http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/502018.page

Above is a list I have played recently and it has yet to lose a raider and has taken down necrons/csm, IG/SW, and another dark angels build already. So it brings up the question. Does the new dark angels book bring back land raider spam as a viable tactic? Thoughts??? So far the list is undefeated a perfect 7-0 and has yet to lose more then one land raider in a game.(3-0 vs SW, 2-0 vs Necrons/CSM,1-0 vs Dark Eldar, 1-0 vs Dark Angels)

A battle report against space wolves:

HIS LIST:

It was a hard fought game and with 5 objectives it was a challenge. i managed to win 2 obj to 1 obj and I also claimed slay the warlord and first blood. The deathwing terminators and DW vehicle were the only major casualties. The list is still undefeated. That 4++ save was hot tonight.

HQ: Wolf Lord in Power Armour (3#, 295 pts)
. . 1 Wolf Lord in Power Armour (Storm Shield + Thunder Hammer + Runic Armour + Wolf Tail Talisman + Wolftooth Necklace + Thunderwolf Mount + Saga of the Bear)
. . . . 2 Fenrisian Wolf

Fast Attack: Thunderwolf Cavalry (2#, 175 pts)
. . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry
. . . . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry (Storm Shield + Power Sword)
. . . . 1 Thunderwolf Cavalry (Storm Shield)

HQ: Rune Priest in Power Armour (1#, 110 pts)
. . 1 Rune Priest in Power Armour + Chooser of the Slain

HQ: Rune Priest in Power Armour (1#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Rune Priest in Power Armour

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (9#, 190 pts)
. . 8 Grey Hunters Pack (Mark of the Wulfen + Wolf Standard + Plasma gun)
. . . . 1 Rhino

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (9#, 185 pts)
. . 8 Grey Hunters Pack (Mark of the Wulfen + Wolf Standard + Meltagun)
. . . . 1 Rhino

Troops: Grey Hunters Pack (6#, 150 pts)
. . 5 Grey Hunters Pack (Flamer)
. . . . 1 Razorback (Twin-Linked Lascannon)

Elite: Wolf Guard Pack (3#, 119 pts)
. . 1 Wolf Guard Pack
. . . . 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Combi-Plasmagun + Wolf Claw)
. . . . 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Combi-Meltagun + Power Fist)
. . . . 1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Plasma Pistol + Power Sword)

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6#, 170 pts)
. . 5 Long Fangs Pack (Lascannon x2 + Missile Launcher x3)
. . . . 1 Squad Leader

Heavy Support: Long Fangs Pack (6#, 160 pts)
. . 5 Long Fangs Pack (Missile Launcher x3 + Plasma Cannon x2)
. . . . 1 Squad Leader

Heavy Support: Whirlwind (1#, 95 pts)
. . 1 Whirlwind (Pintle-mounted Storm Bolter)

: Aegis Defence Lines (2#, 100 pts)
. . 1 Aegis Defence Lines
. . . . 1 Gun Emplacement (Quad-gun)


Image Description:
Night fight turn 1. Space wolves go first and immobilize one of their own rhino's on the ADL. He moves to adjust his army to my deployment of all left flank. Night fight prevents anything really from happening. I advance a total of 18" with all 4 land raiders to close the distance.

Image Description:
SW Turn 2: He cast divination on long fangs.However, after all of his shooting the landraiders pass a 4++ save of a penetrate and a glance. He pulls his TWC back some as he wasnt able to charge and it would leave them exposed in front of my dakka raiders.
DA Turn 2: I move up some with 3 of the landraiders and pivot the middle land raider to shoot his long fangs they all die in the ensuing shooting phase. The other raiders target the rhino with the melta and combi melta in it and mange to wreck it.

Image Description:
SW turn 3: He decides to advance the TWC now as his troops are exposed. He manages to repair his immobilized rhino. His shooting again causes no damage because the pen that makes it through gets saved and the 2 lances also get saved(The 4++ was kind of hot this game). DA turn 3: I decide to just pivot and bring the full weight of fire to bare. I POTMS a MM at his newly working rhino but fail to penetrate. I manage to cause 2 wounds to his lord and 1 to another TWC. The raiders caused over 20 wounds on his grey hunters so they went to ground to save them. He pretty much had no choice and this at least keeps the dangerous melta off of me.

Image Description:
SW turn 4: His rhino up top advances towards the top objective and pops smoke. His shooting finally brings down the deathwing landraider (he had immobolized it and I had him re-roll and it exploded... should of let it stick but TWC looked hungry). Speaking of TWC they charge what remains of the deathwing terminators after his army kills 2 more. They manage to lock combat with 1 DWT still alive (*Face Palm*).
DA turn 4: I move backwards wanting nothing to do with the TWC and realizing I am gonna have to claim these objectives soon. My top raider POTMS an assault cannon at the rhino up top but he makes a pen save but a glance goes through. I POTMS an assault cannon at his razorback and immobilize it this time. MY DWT dies in combat and the wolves consolidate towards my TAC raider

SW Turn 5: His top rhino turns sideways and disembarks the squad on that objective. His grey hunters move up some on the bottom and the ones in his backfield move over a little to secure his home objective. He manages to shoot and glance the TAC land raider once. The TWC charge the TAC land raider but do no damage.
DA Turn 5: I have a tough choice to either stay in raiders or get out just in case game ends. I decide to get out as I think the threat level to them is low as long as I can kill his TWC. The Librarian jumps out of his raider to run over and contest his middle objective. Both tactical squads disembark onto objectives. The bottom squad shoots at the TWC along with the land raider and finally they fall to weight of dice. The top tac squad runs as they cant shoot over 12".

We roll to see if game continues and it does not.
Game ends: Me contesting 1 of his objectives and and claiming two of my own. In addition, I capture slay the warlord, and first blood. DA- VP 8 SW- VP 3 We played out what he would of done next turn but the game still ended in a DA victory.

Post Game AAR: I have always hated fighting against Wolf Lords and this match-up renewed that hatred. Had their not been a challenge in the DWT combat he would of wiped them all. It was a smart move by my opponent. He held the wolf lord back longer then he should of though. However, I can understand not wanting him to expose him needlessly. I finally lost my first land raider. My opponent said if he could change anything he would of played back hiding from them more until he needed to jump on objectives. Either way it was a GG and the DA Raider Spam remains undefeated still.

Not really, you just played against people without sufficient anti-tank weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:
Not really, you just played against people without sufficient anti-tank weapons.

People only have so many ways to bring down AV14. If you take away those means then you can not longer be killed.

The Space wolves/IG player had

2 units of space wolves with 2 plasma each one was in drop pod other in rhino
2 units of space wolves with 2 melta each one was in drop pod other in rhino.
1 Multi-Melta dread in drop pod
1 Dread with PC
1 vindicator
1 predator with las sponsons
5 long fangs with missle launchers
2 rune priest with lightning
1 allied vendetta with a 3xmelta vet squad inside

I would say his list had plenty of anti-tank weaponry. Its just when he could damage the landraiders the list is built with a 4+ invul save.

Is the power field generator a cover or invo and does it work in cc?

 schadenfreude wrote:
Is the power field generator a cover or invo and does it work in cc?

Its an invul save.

A model with a power field generator, and all models (friendly and enemy) within 3" of a model with a power field generator, have a 4+ invulnerable save.


The issue is a lot of people use plasma instead of melta now with it being +1 on the damage table and it having a better range.

As a Necron player, I certainly hope so.

The 4+ invo makes it viable, but is it only a 3" range?

Biggest potential problems I see are max wraith double dlord crons, gk terminator spam pallied or gk termies, nids spamming crushing claw tervigons, and Tzeentch deamon spam.

