As the title says are Space Wolves generally larger than other Astartes? I ask this because in a few books (cant name any) they always seem to comment on Spaces Wolves being much bigger than every one else and tower over other Astartes is this known fluff? Or is it just the authors trying to big up the Space Wolves so when they fall its more dramatic?

I've never heard of Space Wolves being bigger than other Astartes, personally.

Minus that guy from the Space Wolf omnibi, but he's just one dude and I'm not a fan of those books, myself.

Body size? probably not any larger. Beard size? absolutely the biggest!

Out of the way ladies

Astartes vary is size - some big, some small, in the BL novels and other fluff.

I don't think any one Chapter has especially large fellows in its ranks...............

Yeah, I'd say it was artistic licence of the author, trying to make them sound cooler by exaggerating. Happens alot. Which leads to all the contradictions in the fluff.

Maybe we should ask the Sisters of Battle. lol

Joking aside, there is nothing codex wise I can think of that makes the Wolves explicitly bigger than any other Marines, though there are definitely some very large individuals in the chapter.

From what I recall, Fenrisians and Catachites are bigger than baseline humans, but the references to Wolves being bigger or stronger than other Astartes are sporadic and generally only found in Black Library books, with tremendous variation from author to author.

The only size difference in Astartes that has ever been clearly states was the shorter, broader build of Grey Knights, states in the ancient fluff as due to the terribly gravitational forces of Titan.

The rest, other than slight variations in individuals, are all around the stated height of approx 10ft.

Chaplain Grimaldus, as documented in Aaron Demski-Bowden's Helsreash was 12' tall. The Black Templars, on average, were only 11 feet tall. The Ultramarines, having the most stable gene seed, are the tallest at 12' average. The Space Wolves and the World eaters were the shortest, at only 8', which is why they're so angry all of the time.

Interesting, thank you kronk, if the wolves are actually documented as being shorter than average, then combined with the beards and beer, it might go some way to explain why they got rid of squats, as they'd moved the dwarven tropes over to the new space dwarves, the SWs...

So space wolves are the new squats.

Of course, the geneseed of the Primarchs could influence size variations amongst their respective legions.

And also too what has been documented was the gradual height increases with the Thousand Son psykers who constantly used their powers. Some rose in excess of 13 feet before the Horus Heresy, dwarfing their ten foot tall brethren that came to be the average height of Thousand Son marines.

That's exactly how Jervus Johnson explained it in White Dwarf.

We already have short, bearded space marines in the Space Wolves. Break the molds for the squats and lets move on...

@ Warone: I forgot about the Thousand Sons.

How big was the Skjald in Prospero Burns? He had some modifications done to him, and I believe became taller than the average humans around him, I could see the wolves being close to 10 feet based on that, since he wouldn't be as large as full astartes of the 6th, and he never mentioned Bjorn or other wolves towering over him, 10 feet makes total sense for the Wolves, being... stout and hearty, like a good beer or soup. Are they small? Feth no! But they are like the scrappy younger brother. He's a little smaller than the older kids, but he'll feth you up right if you pick on him.

What page does it say Grimaldus is 12ft tall ? Had a quick glance through and could not see it?

Seems very tall?

@ Mr Morden: I might have my sources mixed up. Not sure where I read that, then...

I believe the changes wrought upon a human body undergoing the Rites of Initiation into the Adeptus Astartes are probably much, much stronger than any genetical differences between the native populations of the various recruitment worlds, barring the most extreme mutations. Accordingly, the difference between a Space Marine from Fenris to a Space Marine from Macragge will be less obvious than between the locals of these two worlds.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:approx 10ft

kronk wrote:]Chaplain Grimaldus 12' tall [...] Black Templars 11 feet tall [...] Space Wolves and World Eaters only 8'

WarOne wrote:some rose in excess of 13 feet before the Horus Heresy

lolwat

Ridiculous. Has any of these authors ever actually read a GW Codex? Someone needs to tell Jes Goodwin so that he can have a laugh again.

I have always been under the impression that after all the various implants, and chem therapy and marine hocus pocus gene stuff..they all end up being around within a few inches, the same height weight and build, in order to make everything like power armor, vehicles , weapons all match their dimesions..but wait that makes sense...scratch that yes their height is only matched by the magnitude of the awesomesness..titan size marines here we come.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
I have always been under the impression that after all the various implants, and chem therapy and marine hocus pocus gene stuff..they all end up being around within a few inches, the same height weight and build, in order to make everything like power armor, vehicles , weapons all match their dimesions..but wait that makes sense...scratch that yes their height is only matched by the magnitude of the awesomesness..titan size marines here we come.

