take another Codexes marines as allies, and paint them as a special part of your army, either, like a "Black Templars" Storm Raven.

While I agree in theory with this position, in practice it would depend on the level of ally the other marines are and how easy it is to differentiate between the main force and the allies on the table top so that powers and abilities are not applied to incorrect units that can't benefit from them. This wouldn't be necessary if the marine chapter ally levels were all consistent, but they are not.

I have to admit to still not understanding the thought processes behind the allied table in the rulebook. It just makes zero sense to me that a Space Wolves force, no matter, the history between the primarchs would be happier allying with Tau than Dark Angels. It is just dumb to see things like that in the table. I can see some exceptions made to benefit some Xenos players to have more ally options, but the Imperial forces should all be pretty buddy, buddy at each level. Marines should be close allies, while marines and IG might be the next level down. Some stress between the grey knights, sisters and other factions would make a little sense and NO xenos should be seen as a better ally than any other imperial faction. Doesn't look like logic or balance really played a part and at times looks like they just threw darts at a board for each force and missed the board completely for 'nids. To be fair 'nids should at least be able to ally with themselves to give them access to the extra slots allies offer.

Skriker


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 AtariAssasin wrote:
The most important part of this thread is Labmouse's sig.

Have to admit to stopping and watching it mesmerized every time it comes up in the thread.

Skriker

Imo there is nothing wrong with wanting to win and therefore it is, at least for me, totaly acceptable to do some codexhopping if your old dex sucks ( especialy in the case of spessmuhreens who differ from each other primarily by the colour they use ).

 Kaldor wrote:
To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

The simplest and easiest reason: Because you want to. It is that simple. Someone may want to play Space Wolves, but hate that blue grey paint scheme and thus paint their minis different. It is that basic.

Just because you can't see a good reason doesn't mean such reasons don't exist. The various specific codex books play differently than each other and differently than the vanilla codex. Play style and army methods makes up a big part in what army one chooses to play. I mean if you want to play assault focused marines you won't pick the Dark Angels codex, but would pick the Blood Angels codex. Doesn't matter if you paint them red, green or blue as long as your opponent knows that you are using the Blood Angels codex and the army is built to it and run by its rules. For them it fits "their" narrative, and "their" desires, but would still offend your sensitivies for narratives because they aren't painted like blood angels. Given that GW itself clearly states that the chapter specific books can be used to represent a player's own chapter or pretty much whatever they want it to. So where exactly is the problem here? Obviously it is with your own expectations and wants from other players. Of course if you approach the game with those kinds of expectations that don't really take the opinions of the other players into account you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Of course we've had this discussion before in the thread about the player who wanted to paint his Space Wolves green...ultimately the issue with the "narrative" is yours and doesn't really require anyone else to change how they do things if they don't want to.

Skriker

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

I don't like what happened to the Templars after the two latest FAQ's. I'm using them as Codex Space Marines until the next Black Templars codex come out. I've said as much many times.

Laugh all you want, but I have an army consisting of nearly 10,000 points worth of fully painted Black Templars, including a pair of Super Heavies for Apocalypse games. After playing them for 5 years, spending thousands of dollars and hundreds (if not thousands) of hours painting them, GW kicked my army in the square in the nuts. So, because I'm choosing to play them as Codex Space Marines, I'm some sort of pariah that should be shunned and scorned? Give me a fething break.

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

Sorry AW, but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

Sorry AW, but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

Np, I can see where you're coming from.

Templar brofist?

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Did you guys read the first post in Kaldor's link? Because the poll is about what we're discussing.

That said, I don't particularly care if someone jumps Codex, but if the people who play "Templars" but can't get the Codex to work for them and thus play counts-as come back when/if we get a new Codex I'll never let them hear the end of it, only to spite them.

I don't like what happened to the Templars after the two latest FAQ's. I'm using them as Codex Space Marines until the next Black Templars codex come out. I've said as much many times.

Laugh all you want, but I have an army consisting of nearly 10,000 points worth of fully painted Black Templars, including a pair of Super Heavies for Apocalypse games. After playing them for 5 years, spending thousands of dollars and hundreds (if not thousands) of hours painting them, GW kicked my army in the square in the nuts. So, because I'm choosing to play them as Codex Space Marines, I'm some sort of pariah that should be shunned and scorned? Give me a fething break.

I can't help but to laugh, if I knew you personally, I think our group would force you to play your pretty boys as BT. Sorry but the irony of it is just to funny. GW and their antics.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Oh, I'm not going to shun or scorn anyone, I'll just be poking some harmless fun at people. If people don't like it I'll stop.

Sorry AW, but that just rubbed me the wrong way.

Np, I can see where you're coming from.

Templar brofist?

Bro fist.

 g0atsticks wrote:
I can't help but to laugh, if I knew you personally, I think our group would force you to play your pretty boys as BT. Sorry but the irony of it is just to funny. GW and their antics.

But who would want to play in such a group to begin with?

tvih wrote:

 g0atsticks wrote:
I can't help but to laugh, if I knew you personally, I think our group would force you to play your pretty boys as BT. Sorry but the irony of it is just to funny. GW and their antics.

But who would want to play in such a group to begin with?

It was just a joke, and you wouldn't be invited for your lack of humor. I said good day.

Yeah life is hard. It's too bad they don't really mind making people hop around after the power creep to buy new models

Combat tactics and knowing no fear are a great combo for tactical play off of your turn.

The special characters are a dumb kind of fun.

You have a cool flyer gunboat and special rules for drop pod assaults.

You have unique librarian load outs.

You've got amazing THSS units.

You've got great access to allies.

It's really a whole new game with allies in the picture. Counts as armies are where it's at. I feel like some people here are living in the past.

Too bad about your expensive devastators though.

 Lucre wrote:


Too bad about your expensive devastators though.

Meh, It's there as an option if its really needed to finish off a certain idea. I'm completely content not having them as cheaply as others given all the other fun things we can do.

 g0atsticks wrote:
It was just a joke, and you wouldn't be invited for your lack of humor. I said good day.

For me to have a lack of humor would first require you to have said something that's actually funny, though

Anyways, more BTs to assemble!

 AtariAssasin wrote:
So with the new Dark Angels coming out with some new really cool looking units, as well as a new codex, I feel like being a codex player is increasingly foolish. If you want to paint your own scheme, or choose from one of the very cool chapters that just doesn't have it's own codex, you'll be missing out on some very powerful units, and even if you don't care about how uber some units are, you're still missing out on some awesome looking models. Maybe its foolish to fell slighted every time a codex comes out, but I don't think my chapter will EVER get its own codex.

I am assuming that since GW encourages you to buy every model for everything ever, instead of filling out your own army, and most of the people at my FLGS tend to field whatever is new, this wont bother most people, but I don't have the cash to buy everything that comes out.

Sorry, guess I'm just venting, but am I the only one who feels this way?

Hey, you know what?

Try playing Sisters of Battle, who still are using second edition models and a turd with writing on it instead of a codex.

5th edition C:SM is still a powerful, competent codex. Nothing about that has changed.

I think SoBs got better in 6th personally.

I do agree about the models though. Their really outdated now. I would love plastic sisters, especially seraphim..

 labmouse42 wrote:
I think SoBs got better in 6th personally.

That's not saying much.

Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.

 Melissia wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I think SoBs got better in 6th personally.

That's not saying much.

Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.

I have a friend and all he plays are the SoBs. They stand their own fairly well, never seen him get completly crushed.

Are we really going to have an anecdotal evidence fight?

 Melissia wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I think SoBs got better in 6th personally.

That's not saying much.

Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.

That's why you bring allies.

SoB by themselves are bottom tier. While they have some great units (Seraphim, Celestine), they are missing a few pieces. Allies can push sisters up to a solid-mid teir.
They are certainly no Grey Knights/Daemons, but they are on par with CSM or BA.

 Kaldor wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.

Either that, or absolutely none at all thought that way.

Possible, but I doubt it.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I have had an army of 3rd company Ultramarines since the latter days of 2nd edition. I fully intend to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.

I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about!

Absolutely, the rule of cool applies. Using Deathwing rules to represent a 1st Company army is very cool. Using Blood Angels to represent an Assault Company army is cool. Using Space Wolves to represent generic Marines because the rules are better is uncool, and should be frowned upon.

i absolutely disagree. if you have the models and the codex and want to say your blue marines are red that is ABSOLUTELY fine with me and anyone who says different isn't worth playing with. if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.


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 Kaldor wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
If its not a minority, then it must be a very silent majority.

Here's a poll I ran a while ago. I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority.

You seem to be the only proponent of the 'no blue SW chapters here!' talking up in this thread.

I'll freely admit this is more of an issue for me than the regular gamer. It really grinds my gears when people take models for X, and rules for Y when their only motivation is an in-game advantage. It takes away from the narrative aspect of the game for me. It's not an issue when you're doing it for a narrative reason. An Ultramarine 1st Company army using Deathwing rules, or an 8th Company army using Blood Angels rules, or a Thousand Sons army using Grey Knight rules for example.

To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.

if your imagination is good enough to imagine static plastic dudes pew pewing at each other on a table then you should be fine with imagining that blue plastic dudes are actually a bluish grey.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I think SoBs got better in 6th personally.

That's not saying much.

Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.

That's why you bring allies.

SoB by themselves are bottom tier. While they have some great units (Seraphim, Celestine), they are missing a few pieces. Allies can push sisters up to a solid-mid teir.
They are certainly no Grey Knights/Daemons, but they are on par with [...] BA.

Ye...nooooooooooo.

Not even friggin' close....

 Alkasyn wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

davou wrote:
Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.

Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!

Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.

Says who? Some random purist on the Internet? There's nothing prohibiting a person from painting their army the way they like. GW actually encourages it. How can you tell there are surely no blue BA successor chapters? That's right, you can't.

BlackSanguinor wrote:
Blood Angels don't "gain" army wide FNP and Furious Charge instead of Combat Taactics, they have to pay for it.

To all the people thinking that BA have to pay for anything, I give you this exercise- build an army using any army builder, let's say 1500 points of whatever you fancy. Take the same units in a BA list, an SM list and an SW list. (where possible, so do take Tacticals in BA and Grey Hunters in SW, and if you wanted a 5 man Terminator squad take a SW Wolf Guard squad and equip it with the same items - I know that Power Fists/ Storm Bolters cost more on Wolf Guard than they do on Vanilla Terminators, but bear with me).

What you will see is the following:

- BA can take the exact same amount of units and models + enough Sanguinary Priests to actually get FNP on everyone. That's because they have cheaper units.
- Even when using overpriced units like that sucky setup on Wolf Guard, you still manage to have the same amount of units and models on Wolves as you on Vanilla marines - they make up those points on Long Fangs, for example. Again, cheaper units.
- In both armies You have extra options, like Counter Attack on most units and better special options for GH in SW, or FNP/Furious Charge, Better Jump packs, Assault troops in BA.
- You get that ALL on top of what C:SM already has. You only lose Combat Tactics. That's the only major loss for those 2 codici.
- You lose Thunderfire Cannons, Bike Captains, Masters of the Forge and Ironclad Dreads.
- You get a plethora of different, sometimes better, units. (Furioso Dreads, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, Assault Squads in Troops)

From a competitive point of view, there is little to no reason to play C;SM over any other SM variant. BA are the easiest choice for a disgruntled C:SM player, with SW requiring more customization and model work.

I wonder how will DA relate to C:SM. I think that if we can call BA the SM+ then DA will be SM++ - I heard a rumour that their Tacticals will cost 70 points for 5 men and a Sarge. If that's correct then they'd be 20 points cheaper than a similar Tac squad. You can get a Rhino for 35 points in the SM codex.

i think you should post some examples of this...

BA have more expensive tanks and terminators. what exactly is cheaper about BA compared to c:sm?

 Melissia wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I think SoBs got better in 6th personally.

That's not saying much.

Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.

That's why you bring allies.

SoB by themselves are bottom tier. While they have some great units (Seraphim, Celestine), they are missing a few pieces. Allies can push sisters up to a solid-mid teir.
They are certainly no Grey Knights/Daemons, but they are on par with [...] BA.

Ye...nooooooooooo.

Not even friggin' close....

You guys should check out how many major tournaments lately have sisters of battle in the armies and where they are placing. There are quite a few.

And yet, Blood Angels are still better with a stronger, far more varied codex.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I do agree about the models though. Their really outdated now. I would love plastic sisters, especially seraphim..

I actually like the look of their models. Seraphim, regular and special weapon Battle Sisters, the Canoness... but obviously the price is a real problem and the reason why I don't have any yet. I was about to pull the trigger on some when I had a chance to buy -30% off, but in the end the money went to SM/Orks/CSM instead since it was still more value for money (same discount on those too).

The style is very cool. Here are the problems with metal armies over plastic armies

- Every 4th model looks the same.
- Plastic versions have much more dynamic poses.
- Lack of customization options. Plastic kits make it much easier to customize the heck of your models.

If GW switch to plastic sisters, I would collected them in a heartbeat. The metal ones just are not worth it.

C:SM is just fine...

phoenixrisin wrote:
if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.

They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/498488.page#5148906

I hate to inform you that your incorrect opinions are not rules

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
Point me to one rule that says this is wrong or not allowed

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/498488.page#5148906

I hate to inform you that your incorrect opinions are not rules

Absolutely.

I never said it was illegal. I said it wasn't generally advisable. People shouldn't push the bounds of legal, but socially questionable activity without a good reason.

That's why I linked you back to that post, because I didn't want to have to explain this all over again. So much for that, I guess.

Anyone else want to talk about how marines could be good and relevent? I would love to hear it instead of hearing all this nonsense.

This is why I made my own chapter. That way nobody can give me any for saying they're codex marines because they're blue or some like that. At that point if I have the proper models no rule is being broken. The Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves codex's aren't they're to only make those army's. They're alot there to let people make their own space marines chapter and have them play how they want. As well as support successor from these chapters. I can see the problem if someone said these guys that are painted with the exact blood angel scheme and iconography are actually dark angels. But basic models shared across all the army's nobody should complain about these being swapped around unless there is a true model problem where something is not represented. All armys use tactical marines. If you want a fluffy reason why there's a squad of ultramarine with those blood angels its because they were in the area and they're helping out. Grey knights are another issue however. Theyre models are actually differant and id agree that they should not be swapped around. Personally I have a custom chapter that I use to represent the Codex Marines and Blood Angels. I always make sure my models match my rules however.

