I was reading my codex again, and torturing my brain for a reason to take hellhounds, as they're so cool, but have generally been crummy.

As others have noted, it seems like they really rather need to have the hull multimelta, as a tank that can ONLY target light infantry was already of shaky use in 5th ed, and now in 6th ed, your needs for dedicated anti-light infantry are lessened, while the need to be able to crack serious armor has gone up.

But problems immediately arose once I started to look at this hellhound setup comparatively. For example, four hellhounds costs basically the same as three leman russ eradicators with multimelta sponsons. While the hellhounds give you 3 more HP, and more speed in reacting with the defensive weapons that are multimeltas, the eradicators give you 2 more multimeltas, 3 heavy bolters, and AV14, which all sounds like a much, much better deal. Likewise, four hellhounds stacking up against two medusas and two colossuses isn't very flattering to the hellhound either. In fact, four hellhounds don't even look all that much better than four squads of meltavets in 2x heavy flamer chimeras, and that's on scoring units.

It's starting to make me wonder, seriously, is there a point to hellhounds? For their cost, it doesn't seem like they do much that other units in the game can't do with better armor, longer ranges, or scoring, or are just plain old better. How often are you seriously going to need a hellhound in specific compared to its other alternatives?

I also ran the same kind of thinking for the devil dog and it was mostly the same. Compare, at equal points, 6 devil dogs to 4 las/multimelta vanquishers and you see something that loses out on 25% serious anti-tank weapons and AV14, but does gain 50% more hull points, I suppose.

Still...

Ailaros your over thinking this..

First off the HH shares a FA slot with the Vendetta...strike one

On the plus side its a fast, AV 12/!2?10 vehicle with a STR6/AP4 torrent flamer. You cannot compare it to the eradicator simply because the the HH is many times more accurate with its shot.

The killer about the HH is that its not AP3. Against MEQs your getting dangerously close to to assault range or melta rage to MEQ to use a flamer that will not deny their armor save.

Against Xenos it rocks but then again how many Xenos do you play against?

Glocknall wrote:You cannot compare it to the eradicator simply because the the HH is many times more accurate with its shot.

Well yes you can. The torrent weapon is more accurate, but it's also much, much shorter range. Not only does this mean the eradicator hits faster, and always has a wider range of targets (and can engage them from a position of more safety), but it can also more easily hit the most concentrated part of a cluster of enemy infantry, rather than the part of the infantry that's closest to 12" from the tank.

Plus, if all you're trying to do is hit a big mob of infantry, it's not like the eradicator is THAT inaccurate. If you can scatter 3" and still count it as a hit, the eradicator is BS4. If you can count a scatter of 5" a hit, then it's BS5, and it only really misses when it scatters entirely off of any infantry, which is certainly possible, but it's definitely all that terrible.

 Ailaros wrote:

Glocknall wrote:You cannot compare it to the eradicator simply because the the HH is many times more accurate with its shot.

Well yes you can. The torrent weapon is more accurate, but it's also much, much shorter range. Not only does this mean the eradicator hits faster, and always has a wider range of targets (and can engage them from a position of more safety), but it can also more easily hit the most concentrated part of a cluster of enemy infantry, rather than the part of the infantry that's closest to 12" from the tank.

Plus, if all you're trying to do is hit a big mob of infantry, it's not like the eradicator is THAT inaccurate. If you can scatter 3" and still count it as a hit, the eradicator is BS4. If you can count a scatter of 5" a hit, then it's BS5, and it only really misses when it scatters entirely off of any infantry, which is certainly possible, but it's definitely all that terrible.

Oh and this is coming from the King of Displacement!!!

If you actually measure threat range the HH its 32". The eradicator actually comes in at just about the same threat range with less accuracy. The eradicator benifits from better AV and range to threat, but will not seriously worry any player it comes against., The HH can scour any number of Zenos away from their AGLs and also has scout to boot for alpha strike.

In the end their both lackluster choices. Whats why you never see them on the tabletop.....

HH's are just those SnG's type of units that are fun for a fire ouchy burn burn type of army

just like every other codex they have a few useless things in their dex that people try to make use of but in the end other things will just out preform it

ex. SM Whirlwind, find a use for that in a competitive environment and you are the most tactical genius of a lifetime

You could use them for a CoD battle with a lot of buildings. They'd be nice for clearing out a bunch of hostile mobs with their flamethrowers. Otherwise leave them at home. e

One thing you're forgetting is the 4hellhounds vs 3eradicators is the extra hellhound's main gun

you lose AV14, 3x Heavy Bolters, and 2 multimeltas, yes

but you gain

one more Str 6 AP 4 autohitting ignores cover, Fast vehicle, 3 more hull points, and not giving up a heavy support slot.

I've had fun using them, but at 130 pts base, they are damned expensive for what they do. They work great against 4+Sv units, but everything else they seem to get counter attacked and meltad to death without even doing anything. I think after a few games of running one, and two in my lists, I'm going to have to look elsewhere to spend the points.

when versing xenos? HH
when versing anything else? stick to LRBT's

Well, even if the hellhounds are slightly more efficient for bringing anti-infantry firepower (which I still find dubious, a 24" torrent weapon has a long way to go before it becomes a 42" large blast), it's still flimsier, and still has worse over-all quality with poorer access to melta than an eradicator. And that's just one of the things that outcompetes it, amongst several.

I'm left to re-ask my initial question, when do you specifically need a hellhound, because nothing else will do?

a fortuned harlequin squad with a shadowseer

 Ailaros wrote:


I'm left to re-ask my initial question, when do you specifically need a hellhound, because nothing else will do?

Never, unless your heavy support is full.

A GumyBear wrote:a fortuned harlequin squad with a shadowseer

... say hello to flamer stormies or eradicator or colossuses, or flamer vets jumping out of a vendetta, or a vendetta with cover-hating missiles, or, or...

Unit1126PLL wrote:Never, unless your heavy support is full.

Well, I'd really like to think there's SOMETHING to them.

6th edition means the Devil Dog is damn effective. It will hit land raiders pretty much 100% of the time, and even smaller vehicles most of the time.

Problem is unless your opponent uses Land Raiders they're pretty rubbish. The only tanks it gets to hurt tend to be cheap transports, even if it pops one it's usually a turn after the transport has done its job.

Vanilla hellhounds are rubbish though. Even against nid horde lists. Displacement means you get at most 3 models.

Glocknall wrote:
Against Xenos it rocks but then again how many Xenos do you play against?

What are the top-tier armies in today's meta?

Partially it depends on your local meta, but the best ones I've seen are the following
- Necrons (wraith and flyer spam)
- Daemons
- Grey Knights
- IG
- DE beast pack cheese

Of those, the hellhound will do fine against 3.
Two of them will basically counter the last one completely -- which would otherwise roll over an IG army.

As a final note -- Vendettas are indeed awesome. When the new flyer book comes out later this month, I expect the price of them to increase by about 50 points.

You know those low points combat patrol games? They're pretty popular in the game shops in the two towns near where I live. The restriction on armour and characters causes a lot of people to leave all their tanks and AT at home. The flimsyness isn't an issue, heavier options aren't an option, and being able to kill a lot of dudes in cover is useful.

The ap4 is a huge hurt though.

A fantastic use for them is scaring hoard armies into wasting their time on it.

If they ignore it, it can mess up some targets of opportunity.

All in all though...... meh.

Codex isn't in hand, quick question: does the Bane Wolf torrent?

3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

BryllCream wrote:6th edition means the Devil Dog is damn effective. It will hit land raiders pretty much 100% of the time, and even smaller vehicles most of the time.

?

The new blast rules bring devil dogs up to BS3, where large blast templates were before 6th. They do not hit 100% of the time, far from it.

maceria wrote:low points combat patrol games?

Okay, now this I could actually see. Mostly because a lot of the better options are restricted.

At this point, though, I think I might still be more tempted by heavy bolter HWSs and flamer stormies.

The advantage I see in the hell hound (or devil dog) is the speed.
People deploy their units with the crap up front and the good stuff in the back. Pulling kills from the front means that slower tanks are picking off models my opponent is willing to give up.
Speed gives me shooting angles that let me have more control over who dies in a unit.
As far as why take a fast attack tank at all, it's saturation. You don't take them instead of 3 heavies, you take them with your 3 heavies.
As soon as you hit a 2nd force org, it's harder to justify.

I haven't got to try it yet, but I'm going to ally in some dark angel power fields. AV12 side army is decent against lighter guns, and a 4++ is going to make them decent vs heavy guns. We'll see.


-Matt

Hell Hounds were pretty slick when Scarab Farms were big. Now? Meh...

But the only advantage you're talking about with speed is to have longer range to short-ranged guns. Why don't you just take longer ranged guns?

Because not having guardsmen dieing in droves is heresy

 Ailaros wrote:

BryllCream wrote:6th edition means the Devil Dog is damn effective. It will hit land raiders pretty much 100% of the time, and even smaller vehicles most of the time.

?