Against most lists it will probably work because of limited vulnerable units that can hurt a land raiderl

 schadenfreude wrote:
Biggest potential problems I see are max wraith double dlord crons, gk terminator spam pallied or gk termies, nids spamming crushing claw tervigons, and Tzeentch deamon spam.

Or mech IG with Manticores and/or Medusas. With everything having to stay within 3" you pretty much can't miss with the blast weapons, and all that STR 10 (or better) ordnance is going to make Land Raiders cry. Meanwhile the DA has nothing with better than 24" range, and very limited shooting that can even roll dice against AV 12 (that nice expensive banner is completely wasted).

 Peregrine wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Biggest potential problems I see are max wraith double dlord crons, gk terminator spam pallied or gk termies, nids spamming crushing claw tervigons, and Tzeentch deamon spam.

Or mech IG with Manticores and/or Medusas. With everything having to stay within 3" you pretty much can't miss with the blast weapons, and all that STR 10 (or better) ordnance is going to make Land Raiders cry. Meanwhile the DA has nothing with better than 24" range, and very limited shooting that can even roll dice against AV 12 (that nice expensive banner is completely wasted).

Demolishers are another big threat. Their range sucks, but their s10 ordinance blast is ap2.

While it's an Anvil list... isn't it more difficult to play considering the new mission types?

As a lot of people have said in various times and places, redundancy is a killer and any exploitation of force multipliers is going to get you very far.

If the list has a theme and exploits each piece of wargear (dev banner and PFG), then it's legit.

DA didn't bring back Land Raider spam, I'm not sure anything is going to turn buying 4 $70 models into a trend, I don't even want to buy 1 LR at that price, but I'm sure those that do will have a better time of it. If a 4+ save on AV14 worked back when Orks were doing it, I see no reason it shouldn't be the bees knees on Land Raiders. God's sake, that is a brutal list.

The thing is, you're going to throw off a lot of people who think a couple of Meltaguns is sufficient. And that's going to be a lot of people. Potentially a steamroller in a competitive environment. If nothing else, it should be there just to keep the competitive community on its toes and prevent it from getting too comfortable.

Like you said, he didn't lose. When he does, post the list that they won against and we'll talk about it then.

As others have said, I can see you either steam rolling lists or them doing the same to you. Either win big or lose big IMO. You only have 2 scoring units, so you better pound them hard.

 Billagio wrote:
As others have said, I can see you either steam rolling lists or them doing the same to you. Either win big or lose big IMO. You only have 2 scoring units, so you better pound them hard.

4 scoring units after combat squads.

The original list was Belial deathwing but I found the extra points were not needed as I had yet to find a situation where I had to get out of the transport.

If you tailor a list to beat this then you might pull it off. However, can that same list handle the other builds out their? I see guard as the biggest threat. I already faced wraiths with a destroyer lord. After they died my opponent didnt really have much left to take me out and called the game. He has tesla though instead of gauss on his immortals(which were running from me either way).

My competitive guard list these days only has 4 melta in it and a manticore that could reliably threaten AV14. If I lose those then I would be just stuck taking the beatings. Someone ran heldrakes on me. It flew overhead helplessly unable to damage the raiders. This list is designed to go 2nd. Especially in objective games.

The list doesn't seem bad, but there are a few things that I noticed. The first is that the list has very few ways of dealing with armor themselves. You have 5 Terminators (whom I assume have either fists or hammers, making them S8) and 4 Multi-meltas. Any list that brings a lot of armor above 10 is going to have a field day against you. You are also weak to fliers. While some fliers either lack the punch or are stuck with AV10, Vendettas and Doom Scythes will have a field day with your armor. Heck, even Night Scythes can just keep out of your way until you are forced to disgorge your Tactical squads, which they then go to work destroying. Also, necrons seem like they may be prolematic. Stormteks can appear out of nowhere and even with an Invulnerable save can wreck havok on a vehicle. Scarab Farm is probably the most direct counter to your list, as they can simply do their best to hide out of line of sight (which isn't that difficult for a scarab base) and then rush in and turn your Land Raider into an oversized cardboard box after a rainy day. Tau will also mess you up, as what Tau list at 1850 isn't packing 3x3 broadsides?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:
What exactly would your TAC list have to handle that effectively?

Nine Broadsides.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

RegalPhantom wrote:
The list doesn't seem bad, but there are a few things that I noticed. The first is that the list has very few ways of dealing with armor themselves. You have 5 Terminators (whom I assume have either fists or hammers, making them S8) and 4 Multi-meltas. Any list that brings a lot of armor above 10 is going to have a field day against you. You are also weak to fliers. While some fliers either lack the punch or are stuck with AV10, Vendettas and Doom Scythes will have a field day with your armor. Heck, even Night Scythes can just keep out of your way until you are forced to disgorge your Tactical squads, which they then go to work destroying. Also, necrons seem like they may be prolematic. Stormteks can appear out of nowhere and even with an Invulnerable save can wreck havok on a vehicle. Scarab Farm is probably the most direct counter to your list, as they can simply do their best to hide out of line of sight (which isn't that difficult for a scarab base) and then rush in and turn your Land Raider into an oversized cardboard box after a rainy day. Tau will also mess you up, as what Tau list at 1850 isn't packing 3x3 broadsides?

Yea that is one drawback is the lack of anti-mech in return but the MM have dont pretty well as of yet especially when I get into double tap range. The Assault cannons have been hit or miss but do ok against 10-12 armor. Vendetta's still need a 5 to glance and a 6 to pen. In addition, I get a 4+ invul. My main idea was to ignore just about every flier except the doom scythe. If you would like to see this list in action I can show you how it works on vassal. Its under estimated. Not many things can do enough damage. 50% of what you can do can be saved with the invul.

It is a very interesting list I just hope you don't run into a manticore/vendetta spam list.

People might actually start running multiple vanquisher lists if this list gets too popular.

I personally see manticores out of LOS as the greatest bane to your list and they really aren't that uncommon in IG TAC lists. If some points could be squeezed out to allow you to take out these sorts of units that would probably help alot.

doomscythe is biggest thing I see since it'll hit pretty much all the tanks since they are so bunched up.

I also have an acolyte build with GK that has a squad of 12 meltabomb suicide squad to take down MC's and LR's It's only 108 points!

Still kind of tough to take down 4++ invul though I'll give you that.

For volume of hits vs a land raider with invul would probably be something like GK dread knight with sword or D.Lord and scythe for the necrons. Really makes me like them seige guns at least.

But ya, for a fairly standard opponent without too much AV 14 popping abilities, it's gonna be hard to handle. Lascannons just don't work.

On the flip side, our local meta has 2 DE players with a crap ton of lances and venom spam, void bomber too, it'd probably eat this land raider rush even with the invul.

Well, LR spam is a viable option since the 6th ed is semi-mech and so armies bring less anti-tank to bear these days.

Well its a rock list, well suited to ETC style play where you can throw it out as a difficult to deal with army, but there are heaps of very common hard counters to this among the top tier builds which makes it sub par for a standard tournament list (i.e I expect you to get at least 4 wins, but in a reasonable sized field you will hit your counter list which means you probably won't win the tournament). For me the biggest issue is that it is forced to stay bunched together and nothing has any real range, your opponent will have complete control of the board and you will have to try and force him off objectives late. As with any low model count army you will struggle as soon as things start to go wrong - someone immbolising your Power Field/Banner Land Raider (which btw they might as well shoot even if its hiding at the back since 4+ invun is better than 5+ cover anyway) cripples you.