 Kaldor wrote:


And a yellow space wolf is not different in any way to an ork masquerading as an eldar.

Blood Angels:

Space Wolves:

Note how the two have identical proportions and only really differ in posing, bling, and hairstyle. Now for the other two.

Orks:

Eldar:

Note how the two have different proportions, wargear, and look nothing alike

Personally I think the Orks would look better with the mohawks.

What about reverse mohawks? Like a regular except you take away only the middle bit instead of leaving only the middle bit

Isn't a reverse Mohawk just balding?

Sort of, but not as much as a regular mohawk

Reverse Mohawk. Scary.

I don't feel like we who play C:SM are punished at all since we have unique stuff of our own. We have ironclad dreads, thunderfire cannons, and good librarions. At least with 6th if there is something cool from another marine codex, we can ally with them at battle brother status.

 TheAngrySquig wrote:


Blood Angels:

What's interesting about this picture is that the marines are from the basic tactical box (which the C: SM also use) so the models are identical to those fielded by Ultramarines, Imperial Fists etc players. Also interesting is that these marines are from the original version of this box released with 3rd edition, rather than representing the upgraded contents of the current tactical box.
Example 1001 of how GW can be cheapskates by using old models to sell new ones.

I do agree about the (sisters)models though. Their really outdated now. I would love plastic sisters, especially seraph

Why? Because they are "old"?
The are Perry Brothers sculpts. The Perry boys are among the best sculptors working in the wargaming industry and even their older works stands up well today. The certainly have much cleaner lines than today's over-done cluttered models.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the metal vs. plastic thing as I have always prefered metal miniatures. But then I do very little converting on my stuff, so that kills the primary advantage that plastics have.

They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.

Yet more elitism and "What do mean you play it on ordinary paper!!!???!!11" drek.
Happily that view is decidely in the minority...especially the real world.

TR

Whether they're Perry Brothers sculpts or not, they're clunky, heavy, restricted to a very limited number of poses, and $20 for three models. The primary advantage of plastics is poseability, convertability is a related side effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaldor wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:
if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.

They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.

The problem here is that despite the fact that the core units (Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Predators, Devastators, whatnot) are the same, there are certain unique 'special' units from each Codex that have distinct models. It's confusing to tell someone "Hey, I've got three squads of Assault Marines here, but I'm counting these ones as Death Company", the models don't look like Death Company, and it can lead to mixups, annoyance, and argument. Better to have the 'official' models for pick-up or tournament games; if you're playing with a regular opponent it's up to them, trying to put the burden of figuring out what you want each unit to represent on someone slows down pick-up games and ends up being annoying to everyone. So, elitist crap aside, Kaldor's got a point, he's just being overly-preachy about presenting it.

phoenixrisin wrote:


i think you should post some examples of this...

BA have more expensive tanks and terminators. what exactly is cheaper about BA compared to c:sm?

I suppose someone can argue that access to things like assault marines as troops is 'cheaper' becuase suddenly for the same points they can do something that vanilla marines cant; score.

But I stand by my oppinion that vanilla marines are fine, fun and in no great need for rework.... I'll gladly take a new codex at the expence of all your other fool's, but I'm not about to raise a rabble for it either.

 Kaldor wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:
if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.

They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.

surely you see how foolish this statement is...

it's the same model painted a different color.

example: A A = same LETTER different COLOR

example 2: A B = different LETTER different COLOR

/thread

 labmouse42 wrote:
The style is very cool. Here are the problems with metal armies over plastic armies

- Every 4th model looks the same.
- Plastic versions have much more dynamic poses.
- Lack of customization options. Plastic kits make it much easier to customize the heck of your models.

If GW switch to plastic sisters, I would collected them in a heartbeat. The metal ones just are not worth it.

Yeah the similarity is a fair point. It's the one thing I dislike about doing my plastic Templars at the moment. I want all my Crusaders to have tabards. Which leads to only three torso variations. Of course there are only minor variations in regular tac torsos, but hanging cloth always being the same is more of a standout. Still looks far better than a regular torso, though. But additionally there's only three different poses for BT bolt pistols and chainswords, one per each type of power weapon, etc. And I'm not that good at converting. Ah well, I'll make do I suppose, and definitely going to try to repose some legs as well.

Can't you afford new things?

EBAY! That, or...

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/warhammer-40k/space-marines/cat_39.html

This is a great site. I get most of my figures from here... It may cost much to ship over to Aus, but it's still less than my FLGS. Of course, I still support my FLGS, mostly on impulse buys and paints. And I advertise for them at school... So far, I have converted four wargamers to Warhammer 40K, and they get all of their stuff from the FLGS...

 Trench-Raider wrote:
Why? Because they are "old"?
The are Perry Brothers sculpts. The Perry boys are among the best sculptors working in the wargaming industry and even their older works stands up well today. The certainly have much cleaner lines than today's over-done cluttered models.

Because plastic seraphim would not be top-heavy. You would create much more dynamic poses with them.
As I stated, the feel of the sisters models is awesome. I wish they got the same sculpters to make a plastic line.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The problem here is that despite the fact that the core units (Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Predators, Devastators, whatnot) are the same, there are certain unique 'special' units from each Codex that have distinct models. It's confusing to tell someone "Hey, I've got three squads of Assault Marines here, but I'm counting these ones as Death Company", the models don't look like Death Company, and it can lead to mixups, annoyance, and argument. Better to have the 'official' models for pick-up or tournament games; if you're playing with a regular opponent it's up to them, trying to put the burden of figuring out what you want each unit to represent on someone slows down pick-up games and ends up being annoying to everyone. So, elitist crap aside, Kaldor's got a point, he's just being overly-preachy about presenting it.

What about is someone has, say 1000 dollars worth of ultramarines. They want to play using the new Dark Angles "DJ booth-speeder" What if they paint it up as a ultramarine "DJ booth-speeder"? How is that different than someone painting their marines purple and calling them successive chapters? The point is, if all the models are WYSIWYG and clearly defined, is there a problem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Legion of Flame wrote:
, I still support my FLGS, mostly on impulse buys and paints. And I advertise for them at school... So far, I have converted four wargamers to Warhammer 40K, and they get all of their stuff from the FLGS..

Your post reminded me of this at first, then I saw how you helped out the FLGS

Whether they're Perry Brothers sculpts or not, they're clunky, heavy,

Well, that shows we have different tastes. I like the heft of a metal miniature over the light weight plastic.

restricted to a very limited number of poses,

You should probably stay away from real wargaming and historical miniatures then as limited poses and/or very similar apearing models is very much the rule.

and $20 for three models

if you are paying that price, then you are doing it wrong. Only a chump pays full retail for GW models when you have Ebay and online discount retailers.

TR

 Trench-Raider wrote:
You should probably stay away from real wargaming and historical miniatures then as limited poses and/or very similar apearing models is very much the rule.

Real wargaming?

I assure you that one of the big problems if have with real wargames like flames of war is that the models are not very cool. Ill stick with my pretend wargaming.

Converting the models is my favourite thing in this hobby, but metal ones are just a pain to convert. That's why I'd prefer plastic sisters.

