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 Trodax wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Most Americans don't say the "bee's knees" but that is hilarious

Ah, I see, perhaps my English is a tad outdated. I'll try to become more 'down with the kids' and start spicing it up with 'nifty' and 'groovy' then.

Almost at $16K now, at least we have a trickle of movement!

Hey now, I still say "bee's knees," though certainly not "whoopsie daisies." But now I've gone and referenced a rom com....whoopsie daisies!

I certainly hope that we can reach the Bonebacks. I think it is doable. If I had time, I would be busily painting up my RBG goblins to sow off, but this month has been a little slice of work Hell already. It aint half over yet, and there's still Mardi Gras tomorrow and Valentine's Day left to go.

I can say that those Bonebacks are awesome sauce. I also upped my pledge just now to pick up some more Dire Wolves and we hit $16,000.00!

With almost half of the project let to go we will get to the Bonebacks at least, but my eye is on those goblin wolf riders!

In the comments Tre said he's going to split the Bonebacks- unlock 6 at 20K and the other 6 at 25K. Should be in an update today I think.

Saw that, but I'm waiting for something slightly more official before I update the thread title.

That's a smart move - it'll give the campaign more achievable goals to meet. 2x $5k is psychologically much easier to hit than 1x $10k.

Just sent out the update. Tis official!

Awesome, thanks Tre! Update the thread title when you get the chance, czakk

I decided to do a little price comparison with Tre's biggest competitor in the scale (GW Lotr figures). In my example I have tried to compare like with like as much as possible, and I've used what I consider to be equivalent models. You could disagree, for example, that Bonebacks and Hunter Orcs are equivalent, and that would tip this further in Tre's favour as you'd likely have to use the expensive finecast blister packs to make up your units of "elites". But my idea was based around building a sizeable warband for LOTR skirmish or a smallish force for WOTR using the different models.
I used Tre's highest pledge level as the starting point and then added additions to beef up my selections.
Warband One: Cavalry and Infantry
GW Prices (Dollars)
Total Cost 299

24 of each kind of Goblin, bow, spear and hand weapon, 4 figure variants for each. (72 Moria Goblins total)
24 "elites" (hunter orcs), 12 figure variants.
2 Heroes, (I picked the two cheapest options here)
6 Wolves
6 Warg Riders
vs.
RBG Prices (Dollars)
Total Cost 240

24 of each kind of goblin,bow, spear and hand weapon, 3 figure variants for Archers, 12 for the rest. (72 RBG Goblins total)
24 "elites" (Bonebacks), 12 figure variants,
2 heroes,
6 wolves,
4 Wolf Riders
(Note: Tre's sets mean you have 2 less wolf riders in this method. Increase the price by 35 if you want two extra- GW's Wolf Riders are cheaper but perhaps lack visual consistency with the Moria Goblin range.)

Warband Two: Monster Focused

383 (As above, but with the Warg Riders swapped out for 4 Cave Trolls)
vs.
275 (As above but with the Wolf Riders replaced with Troll Brothers + 1 extra set of Troll Brothers)

Here you can see that if you'd like some trolls in your warband, Tre offers a hefty potential discount over GW, assuming we get as far as the trolls.

Food for thought! I think any comparison of Tre's Goblins to the Moria Goblins set (which was really nice when released, but is showing it's age perhaps) is going to come out in Tre's favour. His miniatures are more detailed and possess much greater character and a much greater variety of poses. Similarly, Bonebacks are much more dynamic than the GW hunter orcs. Where Tre really wins though is on his reasonable prices for heroes compared to GW.

Also worth considering is that if the pricing structure stays the same, the price to get an equivalent number of RBG Goblins is going to go up after the kickstarter- these numbers are utilising the fairly nice discount available through the Kickstarter.

Nice post, Da Boss! I know I want Tre's goblins and as you say they are discounted from what they will cost later.

Also, I believe you can stack pledges, so you don't need to pay full add-on price for additions, but can get another discounted pledge. I think that would make the numbers even more in favor of RBG.

Nice breakdown Da Boss; thanks for doing that!

Trouble at t' mill

Update #7 Reorganize and Relaunch??

Hey Everybody,

Ok after much very careful consideration I am wondering if the best course of action would be to re-organize and relaunch the campaign. I think that I prioritized the campaign poorly and this has resulted in the extended stall that we have seen here. I am VERY grateful for the support that this campaign has received thus far and I do consider this a success, but I cannot help but feel that many of you are pledging for goals that we have not yet reached. My fear is that we may not reach these goals and that you will be disappointed in the end.

