Tre's second kickstarter is up and running:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1103158358/red-box-games-miniatures

We are beginning with the goblins by popular demand but I have a LOT of stuff to retool and I will be taking every comment and request under consideration as the campaign progresses. It is my plan to move on to the Dvergr or the Aenglish after the goblins are retooled, hopefully there will be enough time in this campaign to make that happen but that is all up to you!

The current pledge options with savings break down and dollar value when models are unlocked:

SOLOS ($5)
Runty Gob Archers (3 figures) Unlocked
Dogsbane (1 figures) 15k
Black Tongue (1 figures) 15K
Gore Fang (1 figures) ?? (not mentioned anymore)
Crowbiter (1 figures) 50k

LESSER RANKS ($25)
Runty Gob Spearmen (12 figures) Unlocked
Runty Gob Foorment (12 figures) Unlocked

SPECIAL RANKS ($35)
Goblin Bonebacks A (12 figures) 25K
The Troll Brothers (2 figures) 45K
Runty Gob Wolf Riders A (4 figures) 35k

$30 level, no saving
$55 level, saves $5
$90 level, saves $10
$115 level, saves $20
$165 level, saves $40

There are two new pledge levels for folks interested mostly in the special ranks (trolls, bonebacks)

90 dollars - three special options, 2 solo - savings - $25
120 dollars - three special options, 3 solos, 1 lesser rank - savings - $25

Dire wolves - 3 for $15, 6 for $25

Some pics of the new models:







And I guess, should address this right off the bat - Tre's minis are scaled about the same as LOTR minis, so the goblins are fairly small.

All measurements are based on full standing ( both feet together back straight ) armatures measured from the bottom of the feet to tthe top of the skull.

Humans .................... 32 to 34mm

Elves ..................... 29 to 31mm

Dwarves ................... 22 to 25mm

Gnomes..................... 15 to 20mm

Goblins ................... 15 to 25mm

Trolls..................... 45 to 50mm

giants .................... 35 to 55mm

The proportions on RBG figures is modeled MUCH closer to what you would expect to see on a real person shrunk down to 32 mm tall than what is typically considered the " norm " in " heroic " 28 mm figures. So with RBG figures a dwarf does NOT look like it would out weigh a human of similar character and Elves do not look like humans with pointy ears. All races are very clearly identifiable by height and build. and their heads, hands and feet are proportionate to the standard human scale.

I'm holding out for Orcs from Tre, but these are looking good.

So many choices!

Runty Gob Spearmen (only 6 sculpts so you get 2 of each):


Runty Gob Footmen:


Bonebacks:


I'm a little bummed about the pledge levels, because there's no way to get lots of bonebacks and no runty gobs without just paying for individual sets. But I think I'll come around on it

So excited that this is up finally

Why is it all so CHEAP?! How is Tre making money?!

What do people think would be the most economical pledge level to go with? I fancy experimenting with some Red Box models as they look great but I'd just like to dip my toes in with a decent amount of figs...

Reckon the $35 would suffice? xD

I do like how tre estimates to be able to deliver a pledge level consisting of just his thanks as early as aug. 2013

 Scrub wrote:
What do people think would be the most economical pledge level to go with? I fancy experimenting with some Red Box models as they look great but I'd just like to dip my toes in with a decent amount of figs...

Reckon the $35 would suffice? xD

The 30 dollars (plus shipping 5 international shipping) option would be a pretty good one.

You can get 12 spearmen (or 12 footmen when that option opens up) and 3 bowmen (or one of the heroes when they open up).

I own the spearmen and bowmen in metal, they are very nice figs.

I backed earlier today, those new goblin models were just too tempting too pass up.

I would've preferred to see most of current existing goblin models included in the initial goal though, or at least the first 2-3 stretch goals being a tad lower than is necessary. Because at the moment until the campaign can hit the the 25k-30k goals there just isn't much of a backbone for this Kickstarter to grow from.

Im not trying to be negative, I just don't want to see this campaign experience a similar launch like the Helsvakt KS did. (A great first 3 days, but then a sudden substantial drop in daily pledgers.)

These are really great looking. I missed out on getting some Gynnade Krigare from the last KS.

I love his other sculpts, and look forward to some of the stretch goals, but I just don't get the love for these (or most) goblins. They have cartoonishly big noses (when did that become a goblin "thing"?) and look like they should be trying to eat all the Fraggles. Someone please explain it to me, as you would a child.

I do hope the KS is a big success.

AMAZING!

wish I didn't miss out on Tre's first KS

 RiTides wrote:

I'm a little bummed about the pledge levels, because there's no way to get lots of bonebacks and no runty gobs without just paying for individual sets. But I think I'll come around on it

Assuming that the KS gets to larger levels beyond the goblins, it might happen. It's also a possibility that Tre will look over the requests and make an "all-specials" pledge level.

I wanted to see the models in more detail, maybe some inked unpainted versions or something but my jaw literally hit the floor when I saw that photo... These minis are breathtakingly... well, mini! Considering the size the details are very impressive!

These might be a decent complementary purchase for the Stonehaven Gnomes too

edit: Source with more pics can be viewed here http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?48052

Nice pic! And yeah, wow the "runty gobs" really are runty!

The bonebacks, on the other hand, are as large as "normal" fantasy goblins (but that's because they're hulking brutes for Tre ).

Only $55 to go till it's funded!

Like the looks of this but can't understand a word of the lesser rank/ solo options gobbledegook on the KS page - can anyone on here translate the following utterly confusing ramble to plain-spoken English please?

Supporters at this level will receive their choice of any two ( 2 ) lesser ranks and their choice of any two ( 2 ) solo options. Options available for selection within this reward group are limited to the Goblin Horde sets.
Your pledge corresponds to a specific reward level. Thus far the rewards for this campaign are structured by dividing the different goal products into Solos, Lesser Ranks, and Special Ranks. Each goal product is described in it's funding pitch as either a Solo option, lesser rank option or Special rank option. When a funding goal is reached the goal product then becomes available for selection as a reward for your contribution. So for instance if you pledge to the Raiding Party level you automatically receive 12 goblin spear men, and 6 archers and then you can choose to select either another unit of 12 spear men or if the funding goal has been reached a unit of the footmen, or the bonebacks.
The Spearmen are selectable as lesser ranks option with each rank consisting of 2 sets of the 6 figures pictured above in each rank. The Archers are available together as a solo option with all three figures pictured above counting as 1 solo option.

I wanna know how many gobbos I get for how much money and whether or not they have pointy sticks, bows or spears. Say I want 40 spears, 40 bows, 40 swords - how much would that cost me and is it even possible to buy it?

Can't be arsed with figuring out all the rest of it... it looks like I can have 12 goblins that have to be a certain type, but then I get get some other goblins of my choice, but only if I get some other goblin to go with them?

I swear some of these KS campaign runners deliberately try to make things as confusing as possible.

Sure

Lesser Ranks:
12 Runty Gob Spearmen (6 sculpts, 2 of each)
12 Runty Gob Footmen

Special Ranks:
12 Bonebacks
4 Wolf Riders

Solos:
3 Runty Gob Archers
Any single character sculpt

So, for example I chose the $165 pledge, and the $115 pledge (+$5 and +$3 for shipping, respectively). This gives me:

5 Lesser Ranks (60 gobbos to mix between spearmen and footmen)
5 Special Ranks (will probably get 24 bonebacks and the rest wolf riders)
8 Solos (will use 7 of these to get 21 archers, and then add a few bucks to get the characters at $5 apiece)

It takes a little getting used to but once you do it's not that bad, honest!

Note: All of the above are including not-yet-unlocked models, but I think everyone is probably doing this since most things still need to unlock. Obviously, if something didn't unlock I'd just have to get more of the others, but I'm pretty confident we'll get through all of the gobbos, and hopefully more!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's funded

Thanks for the translation, seems a bit too rich for my taste unfortunately, a lot of the pricing seems closer to what you'd generally pay for metals rather than plastics.

I'm very much in the market for a "bucket o' gobbos" KS, and the sculpts are nice enough, but this doesn't quite offer enough value for me to get a proper horde going, and the options seem restrictive.

Cool project though.

Well, for $165 you could get 36 spearmen/footmen gobbos, 36 bonebacks, and 15 archers (if you use all the solo options for archers).

That's 87 gobbos, at less than $1.90 per model.

The base add-on price for the spearmen/footmen gobbos is just over $2.00 per model if you want to add individual sets, or just under $3.00 per model for bonebacks.

I was bummed about that until I looked to find metal bonebacks for less than that, and came up empty (with the exception of FRP's sale over the holidays, although their current sale puts it about at the same as the KS).

It's not a complete steal, but RBG models never are- you're paying for quality over quantity. It's good enough to get me onboard and I love the new footmen.

I'll be shooting to have 40 footmen, 20 spearmen, 20 archers, and 40 bonebacks (counting the metal ones I have now) and 10 wolf riders with a few mounted character conversions. These are going to be hobgoblins for a chaos dwarf army for me, though, so this is more than enough.

Cheers for the explanation RiTides, you make it a lot simpler to work out!

Really, really, really keen to see what these Wolf Riders will end up looking like as the concept never fails to capture my imagination! I've also been exploring the Red Box website, some truly magnificent looking figs, can't wait to see this project pick up a bit of steam now!

Fellow pledgers, lend me your ears! I feel there must be quite a few of us at the $165 pledge level, which gives the option of 5 lesser ranks. I can't be the only one who is planning to get 24 of one, and 36 of the other. Wouldn't it be so much cooler to have 20 and 40, instead?

Therefore, I propose that one of you fine gentlemen, who lives in the US, PM me and accept my 4 extra spearmen for your 4 extra footmen to be traded when the shipments arrive, of course.

I also have cookies.

@Scrub, No problem and agreed!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love his other sculpts, and look forward to some of the stretch goals, but I just don't get the love for these (or most) goblins. They have cartoonishly big noses (when did that become a goblin "thing"?) and look like they should be trying to eat all the Fraggles. Someone please explain it to me, as you would a child.

I do hope the KS is a big success.

Because they're some of the best sculpts on the planet. That's why people that own Tre's goblins are going fething nuts over this. Like I am.
Seriously, throw in a pledge and get some and you won't be disappointed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Thanks for the translation, seems a bit too rich for my taste unfortunately, a lot of the pricing seems closer to what you'd generally pay for metals rather than plastics.

I'm very much in the market for a "bucket o' gobbos" KS, and the sculpts are nice enough, but this doesn't quite offer enough value for me to get a proper horde going, and the options seem restrictive.

Cool project though.

SS, the $25-for-12 for the spearmen & swordsmen, and $5-for-3 for archers is quite a deal. I got my 36 metal spearmen at 40% off and they were like $80; so this is around half the cost of metals. Those 36 spearmen became a sharpstick horde for KoW Unless Mantic somehow remolds/remakes their goblins with all weapon options on a crisp well designed hard plastic sprue, Tre's goblins are about the cheapest and best quality you'll find. I really think you should try them out even with a lower level pledge; they really are fantastic models.

He also just posted an update, and seems to be implying that the price might drop a bit on the bonebacks (which are the expensive part) when they fund / he adds a pledge level for them. Also some other interesting tidbits!

Update #1 FUNDED!!!!! wrote:WOOO HOOO!!!

Thanks guys! What a way to wake up!

Goblin spearmen and Archers are IN!! Now we move on the footmen which are pictured in WIP stage in the kickstarter page. These figure will be modularly fitted for universally interchangeable weapons and shields. There will be a sprue of 6 weapon types and 3 shield types produced with these figures. The weapons will cast in metal and two spreus of them will be included in the set. The shields will be cast in trollcast and 4 sprues will be included in the set.

Ok Business first.... A few questions have come up and I figured it would be worthwhile to post my answers her in an update......

Answers;

Bonebacks only pledge??.................. Yes, there will be one, but we have to get there. Once the bonebacks are funded then we will be on to the Solos, if Gore Fang funds ( he is WIP at the moment ) then I will also start working on a war staff to go with him and I would LIKE to make a set of Boneback spear throwers as well. And then of course there is also Bloodmaw and Horsebane. If it looks like these will make it in then I will create a new pledge level for a bonebacks only army and the prices will reflect the volume. I had to set these prices according to what is available and needing retool. Once that is out of the way we can move on to the rest.

Sticker Shock??................. This was one of the reasons this was held up for so long. The prices for the metals were lower than then should have been, and The Troll brothers had recently been reduced to help sell through the resins that I had left over. I had to price these so that they would fund themselves and that I would make some profit, but also I had to price them in such a way that I could afford to lower the price as items were added in to the give the pledge levels value. My cost does not reduce with volume BUT I think it is worthwhile to make less profit on the goblins so that other items in the line can be profitable.

Where are the Dvergr?........................ Hopefully we will see the Dvergr foray into the DookWolds to rescue our beleagured heroes from the goblin menace. I would REALLY love to have them retooled ASAP as I they are by far my most favourite race to work on and would benefit most from the transition to plastic.

Aenglish??................... Yes VERY much hopefully so. I want to try to get a few or all of them in here as well. Goblins first though. Shipping costs; Unfortunately yes this is required. The margins are tight already and I have learned from the costs incurred by shipping incidentals on the previous kickstarter that when these campaigns go nuts the shipping costs can LEAP to heights that become very expensive. I tried to set the shipping charge to ONLY cover the materials needed for shipping and postage costs themselves though so as to keep it as affordable as possible.

Thank you guys SO very much for your support thus far. I am very excited for the success of this campaign and to get more of the RBG Trollcast product on to your gaming and painting tables.

Cheers y'all!!

Tre'

RiTides has done a good job of translating what you get here, but I'll stick up the version I did for myself anyway as it shows the funding levels needed for each batch of goblins to unlock,

and also shows where the discounts are

SOLOS ($5)
Runty Gob Archers (3 figures) Unlocked
Dogsbane (1 figures) 30K
Black Tongue (1 figures) 30K
Gore Fang (1 figures) 30K
Crowbiter (1 figures) ?

LESSER RANKS ($25)
Runty Gob Spearmen (12 figures) Unlocked
Runty Gob Foorment (12 figures) 15K

SPECIAL RANKS ($35)
Goblin Bonebacks A (12 figures) 25K
The Troll Brothers (2 figures) 40K
Runty Gob Wolf Riders A (4 figures) ?

$30 level, no saving
$55 level, saves $5
$90 level, saves $10
$115 level, saves $20
$165 level, saves $40

I wonder at what point the aenglish and dvergir will come in - I know Tre wants to avoid the big slow down from last KS when we switched back and forth in focus. But he'll have a pretty solid goblin line in plastic by $40k.

Right after that, I bet. He's showing pretty much the whole goblin line including the new wolfrider sculpts; I would say the first stretch after that.

 judgedoug wrote:
SS, the $25-for-12 for the spearmen & swordsmen, and $5-for-3 for archers is quite a deal. I got my 36 metal spearmen at 40% off and they were like $80; so this is around half the cost of metals. Those 36 spearmen became a sharpstick horde for KoW Unless Mantic somehow remolds/remakes their goblins with all weapon options on a crisp well designed hard plastic sprue, Tre's goblins are about the cheapest and best quality you'll find. I really think you should try them out even with a lower level pledge; they really are fantastic models.

I think "which side of the pond you're on" matters a lot here.

$25 = $16.82 = £1.32/model.
Mantic's metals are £1.50/model, factor in the discount sellers and they come in cheaper and with more choice to buy exactly what I want.

Of course, even getting metals from Mantic is a little too rich for my taste, so I'm continuing to wait on the goblin army until something a little more wallet-friendly comes along.

The $165 pledge gets you a bit better per figure deal about 1.20 GBP per fig. ( 87 figs total if you take archers / bonebacks).

Re: Bucket of Gobbos - totally understandable. You might be best served by reaper bones when those come in? I can't recall what goblins made it into the KS other than the paizo ones.

I love his other sculpts, and look forward to some of the stretch goals, but I just don't get the love for these (or most) goblins. They have cartoonishly big noses (when did that become a goblin "thing"?) and look like they should be trying to eat all the Fraggles. Someone please explain it to me, as you would a child.

I do hope the KS is a big success.

Why I like the fraggle goblins:

1) They look a bit scandahoovian. I like Scandinavian folk art, especially the stuff by John Bauer (for ex: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/John_Bauer_1915.jpg). These look like the scary version of the children's stuff.

2) They are the right scale for me. I play rpgs not wargames, so having goblins actually be small compared to the PCs is good. One goblin by itself doesn't look too scary. A pack of 6 or 12 starts looking like a credible threat.