As for the actual topic, I'll have to admit that rumours on the new DA rules make me think that sticking with the vanilla dex is increasingly foolish. It is one thing that they get new and shiny superunits, but the seem to get cheaper basic stuff as well.

I've only seen a couple games of Flames of War. It was somewhat frightening.

It took the guys two hours deciding a historical battle to reenact. They had a large binder filled up with different scenarios are rules for each battle.

They would often reroll results just because that wasn't how the actual battle went down.

It was like watching two historians playing with army men and kept accidentally dropping dice.

A C:SM 10 man tactical squad with a PG/ML costs 180 points.
A DA tactical squad with a Veteran Sergeant, PG and ML costs 180 points.

What's the big difference?
Upon further analysis, I think for 'hoard MEQ' will still be best played as SW. The cheaper special weapons, adding Terminators to squads, and counter attack will keep those on top.

tvih wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I do agree about the models though. Their really outdated now. I would love plastic sisters, especially seraphim..

I actually like the look of their models. Seraphim, regular and special weapon Battle Sisters, the Canoness... but obviously the price is a real problem and the reason why I don't have any yet. I was about to pull the trigger on some when I had a chance to buy -30% off, but in the end the money went to SM/Orks/CSM instead since it was still more value for money (same discount on those too).

I built a full sisters force when I bought the Witchhunters codex. The seraphim are great figs, and other models in the line are pretty nice too, but the thing that bugged me is what bugs me with most of the all metal lines that still remain: The primary basic models in units all look too much alike. There is little to no variation and the poses are such that converting them isn't really that easy either. I got bored with the figs. Sadly the sisters are in that "they don't get a new codex or minis because they aren't popular, but their popularity will not change if they don't get a new codex and minis" Catch-22 that passes for logic in GW land. They got a facelift codexwise with the Witchhunters and a few new mini types added in, but the basic sisters figs didn't change at all...if they had released some sisters plastics then it might have made a bigger impact with the witchhunters book. Instead it just kind of flopped...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trench-Raider wrote:
You should probably stay away from real wargaming and historical miniatures then as limited poses and/or very similar appearing models is very much the rule.

This depends wholly on scale, period and manufacturer and, most importantly, age of the line. Plenty of old mini lines for historical gaming are full of unit builder minis that are all exactly the same and look hardly interesting on the table top. Newer lines just don't work that way anymore. Variety is what people like now and even small differences are scattered throughout minis for a single unit. Sure there are still unit builder options. I played colonials and darkest Africa games for years and minis for them from Foundry, Copplestone Castings and the Perry Brothers were many and varied. Even a pack of tribal spearmen from Foundry usually contained 6-8 figures that were different from each other. Even in 15mm, now, varied poses are becoming much more popular among gamers and lead to multi-figure stands that aren't just a bunch of the same mini standing next to each other. Heck the new 15mm plastic US Airborne and German Grenadiers in Battlefront's new flames of war starter box are amazingly varied on the sprues.

One of the things that made the citadel line so amazing in its infancy was the massive breadth and variety of figures available for every army in Warhammer and Rogue Trader. You could build up 3 units of beastmen, say, in Warhammer 3rd edition each with 20 models and not have to use the same figure ever. Then they moved away from that and for a while the minis became very static and the model options very limited. Even the early plastics were riddled with static poses and those units of the original Empire halberdiers just looked terrible with all of those identical minis in them. This has finally started to improve again with the addition of the multi-pose plastics kits. Units within the same army can once again look unique and different from each other, even if made from the same plastic kit. The plastic kits are easy to combine across a given line and even between some lines to offer even more options. Unfortunately, the sisters are still stuck in that limited variety place. I like the sisters, but they can definitely do with a mini-line upgrade to bring them into the world of variety and interest that the other lines have gotten back now.

It ultimately doesn't matter if non-GW minis in historical games are exactly identical to each other across the board, which even they are not, but within the context of GW gaming variety and flexability of appearance are present in pretty much every force *except* sisters. Therefore they stick out because of that and should be brought up to snuff.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I've only seen a couple games of Flames of War. It was somewhat frightening.

It took the guys two hours deciding a historical battle to reenact. They had a large binder filled up with different scenarios are rules for each battle.

They would often reroll results just because that wasn't how the actual battle went down.

It was like watching two historians playing with army men and kept accidentally dropping dice.

This is just stupid. Flames of War is one of the most well written and easy to play mini games on the market today. The standard mission selection system is a simple roll of 1 6 sided die to get which of the 2 tables you roll another d6 on. Each mission has its own page with all the details you need that allows immediate setup to begin and tells you all of the victory conditions and where to place objectives, who goes first, and any special rules invovled in the battle (like prepared positions, reserves, etc). It is simple to determine, well defined for setup and the game start only takes as long as it takes for both sides to setup their forces.

You very obviously were watching something other than just a couple games of Flames of war, but instead two people who for some reason had built up their entire own historical campaign book and rules and were only using Flames of War for their rules. That large binder is not a Flames of War accessory, but sounds more like their own creation. Also cannot understand the point of bothering to play an historically based battle in the first place if you are just going to *force* the original outcome to happen anyway. Just seems completely pointless to me. For me historical battle replays are to see if you can do it better than the original winner, or succeed where the original battle loser failed.

You definitely need to watch someone playing Flames of War without the added baggage that these two felt the need to pile on top of it, because you would get a much different feel and opinion of the game. Flames of War is so good that I play it much more often than 40k these days. It is just nice to play a game with well written rules, that were actually *improved* when the latest edition of the game came out, and those rules that worked well were not changed in the process either.

Skriker

 Kaldor wrote:

phoenixrisin wrote:
if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.

They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.

You're gonna argue this to the death, no matter how stupid you continue to look, aren't you?


Heck, even once you provided the link, you weren't in the "majority" you originally claimed to be in.


Should have taken my original advice, which was not to try and pass off your opinion as fact. I'm ludicrously smart. It's a good idea to listen to my advice and wisdom.

Legion of Flame wrote:
Can't you afford new things?

EBAY!

Sadly, not even E-Bay makes Sisters affordable.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm ludicrously smart. It's a good idea to listen to my advice and wisdom.

Seriously? Did you actually type that? At some point the real world is going to whack you upside the head with a dose of humility. Hopefully you're smart enough to learn the lesson when that occurs.


As far as using one painted army to represent another, I haven't a huge problem with it, but generally prefer you try to represent your army appropriately if possible. If your army is painted as BT, then they're BT or Codex: Space Marines. Dark Angels are DA or Codex: Space Marines. I never have an issue with reverting back to the basic codex, at the least.

Proxying into a chapter-specific codex is fine in limited doses, but I would think that if you find yourself consistently playing another chapter than that you have collected", you start collecting new models to paint appropriately. I'd never tell someone else to do so of course, and would happily play against someone with red Space Wolves as long as they were clear in what they were doing (Not "Blood Angels" suddenly dropping a Long Fang squad and telling me only at that point). It's my own personal preference.

I do have an army of Black Templars, and rarely play them as Codex: Space Marines in order to use my BT Librarians. I also occasionally run a scout army using Codex: Space Marines with BT neophytes and drop pods, as well as some bolter and sniper scouts specifically for the scout force. So it's not like I'm pure as the driven snow.

Darrett wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm ludicrously smart. It's a good idea to listen to my advice and wisdom.

