Hello there!
Liked the video. In regard to picking an army, I think that it boils down to what 'speaks' to you. Some may well pick armies based on colour schemes they've seen, but I think what makes us choose an army is some inner mind process that just says "these models are perfect to my eyes" and you'll buy them and paint them. I'm surprised that people suggested that lizards are girly simply because of the colours; do they not realize that nearly all of the most dangerous animals in the world have all the brightest colours? To that way of thinking maybe they think you should be playing sisters of battle rather than orks!
Painting comments are generally helpful on dakka, almost certainly encouraging to whoever asks for advice. I'd like to think that they never made the nice comments simply because the poster was a girl, that would be wrong. It is more important that the person who asks for help and advice gets encouragement to continue(male or female), judge the model not the painter.
Well, that's the first time I've actually heard of Lizardmen being called girly. Interestingly, in 40K from what I've heard women seem to most frequently play Tyranids - now, I can't see a single reason that giant bugs would be considered girly, so I support your opinion.
Thanks for the video - it was an interesting insight that seemed to shed light onto stereotypes.
Nice vid, you touch on some interesting points, specifically with regards to how showcase threads are responded to, I could be wrong but it's almost as though we're spoiled by excellence here on Dakka. 99% of the time when a new thread pops up the standard of painting is truly excellent. There are so many phenomenally well painted miniatures shown on this forum in comparison to stuff that's not as good it appears that members may have just become used to really high standards.
But this is probably also why threads showing miniatures painted to a lower standard get a lot of replies, because getting good takes a lot of time and practice and a bit of encouragement goes a long way.
It's good to hear that you recognize how people skew there opinion based on something as insignificant as gender, and also good to hear that you recognize this as a bit silly.
Perhaps people treat girls differently because they're just so uncommon in the hobby. As in "maybe we should be nice to her because she's a girl, because it's not like there's many of them around and we need to maintain all the ones we can get", or something like that.
Also, I too have never heard someone think of lizardmen as girly. The animal angle is strange, because in that line of thinking girls should naturally love snakes, which isn't exactly true (of course people in general don't like snakes very much but you get the idea). I really can't see any of the armies as "girlish" by todays standards. They all brutally clobber one another, and in some cases eat one another, or screw with each other after they die. You've got sisters in 40k, but they're not exactly girly, they're just made up of girls.
In any case, good to see that you've become interested in the hobby, and very good job on the video.
I also thought you were doing something crazy with your hair until I noticed it was a bird painting in the background, lol.
I always thought that Elves (or Eldar for 40k) would be considered the "girly" armies because they aren't all about brute force, or "manliness" if you will. I find that most females I talk to about war hammer find it kind of juvenile, though my girlfriend enjoys helping me paint my models (I've got her working on my Harlequins, as she's a much better painter than me ). It's probably more out of ignorance than anything though. My girlfriend thought that D&D was super lame and nerdy when we first met too, and now she's one of our more enthusiastic players.
In the end I think it's all about the kind of people playing the game. If you were to walk into a game store and see a bunch of greasy, sweaty guys all cackling around a game table, you're not going to want to have anything to do with it, whereas a group of relatively normal people with a grasp on basic hygiene is going to be far less repulsive, and may even encourage people to come have a look at what all the commotion is about.
Also, to discuss the video itself... I like your voice, accent, and general style of speaking; you speak with confidence and clarity that many youtubers seem to be incapable of, making your discussion very nice to listen to, and I didn't once have to rewind to try to figure out what you had just said.
So bravo to you on that I think a video series further discussing what you like about warhammer, your various experiences, etc would be quite nice to have, if you have the time to produce them!
That was extremely refreshing! It's always great to see somebody change Thier mind about something, wether they are male or female. The one thing I have noticed among my female friends is that a lot of them thought the same way, until Thier boyfriends admitted to Thier plastic crack habit. They suddenly became more interested in the hobby itself and although most of them don't play, the vast majority immerse themselves in the fluff and/or enjoy painting the miniatures themselves.
The majority of my female friends do play RPG's with us and a few enjoy the odd game of Magic:The Gathering, but they are far more accepting of the hobby that they had originally dismissed as 'Geeky' because Thier significant others play, as do Thier mates....
I think I've waffled a little bit, but hopefully you guys get the gist of what I'm trying to say!
Aun Tier wrote: now, I can't see a single reason that giant bugs would be considered girly, so I support your opinion.
And the girls in our town play Tyranids, Lizardmen and Dark Elves ... and like painting them most ... in bright colours (except the Dark Emo Elves of course) In our last tornament, the only girl played Tyranids, well painted Tyranids. And she played because of her boyfriend.
And the one female member of the WD team started Lizardmen ... painting some at least, so there seems to be a bias.
And would a boy or man have done that to his Land Raider?
... well, because you have boobs, and speak in a cute Swedish accent. I mean...
So, a few other questions along the lines of the podcast.
Firstly, most places on the internet (including dakka) are gender neutral. Do you feel that you are treated differently than if people knew you were a woman? Do you feel that people treat you differently once they know?
Do you feel that you are more attracted to men who are also 40k gamers, or are the neckbeards and stench too great to overcome? I came from a background as a video gamer in my teens, and when I met my woman, the only one she had played was solitaire. After we got married, I slowly started to introduce her. Is 40k something you look for, or is it something you think you can wean a future beau onto?
Does it bother you that people assume that women are naturally good painters? Do you ever feel that you get feedback on your painting that is dishonest because of your gender?
At my FLGS, people swear all the time (your rolled NINE 5+ FNP saves!?! Well, here's what I have to say about that...). Do you think that people in gaming stores watch their language around you, in a way they might not if you weren't?
Ailaros wrote: Do you feel that you are treated differently than if people knew you were a woman?
While the other questions I dunno if I can give a good answer for (I swear all the time online even if I fastidiously avoid it IRL, for example), this one I certainly can give an answer to: I KNOW that I am often treated differently based on my perceived gender, from prior experiences using a gender-neutral name and not actually declaring my gender. People default to assume I'm a man unless I or my username said otherwise. Sometimes they assume that I am anyway, in MMOs and other video games, although this is becoming less true as the years go on.
The difference in treatment is often astounding, and it is NOT, despite what is claimed by certain posters, only positive.
Aun Tier wrote: Interestingly, in 40K from what I've heard women seem to most frequently play Tyranids - now, I can't see a single reason that giant bugs would be considered girly, so I support your opinion.
When I was trying to get back into 40k, I was pretty much settled on Tyranids, though I thought I'd be charitable and ask my fiancees input. We walked into the store (something she refuses to do anymore), and looked in the display case. She said 'Those are pretty' while pointing at Tyranids. While I was happy she picked the army I'd settled on, the fact she thought they were pretty was beyond me. Giant dinosaur space bugs... This from the person who screamed in fright when she saw a giant Huntsman on our wall.
Ailaros wrote: Do you feel that you are treated differently than if people knew you were a woman?
While the other questions I dunno if I can give a good answer for (I swear all the time online even if I fastidiously avoid it IRL, for example), this one I certainly can give an answer to: I KNOW that I am often treated differently based on my perceived gender, from prior experiences using a gender-neutral name and not actually declaring my gender. People default to assume I'm a man unless I or my username said otherwise. Sometimes they assume that I am anyway, in MMOs and other video games, although this is becoming less true as the years go on.
The difference in treatment is often astounding, and it is NOT, despite what is claimed by certain posters, only positive.
I can second this. People do treat you differently when they think your a girl. If you don't say you are one, then most people will assume your male or faceless. Though it's not like you can tell who is who because no one really wears their gender on there sleeve. You could read a thousand post by some and never be able to tell if they are male, female, or anything else. I did know about melissia for the longest time. (My computer dosen't show avatars for some reason.)
Do people automatically assume that you're a bad player? Like, you know "girls aren't good at strategy games" kind of a thing?
It would be a little difficult to judge, as every 40k player started out not knowing anything once minis hit tabletop, and you can certainly find people who will be a pedantic ass to you without regard to gender.
On a similar note, do you ever get the feeling that people go easy on you or let you win because you're a girl?
Ailaros wrote: Do you feel that you are treated differently than if people knew you were a woman?
While the other questions I dunno if I can give a good answer for (I swear all the time online even if I fastidiously avoid it IRL, for example), this one I certainly can give an answer to: I KNOW that I am often treated differently based on my perceived gender, from prior experiences using a gender-neutral name and not actually declaring my gender. People default to assume I'm a man unless I or my username said otherwise. Sometimes they assume that I am anyway, in MMOs and other video games, although this is becoming less true as the years go on.
The difference in treatment is often astounding, and it is NOT, despite what is claimed by certain posters, only positive.
Well, whenever I venture into a new store, even with figure case in hand, I get the wierdest looks from half the crowd of guys, while the other half look on with stuned "should I ask for a game or a date first?" expressions.
On the other hand, amongst the guys that know me, things tend to get out of hand *really* quickly due to the dreaded "Escalation Game" always being in effect.
Usually it's my friends just trying to mess around and push a button or three, but almost always within minutes of it starting, conversations will go from PG to X-rated! (it is however a great way to weed out potential dates amongst guys who don't know me! )
On-line, people always assume that I'm a guy on forums like Dakka or other gaming sites. Heck, on some forums, even if I put "female" in the gender box on my profile, some still assume I'm a guy?!
Are girls in the hobby really that scary a concept to accept?!
Experiment 626: Actually, some people really DO feel that threatened.
There was thread on this forum a while back which I think was the perfect example-- a man in it said that women shouldn't participate in wargaming and that men should scare women off from wargaming because it was a man's thing and men should be able to enjoy it without the presence of women. It ended up being because he had a bad break-up and was going through a "he-man woman hater" phase, but this kind of person really does exist.
Most people who feel a bit threatened, however, do not react that strongly.
I'd love to have some females to wargame with, if the females in my clan are anything to go by they're pretty chilled out and have much better hygiene.
Ailaros wrote: Though it's not like you can tell who is who because no one really wears their gender on there sleeve. You could read a thousand post by some and never be able to tell if they are male, female, or anything else.
A persons gender is masculine or feminim, there sex is male or female. sorry just one of those things that annoy.
Great video, presented with such confidence, in what in all likely-hood isn'y your first language.
Ailaros wrote: Though it's not like you can tell who is who because no one really wears their gender on there sleeve. You could read a thousand post by some and never be able to tell if they are male, female, or anything else.
A persons gender is masculine or feminim, there sex is male or female. sorry just one of those things that annoy.
Great video, presented with such confidence, in what in all likely-hood isn'y your first language.
Sorry. I'm aware of the distinction. (Gender is kind of a study of mine.) I just worded my post poorly. Most of the time, you can't tell a persons sex by their writing, but it can also be hard to tell their gender too. Or maybe that's just me. Other people may have a easy time.
I can't name a single girl I've ever known who "liked to paint" lol. I am sure they exist, but I can't name them.
So there is that, lol.
Edit: Oh so you seem to be aware of the shameless neckbearded deification guys have for females in the hobby (Which is not exclusive to this particularly nerdy hobby).
Ailaros wrote: Though it's not like you can tell who is who because no one really wears their gender on there sleeve. You could read a thousand post by some and never be able to tell if they are male, female, or anything else.
A persons gender is masculine or feminim, there sex is male or female. sorry just one of those things that annoy.
Great video, presented with such confidence, in what in all likely-hood isn'y your first language.
I'm not clear on what you're getting at here, but ok. Gender and sex are used interchangeably.
As far as the Tyranid/Lizardman thing, those are the two armies my wife likes the best. Interesting, because I wouldn't have pegged it. Eldar or Tau, maybe.. Though Tau is her second choice.
Well tyranids are the most visually different army. Everyone else has the same general shapes. You know guy, guy with big back pack, big box that you claim is a tank. They are also the most earthy fraction.
Women are in fact a hive mind of carnivorous monsters. This is why they identify so quickly with the Tyranid.
My wife actually fully intends to start playing once my daughter is old enough to start with her, but she wants to do fantasy since she is more familiar with that setting. I have like 5 years til this even starts yet I am really looking forward to it.
Which leads to a question for the OP. Do you see more women going to warhammer fantasy as opposed to 40k?
I admit I skimmed a bit through this thread, but one odd theme has stuck out for me: Tyranids are appealing to women? I find that odd, because all of the women I ever met who played WFB and W40K played Orks.
It's funny how the tyranid thing seems to be a pretty universal observation. About half of the women I've seen playing have been nids and the other half have been pretty varied. The only army I have never seen a woman play is SoB.