The new blast rules bring devil dogs up to BS3, where large blast templates were before 6th. They do not hit 100% of the time, far from it.

They will vs a Land Raider.

I liked playing them a lot in 5th, them and the Banewolf (I know I know, but hey I used to play a null deployment army, and it was great at lighting up deepstriking MEQ's)

I don't think it makes sense to compare the HH directly to the Vendetta. If your FA slots are completely full of Vendettas then OK, it's an either or, but if not they serve totally different purposes.

Being able to flush 4+ armor out of cover at 24-32" is pretty good. The price isn't that high compared to an equivalent Leman Russ, and it's not competing for Heavy Support slots (this is where my Mantircores and LR squad goes).

If were talking 100% competitive sure, there are better options. For your average game I don't see a reason not to take one if you like the model.

BryllCream wrote:They will vs a Land Raider.

Well, the blast template has only a 1.5" radius. Let's say that from the center of a land raider you can scatter 2.5" and that's when the hole just goes off (though land raiders aren't 5" wide, let's be generous and say that they are. That means you can scatter 4" and still at least wing it with the template. Throw on the BS3 and that means that you hit if you hit, or you hit if you scatter and roll a 7 or less.

7 is in the middle of the bell curve, which means you're hitting about half of the time you miss, which means you're hitting about 2/3ds of the time. Which means you're still only BS4. Against a target that we've made artificially large.

If you're never missing land raiders, that means you're lucky, not that devil dogs have phenomenal accuracy.

More Dakka wrote:I don't think it makes sense to compare the HH directly to the Vendetta.

Not even a little. I don't know why people are bringing things up.

Well, that's not true, we could be talking about a hellstrike missile vendetta, but I'm guessing that that's not what people mean.

More Dakka wrote:The price isn't that high compared to an equivalent Leman Russ

But it rather is. Only 30 more points gets you a much better range, way better armor, and the ability to put a lot of bargain hull weapons on it.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
Against Xenos it rocks but then again how many Xenos do you play against?

What are the top-tier armies in today's meta?

Partially it depends on your local meta, but the best ones I've seen are the following
- Necrons (wraith and flyer spam)
- Daemons
- Grey Knights
- IG
- DE beast pack cheese

Of those, the hellhound will do fine against 3.
Two of them will basically counter the last one completely -- which would otherwise roll over an IG army.

As a final note -- Vendettas are indeed awesome. When the new flyer book comes out later this month, I expect the price of them to increase by about 50 points.

I would be shocked by this. More likely they simply reformat all those entries to have flier data faxes. I think costs should be adjusted, but by the same measure the night scythe is also under cost and the brand new DA flier is way over cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ailaros- LR are actually a bit wider then 5" at the sponsons and are about 7.25" long meaning if you place the blast in the center even if it drifts diagonally by your math it should be fine. I think you are artificially underestimating how easily LR are to hit with blasts, but I will agree that it is silly to bring a 120 pt (without hull MM) platform to get one S8 hit that needs to be within 12" in order to have a shot at wrecking av 14. 105pt storm trooper unit with dual meltas is a better option.

I think it was just idiocy to cost a 12/12/10 fast tank equal to a 12/12/10 flier or skimmer at the time, both with scout, while one can transport 12 models has options for more dakka and out guns the HH in the first place anyways. If you are avoiding IG fliers then I don't see it as a bad tank however, it's speed and scout makes it awesome for killing backfield grot squad objective holders and it is more durable verse certain threats then storm troopers. I would maybe consider taking one of each, flamer stormies and a HH for back field disruption, like I said, anything that can wipe stormies won't wipe the HH and vice versa typically.

 Ailaros wrote:

More Dakka wrote:The price isn't that high compared to an equivalent Leman Russ

But it rather is. Only 30 more points gets you a much better range, way better armor, and the ability to put a lot of bargain hull weapons on it.

Well, if your 3 HS slots are 2x Manticores and 2-3 LRBTs, Vanquishers, or any of the other more popular LR variants and you have a pair of Vendettas and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

But here's the thing I like about the HH, it's got some really mean ways to fire that flame template, as long as the narrow end is closer than the wide end you can get maximum efficiency out of the shot, compared to a large blast with BS3 scatter, which even if it hits might not be ideally places (enemy in a line behind a strung out Aegis, or just up on a 2nd tier of a ruin).

I find it's a good unit in the army book, not an autotake by any stretch, but if you have a place for it then it becomes worth while. I found in 5th that they were very readily ignored by most opponents in favor of juicier targets in my armor-centric list. But with the degraded resilience of AV12 compared to 14 that could be a whole different story.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

 Ailaros wrote:
But the only advantage you're talking about with speed is to have longer range to short-ranged guns. Why don't you just take longer ranged guns?

Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank. In the majority of missions, this can get it VERY close to its targets as soon as it arrives, and as many guard players are already taking an astropath, he lets you reroll your outflank rolls, making it even more likely you will get the hellhound to come in where you need it. I played a game last night with the diagonal deployment (I don't recall the name) and my hellhound came right in my opponents deployment zone because he was in the corner. It lasted one turn but it absolutely wrecked his firebase. They're not uber competitive, but don't discount them!

More Dakka wrote:... and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if its just an awkward points filler unit. Something that better list building skills could help you avoid having to take.

lizardwolf19 wrote:Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

Except it can't, not having scouts.

If it did, then I'd agree that this would be a genuine reason to take them.

 Ailaros wrote:

More Dakka wrote:... and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if its just an awkward points filler unit. Something that better list building skills could help you avoid having to take.

lizardwolf19 wrote:Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

Except it can't, not having scouts.

If it did, then I'd agree that this would be a genuine reason to take them.

Wow my apologies, I wasn't aware that had changed. Could have sworn it used to be able to outflank or something like that. Oh well, still fun to burn things!

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Unfortunetly you probably will not see a points change for any existing flyer in that book. Reason is that the Death from the Skies will be a supplement to the 40k game. Imagine if you walk into a store not having purchased this book and a player presents you with their shiny new Eldar Flyer. Not too big of a problem, he explains its rules and you both get down to gaming. Now imagine that same player looking at your army and informing you that your army is now over points because in his book the Flyer for your army has changed points. Full Stop. You not likely to appreciate that.

GW does not adjust points for units that have gotten better/worse/overcosted/undercosted..etc Imagine all the units that would need their points cost adjusted because of 6thed rule changes. That stuff is best handled in new Codexes rather than in supplemental books.

Vendetta is undercosted but not by as much as people think. A better price would probably be around 150-160 points max. That wll be handled in the next IG Codex, 2014-15.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

If GW is going to club the Vendetta like a baby seal with the nerfbat I would expect it's AV value to drop to 11. It's not a heavy flyer.

lizardwolf19 wrote:

Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

How? Did they add Scout to it somewhere? It's not on the codex entry.

I roll a couple of HH with a couple Demolishers behind them. Provides cover.

An MEQ army will ignore the HHs, and aim for my Demolishers, allowing the HHs to block lanes and set stuff on fire for a while.

A non-MEQ army will try to destroy the HH as fast as possible, getting hit by Demolishers in the process.

I play ABG, but I do pretty much the same thing with the normal IG 'dex.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

If GW is going to club the Vendetta like a baby seal with the nerfbat I would expect it's AV value to drop to 11. It's not a heavy flyer.

PG. 56 IG Codex: "If Valkyries are attached to ground forces of any extended duration of time, the armor plating of the aircraft are commonly reinforced....

The Vend/Valk all come with Extra Armor standard.....

What about the silver lining being 'take it because it looks cool' ? Sometimes being cool is better then being chessy.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
What about the silver lining being 'take it because it looks cool' ? Sometimes being cool is better then being chessy.

Not to mention that a tank that is essentially a giant gas can is extremely manly.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
What about the silver lining being 'take it because it looks cool' ? Sometimes being cool is better then being chessy.

Because this is the tactics forum, not the pretty looking model forum. Oh and good =/= "chessy"

I've honestly never liked the Hellhound, even before the Vendetta came into existence. It's just in such an awkward spot, where it excels at one thing that other units are just better at. Its niche is filled unfortunately, and it doesn't have the durability to warrant its inclusion in a list.

 Hedkrakka wrote:

lizardwolf19 wrote:

Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

How? Did they add Scout to it somewhere? It's not on the codex entry.

Ailaros corrected me a few posts back, you're both correct, they cannot outflank. Not sure why I thought they could...

 Ailaros wrote:

More Dakka wrote:... and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if its just an awkward points filler unit. Something that better list building skills could help you avoid having to take.

lol, I hope that wasn't a snipe.

When I write up armor heavy lists I do tend to have around 130 extra points (and have the 2nd ed model), but aside from that it does serve a purpose.

Like I said, if you're looking for the ultimate tournament beatstick look elsewhere, if you're looking for something different and decent at what it does it's a good option.