Some common power builds that could handle this easily;
Daemons - Flamers will hit multiple Land Raiders at once and easily burn you to death and Screamers and MCs hurt when they get to you (and they will get to you). You have no real way to project power as everything has to stay bunched together and has limited range, so you wouldn't even be able to threaten the usually minimalistic scoring units.
Nids - With basically no ability to deal with flying MCs the common 2 Flyrants 2+ Tervigon lists will have a field day, the Tyrants will reliably hit you turn 2 and the psychically buffed Tervigons will follow up and box you in with Gaunts.
Necrons - Wraiths can still eat Land Raiders thanks to Rending and the Destroyer Lords hurt them badly + will tank most of the bolter wounds on the way in. Lists without the D Lords will probably have at least a couple of Storm Crypteks which melt away any vehicle around when combined with standard Gauss weapons. You will also occasionally run into Scarabs and other units which can eat through your armour or glance you to death.
IG - a good Mech Guard list will easily beat this even if it doesn't kill the Land Raiders (and with 3 Vendettas and at least one Manticore being pretty common I would expect to kill at least one over the course of a game). Since you aren't going to punch your way through Chimeras very quickly the Guard player can basically surround you with them and force you to kill them in order to get anywhere, which probably gives the Guard player the game since they should get the bulk of the objectives.
Tau - despite the Mathhammer above Tau should still do ok against this list. With AP1 a single Railgun getting through has a 50% chance of getting a kill, and further 1/3 chance of crippling your list in some way (stunning or immobilising a Raider means you either stay where you are or leave it behind to die next turn). 6 Railguns (a more sane number for a TAC list, allowing for a Railhead or 3 x 2 config) has ~50% chance of doing meaningful damage per turn, and since you have nothing that will be threatening them that damage over 6 turns easily drops a couple of Land Raiders.

Battlewagon + deffrolla spam could hurt this list too.

Strong list, for sure. It's not quite versatile enough for my tastes though. I've been contemplating power field + Crusader + dakka banner myself, and came to the conclusion that I preferred more, and cheaper, vehicles, for versatility's sake.

By the way, I'd give the Librarian an auspex which is too good to be left home.

I like the idea and I hope it keeps pounding dudes away!

Armies that could be a problem!

1. Necrons - Simply put, that list is almost an auto-win for most decent cron players. Just walk up with a warrior blob or two and eat the list alive. Even with bad cover they will be pouring as many shots on you as you will on them and they can stand back up. Those land raiders will be gone for good when they're gone.

2. Dark Eldar - Again, here's an army that really doesnt shrug a low model count high AV army. The lack of AV12 spam will like a christmas miracle to them! They can pour Dark Lances on your raiders and have the tools to nerf your range called night shields, something that many DE players take now in 6th.

3. Tau - Not as hard to fight as the two above, but they can still kill a land raider with decent ease.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I like the idea and I hope it keeps pounding dudes away!

Armies that could be a problem!

1. Necrons - Simply put, that list is almost an auto-win for most decent cron players. Just walk up with a warrior blob or two and eat the list alive. Even with bad cover they will be pouring as many shots on you as you will on them and they can stand back up. Those land raiders will be gone for good when they're gone.

2. Dark Eldar - Again, here's an army that really doesnt shrug a low model count high AV army. The lack of AV12 spam will like a christmas miracle to them! They can pour Dark Lances on your raiders and have the tools to nerf your range called night shields, something that many DE players take now in 6th.

3. Tau - Not as hard to fight as the two above, but they can still kill a land raider with decent ease.

Just played against a dark eldar list that had 3 void raven bombers and several lance weapons including the trueborn lance package. The list actually held up pretty well. I lost my first land raider I believe on turn 3. Though he was vector dancing with his fliers all game and on turn 5 we realized they didnt have vector dancer. It was bottom of five so I just moved over and contested his objective he had and had mine and we called it there. With the change in his fliers constantly having angles on me no telling what the result would of been like as they were the main threat with S9 lance.

 Tomb King wrote:
However, can that same list handle the other builds out their? I see guard as the biggest threat. I already faced wraiths with a destroyer lord.

Daemons will tear it to shreds.
* FMC's smashing will crush the land raiders.
* 9 flamers will crush one land raider a turn (outside of the 4++ zone)
* Screamers will tear open land raiders.

That would not be a big issue, were not deamons one of the best codex's out today.

I would think that DE would be able to kite your list really well, as some had mentioned before. Even a DE TAC list has fast lances in it somewhere, which could easily zoom around you stripping hull points and getting the occasional pen while staying out of your 24" range. That's your biggest hang up I think.

Dark Lances would probably be perfect for this list. You'd have high mobility and a greater range, and they can put so many damn lances on their vehicles it's nuts.

Just one army, though.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Peregrine wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:
What exactly would your TAC list have to handle that effectively?

Nine Broadsides.

5 chimeras with vets/command squads.

Demolisher spam.

Manticores.

Deep-striking stormies.

That's all in a TAC. I could tailor it even more offensively. Note that competitive guard does not equal spamming vendettas.

Termie squads with chainfists?

I actually wouldn't mind taking the list against daemons. They have to get close. That fixes the range issue. If they manage to bring down a vehicle with flamers then what is stopping everything else from bringing down that vehicle as well. I will have to find me a daemon player to give them a shot at it. Anyone wanna throw me a game on vassal with daemons? No one where I am currently stationed plays them. Just shoot me a PM if anyone would like to see this list in action against a possible build that you think would work. A lot of the list people suggest are just speculations of what should work. However, I have played a few of the suggestions and the results were not even close. The list is tougher then it looks.

the only problem i see in this and would take advantage of is the fact that you cant really split your forces without a huge risk. Thus as your 1 style ball it will be effective with 14 av walls, but also lack range. It will have its down falls, but against the meta with a 4+ invlun you should be right to stomp most armies.

Let's see, competitive builds that I see regularly or expect to on the scene and not mentioned so far:

Ravenwing Armies
Space Wolves with Termies/Lonewolves/Logan led Long Fangs (all pretty common)
Vulkan/Libby SM (with pods)
GK w/3 Dreadknights (preferably Strike Spam but there are other options)
Deathwing Armies
Nurgle Oblit Spam
Ork Greentide (Under perfect conditions you average only 28 GEQ's and you won't have perfect conditions if your opponent isn't "special")

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there are several more that 10 minutes at work couldn't bring to mind

Lately it's been pretty nice playing against armies with multiple Land Raiders, as Dark Eldar that is. Dark Lances aren't even the best tool for the job, HayWyches are.

Throw a unit of Haywire grenades at them and its game over, doesn't really matter if its a Rhino or a LandRaider. Even better, if there's a unit in the Land Raider then turbo boost some reavers to surround the thing so the unit can't emergency disembark when the Wyches throw a grenade then charge in and glance it to a wreck. If the LRs sit back, Lances go to work, if they advance, the Wyches go to work.

Not saying its perfect, DE have problems with their fair share of lists, LandRaider Spam isn't one of them though. Throwing that many points into vehicles that my troops can handle is fine by me.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Let's see, competitive builds that I see regularly or expect to on the scene and not mentioned so far:

Ravenwing Armies
Space Wolves with Termies/Lonewolves/Logan led Long Fangs (all pretty common)
Vulkan/Libby SM (with pods)
GK w/3 Dreadknights (preferably Strike Spam but there are other options)
Deathwing Armies
Nurgle Oblit Spam
Ork Greentide (Under perfect conditions you average only 28 GEQ's and you won't have perfect conditions if your opponent isn't "special")

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there are several more that 10 minutes at work couldn't bring to mind

Honestly not really afraid of ravenwing. 27pts per marine is all I see and weight of dice bring them down. Something my armies usually have plenty of.

Ive only faced logan once in a tournament and I think he is pretty awesome I like the fluff and the rules on him.

A drop pod vulcan list could hurt. If I knew what was coming I would have to castle up in a corner to try and minimize damage there.

The 3 dreadknights would be rough but that is over 700 pts in itself. I would have use the libby's psychic shriek power to help combat them. If a list had 3 dreadknights I would have to wonder what else they have for AV14 besides hoping for rending.