These types of stereotypes are everywhere though and most people are stupid enough to go along with them. For example, read an article in a baby magazine or something. I have never seen one not referencing a specific baby that uses male pronouns. Babies are always female. Its even worse when I take my sons out anywhere. People don't care that they are wearing blue clothing with trucks and phrases like "tough guy," they just want to tell me how cute "she" is and ask how old "she" is. And for those of you who think this was an isolated incident, this is a weekly occurrance.
As to the elevation of women in 40k to near deity status, I think that most of it is due to lack of normal and positive interaction with females in daily life for the average 40k player than anything else.
Very nice video. Interesting to kind of see the hobby through the eyes of a girl/woman. Funny hearing how you thought it was all kiddy and nerdy, and then you end up standing in front of GW wanting to buy stuff.
I absolutely believe women are treated differently, in gaming (virtual or tabletop) and on the internet. That is why so many women hide their sex to the general populace when they go online.
However, the owner of my FLGS is a woman and there is a female Nid player in the area.
BTW if you've ever seen Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, you've totally got a Ramona Flowers thing going on, if you haven't it's still a pretty cool movie.
On painting, yeah your probably better than me, when my Blood Ravens show up you'll see.
In all seriousness, painting is more about finess and having hands deft enough to steadily paint tiny details with a small brush. This doesn't bode well for me, compounded by the fact that i have unsteady hands, painting is tough for me.
I don't think for a minute that women gamers are anymore special that guys gamers, but the perception that 40k/GW stuff in general is nerdy/manly and no place for a girl would probably keep many main-steam women from pursuing the hobby, which builds the pre-conceived notion that 40k is no place for girls. I applaud you for looking past these false notions and joining the hobby.
Also what army did you pick. I think you covered that, but i must have missed it.
xraytango wrote: To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, "When I became an adult I gave up childish things including the fear of childish things".
Don't be afraid to like the things you like.
"These are games for... The more intelligent sort of girl.". -. H.G. Wells, "Little Wars" the first widely popular and well - known wargaming rules.
BTW if you've ever seen Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, you've totally got a Ramona Flowers thing going on, if you haven't it's still a pretty cool movie.
Thank you for that. Clearly the Empire knows how to properly train its leaders.
ace101 wrote: On painting, yeah your probably better than me, when my Blood Ravens show up you'll see.
In all seriousness, painting is more about finess and having hands deft enough to steadily paint tiny details with a small brush. This doesn't bode well for me, compounded by the fact that i have unsteady hands, painting is tough for me.
I don't think for a minute that women gamers are anymore special that guys gamers, but the perception that 40k/GW stuff in general is nerdy/manly and no place for a girl would probably keep many main-steam women from pursuing the hobby, which builds the pre-conceived notion that 40k is no place for girls. I applaud you for looking past these false notions and joining the hobby.
Also what army did you pick. I think you covered that, but i must have missed it.
So, I hate to be stereotypical here, but I think there might be something to the OP's complaint about women picking brightly-colored armies.
I have known three women, in the flesh, who have played 40k. One of them plays demons (of different god types), one of them played eldar (with one of each of the aspect warriors), and one of them played CSM back in the day (with a unit of berzerkers, and one of noise marines, etc.)
What did all three of them have in common? They looked like a skittles bag had been dumped out on the table when they put their minis down.
It would be interesting to see if women do, in fact, for some reason, prefer bright, high-contrast, high-saturation color schemes. Or, as an ancillary, if women tend to prime white more than men do.
This thread pretty much sums up the stereotypical "holy gak there's a woman here" reaction. Whether it's involuntary/instinctive, or lampshaded (like thecaptain or myself demonstrate) it's hard to have a genuinely "neutral" thread sometimes. On forums most women I've noticed either don't make a big deal about mentioning it (where theyre perceived as just another guy on the forums) or they just stick around so long that they become "one of the guys", and people accept it. Which is how it goes in stores to a degree.
In my area I know of a few women playing 40k. One is the wife of a regular, and plays (wait for it) eldar. She absolutely hates painting, and I think she chose eldar purely for their background. I met another woman at another store who also played eldar, although she seemed relatively new and young (couldnt have been past her teens) so I'm not sure why she got into the hobby or why she picked eldar.
One thing I will point out though is that what you're experiencing is something women experience in any "male" hobby. If I'm in a video game store, and a moderately attractive woman in her 20's comes in through the door, you can see on every man's face "is she here because she plays games, or to get them for her brother/boyfriend/significant other". Awkward moments follow, the few guys who can behave in public feel like grognards and the grognards feel their typical feelings, and the circle of life is complete. It either ends in people getting over it, or in the woman being sufficiently scared off and finding a new store/hobby. Same goes for when I'm in guitar shops in the electric guitar section (you're a chick and you play electric guitar? let me show you the token pink stratocaster we keep on the wall, I'll give you a free lesson) or comic book stores, hiking and sporting outfitters, gun stores, stagehand work, etc. These are considered "masculine" activities, so when a woman walks in, throws down her orks and goes "alright who's up for an 1850 game?" Most guys will feel a bit confused. I will admit I felt it myself a few times when I first got into the hobby, but that was mainly because I hadn't learned there were normal people that were into 40k as well (I really believed the stereotypes, because I was an idiot back then)
It's a sentiment that seems to be gradually wearing away as more and more women get into these hobbies and are open about it, but I have a feeling these awkward situations will continue as long as people consider this a "nerdy" hobby for severly autistic guys with neckbeards and cheeto covered fingers.
Normally I'd say "who cares if she's a girl or a boy it shouldn't effect anything" but since this whole OP is about gender differences in 40k that's all a bit moot....
Ma55ter_fett wrote:I do think there is a relation between boobs and increased praise.
.
Whether people deny or confirm it it is definitely true. The girl in question could be equally if not better than other men in the same situation, but because shes a she and not hideous looking she has way more attention.
Forget her name as it was eons ago, but back when SC2 was new there was a girl streamer that was a model irl. She played in SILVER league so she was a bit below-average, and still had several thousand viewers all the time.
Anyway onto the OP:
I'd have to agree on that guy's comment saying girls are typically better painters than men. I sincerely doubt its the makeup, since makeup rarely involves drybrushing or a wash coat over what you just put on (far as i know anyway). I think its more attention to detail because...ok guys be honest what girl have you been with that NEVER brought up something you did that pissed her off YEARS ago and remember it in detail? lol Personally the little effects of painting is the hard part to me because i keep overlooking most of it. I just painted a Ghazzy for instance and when i was takin pics i noticed i totally forgot to add the chipped paint effect to his legs rofl. The only girl i know that paints (i.e. the only girl i know that even plays) spends easily twice the time i do per model and loves every minute of it. And does better lol.
Hmm. Well, first and foremost, obviously girls/women do get special treatment in male-dominated hobbies, whether it's wargaming, video games, high-end audio or whatever else. Of course, this "special treatment" can be on either end of the spectrum, from overt praise and politeness to hostility and sexist remarks. I do see more of the former type, though. Which, I reckon, is the better option, even if "neutral" would technically be even better. I aim for neutrality, but growing up I came to believe in a sort of "old-fashioned" way where a man should treat women respectfully, so it probably shows in compared to how I behave with men. This sort of behavior wasn't "pushed" on me or anything, but somehow I ended up adopting it anyway despite no real role models for that effect. Egh. Who knows why, and really, who cares
As for girls being better painters. I can't say I have a huge statistical study to back it up, but I do know that back in the day in elementary and high school the case was that on average girls were better at art, whether drawing or painting. Better grades, and better-looking results. Now, perhaps it was just because the girls liked doing it more or whatever, but that was the end result regardless. Kind of the same with fiction writing assignments, as well. Might very well be different elsewhere though.
Locally we don't really have women doing wargaming that I know of, except for one that I think does play Mordheim at least. But then, this is a small place (~50k population) and by my best estimate we only have probably at most 20-25 40k players, and fewer even semi-active ones. Our local 4-tournament series had 10, 15, 11 and 11 players, with 15 unique invididuals participating. On top of these I only really know a couple of others that play, but I assume there's some that are less active or play in a place other than the LGS that I don't know, after all I'm still relatively new to the 40k scene myself, having started in the summer. In any case, my list of known 40k players includes no women. The girlfriends of most of the players seem supportive of the hobby when they drop by the store, but don't appear to "partake" in it themselves. Not having any women wargamers means I can't from experience comment on their army choices, but I wouldn't be surprised if the criteria for choosing one would be different from men's (mine's simply rule of cool, though coolness is of course up to the "beholder"). But whether or not that criteria is what men assume it to be is another thing entirely
It's also hard to say whether women are more likely to view wargaming and other such hobbies as juvenile/childish/whatever than men - my guess is that it's likely, but certainly there's no shortage of men that view it as such, as well. I don't really care much, as most things can be considered juvenile. Like hanging around in bars every weekend, or endlessly pimping cars. Pfft. Or even chasing a leather ball around a grass field, ie football (or soccer, for those on the other side of the ocean), or chasing the puck in a hockey rink. Which is not to say that I mind if someone likes tuning cars, and I like playing football - not that I ever get the chance anymore - but it's funny that some things are somehow more grown-up when, when you get right down to it, they are just as "childish". In the end anyone that doesn't "accept" my hobbies such as this can take a hike for all I care, woman or not You don't have to have the same hobby, but start dissing it as childish or whatever based on an arbitrary viewpoint, and you're out.
On that note, as we all probably know video games are quite mainstream these days, even among women. There's a lot of female video game buyers at the LGS, for example, while going back about 12 years I can't recall much in the way of any of the girls at our high school being gamers of basically any degree. However I feel wargaming is something that's not likely to reach that status at any point. Whether that's good or bad, who's to say. I think I'm more inclined towards good than bad, though, as with video games I feel the impact of a more widespread appeal of the medium has on average led to the deteoration in the innovativeness and increased, even overt simplification of the games.
It's kind of funny but my wife plays this as well and shares some of the same opinions as the OP. She also loves her orks.
I asked her the reasons she plays is #1 cause I play lol
#2 the bright colors are very attractive which is why she likes orks, chaos daemons, and CSM. Painted to be very bright colors and it's very kind on the eyes. Incidentially I'm starting sisters and she does like the order of the sacred rose color scheme and we're stripping some old ebay models right now to paint up the new scheme.
#3 She doesn't like my grey colored krieg regiment and not a big fan of boxy tanks like the storm raven/land raider/rhinos/LR's. Just aren't sleek enough. On the flip side, she also doesn't like Tau cause they don't look that good either but it's personal preferance as she puts it "needs more wings" whatever that means.
#4 She likes the orks for the simple stragety and the fact she gets to roll some 60 dice and act out death scenes with typical orky hilarity. She's not really interested in the list building side of things as she's not competitive at all or so she claims (but play a few rounds of spades with her and you'll see that she's just as competitive and personally I feel that she's just not as sure of the rules and how to abuse said rules that turns her off the competitive scene)
#5 She doesn't like the nids despite the eariler posts in this thread as she doesn't really understand their motivation and find them kind of bland. The models despite having flashy colors also doesn't really suit her asthetically so no, not all girls like the tentacles. Sorry guys.
Orks rule. I picked them for the same reason: they look awesome. I didnt even know the basics of the game before i already bought a good chunk of them and assembled them illegally rofl (double slugga POWA!!)
So, a few other questions along the lines of the podcast.
Firstly, most places on the internet (including dakka) are gender neutral. Do you feel that you are treated differently than if people knew you were a woman? Do you feel that people treat you differently once they know?
Do you feel that you are more attracted to men who are also 40k gamers, or are the neckbeards and stench too great to overcome? I came from a background as a video gamer in my teens, and when I met my woman, the only one she had played was solitaire. After we got married, I slowly started to introduce her. Is 40k something you look for, or is it something you think you can wean a future beau onto?
Does it bother you that people assume that women are naturally good painters? Do you ever feel that you get feedback on your painting that is dishonest because of your gender?
At my FLGS, people swear all the time (your rolled NINE 5+ FNP saves!?! Well, here's what I have to say about that...). Do you think that people in gaming stores watch their language around you, in a way they might not if you weren't?
Yes I do feel I'm treated differently, i.e. I get more responses to painting threads than guys painting with the same standard. And to be perfectly honest, If I was a bloke posting this video I don't think there would have been this many responses regarding gender differences in the hobby.
Neckbeards, stench and no hygiene is not that attractive no xD However most of the guys I have met and played games with are nothing like that, they dress nicely and are very polite and smell nice so yepp, I am definitely attracted to them. Also the lack of hygiene and all that I have usually only encountered in very specific types of people, they are usually very, well obsessive, with their hobby and that type of person I don't enjoy hanging out with in the first place.