3) Due to the way Tre sculpts muscles and gear and what not, they are actually very easy to paint and have look good.

A long comment from Tre on the KS page:

Tre Manor wrote:Hey guys!
Tokens system.... this was the original system I was going to use. The problem was in not being able to predict how high the funding would go and which items would be unlocked and what quantities I would need them in. I would have had to devise a basic value for everything that MIGHT get funded and then hope that my estimates panned out well. It just seemed too easy fro me to screw up with one or two math errors.
This way I can make pledge levels for exactly what I have funded thus far and I can react to changes in the system with more agility and predictability. With oru bonebacks, when they are unlocked I can then reasonably expect that there will be certain people who will want ONLY those and being that they are funded I can then be safe to introduce a Bonebacks only pledge level or Special ranks only pledges and lesser ranks only pledges. But until they are funded it does nto seem wise to start taking money on them exclusively as if they were. Do nto worry i will work thigns out in such a way that will make you happy. I just want some certainty involved.
The last KS was a nightmare of uncertainty until after the Undead funded. Predictability makes discounting possible.
I have also considered creatign a " bucket O goblins " option that might have only one or two of the sculpts from the spear men or footmen in LOTS of multiples. It is ONLY an idea right now though.
Runty gobs war staff.... yes this sounds liek a great idea, BUT I want to fund what we have discussed thus far first.... and I want to get a witch's coven in there too.
Aenglish and Dvergr.... yes I DEFINITELY want to get them in here sooner rather than later. I think that possibly we might be able to fit in a group of Dvergr between CrowBiter and Bloodmaw and Horsebane, and then perhaps a few Aenglish between Bloodmaw and Horsebane and the Bonebacks spear throwers.
More Archers...... Yeh that is something I have wanted to do for quite a while.

So it looks like stretch goals beyond what are listed on the main page (the last of which is CrowBiter) may alternate between Dvergr, more goblin stuff, and Aenglish. For example:

Crowbiter
Dverger
Bloodmaw and Horsebane
Aenglish
Bonebacks spear throwers
etc

Hopefully we make it . I would've liked to see more early unlocks to get momentum, but it is over $7K already.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Size comparison of the various sculpts, from the RBG forums (but not the footmen since they're new, see Tre's comment below).

Patrik Ström wrote:Some size comparison shots.

From left to right: one of the spearmen goblins, dog's bane, a boneback, RBG dvaergr, a RBG Njorn and Rocklobber



From left to right: spearman goblin, a boneback, a reaper mini, a drak sword mini, a hasslefree mini and Rocklobber



From left to right: spearman goblin, a reaper pathfinder goblin, a reaper goblin (by Tre if I'm not mistaken), reaper dwarf and GW Dwarf

Also Tre's comment about size (particularly of the footmen, which are in between the spear goblins and the bonebacks in size):

Tre Manor wrote:The Bonebakcs are pretty big compared to the archers and spearmen but the footmen are a little closer to Dvergr size. They are still compatible but there is slight difference in size between the footmen and spear men. I think partly because of the cloaks on the footmen. It makes then appear more substantial but not nearly so burly as the bonebacks.

 scarletsquig wrote:
I'm very much in the market for a "bucket o' gobbos" KS, and the sculpts are nice enough, but this doesn't quite offer enough value for me to get a proper horde going, and the options seem restrictive.

I think you missed that with the Reaper bones kickstarter, which had the Pathfinder Goblins for $1 per model.

 judgedoug wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I love his other sculpts, and look forward to some of the stretch goals, but I just don't get the love for these (or most) goblins. They have cartoonishly big noses (when did that become a goblin "thing"?) and look like they should be trying to eat all the Fraggles. Someone please explain it to me, as you would a child.
I do hope the KS is a big success.

Because they're some of the best sculpts on the planet. That's why people that own Tre's goblins are going fething nuts over this. Like I am.
Seriously, throw in a pledge and get some and you won't be disappointed.

I'm not a fan of Tre's goblins, actually. When I did my large orders, long before all this KS business was talked about, they were the range I skipped over entirely. If you like the particular aesthetic of them - kinda like GW's ones taken to an extreme, then I'm sure they're fantastic, as Tre' is a sculptor with the ability to put in lots of fine details.

 judgedoug wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Thanks for the translation, seems a bit too rich for my taste unfortunately, a lot of the pricing seems closer to what you'd generally pay for metals rather than plastics.

I'm very much in the market for a "bucket o' gobbos" KS, and the sculpts are nice enough, but this doesn't quite offer enough value for me to get a proper horde going, and the options seem restrictive.

Cool project though.

SS, the $25-for-12 for the spearmen & swordsmen, and $5-for-3 for archers is quite a deal. I got my 36 metal spearmen at 40% off and they were like $80; so this is around half the cost of metals. Those 36 spearmen became a sharpstick horde for KoW Unless Mantic somehow remolds/remakes their goblins with all weapon options on a crisp well designed hard plastic sprue, Tre's goblins are about the cheapest and best quality you'll find. I really think you should try them out even with a lower level pledge; they really are fantastic models.

Just be aware that compared to GW's goblins (or anything else!) they are fething tiny. Look at that pic with the space marine. You could use them as snotlings or gnoblars with a GW-sized force. The bonebacks are the ones that could fit in with a GW-sized force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If there's a price break down the line on the Bonebacks (and I get my KS1 stuff) I may go in for a small number of them. I'm not after an army or anything in particular. They'd just be something to paint and support Tre' with.

Yeah, the bonebacks fit right in with GW-scale goblins. The runty gob spearmen are tiny, but I kinda want some tiny ones to mix in

I'm hoping that once I see them in-person I'll like them even more. Tre's stuff seems to be so small that it's hard to photograph well, and I don't think he's the best photographer . When I saw the bonebacks in-person, I liked them SO much more (Love them!) and I am betting the same will be true for the regular gobbos.

Oh, I know they're tiny, I have 36 metal spearmen. But they're so good; I haven't gone ga-ga over sculpts in such a long time. There's just something super special about his goblins that make me just happy owning them. Maybe they're coated in drugs or something. I want more. MORE! Giant hordes of RBG gobbos...

Yep, I've seen that reaction a lot

His new goblin footmen are really good. Love 'em.

I'm excited to get some of this swag, but I'm a little concerned about the Goblin Spearmen. Those spears are going to have extremely thin hafts, and I could easily imagine a lot of them breaking en route in resin. They'd need careful packing and even after they get to you, they'd need careful handling to avoid any breakage during use. I may just pick up the footmen and archers instead.

Yeah, I asked about that in the comments. The footmen weapons will be metal, I can't imagine he won't see the need to do those spears in metal, too (or the whole tiny model ). Hopefully Tre will confirm about that.

Whoops! I must have deleted that fromt he description. Yeh the Goblin spear hafts will be cast in metal There will be a socket at the top of the leading hand where the shaft will " plug " into.

Cheers guys!

Tre'

What a fast response thanks Tre!

Hmm of you're doing them that way then it should be fairly simple to re-do them as a unit of Runty goblin 2-handed axe wielders

That means an excuse to get 2 units of them

excellent (ebay permitting)

Awesome!

Man. Now I have to decide how much to drop on this. I like the models enough to drop a sizeable chunk, and this news makes me even happier. Oh dear.
I also want to keep something back for the Dwarf stuff, when it comes along.



Edit: I think I want 24 of each type of infantry, and 8 of the wolf riders, with whatever's left over in heroes and stuff. I already have Crowbiter in metal (and lovely he is, too).
So. If I got the $165 pledge, that'd get me:
-24 Spearmen
-12 Footmen (when Funded)
-15 Archers
-24 Bonebacks (when Funded)
-4 Wolf Riders

So I'd have to add another $60, $10 for shipping, and then I'd be up to what I want, pretty much.

Are the wolf riders currently available anyhow? Or are they a stretch goal?

RIght now they are stretch goal number 6, after the troll brothers. No dollar value assigned to them yet.

Ah, okay. I was confused by the lack of dollar value so I thought maybe they were already available.

Yep, that looks like a nice distribution for the $165 pledge Da Boss . I think that's why Tre has done it this way- being able to know most folks will get a range of things, since that's the best deal, helps him estimate quantities. I think I've been convinced and will get a variety, since who wants to paint the same models over and over...

He will be adding a specialist (or perhaps bonebacks-specific) pledge level later for those who just want those, though!

 tre manor wrote:


Whoops! I must have deleted that fromt he description. Yeh the Goblin spear hafts will be cast in metal There will be a socket at the top of the leading hand where the shaft will " plug " into.

Cheers guys!

Tre'

Wait. I thought the KS was intended to move to plastic, right?

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 tre manor wrote:


Whoops! I must have deleted that fromt he description. Yeh the Goblin spear hafts will be cast in metal There will be a socket at the top of the leading hand where the shaft will " plug " into.

Cheers guys!

Tre'

Wait. I thought the KS was intended to move to plastic, right?

Speaking from experience, Spears/Pole Weapons are terribly difficult to cast properly in resin/restic.

Yep, and the goblins themselves will be trollcast, just not the spear shafts.

Past 10K! Although the thread title edit beat me nice to see it being kept current

I think I've worked out what I want to do with these guys. I'm going to put little magnets under their bases so that I can attach them to "diorama" style regiment trays for WFB or KoW or WOTR, and get some 25mm circular mantic bases to slot them into for LOTR SBG. Then I've got a force that can be used across 5 systems!

Da Boss wrote:
I think I've worked out what I want to do with these guys. I'm going to put little magnets under their bases so that I can attach them to "diorama" style regiment trays for WFB or KoW or WOTR, and get some 25mm circular mantic bases to slot them into for LOTR SBG. Then I've got a force that can be used across 5 systems!

You sure? It looks as if the 15mm you'd have to base them on to fit round mantic bases might be a bit small even for these models "and feet overhanging edges do not mix well with textured trays/outer bases).

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 tre manor wrote:


Whoops! I must have deleted that fromt he description. Yeh the Goblin spear hafts will be cast in metal There will be a socket at the top of the leading hand where the shaft will " plug " into.

Cheers guys!

Tre'

Wait. I thought the KS was intended to move to plastic, right?

Brass rods and plastic heads would be ideal.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 tre manor wrote:


Whoops! I must have deleted that fromt he description. Yeh the Goblin spear hafts will be cast in metal There will be a socket at the top of the leading hand where the shaft will " plug " into.

Cheers guys!

Tre'

Wait. I thought the KS was intended to move to plastic, right?

After some problems with breakage for the Helsvakt weapons of the last KS, the weapons will be cast in metal while the rest of the figure is plastic.

 Bolognesus wrote:

Da Boss wrote:
I think I've worked out what I want to do with these guys. I'm going to put little magnets under their bases so that I can attach them to "diorama" style regiment trays for WFB or KoW or WOTR, and get some 25mm circular mantic bases to slot them into for LOTR SBG. Then I've got a force that can be used across 5 systems!

You sure? It looks as if the 15mm you'd have to base them on to fit round mantic bases might be a bit small even for these models "and feet overhanging edges do not mix well with textured trays/outer bases).

"Diorama style" regiment trays I believe means not packed together but in a formation/scene/spread out/ etc. This is perfect for KoW since you don't have to remove casualties- a player at our store did this with his elves and it's great

I kno - i multibase all my kow stuff. I mean those feet wont sit flush with texture on the base. I found the idea a big hassle for my daemons idea back then. Still, if it works for you

Wait, is Trollcast a different kind of plastic? Is this not just the same type of plastic as GW and the new DFG figures?

Totally down with metal weapons, by the way, provided that they are easily attached. The issue with hybrids from GW and other manufacturers has always been that it's tough to get them to go together.

 Scottywan82 wrote:
Wait, is Trollcast a different kind of plastic? Is this not just the same type of plastic as GW and the new DFG figures?

No, its closer to the Restic that Mantic uses rather then injection molded hard plastic.

Little bit OT, but has RBG ever expressed an interest in fleshing out their dwarves to a full range?

I like true-scale dwarves, my current favourites are the LotR dwarf models, and RBG's seem very close to those in terms of scale.

Most manfacturers tend to make fat-barrel heroic scale dwarves, and that's the polar opposite of what I'm looking for.

I just came to the realisation that if this was a dwarf KS I'd be super-happy with the pricing on these since I wouldn't need a bucket of minis to make the army.

If the KS hits the dwarves, or if he does KS3 with dwarves, he has modular dwarf militia already. Shouldn't be too hard to get that to 6 or so different figs.




I also think there are a number of dwarf models that exist, but aren't on his webstore (because he sold out of them in metal) that could bulk out the line if turned into plastic. So his line is bigger than it looks on the website. Not sure how many figs are out of production though.

For ex, this guy:

I don't have any money to support this project, but I wish I had! Incredible miniatures, nice price and all in all a great thing to support!

Yeah, he has a lot of Dvergr sculpts- he needs to compile / post pics somewhere for things no longer in his webstore (most things!). They may be next in this KS, too, he is torn between them and the rest of the Aenglish.

I am beginning to think that the Aenglish may need their own dedicated campaign as so many people seem to want Aenglish Cavalry and archers and such.

As for Dvergr..... yes they are going in to this campaign if the funding goes over the Crowbiter mark. but we have to get there first.

There are 25 dwarves in the line right now and I intend to expand them through the KS campaign. Ideally this campaign would fund a set of 6 modular unique Dwarf footmen, a set of 4 berserkers, a set of 4 cavalry ( not silly at all to my mind ) and a set of 4 archers and a few new characters, plus all of what is in there now.

I recieved 122 more copies of Yrsa yesterday and there are some 200 more on their way today. So by the time the KS ends almost everyone who backed SHOULD have at least most of their KS reward.

Hmmm. I love your Dvergr models, and would definitely be interested in a kickstarter involving them.

Whether I'd have the money to commit at this point would be another thing. Jan\Feb is a lean time for a lot of people and I'd probably want to get all the Dvergr.

I think I will bite the bullet and back tonight when I get home.

I know this is your own world and vision, but I think it is really fortunate for you that GW just released their Hobbit SBG in the same scale, for drastically OTT prices. I was doing price comparisons on your Goblins vs. GW's moria goblins, and it really doesn't come out in GW's favour, especially considering the difference in quality. It's always nice to have a game to plug the miniatures into!

I will certainly be recommending RBG for Middle Earth skirmish players.

Thanks Boos!

There it is again . Nickname time, "Boos"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update on the KS page:

Tre Manor wrote:Hey Y'all,

Seems a lot of backers are looking to make an entire army out of bonebacks or wolf riders so to make things more efficient for these backers and would-be backers I have posted a new set of rewards specifically priced and worded for the special ranks options. I think I have covered the possibilities well but I am as always open to suggestions as we move this campaign forward. Today I am working on packing orders from the previous KS campaign and getting them to the PO for shipment AND I am also working on the sculpts for Gorefang and the new Crowbiter. I believe in my goblins and in your enthusiasm for them so I think it is a safe bet to get going on the front end work now. It is my FERVENT hope that we can move this campaign alogn far enough to include the retool of the Dvergr line as well. As many of them as possible!

Cheers Y'all!

Tre'

Aenglish horsemen and archers would be ace. :p The Aenglish need to bulked out considering we've already got the footmen and characters.

All right, I'm not a particularily good painter or photographer, but I have some shots of the metal goblins:

OooOOOOoOoOo!! hell YEH!! Thanks Czakk!

Those guys are looking good! Thanks for posting those photos. I have never ranked up my goblins because I mostly use them for skirmish games, but I expect that they would look excellent all ranked up, especially the runty goblins with spears!

New pledge levels are nice, thanks for the options! But you already convinced me to get some of everything

Tre' -

Hob Gobs, Lots and Lots!............Supporters at this level will receive three ( 3 )special ranks, and one (1) lesser rank, and (3) solo options. Options available for selection within this reward group are limited to the Goblin Horde sets. Please include $5.00 for domestic shipping and $10.00 for international shipping.

Not sure why you're limiting this to goblins only? If I go in on this KS, I'd be looking at Bonebacks, perhaps wolf riders, and more of your excellent dwarves. It just seems pointlessly restrictive, since you ideally want people pledging as much as possible...

Are those wraiths still likely to be a stretch goal on this one?

 scipio.au wrote:
Tre' -

Hob Gobs, Lots and Lots!............Supporters at this level will receive three ( 3 )special ranks, and one (1) lesser rank, and (3) solo options. Options available for selection within this reward group are limited to the Goblin Horde sets. Please include $5.00 for domestic shipping and $10.00 for international shipping.

Not sure why you're limiting this to goblins only? If I go in on this KS, I'd be looking at Bonebacks, perhaps wolf riders, and more of your excellent dwarves. It just seems pointlessly restrictive, since you ideally want people pledging as much as possible...

