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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 17:30:18
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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That's not saying much. Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 17:30:41
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 17:57:29
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Melissia wrote:That's not saying much.
Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.
I have a friend and all he plays are the SoBs. They stand their own fairly well, never seen him get completly crushed.
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On building Tyranid army flow chart.
Do you have enough Termagaunts?
No > Add More
Yes > No you don' t > Add more
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 18:07:43
Subject: Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Are we really going to have an anecdotal evidence fight?
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 18:08:44
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Melissia wrote:That's not saying much.
Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.
That's why you bring allies.
SoB by themselves are bottom tier. While they have some great units (Seraphim, Celestine), they are missing a few pieces. Allies can push sisters up to a solid-mid teir.
They are certainly no Grey Knights/Daemons, but they are on par with CSM or BA.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 18:09:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 18:08:55
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Kaldor wrote: AegisGrimm wrote:Further, I'm willing to bet a goodly amount of people thought your army was just as inappropriate as Eldar being counts-as Orks, but were too polite to tell you to your face.
Either that, or absolutely none at all thought that way.
Possible, but I doubt it.
AegisGrimm wrote:I have had an army of 3rd company Ultramarines since the latter days of 2nd edition. I fully intend to make an army to represent the 1st Company taking to the field in their Terminator armor using Deathwing rules, and even some Deathwing models painted as Ultramarines (with the DA shoulder symbol removed for a Ultramarine transfer). That way I can also use a pair of Landraiders that are already painted and won't cost me 75 bucks apiece.
I hardly think that makes me a tool, or even remotely betrays the "established theme" of the game. Hell, that's what a big part of 40k used to be about!
Absolutely, the rule of cool applies. Using Deathwing rules to represent a 1st Company army is very cool. Using Blood Angels to represent an Assault Company army is cool. Using Space Wolves to represent generic Marines because the rules are better is uncool, and should be frowned upon.
i absolutely disagree. if you have the models and the codex and want to say your blue marines are red that is ABSOLUTELY fine with me and anyone who says different isn't worth playing with. if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kaldor wrote:
Here's a poll I ran a while ago. I'm not going to pretend like that's an exhaustive study that conclusively proves anything, but I think it's indicative that it's not a minority opinion. Or rather, not a tiny minority.
You seem to be the only proponent of the 'no blue SW chapters here!' talking up in this thread.
I'll freely admit this is more of an issue for me than the regular gamer. It really grinds my gears when people take models for X, and rules for Y when their only motivation is an in-game advantage. It takes away from the narrative aspect of the game for me. It's not an issue when you're doing it for a narrative reason. An Ultramarine 1st Company army using Deathwing rules, or an 8th Company army using Blood Angels rules, or a Thousand Sons army using Grey Knight rules for example.
To me though, if you really just want to run an army with Space Wolf rules, then nut up and use a Space Wolf army. I can't see any good reason to take an army that already has rules, and use different rules for it.
if your imagination is good enough to imagine static plastic dudes pew pewing at each other on a table then you should be fine with imagining that blue plastic dudes are actually a bluish grey.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 18:13:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 18:21:09
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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labmouse42 wrote: Melissia wrote:That's not saying much. Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.
That's why you bring allies. SoB by themselves are bottom tier. While they have some great units (Seraphim, Celestine), they are missing a few pieces. Allies can push sisters up to a solid-mid teir. They are certainly no Grey Knights/Daemons, but they are on par with [...] BA.
Ye...nooooooooooo. Not even friggin' close....
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 18:21:17
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 18:30:51
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Alkasyn wrote: Kaldor wrote:davou wrote:Incorrect, if he wanted to play with the vanilla codex, it would have to be painted blue.
Salamanders are blue?! Someone alert GW, they've been painting them wrong this entire time!
Marines should generally only be played as the codex to which they belong, and you should never do something as crass as using Ultramarines was Space Wolves.
Says who? Some random purist on the Internet? There's nothing prohibiting a person from painting their army the way they like. GW actually encourages it. How can you tell there are surely no blue BA successor chapters? That's right, you can't.
BlackSanguinor wrote:Blood Angels don't "gain" army wide FNP and Furious Charge instead of Combat Taactics, they have to pay for it.
To all the people thinking that BA have to pay for anything, I give you this exercise- build an army using any army builder, let's say 1500 points of whatever you fancy. Take the same units in a BA list, an SM list and an SW list. (where possible, so do take Tacticals in BA and Grey Hunters in SW, and if you wanted a 5 man Terminator squad take a SW Wolf Guard squad and equip it with the same items - I know that Power Fists/ Storm Bolters cost more on Wolf Guard than they do on Vanilla Terminators, but bear with me).
What you will see is the following:
- BA can take the exact same amount of units and models + enough Sanguinary Priests to actually get FNP on everyone. That's because they have cheaper units.
- Even when using overpriced units like that sucky setup on Wolf Guard, you still manage to have the same amount of units and models on Wolves as you on Vanilla marines - they make up those points on Long Fangs, for example. Again, cheaper units.
- In both armies You have extra options, like Counter Attack on most units and better special options for GH in SW, or FNP/Furious Charge, Better Jump packs, Assault troops in BA.