Don't be silly We all know that the Imperium can't get anything right when it comes to size or tactics... I mean this is considered a valid tank tactic in the Imperial Guard :

 Lynata wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:approx 10ft

Ridiculous. Has any of these authors ever actually read a GW Codex? Someone needs to tell Jes Goodwin so that he can have a laugh again.

I don't speak for anyone else here, but I do know Dan Abnett has written about 10 feet tall marines on more than one occasion and I'll be taking his word over that of anyone else around here, thanks all the same. The Black Library books are seriously vetted for background deviations and Abnett himself has described the rigors of adhering and having work studied for discrepancies deemed unacceptable.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Astartes vary is size - some big, some small, in the BL novels and other fluff.

I don't think any one Chapter has especially large fellows in its ranks...............

QFT
IMHO if the 7 ft tall Fenrisian (who is stronger then average human) barbarian goes under surgery - well he is ****** giant (check Bjorn)....
.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
I have always been under the impression that after all the various implants, and chem therapy and marine hocus pocus gene stuff..they all end up being around within a few inches, the same height weight and build, in order to make everything like power armor, vehicles , weapons all match their dimesions..but wait that makes sense...scratch that yes their height is only matched by the magnitude of the awesomesness..titan size marines here we come.

Don't be silly We all know that the Imperium can't get anything right when it comes to size or tactics... I mean this is considered a valid tank tactic in the Imperial Guard :

Of course it is..when you start sticking guns on agri tractors and calling them tanks, so driving close to try and whack them with a saber makes fully sense, that and the officer getting wacked in the groin by the battlecannons breech, but its just more awesomeness!

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I don't speak for anyone else here, but I do know Dan Abnett has written about 10 feet tall marines on more than one occasion and I'll be taking his word over that of anyone else around here, thanks all the same. The Black Library books are seriously vetted for background deviations and Abnett himself has described the rigors of adhering and having work studied for discrepancies deemed unacceptable.

Don't get me wrong, in the end there is no one "correct height" anyways - it's left to each of us individually to decide which of the many contradicting sources we want to follow. I guess I'm just a bit miffed that the various sources of fluff cannot even be somewhat consistent on something as basic as approximate size, as well as thinking it somewhat silly how - in Jes Goodwin's book - the Space Marines "seem to get bigger with every book". No wonder many (not all, thankfully) their fans arrive at what I, being used to other (obviously less exaggerating) sources, would call hyperbole!

As long as people at least realise that book X is just suggesting how something could be, rather than supposedly determining a fixed truth, it is all good. The real issue is that there's still way too many people thinking all these books and whatever details they tell are meant to be fully compatible, and thus comparable, with each other. It's why we have oh so many heated debates here in this very forum.

 Lynata wrote:
I believe the changes wrought upon a human body undergoing the Rites of Initiation into the Adeptus Astartes are probably much, much stronger than any genetical differences between the native populations of the various recruitment worlds, barring the most extreme mutations. Accordingly, the difference between a Space Marine from Fenris to a Space Marine from Macragge will be less obvious than between the locals of these two worlds.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:approx 10ft

kronk wrote:]Chaplain Grimaldus 12' tall [...] Black Templars 11 feet tall [...] Space Wolves and World Eaters only 8'

WarOne wrote:some rose in excess of 13 feet before the Horus Heresy

lolwat

Ridiculous. Has any of these authors ever actually read a GW Codex? Someone needs to tell Jes Goodwin so that he can have a laugh again.

To be fair we need to check the sources as I don't recall these measurements when I read the novels and Kronk did add he was unsure of his source for the Grimaldus quote....

12ft is a bit silly. I figure theyre 7ft unarmored, 8 ft armored. I believe the Alpha Legion grew em a bit bigger to blend in with their Primarch (who was probably shorter than most).

I kind of find it funny how in every book somebody has to be dwarfed by somebody....I mean are all authors 1,70 m tall and bald so they have er... complexeses?