Are those wraiths still likely to be a stretch goal on this one?

I was thinking about it too.
Could it be that dvergr and aenglish units and heroes will have different pricing? While for example 4-5 dollar difference per unit might not seem a big deal when looking at a single order, when you multiply it by hundreds of orders and a number of units in an order you can easily get to thousands. Now if that is profit then fine, you certainly don't want that number to be loss though.
I really liked the flexibility of last kickstarter. In the end I got a piece of everything so I did not need to trade except for riders. And that is my plan for this KS too so I'm happy with pledge levels.

I guess Tre can only work on a limited amount of stuff at a time, so I am okay with this Kickstarter being just Goblins. If there was another for Dwarves, I would probably go in on it. If this one goes on to Dwarves, I'll have to think hard about it, because at this time I am saving money to move house and the investment I'd make would be significant in terms of my income.

I didn't pledge last night, but only because I'm waiting for the funds to drop into my prepaid visa account.

Scipio, all of the pledges say "limited to Goblin Horde sets". He'll add more pledge levels if the Dvergr unlock, and you can choose more than one. Not saying it's the best solution, but you can get some of everything if you wish (I wonder if he'll even do a "mixed" Goblin/Dvergr pledge level at that time).

It has slowed down (just passed 12K) but honestly even if only the footmen and bonebacks unlocked, I'd be happy as I am after lots of unique sculpts and they provide that. The next thing I really crave is the wolf riders but their level isn't revealed yet.

 scipio.au wrote:
Tre' -

Hob Gobs, Lots and Lots!............Supporters at this level will receive three ( 3 )special ranks, and one (1) lesser rank, and (3) solo options. Options available for selection within this reward group are limited to the Goblin Horde sets. Please include $5.00 for domestic shipping and $10.00 for international shipping.

Not sure why you're limiting this to goblins only? If I go in on this KS, I'd be looking at Bonebacks, perhaps wolf riders, and more of your excellent dwarves. It just seems pointlessly restrictive, since you ideally want people pledging as much as possible...

Are those wraiths still likely to be a stretch goal on this one?

Bonebacks and wolf riders are Goblin Horde sets.

I MAY move the heroes a round a bit to help this campaign move. I am working on the math.

Teh Wolfriders will probably move ahead of the Trolls as I think the Wolf Riders will help the trolls more than the trolls coudl help the riders.

Scipio, I wanted to try to keep thigns as clear as possible so thus far there are only goblins to choose from. When ( BIG IF at this point ) we make ti to Dvergr there will be specific pledge levels for them as well based on the possibilities and pricing and a set fo mixed pledge rewards as well. Right now we are just focusing on moving through the goblin goals first. As soon as we move past the Bonebacks I will be posting new stretch goals

What if you don't want goblins? I think it was a mistake to offer just the Goblins. It may have been better to offer part of the other 2-3 factions to get the $$$ moving and get people invested into the KS. Some people like Dwarves and some probably like the elves. I have a $165 pledge but honestly I am not feeling it like I was for the last KS. I will probably reduce it to a much lower level before the KS ends. I don't think the goblins are popular enough to carry this KS like the HelsVakt did for the last KS.

I wonder about that too. Last time, I didn't go near the actual helsVakt and got a smattering of Aenglish and Undead instead. I love these goblins, so I am happy to get a pile of them (tbh I would get a pile of anything Tre produces).

Perhaps it was hard to organise and ensure delivery for a diverse bunch of orders without delays (which really piss people off)?

I backed, anyhow. Really hoping we get to the Wolves! If so I will be putting some more in.

Also getting KS1 orders fulfilled will likely bring in fence sitters.

Moving heroes around as intermediates, and moving wolf riders ahead of trolls both sounds great!!

I'm biased, because I already have the Troll Brothers, but I would love to see some stuff about the Wolf Riders. I think it could get a good buzz going, too.

I have to say I am very excited about this Kickstarter and I'm not normally into these things.

Again apologies for the crap photowork and the paintjobs.

Some gobbos face off with some gnolls invading their cave:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So does anyone have pics of their bonebacks? I know a bunch of people have some.

Nice photos!

I finally got the bonebacks I didn't have ("pack B") so I will try to get a pic of all of them

Hm, ok. I guess I was going off now-outdated info where the KS was for several lines as well as the goblins from the get-go.

For those of you who are backers, lots of avatars posted by a fan here:

http://red-box-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=164.msg3041#msg3041

I'm backing this; those goblins look pretty fun. I hope it picks up the pace, though, cause I'm really, really hoping we also get some Aenglish in on this Kickstarter

Anyone got any scale comparisons for the Helsvakht two hand weapon guys? I think they're displayed on 20mm round bases, just want to see how they do against other figure out there.

I may well back this, but not until my KS1 stuff arrives...

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Anyone got any scale comparisons for the Helsvakht two hand weapon guys? I think they're displayed on 20mm round bases, just want to see how they do against other figure out there.

Not sure how many people have actually received them, as it appears that the majority of KS1 orders were held up.

The campaign seems to have stalled a little. Certainly flattened out to almost nothing after the spike on day two and the tail of it on the third/forth days. The KS1 issue doubtless has a lot to do with it, but I also think it's because there are no "freebie" stretch goals, just "unlocks" to allow people to pay for more things. On top of that, the interesting things like the Bonebacks, trolls, wolfriders etc are miles away - leaving only runty goblins, which are tiny and a bit niche. Can't expect people to pledge for things that might not make it. Particularly in a KS that's already funded... Bonebacks should have been first cab off the rank, since they seem to be the most popular thing in the goblin range - though I'm sure Tre knows his sales figures better than anyone else.

Well I honestly thought the footmen would be more popular than the bonebacks.

I have shipped 250 some odd orders and will be shipping a load more today......unfortunately though I simply cannot afford to do the double shipment thing as I had hoped I would. The postal service has DRASTICALLY increased their prices lately. Such that I am going to be some $4,000.00 over budget in shipping as it is now. If I tried to ship twice I would literally not enough money to do it.



Freebies....... cannot do them. I have priced these things as low as possible and giving anything away is just going to be counter productive. If the value is not there as is then it just is what it is I am afraid. I wish it was but.........

Actually I am already losing money on this new kickstarter because of the shipping costs. :/

I am sorry this has not gone well guys. Believe me that there is no one more disappointed by the development of the KS fulfillment than I am.

 Fenriswulf wrote:
Anyone got any scale comparisons for the Helsvakht two hand weapon guys? I think they're displayed on 20mm round bases, just want to see how they do against other figure out there.

Nono, Helsvakt are on 25mm. The zombies and gobbos are on 20mm round bases. The one Helsvakt Hordseman I own (Bloody Garm) fits end to end on a 25mm square base - one foot is flush with one side and the other foot is flush with the other side. Helsvakt are NOT small, they are huge for 28mm scale - think Conan sized. Obviously they are smaller than GW's 9' tall chaos warriors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tre manor wrote:

I have shipped 250 some odd orders and will be shipping a load more today......unfortunately though I simply cannot afford to do the double shipment thing as I had hoped I would. The postal service has DRASTICALLY increased their prices lately. Such that I am going to be some $4,000.00 over budget in shipping as it is now. If I tried to ship twice I would literally not enough money to do it.

I am sorry this has not gone well guys. Believe me that there is no one more disappointed by the development of the KS fulfillment than I am.

If you haven't sent my first chunk of KS1 then I don't mind waiting til the horsemen are done and you sending it all at once.

And I personally will be pledging more into KS2; it depends on ebay sales!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tre, I just checked the Kicktraq for both of your campaigns. It looks like the goblins are on par with the Helsvakt. In fact, after the first 4 days on the Helsvakt there was a period of at least a week of 0 to 3 pledges per day, and that wound up coming in at almost 80k!

I have not yet lost confidence in the goblins. I am sure we will fund at least everything listed thus far. I guess the Dvergr may just have to wait for their own KS campaign. We will see though.

Tre, as I posted on the KS comments

"Let's say we don't make it past the goblins. Is that so bad? Tre gets the goblins transitioned over, it's easier to manage without all the new sculpts, and then in a few months he can do the Dvergr KS.

I mean, really, it's already been funded 250% and there's still over three weeks left."

Although I prefer the Footmen myself, the consensus seems to be that the Bonebacks are more popular. I'd expect some more momentum when we get closer to funding them.

I'm sorry to hear you're losing money on the shipping and so on. The postal price raises couldn't have come at a worse time.

I would be happiest with another KS for Dvergr and Aenglish, because it would mean dropping less money all at once. I don't like to spend so much on miniatures in a short time.

 tre manor wrote:
Well I honestly thought the footmen would be more popular than the bonebacks.

I have shipped 250 some odd orders and will be shipping a load more today......unfortunately though I simply cannot afford to do the double shipment thing as I had hoped I would. The postal service has DRASTICALLY increased their prices lately. Such that I am going to be some $4,000.00 over budget in shipping as it is now. If I tried to ship twice I would literally not enough money to do it.

Freebies....... cannot do them. I have priced these things as low as possible and giving anything away is just going to be counter productive. If the value is not there as is then it just is what it is I am afraid. I wish it was but.........

Actually I am already losing money on this new kickstarter because of the shipping costs. :/
I am sorry this has not gone well guys. Believe me that there is no one more disappointed by the development of the KS fulfillment than I am.

I'm personally not worried about freebies (I've not backed this KS at this stage) but it's a key component of all the Kickstarters that make a killing. It's pretty much a matter of trimming any profits down to the bone and just paying for the retooling - I guess the problem there is that you no longer have much in the store at all and still need to eat and pay bills, etc.

Basically, in my opinion you've been severely screwed over by the conversion to Trollcast in several ways - In terms of discontinuing your old ranges and cutting off your previous income stream, to the number of screwups and delays (the first KS is now hitting the 4th month of overdue) so you have neither replacement stock for the webstore or retailers, nor will you able to fulfil the original KS orders before this one finishes - which means this KS is going to take in a LOT less than it might have. Ed's worker being sick and the endless casting issues have dragged this one months over time, and now, as mentioned, the USPS has raised prices dramatically. Being beholden to Ed's schedule window for creating the moulds for your figures, while also needing to wait on him to get the figures finished has forced you to start a new KS before the first one is actually finished, and pushed your KS1 ship date into a new postal price band.

I have nothing against Ed, he seems a very nice guy. But you've essentially dumped all your eggs into the one basket. If anything happens to Ed, you're proper fethed. You've already been kicked in the 'nads by the whole venture. If you have a supplier who still has the metal moulds, I'd be getting some stock in for the webstore. Before it was discontinued, your range was a lot bigger than the Helsvakt and the Goblins. Get some income coming back in, quicksmart - before this dead period kills your business.

One of the things that I find questionable is that Ed is doing molds and casting Impact's stuff and yet the RBG figs are all not done yet.

I suspect it's that Ed himself is the only one capable of handling the tricky RBG stuff (which is what's left) in terms of mould making

He'll also be training Brian and the new worker(s) he's hired/is hiring, but that will work better on simpler stuff at least to start with, perhaps some of impacts stuff

Brian can do casting now and maybe some of the simple mould makeing (again some of impacts stuff may fit this)

so it may well make sense to be finishing off Tre's stuff while making a start on Impacts (I think it's mainly masters/tests so far rather than full on casting)

I will likely be ordering in the Hellsvahkt guys when they become available. I really wish I had the cash for the original kickstarter, but wasn't able to at the time. Hope everything works out well for you Tre, you have some really cool sculpts for your stuff.

Hindsight is 20/20. I give kudos to Tre for taking a risk and going with trollcast. I am sure he has a pretty big learning curve to get up to speed with the new process. I think in the end everthing will work out. Just not in the time frame he predicted.

I agree with Scipio that Freebies have become almost mandatory for a very successful Kickstarter, but i also feel that including a ton of freebies doesn't always necessarily mean that the campaign will become larger success.

For example: Ed's alien assimilation KS gave away roughly 45 models with the $110 pledge level, while the Imbrian Arts KS included only 5 free models with the $110 pledge. Granted both campaigns did very well, (Ed's managed to hit 54k while Imbrian reached 62k.) I think it does show that quite a few people out there do prefer quality over quantity when it comes to KS freebies.

Since the campaign has stalled a little over the past few days, i think that Tre should consider moving the Wolf riders down to the 25k-35k stretch goal. And bumping the Troll brothers up to the 35k-45k goal. As for the goblin characters Dog's Bane, Gore Fang and Black Tongue, what about potentially using them as smaller goals that are in between the larger stretch goals? (E.g. a new character is unlocked at 20k, 30k, 40k.)

@Tre,
Is the model Einar March Warden Captain really being discontinued. or will she turn up in trollcast for the Aelfar KS? I've been a fan of that model for a while, and just panicked a little when i saw her in the discontinued section of your website...

Einar is a HE!

I will probably revisit that model. I have wanted to for quite a while. He should have been a single piece figure from the word go. I have learned a lot since then. When I revisit Einar I will be creating a unit of modular footmen to accompany him.

Reshuffling...... yeh maybe it is time to do that. With the number of contributors lost over the past 3 days we would have already gone over the 15 K mark.

Mahrdol wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20.

I've been saying all of that since before this KS went live.

Tre has shuffled the stretch goals a little. The footmen are now funded. Dogsbane and Blacktongue fund at 15k. Bonebacks stay at 25k. Wolfriders in at 35k, trolls at 45k and crowbiter at 50k.

Then I suppose it is on to the Dvergr.

New pledge options with savings break down and dollar value when models are unlocked:

SOLOS ($5)
Runty Gob Archers (3 figures) Unlocked
Dogsbane (1 figures) 15k
Black Tongue (1 figures) 15K
Gore Fang (1 figures) ?? (not mentioned anymore)
Crowbiter (1 figures) 50k

LESSER RANKS ($25)
Runty Gob Spearmen (12 figures) Unlocked
Runty Gob Foorment (12 figures) Unlocked

SPECIAL RANKS ($35)
Goblin Bonebacks A (12 figures) 25K
The Troll Brothers (2 figures) 45K
Runty Gob Wolf Riders A (4 figures) 35k

$30 level, no saving
$55 level, saves $5
$90 level, saves $10
$115 level, saves $20
$165 level, saves $40

There are two new pledge levels for folks interested mostly in the special ranks (trolls, bonebacks)

90 dollars - three special options, 2 solo - savings - $25
120 dollars - three special options, 3 solos, 1 lesser rank - savings - $25

Hopefully putting things "in sight" a little more will encourage some more pledges. I hope we reach the bonebacks and wolf riders!

Unlocking the footmen and the two heroes puts 15 new models up for grabs for me, so I'm happy.

The footmen are really awesome. I consider them really to be the best looking ones with the most character than any available goblin as of yet. They are really good.

Yeah, now that they're unlocked I've put forward a little more to get a regiment of them and a regiment of the speargobs.

Wolf riders at 35K, woot! We can get there by the end

czakk wrote:

$30 level, no saving
$55 level, saves $5
$90 level, saves $10
$115 level, saves $20
$165 level, saves $40

There are two new pledge levels for folks interested mostly in the special ranks (trolls, bonebacks)

90 dollars - three special options, 2 solo - savings - $25
120 dollars - three special options, 3 solos, 1 lesser rank - savings - $25

Those levels are interesting. Really, you don't really get any "benefit" from backing the KS over waiting and buying them from a 10% retailer (many who offer free shipping). In addition, you will have a wait of at least 2 months before you get your figures after paying for them. So basically the main/almost the only reason to back this KS is to be altruistic towards Tre and support his business.

Which is fine for what it is. But it's not going to move the earth or get the backing to fly particularly high. It's going to make those stretch goals a real stretch to get to as well.

Dreamforge wasn't much of a discount over Warstore prices (just revealed) but a great product will draw backers, and as has been pointed out, this isn't far from KS1 pace moneywise. Sending KS1 pledges will help too obviously!

Those levels are interesting. Really, you don't really get any "benefit" from backing the KS over waiting and buying them from a 10% retailer (many who offer free shipping).

I do not supply any discounters. Standing policy.

The rewards are structured in a way so as to allow me to offer a significant discount to people building armies ( which I assumed would be the majority of backers. ) and at least a moderate discount to all others. This is not injection cast plastic ( which literally costs pennies per cast ) it is cheaper than metal but it is still not super cheap.

Interesting that you don't supply to discounters. Why is that? I would buy direct when buying from a smaller outfit like yours but I thought you did supply to some other places like maelstrom? Or am I wrong?