It bothers me a bit - but just because I think it's wrong. No, no dishonest comments so far, I usually ask for feedback seeing as I want to improve but then again I do, usually get more praise then a bloke. If it's because they want to be nice and keep me in the hobby or just to get into my pants I don't know yet
As for the language...in stores I don't know cause I have never played in a store, sometimes it quiets down but then again in that store there are actually two girls on the staff so I think they're quite used to "us". When I play a game against someone I haven't met or played against before and they blurt out stuff like bitch they usually become quite pale and says "oh, no offense" and stuff like that. I always laugh at them because honestly I can be quite rude myself, specially if I'm loosing xD
GimbleMuggernaught wrote: I find that most females I talk to about war hammer find it kind of juvenile
These very same people tend to watch jersey shore and all the other trash they put on tv these days. Juvenile and a waste of time indeed.
I second that, never really understood the jersey shore thing xD However I also thinks it boils down to what most girls are raised to think (usually looking at the popular girls in school and how they treat nerdy guys). And I also think is sticks until we are proven wrong - like me When I try to explain to other girls for that matter what I do in my spare time they usually look at me funnily and they have the very same look I have when I looked into those windows to the GW store as if they're thinking: OMG, you're such a nerd! And then they go about their business talking about the new line of handbags from D&G or what not which I find juvenile
Ailaros wrote: Do you feel that you are treated differently than if people knew you were a woman?
While the other questions I dunno if I can give a good answer for (I swear all the time online even if I fastidiously avoid it IRL, for example), this one I certainly can give an answer to: I KNOW that I am often treated differently based on my perceived gender, from prior experiences using a gender-neutral name and not actually declaring my gender. People default to assume I'm a man unless I or my username said otherwise. Sometimes they assume that I am anyway, in MMOs and other video games, although this is becoming less true as the years go on.
The difference in treatment is often astounding, and it is NOT, despite what is claimed by certain posters, only positive.
For the MMO part: Yes, always assumed to be male: Once I was raiding in Wow and it was a 25man pug and I only knew like two of them. We were all on Vent and some bloke asked me to take care of some adds and I said on Vent: sure. Then it went all silent and suddenly it sounded something like the seagulls in Finding Nemo; You're girl, Is she a girls, girl, girl, can I have your pic, pic for some gold please etc. Took a while to actually get on with the raid xD That wasn't the first time either and sometimes guys would become just a liiittle to creepy...
I haven't experienced that on forums or when playing Warahmmer so far, guys have usually just been very polite and no freaky or creepy suggestions in my emails either so, so far so good. ^^
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: Also, to discuss the video itself... I like your voice, accent, and general style of speaking; you speak with confidence and clarity that many youtubers seem to be incapable of, making your discussion very nice to listen to, and I didn't once have to rewind to try to figure out what you had just said.
So bravo to you on that I think a video series further discussing what you like about warhammer, your various experiences, etc would be quite nice to have, if you have the time to produce them!
Thanks Yes, I'll try to make those kinds if videos as well
Do people automatically assume that you're a bad player? Like, you know "girls aren't good at strategy games" kind of a thing?
It would be a little difficult to judge, as every 40k player started out not knowing anything once minis hit tabletop, and you can certainly find people who will be a pedantic ass to you without regard to gender.
On a similar note, do you ever get the feeling that people go easy on you or let you win because you're a girl?
Nope, so far I have been expected to know just as much - which is good! ^^
In the beginning the guys I regularly play with let me win or made nice and easy to beat lists so that I would like the hobby - though that's not because I'm a girl, other dudes they have introduced to the hobby are treated the exact same way. Now they crush me whenever they get a chance though
Dannyevilguy wrote: Women are in fact a hive mind of carnivorous monsters. This is why they identify so quickly with the Tyranid.
My wife actually fully intends to start playing once my daughter is old enough to start with her, but she wants to do fantasy since she is more familiar with that setting. I have like 5 years til this even starts yet I am really looking forward to it.
Which leads to a question for the OP. Do you see more women going to warhammer fantasy as opposed to 40k?
I am a girl, who does mainly LOTR but also do 40k. What I've found is that Dutch people mainly seem to do fantasy and in England I am used to 40k players.
The females that I meet usually strictly devote themselves to painting, which is where I got a bit sexist as well that females like painting better.
As for myself I don't know what I like better, I mean I love painting, but there is a big part in collecting as well. I like tactics and power play so I guess
it's not far off from what most guys in my surroundings do too. Then again I might just have picked this view of the hobby because of the guys around me.
I do relate to the OP that when growing up I looked a bit down on hobbyists. For me the only reason for that was jealousy. I'm glad I feel more freedom now to do
whatever I want because I'm my own person As for armies, I play Dark Angels and have some Eldar squads.
I never heard of lizardmen being a 'female' or 'girly' army, I found that every time I mentioned Eldar people seem to give me a typical comment.
I did choose Eldar because of them being pretty (imo). What's the point in having an army that you don't think is attractive? That would never
feel like a true victory. I do like liking all the aspects of the army including the fluff.
Also what army did you pick. I think you covered that, but i must have missed it.
I mentioned Orcs and Lizardmen in the video but here's a brief review of my army picking so far ^^:
I started out with Orcs, then Lizardmen and eventually Orcs & Goblins (again the orcs, can't resist...) but then 6th edition came out for 40K, so the orcs and goblins were forgotten (unpainted and everything), and I bought some Grey Knights. In the end though I didn't like having like 15 minis on the board when playing 1500p so I switched to Chaos Daemons which is my primary, and also only fully painted, army at the moment. Then the Dark Vengeance box turned out so great so I couldn't help buying some Chaos Space Marines as well as loads for Dark Angels ^^ So all in all I've picked loads of armies For now I'm most likely switch between Chaos Daemons, with the space marines as allies, and Dark Angels.
Warhammerlady wrote: And to be perfectly honest, If I was a bloke posting this video I don't think there would have been this many responses regarding gender differences in the hobby.
It's quite understandable though, even putting aside the "OMG it's a girl, must post" factor that draws people in. After all only a girl can properly/accurately give the "girl perspective". And I suppose us guys all know the "guy perspective" to the hobby in its various forms already, so a guy discussing that wouldn't be as interesting as it's probably nothing we haven't seen before. It's kind of like how I'm from Finland, and it's a lot more interesting to hear a foreigner's opinion on Finland than it is a fellow countryman's... uh... well, I'm sure you get what I mean. And also, if it's a guy discussing girls in the hobby... well, that's been seen a lot too, and it generally revolves around the same recycled viewpoints and generalizations and assumptions and whatnot and probably more often than not is just an attempt to lure out any possible lurkers of the opposing gender on the forum - so nothing new there either.
Not that there aren't plenty of the usual comments in this thread as well, but at least there's also contributions from the "other side", as it were. And gotta say it's been surprisingly civil, overall.
Personally the little effects of painting is the hard part to me because i keep overlooking most of it. I just painted a Ghazzy for instance and when i was takin pics i noticed i totally forgot to add the chipped paint effect to his legs rofl. The only girl i know that paints (i.e. the only girl i know that even plays) spends easily twice the time i do per model and loves every minute of it. And does better lol.
I do that all the time! And it Always happens when I have finished of a part that required like 8 base coat-blends and 7 highlights and I can't for the life of me remember how I did it xD
Warhammerlady wrote: And to be perfectly honest, If I was a bloke posting this video I don't think there would have been this many responses regarding gender differences in the hobby.
It's quite understandable though, even putting aside the "OMG it's a girl, must post" factor that draws people in. After all only a girl can properly/accurately give the "girl perspective". And I suppose us guys all know the "guy perspective" to the hobby in its various forms already, so a guy discussing that wouldn't be as interesting as it's probably nothing we haven't seen before. It's kind of like how I'm from Finland, and it's a lot more interesting to hear a foreigner's opinion on Finland than it is a fellow countryman's... uh... well, I'm sure you get what I mean. And also, if it's a guy discussing girls in the hobby... well, that's been seen a lot too, and it generally revolves around the same recycled viewpoints and generalizations and assumptions and whatnot and probably more often than not is just an attempt to lure out any possible lurkers of the opposing gender on the forum - so nothing new there either.
Not that there aren't plenty of the usual comments in this thread as well, but at least there's also contributions from the "other side", as it were. And gotta say it's been surprisingly civil, overall.
Indeed.
I do like that it was given this much attention though cause I was really curious of hearing how other people, both guys and girls, viewed the hobby and it's really fun to read all the replies
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xraytango wrote: BTW if you've ever seen Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, you've totally got a Ramona Flowers thing going on, if you haven't it's still a pretty cool movie.
I've seen it - it's brilliant and thanks! I was amazed by her hair that I wanted something like it ^^
Aun Tier wrote: Interestingly, in 40K from what I've heard women seem to most frequently play Tyranids - now, I can't see a single reason that giant bugs would be considered girly, so I support your opinion.
When I was trying to get back into 40k, I was pretty much settled on Tyranids, though I thought I'd be charitable and ask my fiancees input. We walked into the store (something she refuses to do anymore), and looked in the display case. She said 'Those are pretty' while pointing at Tyranids. While I was happy she picked the army I'd settled on, the fact she thought they were pretty was beyond me. Giant dinosaur space bugs... This from the person who screamed in fright when she saw a giant Huntsman on our wall.
I also like Tyranids. If I hadn't got the Orcs from the the Assult on Black Reach box I would have picked nids. For me it was probably because, as I said, I first thought most of the 40 armies looked like toy soldiers however nids and orcs did not (!) thus they felt cooler and for me probably more "okay" to like. Today I'm not at all as fond of nids as I was 4 years ago, I'd much rather play Space Marines, like Dark Angels cause now I just think of them as awesome minis rather than toys
Automatically Appended Next Post: Instead of answering all the notes on painting and if girls in general like brightly colored models:
I like painting, it's awesome. But painting the same color scheme over and over again tends to get boring. That's one of the reasons I stopped playing orcs, I just couldn't find the motivation in never trying out new colors etc. Lizardmen are extremly colorful which allows for using loads of different colors and blends, preventing it from becoming boring and makes for a nice army to look at on the battle-board. Loads of color options also made me like chaos daemon since that would allow me to switch and paint both dark and bright colors. So for me, I like the variation rather than the brightness of the colors and I think it's the same for most people out there?
Also what army did you pick. I think you covered that, but i must have missed it.
I mentioned Orcs and Lizardmen in the video but here's a brief review of my army picking so far ^^:
I started out with Orcs, then Lizardmen and eventually Orcs & Goblins (again the orcs, can't resist...) but then 6th edition came out for 40K, so the orcs and goblins were forgotten (unpainted and everything), and I bought some Grey Knights. In the end though I didn't like having like 15 minis on the board when playing 1500p so I switched to Chaos Daemons which is my primary, and also only fully painted, army at the moment. Then the Dark Vengeance box turned out so great so I couldn't help buying some Chaos Space Marines as well as loads for Dark Angels ^^ So all in all I've picked loads of armies For now I'm most likely switch between Chaos Daemons, with the space marines as allies, and Dark Angels.
High five sister! (I also play Chaos Daemons as my main for a good few year now! )
Who's your favourite God btw? I went with Tzeentch, mainly because I love the fluidity & motion in the (old metal) Pinkies and Flamers, combined alongside the avian look of the Greaters/Heralds.
The only downside of course, being my one kitten who sees something birdy-looking and is constantly trying to kill and eat it...
On the other hand, I can't ever bring myself to contemplate O&G's simply because of the other 'woman' in the local area who's a die-hard Orc&Gobbo nutter, yet is also extremely akward to be around for more than a couple minutes... (Let's just say that very occasionally, those sterotypes of gamers being large & smelly and highly inappropriate in their conversations isn't only applicable to guys... *shudders*)
As for things like swearing that's normally associated more with guys, well, let's just say that I've played high-level compeitive hockey for 20+ years and have a couple army buddies who treat like their little sister and leave it at that!
I don't think I've ever seen a Woman play Space marines. Like, in person that is. The two woman at our FLGS play Daemons/Necrons and Sisters of Battle.
I'm glad to hear a different perspective on why someone choose to join the hobby. Also you followed the rule of cool in choosing your armies. Who could ask for a better member of the community. Also i'm not surprised you have received a warm welcome from what i've seen in 3 trips to Scandanavia they are some of the most polite and enjoyable people i've met.
Also I liked your Sammael very traditional and clean, I would be interested to see more of you paint jobs.
Melissia wrote: Maybe we could convince a yaoi fangirl to play Space Marines.
While I usually do agree with you Melissia, I'm afraid that I will not be the one to release a yaoi loving player upon the fanbase. I already nearly started christian J-pop out of spite for the world. Now this?