My idea is to relaunch with a mix of the Dvergr and Goblins as the overall goal of the campaign. The first goal would be a small group of Dwarven adventurers ( 5 ) and the new goblin footmen. The second goal would be half of the bonebacks ( 6 ), the third goal would be the other half of the bonebacks and then the fourth would be an expansion of the Dvergr, then followed by the wolf riders and so on. It is my belief that this mix of themes and focus on the more popular goals would move the campaign MUCH faster through the goals and thus make your contributions more satisfactorily diverse and secure........Also this would allow enough time in the campaign for more KS1 orders to reach their destinations and bring more contributors into this campaign.
I hesitate to even publish this as I do not want to create any impression of instability but I also want to make sure that no one is let down by the final results of the campaign either.

Please post your thoughts to this update.

Cheers Y'all,

Tre'

So that's the question Tre's asking

I don't actually know if you can stop a funded KS (It's clear you can kill unfunded ones), but assuming he can what do folk here think of the idea

I know I don't want Dverger so the potential new structure would be less interesting to me, BUT I do need at least one special rank to fund or I'll need to drop/cancel my pledge

I'd need to run a calculator over things to decide,

smaller pledges have less value and I have to anticipate a about an additional 20% +£10 ($15) in tax so it might just to expenive to continue


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Tre's make another post explaining why he needs individual moulds for each figure (instead of say a single mould with 12 bonebacks in)

Well family moulds for this is a no go. Look at it this way the mould itself is one cost that is quickly absorbed but the per spin cost ( labour ) is a consistent cost that never gets absorbed. So if I have a moudl that has 12 figures cast per spin then I might pay for the mould quickly but I will have to pay FAR more after having to spin that mould once per set of figures when I need 500 sets. If I pay for 12 moulds that each produce 16 copies per figure per spin then I save a LOT of money on the per spin cost and absorb the cost of the mould itself rather quickly ( provided the goals are met ).

I MIGHT be able to make a partial family mould system work but then I am beholden to other problems, i.e. Labour costs of sorting, QCing and packaging. AND then there is also the spectre of mis-registration. Sometimes in family moulds you might have one or two cavities that don't fill properly or maybe have a consistent flaw. When this happens you are always going to have uneven numbers of figures in the set. And with Ed's material you cannot just toss the extras back into the pot to be recycled.

Individual moulds in this process will only speed everything up TREMENDOUSLY. Brian will no longer cry himself to sleep dreaming of demoulding and sorting THOUSANDS of goblins. If I made him go through what he has for the undead with the goblins he will curse my name with his last breath.

It certainly is a long stretch, but we can make it.

Well

And, as is predictable, with this update pledges are dropping like crazy. Unfortunate :(

Not like crazy, only $200. And up 1 backer since I last checked!

2 wolf rider WIPs tomorrow he said in the comments

Oh, I hadn't checked this project much. The last time I checked, it was up around 16300, so I thought more had dropped after the update. Today has been a net loss of $336 though. Rough trade.

We have lost more than $5000.00 total over th elife of the project.

Backers has held steady at about 150, and we're still right at 16K. Those wolf riders WIPs should tempt more in

 tre manor wrote:
We have lost more than $5000.00 total over th elife of the project.

:(

I am one of those that dropped my pledge down. If the wolf riders don't fund I will have to drop it again. It seem that your pledge levels are working against the kickstarter. I wouldn't lose faith though you have made a decent dent in your goblins.

People need to understand that you can cancel your pledge all the way up the end of the project. I don't really get why some people drop during a project. I haven't pledged myself as I have no need / just don't like Goblins but I've been reading the updates and watching it closely.

Sure there are a few real life issues that force a cancellation, but if you're only uncertain about the end goal then you should just keep it in till near the end.

I think that for a KS focused purely on goblins it's doing ok. This was always going to be a niche project. I think for the next one having two races and alternating would be good as long as the rewards levels contain value right from the get go.

I don't think pledge levels should rely on making stretch goals - the very first person backing has to feel they are getting value with their pledge. Anything else adds uncertainty, and you can always add in more if the project takes off, but it's hard to take anything away (which is what not making a stretch goal is going to feel like).

Still the bottom line is this has made its stated goal, some Goblins will now be made, so it should be considered a success

 Surloch wrote:
People need to understand that you can cancel your pledge all the way up the end of the project. I don't really get why some people drop during a project. I haven't pledged myself as I have no need / just don't like Goblins but I've been reading the updates and watching it closely.

Sure there are a few real life issues that force a cancellation, but if you're only uncertain about the end goal then you should just keep it in till near the end.

I think that for a KS focused purely on goblins it's doing ok. This was always going to be a niche project. I think for the next one having two races and alternating would be good as long as the rewards levels contain value right from the get go.