I guess I don't look at the KS as being a way to get cheap miniatures, just a way to get the miniatures that I am interested in. It doesn't bother me that this campaign doesn't have freebies (though obviously if it did that would be cool) because I want these minis. Actually, I want the entire red box line bar HelsVakt I think!

I would like to see something from the Wolf Riders end of things though. I think it would drum up some more excitement. I'm definitely happy with the new organisation of the goals, since what I want is Speargobs, Footgobs, Archers, Hobgobs and Wolf gobs!

FRP Games had some so you don't (or didn't always have to buy direct.

Well, to be fair - no-one knew what the retail for the Dreamforge stuff was going to be until about 2 days ago (if that). The Warstore's discount seems to be a lot more than 10% as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tre manor wrote:

Those levels are interesting. Really, you don't really get any "benefit" from backing the KS over waiting and buying them from a 10% retailer (many who offer free shipping).

I do not supply any discounters. Standing policy.

The rewards are structured in a way so as to allow me to offer a significant discount to people building armies ( which I assumed would be the majority of backers. ) and at least a moderate discount to all others. This is not injection cast plastic ( which literally costs pennies per cast ) it is cheaper than metal but it is still not super cheap.

Depends who/what you consider a discounter. Most internet retailers do 10%, and your stuff was available at Maelstrom before the collapse (10%) and also FRP (who seem to discount most everything as well at various percentages) until they just cleared the metal at insane prices...

Pictures of the trollcast stuff 'in the wild' are starting to pop up:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=509357569114785&set=a.496764463707429.126957.161379913912554&type=3&theater

and a painted wolf:
http://imgur.com/fj2RZM1

Thanks Czakk.

Discounters...... Yeh I have a standing policy that any retailer who carries the line cannot discount any figures in the line for more than 20% off the MSRP for more than 72 consecutive hours more than once a year. If they break this rule I stop supplying them.

I supplied a distributor early in the game who's business never really justified the discount vs investment, AND I stopped all trade to any known discounters ass it was killing my business. I NEVER made more than break even on trade sales and my business was int he toilet the entire time. Within a month of discontinuing trade I was suddenly out of the red and actually turning a profit month to month.

Distro ONLY works when it is in large quantity.

 tre manor wrote:
Thanks Czakk.

Discounters...... Yeh I have a standing policy that any retailer who carries the line cannot discount any figures in the line for more than 20% off the MSRP for more than 72 consecutive hours more than once a year. If they break this rule I stop supplying them.

That makes sense. I guess it's just a matter of perspective on what we each consider "discounter" - I think of 10% as a discounter, given what Australian prices for games are like. I guess people in the US have a fair few places that go much deeper than that. Even Maelstrom's "big" sales were 17% o 18%.

Yeah, I guess to make a significant profit if you're discounting heavily you'd have to sell a large amount.

Reckon your miniatures are fairly reasonably priced anyway, especially as singles and so on. But as I've mentioned a few times, $25 for 12 unique sculpts is actually cheaper than what GW is charging for 12 practically monopose moria goblins. I like the moria goblins, but the sculpts don't justify the costs.

Agreed about the 12 for $25, Da Boss. Hopefully more folks get their stuff and decide to pledge based on what they see.

Thanks for understanding guys.

 scipio.au wrote:

czakk wrote:

$30 level, no saving
$55 level, saves $5
$90 level, saves $10
$115 level, saves $20
$165 level, saves $40

There are two new pledge levels for folks interested mostly in the special ranks (trolls, bonebacks)

90 dollars - three special options, 2 solo - savings - $25
120 dollars - three special options, 3 solos, 1 lesser rank - savings - $25

Those levels are interesting. Really, you don't really get any "benefit" from backing the KS over waiting and buying them from a 10% retailer (many who offer free shipping). In addition, you will have a wait of at least 2 months before you get your figures after paying for them. So basically the main/almost the only reason to back this KS is to be altruistic towards Tre and support his business.

Which is fine for what it is. But it's not going to move the earth or get the backing to fly particularly high. It's going to make those stretch goals a real stretch to get to as well.

This to some extent. For $110 in the previous KS, I got 7 characters, 6 ranks of 4-5 guys, 4 bonus figures and 18 bonus zombies. For a similar amount, I get less individual figures, (not to mention smaller) for this one. I'm guessing Tre ran the first at a loss maybe?

That and I havent seen anything from the first KS, so I havent been able to evaluate the material myself (the see through shields and broken weapons people posted left me somewhat concerned) meant this one was a pass for me. I do wish it well, and will pick up some bone backs at release though.

all those "bonus" figures in KS1 were unlocked at high stretch goals (many of them at $40k or higher).

 judgedoug wrote:
all those "bonus" figures in KS1 were unlocked at high stretch goals (many of them at $40k or higher).

Understood, however he said he wouldnt be able to do freebies on this one (unless I missed something). Which is why I was wondering if the first one was run at a loss (or ended up being one due to the initial casting difficulties). So I get being cautious on this one (its mostly the lack of being able to evaluate a new medium that's held me back from some kind of pledge).

I think the big nosed goblins also probably have a bit more limited appeal than the helsvakt (or however its spelled) due to their unique aesthetic. I'd use them as xvarts or something to differentiate them from all my other goblins. Plus xvart is fun to say. Xvart.

Well I won't call the KS1 an overall loss. I did make a profit from it, BUT I effectively sold through all of the zombies I will probably ever sell and when I say sold through I mean gave away for nothing once all of the costs were deducted. Additionally, I probabyl gave away at least 2 or 3 other figures for all intents and purposes as well. I never expected the campaign to go as high as it did and as a result I added too many freebies in at too low of a level. Then as the quantity added up those freebies became a stone around my neck.

My first campaign is an excellent example of what it looks liek to be totally unprepared for success and totally mismanaged to make as much of a success as possible. I panicked when the campaign began to roll backwards and started adding on more than I coudl actually afford to.

This time aroudn I am keeping my expectations realistic. Even if the final dollar amount is less I intend to make as much success from it as possible.

If you look at KickTraq, we're still on par with Helsvakt KS1. KS1 didn't break $20k until it's 15th day, and we're on what day 9 or 10 of KS2?

 tre manor wrote:

This time aroudn I am keeping my expectations realistic. Even if the final dollar amount is less I intend to make as much success from it as possible.

To be honest, I'd be happy with that. I want to have Red Box Games around to buy from, and I'd rather see the whole range get done and be able to get my hands on it over a longer period than have half a range get blown in a short time and then nothing.

But I've not gone in on any other KS so I'm not sure I'm typical.

All I really want are the goals up to 35K (bonebacks and wolf riders). I think we can make that... if we don't make the wolf riders it would be a big bummer but I'm sure I can convert something up and stick your gobbos on top

 tre manor wrote:
Well I won't call the KS1 an overall loss. I did make a profit from it, BUT I effectively sold through all of the zombies I will probably ever sell and when I say sold through I mean gave away for nothing once all of the costs were deducted. Additionally, I probabyl gave away at least 2 or 3 other figures for all intents and purposes as well. I never expected the campaign to go as high as it did and as a result I added too many freebies in at too low of a level. Then as the quantity added up those freebies became a stone around my neck.

My first campaign is an excellent example of what it looks liek to be totally unprepared for success and totally mismanaged to make as much of a success as possible. I panicked when the campaign began to roll backwards and started adding on more than I coudl actually afford to.

This time aroudn I am keeping my expectations realistic. Even if the final dollar amount is less I intend to make as much success from it as possible.

I wouldn't be so down on the zombies. They're excellent sculpts and you now have the moulds for them in TC going on from this point onwards. You may not sell a lot more of the zombies to the KS1 backers, but that's only 759 people worldwide - a lot of people but hardly the world's worth. FWIW, to this date (well over a year later) my review/size comparison of your figures to the GW LOTR range is still one of the couple most popular pages on my blog - and consistently so.

So your range has legs, and I believe that when the zombies reappear in your store they will still sell well. Zombies are a "horde" kind of figure, after all...

 scipio.au wrote:
I wouldn't be so down on the zombies. They're excellent sculpts and you now have the moulds for them in TC going on from this point onwards. You may not sell a lot more of the zombies to the KS1 backers, but that's only 759 people worldwide - a lot of people but hardly the world's worth. FWIW, to this date (well over a year later) my review/size comparison of your figures to the GW LOTR range is still one of the couple most popular pages on my blog - and consistently so.

So your range has legs, and I believe that when the zombies reappear in your store they will still sell well. Zombies are a "horde" kind of figure, after all...

Yes; I for one missed the first KS, and will definitely be wanting those beautiful zombies when they eventually show up. I'm sure I'm not alone.
(I'll be wanting some Helsvakt too.)

That's actually an idea- why not offer up some pledge levels for KS1 items during this KS? Probably not for AS good of a deal as before, but it could certainly bring in some extra backers and shouldn't require much more effort, since they're already being cast and you should have a stockpile of them soon.

What do you think, Tre?

I personally would def add on some extras from KS1; but I think Tre wants to fulfill all the KS1 orders before offering them for sale? I dunno, but I need another rank of dire wolves

It would be cool to have the ability to buy some more, now that I've seen my Aenglish with my own eyes I'm more excited to pick up some more. I can understand wanting to make sure all orders are fulfilled first though. I am sure the people waiting on stuff want to be served first.

 RiTides wrote:
That's actually an idea- why not offer up some pledge levels for KS1 items during this KS? Probably not for AS good of a deal as before, but it could certainly bring in some extra backers and shouldn't require much more effort, since they're already being cast and you should have a stockpile of them soon.

That's a terrible idea... in the sense that it would probably mean that I'd be spending way, way too much money. :-)

Glad you got your Aenglish Da Boss!

Dire wolves...... yeh I am going to add thos eto the campaign as a paid for extra today. Fits with the theme of the campaign well..... Hmmm......maybe Fenris as well. I will have to have a think on that.....

Dire wolves?!! Woho!!!

Just a thought, tre, but do you have any imagery for the wolf riders you could show off? Might get a touch more interest.

Fenris is pretty darn awesome. :p I bet there are people who would want to use it to convert a champion or something (maybe not very many). I love my Fenris and eagerly awaiting it in trollcast.

The ks1 guys would be very cool but how would that effect getting them into the store?

I guess as long as you were up front about them going on sale after ks1 is fulfilled it wouldn't be an issue.

Dire wolves are an option now!

Added $25 for 6 of them because eff it. they're awesome!

Upped pledge $25 for six too! I'd like a Fenris as well...

Upped my pledge too. 6 wolves!

Update # 4 New Campaign Addition DIRE WOLVES!!

In the interest of helping to satisfy many customers who were unable to snap up a few ranks of Dire Wolves from the previous KS campaign and also int eh hopes to help move this campaign forward a little faster I have decided that I would add the Dire Wolves to this campaign as a paid for addition. The Dire Wolves ARE NOT considered one of the lesser ranks or special ranks selections so if you do want them you will need to manage your pledge to add the amount of money necessary for the number of Dire Wolves you would like to receive. The Dire wolves are sold in this campaign in a three figure set and a six figure set. Each Wolf is fitted for universally interchangeable heads. There are three different heads and three different bodies so you have a total of 9 different final build options. Further more the Dire Wolves will be sold at a higher price when they go live in the store. the actual entry on the main page is copied here below.

Cheers!

Tre'


----------------------


DIRE WOLVES!!! Nigh the size of a man and beset the ravenous hunger of the great wolf god himself the Dire Wolves race through tangled wood and over open ground with equal ferocity slathering jaws agape to rip and rend the flesh of their prey, man and beast alike it matters not when the Howling God leads the way.. Summoned forth from the deepest primordial wilds they serve the will of Fenris only!



Add the Dire wolves to your pledge for an additional $15.00 per set of three. Or $25.00 per set of six. The Dire wolves are NOT considered a lesser or special ranks selection. These are a separate item all together. The Dire Wolves are modularly fitted for universally interchangeable heads and are supplied with 40mm round bases.

 scipio.au wrote:

So your range has legs, and I believe that when the zombies reappear in your store they will still sell well. Zombies are a "horde" kind of figure, after all...

I had to register just to reply to this (Hi, Az!). Tre, your zombies are hands-down the best zombies yet sculpted. Quality will always find an audience.

I recognize you from Kickstarter . Welcome to Dakka! And agreed, the KS1 items just need to be put up on the webstore and they will sell... or better yet, offered as a part of this campaign for those who missed out!

But even if you do that for more items, putting the KS1 items on the webstore soon after this one ends will provide a crucial stopgap of money coming in steadily instead of all in one go.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind a chance to get some stuff from KS1, considering I missed out last time. All that awesome Hellsvahkt stuff and I didn't have the ability to pick up any.

There would be a lot of complaints if items from KS1 were available for sale when a large portion of backers haven't had theirs shipped yet. Tre should put Ks1 stuff for sale, but only after the last Ks1 backer's package ships.

Why? it goes up for sale but if you get it in the new KS, it'll be months more until you get them... much much later than the KS1 backers.

Really though, I'd dearly love for the zombies and perhaps riders to go up on this KS again - didn't have the funds last time.

I believe judgedoug was replying to the comments about putting stuff up in the store not KS2. Putting into KS2 is fine, but throwing stuff up on the store before shipping KS1 wouldn't be well received. But I'm sure Tre already knows that.

Just to drop a few stats in

KS2 is doing better in terms of cash pledged so far (up ~$3K), but lags far behind in terms of backers (by ~130)

My completly unscientific take on this...

Us backers REALLY want lots of nice stuff Tre's offering

Many potential backers are waiting to see their KS1 stuff (and since Tre is posting these many folk should be able to get in before the end... sadly not all, but many hopefully)

comparing kicktraq charts gives me a headache!

..Oh right.

Good lord I need to start reading better before replying

Yes, I meant for sale in the webstore.

Orlando, I think it has to do with the first KS - Tre originally had only a few pledge levels and you could get a pledge of just 5 Helsvakt and that was it for pretty cheap. Much later in the campaign he introduced the concept of ranks/etc (that's when I jumped in at 185)

I love those dire wolf models. I really should have put more of them in my KS1 pledge rewards. I think I'll pick up some more in this KS.

The 2 heroes should unlock today

Hopefully Tre sees the reaction to the dire wolves and adds in a few more KS1 items for purchase! Broadening the appeal can Only be a good thing

I am sure that the zombies would make an equal dent. I hope that Tre, eventually, adds a few more poses for his walking dead.

Black tongue and dog killer unlocked, next up is the bone backs.

Is there an autocorrect in the title or are bonebacks also called berserkers somewhere?

Boneback Goblin Berserkers, right? that's what i've always referred to them as

Yeah, also I figured berserker would be more recognizable to folks not familiar with a boneback.

- HELP - I would like to purchase the Riders and the Wolves! They are not on the site ... does anyone really know where I can get these figures?

The wolves, you can pledge for in the kickstarter! There is no specific pledge level for them, just $15 if you want 3, or $25 if you want 6 (or any multiples of these).

As for the horse-mounted riders, they have yet to be added to the store or the new kickstarter, so there is no way to get those... yet! Hopefully, that will change VERY soon

They haven't been sculpted yet - assuming you're talking about the goblin wolf riders.

Slow day today- maybe time to add another of the popular KS1 sculpts as an add-on for those who missed out?

I'd love to see bonebacks at 20K and wolf riders at 25K, but I know that probably can't happen, so adding other existing sculpts in to help get there is the way to go imo.

Any updates on KS1 fulfilment? I know there's no chance of getting mine before this ends, but I think it's holding back a lot of other potential backers located in the US who would potentially go in on this. (If they like goblins).

The bonebacks & trolls being so far away isn't helping either. I kind of wonder if they're being held at at arbitrary funding levels - as stretch goals "rewards" rather than at however much they'd actually cost to make the moulds for?

Since there are no freebies (or even exclusives) in this KS, if Tre can actually afford to get the bonebacks and/or trolls moulded with the $15k pledged, he may as well throw them into the pot and get some more backers up...

The last update on shipping / production was from tre and the trollcast guys about four days ago. Expected date to have everything shipped is the end of february with rolling shipping going as we go along.

Brian Gregory 4 days ago

Ok just got off the phone with Ed;

Horseman Leg mold - Working currently and continuing production this week.
Fenris mold - Working currently and continuing production this week.

Musician mold - minor adjustments made end of last week - Immediate production this week.
Standard barer mold - minor adjustments made end of last week - Immediate production this week.

Horse molds - minor adjustments being mad- will be in production line this week.
Horseman torso mold - minor adjustments being mad- will be in production line this week.

Conrad Varp form mold - Currently not approved and being cut to make adjustments - will be in production as soon as the mold casts well and is approved.