I ran a deathwing against a devastation banner already. Luckily my opponent was not that good of player and I was able to get into his ranks with 2 of 16 terminators and he had no way of winning the game because my one land raider could contest his one objective.

Nurgle oblits would hurt I would expect on average 6 at 1850pts depending the build. The lascannons statistically struggle to bring my land raiders down especially with the 4++ so the oblits would have to close the distance and use MM or melta. The CSM list probably woundnt have that many other options for AV14. Bolters would average around 5 wounds a turn on the nurgle oblits, the assault cannons around 3.5 wounds, and the Multi-metla's around 1.5. All in a vacuum though.

The green tide would be fun to deal with. With bolters only doing around 32 wounds per turn if no cover was present. When the time came I would just have to make sure I got the charge.

A true Ravenwing list, for 1,300, has 12 Meltas and 36 Bikes, and Sammael. You kill, optimally, 8 bikes per turn. And there are still 550pts to spend on other stuff. I wouldn't be worried about 4 LR's in any of the RW lists I'm building.

Remember with Vulkan and a Libby that you're going to rerolling successful Invuls. Meaning you can basically count on a LR per Sternguard squad and depending on how they are equiped the loss of the unit inside too. And these are units good against everything nowadays, expect to see them more once people catch up.

3 DK's are 480pts. That's with the Torrent flamer which any TAC DK should have. I don't need to fly to get you. You have to get close enough to hurt other units. My DK's will just walk up and play face punch. And if you're shooting at them you're not shooting at my infantry. And if you're driving you're losing shots.

With Nurgle oblits you're likely to see them paired with those nasty flamers and screamers though.

Your list is poor for dealing with multiple axis threats. It's a nice brick. But I wouldn't trust it at a larger event. And at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Personal opinion naturally

 Hulksmash wrote:
A true Ravenwing list, for 1,300, has 12 Meltas and 36 Bikes, and Sammael. You kill, optimally, 8 bikes per turn. And there are still 550pts to spend on other stuff. I wouldn't be worried about 4 LR's in any of the RW lists I'm building.

Remember with Vulkan and a Libby that you're going to rerolling successful Invuls. Meaning you can basically count on a LR per Sternguard squad and depending on how they are equiped the loss of the unit inside too. And these are units good against everything nowadays, expect to see them more once people catch up.

3 DK's are 480pts. That's with the Torrent flamer which any TAC DK should have. I don't need to fly to get you. You have to get close enough to hurt other units. My DK's will just walk up and play face punch. And if you're shooting at them you're not shooting at my infantry. And if you're driving you're losing shots.

With Nurgle oblits you're likely to see them paired with those nasty flamers and screamers though.

Your list is poor for dealing with multiple axis threats. It's a nice brick. But I wouldn't trust it at a larger event. And at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Personal opinion naturally

lol would never run this locally. It would auto-win too much to be fun.

The 3DK's i threw in the teleporters because most TAC with the DK include them at least from what I have seen.(my guard hate them)

Ravenwing is 18 wounds a turn if I did not move. 10 from 96TL bolter shots, 5 from AC, and 3 from melta(in a vacumm of course and purely average.

Your numbers are off but only slightly as you don't account for Jink. And against a brick like this army you should never get full shots against a bike list.

Bear in mind everything, outside of the ravenwing,I posted is less than 50% of an 1850 army (most the time less). And bear in mind many people covered other possible builds that I didn't feel like repeating

I would t bring the list in question because it would get laughed off the table by all the flamers and screamers in our local meta.

I'd just like to chime in and say my BA have not bought into the plasma hype. I still mostly run melta. Melta is the king of making stuff dead; all hail the king baby! And they are assault, not rapid fire

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

I sure hope not, or Dark Eldar flickerfields wouldn't do anything.

 Heartless wrote:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

The rules dont cover vehicles and invulnerable saves. It has been discussed at length in the YMDC forum and people generally play invul saves for vehicles because the intent is obvious. Have yet to see anyone argue otherwise in a game to date.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Heartless wrote:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

The rules dont cover vehicles and invulnerable saves. It has been discussed at length in the YMDC forum and people generally play invul saves for vehicles because the intent is obvious. Have yet to see anyone argue otherwise in a game to date.

I would argue this by saying that I very much doubt that it was the intention of the games designer to allow not one but FOUR Land Raiders to get a 3++ for 30pts.

 Heartless wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Heartless wrote:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

The rules dont cover vehicles and invulnerable saves. It has been discussed at length in the YMDC forum and people generally play invul saves for vehicles because the intent is obvious. Have yet to see anyone argue otherwise in a game to date.

I would argue this by saying that I very much doubt that it was the intention of the games designer to allow not one but FOUR Land Raiders to get a 3++ for 30pts.

Its a 4+ invul save for all friend and enemy units with 3". I would say they knew what they were doing it can benefit units assaulting the landraider or staying close. It is expensive for what your bringing and can potentially be in vain if you fail a 4++/

 Tomb King wrote:


Its a 4+ invul save for all friend and enemy units with 3". I would say they knew what they were doing it can benefit units assaulting the landraider or staying close. It is expensive for what your bringing and can potentially be in vain if you fail a 4++/

My mistake, but the point still stands. Your 4 AV 14 all round tanks have a 50% to negate any damage. And whilst it may be "potentially in vain" you could also pass every 4++ to ever try to make. I would also question the use of RAI in an argument as neither of us actually can say for definite what the games designers intended. Thus the need for FAQs.

 Heartless wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:


Its a 4+ invul save for all friend and enemy units with 3". I would say they knew what they were doing it can benefit units assaulting the landraider or staying close. It is expensive for what your bringing and can potentially be in vain if you fail a 4++/

My mistake, but the point still stands. Your 4 AV 14 all round tanks have a 50% to negate any damage. And whilst it may be "potentially in vain" you could also pass every 4++ to ever try to make. I would also question the use of RAI in an argument as neither of us actually can say for definite what the games designers intended. Thus the need for FAQs.

You can take further arguments over to the YMDC forum. I would rather not derail the thread with rules lawyering. The only time an invul save is mentioned in regards to vehicles is PG 5 of the space wolves FAQ that mentions bjorn taking an invul save from a glancing or penetrating hit.

OP, as I mentioned in your army list thread I think your landraider spam is a rock paper scissors army. There are too many common tac lists that could deal with the av14 spam that I don't think this is a GT level tourney winning list. I could see some local metas not being able to handle it though.

It is true that so far the meta has shifted to have more plasma than melta but I don't think that opens the door for a list like this, but time will tell.

Your biggest problems for this list will be necrons because not much in that codex cant destroy vehicles. chaos boys who love their demon princes. Flamers, big tyranids. Dark eldar lance spam if the dice gods are being fickle, as far as haywire grenades I don't see how they would survive to actually assault the vehicles. IG vendetta spam 3 twin linked lascanons are definitely going to put the hurt on anyone.

On the plus side your raiders are av 14 people apparently think that's paper now. Your hurricane bolters+assault cannon fire will clear your path against pretty much anything. And to top it off you have 4 of them. I think this list is very viable in an edition where the band wagon has shifted to plasma. Any blob based army will be gunned down with that banner cheese. Also anyone trying to get into melta range is getting shot to pieces.

This list makes me wish GW didn't give the monolith the nerf bat by taking away jink, so I could spam some av 14

Wouldn't it work better as Blood Angels (who get cheaper raiders) and Dark Angels as Allies?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Wouldn't it work better as Blood Angels (who get cheaper raiders) and Dark Angels as Allies?

-Matt

The robed guys couldn't embark on the Vampire's rides though. And does the banner effect allies?

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

 Clang wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

Missed the part where the dude said it wasn't for local play?

Honestly, to solve your droppod/daemons problem, bring some GK allies in in a psyammo crusader with a cheap mallus HQ and a strike squad. A full 10 man would be best, so you can combat squad and get two chance at casting warp quake.