Seriously? Did you actually type that?.

You must be new to the Internet. Hope you enjoy your stay.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Darrett wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm ludicrously smart. It's a good idea to listen to my advice and wisdom.

Seriously? Did you actually type that?.

You must be new to the Internet. Hope you enjoy your stay.

Sorry. Using "It's the internet" as an excuse for poor behavior doesn't fly with me. I think someone once said something about lemmings and a cliff.

Darrett wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Darrett wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
I'm ludicrously smart. It's a good idea to listen to my advice and wisdom.

Seriously? Did you actually type that?.

You must be new to the Internet. Hope you enjoy your stay.

Sorry. Using "It's the internet" as an excuse for poor behavior doesn't fly with me. I think someone once said something about lemmings and a cliff.

You're obviously confused about the use hyperbole, sarcasm and derision if you think I'm not intentionally crafting that sentence for effect.

Like I said, welcome to the Internet. Sorry if it's a bit too complicated for you. There's the Internet whacking you upside the head with a bit of reality, son.

And, like another extremely wise man once said, "Lighten up Francis."


Though, to be fair, I am ludicrously smart. It may be arrogant to say, but it's the truth.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

You're obviously confused about the use hyperbole, sarcasm and derision if you think I'm not intentionally crafting that sentence for effect.

Like I said, welcome to the Internet. Sorry if it's a bit too complicated for you. There's the Internet whacking you upside the head with a bit of reality, son.

And, like another extremely wise man once said, "Lighten up Francis."


Though, to be fair, I am ludicrously smart. It may be arrogant to say, but it's the truth.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Rule 1, for your reference. You're unnecessarily behaving rudely to Kaldor, and then have compounded that. I know you believe that because this is prevalent on the internet, it's an excuse to bring it into this discussion, but that isn't the case.

I know that often times tempers flare and you get caught in a spiral of posting that leads you to believe that unless you reply to another person with the same level of rudeness or force, it appears to the outside observer that you're losing the argument, it's not the case. I used to have the same thing occur from time to time when I was younger. That was about the same time I actually thought things like being "smart" was a quantifiable quality such as an IQ score, rather than being far more nuanced and relatively immaterial. Just something to keep in mind; it may or may not apply in your case.

Unnecessarily?

I guess we'll have to disagree there. I simply suggested that he could have saved himself several pages of embarrassment if he'd listened to me when I offered him advice the first time. If I phrased it in a self-aggrandizing manner, you are free to consider me an arrogant jerk (you won't be the first and it won't hurt my feelings if you do). However, it isn't rude to him in any way. The fact remains that I gave him the correct advice several pages ago.


There's no temper here. I'm not mad. His poor choice is my amusement. Please stop trying to explain the Internet to me. I've been around for a while and I probably know it better than you do.

Please get in the line of VS haters. I like my Internets with some fun. Sometimes my sense of humor doesn't mesh for those who take themselves and the world overly seriously.

Next post in this thread that doesn't have to do with the original topic earns the poster a vacation. Only warning.

Wow, I had to go back more than two pages to find a post not OT.

I think people who find the SM codex to be a punishment miss the point.

BA? Assault troops, blender 'naughts, and fast goodies... but SM can get awful close using Shrike and MotF or the like... as good? No, but really very very close

GK? Broken 2+ big Monster Cheese fest.... but a solid CF/IF Sternguard force can do similar things in similar ways (special ammos, heavy terminators, deep striking, etc).

SW? Razor GH spam with LF split firing... a little tougher to approximate, but you can use scoring Sternguard, or Vulkan pods, plus combat squad some heavies to let them split fire. SM have better dreads and cheaper TH/SS. As good? No, but can play the same game the same way and compete

DA? Yeah, Wings, I get it... but wings, meet 400 point TH/SS squads, better flier, White Scar tactics, scout bikes etc. Even old and dusty, the SM codex can approximate fairly well.

BT? NM, Already better

And that's just mimicking the gimmicks. SM can do their own little tricks and pull their own weight just fine. I'm 100% truthful in saying that I hope the SM codex doesn't get touched for awhile (doesn't need it, others certainly do). Other than missing SF on the Dev squads and a Vanguard overhaul there's not much the SM codex is needing right now. For anyone figuring out the game, or loving the blending of all the specialist codices, SM are fine. If you want flexible, jack of all trades, PA and forgiving... head to Codex Space Marines.

To respond to the original topic:

If you want the benefits of the Dark Angel codex for your homebrewed Chapter, rather then the C:SM (if you think it's too out of date), there is absolutely nothing stopping a Chapter named the "Scions of Calyon" from functioning just like the Ravenwing or Deathwing. A White Scars strike force would do especially well using the DA codex over the Vanilla one.

If you really like the options that are C:SM only, use the allies rules to include them. Either play your force as a Crusading force (made of several Chapters working in concert) or paint them as your Chapter and explain to your opponent as much before the game, so they aren't surprised. It's not nearly as odd as Eldar alongside Space marines.

 Kaldor wrote:

Our models are counters or markers used to provide physical representations of the rules. Each type of counter represents a certain type of rules. Taking a type of counter associated with a specific type of rule, and using it with different rules is crass, and generally inadvisable. This doesn't change, no matter if you're swapping Orks for Eldar, Grots for Terminators for Ultramarines for Blood Angels.

I'm at the moment building a new squad of bolter armed marines. They've parts from SM Command Squad, SM Tactical Squad, Death Company and Greyhunters kits. For what are these models appropriate markers for?

 Lobukia wrote:
SM can do their own little tricks and pull their own weight just fine.

C:SM can still put together some nice shooty lists, and they got better in 6th.

They get dakka predators cheaper than any other codex. 85 points for an AC with dual HB sponsons is a steal in today's meta.

They get the storm talon, which is actually not half bad for flyers. It's not as good as the vendetta, but hey what is?

They get some really strong powers, like Null Zone. This is a game-changing power when your facing armies like dameons that rely upon invuln saves. Fateweaver dies very quickly when he only has a 3++ save.

Being able to combat squad out of rhinos is actually quite nice. While TACs are still the weakest units in the codex IMHO, that helps them.

They still get the land speeder storm which can be used for late game contesting. Its not as good as it was, but it still can be used for that role well.

They get cheap TH/SS termies. 5-10 termies chilling out is a real big deturrent for assaulting C:SM.

Look how the newer codex's do not get artificer armor as an option for characters. Being able to take it on any character is a nice advantage.

So your not punished for using C:SM. It has a specific flavor.

Basically previous post had it right, they dont get the shiny toys and uniqueness of the super-special-marines, but C:SM is the jack of all trades SM force. Feel like a bike list today? Go for it. Drop pod sterns? Why the hell not. Gunline the day after? Fill your boots. It lacks in specific "shticks", makes up for it in play style choices.

It also still has the best in sternguards.

 Lobukia wrote:
Wow, I had to go back more than two pages to find a post not OT.

Entirely untrue. My posts were on topic.

Comparing Space Marines to non-Space Marines is perfectly valid

A while back when I did my "rank the codices" thread, I ranked C:SM up high, and for good reason. Codex: Space Marines is book that allows for a wide variety of very competent armies, and it only got better in the new edition. I may not particularly care for the lore of the book, but gameplay wise? C:SM is the model off which all other codices are compared to.