I don't think pledge levels should rely on making stretch goals - the very first person backing has to feel they are getting value with their pledge. Anything else adds uncertainty, and you can always add in more if the project takes off, but it's hard to take anything away (which is what not making a stretch goal is going to feel like).

Still the bottom line is this has made its stated goal, some Goblins will now be made, so it should be considered a success

People can and should do whatever they feel best with their pledges over the course of a campaign. No-one seems to complain when people bump their pledges to get more add-ons, yet they bitch when people lower their pledges during the course of a campaign. That's just part and parcel of using a platform like Kickstarter. I've not pledged on this myself either, for the reasons I've elaborated on a half-dozen times already. I'm not sure how clever it would be to reorganise the KS with only 9 days to go. Methinks Tre would be better letting it go the distance and simply fund the smaller goblins, or swap the bonebacks in as an earlier level, or something like that.

If he starts to mix in Dwarves or Elves or whatever while removing some of the already-funded goblins, he's just going to run the risk of alienating many of the people that have gone in on this one, and other people who might be interested in dwarves but still don't have their KS1 stuff aren't going to suddenly jump in with both feet and hundreds of dollars...





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Just re-read RiTides post.. so he wants to cancel this campaign and relaunch it? That's insanity, especially after hearing so many times about how Tre' "had" to launch a new Kickstarter as soon as possible, regardless of KS1 fulfilment because of "Ed's schedule". (We also heard about how this one would be 40 or 45 days long to enable everyone to get their KS1 items - this was before the later difficulties in fulfilment). Well, the goal here was $5k. He's got $15k in pledges. Call it a success. Get people all their gak from both Kickstarters, then launch a third one for Bonebacks and dwarves or whatever.





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/Facepalm.

Tre said this in the comments:

Creator tre manor 1 day ago
Well if the Wolf Riders do nto fund then they probably wont get made for quite a while if at all. Part of the point here is to be able to pay myself for the time it takes to actually sculp tthe figures. If a figure's concept cannot sell it then I have to concentrate my efforts on those concepts that do sell the sculpt. This is the new reality of Kickstarter. Before I coudl just sculpt whatever I wanted and produce it and know that there was a pretty good chance of a successful sell through. Now most people have their funds tied up in kickstarter campaigns and are not looking through the established market for their needs. So, a concept that does not fund through kickstarter, just does not get made, or at the very least prioritized. It really sucks.

So he's judging the success failure of the Wolf Riders, which aren't even fething available here yet - or for another three stretch goals based on the performance so far.


Tre', I know you'll read this, and I'm going to be plain.
You haven't finished fulfilling the KS1 orders = lost pledgers on this KS.
The Wolf Riders aren't available. The Bonebacks aren't even available and won't be for another $10k worth of pledges.
The Wolf Riders actually become an option after $19k more is raised. In a campaign that has $16k pledged.

How can you reasonably expect people to pledge now for the Wolf Riders?
How can you even reasonably attempt to judge the popularity of Wolf RIders based on the above?
I mean, using the above criteria, you may as well can the bonebacks forever, since they're the models for the next stretch goal that have "failed" to bring the campaign onward (hint - the people who want the Bonebacks have already pledged for them in anticipation. You need more backers.


On a related note - with no freebies, limited discounts, no exclusive models, don't expect a campaign to do gangbusters numbers. You have a following of dedicated RBG fans who undoubtedly make up a core of this KS. You have a 300% funded level. It's already success. It's just that tiny goblins don't hold as much of a broad appeal as Spiky Not-Chaos Warriors and Zombies, and since people are still waiting on those, it narrows the market again somewhat. Now you know for next time. Full fulfilment, and Bonebacks up front!

The non-fulfillment of the first KS is probably hurting this one more than anything. I know five other people who are still waiting on KS1 items before they pledge for KS2. I am the only person I know who has pledged into KS2 without receiving KS1 stuff.

Regardless, I am getting a TON of goblins from this one!

NO ONE is more disappointed by the delay in fulfillment of the the first KS campaign. BELIEVE me when I say that. If it is any consolation due to that delay I will probably spend an additional $3,000.00 to $4,000.00 that was not budgeted to ship all of the packages IF I am lucky.

I have worked for 5 years to build the business that I have, and I feel as if I have thrown it over a cliff. I am not trying to take advantage of anyone, I trying like hell to survive in this new business enviornment where there are new companies emerging every few days with product that they can sell to the tune of multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars without ever ONCE delivering on their promises or even showing you the actual product you are paying for!

Meanwhile existing products just sit on the shelf AND the entirety of product in the market is consistently devalued as the kickstarter " freebie " factor eats away at the perceived value of all product. I won't even begin to go into how much money I lost on the first KS. I am going over the numbers now and it is STAGGERING how much " value " there was in those pledges for the backers.