One thing to keep in mind is that vehicles can't contest. To do that, you'd actually have to disembark your guys.

Sisters of Battle and Chaos both have invuln saves on their vehicles by default.

I'm pretty sure vehicles can get invulns. Otherwise two whole armies would have their rules completely invalidated.

As for this list, I wouldn't be too worried. I'm used to fighting against leman russes with +4 cover saves, and use them myself. I know how to crack armor.

Your biggest problem I see though would just be getting people off of all the objectives. With my foot guard list, I could just run guardsmen to every objective and just tie you up with a portion of my force. Even if I only knock out one or two of your landraiders, there's no way you'll be able to knock me off all the objectives in time. Especially when some matches have 5-6 objectives or ones placed far away from each other.

EDIT: However, as a guard player, any list that can bring large amounts of AV 14 does make me all tingly inside. I'd love to see this list in action.

I used to run triple and even quadruple-LR's back in my daemonhunter days. I actually used to do very well with them, but I've got to admit, it's somewhat of a hit-or-miss army. It can still win, but it lacks the balance to win consistently against good players with balanced TAC armies (such as what you will most likely find in a GT setting). Its damage output is limited as well as its playstyle (i.e. smart players will know that it will stay together for the most part and can exploit that fact). Basically, you play against it as you would Fateweaver daemons or KFF-battlewagon orks. You don't even need to kill the LR's to beat it...just to immobilize the the main one (with the librarian). Sure he can get off and onto another LR, but that is at least 1 turn wasted and maybe 2. You can also block them off with other vehicles (such as a suicide melta unit in transport). The list will have problems reacting to enemy tactics like a refused flank maneuver or screening units. The list is ok but it lacks flexibility and balance to be a truly competitive army.

 jy2 wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that vehicles can't contest. To do that, you'd actually have to disembark your guys.

I always go 2nd with the list so far. Lets me see where the enemy sets up and lets me maximize time in vehicle.

So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

I think alot of people are bashing this list for alot of reasons that have nothing to do with its effectiveness. I agree that it would be hard for alot of non-tailored lists to beat; but that being said at my FLGS anyway we usually knows what everyone has and when someone comes up with a list like that the rest of us have fun tailoring to beat them..it's all in good fun and understood. And has also been said, there are some lists that would have no issues with it. In other words, it's just like any. other. list.

If the OP's looking for suggestions, the only thing I might recommend for the list is to drop one of the crusaders for a standard LR; as it's been pointed out it's almost impossible to bring all the hurricanes to bear and 2 TL lascannons with POTMS would give you some long ranged firepower and the option to better engage the enemy vehicles/flyers at longer range instead of just ignoring them.

 Tomb King wrote:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I like the idea and I hope it keeps pounding dudes away!

Armies that could be a problem!

1. Necrons - Simply put, that list is almost an auto-win for most decent cron players. Just walk up with a warrior blob or two and eat the list alive. Even with bad cover they will be pouring as many shots on you as you will on them and they can stand back up. Those land raiders will be gone for good when they're gone.

2. Dark Eldar - Again, here's an army that really doesnt shrug a low model count high AV army. The lack of AV12 spam will like a christmas miracle to them! They can pour Dark Lances on your raiders and have the tools to nerf your range called night shields, something that many DE players take now in 6th.

3. Tau - Not as hard to fight as the two above, but they can still kill a land raider with decent ease.

Just played against a dark eldar list that had 3 void raven bombers and several lance weapons including the trueborn lance package. The list actually held up pretty well. I lost my first land raider I believe on turn 3. Though he was vector dancing with his fliers all game and on turn 5 we realized they didnt have vector dancer. It was bottom of five so I just moved over and contested his objective he had and had mine and we called it there. With the change in his fliers constantly having angles on me no telling what the result would of been like as they were the main threat with S9 lance.

What mission was it? Remember that vehicles are never denial units, so I would assume you used bodies. Thats the real issue, your low body count HAS to get out to grab objectives and giving you first turn doesn't effect anyone because your range is miserable. Haywire wyches weren't mentioned either btw, they will rape those crusaders if they need to, which they shouldn't. Really every list should have some way to pop your banner toting tank which is what they should do. I think its a fun list (for you not your opponent) but I don't think it is hard to beat.

Really you have 4 huge tanks that all need to group up and have horrid range restriction and are not a squad so LOS can be an issue. Lets run down the lists you will struggle with:

DE, any tac or comp variety really
Tyranids, again almost any comp build out there will tear you apart
Demons, same as nids
Eldar, no really 3 units of fire dragons still ruins your day lets not even mention vibro canons or the fortuned wraithguard bomb ive seen lately
Necrons, really really obvious counters here the most laughable being a Death ray is guarenteed a money shot
IG, my list still packs 14 melta guns and multiple S10 large blasts, couple that with av 12 saturation + my russes and your screwed
Mostly you have a decent counter to marine armies currently as they are the colprates who have dropped melta for plasma as of late. GK I would say get screwed but I am seeing more and more DK which are actually a great solution for them.
Heck even sisters will have a field day with this list. I think its a cool build but I would be shocked to see this win a tournament baring insane luck with pairings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

And how does that counter his play? Now your shooting has dropped from awesome to subpar AND he has stopped your advance. Hillariously empty drop pods also ruin your day laughable hard and I am seeing more and more DP lists as they are amazing in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, while reading and then typing this thread has exploded!

At the very least I love how the synergies from the new DA codex are stirring great discussions.

The list is hard to break cause of the way meta is going in sixth. People are getting used to vehicles being glanced to death and that +4 inv save really messes things up, especially if we are talking about 4 LRs. Well done for thinking out of the box mate and I think people are bashing your cause your list isn't fun to play against, but that's not the point. No tournament is meant to be full of fun lists, people try and abuse rules.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I like the idea and I hope it keeps pounding dudes away!

Armies that could be a problem!

1. Necrons - Simply put, that list is almost an auto-win for most decent cron players. Just walk up with a warrior blob or two and eat the list alive. Even with bad cover they will be pouring as many shots on you as you will on them and they can stand back up. Those land raiders will be gone for good when they're gone.

2. Dark Eldar - Again, here's an army that really doesnt shrug a low model count high AV army. The lack of AV12 spam will like a christmas miracle to them! They can pour Dark Lances on your raiders and have the tools to nerf your range called night shields, something that many DE players take now in 6th.

3. Tau - Not as hard to fight as the two above, but they can still kill a land raider with decent ease.

Just played against a dark eldar list that had 3 void raven bombers and several lance weapons including the trueborn lance package. The list actually held up pretty well. I lost my first land raider I believe on turn 3. Though he was vector dancing with his fliers all game and on turn 5 we realized they didnt have vector dancer. It was bottom of five so I just moved over and contested his objective he had and had mine and we called it there. With the change in his fliers constantly having angles on me no telling what the result would of been like as they were the main threat with S9 lance.

What mission was it? Remember that vehicles are never denial units, so I would assume you used bodies. Thats the real issue, your low body count HAS to get out to grab objectives and giving you first turn doesn't effect anyone because your range is miserable. Haywire wyches weren't mentioned either btw, they will rape those crusaders if they need to, which they shouldn't. Really every list should have some way to pop your banner toting tank which is what they should do. I think its a fun list (for you not your opponent) but I don't think it is hard to beat.