Although it shames me to admit it, i do find i tend to take notice of posts more if i know or highly suspect they are written by woman. I'd really prefer that i didn't do this though as it makes me feel slightly stalkerish.
At my closest gw theres a girl who collects nids. She has them painted dark green and purple though. She is a goth though so i suppose she might have a tendency for dark colours anyway...
Melissia wrote: Maybe we could convince a yaoi fangirl to play Space Marines.
While I usually do agree with you Melissia, I'm afraid that I will not be the one to release a yaoi loving player upon the fanbase. I already nearly started christian J-pop out of spite for the world. Now this?
I'm pretty sure she is already in the hobby, she probably plays Orks.
Firstly to the OP. The video was good, its nice hearing a girl's experience on 40k.
On an unrelated note, your hair looks great. Keep that color and style!
CrowSplat wrote: It's funny how the tyranid thing seems to be a pretty universal observation. About half of the women I've seen playing have been nids and the other half have been pretty varied. The only army I have never seen a woman play is SoB.
My wife does not like the SoBs at all. I thought if I could get her to paint anything it would be SoBs, but was dead wrong. She muttered something about the 'butch haircuts' of SoBs and hates the models.
As far as '40k women', I have only played one in my life. She played necrons.
To be honest, you don't just see strange treatment of women in gaming circles. Head out to a bar where there is only a couple of women and a bunch of guys and you will see a bunch of "normal" guys being fricking idiots.
The behaviour may be different but its still not that normal.
If you frequent stores with older customers, you will tend to see more normal behaviour towards women - it will still tend to be different to how they act towards other men but it won't tend to be quite as weird as they will have more experience interacting with women, be married, etc.
In relation to the armies "women" play, there was a girl at my universities wargaming society who played WHFB Brets. There is a woman staffer at my local GW. I don't know what she plays, though she painted herself green to be an ork at haloween, so maybe she plays orks (I only go in to the GW every few months to look at the painted model displays).
My wife had, when she was young, a lizardman army from the WHFB starter that her brother split with her. And she had a few wood elf models as well. She has no interest in the game now and refuses to enter GW stores because of how they make her feel.
labmouse42 wrote: Firstly to the OP. The video was good, its nice hearing a girl's experience on 40k.
On an unrelated note, your hair looks great. Keep that color and style!
CrowSplat wrote: It's funny how the tyranid thing seems to be a pretty universal observation. About half of the women I've seen playing have been nids and the other half have been pretty varied. The only army I have never seen a woman play is SoB.
My wife does not like the SoBs at all. I thought if I could get her to paint anything it would be SoBs, but was dead wrong. She muttered something about the 'butch haircuts' of SoBs and hates the models.
As far as '40k women', I have only played one in my life. She played necrons.
Funnily enough there are only two women who come in to my local GW. One plays Sisters the other plays Slaanesh Deamonettes. IT goes to show aesthetics are never universally pleasing.
High five sister! (I also play Chaos Daemons as my main for a good few year now! )
Who's your favourite God btw? I went with Tzeentch, mainly because I love the fluidity & motion in the (old metal) Pinkies and Flamers, combined alongside the avian look of the Greaters/Heralds.
The only downside of course, being my one kitten who sees something birdy-looking and is constantly trying to kill and eat it...
I love Tzeentch and my army is lead by Kairos or when playing smaller games the herald if tzeentch! I like the idea of the Fateweaver being utterly paranoid and the fact that nothing is ever constant, it just changes. I dream of one day having an entire army only made up of tzeentchy units ^^
Automatically Appended Next Post:
captain collius wrote: Also I liked your Sammael very traditional and clean, I would be interested to see more of you paint jobs.
Melissia wrote: Maybe we could convince a yaoi fangirl to play Space Marines.
Even though SM has a lot of homoerotic tropes, I don't really think they work as yaoi fuel.
SilverMK2 wrote: To be honest, you don't just see strange treatment of women in gaming circles. Head out to a bar where there is only a couple of women and a bunch of guys and you will see a bunch of "normal" guys being fricking idiots.
Have you ever seen things working in inverse? Where a guy walks into a room with a lot of women.
ShatteredBlade wrote: I don't think I've ever seen a Woman play Space marines. Like, in person that is. The two woman at our FLGS play Daemons/Necrons and Sisters of Battle.
There is a female who plays Dark Angels around here and there used to be one who played Blood Angels before she moved a year-or-so ago. The other two female 40k players that I know well are die-hard 'Cron fans. We've got a pretty welcoming group of people here, but when they showed up, it was definitely a bit of a "ooh, who's that!?!" deal, but they've been some of the most successful players in the area (or were when they were playing more before one had a kid and the other got a promotion).
I also don't think that the stigma against gamers is as bad as it once was, however. "Nerd" is making its way as the "in" thing in a lot of places, so maybe we'll be fortunate enough to have more women grace the gaming tables in the future.
SilverMK2 wrote: To be honest, you don't just see strange treatment of women in gaming circles. Head out to a bar where there is only a couple of women and a bunch of guys and you will see a bunch of "normal" guys being fricking idiots.
Have you ever seen things working in inverse? Where a guy walks into a room with a lot of women.
I have. It's why I try to avoid my daughter's Daisy (little girl scouts) troop. I helped set up the float for the Christmas Parade (read:did the whole thing) and it was a little uncomfortable with the flirting and the environment in general. It wasn't confined to the single moms either.
I think it is partly the ratio of male to female and partially in the activity. Stereotypically, women aren't as interested in war, especially in space. Men are attracted to women who share their interests, and they're rare.
Darrett wrote: women aren't as interested [...] in space.
That certainly isn't true from my experience... dunno about war, but space and space exploration certainly don't turn off most women in my experiences.
But then again, according to popular media, women HAVE no interests except talking about men, so eh.
Darrett wrote: women aren't as interested [...] in space.
That certainly isn't true from my experience... dunno about war, but space and space exploration certainly don't turn off most women in my experiences.
But then again, according to popular media, women HAVE no interests except talking about men, so eh.
Space exploration is one thing, but I was referring to war. The fact that war is occurring in space is just an additional ding against it. Fantasy settings are far more accepted by women it seems. Modern and space settings less so. Even my daughters whom I have desperately tried to get interested in science fiction is more interested in swords and sorcery.
My wife also demands that I correct the record and say her favorite WHFB army is Dwarfs, not Lizardmen.
High five sister! (I also play Chaos Daemons as my main for a good few year now! )
Who's your favourite God btw? I went with Tzeentch, mainly because I love the fluidity & motion in the (old metal) Pinkies and Flamers, combined alongside the avian look of the Greaters/Heralds.
The only downside of course, being my one kitten who sees something birdy-looking and is constantly trying to kill and eat it...
I love Tzeentch and my army is lead by Kairos or when playing smaller games the herald if tzeentch! I like the idea of the Fateweaver being utterly paranoid and the fact that nothing is ever constant, it just changes. I dream of one day having an entire army only made up of tzeentchy units ^^
If I were to ever grab Fateweaver, I'd want to base him ala Bart Simpson's first bed that Homer built for him - the psycho clown bed! (partly too because one of my mates had a fear of clowns)
Just love the image of Fatey rocking back and forth muttering, "can't sleep, Tzeentch'll eat me... can't sleep, Tzeentch'll eat me..."
I'd also love to do a mono-Khorne army since I love the whole 'martial honour at odds with the blood-mad butcher' aspect of his daemons, but I've endured a few too many "Red Fury" comments from young'uns thinking themselves cleaver, or older single dudes who's closest encounters with women involve TV screens & akward dreams.
(also the same reason why I can't do Blood Angels...)
SilverMK2 wrote: To be honest, you don't just see strange treatment of women in gaming circles. Head out to a bar where there is only a couple of women and a bunch of guys and you will see a bunch of "normal" guys being fricking idiots.
The behaviour may be different but its still not that normal.
If you frequent stores with older customers, you will tend to see more normal behaviour towards women - it will still tend to be different to how they act towards other men but it won't tend to be quite as weird as they will have more experience interacting with women, be married, etc.
The above is typically why at least two or three of my buddies join me the odd time I go out for a night of drinking. (typically due to play-off hockey or after a hard day of 40k tournament gaming!)
A few large, imposing 'older brother' types combined with a helping of The Escalation Game keeps all the morons at bay and in their place.
Warhammerlady wrote: So for me, I like the variation rather than the brightness of the colors and I think it's the same for most people out there?
Heh. I have trouble painting anything but black, because if I even contemplate such a thing, I take a step back because any other color just doesn't look as good That's why I have trouble with painting C:SM, because they'd turn out looking like my Templars so I'm not sure what to do about it. In addition my Orks end up Goffs (though I've only painted one model so far), and my Chaos Marines will end up some sort of black too.
Admittedly it'll be somewhat monotonous to paint, but at least the end result is a color combination I like. And of course painting black Orks is different from painting black Marines, since there's also green skin involved, and so forth. I will say that I'm more bothered by repetitive-looking poses etc than the similar colors. Yet I'm hesitant to do major conversion works, such as reposing legs and arms.
But by the Emperor, how I hate painting vehicles. Because they need to be black too, and black is especially unforgiving of all the unevenness in the flat surface areas. No such things in infantry so it's fine, but the vehicles are a major pain in the rear! I'd have to sandpaper every damn inch of the vehicles while somehow avoiding sanding off the small details
Oh, and gotta admit that there are a few other color styles I would consider, but they seem a bit too difficult for my nonexistent skills to pull off to the extent that it'd look good enough. Iron Fists and Red Templars are some examples, the subtle black shading of the Red Templars (shown in the Vanguard model picture) seems difficult to get right, and for Iron Fists... well, while metal colors on smaller bits look great, I have trouble with getting it to look good on larger areas (even stuff like Bolters) for some reason.
The OP of this post if sexy as hell. The fact that she is a gamer is just a bonus. I have absolutely nothing constructive to add or say about the content of the video. Just reverting to my base alpha male instincts here...now excuse me while I go sit on the front porch and grunt while smashing anyone who comes near my step with a large piece of wood.
As for some on topic discussion, I had a couple of questions for the OP, but they're not so much centered around gender. In America, a large amount of our gaming takes place in independently run stores (we refer to them as FLGS) and little to no gaming takes place in actual GW stores. In britain, most of their gaming is either at home, or in an official GW store (with the name and everything). Where you live, where do you guys typically play? I saw one of your batrep videos where you guys played at home (btw tell the Death Korps of Krieg guy his army is awesome) but is that a typical thing over there? Basically what I'm asking is, do people over there tend to play in GW stores, at home, independent stores, clubs, etc.?Everywhere seems to be different and I wonder if that has something to do with women joining the hobby. For example, in areas where most playing happens in stores, there will naturally be a higher "barrier" for women to join (for example, when you looked in the window and went "oh boy, I wasn't expecting this") But for areas where people play at home, I could see the "barrier" for women to start playing being much easier. You're with people you know, and there's a much lower chance of running into wierd or awkward moments than if you played in a store. It'd be no different than showing up and playing a game of monopoly essentially.
Secondly, does the game seem to be growing or shrinking in playerbase over there? Over here, we've been seeing a ton of new players with 6th. To keep this one on topic, do you see any chance of more women joining the hobby anytime soon, or do you see yourself as a "rare" occurrence? Guys can sit here and argue whether more women will start playing back and forth all day, but I'm interested to hear a viewpoint from a woman who is in the hobby and knows what it's like.
Thanks for all the insightful posts by the way. Sorry for the "trollish" posts earlier, I tend to do those on every thread. I like to keep things lighthearted.
Just my opinions on the girl gamer thing but i find that throwing yourself out as a 'girl gamer' kind of takes away the equal footing of some of this.
I think the biggest problem of the whole 'girl gamer' thing is not that they are girls at all so much as 'attractive girls' and to be fair those girls get attention everywhere. Online even a sexy voice or the statement that a person is a girl can be enough for some men to hope (including me though sexy voices worry me that this will end up like 'live free or die hard' and my *ss is about to be destroyed). People aren't entirely fair to attractive people including myself. Some of it is justly done as people probably treat them better and give them an easier time but that's what makes some other people mad. A good looking female player may be a decent player or a bad player but she's gonna get that attention. I suppose we just expect female power gamers to be unattractive and/or fat.
I'm sure treatment of women isn't always the greatest online and sometimes it's pretty bad but yeah some pretty lonely dudes are online (myself included) and it's bound to happen. I know it isn't right but you have to admit this thread and others get tons of posts because said gamer states they're a girl. Some of it is unfair bad treatment but some of it is good unfair treatment. I noticed that often girl gamers on another forum i used to go to definitely got noticed more and even got somebody to draw art of them like other forum members while some old guard of the site had been there for 4 years and gotten not one picture of themselves. I know i always hear about the negative treatment and maybe some can be creepy but you have to admit there's positive unfair treatment as well. Sure maybe they just want to get in your pants but how many free drinks have you gotten or other things that you've gotten because you were pretty or a girl? I know plenty of guys that are expected to pay for a whole date. That's not fair.
Also i don't know the case of other game stores but to be fair the couple GW's i have visited have had as a total maybe one or two attractive girls interested in the hobby. It's not entirely a matter of you being the bestest girl that there ever was so much as this is war-gaming and girls aren't interested in it and the few who are often aren't attractive. So yeah when an attractive girl comes along to displace all the dudes and she actually is a nerd it's extremely attractive. I mean there are a ton of dudes and few women in the hobby and what few women there are usually middle level at best from the GW store i went to. Oddly enough female gamers that state so on forums have been fairly attractive as i noticed. Maybe the attractive women are comfortable enough to state they are women?
I still think if a woman wants equal treatment online she should probably just stay anonymous. I know it isn't totally right and voice chat would be hard for them but for now that's what would be equal. I miss the days of adventure games when women actually would play those games. Now the only girls you find that are gamers would probably play rpg's. It's probably just my opinion but there ya go.
I'm sure melissia will kill me for saying this and she seems to state she gets negative attention for being a woman but i've heard on forums that she actually was probably given more lee-way for being a woman. Also if she was a dude with the same personality and interests i'd find people would give a lot less of a crap about her and may in fact insult her more even if the comments would probably be less unfairly sex-based. It's more the fact she seems always angry at everything in my opinion but that's just me. Meh i dunno. I know she'll destroy me for saying that but i felt it had to be said. She's done an insanely good job putting up with me though and even made huge strides towards getting along with me (or at least paying less attention to me at times) so i'll give her that (pretty f*cking applaudable actually).
--------------------------
Not entirely sure what else i wanted to say but yeah it's nice to see nerdy girls around.
I won't lie part of why i commented is because you're attractive but i feel i had some stuff to say about the girl gamer thing. To me it's really attractive when a girl actually enjoys some of these nerdy things esp. warhammer. Normally if i do mention it i brush it under the rug in shame to women. It's very attractive when the gender you're interested in actually enjoys what you do.
I also noticed on another forum that what few girls were on the war-gaming forum about half of them were not interested in guys O_O and if attractive probably had a boyfriend anyway or just weren't interested but then maybe that's just because it's me .
Gotta admit, i expected a spam video, glad to be proven wrong. Personally, i don't play the wargame, too expensive for me. If i want to get my ass handed to me in a strategy game, i will play Starcraft. I preferred painting. I originally spurred to this for collecting. Yeah i imagined my army, but i didn't think too much on it. Get models paint them, maybe play. Because i have horrible use of my hands, i felt that the detail for the miniatures would do me good, which i am pleased to report they have. Dead on with picking miniatures & armies. I chose what i think is cool, model, background, and what i could do with it. Thats how i assume everyone else operates unless told otherwise, and why not? its a good way to run by.
In my own off topic, i do love Swedish people. Of all the online games i played and all the nationality's i have encountered, a Swedish Guild was my favorite, joined and discovered that Swedes are ridiculously good looking. Every person in that guild was mind bendingly beautiful, and i didn't even feel bad in their presence. Most times i encounter good looking people they rubbed it in my face, not the Swedes.
*goes off on a thousand tangents of how amazing Swedish people look*
I should get back in touch with them.
One thing that's always puzzled me; I find women are less inclined to roll dice and consult tables. Obviously that isn't universally true, but of the dozen or so RPG/Board Game women I know, they prefer fewer moments of page turning and figuring out statistical probabilities and more storytelling moments. I like the two elements equally.
It might be that aside from the male-centric theme, the very nature of the game is more suited to analytical minds which are stereotypically male. Maybe we shouldn't be rolling to hit -and- to wound if we want the fairer sex to play more frequently.
From 8 pages down to 3, and 98% of those off-topic posts deleted were from the same 5 people!
Look, I'm going to try to make it simple:
If you'd like to post in this thread, make sure your post is related to the TOPIC, which is the content discussed in the video. If you find your conversation drifting into the realms of general societal attitudes towards gender or any other topic not directly related to gender in gaming, then it is up to you to STOP.
If you want to discuss these larger issues, take them to the off-topic forum and start a thread there.
You have been warned. If you are one of those people who had dozens of their posts deleted from this thread already, then you need to be doubly careful that any future posts you make in this thread are completely on-topic as any further OT posts by you in this thread will result in a suspension.
If i were to state an odd trend i noticed with female gamers or women that take any interest in the hobby whatsoever is they generally love to paint. It interests them even if the rest of the hobby doesn't. It confounds me. Women are more artsy overall i guess.
flamingkillamajig wrote: If i were to state an odd trend i noticed with female gamers or women that take any interest in the hobby whatsoever is they generally love to paint. It interests them even if the rest of the hobby doesn't. It confounds me. Women are more artsy overall i guess.
I can think of few girls who would not enjoy the painting side. Even a few aspects of the fluff can seem interesting to them, at least if you explain it in a certain way, though I wouldn't expect any girl who wasn't a nerd to actually read Black Library.
The gaming side itself, they have little interest in. Can't say I blame them, I'm not sure why I play it most of the time
flamingkillamajig wrote: If i were to state an odd trend i noticed with female gamers or women that take any interest in the hobby whatsoever is they generally love to paint. It interests them even if the rest of the hobby doesn't. It confounds me. Women are more artsy overall i guess.
I can think of few girls who would not enjoy the painting side. Even a few aspects of the fluff can seem interesting to them, at least if you explain it in a certain way, though I wouldn't expect any girl who wasn't a nerd to actually read Black Library.
The gaming side itself, they have little interest in. Can't say I blame them, I'm not sure why I play it most of the time
I'm actually more into fantasy itself now. I think i prefer the tactics in movement though that was mostly ruined with the double-edged sword that is 'steadfast'. I still think flanking should effect steadfast to a greater degree but chances are if that rule's fixed GW will totally mess up something that was never broken in the next fantasy rulebook. Meh go figure.
I feel bad about saying it and i know it might seem trollish considering this is the 40k forum but i'm not as into 40k anymore fluff included. The whole grim-dark emo crap ruined it for me and the fact that yeah you won't be missed and your accomplishments mean little but then you realize your accomplishments mostly mean little to nothing. It's nice you fought 10,000 battles on a 100 worlds including several forge worlds but in the grand scheme of 1 million worlds in the imperium alone you essentially did nothing and it's not like there isn't at least 1k forge worlds even if you do lose a couple. There's only a couple forge worlds like ryza that mostly make certain equipment. Without ryza i'm pretty sure plasma weaponry use would be crippled pretty badly but i'm not sure on all the details. If it wasn't for 40k orks then 40k would be pretty much devoid of humor i think. In fantasy in the last ogres army book my opponent's butcher farted as a miscast to his magic. Childish yes but it was funny. Skaven and orc & goblins are also pretty funny for differing reasons. Also yeah there are no sides really losing in fantasy but the empire has almost been lost multiple times whereas abaddon can't lead one successful black crusade that manages to even go beyond cadia in 40k (what a f*cking failure man). I can see why some might consider 40k a bit childish though. Big dudes in power armor that sometimes sounds like excited 12 year old boys just sat there talking about the most epic-est scene ever. I guess in some ways guys don't really grow up either considering some of us square off superman vs goku or predator vs master chief. Women are pretty big offenders of not growing up either though considering how many like and watch disney movies.
Sorry but i had to rant. Don't ask where that came from but anyway back on topic.
Oddly enough the genres girls tend to like more are probably steampunk and fantasy as opposed to sci-fi and other similar ones. At least that's what i got off it. Women really seem to love steampunk (warmachine too possibly?). I don't think any woman would like wearing a super tight corset though as it'd be hard to breathe. I never get their interests in anime either considering all the boob groping, flashing and panty shots. They'll probably mention they hate that part of it and yet they enjoy anime. They also play mmo-rpg's supposedly because they get to socialize with people. That's odd to me. I suppose i can understand that but i play games to play games. If i wanted to talk i'd go on the phone.
I was wondering what happened to this thread. I thought it had ballooned to 10+ pages and then I come back later and it is only 3 pages!
In any case, welcome to dakka! Whether man or woman, always good to see another person get into the hobby. And if - in the hypothetical sense - you ever get the chance to play me, don't expect me to take it easy on you in a game. I won't necessarily crush you, but I will make you work for a victory. The only people I take it easy on are new or the very young players who are just learning the game. (And when I say you, I don't mean just the OP). Hey, I believe in equality.
flamingkillamajig wrote: If i were to state an odd trend i noticed with female gamers or women that take any interest in the hobby whatsoever is they generally love to paint. It interests them even if the rest of the hobby doesn't. It confounds me. Women are more artsy overall i guess.
I can think of few girls who would not enjoy the painting side. Even a few aspects of the fluff can seem interesting to them, at least if you explain it in a certain way, though I wouldn't expect any girl who wasn't a nerd to actually read Black Library.
The gaming side itself, they have little interest in. Can't say I blame them, I'm not sure why I play it most of the time
Same here, one of the women I know that plays HATES painting, and has her husband do it for her.
I think the reason most women seem to like Lizardmen and Tyranids more than the others is because they're the least human, and the "cutest". Women naturally react more to cute things than men(The whole motherly hormone thing), and in all honesty, a Gaunt is adorable when placed next to a chaos marine. Seriously. Lizardmen are cute, adorable little reptilian scamps who will feast upon your civilization, and 'nids follow that concept closely. I'd guess that because women have the option to pick a race that can be equally deadly and cuddly, that's exactly what they pick.
I too have seen many women in my area play nids. Second most used army by women (that i've seen at least) is DE, and I've only ever seen one person play with SoB and it was a woman. I think more woman (and many men as well) would play SoB more if they could, but the ridiculous prices for their metal models and the sub-par at best codex turns people off.
797th Red Tigers wrote: I think the reason most women seem to like Lizardmen and Tyranids more than the others is because they're the least human, and the "cutest". Women naturally react more to cute things than men(The whole motherly hormone thing), and in all honesty, a Gaunt is adorable when placed next to a chaos marine. Seriously. Lizardmen are cute, adorable little reptilian scamps who will feast upon your civilization, and 'nids follow that concept closely. I'd guess that because women have the option to pick a race that can be equally deadly and cuddly, that's exactly what they pick.
My ex had some squigs that her ex had given her. She thought they were cute, though she only used them as window dressing
Honestly i gotta say i might feel somewhat bad losing to a woman unless i know they're as experienced as melissia or at least as much as she probably was. I don't know the specifics but even when i was big into 40k i'm sure i'd get steam-rolled by her to where my *ss would be sore. I'm not ashamed to say it either. There are quite a few people that i feel need to be de-throned from time to time however so they don't get too cocky and she might be one of them.
However in the case of a fairly normal nerdy girl that i haven't seen play a lot trouncing me i might feel my ego take a hit. Part of this is more if they were noobier than me so that's both men and women. I mean if a 12 year old beat you that wouldn't exactly be good for your ego. I suppose for me experience means a lot more than their sex even if i do more likely expect pretty girls or pretty people in general to not know what they're doing when it comes to most video games or tabletop games (to be fair they are treated better by some at least and that type of fighting their battles for them can be a bit disgusting and they might just take all the help they receive as normal and become full of themselves for it). If somebody got good really quickly somehow i might be a bit ashamed to lose to them. Then again i think i'm mostly actually refering to people that use the ultimate power lists they read online and use said strategies from the pros so no huge shame in losing to that.
Not to mention part of it is because guys expect a lot from other guys in some cases. It's like a woman beating you in an arm wrestling contest. I'd probably feel bad except in some cases (i sort of know an attractive girl that kickboxes and boxes) but if you should lose even if it's just told to others by the girl that beat you then i'd probably fear more the mocking from others. I dunno i guess it's an ego thing.
People expect guys to be in charge sometimes or to make the first move so whenever they don't people look down on that. Not to mention you couldn't dare hit a girl and not fear every man within a mile coming to beat your *ss. I think in the end it's not about women being oppressed by men or men being oppressed by women in every situation. I figure in some cases a woman might even oppress another woman saying on the whole she fit in too well with a dominating man. In some cases i think that'd be unfair and perhaps said woman actually does stuff because she enjoys it even if women that claim to be feminists actually try to get in the way of her enjoying it. In some cases like this i suppose some feminists (the supposed 'femi-nazis') just see women as a whole and wouldn't care for individual rights or a particular situation for a woman to want something. I feel that isn't right.