12 is stretching it, maybe if you already were close to 7 foot pre-transplant. Usually the body can't handle the growth past 11 feet, so that is the norm for most chapters.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
12ft is a bit silly. I figure theyre 7ft unarmored, 8 ft armored. I believe the Alpha Legion grew em a bit bigger to blend in with their Primarch (who was probably shorter than most).

Abnett said that Alpharious is at average astartes height IIRC...


REAL QUESTION : IF THEY ARE 12 FT TALL, HOW BIG ARE THE HEADS?

Mr. Morden: True. If there's one thing I should have learned by now, it is that the actual source might say something different than claimed. I guess in this case I'm more willing to believe it because it's a larger number of people saying so (not just here but the 'net as a whole) and it kind of fits into my prejudice regarding non-GW sources and Marine hyperbole. Or hyperbole in general - the SM are just the ones "profiting" from it the most because the majority of BL novels is about them.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if anyone brings forward actual quotes tho, or at least more people posting info from memory.

d3m01iti0n wrote:12ft is a bit silly. I figure theyre 7ft unarmored, 8 ft armored.

Personally, I'm going with GW's measurements of 7-7.5 feet, in armour - see the lifesize drawing I linked in my first reply.
As Jes stated in the GW design podcast, that's large enough - it's not their height that makes them stand out, but the sheer bulk.

not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

I know when I was deployed and the bullets started flying I wished I was alot smaller

7ft before armor 8ft-9ft afterwards sounds about reasonable, but remember before all the marine fans get their adamantine undies in a bunch, they are almost as broad as they are tall, and all muscle, so still macho, just dont have to watch the clearance signs when walking under bridges.

Just checked a scale pic in the IA : 3 taros campaign and it stated the combat blade of the marine pictured was 50cm in blade length, doing a bit of screen measurements puts the marine in armor at a little over 250cm in height 2.5m so around 8ft.

about as accurate as I can get for now.

I think that we obviously have to take into account the fact that bridges are taller to accommodate the Emperor's Angels of Death driving around in their Fiat 500s...

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

Even better:

I'd really like to see a squad of ~12 feet Space Marines trying to squeeze themselves into a Rhino built for ~6 feet humans.

I don't speak for anyone else here, but I do know Dan Abnett has written about 10 feet tall marines on more than one occasion and I'll be taking his word over that of anyone else around here, thanks all the same. The Black Library books are seriously vetted for background deviations and Abnett himself has described the rigors of adhering and having work studied for discrepancies deemed unacceptable.

You're kidding, right? Black Library novels aren't vetted for gak.
Here:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

I know Rhinos are small, but that could be part of the oversight prior to the strict vetting guidelines put on place with the growth of Black Library. I got to be on a BL round table at Adepticon last year and they talked about some of the changes in background.

 Lynata wrote:
Mr. Morden: True. If there's one thing I should have learned by now, it is that the actual source might say something different than claimed. I guess in this case I'm more willing to believe it because it's a larger number of people saying so (not just here but the 'net as a whole) and it kind of fits into my prejudice regarding non-GW sources and Marine hyperbole. Or hyperbole in general - the SM are just the ones "profiting" from it the most because the majority of BL novels is about them.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if anyone brings forward actual quotes tho, or at least more people posting info from memory.

d3m01iti0n wrote:12ft is a bit silly. I figure theyre 7ft unarmored, 8 ft armored.

Personally, I'm going with GW's measurements of 7-7.5 feet, in armour - see the lifesize drawing I linked in my first reply.
As Jes stated in the GW design podcast, that's large enough - it's not their height that makes them stand out, but the sheer bulk.

Indeed Just glanced through Heslreach again no chore as I do love that novel - and whilst there are many references to the Astartes as "Giants" by the non Marine POV characters _ Ican't see a measurement of height, but might have missed it. Around 8ft in armour seems about right to me - as you say they are tall AND Bulky but even scarier is that they are also fast with it.

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

I know when I was deployed and the bullets started flying I wished I was alot smaller

7ft before armor 8ft-9ft afterwards sounds about reasonable, but remember before all the marine fans get their adamantine undies in a bunch, they are almost as broad as they are tall, and all muscle, so still macho, just dont have to watch the clearance signs when walking under bridges.

The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters. Whilst I know all this 'Star Child' background is no longer so fashionable, this has never been retconned to my knowledge and again, as with Mr Abnett, it's another valid clue to the true height of Astartes.

IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

I know when I was deployed and the bullets started flying I wished I was alot smaller

7ft before armor 8ft-9ft afterwards sounds about reasonable, but remember before all the marine fans get their adamantine undies in a bunch, they are almost as broad as they are tall, and all muscle, so still macho, just dont have to watch the clearance signs when walking under bridges.

The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters. Whilst I know all this 'Star Child' background is no longer so fashionable, this has never been retconned to my knowledge and again, as with Mr Abnett, it's another valid clue to the true height of Astartes.

IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

early versions of the grey knights then..

Psienesis wrote:You're kidding, right? Black Library novels aren't vetted for gak.
Here:
http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

I can kinda understand his impression. It probably depends on what level of "consistency control" an individual would wish for - there does seem to be a set of rules that have to be held sacrosanct in all outsourced fluff, but obviously that does not prevent a lot of contradictions as soon as a book goes into detail.

In some cases, it could also be the responsibility of an individual editor who is less acribic than his or her peers.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

Well, the lifesize drawing was made for the Inquisitor range of miniatures, which were made completely from scratch and in a different scale. Maybe GW really just doesn't think Marines need to be bigger.

Although it could also be a decision based on how newly purchased models would fit in with an older army. With Orks, it is fairly easy to explain size differences ("dem boyz ovva here are meanier than da other uns', so dey's bigger!"), but having a small Ultramarine next to a big one might look odd.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters.

Where exactly? Every single GW Codex I've read so far said "7 feet". Unlike with the novel claims, this is something I need to see a source for until I believe it.

2 out of the 3 voices in my head are sure the average height is between 10 and 11 feet.

The third voice keeps reminding me that I'm hungry.

Off to lunch!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
not to mention but on a battlefield littered with high power ranged weapons, being very large and wearing bright colored armor will likely mean a much easier target.

I know when I was deployed and the bullets started flying I wished I was alot smaller

7ft before armor 8ft-9ft afterwards sounds about reasonable, but remember before all the marine fans get their adamantine undies in a bunch, they are almost as broad as they are tall, and all muscle, so still macho, just dont have to watch the clearance signs when walking under bridges.

The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters. Whilst I know all this 'Star Child' background is no longer so fashionable, this has never been retconned to my knowledge and again, as with Mr Abnett, it's another valid clue to the true height of Astartes.

IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

Where does it say that - Looking in Slaves to Darkness and whilst it talks about the quality of equipment and few but best psykes can't see anythig about their actual dimensions? Is it STD or Lost and the Damned?

well based on my very scientific "knife blade math" 2.5m will be the height I will advocate for a astates average give or take 20-30 cm, and leave the super size marines for the propaganda vids.

 Lynata wrote:

In some cases, it could also be the responsibility of an individual editor who is less acribic than his or her peers.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:IMHO, that Jes Goodwin speech is a flimsy defense of the marine models remaining the same height as other ranges have increased in size. (just consider how much bigger an ork is these days!!).

Well, the lifesize drawing was made for the Inquisitor range of miniatures, which were made completely from scratch and in a different scale. Maybe GW really just doesn't think Marines need to be bigger.

Although it could also be a decision based on how newly purchased models would fit in with an older army. With Orks, it is fairly easy to explain size differences ("dem boyz ovva here are meanier than da other uns', so dey's bigger!"), but having a small Ultramarine next to a big one might look odd.

I believe this is the case, I think the mini designers have slowed the growth of marines for some time, trying to restrain the range from suddenly jumping in size and rendering entire armies defunct. If they could have, I think they'd have just changed the entire marine range to much larger minis else. Especially given the size of a catachan, some of whom are now a good deal larger than rogue trader marines or even fairly recent scout marines.

 Lynata wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The Realm of Chaos era background stated that the Grey Knights were 'almost as broad as tall, the geneseed battling the overwhelming gravity of titan, eventually pushing out when it could no longer push up', or similar and that stated 8ft as a height, again supporting taller marines in the rest of the chapters.

Where exactly? Every single GW Codex I've read so far said "7 feet". Unlike with the novel claims, this is something I need to see a source for until I believe it.

I remember reading it around the time I had recently purchase The Lost and The Damned, as it's a shared memory with rolling up independent daemons and converting a range of metal models over to them. Perhaps an old White Dwarf? I'm also remembering seeing that first boxed set of terminators around that time. Sorry, it was a good few years back!