And almost all of them fall short.

I just go count as if I like a new flavor of Marine Codex, they all wear power armor..who cares. I play chaos space marines and regularly use the SW, BA, SM, and DA codex rules. If you like a power armor codex just paint your own scheme of armor and say your army is using those rules.

 Spartan089 wrote:
I just go count as if I like a new flavor of Marine Codex, they all wear power armor..who cares. I play chaos space marines and regularly use the SW, BA, SM, and DA codex rules. If you like a power armor codex just paint your own scheme of armor and say your army is using those rules.

You have very lenient friends. That wouldnt fly in my group. I guess if the group/opponent allows it... I've kept quiet during this whole thread but a codex flavor of the week is down right stupid and not how they are intended to be played.

As far as C:SM, I think the dex has many good avenues to try. Its by far one of the most flexible dexs in the entire game and thats by design.

If you have a DIY chapter, or even a main chapter, I don't see problems with using multiple codexes as long as all wargear is properly represented and units don't end up doing "double duty" for different unit entries across books.

 funkyh wrote:
You have very lenient friends. That wouldnt fly in my group. I guess if the group/opponent allows it... I've kept quiet during this whole thread but a codex flavor of the week is down right stupid and not how they are intended to be played.

The only way the game was meant to be played is with models purchase from Games Workshop.

 Melissia wrote:

 funkyh wrote:
You have very lenient friends. That wouldnt fly in my group. I guess if the group/opponent allows it... I've kept quiet during this whole thread but a codex flavor of the week is down right stupid and not how they are intended to be played.

The only way the game was meant to be played is with models purchase from Games Workshop.

And painted like a rainbow so you can use whichever codex you'd like? Sorry, I read a lot of fluff before I got into this hobby and I found an army that I liked. Yes I changed from a 1st founding to a secondary founding but still the same dex. I know you are poking fun but I wish some people would take pride in their chapter. A buddy of mine plays white scars. He doesn't have dreads or devs because of Fluff. I tried to follow the fluff for my Flesh tearers by only having 1 baal for the entire army. My buddy that plays scars isn't going to jump on the new DA dex just because they have cool rules for bikes and speeders, Scars and DA don't get along in fluff and he doesn't like them. I guess my meta is fluff and others have a skittles meta. As long as you guys are having fun, great.

-Signed a disgruntled and prideful fluff player

P.S. I like the look of scars more than ravenwing bikers. Besides Wards botchery of the fluff, the C:SM book is a great book to play out of. Someone earlier said reverting back to C:SM is okay and I agree. Power armor is power armor... But a blood angel isn't a space wolf isn't a grey knight and so on...

(@melissia, I enjoyed your thread on the ranking of the dexes. A long 1 be it, but good nonetheless.)

I think many people change from vanilla dex exactly because the care about fluff. White Scars are an exellent example. Codex SM does not allow them to get veterans on bikes, something that a heavily bike based chapter certainly should have, nor are their bikers expert riders, which fluff pretty much says that White Scars are. So why not use rules for Ravenwing to represent White Scars? You get more fluff adherent army that way, not less.

 Crimson wrote:
I think many people change from vanilla dex exactly because the care about fluff. White Scars are an exellent example. Codex SM does not allow them to get veterans on bikes, something that a heavily bike based chapter certainly should have, nor are their bikers expert riders, which fluff pretty much says that White Scars are. So why not use rules for Ravenwing to represent White Scars? You get more fluff adherent army that way, not less.

Typically enough, this is what the people I know that played mono-god armies for CSM do around here, they haven't actually gone to the new book at all. Our khorne players took a look over the CSM book and kept using BA and SW.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think many people change from vanilla dex exactly because the care about fluff. White Scars are an exellent example. Codex SM does not allow them to get veterans on bikes, something that a heavily bike based chapter certainly should have, nor are their bikers expert riders, which fluff pretty much says that White Scars are. So why not use rules for Ravenwing to represent White Scars? You get more fluff adherent army that way, not less.

Typically enough, this is what the people I know that played mono-god armies for CSM do around here, they haven't actually gone to the new book at all. Our khorne players took a look over the CSM book and kept using BA and SW.

Weirdly this now makes me want to see a mix of the helldrake and stormturkey. just for...reasons. And science.

 funkyh wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 funkyh wrote:
You have very lenient friends. That wouldnt fly in my group. I guess if the group/opponent allows it... I've kept quiet during this whole thread but a codex flavor of the week is down right stupid and not how they are intended to be played.

The only way the game was meant to be played is with models purchase from Games Workshop.

And painted like a rainbow so you can use whichever codex you'd like? Sorry, I read a lot of fluff before I got into this hobby and I found an army that I liked. Yes I changed from a 1st founding to a secondary founding but still the same dex. I know you are poking fun but I wish some people would take pride in their chapter. A buddy of mine plays white scars. He doesn't have dreads or devs because of Fluff. I tried to follow the fluff for my Flesh tearers by only having 1 baal for the entire army. My buddy that plays scars isn't going to jump on the new DA dex just because they have cool rules for bikes and speeders, Scars and DA don't get along in fluff and he doesn't like them. I guess my meta is fluff and others have a skittles meta. As long as you guys are having fun, great.

-Signed a disgruntled and prideful fluff player

P.S. I like the look of scars more than ravenwing bikers. Besides Wards botchery of the fluff, the C:SM book is a great book to play out of. Someone earlier said reverting back to C:SM is okay and I agree. Power armor is power armor... But a blood angel isn't a space wolf isn't a grey knight and so on...

(@melissia, I enjoyed your thread on the ranking of the dexes. A long 1 be it, but good nonetheless.)

I take pride in my army, I just feel its stupid that the most technologically savvy legion of traiotr marines can't figure out how use a damn razorback or use storm bolters, makes no sense. And my army is not rainbow colored, as long as my models are painted to a good degree and all properly modeled why should it matter. Matter of fact I fully tend to build a few new chaos bikers and run the new raven wing list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
I think many people change from vanilla dex exactly because the care about fluff. White Scars are an exellent example. Codex SM does not allow them to get veterans on bikes, something that a heavily bike based chapter certainly should have, nor are their bikers expert riders, which fluff pretty much says that White Scars are. So why not use rules for Ravenwing to represent White Scars? You get more fluff adherent army that way, not less.

Typically enough, this is what the people I know that played mono-god armies for CSM do around here, they haven't actually gone to the new book at all. Our khorne players took a look over the CSM book and kept using BA and SW.

This what I'm talking about, when BA can wreck more in cqc than psycho Khornate marines you got a problem. I had an opponent who was playing Thousand Sons using the GK codex, I had no problem with this, at least his models looked better than most of the actually GK players.

To the OP...

I dont view the SM dex as weakened or watered down, or indeed himped with missing all the new shinies...stormtalons are default dex only as I recall?

I am a long time IG player, I have dabbled with BA and my first army ever was DA, however my most recent project which is just only getting underway is a red scorpions army which is codex default.

Admittedly it will be a forge world converted army however it will use the SM rules. Now it may not be the best list out, but I will be putting in lots of nice fluffy stuff whihc are not available elsewhere, certainly not in the big sm names such as wolves, BA or DA and certainly not GK.