This stuff costs money to produce, and that cost is not always mitigated by volume. In fact it is ONLY mitigated by volume when you use injection moulded plastic which necessitates a loss of detail ( DESPITE what you are being told by most manufacturers in the advertising. ) and a greater cost in tooling.

It very well may be that if I do not retool my entire line then I might as well pack it in because the prices being demanded now are such that I cannot maintain a business in metal production. THAT is the reality here.

The timing of this campaign was less than optimal but it was necessary. I have discontinued all of my metal production for the sake of retooling in plastic to afford to be able to offer product at competitive prices in a changing market. Further I am restricted from campaigning to raise funding for that transition until I am able to deliver ont eh promises from each campaign. Then I am retricted by the capacity of my production partner. SO the BEST way forward is to fund as much product as possible all at once to be able to afford to operate between this time and the next campaign.

I did not create this game and I am not even really trying to win it, I am just trying to keep my spot on the team.

Tre don't act like KS2 is not a success, you've got $15k so far, over 3x what was required. After all KS1 and KS2 are fulfilled then do the next KS to fund the Dvergr and whatever else.

I wonder what the long term effects of kickstarter mania will be on the industry. It seems to be hitting satura
tion point. I have only pledged for the RBG kickstarter as I know the quality of the product. I hope this all works out for you and I'd say being conservative is the right approach for the next few months.

I actually really like the idea of conservative projects. Shooting for the moon means that delays are inevitable, which can affect reputations, timetables, and cause jaded backers to walk away.

Personally, I think you would do best retooling small chunks of models very quickly. It would make for a smoother process, I think. Doing them in big spurts is just a ton of logistics to juggle all at once. I vote finishing out this project, do it fast and well, and watch the next one attract more customers.

Good point, recruttons.

I wouldnt treat not reaching the wolf riders or bonebacks as a lack of interest. Lots of people pledged for levels which include special ranks (of which there arent any) specifically to get those minis. From what I saw in comments, people wanted those more than the smaller goblins. Since they arent going to be shared molds, you could run a KS with one wolf rider at 3k, 2 at 6k, all 4 at 10k etc and they will fund rather quickly. Same with the banebacks. Just do the math, figure out how much you need to make it worth your time, and go from there. If you get X pre-orders for a product, it gets made.

I wonder how many people didnt pledge on this one not because they didnt get everything from the first KS, but because they dont have anything in Trollcast, and want to see the medium before pledging more. That was why I held off. After I get something in trollcast, and judge it for myself, I'm much less concerned about having multiple outstanding kickstarters from the same vendor.

Well I don't think there is a lack of interest in the Wolf Riders or Bonebacks it is more the opportunity for creating successful product that I was referring to. As per the idea of launchign a new KS with the bonebacks and riders..... well that is exactly what i woudl do BUT I will have to deliver on this stuff first which means a delay between now and the time of the next KS, and then there is also the delay between that KS and final fulfillment. Ugh..... What happened to the good old days of makign something and putting it up in a store??

 tre manor wrote:

Well I don't think there is a lack of interest in the Wolf Riders or Bonebacks it is more the opportunity for creating successful product that I was referring to. As per the idea of launchign a new KS with the bonebacks and riders..... well that is exactly what i woudl do BUT I will have to deliver on this stuff first which means a delay between now and the time of the next KS, and then there is also the delay between that KS and final fulfillment.

Good to hear! I'll be in on that one for sure

Ugh..... What happened to the good old days of makign something and putting it up in a store??

Well, you still can. But this way at least you know the mold/sculpt cost will be covered going in (at least, once you get all your variables sorted out). You have a loyal fan base, so you might be able to do the equivalent of a kickstarter on your own website (and bypass Amazon/KS fees) to avoid laying out everything up front out of your pocket and hope sales come in fast enough afterwards.

Agreed, Tre. Kickstarter mania has destabilised the market.

Wolf Rider WIPS

Hey Y'all,

Ok in the interest of moving thigns along mor epositively I have here the WIP shots of to of the Wolf Rider mounts. i have not yet begun on the legs of the riders but the way these will be made is that the riders legs and the wolves will be one part and then the rider's upper bodies ( with weapon and shield ) will be a second part. In the interest of bringing these a little closer into reach I am going to make one set of 3 modular figures instead of 4 modular figures. I will also increase the number of figures in the Wolf Rider Ranks to 6 instead of four. This way you will get 2 repeats of 3 unique riders kits. Each part will be universally interchangeable so this should offer quite a bit of potential for customization. IF the riders fund then I will also try to work up a goal for a second set of rider's torsos that will offer archer options for the wolf rider ranks.

Cheers Y'all!

Tre'

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Some folks are having trouble seeing the image, so I'll upload it here: