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< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Peregrine wrote:

 Che-Vito wrote:
What exactly would your TAC list have to handle that effectively?

Nine Broadsides.

5 chimeras with vets/command squads.

Demolisher spam.

Manticores.

Deep-striking stormies.

That's all in a TAC. I could tailor it even more offensively. Note that competitive guard does not equal spamming vendettas.

Termie squads with chainfists?

I actually wouldn't mind taking the list against daemons. They have to get close. That fixes the range issue. If they manage to bring down a vehicle with flamers then what is stopping everything else from bringing down that vehicle as well. I will have to find me a daemon player to give them a shot at it. Anyone wanna throw me a game on vassal with daemons? No one where I am currently stationed plays them. Just shoot me a PM if anyone would like to see this list in action against a possible build that you think would work. A lot of the list people suggest are just speculations of what should work. However, I have played a few of the suggestions and the results were not even close. The list is tougher then it looks.

the only problem i see in this and would take advantage of is the fact that you cant really split your forces without a huge risk. Thus as your 1 style ball it will be effective with 14 av walls, but also lack range. It will have its down falls, but against the meta with a 4+ invlun you should be right to stomp most armies.

Let's see, competitive builds that I see regularly or expect to on the scene and not mentioned so far:

Ravenwing Armies
Space Wolves with Termies/Lonewolves/Logan led Long Fangs (all pretty common)
Vulkan/Libby SM (with pods)
GK w/3 Dreadknights (preferably Strike Spam but there are other options)
Deathwing Armies
Nurgle Oblit Spam
Ork Greentide (Under perfect conditions you average only 28 GEQ's and you won't have perfect conditions if your opponent isn't "special")

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there are several more that 10 minutes at work couldn't bring to mind

Lately it's been pretty nice playing against armies with multiple Land Raiders, as Dark Eldar that is. Dark Lances aren't even the best tool for the job, HayWyches are.

Throw a unit of Haywire grenades at them and its game over, doesn't really matter if its a Rhino or a LandRaider. Even better, if there's a unit in the Land Raider then turbo boost some reavers to surround the thing so the unit can't emergency disembark when the Wyches throw a grenade then charge in and glance it to a wreck. If the LRs sit back, Lances go to work, if they advance, the Wyches go to work.

Not saying its perfect, DE have problems with their fair share of lists, LandRaider Spam isn't one of them though. Throwing that many points into vehicles that my troops can handle is fine by me.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Let's see, competitive builds that I see regularly or expect to on the scene and not mentioned so far:

Ravenwing Armies
Space Wolves with Termies/Lonewolves/Logan led Long Fangs (all pretty common)
Vulkan/Libby SM (with pods)
GK w/3 Dreadknights (preferably Strike Spam but there are other options)
Deathwing Armies
Nurgle Oblit Spam
Ork Greentide (Under perfect conditions you average only 28 GEQ's and you won't have perfect conditions if your opponent isn't "special")

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there are several more that 10 minutes at work couldn't bring to mind

Honestly not really afraid of ravenwing. 27pts per marine is all I see and weight of dice bring them down. Something my armies usually have plenty of.

Ive only faced logan once in a tournament and I think he is pretty awesome I like the fluff and the rules on him.

A drop pod vulcan list could hurt. If I knew what was coming I would have to castle up in a corner to try and minimize damage there.

The 3 dreadknights would be rough but that is over 700 pts in itself. I would have use the libby's psychic shriek power to help combat them. If a list had 3 dreadknights I would have to wonder what else they have for AV14 besides hoping for rending.

I ran a deathwing against a devastation banner already. Luckily my opponent was not that good of player and I was able to get into his ranks with 2 of 16 terminators and he had no way of winning the game because my one land raider could contest his one objective.

Nurgle oblits would hurt I would expect on average 6 at 1850pts depending the build. The lascannons statistically struggle to bring my land raiders down especially with the 4++ so the oblits would have to close the distance and use MM or melta. The CSM list probably woundnt have that many other options for AV14. Bolters would average around 5 wounds a turn on the nurgle oblits, the assault cannons around 3.5 wounds, and the Multi-metla's around 1.5. All in a vacuum though.

The green tide would be fun to deal with. With bolters only doing around 32 wounds per turn if no cover was present. When the time came I would just have to make sure I got the charge.

A true Ravenwing list, for 1,300, has 12 Meltas and 36 Bikes, and Sammael. You kill, optimally, 8 bikes per turn. And there are still 550pts to spend on other stuff. I wouldn't be worried about 4 LR's in any of the RW lists I'm building.