I will have access to multiple bikes, landspeeders, stormtalons, cheap TH/SS termies, and I wont have to have hooded monks (how can the DA knights even see their opponents?), blood thirsty vampire marines, or manga marines (GK).

Like any army choice, its a choice. There will be other cool funky stuff that other armies can use, and thats why the latest edition gave us the wonderful allies option. I genuinely believe the allies thing is a great addition once you remove the ott power gamers. It lets you add the new shinies if you absolutely must have them, or remain true to fluff form if you want a purist list.

If you feel punished for using Codex Marines, try using Codex Tau Empire, you'll be begging to have your Codex Marines back.

As for the other debate going on here, if you want to use your Marines as BT, SW, DA, BA or whatever, knock yourself out. I like the idea of using Ravenwing as White Scars or BA as Raven Guard, they make sense from a fluff point of view.

I'm less keen on using Ultramarines with the SW rules, as to me, Ultramarines are the poster boy for strict adherence to the Codex Astartes, and that's what the Vanilla SM 'dex represents. (Though I could see using the Macragge type situation)

I also don't like the idea of using SW or BA rules for CSM's, just because they are a different race. I wouldn't like using Dark Eldar to represent Craftworld Eldar either.

Of course to my mind the last two paragraphs really only matter in Tourney environments, in casual or pick-up games, ignore it.

That's my perspective as someone who's primary two armies would be Tau and Salamanders, if i hadn't sold off my models back in late 4th/early 5th. I intend to restart both, and maybe a small force of Thousand Sons also.

Also, does anyone have 12 spare Crisis Suit boxes and a pile of rare earth magnets that they would like to send me?

 funkyh wrote:
And painted like a rainbow so you can use whichever codex you'd like?

Games Workshop does not care what you paint your models as, as long as you paint your models using Games Workshop approved paints.

 Melissia wrote:

 funkyh wrote:
And painted like a rainbow so you can use whichever codex you'd like?

Games Workshop does not care what you paint your models as, as long as you paint your models using Games Workshop approved paints.

And if you use all the GW paints, its either a rainbow or a really nasty poopy color. But Its a new chapter to run under C:SM

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm less keen on using Ultramarines with the SW rules, as to me, Ultramarines are the poster boy for strict adherence to the Codex Astartes

When you think about it, it actually makes perfect sense. People seem to confuse the Codex Astartes a lot. What Leman Russ was railing against was cutting his Legion down to a chapter, and reorganizing it in a company structure. Being "Codex Adherent" just means you organize your Chapter into ten companies of 100 Marines, and use the guidelines for training and recruitment the Codex prescribes. It really has nothing to do with how a tabletop army would be selected.

On the other hand, the battle tactics of the Codex Astartes were originally, before Graham McNeill got his grubby hands on them, supposed to be incredibly flexible and genius. Using Codex: Space Wolves could work for Ultramarines (aside from maybe TWC) just to show an Ultramarines commander adjusting his strategy for a given situation. Maybe the Tactical Squads are equipping two special weapons instead of a special and a heavy because of terrain dictating a closer range fight. Suddenly the Grey Hunters are just a Tactical Squad. A Long Fangs squad is a Devastator combat squad. Etc.

Obviously codex hopping is never going to be 100% fluff compliant because each codex has a theme or trope designed to make it different from the others. But there are very few combinations that just plain don't work. Blood Angels and Space Wolves work just perfectly for people trying to run a less Chaos, more renegade Chaos Marines army.

Insert standard Games Workshop rant here. I love their miniatures and the settings they've created for their games, but I dislike their pricing, business practices, and rules. As someone's who's played their games since 1995, I feel that the former conditions have improved over time, while the latter have worsened, and I believe it's going to cost them their leading position in the miniatures market before too long.

Whenever I make my 1st Company army (in TDA) it's going to be a Deathwing army. My 6th Company will probably be a Ravenwing army, too. Then again, I might just run with a Vanilla Marine one. Less wings that way.

Kind of Hard to do a Sternguard/Vanguard list, since Tactical Marines make poor replacements for Sternguard or Vanguards.

But, I think Vanilla Marines are fine. Don't have any of the neat toys, but the best way to beat TDA is still a Demolisher Cannon and Null Zone, so...

(Give him first turn + reserve your Vindicators = Happy Fun time)

Crazyterran wrote:
Whenever I make my 1st Company army (in TDA) it's going to be a Deathwing army. My 6th Company will probably be a Ravenwing army, too. Then again, I might just run with a Vanilla Marine one. Less wings that way.

Kind of Hard to do a Sternguard/Vanguard list, since Tactical Marines make poor replacements for Sternguard or Vanguards.

But, I think Vanilla Marines are fine. Don't have any of the neat toys, but the best way to beat TDA is still a Demolisher Cannon and Null Zone, so...

(Give him first turn + reserve your Vindicators = Happy Fun time)

Just do it like any other fluffy vet list: Pedro, sternies and 2x scout units?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Obviously codex hopping is never going to be 100% fluff compliant because each codex has a theme or trope designed to make it different from the others. But there are very few combinations that just plain don't work. Blood Angels and Space Wolves work just perfectly for people trying to run a less Chaos, more renegade Chaos Marines army.

Honestly, they're all Marines to me, so I don't particularly care that much what color they're painted...

Now, if the player adds a hand-made cloak to their captain, and adds sheathed longswords to their grey hunters or something? That's much more interesting than what color the puppies are painted.

I wouldn't care if they're space wolf models or not if they went through that kind of effort.

 funkyh wrote:
You have very lenient friends. That wouldnt fly in my group. I guess if the group/opponent allows it... I've kept quiet during this whole thread but a codex flavor of the week is down right stupid and not how they are intended to be played.

How is it *stupid* specifically. You may not like it, but that doesn't equate to stupidity. When I sit down at a game all that matters to me is that my opponent's models are armed/equipped correctly for identification and what codex their list is out of. Beyond that it just doesn't matter. The marines can be hot pink and I don't care if they are using the BA, SW, BT, DA or CSM or C:SM codex AS LONG AS they are following the rules and list specifically for the codex they are using. This goes to the other extreme as well that isn't just using the basic models and painting them differently, but someone who came up with a different idea for their "chaos marines" and are using the space wolves codex for them and have converted up things like chaos marines on the backs of massive mutated chaos hounds that count as thunderwolf cavalry.

What is intended beyond a codex other than it providing the rules to create and use your army on the table? There isn't some magic requirement that the space wolf codex is only intended to ONLY EVER represent space wolf armies painted wolf grey and using specific space wolf minis with all the fancy wolf pelts and other accoutrements. That is an expectation you put on the book yourself. In fact GW's position has long been to use any marine codex that you feel best represents *your* chapter. I am sure in GW's perfect world any time someone plays a different marine codex they would *definitely* buy a completely new army, but in the real world having 5+ space marine armies all complete, but painted in different colors to be able to use each codex separately is wasteful, foolish and is where the stupidity really comes in.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 funkyh wrote:
A buddy of mine plays white scars. He doesn't have dreads or devs because of Fluff. I tried to follow the fluff for my Flesh tearers by only having 1 baal for the entire army. My buddy that plays scars isn't going to jump on the new DA dex just because they have cool rules for bikes and speeders, Scars and DA don't get along in fluff and he doesn't like them. I guess my meta is fluff and others have a skittles meta. As long as you guys are having fun, great.