To the best of my knowledge this is everything that is left to either be approved or adjusted and cast. As to the quantities of each and how long we will get the numbers from Tre.

With the exception of the varp form there will be a big package going to Tre either Thursday or Friday. Then out to you guys.

Tre, I just wanted to step in and give an assist with the update and certainly not step on your toes.

tre manor 3 days ago

Not quite Judge Doug. I won't need to approve COnradt once I send back in the fixed master. It will go straight to production. Most of the reason there has been so much back and forth approval is because of the specifics of each figure. COnradt Warp is an exception. He is much larger and bulkier. His pose is not as wild, and the fixes that I am makign will make the prodcution MUCH easier and as a result faster. The troll crew is not castign th efull order and shippign all at once they are shippign as they go along. So instead of me waiting to ship ALL orders at once after receiving all ordered casting quantities, I receive abotu a 100 or so at a tiem and get those packed and shipped while I wait for the rest to eb delivered. So I should be shipping orders now through February I am expecting that all orders will be shipped by the end fo February.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also we have a unit of painted helsvakt by cutebutpsychominis:

Thanks for posting those updates, czakk! Getting as many KS1 boxes out as possible now could definitely give this one a boost

Thanks czaak. I check the RBG forum now and then, but other than that I just look here and in my email for the updates. Looks like they'll be missing the end of this KS for most of the remaining US backers, so that will surely have a big impact on this one. (And another month at the earliest for non-US).

Damn, this Kickstarter is going a lot slower than I had anticipated. I'm pretty sure we'll get to the Bonebacks at least with the last few days push, but I'm starting to have my doubts about the rest. There is a lot of time left, though, so things might very well shape up. Honestly I'd be pretty happy if we get to the Wolf Riders ($35K), because then there would be enough options to make my $165 pledge feel worthwile. If we get there, but not further, I'd probably do:

1x Runty Gob Spearmen
2x Runty Gob Footmen
3x Runty Gob Archers
1x Dog's Bane
1x Black Tongue
1x Bonebacks
2x Wolf Riders

But also getting the Troll Brothers and Crowbiter would let me diversify even more, so I'm really hoping for those too (I'm mostly interested in getting one of each mini, not really building up an army).

Come on people, pledge for this now! The $55 pledge level is actually a pretty nice deal right now (24 goblins, plus 2 heroes or 6 archers).

 Trodax wrote:
Honestly I'd be pretty happy if we get to the Wolf Riders ($35K)

Agreed 100%! Hopefully he adds in some purchaseable add-ons (current sculpts/casts, not new ones) to help us get there

I personally know three people that are not pledging due to not having received KS1 stuff yet. That I believe is the unfortunately reality :(

Truth be told I am terrified of mucking it all up if I tinker with it.

As for the expense of the bonebacks...... It will require 12 molds for this pack. THAT is the hard part. 12 moulds to insure reliable and efficient casting of each part. So that is a bit of a gamble. Though I also understand that I have already rolled the dice on the way I set up the pledge levels. If those Bonebacks do not fund then I could potentially roll back a LOT of the dollar amount pledged thus far.

I talked to Ed yesterday and there seems to be a development in the material he is using for casting that may improve the expected costs. I MIGHT be able to mitigate the cost of the bonebacks by making family moulds but that is part of the reason why the KS1 has hit so many snags........

Ugh....

Tre, any updates on KS1 so I can pass it along to the peeps I know who are waiting on their KS1 stuff?

Would it be worth an interim level at $20K where you unlock
6 Bonebacks,

meaning that folk would temporarily get duplicate figures (2x 6 unlocked) if they took the special rank but it would mean the special rank option was available earlier and mean those of us who've pledged for something including special ranks got less jumpy

then at $25K you unlock the remaining bonebacks and the special rank returns to being 12 unique figures

(you'd need a better way of wording it though as my rambling sounds terrible!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems Tre has just had the same idea as he's posted on the KS comments

Creator tre manor 2 minutes ago

Yeh it is all a big balancing act really. On the one hand I REALLY want to hit it big on this KS ( obviously ) but at the same time I want to be certain that every promise is fulfillable without going into dangerous territory. As long as this campaign funds the Bonebacks and the WolfRiders I will be happy. That is a goal that I think I could satisfy faster than expected.

I am talkign with Ed to see what we can do to maybe bring the bonebacks a little more within reach as I think that crossing that mark will go a long way to moving this campaign forward. As of now though the plan is to make 12 moulds for each one of the figures in the set. That is a significant outlay for parts that will be sold in multipacks. With individual moulds then we can avoid a lot of the troubles that have arisen with some of the KS 1 parts. We will see what we can do.

One solution that might work withough havign to do that is to split the bonebacks into 2 groups of 6. Release the first group at $20,000.00 and just double them up to fill out the units if the campaign does nto go over $25,000.00. If the campaign DOES go over $25,000.00 then we add the second group of six to finish out the set giving each set 12 uniques INSTEAD of 6 doubles.

What do you guys think?


So if you're a backer and like the idea, drop into the KS comments and let him know, and if you're thinking of backing and think this will help, let him know here

I'd prefer adding in more KS1 sculpts, but something is much better than nothing! Ed's initial molding costs sound too high. I thought 12 different models could be in one spin mold. Imo I'd risk that and lower the stretch goals...

I Really like the idea of breaking up the wolf rider stretch, though- say, a new sculpt every 2.5K after the bonebacks, instead of all 4 at 10K away!

To be honest, as someone who is getting pretty much one of everything from KS1: Waiting to allow Tre and Ed to produce the best product possible > crappy product delivered faster.

As far as funding goes, the thing to remember is it's more or less in line with how KS1 ran.

Breaking up the stretches in 6 Bonebacks or individual riders sounds like a decent idea unless it screws things up if only half the bonebacks or two of the riders gets funded, ie less than a full set.

Although then it opens up the idea of using Solo options on a set of, let's say, 2 Bonebacks or 1 lesser rank for 2 wolf riders. It increases bookkeeping some, but it could be worth it for the goose to the funding.

Yeah, although I bet that will be too much for him to keep track of...

It's a bummer that things are stalled right now (any other ideas to jumpstart it?) but they always pick up at the end and I believe we'll still easily get the bonebacks. I would love to have the wolf riders too, but don't Have to have them. The only problem is that if we don't get them I'll probably have to reduce my pledge a little bit, as I'm already getting 120 gobbos here and don't need more than that... (hobgoblins for chaos dwarfs).

 RiTides wrote:
It's a bummer that things are stalled right now (any other ideas to jumpstart it?) but they always pick up at the end and I believe we'll still easily get the bonebacks. I would love to have the wolf riders too, but don't Have to have them. The only problem is that if we don't get them I'll probably have to reduce my pledge a little bit, as I'm already getting 120 gobbos here and don't need more than that... (hobgoblins for chaos dwarfs).

If we get to the Bonebacks but not any further I'll probably reduce my pledge from the $165 level to the $115 or $90 level so I won't be forced to get so many Boneback duplicates. But I'll compensate so my total pledge stays the same by adding on some lesser rank runty gobs, archers and perhaps 6 more wolves.

It would certainly be nice to also get wolf riders and troll brothers, but I'd actually be fine with this development as well. A bag of very nice gobbos will be coming my way either way.

 tre manor wrote:
Truth be told I am terrified of mucking it all up if I tinker with it.

As for the expense of the bonebacks...... It will require 12 molds for this pack. THAT is the hard part. 12 moulds to insure reliable and efficient casting of each part. So that is a bit of a gamble. Though I also understand that I have already rolled the dice on the way I set up the pledge levels. If those Bonebacks do not fund then I could potentially roll back a LOT of the dollar amount pledged thus far.

I talked to Ed yesterday and there seems to be a development in the material he is using for casting that may improve the expected costs. I MIGHT be able to mitigate the cost of the bonebacks by making family moulds but that is part of the reason why the KS1 has hit so many snags........

Ugh....

You need to get a contingency plan going so you're not 100% reliant on Ed/Trollforged. It's already effectively cost you a lot of success on this KS, as well as forcing you to start this KS before your customers are really ready for it (ie, fulfilment)

Another painted helsvakt has been posted up.

I can't wait for mine to arrive!

Damn... Those Helsvakt really are, what is you Americans say, the bee's knees? I really want to get some of those eventually and use them for some Conan RPG'ing.

As for the current goblin Kickstarter, we have at least gained a few new backers during the weekend. Still hoping that things pick up!

Most Americans don't say the "bee's knees" but that is hilarious

 RiTides wrote:
Most Americans don't say the "bee's knees" but that is hilarious

Ah, I see, perhaps my English is a tad outdated. I'll try to become more 'down with the kids' and start spicing it up with 'nifty' and 'groovy' then.

Almost at $16K now, at least we have a trickle of movement!

 Trodax wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Most Americans don't say the "bee's knees" but that is hilarious

Ah, I see, perhaps my English is a tad outdated. I'll try to become more 'down with the kids' and start spicing it up with 'nifty' and 'groovy' then.

Almost at $16K now, at least we have a trickle of movement!

Hey now, I still say "bee's knees," though certainly not "whoopsie daisies." But now I've gone and referenced a rom com....whoopsie daisies!

I certainly hope that we can reach the Bonebacks. I think it is doable. If I had time, I would be busily painting up my RBG goblins to sow off, but this month has been a little slice of work Hell already. It aint half over yet, and there's still Mardi Gras tomorrow and Valentine's Day left to go.

I can say that those Bonebacks are awesome sauce. I also upped my pledge just now to pick up some more Dire Wolves and we hit $16,000.00!

With almost half of the project let to go we will get to the Bonebacks at least, but my eye is on those goblin wolf riders!

In the comments Tre said he's going to split the Bonebacks- unlock 6 at 20K and the other 6 at 25K. Should be in an update today I think.

Saw that, but I'm waiting for something slightly more official before I update the thread title.

That's a smart move - it'll give the campaign more achievable goals to meet. 2x $5k is psychologically much easier to hit than 1x $10k.

Just sent out the update. Tis official!

Awesome, thanks Tre! Update the thread title when you get the chance, czakk

I decided to do a little price comparison with Tre's biggest competitor in the scale (GW Lotr figures). In my example I have tried to compare like with like as much as possible, and I've used what I consider to be equivalent models. You could disagree, for example, that Bonebacks and Hunter Orcs are equivalent, and that would tip this further in Tre's favour as you'd likely have to use the expensive finecast blister packs to make up your units of "elites". But my idea was based around building a sizeable warband for LOTR skirmish or a smallish force for WOTR using the different models.
I used Tre's highest pledge level as the starting point and then added additions to beef up my selections.
Warband One: Cavalry and Infantry
GW Prices (Dollars)
Total Cost 299

24 of each kind of Goblin, bow, spear and hand weapon, 4 figure variants for each. (72 Moria Goblins total)
24 "elites" (hunter orcs), 12 figure variants.
2 Heroes, (I picked the two cheapest options here)
6 Wolves
6 Warg Riders
vs.
RBG Prices (Dollars)
Total Cost 240

24 of each kind of goblin,bow, spear and hand weapon, 3 figure variants for Archers, 12 for the rest. (72 RBG Goblins total)
24 "elites" (Bonebacks), 12 figure variants,
2 heroes,
6 wolves,
4 Wolf Riders
(Note: Tre's sets mean you have 2 less wolf riders in this method. Increase the price by 35 if you want two extra- GW's Wolf Riders are cheaper but perhaps lack visual consistency with the Moria Goblin range.)

Warband Two: Monster Focused

383 (As above, but with the Warg Riders swapped out for 4 Cave Trolls)
vs.
275 (As above but with the Wolf Riders replaced with Troll Brothers + 1 extra set of Troll Brothers)

Here you can see that if you'd like some trolls in your warband, Tre offers a hefty potential discount over GW, assuming we get as far as the trolls.

Food for thought! I think any comparison of Tre's Goblins to the Moria Goblins set (which was really nice when released, but is showing it's age perhaps) is going to come out in Tre's favour. His miniatures are more detailed and possess much greater character and a much greater variety of poses. Similarly, Bonebacks are much more dynamic than the GW hunter orcs. Where Tre really wins though is on his reasonable prices for heroes compared to GW.

Also worth considering is that if the pricing structure stays the same, the price to get an equivalent number of RBG Goblins is going to go up after the kickstarter- these numbers are utilising the fairly nice discount available through the Kickstarter.

Nice post, Da Boss! I know I want Tre's goblins and as you say they are discounted from what they will cost later.

Also, I believe you can stack pledges, so you don't need to pay full add-on price for additions, but can get another discounted pledge. I think that would make the numbers even more in favor of RBG.

Nice breakdown Da Boss; thanks for doing that!

Trouble at t' mill

Update #7 Reorganize and Relaunch??

Hey Everybody,

Ok after much very careful consideration I am wondering if the best course of action would be to re-organize and relaunch the campaign. I think that I prioritized the campaign poorly and this has resulted in the extended stall that we have seen here. I am VERY grateful for the support that this campaign has received thus far and I do consider this a success, but I cannot help but feel that many of you are pledging for goals that we have not yet reached. My fear is that we may not reach these goals and that you will be disappointed in the end.

My idea is to relaunch with a mix of the Dvergr and Goblins as the overall goal of the campaign. The first goal would be a small group of Dwarven adventurers ( 5 ) and the new goblin footmen. The second goal would be half of the bonebacks ( 6 ), the third goal would be the other half of the bonebacks and then the fourth would be an expansion of the Dvergr, then followed by the wolf riders and so on. It is my belief that this mix of themes and focus on the more popular goals would move the campaign MUCH faster through the goals and thus make your contributions more satisfactorily diverse and secure........Also this would allow enough time in the campaign for more KS1 orders to reach their destinations and bring more contributors into this campaign.
I hesitate to even publish this as I do not want to create any impression of instability but I also want to make sure that no one is let down by the final results of the campaign either.

Please post your thoughts to this update.

Cheers Y'all,

Tre'

So that's the question Tre's asking

I don't actually know if you can stop a funded KS (It's clear you can kill unfunded ones), but assuming he can what do folk here think of the idea

I know I don't want Dverger so the potential new structure would be less interesting to me, BUT I do need at least one special rank to fund or I'll need to drop/cancel my pledge

I'd need to run a calculator over things to decide,

smaller pledges have less value and I have to anticipate a about an additional 20% +£10 ($15) in tax so it might just to expenive to continue


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Tre's make another post explaining why he needs individual moulds for each figure (instead of say a single mould with 12 bonebacks in)

Well family moulds for this is a no go. Look at it this way the mould itself is one cost that is quickly absorbed but the per spin cost ( labour ) is a consistent cost that never gets absorbed. So if I have a moudl that has 12 figures cast per spin then I might pay for the mould quickly but I will have to pay FAR more after having to spin that mould once per set of figures when I need 500 sets. If I pay for 12 moulds that each produce 16 copies per figure per spin then I save a LOT of money on the per spin cost and absorb the cost of the mould itself rather quickly ( provided the goals are met ).

I MIGHT be able to make a partial family mould system work but then I am beholden to other problems, i.e. Labour costs of sorting, QCing and packaging. AND then there is also the spectre of mis-registration. Sometimes in family moulds you might have one or two cavities that don't fill properly or maybe have a consistent flaw. When this happens you are always going to have uneven numbers of figures in the set. And with Ed's material you cannot just toss the extras back into the pot to be recycled.

Individual moulds in this process will only speed everything up TREMENDOUSLY. Brian will no longer cry himself to sleep dreaming of demoulding and sorting THOUSANDS of goblins. If I made him go through what he has for the undead with the goblins he will curse my name with his last breath.

It certainly is a long stretch, but we can make it.

Well

And, as is predictable, with this update pledges are dropping like crazy. Unfortunate :(

Not like crazy, only $200. And up 1 backer since I last checked!

2 wolf rider WIPs tomorrow he said in the comments

Oh, I hadn't checked this project much. The last time I checked, it was up around 16300, so I thought more had dropped after the update. Today has been a net loss of $336 though. Rough trade.

We have lost more than $5000.00 total over th elife of the project.

Backers has held steady at about 150, and we're still right at 16K. Those wolf riders WIPs should tempt more in

 tre manor wrote:
We have lost more than $5000.00 total over th elife of the project.

:(

I am one of those that dropped my pledge down. If the wolf riders don't fund I will have to drop it again. It seem that your pledge levels are working against the kickstarter. I wouldn't lose faith though you have made a decent dent in your goblins.

People need to understand that you can cancel your pledge all the way up the end of the project. I don't really get why some people drop during a project. I haven't pledged myself as I have no need / just don't like Goblins but I've been reading the updates and watching it closely.