Really you have 4 huge tanks that all need to group up and have horrid range restriction and are not a squad so LOS can be an issue. Lets run down the lists you will struggle with:

DE, any tac or comp variety really
Tyranids, again almost any comp build out there will tear you apart
Demons, same as nids
Eldar, no really 3 units of fire dragons still ruins your day lets not even mention vibro canons or the fortuned wraithguard bomb ive seen lately
Necrons, really really obvious counters here the most laughable being a Death ray is guarenteed a money shot
IG, my list still packs 14 melta guns and multiple S10 large blasts, couple that with av 12 saturation + my russes and your screwed
Mostly you have a decent counter to marine armies currently as they are the colprates who have dropped melta for plasma as of late. GK I would say get screwed but I am seeing more and more DK which are actually a great solution for them.
Heck even sisters will have a field day with this list. I think its a cool build but I would be shocked to see this win a tournament baring insane luck with pairings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

And how does that counter his play? Now your shooting has dropped from awesome to subpar AND he has stopped your advance. Hillariously empty drop pods also ruin your day laughable hard and I am seeing more and more DP lists as they are amazing in 6th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow, while reading and then typing this thread has exploded!

At the very least I love how the synergies from the new DA codex are stirring great discussions.

The mission was scouring against the dark eldar player and he had no wyches he did the usual warrior spam with blasters. As a dark eldar player myself I have stopped running wyches. With the lingerie save of 6+ and all the snap firing out there they have really dropped in effectiveness. If wyches make it to vehicles then the opposing player seriously misplayed his target priorities.

The space wolves player had 2 drop pods come down near me. I shot them as I moved around them because my multimelta had nothing better to shoot at the time. So not really stopping my shooting/advance unless you have a lot of pods. Otherwise its just giving me something to get a kill point from.

Someone suggested in another thread of dropping the deathwing landraider and deathwing and picking up a Vanilla marines librarian with null zone and a regular landraider with lascannons for that codex. That would certainly stop the daemons argument to a degree.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Your solution is 'I'll kill it'? Of course you will, its expected, but if you aren't moving forward then its a win for your opponent. Especially considering your bolters and MMs are 18" range vs Nightshields, you can 12" flank move to your hearts content. At some point you need to advance to do anything.

I personally think the biggest weakness of the list is the blockiness of it. 4 LandRaiders all staying within 3" of a central one is a huge footprint, and assuming you aren't playing on planet bowling ball, its going to present tactical issues. Even turning to move to the side will be hard without the corners hitting the Landraider next to it. I don't know the quality of players in your local, so I won't make any assumptions, but IMO these are things that need to be thought about seriously before success in a large tournament can be achieved. 'I'll kill it' and stating weapon stats aren't enough in a competitive setting.

I'm not bashing the list or you, I'm just trying to help with some scenarios that you will come across down the line. Looking for things that will cause complications is a far better approach than assuming you'll steamroll everyone because its the lists destiny.

I play DE also and 5 wyches in a venom are amazing AT for their cost. I bring two of these units in most lists. You disembark, toss a HW nade, theres one hp and then assault and strip 2-3 more, thats insanely effective for the cost and it is not hard to get to your brick with.

Remember because of NS all your weapons are basically 18" meaning I can send one of these units down either of your flanks and hang just outside 18" meaning in order for you to engage one with your guns you HAVE to move toward them. The LR's gun mountings actually suck in this scenario and if you want to get those weapons in the middle of your hull in range you need to shift. Keep in mind there is one of these on either flank so you literally have to split up or lose a tank. If you split then you lose your save on some or one tank making its easy to shoot down.

Also, 3 voidravens is actually not as cost effective in this match up as 3 ravagers. 3 ravagers are cheaper, shoot you from turn one on and have 3 more shots per turn. I would like to see your opponents list if you can nab it actually.

also realized this morning as a side note that the new FAQ for shooting really REALLY hurts your list. You can only kill up to your max weapon range for the unit. In your case 24 across the board, this means that even against horde orks you can be countered, as I can run columns of orks instead of rows and you can only kill the first few. Late game you will cause more damage but if it takes three turns to start really chipping away ork mobs you are in a bad position.

 Clang wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

Your meta sucks and is full of BADS if that is your experience in 40K. If I ran into this list in my meta and it smashed our best dudes, we would be like "Hell Ya! Let's get to work boys we gotta champ to SMASH!" And every week we would try something new praying he brings the same list, because we would have fun drinkin beer and rollin dice against it!

So please don't try to put this bro down for coming up with a flavor of cheese that is so unique, its literally semi-raging almost everyone posting in this thread, if reading the responses is any indicator of subtle yet obvious hatred for the list.

@Beefcakesoup

It's not unique and it's not really cheese. It is a rock list that's solid against some aspects of the game and I could see it dominating a local scene. It's also boring as hell to play against.

Let's face it. Most 40k players aren't adaptive. First it costs money but more importantly it takes significant time to paint and address list issues. Something that makes an event unfun for even 4 people out of 16 is bad. It could reduce you're next attendance by 25%. This doesn't matter in this instance as TK isn't going to be running it locally if at all but I wouldn't be so quick to call people "bads".

I personally win a lot. My lists wouldn't have a problem with this. Most of my regular local top seeds wouldn't have a problem with it. However I build my lists, especially locally, with the intent of not just hammer smashing my opponents. I want their to be events to go to, not drive people out of the hobby.

Ours is a social game.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:

 Clang wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

Your meta sucks and is full of BADS if that is your experience in 40K. If I ran into this list in my meta and it smashed our best dudes, we would be like "Hell Ya! Let's get to work boys we gotta champ to SMASH!" And every week we would try something new praying he brings the same list, because we would have fun drinkin beer and rollin dice against it!

So please don't try to put this bro down for coming up with a flavor of cheese that is so unique, its literally semi-raging almost everyone posting in this thread, if reading the responses is any indicator of subtle yet obvious hatred for the list.

I think you are actually over reacting a bit here. This is the tactics forum so by far the majority of posts here have been to proof the list. It really is not an original idea either as by day two I had already heard people proofing a crusader with shield and dakka banner inside, the difference is those lists were using more green marines and an aegis and other supporting units to go on the offensive which I think is much more sound. I still don't understand having the DW and 4th LR in his list as it is not possible to keep all 4 within the 3" shield or 6" dakka buff without sacrificing one tanks LOS. I would like his list much more if all he did was drop those 2 very expensive items for more bodies.

Agreed. I love winning. At a tournament game I'm even more keen to win than ever. But I want the list to be fun to play -- preferably every game -- and that means it has a variety of ways of winning (and a variety of ways of being beaten too).

Id look out for salamanders with null zone. With the rerolls to hit for melta your likely to see double the number of melta weapons. Dev squads full of them behind ADLs + land speeders & or attack bikes with them. There's also the obligatory sternpod squad. TH/SS terms are also quite capable in a salamanders list of finishing off a LR. Then there's the libby striping away 50% your invul saves. How common this list is your local idk, but its common in these parts.

Otherwise id say pretty good. It'll thump hordes for sure.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Tomb King, where in DA dex can LR's take MM pintle mounted?

MarkyMark wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Tomb King, where in DA dex can LR's take MM pintle mounted?

PG. 104 under options for the crusader.

I offered a scale up list of the same thing in the army list thread. Where I actually dropped the 4th land raider for more troops and/or more anti-mech/fliers. In addition, someone suggested taking a normal vanilla land raider and a libby for null zone to help against daemon opponents and give me that longer range while still getting the 4+ invul. I think the sweet spot is 3 LR crusaders and some supporting cast. However, running 4 is fun in the aspect that the only things that can hurt you need to come through AV14 to do it.

I love to play against a list that is both out of the norm and challenging. I honestly dont mind when someone shows up with a crazy/wonky list that throws the meta asunder. It helps me as a player to learn how to beat that list with what I got or perhaps make an adjustment to my TAC list.

As for the two witches one on either side the best strategy for that would be to take all 4 land raiders to one side and make sure that one dies. If I was certain I could not maintain my 4+ while shooting at both.