From my own experience it seems to be one of those models that needs to be taken in multiples. That sounds dumb coming from a codex that relies on taking multiples of unit x, but the hellhound stands out above the rest in requiring more than one on the table to do what you want them to do.
I think every time I have taken just one hellhound it was only to shoot off it's template once before being blown up by something or other compared to a single russ or vendetta which can take a good deal of fire before taking damage.

That said, you could technically do an outflank, albeit a pseudo one (no I'm not talking Creed here). Outfit them with some smoke and run them up the side turn 1. Pop the smoke and then on turn 2 run them up another 12 and you've kind of got the effect of having outflanked someone. Or at least you've forced your opponent to move towards or away in your favor.

But it does free up your heavy slots if you don't want to have to take the eradicator or colossus. Maybe you'd rather take the manticore, vanquisher, or w/e, and you are left without your anti-cover aoe unit. That is where the hellhound comes in I suppose. It competes with a slot for the vendetta for sure, but you've got three slots so reserving one slot for 2-3 hellhounds won't kill your vendettas' ability to do well.

As for the math, that's a little hard when taking the hellhound into account. Whenever I have taken it, it was entirely dependent on the situation and deployment. It is one of those units that will benefit from deploying second for sure and being backed up by a lot more armor. I could see a list of hellhounds and russes being very effective.

 A GumyBear wrote:
HH's are just those SnG's type of units that are fun for a fire ouchy burn burn type of army

just like every other codex they have a few useless things in their dex that people try to make use of but in the end other things will just out preform it

ex. SM Whirlwind, find a use for that in a competitive environment and you are the most tactical genius of a lifetime

I use whirlwinds in most of my all comers lists. They are cheap, cause pinning, and can ignore cover. I usually can't afford a 2nd auto/las because I have to bring the stupid stormraven for anti-flier duty, so I bring this as the third heavy. ANd BA whirlwinds can move 12" and still fire.

Oh one more thing, some of us can't afford or seem to trade enough, to get even one Valk, let alone a Vendetta, so if we want to take Fast Attack stuff it's Hounds, Sentinels, or Rough Riders. I.E. the stuff the rich boys don't want. (slight joke.) Just have to get by. Plus I play on some small boards (often 4'x4' or 6'x4' so...I'm close to begin with.)

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Oh one more thing, some of us can't afford or seem to trade enough, to get even one Valk, let alone a Vendetta, so if we want to take Fast Attack stuff it's Hounds, Sentinels, or Rough Riders. I.E. the stuff the rich boys don't want. (slight joke.) Just have to get by. Plus I play on some small boards (often 4'x4' or 6'x4' so...I'm close to begin with.)

Then you lack creativity or don't bother to put in effort. I am far from well off, but I have 3 fliers. All of them I got from eBay in vastly differing conditions. Two required a large amount of fixing and green stuff, but for a fraction of the price it was worth it.

If you want to discuss the cost of units, do so in the general forum. This is a tactics thread and unfortunately for you monetary cost is rather irrelevant to whether a unit is good or not. If you want to take 3 gakky units instead of one good one, then that's your prerogative. However, it's not really relavent to this thread.

Martel732 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
HH's are just those SnG's type of units that are fun for a fire ouchy burn burn type of army

just like every other codex they have a few useless things in their dex that people try to make use of but in the end other things will just out preform it

ex. SM Whirlwind, find a use for that in a competitive environment and you are the most tactical genius of a lifetime

I use whirlwinds in most of my all comers lists. They are cheap, cause pinning, and can ignore cover. I usually can't afford a 2nd auto/las because I have to bring the stupid stormraven for anti-flier duty, so I bring this as the third heavy. ANd BA whirlwinds can move 12" and still fire.

The recosting in the DA codex means the WW has a place... As a marine, I have found that the biggest struggles are against hoard armies. Also when a template just has to touch a vehicle, S5 can actually affect multiple AV10 vehicles... not healthy for IG parking lots and the like. The castellan round is good for those pesky rangers pathfinders, scouts sitting in reinforced terrain. At 85 they were very questionable, at 65 they may have a place.

^ Why don't you tell him what you really think.

Anyways that aside. I find Hellhounds and there variants to make great flank protectors there AV12 side armour can be the difference between a Chimera full of Troops getting splatted or them living to fight another day. Yes the Vendetta is better point for point but it can be garenteed that it won't be laying down fire till atleast turn 2 or later where as the Hellhound and variants can. All in all I think there not too bad you just need to do something with them that most people don't understand and thats apply tactics.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Oh one more thing, some of us can't afford or seem to trade enough, to get even one Valk, let alone a Vendetta, so if we want to take Fast Attack stuff it's Hounds, Sentinels, or Rough Riders. I.E. the stuff the rich boys don't want. (slight joke.) Just have to get by. Plus I play on some small boards (often 4'x4' or 6'x4' so...I'm close to begin with.)

Then you lack creativity or don't bother to put in effort. I am far from well off, but I have 3 fliers. All of them I got from eBay in vastly differing conditions. Two required a large amount of fixing and green stuff, but for a fraction of the price it was worth it.

If you want to discuss the cost of units, do so in the general forum. This is a tactics thread and unfortunately for you monetary cost is rather irrelevant to whether a unit is good or not. If you want to take 3 gakky units instead of one good one, then that's your prerogative. However, it's not really relavent to this thread.

Or you can chose not to be a judgmental jerk....

Sinji wrote:
^ Why don't you tell him what you really think.

Anyways that aside. I find Hellhounds and there variants to make great flank protectors there AV12 side armour can be the difference between a Chimera full of Troops getting splatted or them living to fight another day. Yes the Vendetta is better point for point but it can be garenteed that it won't be laying down fire till atleast turn 2 or later where as the Hellhound and variants can. All in all I think there not too bad you just need to do something with them that most people don't understand and thats apply tactics.

You know what's better? Av:13 in the form of LRs. A demolisher is one of the best flank protectors around, and can be used for an armoured push if your opponent has castled up in a corner. It just seems that people are trying so hard to did a use for the hellhound, which pretty much means it's not that great.

Agreed but if your heavys are full then the Hellhound is a good option B.

Sinji wrote:
Agreed but if your heavys are full then the Hellhound is a good option B.

I guess. Although it's got a little short range to just sit back and wait. Unlike the demolisher which can afford to wait thanks to its av14. Then again, a bastion or adl would mitigate that somewhat.

Glocknall wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Unfortunetly you probably will not see a points change for any existing flyer in that book. Reason is that the Death from the Skies will be a supplement to the 40k game. Imagine if you walk into a store not having purchased this book and a player presents you with their shiny new Eldar Flyer. Not too big of a problem, he explains its rules and you both get down to gaming. Now imagine that same player looking at your army and informing you that your army is now over points because in his book the Flyer for your army has changed points. Full Stop. You not likely to appreciate that.

GW does not adjust points for units that have gotten better/worse/overcosted/undercosted..etc Imagine all the units that would need their points cost adjusted because of 6thed rule changes. That stuff is best handled in new Codexes rather than in supplemental books.

Vendetta is undercosted but not by as much as people think. A better price would probably be around 150-160 points max. That wll be handled in the next IG Codex, 2014-15.

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

DAaddict wrote:

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

Oh you mean aside from the fact the storm raven is an assault transport that can carry a dreadnought. Oh it also flat out ignores melta weapons. Has PotMS, AV12 on the rear as well as weapon options that are worth it.

The vendetta is under-costed. I'm not disputing that, but it's not as drastically under-costed as your knee jerk reaction says.

 Griddlelol wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

Oh you mean aside from the fact the storm raven is an assault transport that can carry a dreadnought. Oh it also flat out ignores melta weapons. Has PotMS, AV12 on the rear as well as weapon options that are worth it.

The vendetta is under-costed. I'm not disputing that, but it's not as drastically under-costed as your knee jerk reaction says.

Judging from the costs of Nephilim and Helldrakes - only AV 11 in one case and limited AT fire in both cases... 3 x S9 AP2 Twin-linked shots on an AV 12 armor with a troop transport capability is highly undercosted at less than 200. Now if the AV is reduced perhaps but the quick fix is to take out the value of taking 6 or even 9 vendettas. Or perhaps now that they are flyers reducing the slot to 1 Vendetta instead of 1 to 3.

I can't believe no one has brought this up yet, but look at this: Competative Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators, to great effect from what I understand. I have a gamer in our group that owns three, and most of the time runs two. The torrent Str 6 AP 4 weapon is great for smoking a lot of armies backfield objective holders, good for putting wounds on 2+ or 3+ armored models and makes sure no one is using that Defense Line 2+ cover bull-crap.
The Heldrake is amazing. AP3 means a lot but don't discount the lowly Hellhound because its AP4. They have their different roles. The Heldrake means a heck of a lot more to Chaos Space Marines then the Hellhound does the Imperial guard.
If you need torrent ST6 AP4 weapons, I don't think allying in Grey Knights to fill out a weakness is a bad idea. Coteaz, strike squad and a dreadknight is a good little allied force that would compliment Guard well, IMO.