Sure there are a few real life issues that force a cancellation, but if you're only uncertain about the end goal then you should just keep it in till near the end.

I think that for a KS focused purely on goblins it's doing ok. This was always going to be a niche project. I think for the next one having two races and alternating would be good as long as the rewards levels contain value right from the get go.

I don't think pledge levels should rely on making stretch goals - the very first person backing has to feel they are getting value with their pledge. Anything else adds uncertainty, and you can always add in more if the project takes off, but it's hard to take anything away (which is what not making a stretch goal is going to feel like).

Still the bottom line is this has made its stated goal, some Goblins will now be made, so it should be considered a success

 Surloch wrote:
People need to understand that you can cancel your pledge all the way up the end of the project. I don't really get why some people drop during a project. I haven't pledged myself as I have no need / just don't like Goblins but I've been reading the updates and watching it closely.

Sure there are a few real life issues that force a cancellation, but if you're only uncertain about the end goal then you should just keep it in till near the end.

I think that for a KS focused purely on goblins it's doing ok. This was always going to be a niche project. I think for the next one having two races and alternating would be good as long as the rewards levels contain value right from the get go.

I don't think pledge levels should rely on making stretch goals - the very first person backing has to feel they are getting value with their pledge. Anything else adds uncertainty, and you can always add in more if the project takes off, but it's hard to take anything away (which is what not making a stretch goal is going to feel like).

Still the bottom line is this has made its stated goal, some Goblins will now be made, so it should be considered a success

People can and should do whatever they feel best with their pledges over the course of a campaign. No-one seems to complain when people bump their pledges to get more add-ons, yet they bitch when people lower their pledges during the course of a campaign. That's just part and parcel of using a platform like Kickstarter. I've not pledged on this myself either, for the reasons I've elaborated on a half-dozen times already. I'm not sure how clever it would be to reorganise the KS with only 9 days to go. Methinks Tre would be better letting it go the distance and simply fund the smaller goblins, or swap the bonebacks in as an earlier level, or something like that.

If he starts to mix in Dwarves or Elves or whatever while removing some of the already-funded goblins, he's just going to run the risk of alienating many of the people that have gone in on this one, and other people who might be interested in dwarves but still don't have their KS1 stuff aren't going to suddenly jump in with both feet and hundreds of dollars...





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Just re-read RiTides post.. so he wants to cancel this campaign and relaunch it? That's insanity, especially after hearing so many times about how Tre' "had" to launch a new Kickstarter as soon as possible, regardless of KS1 fulfilment because of "Ed's schedule". (We also heard about how this one would be 40 or 45 days long to enable everyone to get their KS1 items - this was before the later difficulties in fulfilment). Well, the goal here was $5k. He's got $15k in pledges. Call it a success. Get people all their gak from both Kickstarters, then launch a third one for Bonebacks and dwarves or whatever.





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/Facepalm.

Tre said this in the comments:

Creator tre manor 1 day ago
Well if the Wolf Riders do nto fund then they probably wont get made for quite a while if at all. Part of the point here is to be able to pay myself for the time it takes to actually sculp tthe figures. If a figure's concept cannot sell it then I have to concentrate my efforts on those concepts that do sell the sculpt. This is the new reality of Kickstarter. Before I coudl just sculpt whatever I wanted and produce it and know that there was a pretty good chance of a successful sell through. Now most people have their funds tied up in kickstarter campaigns and are not looking through the established market for their needs. So, a concept that does not fund through kickstarter, just does not get made, or at the very least prioritized. It really sucks.

So he's judging the success failure of the Wolf Riders, which aren't even fething available here yet - or for another three stretch goals based on the performance so far.


Tre', I know you'll read this, and I'm going to be plain.
You haven't finished fulfilling the KS1 orders = lost pledgers on this KS.
The Wolf Riders aren't available. The Bonebacks aren't even available and won't be for another $10k worth of pledges.
The Wolf Riders actually become an option after $19k more is raised. In a campaign that has $16k pledged.

How can you reasonably expect people to pledge now for the Wolf Riders?
How can you even reasonably attempt to judge the popularity of Wolf RIders based on the above?
I mean, using the above criteria, you may as well can the bonebacks forever, since they're the models for the next stretch goal that have "failed" to bring the campaign onward (hint - the people who want the Bonebacks have already pledged for them in anticipation. You need more backers.


On a related note - with no freebies, limited discounts, no exclusive models, don't expect a campaign to do gangbusters numbers. You have a following of dedicated RBG fans who undoubtedly make up a core of this KS. You have a 300% funded level. It's already success. It's just that tiny goblins don't hold as much of a broad appeal as Spiky Not-Chaos Warriors and Zombies, and since people are still waiting on those, it narrows the market again somewhat. Now you know for next time. Full fulfilment, and Bonebacks up front!

The non-fulfillment of the first KS is probably hurting this one more than anything. I know five other people who are still waiting on KS1 items before they pledge for KS2. I am the only person I know who has pledged into KS2 without receiving KS1 stuff.

Regardless, I am getting a TON of goblins from this one!

NO ONE is more disappointed by the delay in fulfillment of the the first KS campaign. BELIEVE me when I say that. If it is any consolation due to that delay I will probably spend an additional $3,000.00 to $4,000.00 that was not budgeted to ship all of the packages IF I am lucky.

I have worked for 5 years to build the business that I have, and I feel as if I have thrown it over a cliff. I am not trying to take advantage of anyone, I trying like hell to survive in this new business enviornment where there are new companies emerging every few days with product that they can sell to the tune of multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars without ever ONCE delivering on their promises or even showing you the actual product you are paying for!

Meanwhile existing products just sit on the shelf AND the entirety of product in the market is consistently devalued as the kickstarter " freebie " factor eats away at the perceived value of all product. I won't even begin to go into how much money I lost on the first KS. I am going over the numbers now and it is STAGGERING how much " value " there was in those pledges for the backers.

This stuff costs money to produce, and that cost is not always mitigated by volume. In fact it is ONLY mitigated by volume when you use injection moulded plastic which necessitates a loss of detail ( DESPITE what you are being told by most manufacturers in the advertising. ) and a greater cost in tooling.

It very well may be that if I do not retool my entire line then I might as well pack it in because the prices being demanded now are such that I cannot maintain a business in metal production. THAT is the reality here.

The timing of this campaign was less than optimal but it was necessary. I have discontinued all of my metal production for the sake of retooling in plastic to afford to be able to offer product at competitive prices in a changing market. Further I am restricted from campaigning to raise funding for that transition until I am able to deliver ont eh promises from each campaign. Then I am retricted by the capacity of my production partner. SO the BEST way forward is to fund as much product as possible all at once to be able to afford to operate between this time and the next campaign.

I did not create this game and I am not even really trying to win it, I am just trying to keep my spot on the team.

Tre don't act like KS2 is not a success, you've got $15k so far, over 3x what was required. After all KS1 and KS2 are fulfilled then do the next KS to fund the Dvergr and whatever else.

I wonder what the long term effects of kickstarter mania will be on the industry. It seems to be hitting satura
tion point. I have only pledged for the RBG kickstarter as I know the quality of the product. I hope this all works out for you and I'd say being conservative is the right approach for the next few months.

I actually really like the idea of conservative projects. Shooting for the moon means that delays are inevitable, which can affect reputations, timetables, and cause jaded backers to walk away.

Personally, I think you would do best retooling small chunks of models very quickly. It would make for a smoother process, I think. Doing them in big spurts is just a ton of logistics to juggle all at once. I vote finishing out this project, do it fast and well, and watch the next one attract more customers.

Good point, recruttons.

I wouldnt treat not reaching the wolf riders or bonebacks as a lack of interest. Lots of people pledged for levels which include special ranks (of which there arent any) specifically to get those minis. From what I saw in comments, people wanted those more than the smaller goblins. Since they arent going to be shared molds, you could run a KS with one wolf rider at 3k, 2 at 6k, all 4 at 10k etc and they will fund rather quickly. Same with the banebacks. Just do the math, figure out how much you need to make it worth your time, and go from there. If you get X pre-orders for a product, it gets made.

I wonder how many people didnt pledge on this one not because they didnt get everything from the first KS, but because they dont have anything in Trollcast, and want to see the medium before pledging more. That was why I held off. After I get something in trollcast, and judge it for myself, I'm much less concerned about having multiple outstanding kickstarters from the same vendor.

Well I don't think there is a lack of interest in the Wolf Riders or Bonebacks it is more the opportunity for creating successful product that I was referring to. As per the idea of launchign a new KS with the bonebacks and riders..... well that is exactly what i woudl do BUT I will have to deliver on this stuff first which means a delay between now and the time of the next KS, and then there is also the delay between that KS and final fulfillment. Ugh..... What happened to the good old days of makign something and putting it up in a store??

 tre manor wrote:

Well I don't think there is a lack of interest in the Wolf Riders or Bonebacks it is more the opportunity for creating successful product that I was referring to. As per the idea of launchign a new KS with the bonebacks and riders..... well that is exactly what i woudl do BUT I will have to deliver on this stuff first which means a delay between now and the time of the next KS, and then there is also the delay between that KS and final fulfillment.

Good to hear! I'll be in on that one for sure

Ugh..... What happened to the good old days of makign something and putting it up in a store??

Well, you still can. But this way at least you know the mold/sculpt cost will be covered going in (at least, once you get all your variables sorted out). You have a loyal fan base, so you might be able to do the equivalent of a kickstarter on your own website (and bypass Amazon/KS fees) to avoid laying out everything up front out of your pocket and hope sales come in fast enough afterwards.

Agreed, Tre. Kickstarter mania has destabilised the market.

Wolf Rider WIPS

Hey Y'all,

Ok in the interest of moving thigns along mor epositively I have here the WIP shots of to of the Wolf Rider mounts. i have not yet begun on the legs of the riders but the way these will be made is that the riders legs and the wolves will be one part and then the rider's upper bodies ( with weapon and shield ) will be a second part. In the interest of bringing these a little closer into reach I am going to make one set of 3 modular figures instead of 4 modular figures. I will also increase the number of figures in the Wolf Rider Ranks to 6 instead of four. This way you will get 2 repeats of 3 unique riders kits. Each part will be universally interchangeable so this should offer quite a bit of potential for customization. IF the riders fund then I will also try to work up a goal for a second set of rider's torsos that will offer archer options for the wolf rider ranks.

Cheers Y'all!

Tre'

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Some folks are having trouble seeing the image, so I'll upload it here:

I ave decided that even if they don't fund I'll just get his regular dire wolves and convert them with footmen on top

 recruittons wrote:
I actually really like the idea of conservative projects. Shooting for the moon means that delays are inevitable, which can affect reputations, timetables, and cause jaded backers to walk away.

Personally, I think you would do best retooling small chunks of models very quickly. It would make for a smoother process, I think. Doing them in big spurts is just a ton of logistics to juggle all at once. I vote finishing out this project, do it fast and well, and watch the next one attract more customers.

THIS.


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 tre manor wrote:

Well I don't think there is a lack of interest in the Wolf Riders or Bonebacks it is more the opportunity for creating successful product that I was referring to. As per the idea of launchign a new KS with the bonebacks and riders..... well that is exactly what i woudl do BUT I will have to deliver on this stuff first which means a delay between now and the time of the next KS, and then there is also the delay between that KS and final fulfillment. Ugh..... What happened to the good old days of makign something and putting it up in a store??

You're welcome to just do that, you know. You don't have to Kickstart everything.

Get the Helsvakt into the store and start making some income. If Trollforged is the problem, get yourself a second supplier. Look at Anvil Industries in the UK.




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 Da Boss wrote:
Agreed, Tre. Kickstarter mania has destabilised the market.

I dunno about that. People still buy things via internet retailers and FLGS. A lot of Kickstarters don't offer particularly good value over RRP either. Perhaps it impacts Tre more than others because he no longer has production going out to retailers because of the discontinuation of his metal line and he sells his remaining stuff directly on his website. Speaking for myself, the shine has certainly left the idea of Kickstarters, and I'm not really looking at backing much any more.

If you want to worry about devalued perceptions, just look at Reaper. Not even their Bones KS. The Bones line (started before KS, but obviously going to be huge at retail shortly) is what endangers current perceived value more than any number of small startups like Stonehaven miniatures selling a few Dwarves or Gnomes.

Here are the wolf rider WIPs since they got caught on the page rollover:

czakk wrote:
Wolf Rider WIPS

I'm still just as excited about this although really I just want the bonebacks, and I think we can get them just fine. It'd be nice if they all unlocked at 20K, though, instead of just 6 of them!

 Azazelx wrote:

 tre manor wrote:
Ugh..... What happened to the good old days of makign something and putting it up in a store??

You're welcome to just do that, you know. You don't have to Kickstart everything.

Get the Helsvakt into the store and start making some income.

Exactly; get those gorgeous guys out there so I can buy them already!

If you feel bad about Kickstarter, think of it this way. If not for Kickstarter, I'd have never heard of Tre Manor or Red Box Games (granted, I'm kind of new to the mini hobby outside of GW, so I may just be an ignorant fool). But now, after hearing about how awesome your first KS was, I'm keeping my eyes on Red Box developments, and I'm talking about your awesome minis with my buddies. So even if you in the end lost money over KS1, you may have gained reputation and potential customers.

 Azazelx wrote:

 tre manor wrote:

What happened to the good old days of makign something and putting it up in a store??

You're welcome to just do that, you know. You don't have to Kickstart everything.

Get the Helsvakt into the store and start making some income. If Trollforged is the problem, get yourself a second supplier. Look at Anvil Industries in the UK.

I agree with Azazel, I just don't understand why Tre thinks that KS is the only way now to release new models. For the regiments that don't quite fit into his future Kickstarter plans (The Helsmaidens are a good example.) i think that Tre should just consider selling pre-orders for them from the RBG website and include an exclusive item in the deal as a way to help entice more early buyers. (This method of pre-order has worked pretty well for Taban, Raging heroes and Avatar of War in the past.) It would also help Tre get some actual money out of those sculpts now, instead of just sitting on the models for 6-12 months in the hopes that the next Kickstarter is successful enough to pay for them.

The exclusive item wouldn't need to be anything too major either, it could be a brand new sculpt or a modified existing model. A single sprue containing a few unique weapons/heads/gear, or even just a small familiar that could be a mascot for the regiment.



(Just another shout out for the Helsmaidens, i'd love to be able to get a full unit without having to wait until the next Helsvakt KS is launched...)

Those are great points, and I hope Tre heeds them once this is over as I'd love to see things back up in his store for sale.

Particularly, if anything here doesn't fund (like the wolf riders) but is Already Sculpted, putting it up for preorder in his store would be great for everybody . But even moreso things that are already cast and in his hands going up for sale.

I just upped my pledge by $5 and we've got 3 new backers today . Hopefully we will start the final upward climb! I am really happy with my pledge now that I've decided just to pledge for dire wolves and bonebacks with my extra funds. If the wolf riders don't unlock, bare dire wolves will suit me just fine

So I painted my first Boneback today. I have the full set in metal, and they were so cool looking that I was afraid to touch brush to them. Well, I can honestly say this was one of the easiest and most fun to paint models I own. Seriously.




It's not a stellar paint job, but it only took me 90 minutes and I'm actually really happy with it. Thank you, Tre, for making such amazing gob-orcs!

I highly recommend anyone who doesn't have these to pledge for at least 1 special rank and get 12. They are awesome!

Hmmm. The number of backers has increased slightly, but we've lost over 1000 in pledge money. Wonder what's happening there?

 Da Boss wrote:
Hmmm. The number of backers has increased slightly, but we've lost over 1000 in pledge money. Wonder what's happening there?

The pledges have a expectation on what they wanted from this KS. That expectation does not match reality of how the KS is doing so they are reducing their pledges. It happened to me and may happen again because right now my pledge is not valid unless more stretch goals open up.

Aye, but wouldn't it make sense to wait until nearer the end to do that? If everyone loses confidence, then we won't get to the stretch goals. Whereas if we all stuck with it, we might get some momentum going.

 Da Boss wrote:
Aye, but wouldn't it make sense to wait until nearer the end to do that? If everyone loses confidence, then we won't get to the stretch goals. Whereas if we all stuck with it, we might get some momentum going.

I am going to leave mine for now but some of the stretch goals like the last one have a very little chance of funding 3 different special ranks so unless you want 3 duplicate sets. I see no point in being in there. Right now no special ranks are even available so I can see why people are dropping down.