- You get that ALL on top of what C: SM already has. You only lose Combat Tactics. That's the only major loss for those 2 codici.
- You lose Thunderfire Cannons, Bike Captains, Masters of the Forge and Ironclad Dreads.
- You get a plethora of different, sometimes better, units. (Furioso Dreads, Long Fangs, Grey Hunters, Assault Squads in Troops)
From a competitive point of view, there is little to no reason to play C; SM over any other SM variant. BA are the easiest choice for a disgruntled C: SM player, with SW requiring more customization and model work.
I wonder how will DA relate to C: SM. I think that if we can call BA the SM+ then DA will be SM++ - I heard a rumour that their Tacticals will cost 70 points for 5 men and a Sarge. If that's correct then they'd be 20 points cheaper than a similar Tac squad. You can get a Rhino for 35 points in the SM codex.
i think you should post some examples of this...
BA have more expensive tanks and terminators. what exactly is cheaper about BA compared to c:sm?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 18:52:21
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Melissia wrote: labmouse42 wrote: Melissia wrote:That's not saying much.
Sisters were almost last place, and they're still almost last place.
That's why you bring allies.
SoB by themselves are bottom tier. While they have some great units (Seraphim, Celestine), they are missing a few pieces. Allies can push sisters up to a solid-mid teir.
They are certainly no Grey Knights/Daemons, but they are on par with [...] BA.
Ye...nooooooooooo.
Not even friggin' close....
You guys should check out how many major tournaments lately have sisters of battle in the armies and where they are placing. There are quite a few.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 18:55:36
Subject: Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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And yet, Blood Angels are still better with a stronger, far more varied codex.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/10 18:55:46
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 20:20:38
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Boosting Black Templar Biker
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labmouse42 wrote:I do agree about the models though. Their really outdated now. I would love plastic sisters, especially seraphim..
I actually like the look of their models. Seraphim, regular and special weapon Battle Sisters, the Canoness... but obviously the price is a real problem and the reason why I don't have any yet. I was about to pull the trigger on some when I had a chance to buy -30% off, but in the end the money went to SM/Orks/ CSM instead since it was still more value for money (same discount on those too).
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Armies:
Primary: Black Templars Crimson Fists Orks
Allied: Sisters of Battle Imperial Guard |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 21:03:04
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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The style is very cool. Here are the problems with metal armies over plastic armies
- Every 4th model looks the same.
- Plastic versions have much more dynamic poses.
- Lack of customization options. Plastic kits make it much easier to customize the heck of your models.
If GW switch to plastic sisters, I would collected them in a heartbeat. The metal ones just are not worth it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 21:24:12
Subject: Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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C:SM is just fine...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 23:49:46
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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phoenixrisin wrote:if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.
They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.
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"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/10 23:50:48
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
Inside of a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT
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I hate to inform you that your incorrect opinions are not rules
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angel of ecstasy wrote:
You take a dump, you flip through the Dark Eldar codex, the concept art for Lelith Hesperax shows up and you pee on the floor.
2000 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 00:04:09
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight
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Absolutely.
I never said it was illegal. I said it wasn't generally advisable. People shouldn't push the bounds of legal, but socially questionable activity without a good reason.
That's why I linked you back to that post, because I didn't want to have to explain this all over again. So much for that, I guess.
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"Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 00:21:53
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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 Anyone else want to talk about how marines could be good and relevent? I would love to hear it instead of hearing all this nonsense.
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413th Lucius Exterminaton Legion- 4,000pts
Atalurnos Fleetbreaker's Akhelian Corps- 2500pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 00:22:22
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Deadly Dire Avenger
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This is why I made my own chapter. That way nobody can give me any  for saying they're codex marines because they're blue or some  like that. At that point if I have the proper models no rule is being broken. The Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves codex's aren't they're to only make those army's. They're alot there to let people make their own space marines chapter and have them play how they want. As well as support successor from these chapters. I can see the problem if someone said these guys that are painted with the exact blood angel scheme and iconography are actually dark angels. But basic models shared across all the army's nobody should complain about these being swapped around unless there is a true model problem where something is not represented. All armys use tactical marines. If you want a fluffy reason why there's a squad of ultramarine with those blood angels its because they were in the area and they're helping out. Grey knights are another issue however. Theyre models are actually differant and id agree that they should not be swapped around. Personally I have a custom chapter that I use to represent the Codex Marines and Blood Angels. I always make sure my models match my rules however.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 00:40:20
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
Inside of a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT
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Kaldor wrote:
And a yellow space wolf is not different in any way to an ork masquerading as an eldar.
Blood Angels:
Space Wolves:
Note how the two have identical proportions and only really differ in posing, bling, and hairstyle. Now for the other two.
Orks:
Eldar:
Note how the two have different proportions, wargear, and look nothing alike
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angel of ecstasy wrote:
You take a dump, you flip through the Dark Eldar codex, the concept art for Lelith Hesperax shows up and you pee on the floor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 00:45:57
Subject: Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Fireknife Shas'el
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Personally I think the Orks would look better with the mohawks.