Remember with Vulkan and a Libby that you're going to rerolling successful Invuls. Meaning you can basically count on a LR per Sternguard squad and depending on how they are equiped the loss of the unit inside too. And these are units good against everything nowadays, expect to see them more once people catch up.

3 DK's are 480pts. That's with the Torrent flamer which any TAC DK should have. I don't need to fly to get you. You have to get close enough to hurt other units. My DK's will just walk up and play face punch. And if you're shooting at them you're not shooting at my infantry. And if you're driving you're losing shots.

With Nurgle oblits you're likely to see them paired with those nasty flamers and screamers though.

Your list is poor for dealing with multiple axis threats. It's a nice brick. But I wouldn't trust it at a larger event. And at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Personal opinion naturally

 Hulksmash wrote:
A true Ravenwing list, for 1,300, has 12 Meltas and 36 Bikes, and Sammael. You kill, optimally, 8 bikes per turn. And there are still 550pts to spend on other stuff. I wouldn't be worried about 4 LR's in any of the RW lists I'm building.

Remember with Vulkan and a Libby that you're going to rerolling successful Invuls. Meaning you can basically count on a LR per Sternguard squad and depending on how they are equiped the loss of the unit inside too. And these are units good against everything nowadays, expect to see them more once people catch up.

3 DK's are 480pts. That's with the Torrent flamer which any TAC DK should have. I don't need to fly to get you. You have to get close enough to hurt other units. My DK's will just walk up and play face punch. And if you're shooting at them you're not shooting at my infantry. And if you're driving you're losing shots.

With Nurgle oblits you're likely to see them paired with those nasty flamers and screamers though.

Your list is poor for dealing with multiple axis threats. It's a nice brick. But I wouldn't trust it at a larger event. And at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Personal opinion naturally

lol would never run this locally. It would auto-win too much to be fun.

The 3DK's i threw in the teleporters because most TAC with the DK include them at least from what I have seen.(my guard hate them)

Ravenwing is 18 wounds a turn if I did not move. 10 from 96TL bolter shots, 5 from AC, and 3 from melta(in a vacumm of course and purely average.

Your numbers are off but only slightly as you don't account for Jink. And against a brick like this army you should never get full shots against a bike list.

Bear in mind everything, outside of the ravenwing,I posted is less than 50% of an 1850 army (most the time less). And bear in mind many people covered other possible builds that I didn't feel like repeating

I would t bring the list in question because it would get laughed off the table by all the flamers and screamers in our local meta.

I'd just like to chime in and say my BA have not bought into the plasma hype. I still mostly run melta. Melta is the king of making stuff dead; all hail the king baby! And they are assault, not rapid fire

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

I sure hope not, or Dark Eldar flickerfields wouldn't do anything.

 Heartless wrote:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

The rules dont cover vehicles and invulnerable saves. It has been discussed at length in the YMDC forum and people generally play invul saves for vehicles because the intent is obvious. Have yet to see anyone argue otherwise in a game to date.

 Tomb King wrote:

 Heartless wrote:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

The rules dont cover vehicles and invulnerable saves. It has been discussed at length in the YMDC forum and people generally play invul saves for vehicles because the intent is obvious. Have yet to see anyone argue otherwise in a game to date.

I would argue this by saying that I very much doubt that it was the intention of the games designer to allow not one but FOUR Land Raiders to get a 3++ for 30pts.

 Heartless wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:

 Heartless wrote:
Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, but RAW your Land Raiders can't use the power generator's 3++ because invulnerable saves can only be taken against wounds, except in the case of Bjorn the Fell-Handed?

The rules dont cover vehicles and invulnerable saves. It has been discussed at length in the YMDC forum and people generally play invul saves for vehicles because the intent is obvious. Have yet to see anyone argue otherwise in a game to date.

I would argue this by saying that I very much doubt that it was the intention of the games designer to allow not one but FOUR Land Raiders to get a 3++ for 30pts.

Its a 4+ invul save for all friend and enemy units with 3". I would say they knew what they were doing it can benefit units assaulting the landraider or staying close. It is expensive for what your bringing and can potentially be in vain if you fail a 4++/

 Tomb King wrote:


Its a 4+ invul save for all friend and enemy units with 3". I would say they knew what they were doing it can benefit units assaulting the landraider or staying close. It is expensive for what your bringing and can potentially be in vain if you fail a 4++/

My mistake, but the point still stands. Your 4 AV 14 all round tanks have a 50% to negate any damage. And whilst it may be "potentially in vain" you could also pass every 4++ to ever try to make. I would also question the use of RAI in an argument as neither of us actually can say for definite what the games designers intended. Thus the need for FAQs.