 Da Boss wrote:
Aye, but wouldn't it make sense to wait until nearer the end to do that? If everyone loses confidence, then we won't get to the stretch goals. Whereas if we all stuck with it, we might get some momentum going.

Depends on how/where they access the net,

If you access it at work, but will be on holiday or out on the road it may well make sense to reduce now and increase again if things improve if you DO manage to get net access

I think this is the first KS I have seen where some pledge levels are not valid and will only become valid depending on future stretch goals. I think this is part of the reason why it is not succeeding to my expectation.

That's a fair point.

I'm still in on my initial pledge that includes special ranks, just to try and keep things from deflating further, but there's no reason to pledge more than the $55 pledge level and add funds for one more solo rank. Assuming the deflation doesn't drop it below 15k.

Right now there are only 2 lesser ranks and 3 solo, dropping it below 15k would be 2 lesser ranks and a single solo option.

Methinks it should have been structured this way:

initial goal 10k
funds 1 normal rank (12 spearmen), 1 solo (3 archers), 1 special (6 bonebacks)

alternative stretch goals every 5k unlocking another rank/solo/special:
15k - 6 more bonebacks
20k - characters
25k - rank footmen
30k - 2 wolf riders
35k - more characters

etc

So that way all pledge levels would have had something initially.

Bonebacks will be in sooner.

Hey Ya'll Ok I figured out a way to get the bonebacks in sooner rather than later and almost definitely by the end of the campaign. Now instead of waiting to fund two sets of 6 I will break them up into 3 sets fo four. That brings the funding much closer into reach. So now when we hit $18,000.00 4 bonebacks will unlock. These will still count as 1 special rank selection so if the other 8 do not fund then you will receive 3 sets of these four unlocked uniques as a full rank ( 12 figures total. ). Then as the two other sets of four unlock they will replace one set of duplicates in the final 12. This way the special ranks selections are CERTAIN to have value and we are CERTAIN to get the bonebacks in. I think once the one set is unlocked and in we will see the second two sets rather quickly as people get back in on the campaign...... Oddly enough if no one had reduced or canceled their pledges we would already be over $25,000.00. :/

So we can do this, I blame myself for not adding in more variety from the beginning and for mis-prioritizing the initial goals. The Bonebacks should have been first and then followed by the footmen, then spearmen and then archers and solos. Sorry guys the NEXT campaign will be a ringer!

Seems like a great idea to me. Puts people's minds at ease to have some of them unlocked sooner but I still think we'll get all the bonebacks.

I need to confirm that my pledge works with Tre, but I'm going to post it here (feel free to comment if you see it, Tre!).

Long Howler's Tribal War Host ($165 + $5 shipping)
Runty Gobs War Party ($115 + $3 shipping)

That gives me a total of 5 lesser ranks, 5 special ranks, and 8 solos. To that I will add:

1 Solo ($5)
3 Dire Wolves ($15)

Total: $300 + $8 shipping

I am going to divide it up as follows:

21 Archers
24 Spearmen
36 Footmen
60 Bonebacks
Dog's Bane
Black Tongue

Also going to ask Tre if he can make a note to swap 4 spearmen for 4 more footmen (since they're in the same category) so that I can basically have 20 archers, 20 spearmen, 40 footmen, and 60 bonebacks

Hmmm.....Swapping the footmen in liek that might not be do-able. Too much of that and I will go absolutely INSANE!!

As to the rest it looks right to me.

A couple hand-snip-glue-swaps would work, RiTides.

Yeah, I'm sure I will figure something out!

This last reshuffling is a good move I think; we're now only $2500 away from unlocking (at least some of) the bonebacks. Having those in the bag will mean a lot I think, since people won't have to worry as much about what to fill their special ranks with.

There are 6 days left, still time for this to turn around! We just need a couple more fellows that, like RiTides, realise what an enormous army you can affordably get here. (I think that horde is going to look awesome.)
Or, barring that, a slightly few more fellows that realise that you can get one of each of 29 beautiful, currently funded goblins for the very reasonable price of $60. Throw in some dire wolves, and you have a pretty nice deal, with the additional chance that bonebacks, wolf riders and trolls will also become available. Do it!

Had I been playing any fantasy wargame I'd definately would have built up an army around Tre's goblins! Compared with GW, for example, you'd get an army for half the price! Granted, Tre's figures are smaller, but if you get an entire army, it would still look right.

Tre, I sent you a PM on here, just FYI I can send it through Kickstarter if that's easier for you.

Got it RiTides....sorry I always miss my PM's here.

Service with a smile, I'm always a sucker for project creators who respond quickly and post here . Can't wait for the last few days push!!

For a miniature kickstarter without gaming rules, I'd say it's quite a success for Tre.
If the kickstarter should reorganize using backer's opinion, I recommend opening a poll thread somewhere in the forum to vote would be one of the choice

Down to 5.5 days left I think, within a 2-3 days I expect the final rise to start, with a 5K bump the last day. Bonebacks will be in easily despite current backer indecision . See the Endless Fantasy Tactics kicktraq graph for a similar dip in the middle, then last 2 days surge.

I wish i had as much faith in the campaign as you Rtides. Don't get me wrong, im praying that over the last few days this campaign will somehow defy all odds and skyrocket into the $100,000+ region. But so far i've seen a quite a few people state that they're planning to lower their pledge if there isn't a decent final push, and when you consider that a total of 69 people are currently pledging for rewards that contain 'Special Ranks' you just have to wonder how many of those people might also be planning to lower if there isn't a sign of that boost.

I was actually planning on lowering my 'Warhost' pledge today, but since the campaign is only at $15,005 i just didn't want to be the one to push the campaign back under the 'Runty Goblin' stretch goal...

Aye, at present I have pledged for the top level +110 not counting shipping. But as it stands, I'm likely to be looking at having 9 of the same Bonebacks for quite a chunk of that pledge if I don't reduce my special rank commitment, and perhaps even nothing stated for it.

I'm a supporter and a fan, but we need something now as a special rank option, something to give confidence and get things moving. I'd say we've needed it for about 5 days now. I obviously know nothing about the logisitcs of it, but it would seem to me that offering some stuff that has already been dispatched from KS1 (Like the very popular zombies, or Helsvakt) as a special rank would go a long way towards getting some positive momentum going.

I'm sure Tre has thought of all that at this stage and probably has his reasons for not going down that route, but I'd be really curious as to what they are. We seem stuck between a rock and a hard place right now.

Maybe Tre could offer some swaps for the special ranks? 1 regular rank +x solos? That way you could pledge without worry if the special ranks fund or not, you at least get something for that portion of your backer reward.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Maybe Tre could offer some swaps for the special ranks? 1 regular rank +x solos? That way you could pledge without worry if the special ranks fund or not, you at least get something for that portion of your backer reward.

a 35 special rank is the same price as a 25 lesser rank + two 5 solo's. so if no specials get funded i would assume Tre would allow that.

 Da Boss wrote:
Aye, at present I have pledged for the top level +110 not counting shipping. But as it stands, I'm likely to be looking at having 9 of the same Bonebacks for quite a chunk of that pledge if I don't reduce my special rank commitment, and perhaps even nothing stated for it.

I'm a supporter and a fan, but we need something now as a special rank option, something to give confidence and get things moving. I'd say we've needed it for about 5 days now. I obviously know nothing about the logisitcs of it, but it would seem to me that offering some stuff that has already been dispatched from KS1 (Like the very popular zombies, or Helsvakt) as a special rank would go a long way towards getting some positive momentum going.

I'm sure Tre has thought of all that at this stage and probably has his reasons for not going down that route, but I'd be really curious as to what they are. We seem stuck between a rock and a hard place right now.

It's a decent thought. Would people be open to the dire wolves counting as a special rank?

Gutsy, my confidence is just that we'll get the bonebacks, which would make this a "success", I think!

Addressing the special rank question would be really good to stop the early backer bleeding and set us up for the last day push, Tre. I am confident because I want bonebacks as specials, and am just buying the dire wolves for my wolf riders. But giving folks a bone on special ranks (either a swap, 1 lesser rank plus 1-2 solos, or another option like dire wolves or a KS1 item) seems like a Reaaaalllyyyy good idea.

I really don't get the angst, it's a goblin KS! I want goblins . But even just dire wolves as special, or lesser as special, or a KS1 item as special, would help. Time for a bold stroke to send a clear message and stop the bleeding Tre

Another update there today, lads. Asking about the campaign again since it's stalled. Get on there and weigh in, for good or ill!

tre manor wrote:Definitely relaunching. I will post a more thorough update and explanation later tonight once I have finalized the changes.

I think "relaunch" means "cancel" since obviously Kickstarter has an approval process and this campaign took about a week to approve, I believe.

At this point it'd probably be best to wait till KS1 items are all shipped. 750 backers on that (I think) vs 155 on this (although it probably would've cleared 200 on the final day) is the reason this was lower, not the quality of the goblin sculpts.

What a huge bummer... I don't know if I can wait longer than September for goblins (which is what the delivery date for this campaign was) so if the new campaign will be later than that...

I was so psyched about these models I even went and bought 20 of the metals while I could still find them. Guess I should have bought more...

I think Tre made the right choice cancelling the campaign, at this point it was just so uncertain whether or not the campaign would experience a large surge in daily pledgers or a substantial drop from the existing backers lowering their pledges. I respect Tre for deciding not to take the risk of continuing this campaign when it could have potentially backfired on him.

 RiTides wrote:

What a huge bummer... I don't know if I can wait longer than September for goblins (which is what the delivery date for this campaign was) so if the new campaign will be later than that...

I was so psyched about these models I even went and bought 20 of the metals while I could still find them. Guess I should have bought more...

Im hoping that Tre might be able keep the current planned goblins casting on schedule. i know Ed doesn't work for free, but if Tre could somehow have the Goblins pre-moulded by the time this Kickstarter is relaunched it would not only cut down dramatically on production time but also give us some finished casts to froth over.

Tre should also consider using the Kickstarter draft feature next time (like the Mongoose Rogue Trooper KS did. ) so we his fans can give the campaign a thorough read over before it goes live.

Unfortunately, Ed won't be doing any pre-molding for a job this far down in his queue I don't think... he has his own kickstarter to fulfill still, which got pushed back as he finished Tre's first kickstarter casting.

He is also doing Impact's chibi miniatures kickstarter, the imbrian arts kickstarter, and I believe a cthulhu one. So he's got a Lot on his plate, although he is ramping up his production (I think he already hired a second assistant and might be getting a larger shop).

I'm just really bummed right now but obviously I'll watch/read what Tre has to say in the next update...

RiTides, I totally understand your disappointment, but I think this was the right call. There was just such a big risk of this ending with a group of backers having pledged for way more than they wanted, which would mean some kind of refund or very unhappy customers. Since you're building an army, you may have still been decently happy with your $300 pledge even if this ended without the bonebacks, but many others would not be. People would have dropped their pledges on the last day (without the bonebacks, I would have had to scale back from $200 to maybe $90 I think; I really don't want that many duplicates if it can be avoided). And if the bonebacks turned out to be a no-go, there would probably have been a few like me who for various reasons didn't have Internet access on the last day, or who just didn't check, and would then be caught with a big pledge and only cheap goblins to spend it on (ie buttloads of duplicates).

I know you were hoping for the last day surge, but I really don't think it would have happened. I don't think existing backers would have increased their pledges much (but the decreases would likely be significant). There would have been new backers, sure, but I don't see new backers coming in on the last day pledging for stuff that isn't unlocked yet. Right now you can get 'one-of-everything' for $60, and it would have taken a *lot* of new backers at that level to get us the bonebacks. Given the lowering of pledges, I think there was a real risk of us ending up below $15K, or even $12,5K. It's just the wrong kind of excitement to have on the last day of a Kickstarter!

This has been tough, but hopefully Tre will come away having learned a lot. I certainly don't harbor any bad feelings, and I'll be back for the next one for sure!

Which makes it all the more frustrating because if he'd simply unlocked things, people wouldn't have had to drop their pledges, new backers would've come in, and we would've passed 25K easily.

Dreamforge really listened to this in their kickstarter- adding in weapon arms and adjusting pledge levels to the bone, resulting in a huge surge beyond what was needed.

If Tre had simply unlocked the bonebacks and even the wolf riders, we probably would've passed the goals for both.

I'm just bummed right now and don't want to be sour grapes. I had to pull a lot of strings to get $300 available by the end of this week and it turns out that it wasn't necessary. I just can't see how this was good or how this needed to be the outcome, there were so many ways to make this succeed and it almost seems sabotaged...

More than anything I am wondering what the hell to do about getting 150 goblins and if Tre will be offering these goblins up in his next campaign, when that campaign will be, if the delivery date will be later (I don't see how this isn't possible) and what the heck he could do to get more people interested, as only 150 were in on this campaign and I really don't think diversifying the offerings is going to bring more in. The only way I see a lot more coming in is all the KS1 items being delivered, which means a long delay... which means delayed goblins

 RiTides wrote:
If Tre had simply unlocked the bonebacks and even the wolf riders, we probably would've passed the goals for both.

This is probably true, but I also understand if Tre didn't want to take this risk.

I'm really sorry about your goblin army plans!

Haha, I actually appreciate that sentiment quite a bit. Thanks for comiserating / feeling my pain!

I'm going to sleep it off and hopefully wake up to a wonderfully clear update from Tre telling us all his plans

Good night bro; it'll turn out good in the end. And by good I mean you will have before you a vast horde of Tre Manor gobbos.

Disappointing, but not really surprising, given the circumstances and choices made. I think Trodax is right, and the last 2 days would have brought this one crashing down as more people pull out - rather than a surge.

I think that one major concern really is that there isn't any real bonus of joining this KS. There were no freebies, not any real discount, etc. I think a lot of people actually held off for this to hit the shelves rather than putting in money for something they may get (most likely with a long delay) or may not get.

Yes, I am all for that RBG is successful, and will support Tre if I can. But the support has to go both ways, I think. Tre gets fundings earlier while the supporters get a better deal. Otherwise, you might just as well drop the KS and work as normally. Maybe the problem is that Tre priced his goblins too low (*gasp*)! For normal trading, this is perfect. The lower you can set the price, the more people might want to pick them up. But for a KS (and how the KS has turned out to become) it isn't working. People are looking at the value. Will they be getting a better deal by backing the project than if they were to pick them up by a "normal" online store? But when Tre priced his goblins so low, maybe it is a problem to offer discounts/better deals then? Which means that people aren't getting a "good deal". What if Tre had set the price 20% higher for each individual figure. What if the solos would cost $6 instead of $5 normally, but during this KS he would "offer a discount" and offer each solo for $5. People would then think they getting a better deal of it, and might back.

So, is the real problem that Tre has set the price too low?!

Depends on how you look at it. These goblins are exceedingly tiny, after all - even compared to Tre's other figures.

I agree with you Grefven, to me the problem with this Kickstarter (Besides the 'special rank' fiasco.) is that it was just the complete opposite of the Helsvakt campaign. There was no exclusive KS model, no freebies, and very little if any discount over the metal versions. Combine all that with the fact that people hadn't yet received their helsvakt KS orders, along with the amount of rival campaigns also running that may have offered better perceived value. (Darklands, SH gnomes.) And all these things formed together to create the perfect storm for a sub-par KS performance.

Im with Azazel when it comes to the goblins, they're absolutely tiny models and from what i can remember the Trollcast goblins in the KS actually cost the same as the metal ones from the RBG website. (I recall buying my 6 spearmen for $12 and the 12 bonebacks for $32 direct from Tre, granted i think i may have purchased them during a $2 off sale back in 2011.)

Tre mentioned over in the 'Crowd source funding' thread on Frothers that if he could redo the Helsvakt campaign he would've offered less of a discount and included only a fraction of the freebies in the highest pledge level. Im guessing that the Goblin campaign was an experiment by Tre to see if he could pull that off, only for the campaign too fall apart in his hands. Im hoping that Tre will find a middle ground for discounts/freebies with the relaunched campaign, enough so that the campaign still has some appeal but small enough so that Tre doesn't have to break bank.

(Link to the Frothers thread if anyone is interested.)
http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40380&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=930
Pages 88-95 are worth a read if you're interested in Tre's opinion of Kickstarter.

Mr Gutsy wrote:
Tre mentioned over in the 'Crowd source funding' thread on Frothers that if he could redo the Helsvakt campaign he would've offered less of a discount and included only a fraction of the freebies in the highest pledge level. Im guessing that the Goblin campaign was an experiment by Tre to see if he could pull that off, only for the campaign too fall apart in his hands. Im hoping that Tre will find a middle ground for discounts/freebies with the relaunched campaign, enough so that the campaign still has some appeal but small enough so that Tre doesn't have to break bank.