DAaddict wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

Oh you mean aside from the fact the storm raven is an assault transport that can carry a dreadnought. Oh it also flat out ignores melta weapons. Has PotMS, AV12 on the rear as well as weapon options that are worth it.

The vendetta is under-costed. I'm not disputing that, but it's not as drastically under-costed as your knee jerk reaction says.

Judging from the costs of Nephilim and Helldrakes - only AV 11 in one case and limited AT fire in both cases... 3 x S9 AP2 Twin-linked shots on an AV 12 armor with a troop transport capability is highly undercosted at less than 200. Now if the AV is reduced perhaps but the quick fix is to take out the value of taking 6 or even 9 vendettas. Or perhaps now that they are flyers reducing the slot to 1 Vendetta instead of 1 to 3.

Remember that the Vendetta is BS3. Twin linked is very good but it will fail you more than you think. The Stormraven is by far a better flyer with much more utility. You have more weapon loadouts, missles, hurricane bolters...etc. PotMS is money because you can ignore the restrictions on skyfire and fire a TL Multi-melta at a ground target and light up a flyer with TL assault cannons and missles. Hurricane Bolters gives you even more utility. You can also take a TL Lascannon for anti flyer and w/ a BS 4 Multi-melta makes it a much better anti-flyer.

The DA flyers are just awful at almost any points level. A total fail by GW on every level.

One tactic that I like is outflanking the Hellhounds with Creed AND including pie plates in the army. Pie plates could be Eradicators, Griffons, Manticores, LRBT's.

On deployment, if the opponent fears the outflankers they will cluster towards the middle of their depolyment zone so as not to get flamed to death when the HH's arrive. This makes for a target rich center of the table for your pie plates.

If they dont fear the outflankers - they will once they arrive , theyre fast vehicles and have good reach with their torrent weapon and hull mounted MM.

DAaddict wrote:

Glocknall wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Unfortunetly you probably will not see a points change for any existing flyer in that book. Reason is that the Death from the Skies will be a supplement to the 40k game. Imagine if you walk into a store not having purchased this book and a player presents you with their shiny new Eldar Flyer. Not too big of a problem, he explains its rules and you both get down to gaming. Now imagine that same player looking at your army and informing you that your army is now over points because in his book the Flyer for your army has changed points. Full Stop. You not likely to appreciate that.

GW does not adjust points for units that have gotten better/worse/overcosted/undercosted..etc Imagine all the units that would need their points cost adjusted because of 6thed rule changes. That stuff is best handled in new Codexes rather than in supplemental books.

Vendetta is undercosted but not by as much as people think. A better price would probably be around 150-160 points max. That wll be handled in the next IG Codex, 2014-15.

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

I like how you left rear armor 12, PoTMS, the fact the raven can carry a dread also and the assault ramp out of your equation. I do think vendettas are a little underpriced but not to the degree you are suggesting.

 Brymm wrote:
I can't believe no one has brought this up yet, but look at this: Competative Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators, to great effect from what I understand. I have a gamer in our group that owns three, and most of the time runs two. The torrent Str 6 AP 4 weapon is great for smoking a lot of armies backfield objective holders, good for putting wounds on 2+ or 3+ armored models and makes sure no one is using that Defense Line 2+ cover bull-crap.
The Heldrake is amazing. AP3 means a lot but don't discount the lowly Hellhound because its AP4. They have their different roles. The Heldrake means a heck of a lot more to Chaos Space Marines then the Hellhound does the Imperial guard.
If you need torrent ST6 AP4 weapons, I don't think allying in Grey Knights to fill out a weakness is a bad idea. Coteaz, strike squad and a dreadknight is a good little allied force that would compliment Guard well, IMO.

The difference being that Dreadknights don't crumple like a wet noodle if something attacks it in CC.

I don't know what the true cost of the Vendetta should be exactly, but those triple twin linked lascannons are quite nice. I don't hold many of the Stormraven's advantages in very high regard, but it should have to pay for them, but it shouldn't be too much more expensive than the vendetta because it's weapon load out is not as good. And the vendetta has cargo capacity as well.

I think the 150-170 range for the vendetta is appropriate. But either way we won't see a points increase until the next guard codex comes out. I seriously doubt they would adjust the points with the new compendium. That being said, if the points cost did go up I would feel less bad about pissing people off when I want to bring three of them.


Edit -

Also the SR has the ceramite armor rule. Since we are trying to cost compare, a SR could concivably down 2 flyers a turn. Where as the triple twin linked lascannons have a higher chance of destroying one thing, they can only destroying one thing a turn. I think the vendetta is probably the best flyer in the game currently , but that should not diminish the versatility and utility of the SR.

Brymm wrote:Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators... The Heldrake is amazing.

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

And the helldrake is IMMUNE to close combat, and it can also easily show up anywhere on the board to get exactly the right target, and is generally only hit on 6's.

Just because other, good, units have torrent weapons doesn't mean that a unit with a torrent weapon is necessarily good.

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

If PoTMS let you fire in sequential order, I would price it as being valuable. Usually, I'm so desperate to stop *a* heldrake, I just shoot everything at said heldrake and ignore PoTMS. If i got to open up with PoTMS and then see the result, and then choose a different target, it would be worthwhile. If the Stormravn is 200 base, I can't see lower than 175 for the Vendetta. It does everything meaningful a Stormraven does, and potentially from twice as far away. Again, I'm not sure how much of a boon ceramite armor is on a flyer. If you put it on a LR, it would rock.

Ailaros- Except you need to pay for the teleporter and it's weapons, they don't just come with shunt or the heavy incinerator, meaning if you also get a NGS for assault then it costs more then two hellhounds.

Helldrakes have hover mode meaning they are not in fact immune to CC. The helldrake is still insanely better though and occupies the same slot but keep in mind it is from a 6th ed codex and is 4 years newer.

 Ailaros wrote:

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

I was thinking the exact same thing. If a hellhound could shunt, it might be freaking awesome. Also if it had a 2+ save and could beat face...

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

Yeah...sorry. It's hard to not get derailed and talk about the elephant in the room. I'll shut up about it now.

You can kind-of shunt the HH's using Creed's ability to outflank a unit.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
You can kind-of shunt the HH's using Creed's ability to outflank a unit.

I guess, if by shunting you mean paying 90pts for it to come in by reserve, on the wrong table edge 1/3rd of the time, and not be able to fire on turn 1.

Martel732 wrote:
If PoTMS let you fire in sequential order, I would price it as being valuable. Usually, I'm so desperate to stop *a* heldrake, I just shoot everything at said heldrake and ignore PoTMS. If i got to open up with PoTMS and then see the result, and then choose a different target, it would be worthwhile. If the Stormravn is 200 base, I can't see lower than 175 for the Vendetta. It does everything meaningful a Stormraven does, and potentially from twice as far away. Again, I'm not sure how much of a boon ceramite armor is on a flyer. If you put it on a LR, it would rock.

I can't believe you are seriously questioning ceremite armor, I still see the majority of fliers downed by melta weapons be those of obliterators or masses of infantry. You keep ignoring the fact that the SR for BA comes with 4 S8 AP1 missiles and has an assault cannon and MM, both of which are TL and destroy armor efficiently. Vendettas are good but no where near SR good. Keep in mind rear AV12 on a SR means it can switch into hover mode more often without worry from assault most times and again it has ceremite plating!

Yep - thats what I mean. The effect it has when there are other templates from your heavy section is a good example of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

 Ailaros wrote:


And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

To be fair this thread asked a silly question in the first place. I mean the vendetta IS relevant to this topic as it costs the exact same amount, occupies the same slot and also can form squadrons. So yeah it may be irritating but it's really the chief reason against taking HH's.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If PoTMS let you fire in sequential order, I would price it as being valuable. Usually, I'm so desperate to stop *a* heldrake, I just shoot everything at said heldrake and ignore PoTMS. If i got to open up with PoTMS and then see the result, and then choose a different target, it would be worthwhile. If the Stormravn is 200 base, I can't see lower than 175 for the Vendetta. It does everything meaningful a Stormraven does, and potentially from twice as far away. Again, I'm not sure how much of a boon ceramite armor is on a flyer. If you put it on a LR, it would rock.

I can't believe you are seriously questioning ceremite armor, I still see the majority of fliers downed by melta weapons be those of obliterators or masses of infantry. You keep ignoring the fact that the SR for BA comes with 4 S8 AP1 missiles and has an assault cannon and MM, both of which are TL and destroy armor efficiently. Vendettas are good but no where near SR good. Keep in mind rear AV12 on a SR means it can switch into hover mode more often without worry from assault most times and again it has ceremite plating!

It's AV 12 dude. You need have to use melta to frag it, so why is the ceramite plating good again? I see the majority of fliers downed by guess what? Vendettas. And their lascannons don't give a damn about cermite plating, or what the rear armor is. If you think these trivial advantages justify a the cost of the stormraven, great. But I think we again have the case where marines are paying points for gizmos that don't actually make much of a difference when the fight starts.