 Tomb King wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
So, assuming you are keeping the Landraiders in formation to maintain the invuln; what do you do when a fast cheap vehicle or squadron parks in front of your formation on turn 1? Landspeeders, Piranha, empty Venoms or Droppods... I used to do this all the time in 5th to dramatically slow down mech armies to give Broadsides or Lances the time to do their work. Haven't needed it much lately with tanks easier to drop, but the tools are still there in many TAC lists.

You can't Ram them out of the way. Sure you can shoot them but that costs a turn of movement. Moving around them would cost the invuln for some of the LRs by breaking formation. Will it cost the opponent a few light vehicles, ya, but IMO most players would consider it a bargain to either buy more time to shoot them or scatter them away from the invuln generator.

I dunno, just throwin stuff out there to think about.

I will gladly kill the venoms or land speeders. As for moving. I can maintain formation and move 12" with all vehicles to one flank if need be. Can still fire 24 TL snap shoot bolters and POTMS one of them if desired but would probably POTMS the MM.

Tomb King, where in DA dex can LR's take MM pintle mounted?

PG.

Thats where it is!, I was looking for this last week but was looking under the vehicle options table and did not see the option there for MM's!, cheers TK.

I do own 5 LR's and last night pulled apart a unfinished god hammer one and luckly had a redeemer and crusader sprue spare so I now have another crusader pattern, I do not think I have used LR's in a normal list yet (bar mini tourny last week using tac spam banner and LR crusader with the new dex) so will be able to finally get some use out of these.

I love this list.

I love that it would immediately make someone's jaw drop seeing it across the table, I love that it's totally a go-big-or-go-home type of list, and I love that if I ever see a list like that in my local scene, my Necrons will regularly table it (mechanized armies with a low model count is basically what Necrons eat for lunch).

Aside from the last bit, well done. I love seeing oddball lists, and even without my Necrons, I would have a blast playing against something like this.

I wouldn't wince at that list. Without any modifications, My guard should be able to devestate it at 1850pts. The raiders themselves fall prey to melta's and a manticore. Should I struggle, I can call on lascannons and demolisher cannons. Plus you have very few scoring units. If I wipe one out and hold all the objectives, even if you contest, you'll not win. You also have a lack of firepower for the point limit IMHO. It's a deathstar style list and if you put all your eggs in one basket, your opponants gonna blow it up.

I think people are seriously underestimating this list.

Necrons have been brought up as a counter. The idea that you will easily rip off 4 hull points with Gauss weaponry is a joke. On average, it will take 72 shots of Gauss in order to achieve the 8 glancing hits (remember, on average the 4++ will save half).

Scarabs are a huge threat, but not everyone runs them. Doomscythes are as well, but you get a single shot that has a 33% chance of penetrating and a 50% chance of getting through the 4++. Keep in mind you likely get rougly three passes per Doomscythe.

Other armies that have been brought up, such as Dark Eldar, show how out of touch many players are with the competitive scene. Dark lance spam is dead. It has been for some time.

I'm not saying this list is auto win. It isn't. I'm not saying that it isn't a rock. It certainly is. However, the average TAC list is going to struggle a bit if they try to take this head on.

 JGrand wrote:
I think people are seriously underestimating this list.

Necrons have been brought up as a counter. The idea that you will easily rip off 4 hull points with Gauss weaponry is a joke. On average, it will take 72 shots of Gauss in order to achieve the 8 glancing hits (remember, on average the 4++ will save half).

Scarabs are a huge threat, but not everyone runs them. Doomscythes are as well, but you get a single shot that has a 33% chance of penetrating and a 50% chance of getting through the 4++. Keep in mind you likely get rougly three passes per Doomscythe.

Other armies that have been brought up, such as Dark Eldar, show how out of touch many players are with the competitive scene. Dark lance spam is dead. It has been for some time.

I'm not saying this list is auto win. It isn't. I'm not saying that it isn't a rock. It certainly is. However, the average TAC list is going to struggle a bit if they try to take this head on.

I disagree. A well balance list should be fielding around 5-8 scoring units at this points level. On that alone, the lack of troops in this list is what made raider spam suck in previous editions. I would agree that some competitive lists don't account for this many AV14 vehicles but most would be able to take the victory from objective capturing. Seconded to that, quite a few armies now field enough heavy but cheap guns to ruin a raider spammers day. It's nothing new, people know how to deal with it and it's a big risk because each raider lost see's you losing the possibility of capturing a precious objective.

With the number of Wraiths, Warscythes, scarabs, Harbingers of the Storm, and Gauss Weapons that may be found in many competitive Necron list I'm a little surprised at someone trying to downplay them as a counter to this list.

Like others have said, you only have 2 scoring units, If you go up against a list with artillery, you will be hard pressed to cap an objective.

I for one use a FoR, all i would need to do is set it in the back corner and wait for you to unload your squad and just rail them with a krakstrom missile, large blase ordinance. Or a list with drop pod stern guards will rip you apart.

lizardwolf19 wrote:
I would think that DE would be able to kite your list really well, as some had mentioned before. Even a DE TAC list has fast lances in it somewhere, which could easily zoom around you stripping hull points and getting the occasional pen while staying out of your 24" range. That's your biggest hang up I think.

lances do twice as many pens (33%) as glances(16%) to anything with AV greater than 11.

Haywire grenades also wreck vehicles now. A min squad of wyches(60 points) averages 3.33 hull points.

Even with a 4++ some of those will get through.

 Monster Rain wrote:
With the number of Wraiths, Warscythes, scarabs, Harbingers of the Storm, and Gauss Weapons that may be found in many competitive Necron list I'm a little surprised at someone trying to downplay them as a counter to this list.

My competitive air crons list has 4x5 warriors, 5 to 6 wraiths and a destroyer lord with a scythe. That is all that I have in my army that can harm armor 14. If the warriors get out there is a good probability they get shot to death. So if my landraider spam list went up against my necron TAC I would be very hard pressed to bring the raiders down. The destroyer lord would have to earn his keep. That or play keep away until the last turn and hope I can grab the objectives.

Theoryhammer is profoundly stupid, but I think a "competitive" Cron list without Harbingers of the Storm is somewhat... unorthodox these days.

JGrand wrote:I think people are seriously underestimating this list.

Necrons have been brought up as a counter. The idea that you will easily rip off 4 hull points with Gauss weaponry is a joke. On average, it will take 72 shots of Gauss in order to achieve the 8 glancing hits (remember, on average the 4++ will save half).

Scarabs are a huge threat, but not everyone runs them. Doomscythes are as well, but you get a single shot that has a 33% chance of penetrating and a 50% chance of getting through the 4++. Keep in mind you likely get rougly three passes per Doomscythe.

Other armies that have been brought up, such as Dark Eldar, show how out of touch many players are with the competitive scene. Dark lance spam is dead. It has been for some time.

I'm not saying this list is auto win. It isn't. I'm not saying that it isn't a rock. It certainly is. However, the average TAC list is going to struggle a bit if they try to take this head on.

I agree that overall people are underestimating this list. But the Necron counters are not.

Yes, each Doomscythe will only get a single shot with a 33% chance of penetrating. But in order to keep the LRs within the bubble, they must be in a tight formation, and that means each Doomscythe will get at least 2, sometimes 3 LRs under the line for the Death Ray. 33% chance of pen with three chances per pass does not bode well for the DA.

72 Gauss shots is very easy to accomplish in any Silver Tide or Warrior-centric list.

And you forgot to mention the Stormteks (which almost everyone takes), that basically looks at this list and laughs his metal ass off.

...but you definitely have a point about the DE. I think this list would absolutely wreck most DE lists.

 azazel the cat wrote:
I agree that overall people are underestimating this list. But the Necron counters are not.

I agree only partially. Some counters, like Doom Scythes are hard, like you said. But others aren't nearly as good as they sound at first.

 azazel the cat wrote:
72 Gauss shots is very easy to accomplish in any Silver Tide or Warrior-centric list.