My point by this being some people expect men to be the dominant one. I suppose that's more a societal thing but also sometimes both men and women are offenders of upholding these ridiculous standards whatever they may be. I have seen both men and women telling boys not to ever cry or to never hit a girl (even though at that age strength differences are pretty slight but i suppose it's tailored to them for later). Not to mention sometimes there's responsibility with equal rights too (i think melissia mentioned women in the military in combat oriented roles in one case).
So yeah i suppose this is sort of off-topic or half off-topic but i felt it needed to be said.
Once again sorry for the wall of text. It's a bad habit of mine since i rant a lot when i get worked up on something.
The few girls that i see go to the local store, are not treated any differently from the guys that attend.
mind you the majority are them are playing magic and there is only about 1 that plays 40k. she actually plays Grey Knights and paints them extreamly well, and last time i saw her was painting a storm raven puting a detail on it similar to nose art but across the wing, it was a large demon on it (with a GK killing it in the painting).
compared to my low level of painting I belive she enjoys it and dedicates alot more effort them myself. I do not belive her being female has anything to do with it. Merely preference to put alot more effort into her painting.
But this is my only exposure to female war gamers, but she is very kind and as far as im aware she is not treated any differently then the primarily male gamers.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't know any girls that play, and all the girls I do know pretty much look down their noses at it.
Maybe it's a regional thing.
There is maybe 2 maybe 3 "regulars" at my GW store that are women (there have been other female players i've seen, but only 2 or 3 on a regular basis). Most other women you see at the store are clearly another player's girlfriend or whatever. You can tell cause they look VERY uncomfortable being there, though with all the neckbeards that gawk I really can't blame them...
I find this to be very odd. The women in the stores i've been to generally got treated fairly well and were never insulted until they left. Then again generally it was by the *ssholes in the store that are d*cks to everybody so really they're being treated just like everybody else. In fact i'd say i haven't seen guys act like jerks to women in any of these stores i've been to in almost every situation and i've even had the worst GW employee i've ever seen insult me every time i show up just like the jerks always act rude or insult completely without provocation. Then again this is in the GW's i've been to. I really have to say i haven't noticed any really bad treatment towards women in these stores and if anything they are treated too nicely even if some of the guys aren't the best looking and sometimes uncomfortable. To my knowledge quite a few dudes are average or decent looking at the least but very nerdy. The neckbeard thing isn't terribly big from what i've seen. I still think this is more a case of if the girl is pretty or not and really part of it is because most of the girls that are there are very middle ground at best as far as looks or weight is concerned. I mean i'm not the best looking guy though i can look good if i clean myself up. I just don't really try to look good if i'm going to GW. Only guys end up being there and the few girls which ever do show up aren't attractive enough for me to think about fixing myself up for. Then again it's not like i have B.O. that forms an aura around me that i use as a -2 to sexual attraction. It's more like i've gone a day or two without shaving and probably should clean up a bit more. Maybe it's similar to a girl that decided not to wear make-up after going out. I just don't see the point if i'm around a bunch of nerdy guys with poor social skills and such anyway.
As i've said before it's not a matter of you guys being just girls so much as you being gamer girls and even more so if you're attractive. An attractive girl that's a gamer is easily more attractive than one that's even better looking at times that isn't a gamer girl. It's something you have in common. Even if that wasn't the case this is a war-gaming place we're talking here. The guys easily outnumber the girls and the nerd crowd isn't always the most socially versed and at times are outcasts. Seriously i know they might be uncomfortable to you but it sucks to be a dude that has to compete for the affections/attention (or lack thereof) of the one girl in a gaming place and everybody knows they have like no chance ever. Maybe it's intimidating to the few girl gamers but it's intimidating for a bunch of socially awkward dudes. I dunno maybe i'm overstepping myself by saying all this. Maybe they are awkward but some of them are willing to be friendly to the women (admittedly with the thought of 'getting some' which is extremely unlikely btw) and just end up being so bad in social situations that they end up creepy or looking awkward. Besides a lot of this is based on how they look as well. I know plenty of jerks that have been with women and i can tell you if they weren't good looking the women they'd have would number about zero. Said guys probably shouldn't have women anyway. So yeah my other point is if a guy doesn't get many women such as in this case they'll probably treat you as well they can so they don't lose you. Really when you think about it if these guys really don't get many women then there's a possibility that many of them are the best and nicest guys you've ever met that are willing to bend over backwards for you. You'd think such guys would get treated better by women at the very least but i guess that doesn't happen. Then again what do i know.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't know any girls that play, and all the girls I do know pretty much look down their noses at it.
Maybe it's a regional thing.
There is maybe 2 maybe 3 "regulars" at my GW store that are women (there have been other female players i've seen, but only 2 or 3 on a regular basis). Most other women you see at the store are clearly another player's girlfriend or whatever. You can tell cause they look VERY uncomfortable being there, though with all the neckbeards that gawk I really can't blame them...
I've had much the same experience as Ferrum.
I don't necessarily consider it to be regional, but I think it's just the case for some stores. Plenty of you seem to have stores where girls are well received and well integrated into your gaming community.
At my store, there is one female regular, and she usually just paints and plays at special gimmicky events. Every other girl that has come in has been there to watch/hang with a male friend.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't know any girls that play, and all the girls I do know pretty much look down their noses at it.
Maybe it's a regional thing.
Partially. But not because they like SF and/or 40k any less. I'd have 3 girls playing me on a regular basis if it weren't for Australian prices. They don't get to take the time to fall in love with it, they take one look at the prices and go wtf? really? for some toy soldiers?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't know any girls that play, and all the girls I do know pretty much look down their noses at it.
Maybe it's a regional thing.
Partially. But not because they like SF and/or 40k any less. I'd have 3 girls playing me on a regular basis if it weren't for Australian prices. They don't get to take the time to fall in love with it, they take one look at the prices and go wtf? really? for some toy soldiers?
Then act like it's nothing to you. They'll think you're rich and you'll get laid
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't know any girls that play, and all the girls I do know pretty much look down their noses at it.
Maybe it's a regional thing.
Partially. But not because they like SF and/or 40k any less. I'd have 3 girls playing me on a regular basis if it weren't for Australian prices. They don't get to take the time to fall in love with it, they take one look at the prices and go wtf? really? for some toy soldiers?
Sadly this is the reason nobody i know outside of the store plays the game. I have maybe gotten one person i knew outside of the GW store interested in the game and he never tried to read the rules even a little. I basically lost all interest in playing with him because i did all the work, told him what to do and then steam-rolled him like every time even with an inferior force to what i'd normally be using (basically a WH: fantasy game where i use my skaven's doom flayers). Nobody i know outside the store has the time, money or patience to spend on this game and what few people are interested have no interest in playing unless it's with somebody else's models (total free-loaders).
@bryllcream: Dude if it was really that easy. Then again a friend noticed some pretty attractive girls were interested in me when i was at the bar with him. At least a couple i'd tap but i dunno about having them as a girlfriend. Not to mention they were a bit young for me. I'm fairly sure almost no woman that's older than me has ever been interested in me. I wouldn't be surprised if i met some 30 something year old women that tried flirting with me though. Might be a bit awkward but sometimes even slightly older women can be attractive.
...Most people in general aren't into 40k because it's seen as weird. They may be too polite to say this however and simply say they can't afford it. Such is life.
BryllCream wrote: ...Most people in general aren't into 40k because it's seen as weird. They may be too polite to say this however and simply say they can't afford it. Such is life.
I suppose that's a possibility. I felt the same way till i played the first 'dawn of war' series with 40k. I played the demos even before getting the games. I very much enjoyed the races. Some people do enjoy it but i suppose it's true some might say they can't afford it. Then again price is usually brought up quite a lot and that probably is the real reason quite often.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Some people do enjoy it but i suppose it's true some might say they can't afford it. Then again price is usually brought up quite a lot and that probably is the real reason quite often.
Most likely. If it was priced more like a regular board game, the "masses" would most likely be a lot more interested. Not that you can't play with just the starter set (or two), of course, but a lot of the regular players consider such a thing blasphemy and probably don't even consider offering that as an option.
LOL the girls are either current or former members of my RPG groups, so the 'too nerdy' thing isn't a problem And I'm married so I'm not so worried about impressing them to get laid :p
Hell, one of them is so nerdy she's getting a tattoo of the guns her character uses in my champaign done up. She looooves that character. At least one of them can afford to buy, but doesn't due to lack of percieved value. But I'm looking around for some awesome non-gw minis for her and the others, but I digress... again. >.<
As to the elevation of women in 40k to near deity status, I think that most of it is due to lack of normal and positive interaction with females in daily life for the average 40k player than anything else.
I think a lot of it is simply that people like it when their romantic partners share some of their interests - with so few ladies into 40k, interest is naturally high when one pops up.
I found the bit on having to overcome one's initial impressions of gamer types interesting, but it's not a uniquely female thing either - I had the same disinterest and misconceptions. It just didn't look that interesting from the outside... Why stand around a table all night when you could be out listening to bands and raising a ruckus, especially from a teenage mindset? Once I gave it a try though, it was a load of fun.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't know any girls that play, and all the girls I do know pretty much look down their noses at it.
Maybe it's a regional thing.
Close to half my playgroup is female. Now I'll grant you we play Warmachine/Hordes these days rather than 40k and that could have something to do with it as the setting is better about integrating women into leadership roles & important events. However, I really think it's more that we're a private gaming club that doesn't really allow stanky neckbeards or the type of folks who may have been expressing some of the more... pointed... opinions in some the previous discussions on this thread.
People don't like being places that make them feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or just play creeped-out. I won't say that gamer are on the whole better than other segments of the population at doing things that make women feel that way, its a pretty widespread thing. I will say they tend to be much better at doing it more overt, less socially acceptable sort of ways.
I got into the game through the fluff. I love to read. I got the first three Horus Heresy books for X-mas one year and have never looked back. I went to a shop with my husband and started talking with the other players about the fluff. Expanded my knowledge then starting watching the games. Asking questions on what and why they were doing what they were doing,
When the new Chaos Codex came out I decided to give it a go. I have always like Chaos. I am more interested in building up a good solid army than making them look nice.
Also I just consider myself a gamer not a girl gamer because if I differentiate myself than that just gives people the right to too. Treat me as a noob because I am new to the game not because I am a girl.
I recently played a game against another Chaos player and he was awesome. Treated me just like a new player not a girl player.
I've been playing 40k for about 10 years now, with a rather large lull in the middle. I started playing again right after my wife and I got married and the first thing she said when she saw my tyranid codex was how awesome it looked.
After that I started explaining the rules a bit and before long she picked dark eldar. So i got her one of those mega battle forces (about 1000 - 1200 pts) and she was playing. Gotta say though, she absolutely detests painting. Won't do it in fact. And over time she kinda fell away from it, though she's still up for a game every now and then (with her completely primed white army). But she loves watching me play, and still loves reading the fluff. My favorite thing is when I'm in a store and someone treats her like my arm candy and she will start pointing out design flaws in their army list, and calling them out on very technical rules. hahaha.
797th Red Tigers wrote: I think the reason most women seem to like Lizardmen and Tyranids more than the others is because they're the least human, and the "cutest". Women naturally react more to cute things than men(The whole motherly hormone thing), and in all honesty, a Gaunt is adorable when placed next to a chaos marine. Seriously. Lizardmen are cute, adorable little reptilian scamps who will feast upon your civilization, and 'nids follow that concept closely. I'd guess that because women have the option to pick a race that can be equally deadly and cuddly, that's exactly what they pick.
My ex had some squigs that her ex had given her. She thought they were cute, though she only used them as window dressing
Squigs ARE cute.
I want one. A real one I mean. It will scare off the neighbor's dogs and stop the fething mutts from barking up a storm at three in the morning every goddamned night.
That, or eat them. But I would prefer to feed it a mixture of sacrificial neckbeards and the tears of the damned over some mangy dogmeat.
There are a few regular 40k players at my local (one SM, One Nid and I think one Eldar)
My wife and oldest daughter play. My wife plays Eldar and Tzeentch Daemons (more into the painting than the playing though..) and my daughter has a small Nid force.
She's better off painting-wise than me though, as the rule is that she only gets a new unit when the last one is done
I think part of the problem is that the game is touted all too often as a boys game/men only thing. The sweaty neckbeards at many FLGS's that put out a real-life Aura of Decay don't help, and neither does the tendency to gawk, lech or attempt to explain the game in a condescending manner to the 'little girl/woman'.