 Ailaros wrote:

Brymm wrote:Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators... The Heldrake is amazing.

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

And the helldrake is IMMUNE to close combat, and it can also easily show up anywhere on the board to get exactly the right target, and is generally only hit on 6's.

Just because other, good, units have torrent weapons doesn't mean that a unit with a torrent weapon is necessarily good.

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

I apologize for spending time talking about Vendettas. I may be wrong but doesn't the hellhound compete with valkrie/vendettas for the same FOC? Is the cost of a Valkrie/Vendetta about the same as a hellhound? The broken unit in the FOC enters into the discussion because while a hellhound may be situationally OK a vendetta is considered universally good to the point it is considered a main reason for taking IG as allies or basing an IG army around them.
For a comparison, an eldar can take 3 x war walkers with scatter lasers for 180 or a Falcon with an EML for around 150... both comparable costs but talk to any Eldar player and he is going to chose the War Walkers....

Flame tanks in general in 6th are now on a suicide mission. While this might be acceptable for a BA razor with TL HF that was discounted anyway, it seems unacceptable for a tank with the pricetag of a hellhound. Even moving crazy BA speed, they WS 1 to get hit with krak grenades or whatever in assault.

Unfortunately, the topic derailed because its basically impossible to talk about IG without the vendetta coming up somehow due to how crazy good it is.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

No they won't bump up the cost 60 Points given with how Cheap frakking Raven wing is and Death wing , 30 Points i'd under stand , but guess what if it does go up ? i switch to Valkyries and get basically the exact same thing for still 130 , that argument doesn't makes sense , yes i agree that they where Underpriced for what you get but a 60 Point increase does not justify anything

But back to the Original OP , Yes what makes Hellhounds seem gakky is that they are competeing for a slot Against Vendettas , much of this is metta Dependent since a Hellhound and Vendetta are exactly the same cost , i would just suggest that take Valkyries with MRP's rather then Hellhounds due to getting all of those normal advantages associated with flyers . I personally won't touch Hellhounds and only Marginally Touch Devil dogs due to their Melta Cannon and using Creed to outflnak a Squadren of them . -- So Honest , Stick with a Vendetta because i doubt the Price will go up that Much ( even if it does ill still bring 3 ) if you need to destroy hordes , Take a( or several ) Valkyries with Multiple Rocket Pods and you only have to worry about skyfire yet again ,

190 is a much more intellectually honest price for the thing, assuming a true price of 170-175. 130 was borderline in 5th. It's funny that I found the Stormraven to have been unfieldable in 5th. Against good lists, it died in one turn nearly every time. Unacceptable for 200 pts. Flier rules have made the Stormraven worth using, but made the previously marginal vendetta CRAZY.

Martel732 wrote:
190 is a much more intellectually honest price for the thing, assuming a true price of 170-175. 130 was borderline in 5th. It's funny that I found the Stormraven to have been unfieldable in 5th. Against good lists, it died in one turn nearly every time. Unacceptable for 200 pts. Flier rules have made the Stormraven worth using, but made the previously marginal vendetta CRAZY.

The Storm Raven has 12 Armor all around can carry a 12 Man Marine Team along with a Dreadnought and is practically immune to traditional melta shots not only that but can pack twin melta guns and hurricane bolters - That makes sense as it can equally kill Armor and Infantry . the Vendetta is Strictly Anti-tank ( although the Valkyrie with MRP is the same cost ) I would agree with 170 ish around their but 190 is Absurd

If the Vendetta could carry something else beside guardsmen then I could see all the anti-vendetta hysteria as justified. Three BS3 TL lascannon shots that might show up turn 2 with rear armor 10 isnt that big a deal IMHO. I agree, its a good source for anti-air support.

If my meta starts to get swamped with Storm Ravens and Hell Drakes then Ill get concerned about flyers and begin thinking Vendettas are a must-include. Vendettas are not on my public-enemy-number-one list. The other 2 are because they pose a threat to my OBJ scoring units; one delivers hard hitting units, the other a hard hitting template. The vendetta hits with 2 or 3 lascannon shots. I see the vendetta as top of its class for AA support, the other two hit much harder because all lists will have some troop scoring ability, not all list will have air support.

Melta weapons are STR 8, which last time I looked, can penetrate AV 12 just fine. If ceramite armor negated the AP 1 as well, I'd be more impressed.

Look I agree that in theory that carrying all those marines and dread should be an asset, but the way the rules and games work out, the Stormraven's carrying capacity is an inadvisable risk due to reserve rolls and crashing flier rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
If the Vendetta could carry something else beside guardsmen then I could see all the anti-vendetta hysteria as justified. Three BS3 TL lascannon shots that might show up turn 2 with rear armor 10 isnt that big a deal IMHO. I agree, its a good source for anti-air support.

If my meta starts to get swamped with Storm Ravens and Hell Drakes then Ill get concerned about flyers and begin thinking Vendettas are a must-include. Vendettas are not on my public-enemy-number-one list. The other 2 are because they pose a threat to my OBJ scoring units; one delivers hard hitting units, the other a hard hitting template. The vendetta hits with 2 or 3 lascannon shots. I see the vendetta as top of its class for AA support, the other two hit much harder because all lists will have some troop scoring ability, not all list will have air support.

If you brought vendettas, you could really punish they player bringing hard hitting units in a Stormraven. I don't know about GK, but this is an ill-advised tactic for BA.

Well, my question isn't "what's the best FA choice?" My question is "seriously, why would you take a hellhound?"

Sounds like under the current situation, you wouldn't. This is an eternal problem with GW games, and why points for units should be updated in real time on the internet, not printed in physical books.

Because under the current situation, I would always use a vendetta over a stormraven, much less a hell hound. The hell hound just got kinda hosed, along with my Baals with flamestorm cannons. Fortunately, I magnetized those things. I know the hell hound does not have the same luxury.

I would bring 3 hel hounds as a single unit, outflanking with Creed's ability. Supported with 2 Vendettas each on their own slot with some combination of Eradicator, Manticore and Griffon, maxing out my heavy slots.

Pretty much only then.

 kaiservonhugal wrote:
I would bring 3 hel hounds as a single unit, outflanking with Creed's ability. Supported with 2 Vendettas each on their own slot with some combination of Eradicator, Manticore and Griffon, maxing out my heavy slots.

Pretty much only then.

But why.

Outflanking 3 Hellhounds sounds like a horrible waste of so many points and a outflank-slot.

Almost every opponent Ive palyed against uses an Aegis Defense Line. Cover saves really hurt a shooty-lists.

Those are the 2 main reasons.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, my question isn't "what's the best FA choice?" My question is "seriously, why would you take a hellhound?"

Other than, "I like the model" or fluf reasons, I can't see any reason to field one. I would rather have the banewolf or the devil dog than the hellhound. Other units I would have more fun with in the fast attack slot that are suboptimal: armored or scout sentinels and roughriders.


You were complaining about the vendetta, which gets mentioned in 90% of the tactical threads on dakka, I guess be thankful that Marbo hasn't popped up in his thread yet, OH NO! He just did!

Are the other variants in question here? I'd probably never use the Banewolf variant, but the Devil Dog certainly didn't get any worse with the change to blasts against vehicles. A little more reliable anti-tank now anyways than it was before. Costs 135pts with the hull multi-melta. Certainly not terrible anyways.

 Blacksails wrote:
Are the other variants in question here? I'd probably never use the Banewolf variant, but the Devil Dog certainly didn't get any worse with the change to blasts against vehicles. A little more reliable anti-tank now anyways than it was before. Costs 135pts with the hull multi-melta. Certainly not terrible anyways.

But its just essentially two Multi-meltas.

You still need to be in 12" to double your d6 for penetration.

Anyone half-decent will just put troops in front as a buffer.

Only worth it if you're facing Land Raiders.

Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers , People need to Learn to Adapt to the waves of change , The only listi have seen effectively beat Necron Flyer spam is a similarly built Vendetta one because it is going to automatically glance and will 99% of the time pen not to mention its AP2 so your talking about swatting these things down with no effort .

I think more people than space marine players are complaining about the vendetta. Ask a nid player how long their skyrants last with those things flying around. Or a CSM player about their heldrakes.

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers

Well, you're wrong. If it's an addition/revision to the rules, then just like an errata it changes the rules.

If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

But, additionally, what few seem to realize, is that the original poster saying "Vendetta now priced at 190" was posting conjecture in a "hopefully" state of mind.

There have been no rumors or even suggestions that existing flyer prices will change.

Relax.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers

Well, you're wrong. If it's an addition/revision to the rules, then just like an errata it changes the rules.

If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

But, additionally, what few seem to realize, is that the original poster saying "Vendetta now priced at 190" was posting conjecture in a "hopefully" state of mind.

There have been no rumors or even suggestions that existing flyer prices will change.

Relax.