 Heartless wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:


Its a 4+ invul save for all friend and enemy units with 3". I would say they knew what they were doing it can benefit units assaulting the landraider or staying close. It is expensive for what your bringing and can potentially be in vain if you fail a 4++/

My mistake, but the point still stands. Your 4 AV 14 all round tanks have a 50% to negate any damage. And whilst it may be "potentially in vain" you could also pass every 4++ to ever try to make. I would also question the use of RAI in an argument as neither of us actually can say for definite what the games designers intended. Thus the need for FAQs.

You can take further arguments over to the YMDC forum. I would rather not derail the thread with rules lawyering. The only time an invul save is mentioned in regards to vehicles is PG 5 of the space wolves FAQ that mentions bjorn taking an invul save from a glancing or penetrating hit.

OP, as I mentioned in your army list thread I think your landraider spam is a rock paper scissors army. There are too many common tac lists that could deal with the av14 spam that I don't think this is a GT level tourney winning list. I could see some local metas not being able to handle it though.

It is true that so far the meta has shifted to have more plasma than melta but I don't think that opens the door for a list like this, but time will tell.

Your biggest problems for this list will be necrons because not much in that codex cant destroy vehicles. chaos boys who love their demon princes. Flamers, big tyranids. Dark eldar lance spam if the dice gods are being fickle, as far as haywire grenades I don't see how they would survive to actually assault the vehicles. IG vendetta spam 3 twin linked lascanons are definitely going to put the hurt on anyone.

On the plus side your raiders are av 14 people apparently think that's paper now. Your hurricane bolters+assault cannon fire will clear your path against pretty much anything. And to top it off you have 4 of them. I think this list is very viable in an edition where the band wagon has shifted to plasma. Any blob based army will be gunned down with that banner cheese. Also anyone trying to get into melta range is getting shot to pieces.

This list makes me wish GW didn't give the monolith the nerf bat by taking away jink, so I could spam some av 14

Wouldn't it work better as Blood Angels (who get cheaper raiders) and Dark Angels as Allies?

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Wouldn't it work better as Blood Angels (who get cheaper raiders) and Dark Angels as Allies?

-Matt

The robed guys couldn't embark on the Vampire's rides though. And does the banner effect allies?

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

 Clang wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
...at smaller events it might win but since it'll kill fun it'll hurt the local gaming scene.

Finally, someone mentions the f word. Fun. Isn't that why we play? For any opponent without a bucketload of anti-AV14 weaponry, your army is ZERO fun to play against - they can't hurt your magic invulnerable brick and may as well concede without playing a turn. Some will. Expect to eat your lunch sitting in a corner all by yourself.

Missed the part where the dude said it wasn't for local play?

Honestly, to solve your droppod/daemons problem, bring some GK allies in in a psyammo crusader with a cheap mallus HQ and a strike squad. A full 10 man would be best, so you can combat squad and get two chance at casting warp quake.

One thing to keep in mind is that vehicles can't contest. To do that, you'd actually have to disembark your guys.

Sisters of Battle and Chaos both have invuln saves on their vehicles by default.

I'm pretty sure vehicles can get invulns. Otherwise two whole armies would have their rules completely invalidated.

As for this list, I wouldn't be too worried. I'm used to fighting against leman russes with +4 cover saves, and use them myself. I know how to crack armor.

Your biggest problem I see though would just be getting people off of all the objectives. With my foot guard list, I could just run guardsmen to every objective and just tie you up with a portion of my force. Even if I only knock out one or two of your landraiders, there's no way you'll be able to knock me off all the objectives in time. Especially when some matches have 5-6 objectives or ones placed far away from each other.

EDIT: However, as a guard player, any list that can bring large amounts of AV 14 does make me all tingly inside. I'd love to see this list in action.

I used to run triple and even quadruple-LR's back in my daemonhunter days. I actually used to do very well with them, but I've got to admit, it's somewhat of a hit-or-miss army. It can still win, but it lacks the balance to win consistently against good players with balanced TAC armies (such as what you will most likely find in a GT setting). Its damage output is limited as well as its playstyle (i.e. smart players will know that it will stay together for the most part and can exploit that fact). Basically, you play against it as you would Fateweaver daemons or KFF-battlewagon orks. You don't even need to kill the LR's to beat it...just to immobilize the the main one (with the librarian). Sure he can get off and onto another LR, but that is at least 1 turn wasted and maybe 2. You can also block them off with other vehicles (such as a suicide melta unit in transport). The list will have problems reacting to enemy tactics like a refused flank maneuver or screening units. The list is ok but it lacks flexibility and balance to be a truly competitive army.