(Link to the Frothers thread if anyone is interested.)
http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40380&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=930
Pages 88-95 are worth a read if you're interested in Tre's opinion of Kickstarter.

Interesting read.

There Tre again mentions how he thinks he's sold as many zombies as he ever will... yet, the very first reply someone says they'd buy them if they were for sale, and just last night I had a friend at the game store ask about buying zombies (he was thinking Mantic's).

I said "I know of even better zombies...!" but even though I told him about RBG, I realized that I couldn't direct him to go buy them anywhere.

Edit: Just got a follow-up email from my friend, he tracked down the zombies through the KS and wants to know how to buy them! You've got a market out there, Tre!

Now that we're looking into March and the majority of KS1 backers still have nothing, I'm beginning to wonder if there's something horribly wrong at Ed's shop.

We already had massive delays with Defiance Games, but everyone assumed Tony was being crappy again and Ed said "they didn't follow my advice" and that was that.

But now Ed's been casting RBG KS1 stuff for months and months now and the last KS1 update we've had is Feb 9 indicating the Riders, War Staff, and Conradt still aren't mastered. The last info from Trollforged was Feb 3 saying tons of models "will be in production"...

Ed's own KS are scheduled to ship April/May. He's shown like one completed sculpt. Does anyone thing he'll even be able to make this?

Everythign is fine at Ed's Shop. It was just a LOT of work. Teh helsvakt are literally probably the most difficult thing he will ever undertake. Those little spikes have been a nightmare fro us both and I will NOT be doing anything like that again!

Ed has just a really big work load on him btu they have apparenyl come trhough ont he HelsVakt. Ed informed me this mornign that they have cast 100's of the horses and that I will have a package en route friday. So it shoudl be that by this time next week I will be shippign orders out again.

Tre had posted this update earlier:

Update #11: Red Box Games Miniatures wrote:Hey Y'all,

Well after a great deal of very careful consideration I will be cancelling this KS campaign today. The reason being that we will not make the funding neccessary for the bonebacks and wolf riders and based on most of the private messages I have received and the forum posts and comments I have read those two items are the most desired rewards. I choose rather to be sure that you guys have the items that you actually want than to force you to pay for items that you do not. Believe me it is NOT easy doing this.

My plan from here is to finish two of the wolf riders and concept or finish a wolf rider hero. I will then relaunch the campaign with the first goal covering 6 of the footmen, 6 of the bonebacks, and 2 wolf riders. After that the stretch goals will be spaced apart by $5,000.00 to insure that we regularly achieve to finish filling out the goblin horde. I will also be structuring the rewards in such a way that no one is pledging toward options that do not yet exist so as to avoid the problems we have had here.

Do not worry about the delivery time slipping. I have spoken with Ed and have confirmation that we can keep that date. He understands my reasoning and has confidence in the potential. Further the Relaunch will only be about 1 or 2 weeks away from now. In that time I am going to work very hard to get all the bells and whistles in place for the next campaign to be sure that it is as clear as possible.

I am truly VERY sorry for the frustration that this causes but I assure you that I have the best interests of the final results in mind with this. The LAST thing that I want to do is to let anyone down and I feel that this is the best course of action to avoid that.

One other positive note to bear in mind is that by the time the next campaign begins I will have COMPLETED delivery of the previous KS rewards. Ed informed me this mornign that they have cast 100's of the horses and riders and that I will have a package full of goodies come monday or tuesday of next week. So when the next campaign launches we will have some much needed reinforcements to help us put those stretch goals behind us handily.

Thank you all for your support and patience.

Cheers,

tre'

Personally, now that the disappointment has rolled over me, I'm actually pretty excited about the new campaign. I'll definitely be in it. I had planned to convert my own wolf riders but having them get funded would be fantastic.

I also think getting all the KS1 items out the door is a fantastic plan before launching it. All in all, this could turn out to be a very good thing in the end. Live and learn

 RiTides wrote:
There Tre again mentions how he thinks he's sold as many zombies as he ever will... yet, the very first reply someone says they'd buy them if they were for sale, and just last night I had a friend at the game store ask about buying zombies (he was thinking Mantic's).

I said "I know of even better zombies...!" but even though I told him about RBG, I realized that I couldn't direct him to go buy them anywhere.

Edit: Just got a follow-up email from my friend, he tracked down the zombies through the KS and wants to know how to buy them! You've got a market out there, Tre!

I think this is an important point. Tre was worried about cannabalizing future sales. If you have the money to get the sculpts done, the molds cast, etc, then I agree, it might be a poor choice to use KS, since people are expecting a discount for their pre-order. UNLESS you expect it to be a solid seller afterwards, in which case it might be OK to mostly break even on the sculpt/tooling because your profit will come from the casts afterwards. Tre just needs to build in the "sculptor" fee into the funding, IE, pay himself a fair rate much like other campaigns pay their sculptors. Then it might be worthwhile to run smaller KS projects (10-20k) while (re)building his mold library.

I'm really surprised theres no cost benefit for the family molds. If that's really the case, if he starts again with goblins, just toss out the idea of units entirely. Start with a pack of 4 footmen, a pack of 4 spearmen, a pack of 3 bone backs and 2 wolf riders. That way people who want a particular option can get it from the beginning, even if there isnt the variety in sculpts from the start.

He laid out what he expects to start the next campaign with above:

My plan from here is to finish two of the wolf riders and concept or finish a wolf rider hero. I will then relaunch the campaign with the first goal covering 6 of the footmen, 6 of the bonebacks, and 2 wolf riders. After that the stretch goals will be spaced apart by $5,000.00 to insure that we regularly achieve to finish filling out the goblin horde. I will also be structuring the rewards in such a way that no one is pledging toward options that do not yet exist so as to avoid the problems we have had here.

Do not worry about the delivery time slipping. I have spoken with Ed and have confirmation that we can keep that date.

All of that is fantastic news to me. Obviously, I want all 12 sculpts of the footmen and bonebacks, and I think most people do too, but starting with 6 of each is pretty smart imo (as long as they all unlock by the end ) along with a few wolf riders.

It will please the people who wanted a few of everything, and get everything in at least partially at the beginning.

I think the suggestion folks made of setting a higher initial goal, but also having more initial offerings, is a good idea. I'd be thrilled if all of it could be "available" from the start, with just a much higher funding goal (say 25K). It lets people pledge for what they want

But at this point I think Tre knows exactly what to do and I'm just going to sit on my money and wait for this thing to launch . I think realistically it will be more like a month until it launches, but that's totally fine with me.

The apparent issue with family moulds and trollcast (or other resins) goes a bit like this

imagine a mould with 3 x A, 3 x B, 3 x C, 2 x D and 1 x E made based on what you expect to sell

If you guess wrong and E is a best seller you'll end up with many extras of the rest (you'll have to keep them, resin can't be tossed back in the pot like metal)

You've also got the same problems if one of your mould cavities fails (and casts duds) either straight away, or if it fails a lot faster than the rest

With metal it can be cost effective to just toss the dud casts (or unwanted ones) back in the pot, a spin is only 5 minutes work in a good shop it's not possible with resin as you can't recycle the cast, you have to pay for them.

Individual moulds just make more sense for resin, you get only the figure you want, if too many cavities fail junk the mould and make a new one.

...and a failed cavity can be closed off with a little work and 24H waiting time (just pour in extra rubber!)

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

I think this is an important point. Tre was worried about cannabalizing future sales. If you have the money to get the sculpts done, the molds cast, etc, then I agree, it might be a poor choice to use KS, since people are expecting a discount for their pre-order.

That's the truth. If you want people to pay your costs upfront, and have a 3-6 month wait, you have to give a lot more than if you're selling available product in your store. Look into a loan and see what a bank will charge you.

The RBG fans will pour in a solid $15-20k, but if you want more, you need to give more. I put over $150 into the last kickstarter which included a bunch of figures I didn't need at all for anything and quite a few I'll probably never use or paint - primarily to support Tre' and his business. I justified it to myself by telling myself that I was A) supporting Tre' and B) "what a great deal!" The way things have panned out in the last few months have unfortunately changed my attitude, and the delays are only a small part of what's caused this. I'm not likely to throw $150 into the pot again to support a KS "just because". Not to mention that it's a pretty stupid way to spend my money.

If you want to make $100k selling pre-orders for figures for almost full price but with people fronting you the cash 4-6 months upfront, then you may find you're dreaming. No-one is expecting CMON/Zombiecide/Sedition Wars levels of freebies, giveaways and discounts, but the attitude shown in that Frothers thread and elsewhere does you no favours.

If this is a big problem, perhaps stop using Kickstarter and save up your own cash for the moulds, just like you used to do a year ago.

Well, there is drama to say the least on the KS page. The issue seems to be, from Trollforged perspective, Red Box Games approved the horse casts in December (after several molds were made). 600 have been cast, but now, in April, Red Box Games is saying that they are miscast and need to be re-done. Personally, I don't know if those are the worst examples, but even if they are given that it is the belly / underside of the horses that is the issue, I would say that they need to be shipped.

The other issue is that of payment. Trollforged has had to put a lot of extra work into these without extra payment. Having cast 600 already, is it reasonable to ask them to cast more without paying? It all depends on what the "verbal approval" was, but if some of these have been in-hand since December, to me it does not seem reasonable to say they are unacceptable now. I have a good friend that does resin casting and in bulk this is going to be something you might see on the underside of models. Again, I wonder if these are worst-case or not.

If we could keep this discussion civil, and avoid a lot of the drama, I think everyone involved would really appreciate it.

If you are/were waiting on horses from this kickstarter, would you want these shipped to you? If not, can you think of an alternative at this point?

Personally, I cannot think of an alternative. People knew there were risks involved here, I would just ship these and folks can greenstuff the bellies of their horses if they think somehow people will see them







The first two in particular just look like normal resin casting to me. Who's going to see the belly of a horse? You could say you were expecting better, but come on, this is kickstarter . Also, if Ed was only paid $13K for the entire job (that number was mentioned but not sure what it was for) and is now $5K in the hole on this, I don't know what more you can expect. It was an $80K kickstarter. To me, it sounds like it's too late in the process to reject the casts (if some were approved in December) after 600 have been made. You've got to just toss out the really bad ones and ship the rest, in my opinion.

Thoughts on this appreciated...

I personally would take those casts. Most of it looks like the problems you'd get from having to cast a full horse rather than just separate parts for the legs etc. That's a bad way to cast a miniature in my opinion, it's just asking for problems, which have shown up.

I actually do want to buy some of these, so long as the flaws don't make them impossible to clean up with filing or filling with green stuff. If Tre isn't happy, he needs to agree to have the horses legs removed and cast individually, as well as the rest, and pony (pun intended) the cash up for it. Otherwise he should take them as they are and offer a mea culpa to the buyers.

The longer this kickstarter drags on the more tempers are going to get frayed on both sides. I would like to buy some of the Helsvakt, and would buy some of the horses too if he wanted to get rid of the damaged stock. But above all I would (if I were a backer), want a resolution asap, as well as miniatures in my hands. It's gone on too long imho, and needs to be solved asap.

Not placing blame on any particular party here, I know there are two sides to a story, but I would like to see it resolved so the backers can get their Helsvakt, and people like me can also buy some of these fine miniatures.

as a backer I've said ship them to me as is,

My green stuff/knife/file skills are up to fixing the problems (if they can be seen when they're based anyway

(They're no worse than many resin bit's I've had over the years)

My guess is the earlier stuff was crisper, and the problems have developed as the moulds have worn and the most recent delivery hit the 'Tre's, oh I notice a problem' level',

nobody's fault really and a shame tempers have frayed on both sides

they're pretty garbage but they were noticed only now? whatevs, i just want my figures now.

if it's just the bellies and not the rest of the horses that look like that WTF is that even a problem? Can't be sure from just those pics but it seems the rest is nice and crisp - I'd still be kicking myself for not getting into this KS for a fethton of horses if that's the final product...

I wouldn't be super happy, but at this point I just want my models.
If Ed didn't think his material could handle casting the horse as a single piece he shouldn't have taken the job with those parameters. I wouldn't take a job that I knew could reflect poorly on me just because the client wanted to save money.

Well on the bright side....

Instant nurgle horses!

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well on the bright side....

Instant nurgle horses!

Isn't that on the Blight side


In all seriousness, they look 'okay', not great, but okay. I'd agree with the previous suggestion of just weeding out any horrible ones, and sending stuff for the sake of sending stuff... and in the future do mounts as multipart models.

I'm of the mind that these aren't a difficult fix and may not even require a fix when based. Wish Tre would have shown a profile shot to give an idea if the issue is even noticeable under normal conditions. In for one of each sculpt so I'd prefer them shipped at this point.

I think they look pretty horrible. I understand that backers might be frustrated and simply want their models in their hands, but that level of quality is not acceptable. I wouldn't want to have to go in and greenstuff those bellies, and if you're paying for a product that (I'm assuming here) was advertised as being reasonably anatomically correct, customers should not accept that quality either. They need to be redone.
If you saw those models in a GW blister with 'Finecast' on it, everyone would be wailing, moaning and knashing their teeth at how poor it is. What's the difference?

One word: Kickstarter

Seriously, people pledged for these based on artwork alone. Air bubbles in bellies aren't fantastic, but it was a new material/process and a calculated risk.

If they are to be re-done, someone must pay for it and I don't see that happening. If I were waiting for horses, I'd want these now, rather than others who knows when.

I'd love to see a pic of them upright- I bet the rest looks fantastic.

 RiTides wrote:
I'd love to see a pic of them upright- I bet the rest looks fantastic.

I second that!

 RiTides wrote:
One word: Kickstarter

Seriously, people pledged for these based on artwork alone. Air bubbles in bellies aren't fantastic, but it was a new material/process and a calculated risk.

If they are to be re-done, someone must pay for it and I don't see that happening. If I were waiting for horses, I'd want these now, rather than others who knows when.

I'd love to see a pic of them upright- I bet the rest looks fantastic.

This is the sort of quality that Ed feels is acceptable to deliver to his customers, approved at one point or not, I'm glad that I resold my Assimilation Alien Host pledge and that Imbrian Arts is switching to metal.

Well, here's a pic of the horses from a normal angle:



For the price, I think people are really sounding off about this more than is reasonable. I feel the opposite way- the more I see of this material, the more excited I am about Ed doing his own stuff. I pledged big for the alien assimilation host, and assuming he doesn't try to cast something with four legs as a single cast, I think things will turn out great. Just like every part of that horse did, except for the bottom.

You can blame Ed for not being adamant about breaking the horse up into pieces before casting it, but it sounds like he did want to (and probably should have insisted). I really doubt he'll make this same mistake with his own stuff- or anyone's stuff, for that matter... he's clearly revising the terms of doing business after this unfortunate circumstance

Anyway, here's a post from the comments, due to the difference between kickstarter handles and forum names I don't know if it's the same person who posted the above (the above is from our own weeble1000, I believe).

Jason, it looks bad in those photos, but honestly now that I am looking at the horse I received, the underside is pretty consistent with that. This is the same horse I photographed and posted pics of on the RBG forums. As you know Jason, I am pretty anal about mold lines. When I pulled the horse out of the bag these barely registered with me, because from most angles where you view the horse you honestly can't see them.
Now having seen them, I want to remove them, but it is actually very fast work with a hobby knife, much to my surprise. The one bit that is upsetting is that one of the low hanging skulls had a bubble that took out the bottom part of the jaw. Again, not something that jumped out at me, nor something that anyone appeared to notice in the photos I took.
All in all, I would not be upset by this horse mini unless I was looking for something to be mad about. The rest of the cast came out so darn well, spikes, skulls, chains, musculature, fur. Obviously, I love Tre's work and am a bit biased, but I honestly did jot think that my horse cast had any problems.

So, imo this is a bit of a mountain out of a molehill, and is indicative of the frayed relationship between the two companies at this point. Best for everybody to resolve this as quickly as possible and move on. I for one intend to continue to heartily support both companies... searching for some RBG bonebacks right now, and very chuffed about the alien host that Ed is making. It also doesn't look like he'll be lacking for outside work with how happy Impact has been with his casts.

Part ways, and lesson learned! Looking forward to future RBG releases in metal, and trollforged ones in plastic but with more stringent casting advice from Ed (i.e. no more horses as single pieces ). But personally the horse above looks absolutely fine to me- if it's got air bubbles under it's belly, I REALLY wouldn't care if I'd been waiting as long as the RBG kickstarter backers have.

Ok seriously, after you base these guys who is going to look at the belly

Because those side pics look ace!