Not actually that easy. You're forgetting that you need those 72 gauss shots outside rapid fire range, simply because when you come to within 24", you're gonna lose 20-30 Warriors per turn. So personally I'd say warrior list s going to lose badly.

 azazel the cat wrote:
And you forgot to mention the Stormteks (which almost everyone takes), that basically looks at this list and laughs his metal ass off.

Depends. Most lists have only 2-4 Stormteks and Stormteks have only 12" range, and getting within that range requires transport. And while standard MSU in Night Scythes makes putting them within range easy, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose those units after killing 1-2 LR's.

My friend is running a Tau-ork combo that I think will make mincemeat out of this list. I actually have an urge to try out a DA LR-spam list against his army just to see how badly I may or may not get smoked. Hmmmm....perhaps a future battle report? We'll see.

Anyways, his list goes something like this:

Shas'el
Biker Warboss

Nob biker unit

6x Fire Warriors
5x20 kroots
2x30 orks

3x3 broadsides
Bastion

 jy2 wrote:
My friend is running a Tau-ork combo that I think will make mincemeat out of this list. I actually have an urge to try out a DA LR-spam list against his army just to see how badly I may or may not get smoked. Hmmmm....perhaps a future battle report? We'll see.

Anyways, his list goes something like this:

Shas'el
Biker Warboss

Nob biker unit

6x Fire Warriors
5x20 kroots
2x30 orks

3x3 broadsides
Bastion

Well if you take it as is make sure you dakka the crap out of those bikes. They should go down to weight of fire. I hate to say it but some of these builds are really gonna come down to mission. Also depending where he places his broadsides you might deep strike the terminators to either charge them or use their TL Storm bolter to bring something down. Hiding behind a bastion sounds like a good time. The broadsides you can kill or just try and ignore them and kill everything else. It will be hard to tackle 9 TL railguns.

Luide wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
And you forgot to mention the Stormteks (which almost everyone takes), that basically looks at this list and laughs his metal ass off.

Depends. Most lists have only 2-4 Stormteks and Stormteks have only 12" range, and getting within that range requires transport. And while standard MSU in Night Scythes makes putting them within range easy, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose those units after killing 1-2 LR's.

You're absolutely right. However, I doubt any Necron player would weep at the though ot trading the life of their Stormtek to destroy a Land Raider. Hell, a 25-point model in exchange for a 250-point vehicle? I'll make that trade. I'll make that trade all day long.

I struggle to think of an easier way for a model to make its points back tenfold.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Luide wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
And you forgot to mention the Stormteks (which almost everyone takes), that basically looks at this list and laughs his metal ass off.

Depends. Most lists have only 2-4 Stormteks and Stormteks have only 12" range, and getting within that range requires transport. And while standard MSU in Night Scythes makes putting them within range easy, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose those units after killing 1-2 LR's.

You're absolutely right. However, I doubt any Necron player would weep at the though ot trading the life of their Stormtek to destroy a Land Raider. Hell, a 25-point model in exchange for a 250-point vehicle? I'll make that trade. I'll make that trade all day long.

I struggle to think of an easier way for a model to make its points back tenfold.

Well, because of 4++ single Stormtek will not cut it. You eed on average 2 Stormteks+10 warriors to kill the LR because of the 4++, so we're closer to trading 180 points for 250. Still ok trade, main issue I see is that in case, Necron player must exchange Scoring units for non-scoring ones. And that Necron list probably won't have more than 4 of those MSU Night Scythe units in his army, making it foolish to use all of them for this purpose in most missions. Now, sacrificing 2 to get rid of that lynchpin LR carrying the 4++ is probably a good idea still.

But I have to admit that my current GK army would really, really struggle with this LR Spam. I have only 2 DK's (w/o teleporters) that can really handle something like this. Though you can trivially make GK army that will tear this army to shreds: Coteaz, 6x henchmen squads with 8 psykers each. Less than 500 points (600 if you count Coteaz, which I wouldn't) gives GK player 6 S10 AP1 large blasts with 36" range. Now, that army won't be too hot against anything else, but it will work in this case. Even though though he will probably lose half of his psykers to perils...

 azazel the cat wrote:

Luide wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
And you forgot to mention the Stormteks (which almost everyone takes), that basically looks at this list and laughs his metal ass off.

Depends. Most lists have only 2-4 Stormteks and Stormteks have only 12" range, and getting within that range requires transport. And while standard MSU in Night Scythes makes putting them within range easy, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose those units after killing 1-2 LR's.

You're absolutely right. However, I doubt any Necron player would weep at the though ot trading the life of their Stormtek to destroy a Land Raider. Hell, a 25-point model in exchange for a 250-point vehicle? I'll make that trade. I'll make that trade all day long.

I struggle to think of an easier way for a model to make its points back tenfold.

Plus the stormtek is with a squad of warriors. So your trading the stormtek plus one of the few scoring squads necrons usually have.

I played another game last night with the list vs a space wolves army. 5 objectives is hard but I had the side with the most objectives on it which helped mitigate that. Game ended DA 8VP to SW 3VP. I am gonna post vassal pictures of the game in the other thread in a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a link again to the original army list thread. I posted a basic overview of the game against the last opponent.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/502018.page

Now that I think about it, nids will probably be your greatest threat. MC's charging vehicles isnt good for anyone regardless of av, and your list doesnt have enough high strength weapons to bring them down before they charge you which means it will get ugly really fast. I dont even play nids so im not being biase or anything, its just an observation that you may want to take into account.

flaming tadpole wrote:
Now that I think about it, nids will probably be your greatest threat. MC's charging vehicles isnt good for anyone regardless of av, and your list doesnt have enough high strength weapons to bring them down before they charge you which means it will get ugly really fast. I dont even play nids so im not being biase or anything, its just an observation that you may want to take into account.

I could be wrong here but I'm pretty sure those TH/SS Terminators can deal with whatever Nid HQ makes it to the LR. If not, replace with DWK for auto-kill Mr. Tervigon with the smite attack. If they just held tacticals, yeah, you are right nids would make things quite ugly for them once they got in range.

The list just help up against a foot guard army hiding behind an aegis with a manticore and a vanquisher in support. The list was annoying to bring down. I actually assaulted with my tactical marines lol.

 Ministry wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
Now that I think about it, nids will probably be your greatest threat. MC's charging vehicles isnt good for anyone regardless of av, and your list doesnt have enough high strength weapons to bring them down before they charge you which means it will get ugly really fast. I dont even play nids so im not being biase or anything, its just an observation that you may want to take into account.

I could be wrong here but I'm pretty sure those TH/SS Terminators can deal with whatever Nid HQ makes it to the LR. If not, replace with DWK for auto-kill Mr. Tervigon with the smite attack. If they just held tacticals, yeah, you are right nids would make things quite ugly for them once they got in range.

Someone mentioned taking the deathwing knights instead of the the deathwing terminators. The knights are 15pts more base but come with storm shields and can use smite to get S10 for a turn against mc's. They could kill a trygon in one phase of combat.

I don't know about the standard strategy of driving it forward type of landraider spam, but if we want to, we can have the toughest backrow landraiders in the game.

Take a techmarine, bolster a ruin, then put the techmarine inside the landraider. 3+ cover, can fix damage. and if deathwing you reroll damaging results that are bad (aka, anything that kills the landraider)

 scuddman wrote:
I don't know about the standard strategy of driving it forward type of landraider spam, but if we want to, we can have the toughest backrow landraiders in the game.

Take a techmarine, bolster a ruin, then put the techmarine inside the landraider. 3+ cover, can fix damage. and if deathwing you reroll damaging results that are bad (aka, anything that kills the landraider)

The deathwing vehicle is a blessing and a curse. I had a immobilize result re-roll the other day and it turned into an explodes result. Hell its in that battle report.