Games Workshop won't go threw the time and money to Change EVERY units cost as soon as a new addition comes out , its an Addition to the game like Planet Strike or Cities of Death - The Cost is only changed in a New Codex , if this wasn't so along time ago Tau would have had an Errata or something changing hte cost of units same with Black templar and Eldar , it won't happen

It's not really that much time or cost. They just do things the way they do.

Made a Seperate thread for Vendetta Cost thing

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/505209.page#5248087


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I think more people than space marine players are complaining about the vendetta. Ask a nid player how long their skyrants last with those things flying around. Or a CSM player about their heldrakes.

Nids yeah got gimped in not being able to use fortifacaitions , People don't want to know how to adapt and overcome , Their Stuck and their ways and arn't willing to learn on how to beat a combo

 Kasrkin229 wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
Honestly i think alot of this is how the Space Marines are crying on how their flyers are now obselete due to a pre-existing Guard choice , Sorry guys but at my FLGS a codex is a codex and unless an Erratta is put out then the price stays at 130 , A Fancy book coming out that isn't technically required for play isn't going to change pricying on existing codex flyers

Well, you're wrong. If it's an addition/revision to the rules, then just like an errata it changes the rules.

If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

But, additionally, what few seem to realize, is that the original poster saying "Vendetta now priced at 190" was posting conjecture in a "hopefully" state of mind.

There have been no rumors or even suggestions that existing flyer prices will change.

Relax.

Games Workshop won't go threw the time and money to Change EVERY units cost as soon as a new addition comes out , its an Addition to the game like Planet Strike or Cities of Death - The Cost is only changed in a New Codex , if this wasn't so along time ago Tau would have had an Errata or something changing hte cost of units same with Black templar and Eldar , it won't happen

Did you read anything I said?

The Book is additional rules. It's like a WD Update. It's part of the rules.

And none of the unit prices are changing. Jesus.

Stormraven is being made available for all SM codices, Stormtalon and the Ork Flyer rules are being printed, and a few new flyers are getting released.

Calm yourself. No one is changing your precious Vendetta's price.

But if they did in a valid rule update, and you chose not to accept it, that would be cheating.


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 Kasrkin229 wrote:

Nids yeah got gimped in not being able to use fortifacaitions

Nids can take "Fortifications"

Hive Guard in a Bastion is awesome.

I understood it that Nids couldn't fire emplacements ? that was what i was getting at is with the Skyfire emplacements -- and Flyrants arn't really that good , i hit you once and if you fail your grounding test it potentinally can kill you --- And not the Vendetta is personally Precious to me but i do enjoying making Necron Bakarys piss themselfs when i field 6 of em independently shooting down targets at 2k points --rules and Codex cost updates are two different things

 Kasrkin229 wrote:
I understood it that Nids couldn't fire emplacements ? that was what i was getting at is with the Skyfire emplacements -- and Flyrants arn't really that good , i hit you once and if you fail your grounding test it potentinally can kill you --- And not the Vendetta is personally Precious to me but i do enjoying making Necron Bakarys piss themselfs when i field 6 of em independently shooting down targets at 2k points --rules and Codex cost updates are two different things

Nids don't really need anti-flyer. Their ground-game is sick. A nid player won Seattle TSHFT with just two Flyrants.

Well i guess i should correct that , In my Experiance i have never lost a trooper to a Flyrant , i always shoot holes in them when i come in from Reserve

Isn't it limited edition?

CaptainGrey wrote:If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

You've got it backwards. In any case, this is a forum to discuss the usefullness of hellhounds. PLEASE don't turn this into another self-righteous pro-forgeworld diatribe.

CaptainGrey wrote:Nids don't really need anti-flyer. Their ground-game is sick. A nid player won Seattle TSHFT with just two Flyrants.

What on earth does this have to do with hellhounds?

kaiservonhugal wrote:Almost every opponent Ive palyed against uses an Aegis Defense Line. Cover saves really hurt a shooty-lists.

Sure, but why HELLHOUNDS? There are other things in the guard codex that ignore cover saves. Things that do it better, or with a better Ap, or are cheaper, or score, etc.

 Ailaros wrote:

Brymm wrote:Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators... The Heldrake is amazing.

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

And the helldrake is IMMUNE to close combat, and it can also easily show up anywhere on the board to get exactly the right target, and is generally only hit on 6's.

Just because other, good, units have torrent weapons doesn't mean that a unit with a torrent weapon is necessarily good.

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

To your first point: Yes, the Dreadknight does all of those things, but at a premium price. Plus, does the IG dex get any 2+/5+ or T6? Do they beat face in combat? Of course not. The Guard codex is about disposable bodies, heavy firepower and the might of the Emperor. I think a torrent weapon on a fast vehicle in this Codex is good. About 100 pts good. I hate the price at 130.

Second, Heldrake costs 40 more points, making it significantly better. If you can't ally them in, then I would take a Hellhound, again, at 100 points instead of 130.

There is a reason to take high-strength torrent fire weapons: The Ageis Defense Line. You need to be able to clear out jerks from behind there. If you run into Tau/Eldar, Silver Tide or some Nids list, this can be a game breaker too. I like it.

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:If you choose to ignore this, then you are choosing to ignore the rules. Which is fine, but you should be aware of such a situation.

You've got it backwards. In any case, this is a forum to discuss the usefullness of hellhounds. PLEASE don't turn this into another self-righteous pro-forgeworld diatribe.

Perhaps if you read the entire thread instead of simply jabbing at my posts out of context, you'd recognize that this has literally nothing to do with ForgeWorld.

The discussion in question is regarding the new GAMES WORKSHOP flyer compendium. And I mean, since it's GW and not some random, totally unconnected branch-company like FW, even you can concede that they are legal rules for the game.

(Not to mention your link in question has literally nothing relevant in support of your anti-FW stance. It's a discussion where the only supported anti-FW stance is "I don't like it, so I don't use it." Everything else was invalidated in that thread, thanks to FW's stellar clarifications at the beginning of their books. Oh, and the thread has nothing to do with Hellhounds, either. Pretty off topic, and seemingly intentionally instigating another FW debate. Which we don't need.)

CaptainGrey wrote:Nids don't really need anti-flyer. Their ground-game is sick. A nid player won Seattle TSHFT with just two Flyrants.

What on earth does this have to do with hellhounds?

Nothing. For a reason. The discussion went on a tangent. Perhaps if you read the entire thread...well. I'm starting to sound like a broken record for this bit.


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 Ailaros wrote:

kaiservonhugal wrote:Almost every opponent Ive palyed against uses an Aegis Defense Line. Cover saves really hurt a shooty-lists.

Sure, but why HELLHOUNDS? There are other things in the guard codex that ignore cover saves. Things that do it better, or with a better Ap, or are cheaper, or score, etc.

Because they can get there in one turn. There. I'm on topic.

Brymm wrote:the Dreadknight does all of those things, but at a premium price. Second, Heldrake costs 40 more points

Yes, those things cost more, but you actually get what you pay for. The hellhound seems to have a lower price tag AND a worse value.

Especially when you start comparing it to other things even in its own codex, much less others.

Brymm wrote:There is a reason to take high-strength torrent fire weapons: The Ageis Defense Line.

Right, but there are plenty of things that can handle this situation. Why take hellhounds?

CaptainGrey wrote:Because they can get there in one turn.

With a ~24" threat range, though, how much are you really hitting on turn one? Furthermore, an eradicator also hits stuff turn one, but it comes with much heavier armor, and doesn't have to run like crazy out in front of your other stuff out in the open to do it either.

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:Because they can get there in one turn.

With a ~24" threat range, though, how much are you really hitting on turn one? Furthermore, an eradicator also hits stuff turn one, but it comes with much heavier armor, and doesn't have to run like crazy out in front of your other stuff out in the open to do it either.

Well, if we're going to be accurate, technically it has a 32" threat range (what with the flame template being 8" long), so if you deploy on the edge of your deployment, the Hellhound can hit anything within 8" of their front edge of deployment. Not really that bad.

The Hellhound is actually well-compared against the Eradicator for cover-breakers. The clear benefits for the Eradicator are longer range, larger damage footprint, and higher armor.

Hellhound is speed (being able to all but guarantee being safe from charges excepting Bikes and Jump Infantry), Accuracy (Never missing what you place it's template over), and a 30 point discount.

As much as I like the idea of a hellhound a pair of griffons is almost the same cost (within a pair of melta guns/ac for infantry, or the cost of a LC)

Both hit their target with a 6/4 attack
Griffons are ordinance barrage for pinning checks.
Griffons can barrage snipe
Griffons have a longer range.
Hell hounds ignore cover.
Griffons ignore most cover.
Hell hound can have a MM and isn't open topped.
Griffons have double the HP because there are 2 of them, 2 HB, but are open topped.
Griffons can hide out of LOS, hellhounds have to get in the enemy's face.
A pair of twin linked pie plates should hit more models than a never miss torrent flamer.

 schadenfreude wrote:
As much as I like the idea of a hellhound a pair of griffons is almost the same cost (within a pair of melta guns/ac for infantry, or the cost of a LC)

Both hit their target with a 6/4 attack
Griffons are ordinance barrage for pinning checks.
Griffons can barrage snipe
Griffons have a longer range.
Hell hounds ignore cover.
Griffons ignore most cover.
Hell hound can have a MM and isn't open topped.
Griffons have double the HP because there are 2 of them, 2 HB, but are open topped.
Griffons can hide out of LOS, hellhounds have to get in the enemy's face.
A pair of twin linked pie plates should hit more models than a never miss torrent flamer.