Slaves to Darkness has all the Grey Knights referecnes - Lost and the damned is Sensei / Starchild.

It may be that you are thinking of the size of Terminator armour which is both bigger and bulkier??

I use my smaller lead Orks as flash gits, and they always roll very well, ancient minis are the luckiest, I miss all the wonderful RT beakies I use to have..ahh those were the days.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Slaves to Darkness has all the Grey Knights referecnes - Lost and the damned is Sensei / Starchild.

It may be that you are thinking of the size of Terminator armour which is both bigger and bulkier??

No, it was a quote from the time of LatD. It was specifically about Grey Knights and it was in relation to their size being shorter than a regular marine, in reference to Titan and her gravity.

Some novel perhaps?

I'm gonna check the Codex Imperialis and the 2E Marine 'dex later on, for I recall it had some fluff about Grey Knights, but I really cannot remember anything like this ... better to make sure I may not have just missed a line somewhere, though.

But technically, why would they be shorter? It's not like the Grey Knights are born on Titan. Which, by the way, has less gravity than Earth's own moon.
And even if this is for some reason different in 40k and Titan has a very high gravity, I would expect gravitational dampening fields in place to ease the stay of any visitors and garrisoned forces of the Ordo Malleus...
Okay, this wouldn't be the first strange thing I've read in 40k, but still.

Does official art also count towards this debate as I've seen marine heights comparable to very large orks. Now that would be very subject and also misleading at the same time but can those also be used for inference?

 Lynata wrote:
It's not like the Grey Knights are born on Titan. Which, by the way, has less gravity than Earth's own moon.

I guess the guy that first wrote that down thought Titan is a country on Saturn.

A... country.

On a gas giant?

That's rich.

As far as art goes.... remember, Space Marines have the air of the mythic about them in the Imperium. "Official Art" might be capturing that theme in depicting them as larger-than-life.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only size difference in Astartes that has ever been clearly states was the shorter, broader build of Grey Knights, states in the ancient fluff as due to the terribly gravitational forces of Titan.

Terrible gravitational force of 0.14 g? I hope Grey Knights never step their foot on Earth, they would be crushed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
2 out of the 3 voices in my head are sure the average height is between 10 and 11 feet.

Are you joking? I can't tell any more what is a joke and what is stuff from BL books...

Titan had some wierd stuff done to it to make the GK fortress monastary. It probably does have a very high gravitational field now because of some of that stuff.

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only size difference in Astartes that has ever been clearly states was the shorter, broader build of Grey Knights, states in the ancient fluff as due to the terribly gravitational forces of Titan.

terrible gravitational force of 0.14 g? I hope Grey Knights never step their foot on Earth, they would be crushed.

Did you just bring factual science into a conversation about the size of genetically engineered super knights in the 41st millennium who live in a secret base on a moon, one that can travel through time, that spend their time fighting demons, skeletal egyptian space robots and space elves?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
The only size difference in Astartes that has ever been clearly states was the shorter, broader build of Grey Knights, states in the ancient fluff as due to the terribly gravitational forces of Titan.

terrible gravitational force of 0.14 g? I hope Grey Knights never step their foot on Earth, they would be crushed.

Did you just bring factual science into a conversation about the size of genetically engineered super knights in the 41st millennium who live in a secret base on a moon, one that can travel through time, that spend their time fighting demons, skeletal egyptian space robots and space elves?

Don't forget the Soccer Hooligan Fungi!

Where does the 8+ feet height come from? I'm pretty sure they've always been around 7 feet. It clearly says 7 feet in the Chaos Space Marines Codex and this pic shows they are 7 feet, in armour.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6226/smjesgoodwininterpretat.jpg
Before anyone says "He's 8 feet tall!", look at his feet, it starts at 1 foot.

Edit: If they are bigger than 8 feet then they wouldn't work in urban terrain or space ships.

That's one of the biggest issues (or blessings, if you prefer artistic licence over continuity) in the 40k franchise - the many possible sources of fluff can and often do differ in details, at times wildly so.

I guess the body height of Space Marines is just one of the things where some authors like to "make it more epic" (true 'bigger equals better' thinking) for their readers, so much so that Jes Goodwin from GW joked about them "getting bigger with every book" in a GW Design Podcast.