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I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 00:56:48
Subject: Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
Inside of a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT
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What about reverse mohawks? Like a regular except you take away only the middle bit instead of leaving only the middle bit
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angel of ecstasy wrote:
You take a dump, you flip through the Dark Eldar codex, the concept art for Lelith Hesperax shows up and you pee on the floor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 01:06:20
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot
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Isn't a reverse Mohawk just balding?
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4000pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 01:16:59
Subject: Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
Inside of a CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT
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Sort of, but not as much as a regular mohawk
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angel of ecstasy wrote:
You take a dump, you flip through the Dark Eldar codex, the concept art for Lelith Hesperax shows up and you pee on the floor.
2000 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 01:34:04
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot
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Reverse Mohawk. Scary.
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4000pts |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 02:05:22
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Paramount Plague Censer Bearer
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I don't feel like we who play C:SM are punished at all since we have unique stuff of our own. We have ironclad dreads, thunderfire cannons, and good librarions. At least with 6th if there is something cool from another marine codex, we can ally with them at battle brother status.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 02:24:01
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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What's interesting about this picture is that the marines are from the basic tactical box (which the C: SM also use) so the models are identical to those fielded by Ultramarines, Imperial Fists etc players. Also interesting is that these marines are from the original version of this box released with 3rd edition, rather than representing the upgraded contents of the current tactical box.
Example 1001 of how GW can be cheapskates by using old models to sell new ones.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 03:03:32
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Leutnant
Hiding in a dark alley with a sharp knife!
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I do agree about the (sisters)models though. Their really outdated now. I would love plastic sisters, especially seraph
Why? Because they are "old"?
The are Perry Brothers sculpts. The Perry boys are among the best sculptors working in the wargaming industry and even their older works stands up well today. The certainly have much cleaner lines than today's over-done cluttered models.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the metal vs. plastic thing as I have always prefered metal miniatures. But then I do very little converting on my stuff, so that kills the primary advantage that plastics have.
They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.
Yet more elitism and "What do mean you play it on ordinary paper!!!???!!11" drek.
Happily that view is decidely in the minority...especially the real world.
TR
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Former Kommandant, KZ Dakka
"I was Oldhammer before Oldhammer was cool!"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 05:48:35
Subject: Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Whether they're Perry Brothers sculpts or not, they're clunky, heavy, restricted to a very limited number of poses, and $20 for three models. The primary advantage of plastics is poseability, convertability is a related side effect. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kaldor wrote:phoenixrisin wrote:if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.
They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.
The problem here is that despite the fact that the core units (Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Predators, Devastators, whatnot) are the same, there are certain unique 'special' units from each Codex that have distinct models. It's confusing to tell someone "Hey, I've got three squads of Assault Marines here, but I'm counting these ones as Death Company", the models don't look like Death Company, and it can lead to mixups, annoyance, and argument. Better to have the 'official' models for pick-up or tournament games; if you're playing with a regular opponent it's up to them, trying to put the burden of figuring out what you want each unit to represent on someone slows down pick-up games and ends up being annoying to everyone. So, elitist crap aside, Kaldor's got a point, he's just being overly-preachy about presenting it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/11 05:55:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 07:58:26
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Nasty Nob
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phoenixrisin wrote:
i think you should post some examples of this...
BA have more expensive tanks and terminators. what exactly is cheaper about BA compared to c:sm?
I suppose someone can argue that access to things like assault marines as troops is 'cheaper' becuase suddenly for the same points they can do something that vanilla marines cant; score.
But I stand by my oppinion that vanilla marines are fine, fun and in no great need for rework.... I'll gladly take a new codex at the expence of all your other fool's, but I'm not about to raise a rabble for it either.
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ERJAK wrote:
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 09:31:07
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Kaldor wrote:phoenixrisin wrote:if i have $1000 worth of marines and i want to say they're DA one day and BA one day and i have the proper model i'm using any codex i want.
They aren't the proper models any more than using Orks as Eldar are the proper models.
surely you see how foolish this statement is...
it's the same model painted a different color.
example: A A = same LETTER different COLOR
example 2: A B = different LETTER different COLOR
/thread
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/01/11 10:14:52
Subject: Re:Punished for using Codex Marines?
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Boosting Black Templar Biker
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labmouse42 wrote:The style is very cool. Here are the problems with metal armies over plastic armies
- Every 4th model looks the same.
- Plastic versions have much more dynamic poses.
- Lack of customization options. Plastic kits make it much easier to customize the heck of your models.
If GW switch to plastic sisters, I would collected them in a heartbeat. The metal ones just are not worth it.
Yeah the similarity is a fair point. It's the one thing I dislike about doing my plastic Templars at the moment. I want all my Crusaders to have tabards. Which leads to only three torso variations. Of course there are only minor variations in regular tac torsos, but hanging cloth always being the same is more of a standout. Still looks far better than a regular torso, though. But additionally there's only three different poses for BT bolt pistols and chainswords, one per each type of power weapon, etc. And I'm not that good at converting. Ah well, I'll make do I suppose, and definitely going to try to repose some legs as well.
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Armies:
Primary: Black Templars Crimson Fists Orks
Allied: Sisters of Battle Imperial Guard |
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