The hellhound can avoid chargers and still be fire-effective, whereas, well, the griffon can't.

Because when used with eradicators or colossi, and Creed, the opponent has no where to hide.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
As much as I like the idea of a hellhound a pair of griffons is almost the same cost (within a pair of melta guns/ac for infantry, or the cost of a LC)

Both hit their target with a 6/4 attack
Griffons are ordinance barrage for pinning checks.
Griffons can barrage snipe
Griffons have a longer range.
Hell hounds ignore cover.
Griffons ignore most cover.
Hell hound can have a MM and isn't open topped.
Griffons have double the HP because there are 2 of them, 2 HB, but are open topped.
Griffons can hide out of LOS, hellhounds have to get in the enemy's face.
A pair of twin linked pie plates should hit more models than a never miss torrent flamer.

The hellhound can avoid chargers and still be fire-effective, whereas, well, the griffon can't.

Meh, 6 of one half dozen of another.
Hellhound moves 12 and shoots with a 24" range + it's hull weapon..
Griffon moves 6" and shoots with a 48" range but cannot shoot it's hull mounted heavy bolter if it moves and shoots it's mortar..
Both are hit on a 3+ in CC.
IMO the griffon's extra range and tendency to try to stay out of trouble makes it less likely to get charged than a hellhound.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

Yes, but dreadknights can shunt, meaning they actually get that gun exactly where you want it, and then it comes with a T6 2+/5++ frame, which is much more durable, and it can beat frigging face in close combat.

I was thinking the exact same thing. If a hellhound could shunt, it might be freaking awesome. Also if it had a 2+ save and could beat face...

And I wish people would stop talking about the vendetta here. Start a new threat about how expensive they should or should not be, and what might happen to them in the future somewhere else.

Yeah...sorry. It's hard to not get derailed and talk about the elephant in the room. I'll shut up about it now.

I'd say the Vendetta is almost entirely why the Hellhound isn't more popular, which makes the discussion of the Vendetta entirely on topic. I love my Hellhound, and I never leave home without it, but I know my IG army is weaker for its presence and a 3rd Vendetta is a much better use of points.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptainGrey wrote:Because they can get there in one turn.

With a ~24" threat range, though, how much are you really hitting on turn one? Furthermore, an eradicator also hits stuff turn one, but it comes with much heavier armor, and doesn't have to run like crazy out in front of your other stuff out in the open to do it either.

Well, if we're going to be accurate, technically it has a 32" threat range (what with the flame template being 8" long), so if you deploy on the edge of your deployment, the Hellhound can hit anything within 8" of their front edge of deployment. Not really that bad.

The Hellhound is actually well-compared against the Eradicator for cover-breakers. The clear benefits for the Eradicator are longer range, larger damage footprint, and higher armor.

Hellhound is speed (being able to all but guarantee being safe from charges excepting Bikes and Jump Infantry), Accuracy (Never missing what you place it's template over), and a 30 point discount.

In addition to all that, I'd say the hellhound's maneuverability gives it a marked advandated over the eradicator. If the enemy deploys outside of the eradicator's range or out of it's los, then having that extra armor and longer range shot won't help it in that scenario. The hellhound on the other hand can skirt around the board relatively easily and still fire off its template. It also has a lower profile and thus a better chance of getting cover saves from area terrain assuming you're hugging it as you move about.

Other than that, it keeps your heavy slots open like I've state before for other things you might rather take than the eradicator. For a list that doesn't take vendettas then you're gonna want to load up your heavies with vanquishers and what-not, rather than eradicators.

Personally i still love them. My strategy for the past 1k tourney was to table my opponent before he could bring flier spam to bear. It worked wonderfully. A hellhound obliterated his CCS behind his aegis top of turn 2 before his 3 vendettas and a vulture could come on and won me the game. Because of the BS3 on the HH, MM seems a waste of points. You are betting on a 1/2 chance to hit and need to be within 12 to do anything. Rather go for the intended targets for the HH with HF. Guard have enough tricks to break armor as it is (i play DKOK, so i have even more!).

the 12" move and shoot really makes them much harder to engage than most other vehicles. Most anti-inf weapons that ignore cover are inaccurate or have trouble with range. Being able to nearly guarantee a 4+ armor squad is dead is invaluable. and that AV12 side is deceptively hard to kill outside melta. Many try firing anti-chimera weapons at its side to find 12 is tougher to get through than most transports.

 zephoid wrote:
My strategy for the past 1k tourney was to table my opponent before he could bring flier spam to bear.

But both griffons and manticores are better at that. They can ignore ADLs and hit people behind bastions. Plus, they can handle vehicles out of LoS.

Sounds like I'm being picky, but when you've seen necron flier spam with the only models on the table are a bastion and an av:13 skimmer, your HH won't do much compared to a manticore, which can also deal with guard flier spam table one obliteration too.

Maybe, but I can hope my hull mounted MM pops it.

and what happens when they instead place the ADL around area terrain and G2G. sure, they only get a 3+ save vs barrage, but you arent getting very effective point efficiency out of artillery there unless you take a Colossus, which is expensive and fragile, or LR nova cannon, which is less accurate, more points, and is often target prioritized over HHs simply for the chassis.

 Ailaros wrote:

Yes, those things cost more, but you actually get what you pay for. The hellhound seems to have a lower price tag AND a worse value.

This is the silliest comment I have read in this thread. Of course it's value is less... it cost less.....

kaiservonhugal wrote:Maybe, but I can hope my hull mounted MM pops it.

Unlikely. You'd have to travel the whole table and then some to get in LoS.

zephoid wrote:and what happens when they instead place the ADL around area terrain and G2G.

Yes, you named one situation where the hellhound is better. Want me to list every possible situation where it's worse?

Red Corsair wrote:This is the silliest comment I have read in this thread. Of course it's value is less... it cost less.....

By value, I mean quality divided by price.

In this case, you actually get 180 points out of a helldrake, where it seems dubious you'd get 130 points out of a hellhound. Just because something is cheaper does not automatically make it better for its points. Otherwise, we'd only ever see guard players packing mortars and flamers because they're the cheapest option.

It turns out that there are many things in the world of 40k that give you more than what you spend on them. Those things are a good value, even if they're expensive.

When did efficiency matter to you, ailaros?

Everything that was said about the hell hound in this thread applies to the Baal with a flamestorm cannon. Now it doesn't have to compete against a fantastic flier in this slot, but there are plenty of other BA fast attack choices that have way better utility in 6th. Makes me kinda sad; I had fun with the fast flame tank in 5th.

Blaggard wrote:When did efficiency matter to you, ailaros?

When people went off the deep end in this conversation. Basically, it went like...

Brymm: Things that are better than hellhounds cost more, which makes them worse than hellhounds.

Me: Yes, but you actually get what you pay for. Paying more isn't in itself a bad thing if it gives you more effectiveness.

Corsair: Duh, if something is cheaper it's going to be worse.

Me: But being cheaper is fine if you get the effectiveness you pay for.

You: Since when did you care how much things cost.

Me: Price doesn't matter, effectiveness does. That's why paying more for a dreadknight is okay, because it actually DOES more. Just being cheaper doesn't make the hellhound better, nor does it make it worse.

Paraphrasing moi?
How very dare you!
I asked about efficiency rather that total cost.

The only thing that is useful is effectiveness. The only benefit to efficiency is to be able to have a few points left over to cram in more guns (read: more effectiveness). Efficiency isn't, in itself a virtue, it's merely a means to an end. The end being more overall killing power.

A dreadknight costs a lot, but gives you a lot of killing power. A hellhound costs less, but gives you even less killing power than even its reduced price allows. Meanwhile, you would get more killing power out of hellhound alternatives than you would from its points in hellhounds.

Yes, that does reference efficiency, but it's for the purpose of talking about effectiveness.

 Ailaros wrote:
The only thing that is useful is effectiveness. The only benefit to efficiency is to be able to have a few points left over to cram in more guns (read: more effectiveness). Efficiency isn't, in itself a virtue, it's merely a means to an end. The end being more overall killing power.

A dreadknight costs a lot, but gives you a lot of killing power. A hellhound costs less, but gives you even less killing power than even its reduced price allows. Meanwhile, you would get more killing power out of hellhound alternatives than you would from its points in hellhounds.

Yes, that does reference efficiency, but it's for the purpose of talking about effectiveness.