My daughter ran into a kid a bit older than her (about 10) a a game store a bit back (she's a very precocious 7) who basically told her that his Marines were the bestest army, and they are boys only. No girls allowed. They would smash anything flat, and nuffin' could stop them, because they were boys.
So she challenged him to a game, and her Nids were well fed
Automatically Appended Next Post: His mom wasn't amused that my daughter 'bullied' him by winning either ...
My girlfriend and I had a bit of a gift of the magi moment starting into 40k. We had visited our FLGS and we were checking out the wargaming stuff. I mentioned I liked the CSM stuff and new a little bit of the lore, and that I may be interested in starting. She took a shine to some of the ork vehicles. So, later, I picked up a battlewagon kit for her to paint. I knew she digs steampunk a bit and she used to paint quite a bit. Meanwhile, I didn't know that she went and purchased therule book and a copy of AoBR for me. So weren't we both pleasantly surprised come Christmas when we exchanged gifts, and had a good laugh. So that's how we started. We're still building and painting CSM and Ork armies. She loves her kan wall and keeps thinking of ways to incorporate grots into kitbashes. She doesn't like building, however, so I generally cut, glue and mod to her specification, but she does enjoy painting quite a bit and has even painting a few models for my army.
Meanwhile, while at that same FLGS on another occasion, I've seen the creeper factor in full effect. The shop has about 5 regular employees, 2 of them women. We were looking at dice in a display case with the younger female employee. We hear a click and flash from behind us. All three of us turn to see a man who has come out of the play section of the store holding a cell phone up, having taken a picture of the clerk. Before we could say anything he blurts out "Sorry" and scuttled back to the tables, out of sight. After a moment, I turn back to the clerk and ask "Do you get that a lot?" With a somewhat confused look she just responded "No.", shook off the creepiness, and we went back to looking at dice with her. We genuinely felt bad for her.
As much as I love my girlfriend, the cattiest I've ever seen her was at a different FLGS. Upon seeing an entry in a painting contest submitted by another female, she immediately went dark. To the side, she immediately started nitpicking everything about the model and the submitter. Needless to say, I laughed and called her out on her cattiness. I think that ruffled her feathers even further. The reason? Even though she paints and plays on occasion and encourages me to hobby (she likes seeing me take interest in constructive activities), she always makes fun of it. It's in good fun and I take it as such. This is the one time I've ever seen her that competitive and catty, and there she was getting aggressive about plastic army mans.
Meanwhile, we have a severe aversion to neckbeards. There are a number of FLGS neither of us will visit due to a) cleanliness of the business, b) neckbeard factor of owners/customers, and c) social issues with owners/customers. This transcends gender in our case, however I feel that women are a magnet for that sort of attention, so in agreement with the girlfriend, I try and intercept and deflect oddballs who want to talk *at* her at shops, so that we can make our purchases and move along.
A few days back I watch Killing Us Softly 3 & 4 (1-3 is for historical reference, they're fairly similar) which is essentially a lecture in how society in western countries (well, I imagine it does apply to just about any society centred around modern consumerism, so just about any non-islamic and non-developing countries) teaches us to view women. The lecture itself is about commercials, but I find it applies to just about everything since the pattern is repeating in oh-so-many places.
Essentially, I can't help but view this whole thread through that lens. I feel inclined to say "no, it's not Warhammer that's touted as a man/boy game". Essentially when we're taught from a very early age and constantly bombarded with the message that aggressive and outspoken is male and timid is female, well Warhammer marketing may just be a victim of what is perceived as the norm.
Women may be a fairly substantial audience for the game if the macho stamp is removed - or conversely if public opinion is shifted so that women are allowed to be macho as part of their femininity.
Regardless, I think the subject of this thread has long since veered off track
Mahtamori wrote: A few days back I watch Killing Us Softly 3 & 4 (1-3 is for historical reference, they're fairly similar) which is essentially a lecture in how society in western countries (well, I imagine it does apply to just about any society centred around modern consumerism, so just about any non-islamic and non-developing countries) teaches us to view women. The lecture itself is about commercials, but I find it applies to just about everything since the pattern is repeating in oh-so-many places.
Essentially, I can't help but view this whole thread through that lens. I feel inclined to say "no, it's not Warhammer that's touted as a man/boy game". Essentially when we're taught from a very early age and constantly bombarded with the message that aggressive and outspoken is male and timid is female, well Warhammer marketing may just be a victim of what is perceived as the norm.
Women may be a fairly substantial audience for the game if the macho stamp is removed - or conversely if public opinion is shifted so that women are allowed to be macho as part of their femininity.
Regardless, I think the subject of this thread has long since veered off track
While I certainly agree, I think the mods would like us to stay away from such a discussion.
It would seem that there is no male or female agonized decision to play a table top wargame, nor in choosing an army. There probably isn't some underlying "female mystique" that drives them toward one army or another, just as it is doubtful that any male player worries whether or not his army choice will be manly enough, we like what we like for our own reasons and that's all there is to it. It all boils down to two things: 1. That we get over the fear of being perceived as "nerdy", juvenile, or odd for doing what we like to do. 2. That we play fairly with one another according to the rules of the game and the principle of good sportsmanship, regardless of being male, female, or a ten-legged hermaphroditic swamp worm from Titan.
Sometimes I wonder if Gender Studies has unneccessarily complicated our thoughts on things, concentrating so much on the minutiae that we loose sight of the bigger picture that is living with each other on this little planet.
Do you really need to assign why someone likes one brand of peanut butter over another based on sex?
Do you really need to assign why someone likes one brand of peanut butter over another based on sex?
Trying so hard not to make a joke with that last sentence but i might get in trouble with the mods if i do . I think it's actually worse than you probably think.
no special treatment from me ill let ya know if i think ya need to work on painting also i like to paint and im not a girl so >.> its not just a girl thing tho i like to convert things more then paint but both fun to me .
Well nice video my wife of 26 years yes we are older lol. Never gamed then wanted to paint thats what got her in the door. Now she has painted and built over 4000 points of space marines. Has started a chaos army and is considering fantasy army. You are well spoken and it would be cool to see some of your painted models. Have you played many games yet?
@warhammernut: What fantasy armies is your wife considering? There are quite a few armies that look really nice right now like vampire counts. I hear the coven throne/mortis engine model is really nice looking and the coven throne is bedecked with like 3 vampire women so maybe she'd prefer to paint that.
kwah wrote: no special treatment from me ill let ya know if i think ya need to work on painting also i like to paint and im not a girl so >.> its not just a girl thing tho i like to convert things more then paint but both fun to me .
Yep. Painting is not a guy thing or a girl thing. It's more of a warhammer thing. Personally I hate to pant, but I like to assemble. I try to get to my friends models before he dose and assemble them that way I play a role in what will end up being a rather impressive model.
My wife is considering lizardmen, Ogeres, or orcs and Goblins. My Army is skaven and I will be doing a Vampire counts army eventually. The mortis engine is a phenominal model. There is an article in the white dwarf on how to paint it in three parts.
Gotta love that "lightbulb" learning has occurred moment when something turns out to be completely different then you thought it was ja? Otherwise I agree with Melissia.
Melissia wrote: Also, to discuss the video itself... I like your voice, accent, and general style of speaking; you speak with confidence and clarity that many youtubers seem to be incapable of, making your discussion very nice to listen to, and I didn't once have to rewind to try to figure out what you had just said.
So bravo to you on that I think a video series further discussing what you like about warhammer, your various experiences, etc would be quite nice to have, if you have the time to produce them!
As to picking an army it's always been about fluff and telling a story for me. My first army... sorta when I was into the game as a kid was Necrons. (this is 3E mind you) and while people told me they were bland, the mystery, the souless killing machines, etc really appealed to me for some reason. Maybe I was in a goth phase or something. Then as time went on and I just read the books I came to truly appreciate the Imperial Guard and Sisters of Battle, the unsung heroes of humanity, especially the former, the whole line about mere mortals taking on demons and other various creatures that they normally send in super human demigods to handle with nothing but a flashlight, the cardboard armor, and a set of brass ones.
Sisters I admired for flame based weaponry and intense, dedicated faith. Sure they have nicer toys for the basic trooper in the field then the guard, but these too are mortals stepping up against a grimdark universe with faith, a flamer and a little back up. Then Space Marines because I realized I could start a 2000 point army dirt cheap with DV, and let's face it for all the gak they're given... SM are cool, and now I've come full circle back to Necrons, who have seemed to change a little since I was away... they speak now for one.
All told there's something in this hobby for everyone I think!
With me fluff helped but playstyle is a bigger deal. I liked imperial guard because that's what i played in 'dawn of war: winter assault' and the idea of explosions everywhere appealed to me and somewhat the tanks.
With skaven i once again played mark of chaos and other than empire they appealed to me the most (though that game only had like 4 factions and i never got the expansion). With skaven i'm more fond of the way they talk, the dangerous arcane steampunk conquering the world 'pinky and the brain' feel, the betrayal and treachery and a couple other things. Strangely enough i find i only really like skryre (arcane steampunk war machines) and pestilens (plague monks who are basically nurgle rats without nurgle). That said clan moulder's hellpit abominations are cool but that's the only thing they have i enjoy. Then there's clan eshin which is cool but their assassins aren't fantastic and their units aren't the best things the skaven have. I'm still thinking of doing that 40-50 night runner with warp grinder team loadout though. I still think the basic night runners models are way outdated and ugly but then so are plague censers and many of the heroes (but not special characters) if you've had the chance to buy them and see them first hand. Hopefully the other greater clans like eshin (assassins and ninjas) and clan moulder (monsters bred for battle) become more interesting in the future. The odd thing about skaven is their monsters are basically existing monsters and beasts with rat parts added to them and the arcane war machines are often just other races' war machines with warpstone added to them in some way (making them more dangerous). It's not entirely true but those are two big things skaven seem to do.
It's not really the idea that the armies i choose are very horde-like. Oddly enough most of the armies i tend to like just do hordes really well like vampire counts but i like them for the necromancy and vampiric part. I don't entirely know why horde armies seem to be the factions i choose with warhammer since i don't really do that in anything else. The sides i usually choose seem to at least not be that good at melee or at least have crappy WS. At least in 40k if i get back into it i think i'll do dark eldar.
Though this may sound odd i actually hate the battles skaven and imperial guard seem to have in their fluff.
Skaven seem to not lose much ground if any but they haven't done anything big in a long while. The last time they did anything sorta big was when they had a unified attack against nuln and they only took out half the city after a surprise attack from the sewers. I know it's a big city and all but it's still not altdorf and it still ended badly. I mean orcs & goblins have animosity but one of their leaders took out 3 huge imperial provinces and i think also killed the emperor. The skaven have killed plenty of heroes but most of the damage they do seems to be in the way of plagues before some BS plot armor or similar ends up saving some good guys (like the lizardmen and high elf battles they fought). They kill nagash but his hand crawls away, they nearly destroy the empire through plagues during a weak time but mandred rallies them together even if they do get to assassinate him and ruin the empire and they kill sigmar's reincarnated form or something. I suppose i just wish skaven could actually win a battle with their armies. They are basically the nids and orcs of 40k except instead of good melee they have good shooting. Nobody really knows much about skaven (because they use magic to hide themselves) as far as the other factions are concerned but maybe that's because they don't care :(. If they were better known by anything else besides nagash, dwarfs and possibly orcs and goblins the other factions might be harder on them esp. during skaven civil wars. Then again skaven do reproduce about as fast as the orks of 40k and this is without the use of spores from their dead like orks have.
Then there's the imperial guard who have fun tanks but are basically the punching bags of 40k no matter what anybody says. In their codex they lose a lot of battles and never seem to have won against the tau. They also only seem to kill eldar, cultists, traitor guard and orks well whereas everything else tends to own them in the fluff almost all the time. It's kind of depressing really. Then again maybe i just haven't read enough of the fluff.
First, really good video, you speak clearly, you make sense, you're nice to listen to, and you make good points.
Secondly, I think many people are surprised by women being into 40K, because the whole game, being centred around war, violence, and some rather disturbing background material, doesn't fit stereotypical ideals of what women like. I find it very refreshing to see female 40K players, probably because I get on better with females than males, and also because it's such a rare sight.
On the other hand, men can be very patronizing towards female hobbyists, telling them that even their worst models are good, simply to avoid scaring them off (which can have the opposite results).
Anyway, nice to see another girl in our ranks, and may your hobby time be fruitful and enjoyable!