Bully to you for building your force based on the fluff. I build story driven armies all the time, BUT that isn't the only way to build armies.

Also I have to say that is really amusing that you think people using whatever codex they want to represent their marines are being stupid, but you pat your buddy on the back for using *in game* fluff reasons for not making a useful *out of game* decision to use the new DA codex because it has decent rules for bike and speeder focused forces. *That* is foolishly self limiting in my book. What does he think if he makes a White Scars list using the DA book he is somehow being a traitor to the White Scars?

Skriker

Last I checked I was still entitled to my opinion right? I think that not having a direction for your army is silly and even stupid. Having a swiss army knife of an army lacks a direction and uses any and all marine dex seems pointless to me. I'd be fine for it being a C:SM but having it switch from BA SW GK CSM BT or DA from day to day is silly... Yes it would be more interesting to play but personally, I'd forget half the rules and it wouldn't be fun for me or my opponent. It was tough for me to try to play my 1k sons for the first time w/ all the psychic powers and what not. I was using the words stupid and silly because thats how it is in my meta.

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean everyone else isn't allowed to dispute it.

Go play Codex: BT and you will learn the true meaning of punishment.

 funkyh wrote:
Last I checked I was still entitled to my opinion right? I think that not having a direction for your army is silly and even stupid. Having a swiss army knife of an army lacks a direction and uses any and all marine dex seems pointless to me. I'd be fine for it being a C:SM but having it switch from BA SW GK CSM BT or DA from day to day is silly... Yes it would be more interesting to play but personally, I'd forget half the rules and it wouldn't be fun for me or my opponent. It was tough for me to try to play my 1k sons for the first time w/ all the psychic powers and what not. I was using the words stupid and silly because thats how it is in my meta.

Everyone can have an opinion. Sadly yours isn't particularly convincing and you fail to give any arguments why it should be.

Stupid has its own scale and is up for argument. I know people who think that this hobby we all share is stupid due to the cost and they are just plastic toys. I think buying all the codexes to fill a whim to play all the marines is stupid.. I fear this has gotten off topic and should be moved to another topic...

OT: Codex Space Marines is the most flexible of all the codices and it opens enough doors to find what niche of other armies you'd like to try. If you like the assault troops, play BA. If you like cheese and psykers, play GK. If you likes bikes speeders and termies play DA. I apologize if I rubbed anyone wrong for how my opinions, meta, and personal choices to play fluffy have upset you all...

 BryllCream wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[
You also miss out on Combat Tactics, all the Special Characters, Thunderfire Cannons, cheap TH/SS Terminators and Masters of the Forge.

They lose Combat Tactics and gain army-wide FNP and Furious Charge - a clear gain.

The SM charectors are alright, but Blood Angels get a MC (Strength 10 and jump pack) with an infantry profile. Not so bad in 6th but in 5th was a major headache for many armies.

Thunderfire cannons - yeah, BA lose out on them. Meh.

Cheap TH/SS Terminators - vanilla marines get these? BA terminators get Feel No Pain, Furious Charge and a 1/6 chance of +1 attack.

Master of the Forge - man if I had a penny for every time I heard a BA player say "I wish I could take a master of the forge"...


BA aren't particularly over-powered in 6th, in fact they will blow away like a fart in the wind. But they are definitely Space Marines++

Trading a massively improved Combat Tactics for a chance to spread around the nerfed Furious Charge and Feel No Pain is not an upgrade.

Mephiston is kind of a joke in 6th now that he can't touch anyone with a 2+ save.

Thunderfire cannons are one of the hidden gems of the Space Marine Codex, especially with the meta shifting from light mech to masses of infantry.

Feel No Pain and Furious Charge both got nerfed and Blood Angels have a1/6 chance at trading And They Shall Know No Fear (which also got a lot better) for Fearless (which is a downgrade) and Furious Charge (which doesn't matter when you're using a Thunder Hammer). They also don't have access to Null Zone, one of the best psychic powers in the game.

Losing out on the Master of the Forge is a "meh" since Blood Angels can take Furiosos as Elites and Rifleman dreads as Heavies anyway, though Conversion Beamers are still amazing in the right situation.

All in all, Blood Angels got screwed by the new rules and I tend to think (having actually played the army, and having fielded them using the Codex:SM rules) that they're a side grade at best and are in most cases worse than Codex Marines.

So I discovered something interesting about regular Space Marine Bikes.

GW has recently gotten rid of the sets of 3 regular biker marines, the ones that used to come with the three metal torsos. With the release of the Dark Angels push, they have instead put out a lot of dark angels bikes, and gotten rid of the regular sets. You can still get the the bikes but only individually.

You can check for yourselves at the website.
COMING SOON
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440161a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
FAST
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440275a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

These ones are esily useable in a marine army. Swap the shoulder pad and dont put on the back feather-thing. The front actually looks better in the RW battleforce kit than on the regular bikes

For myself, the SM codex need a good update to create diversity for the Vanilla players. Not for "hardware" but for rules like they did in the 4ed.

When I look back at the FW Badab War, all the chapters had a caracter that give the little spark to have other thing that Ultramarine. Just changing the combat tactic for something else is all we want.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
So I discovered something interesting about regular Space Marine Bikes.

GW has recently gotten rid of the sets of 3 regular biker marines, the ones that used to come with the three metal torsos. With the release of the Dark Angels push, they have instead put out a lot of dark angels bikes, and gotten rid of the regular sets. You can still get the the bikes but only individually.

You can check for yourselves at the website.
COMING SOON
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440161a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
FAST
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440275a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

Welcome to the situation that Battle Sisters have been in for years now.

My condolences.

I think The basic codex is very playable and offers me things I miss when I play with the other codices. The base codex needs a bit of a revamp but not a huge change. I think Sterngaurd are still the best infantry unit in the game. I think the C:SM codex is very versatile and I default to it when I build my armies. I of course like shooty armies so I have a blood angels codex but have never fielded an army using the rules.


(as far as the OT conversation)

 funkyh wrote:
Stupid has its own scale and is up for argument. I know people who think that this hobby we all share is stupid due to the cost and they are just plastic toys. I think buying all the codexes to fill a whim to play all the marines is stupid.. I fear this has gotten off topic and should be moved to another topic...

OT: Codex Space Marines is the most flexible of all the codices and it opens enough doors to find what niche of other armies you'd like to try. If you like the assault troops, play BA. If you like cheese and psykers, play GK. If you likes bikes speeders and termies play DA. I apologize if I rubbed anyone wrong for how my opinions, meta, and personal choices to play fluffy have upset you all...

No reason to apologize mate. You are definitely allowed to have your opinion as you've stated. Just as others are allowed to disagree with you. However you play the game that works for you is perfectly acceptable if it makes you and your regular opponents happy then go for it. Just when you start throwing around words like how something is stupid, don't surprised when people jump in on it. It is one thing to dislike the way others play the game, but it is another to come across as thinking those who play differently from you are stupid. That is a whole different approach that kind of gets people's hackles up.

Usually people do pick their prefered flavor of marines and stick with it, but the system is set up to allow them to really do whatever they want to and if it works for them, and they have fun and their regular opponents aren't bothered by it, then more power to them too.

Skriker