Except you are quantifying efficiency by your own yard stick and not being very objective. Your also comparing apples to oranges as these are separate armies released at different time, hence why people were rating it to the "insert flier here". I will take a hellhound over a DK if I need to burn through poisoned gaunts for example as the hellhound does it without risk in return unlike the more expensive DK. You also get two HH for the cost of one DK with a teleporter.

Martel732 wrote:
Everything that was said about the hell hound in this thread applies to the Baal with a flamestorm cannon. Now it doesn't have to compete against a fantastic flier in this slot, but there are plenty of other BA fast attack choices that have way better utility in 6th. Makes me kinda sad; I had fun with the fast flame tank in 5th.

Av:13 and ap3 (IIRC) really make the Baal stand out compared to the hellhound. There's nothing in the BA codex that fills the baal's niché better than the baal. I don't know how many points the baal costs, but it's better than the hellhound. Although I still wouldn't use it if it was in the IG codex.

It's not AV 13 for long. As it approaches the enemy to use the flamer, the AV 11 sides get exposed quickly. It's a suicide tank in an army that can't afford to suicide anything.

 Ailaros wrote:
The only thing that is useful is effectiveness. The only benefit to efficiency is to be able to have a few points left over to cram in more guns (read: more effectiveness). Efficiency isn't, in itself a virtue, it's merely a means to an end. The end being more overall killing power.

A dreadknight costs a lot, but gives you a lot of killing power. A hellhound costs less, but gives you even less killing power than even its reduced price allows. Meanwhile, you would get more killing power out of hellhound alternatives than you would from its points in hellhounds.

Yes, that does reference efficiency, but it's for the purpose of talking about effectiveness.

So... efficiency is good when it increase effectiveness? Just like the definition says it does!

We should really have a new topic to debate, this one's getting old.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not AV 13 for long. As it approaches the enemy to use the flamer, the AV 11 sides get exposed quickly. It's a suicide tank in an army that can't afford to suicide anything.

Well yeah it exposes its side if you don't back it up with razorbacks and vidicators. I've never seen a Baal on its own charging me. I've seen the AV:13 wall a lot; it's pretty worrisome. It's hard to pull off in smaller games though, so it's not a reliable tactic <1750pts.

Terrain also breaks up AV 13 walls. But it's something I suppose.

I personally use Dreadknights armed with only a Heavy Incinerator (160pts). These units die to mass fire and plasma usually with some lascannons thrown in.

It takes approximately 14 BS4 plasma gun shots to kill a DK. Less once you add in the bolters and other weapons from the squads those plasma guns are in.

A plasma gun will kill a hellhound 3.6% of the time. A lascannon is not much better honestly bringing the total up to 10%. It's slightly easier to strip hull points but not as easy as it is to wound and have a GK fail his save to less than St6 weapons (weapons a hellhound is immune to).

There is a 30 point difference in their costs and yes, a DK can brawl but a DK also can't lay the template down well on turn one like a hellhound.

Personally, I've found my fast attack to look something like this in every non-chaos allied army I build:

-Vendetta
-Vendetta
-2 Hellhounds

In one force org I've got massive anti-infantry and solid AA & AT. All for 520pts (for 28% of an 1850 list).

It's far from useless. Torrent weapons are amongst the best weapons in the game right now. The ability to take two in a squadron is insane.

Without looking at the other units i've found the hellhounds gained a good boost against my regular necron opponant as the warrior is now SV4. That little change meant my hellhounds became viable. I've not used them much before because of that. I'd still be weary about taking them to my FLGS. The hellhound, in my eyes, should support a mechanized advance. That said, the chimera can pour out firepower already. The best thing that plays in the hellhounds favor is the fact that you can aim the template and it is auto-hit. This means that each shot will generally hit more models per shot than most other weapons. Between it's strength, high hit ratio and decent ap, I think it's worth consideration.

I've not played HHs in 6th yet, but I found them pretty underwhelming in 5th, although I play in a MEQ heavy meta.

The only variant I have had any luck with was the Banewolf. I ran two at one point, used Creed to give them outflank then rolled them in somewhere nasty.
The ability to move 12", fire their (classes as defensive!) weapon and the hull heavy flamer, and then be hit in CC only on 6's by whatever survived worked quite well. Worst case they at least soaked up a lot more than their points cost in firepower for a turn and forced my opponent to move his units to ensure they died. (Tank shocking through a unit with one tank to bunch up a unit then dropping the gas template of AP3 poisoned instadeath with the other proved particularly amusing at times)

I usually play fluffy, but I just can't see a place for any of the HH variants in a competitive IG list, they don't really fit in with the current gun-line / leafblower / air-cav / power-ally-blob meta lists (or have 'better' alternatives)

Anyone else amused that 'He Who Scoffs At Templates' had a change of heart?

But anyway:

Hell Hounds are a niche unit. They're not the everything unit people pine for, which is a rather nice alternative than spamming Vendettas simply because everyone knows they're underpriced...

You don't build your list around it; more over, its there if you have the points/desire for its strengths: Fast, Outflanking Anti-Infantry Vehicle that had a ranged template.

The only reason everything gets ignored in the FA slot is because the Vendetta is drastically underpriced for what it does...

Who the hell scoffs at templates? Not rolling to hit has always been awesome sauce. Ignoring cover is an extra bonus. That's two mechanics that templates just give the middle finger to.

 KplKeegan wrote:
Anyone else amused that 'He Who Scoffs At Templates' had a change of heart?

No one has scoffed at the hellhound's template weapon. Maybe you should look at the responses.

Hell Hounds are a niche unit. They're not the everything unit people pine for, which is a rather nice alternative than spamming Vendettas simply because everyone knows they're underpriced...

The thing is, it's a niché unit, that can have its niche filled by better alternatives which can also function as multi-role units. Griffons can do anti-infantry for cheaper, and act as snipers. Manticores do anti-infantry better, act as snipers and are great anti-tank.

You don't build your list around it; more over, its there if you have the points/desire for its strengths: Fast, Outflanking Anti-Infantry Vehicle that had a ranged template.

It's not outflanking. That would make it a slightly different story.

The only reason everything gets ignored in the FA slot is because the Vendetta is drastically underpriced for what it does...

Also there is nothing else in the codex that does what the vendetta does. Show me a unit that is reliable anti-air (hydras suck pretty hard), decent anti-tank and can transport scoring units making them almost invulnerable until they need to clear something off an objective.
It can't be done. The hellhound does one thing. It's good at that one thing, but there are multi-role units that do it as well, or if not, better.

I have played a 2k list that was all mech vets with plasma and autocannons teams and melta guys with demos 3 vendettas, two russes and two hell hounds squadroned. The hell hounds did their job exceptionally well making a mockery of my opponents hellions and in turn clearing that side of the board so I could relax sit back and watch my castle melt everything while my vendettas took out his ravagers. Only thing I found was you must squadron them the single template is good but works much better in twos.

 Daedricbob wrote:
I've not played HHs in 6th yet, but I found them pretty underwhelming in 5th, although I play in a MEQ heavy meta.

The only variant I have had any luck with was the Banewolf. I ran two at one point, used Creed to give them outflank then rolled them in somewhere nasty.
The ability to move 12", fire their (classes as defensive!) weapon and the hull heavy flamer, and then be hit in CC only on 6's by whatever survived worked quite well. Worst case they at least soaked up a lot more than their points cost in firepower for a turn and forced my opponent to move his units to ensure they died. (Tank shocking through a unit with one tank to bunch up a unit then dropping the gas template of AP3 poisoned instadeath with the other proved particularly amusing at times)

I usually play fluffy, but I just can't see a place for any of the HH variants in a competitive IG list, they don't really fit in with the current gun-line / leafblower / air-cav / power-ally-blob meta lists (or have 'better' alternatives)

I have a nicely built (glued) and very well painted Banewolf, and I have been thinking a lot about how I should use it properly now in 6th. I used it to great effect a few times in 5th edition, but I haven't had any luck with it in 6th so far. The thing is that vehicles are always at least hit on a 3+ in close combat now, so you have to make sure that it kills off any models that can hurt it. The biggest drawback to it is that it costs so many points with a dozer blade and smoke launchers, it costs about the same as a stock LRBT. It does draw a gakload of fire, but the thing is that you almost never can get a better coversave than 5+ for it, nomatter what you do.

Hellhounds are amazing against infantry, and under-rated against MEQ.

Just remember to mvoe and fire, move and fire. They can be an awesome part of a wall of AV.

The problem with Banewolves is that the marines that you want it to kill are usually capable of taking out an AV 12 vehicles. Even a tactical squad with meltagun and power fist will do the job.

 BryllCream wrote:
Hellhounds are amazing against infantry, and under-rated against MEQ.

Just remember to mvoe and fire, move and fire. They can be an awesome part of a wall of AV.

The problem with Banewolves is that the marines that you want it to kill are usually capable of taking out an AV 12 vehicles. Even a tactical squad with meltagun and power fist will do the job.

Exactly, that is why you want to make sure that the Bane Wolf either completely finishes off the squad, or at least kills off the sergeant and special weapon.