Basically what I'm asking is, do people over there tend to play in GW stores, at home, independent stores, clubs, etc.?Everywhere seems to be different and I wonder if that has something to do with women joining the hobby. For example, in areas where most playing happens in stores, there will naturally be a higher "barrier" for women to join (for example, when you looked in the window and went "oh boy, I wasn't expecting this") But for areas where people play at home, I could see the "barrier" for women to start playing being much easier. You're with people you know, and there's a much lower chance of running into wierd or awkward moments than if you played in a store. It'd be no different than showing up and playing a game of monopoly essentially.
Secondly, does the game seem to be growing or shrinking in playerbase over there? Over here, we've been seeing a ton of new players with 6th. To keep this one on topic, do you see any chance of more women joining the hobby anytime soon, or do you see yourself as a "rare" occurrence? Guys can sit here and argue whether more women will start playing back and forth all day, but I'm interested to hear a viewpoint from a woman who is in the hobby and knows what it's like.
I don't know the ratio of people playing at a store and not but from my experience: I know for a fact that some of the staff in my local GW store gather up their friends and play after hours but that's essentially the same thing as playing at a club. Also about an hour away there's independent retailer and he has lots of battleboards and there are people playing there all the time. Here in Sweden there aren't that many GW stores and thus I'm gonna guess that most people play the game at a local "clubhouse"(in lack of a better word) or at home. I myself mostly play at home and my friends come here cause for me it's easier since I have the battleboard and all of the terrain and it would be a challenge to carry all that with me.
I don't think it's a higher barrier for girls entering a store and wishing to learn/play the game, at least where I live - they play quite a lot of introduction games and I have seen some girls there from time to time. The staff in my local store are also very nice and utterly professional. Also walking into that store your usually not stared at like a rare collectors item since there's two girls on the staff and it makes for a more neutral gaming experience
I don't go to the store quite so I'm not sure how the playerbase looked from the beginning so I can't really answer that question.
As for increase in women. Yes, I think it might be possible. Today, as compared with like 10years ago it seems to be more okay to be a bit nerdy. For example when I first started playing WoW I never came across another girl playing the game but now I have met tons of girls that play or have played. If the general acceptance towards nerdy hobbies keeps increasing then I think it might be fair to say that in a few years more girls will have entered the hobby. I for one hope so since I'm trying to convince all my friends (girls) that if they'd just try it and stop thinking that it's all nerdy and weird they'd really like it since it's a fun hobby!
Warhammerlady wrote: I myself mostly play at home and my friends come here cause for me it's easier since I have the battleboard and all of the terrain and it would be a challenge to carry all that with me.
I haven't watched it myself, being almost 100 minutes long, but "Gamers on Games" has just released a video of an online-stream-discussion on "Women in Gaming":
Gamers on Games wrote:Gamers on Games has a long discussion with various geek influencials about women in gaming and geekdom.
Panelists include :
Anja Keister (d20 burlesque)
Zoe & Wanda (RetroGamerGirls)
Damian Charpentier (Minmax Games / Warpaint Miniatures)
Kelly & Madalyn (Double Exposure conventions)
This 90 minute discussion covers topics across the geek and gaming spectrum. We hope this really helps the gaming community as a whole.
Well this was interesting. I do have to say that i have never seen Lizardmen as girly(say you 7-8ft tall carnivorous, heavily armed lizards). Maybe wood elves but even then..........
Well good to hear from you warhammer girl and thanks.
Well I've seen this thread for a while and wasn't really sure if I should take a peek. But I have, and I've watched the video, so now I ought to comment I suppose.
The video: pretty good all round. I did have a small issue regarding how loud you spoke - for the most part it was audible and then you'd get quieter for a bit... then return to normal level. Also your accent made a few bits of the video slightly hard to understand but that's a language barrier so it's a tad moot
To your points: It was pleasant to here how your perception changed from one experience and how it removed the general image you saw of the hobby. I wish my work colleagues would do that >_>" (My IT Manager, at time of writing, thought you can swap models about like Pokemon cards. The head of Finance thought it was all like Top Trumps. Honestly...) Anyway, I did enjoy your opinion and I fully respect it, as many should. The comment on which armies you took are reasonable - personally I've not heard of the "which armies are more appealing to female gamers" thing so the whole Lizardmen thing went over my head; but I can see what people meant.
On the whole at least you recognize the main issue at hand with the whole female attention in 40k, which TBH I've not had the opportunity to experience. Because female gamers are very rare for the most part, your average male gamer would be in somewhat shock and awe at the mere spectical of a girl walking into the FLGS and asking to buy models. I've read before of dakka member's partner's visiting their local store and getting mixed reactions from the players in-store - from creepy looks to lusty friendly conversations.
... That's a wall of text. OK, TL: DR - nice video, can be improved on for overall sound in minor areas. Points were nicely made and nothing of value was lost. And your painting is pretty good, I'll give you that
I watched the whole Gamers on Games video: It basically comes down to common sense, treat others how you'd like to be treated, women as rare as they may seem are not. We all don't like being judged, and we all belong in the same place no matter who you are.
Welcome them regardless of differences.
Stand up for those who are discriminated against, have zero tolerance for derogatory language and be intelligent enough to know what it is, and when to speak up.
DemetriDominov wrote: I watched the whole Gamers on Games video: It basically comes down to common sense, treat others how you'd like to be treated, women as rare as they may seem are not. We all don't like being judged, and we all belong in the same place no matter who you are.
Ask wargamers how they feel about girl gamers: Get "Equality, kindness, no judgement"
Ask wargamers how they feel about fratboys: "D-Bags! Tools! Jerks!"
That is because "girls" are roughly half the population, and they have no real choice in the matter about being girls (for the sake of this convo, let's avoid any discussion of transgender politics and the like, 'k?), while "fratboys" choose to be douchebags.
They can't help but be male, but they can damn sure help how they present themselves to the rest of the world. "Fratboy" is not a term that is used to define any male who happens to be a member of a fraternity, it is a term used to describe a male who may belong to a fraternity and who behaves in a particular manner.
Psienesis wrote: "Fratboy" is not a term that is used to define any male who happens to be a member of a fraternity, it is a term used to describe a male who may belong to a fraternity and who behaves in a particular manner.
That's like saying "Oh, chicks are so stupid and annoying. But you're a girl, It's different. You're not a chick." It is the terminology used that is equally inappropriate, whether intentional or not.
The negative connotation and instant judgement is there, and the wording is poor. Lumping in an entire demographic with one's stereotype of "who is douchey usually" is inappropriate.
Personally speaking, I'm a judgmental bastard. I could get to know people as individuals and find reasons to hate them, but I find that lumping them into easily-identified categories based on their observed behaviors is much faster and easier. (I am also a lazy bastard.)
If you walk into my FLGS going like "Chicks, amirite, brahs? Yo, brahs, toss the Robinator a brewski. Amirite, brahs?" and such... then, yeah, I'm going to assume you fit into the "fratboy" stereotype, and not have anything to do with you, I don't care how many plastic toy soldiers you're carrying, because in my estimation (which, in my life, is the only estimation that matters) you're a worthless lump of flesh.
Just wearing a sports jersey or having a high-and-tight (while not being active duty military) is not enough. That's externals... book covers, in other words. But if you comport yourself as a "fratboy" in public spaces, I'll treat you like one, which means I will treat you as if you were beneath my contempt.
DemetriDominov wrote: I watched the whole Gamers on Games video: It basically comes down to common sense, treat others how you'd like to be treated, women as rare as they may seem are not. We all don't like being judged, and we all belong in the same place no matter who you are.
Ask wargamers how they feel about girl gamers: Get "Equality, kindness, no judgement"
Ask wargamers how they feel about fratboys: "D-Bags! Tools! Jerks!"
Interesting.
Generalization such as this is the last lesson. Avoid it. I'm a wargamer and I hold all to the standards of women because I hold the same standards for all.
As for you Psienesis, I'm not even going to attempt to broach that belief.
If you walk into my FLGS going like "Chicks, amirite, brahs? Yo, brahs, toss the Robinator a brewski. Amirite, brahs?" and such... then, yeah, I'm going to assume you fit into the "fratboy" stereotype, and not have anything to do with you. Because in my estimation you're a worthless lump of flesh.
If you comport yourself as a "fratboy" in public spaces, I'll treat you like one, which means I will treat you as if you were beneath my contempt.
So instead of judging by someone's cover, you judge them by the plot synopsis on the back.
Interesting. Guess it's a bad time to confess that I'm the frattiest bro to ever bro in his frat, then.
Edit: I'd hate to derail this thread though; thank you for your honesty and moving on.
I think its weird what attracts people to this hobby in the first place. I don't think it matters if you are male or female.
For me its more of an escape from what can be a mundane reality, not to say i think my life is boring or hate my life, quite the opposite.
Its more about that release from the everyday, escapism.
We all do it, we just have different forms of achieving it.
Women will always be a minority for our hobby. Your video expressed why, getting through that nerd barrier, peer pressure from friends when you are young, not wanting to be labeled as being different or even picked on/bullied because of it.
I actually think peer pressure in this case is worse for women than it is guys and therefore the willingness to accept or be intrigued by something that isnt the everyday is harder to get over/around.
Great vid, its always interesting to hear other people's perspective on things.
I have had two defining experiences with girls and "nerd-dom" one was when I started 1/87th scale model-railroading (I still laugh at people moaning about hard see tiny details) when my mom purchased 280 little people "for me" and then painted half of them over a month. The best part of this is that Mom is a vastly better painter than me (at super small scales anyway) but only likes doing 1/87th figures and buildings to unbelievably high quality.
The other case was a couple of the girls at my paintball club, they are good - very good - they both can hold down a central position on their own with some of the cheapest guns on the market. Its a bit scary actually...
Though both these cases where off topic, the similarity everyone cites as being defining features of "nerdy" girls are there, excellence, they take time to be good at what they do.
So if I dress in drag and put fruit down my shirt, will people like my painting more?
On a more serious note, my theory for the Tyranids and Lizardmen is that, amongst most armies, they appear to be the most gender neutral, where most armies a very masculine. Though the flaw with this logic is that most girls I know who play have an Ork army. you don't get more masculine than that.
Psienesis wrote: "Fratboy" is not a term that is used to define any male who happens to be a member of a fraternity, it is a term used to describe a male who may belong to a fraternity and who behaves in a particular manner.
That's like saying "Oh, chicks are so stupid and annoying. But you're a girl, It's different. You're not a chick." It is the terminology used that is equally inappropriate, whether intentional or not.
The negative connotation and instant judgement is there, and the wording is poor. Lumping in an entire demographic with one's stereotype of "who is douchey usually" is inappropriate.
Well what's the limit here? I mean i had a roommate that was kind of like a 'scumbag steve' meme. He's a drug addict that does heroin now. He's the reason my current roommate now drinks (he got him to start drinking again). When i lived with said guy he always made the microwave messy and left dishes loaded in the sink completely dirty with flies and sh*t going all over them. He was basically the douchiest douche in all of douche-dom. He even managed to get a drug dealer to call up the house and threaten to kill everybody until he got his money from said roommate and of course despite getting everybody to let him off the hook he kept doing drugs and now does heroin. He used to be fat and now has lost all his weight (due to heroin). His dad also basically is super rich and he never gets caught doing drugs or destroying a car he's given. Admittedly he does work for stuff (somehow he used to be a waiter even with his drug addiction) but he's gotten a ton of free sh*t from his dad that he's destroyed or sold for drugs. After a point it really doesn't matter this dude is just a total waste of space and he just doesn't get caught. At some point the dude is going to over-dose. I'd really like to call the cops on the dude but of course my roommate would be super sad then. Anyway my current roommate is going to move out soon anyway so i'll never have to hear about this other roommate i had ever again (they were friends but mostly because my current roommate doesn't go out to meet anybody so he only has like a couple choices for his friends).
All that said this drug doing roommate was at times nice. He's a douche that only cares for himself but he didn't beat people up or insult them or anything. He also seemed to be incredibly stupid. So yeah there's my rant.
I do judge people and i'll admit it but i give them a shot. Usually i roll my eyes when i see them but i'll give them a shot. Sometimes a dude might have piercings all over his face and be pretty nice actually. Sometimes somebody is really quiet and they hide some really weird BDSM fetish and used to be into death metal and had the supposed 'punk' look. I mean yeah i won't lie and say i don't judge people at all. I give them a shot but i do expect certain behaviors at times.
). It's probably more out of ignorance than anything though. My girlfriend thought that D&D was super lame and nerdy when we first met too, and now she's one of our more enthusiastic players.
, and people praise my painting all the time. 
A persons gender is masculine or feminim, there sex is male or female. 
sorry just one of those things that annoy.
You don't have to have the same hobby, but start dissing it as childish or whatever based on an arbitrary viewpoint, and you're out.