As long as people are aware that book X just presents a possibility rather than fact and that it's up to them to pick what they like most, it's all good. Unfortunately, this is not the case very often.

 Gargantuan wrote:
Where does the 8+ feet height come from? I'm pretty sure they've always been around 7 feet. It clearly says 7 feet in the Chaos Space Marines Codex and this pic shows they are 7 feet, in armour.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6226/smjesgoodwininterpretat.jpg
Before anyone says "He's 8 feet tall!", look at his feet, it starts at 1 foot.

Edit: If they are bigger than 8 feet then they wouldn't work in urban terrain or space ships.

That was during the era of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, though. Didn't we start getting Space Marine "creep" after that?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Did you just bring factual science into a conversation about the size of genetically engineered super knights in the 41st millennium who live in a secret base on a moon, one that can travel through time, that spend their time fighting demons, skeletal egyptian space robots and space elves?

Yes. Unless there is bloody good reason I do not expect masses of celestial objects vary by orders of magnitude. I also expect sun to be hot.

 kronk wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:
Where does the 8+ feet height come from? I'm pretty sure they've always been around 7 feet. It clearly says 7 feet in the Chaos Space Marines Codex and this pic shows they are 7 feet, in armour.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/6226/smjesgoodwininterpretat.jpg
Before anyone says "He's 8 feet tall!", look at his feet, it starts at 1 foot.

Edit: If they are bigger than 8 feet then they wouldn't work in urban terrain or space ships.

That was during the era of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, though. Didn't we start getting Space Marine "creep" after that?

Newest Chaos Space Marine codex page 36, first paragraph.
"the Space Marines stand seven feet tall"

Titan did get heavily altered to make the fortress monestary, and it spent a bunch of time in the Warp. The mechanisims for Titan to make a Warp Jump are still in place. Maybe they create an artificially high gravitational field.

The bigger they are.....

Gargantuan wrote:

kronk wrote:That was during the era of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition, though. Didn't we start getting Space Marine "creep" after that?

Newest Chaos Space Marine codex page 36, first paragraph.
"the Space Marines stand seven feet tall"

And Jes Goodwin's lifesize drawing is from 1997, so about ~3rd Edition (whose WH&DH codices had a lot of overlap with the Inquisitor game the drawing was made for).

To my knowledge, the 7 feet thing has been a constant throughout GW's material. It should say so in the 5E Marine 'dex as well, if I recall correctly.

I feel that some people just do not stop to think what these numbers actually mean in practice. I made few illustrative comparisons (human gentlemen are stock images.)



A bit over seven foot for armoured marine is quite enough (Seven foot unarmoured plus few inches from armour.)
He looks massive, yet he would be capable of operating in human scale environment.


Ten feet on the other hand is just ludicrous. Best defence against these marines would be to build human sized corridors and they cannot enter.


And something like twelve or thirteen feet is even more absurd. Then we are in territory where a marine would be able to pick up a Rhino and carry it around instead of other way around.

/applause

I really like how the gentleman is going all "" in the second image, as if asking "r u srs?" to the reader (or perhaps a certain Black Library author).

Also, can you do one with 12 or 13 feet, just for lulz?

Though this explains how these SM die to common lasfire... sheesh, the eye-sockets in those helmets are the size of dinner plates. You couldn't help but put a round through them at 200 meters.

Going by GW's Codex fluff as well as equipment stats in the Inquisitor RPG, Astartes power armour isn't all that effective at stopping lasgun rounds. I feel their properties have been greatly exaggerated in various licensed products.

Who needs to shoot helmet lenses if the helmet "just" has 8 armour points and the average IG lasgun can do anything between 2-12 points of damage per shot?

You cannot cite rules vs The Lore, we have clearly been told by GW that marines on the tabletop are nothing like as powerful as they should be, because if they were as powerful as they should be, you'd take one or two vs an entire 2k tyranid army.

Using game mechanics to prove issues of The Lore for your side of a debate is inherently flawed.

I also liked the scale images but don't see why 'they wouldn't fit in human constructed buildings' would be a concern? The Imperium makes everything to grand scale and in addition, their size certainly wouldn't be a hindrance in xenos constructs they would be assaulting or outside. It also has one massive achilles heel, if you're right and marines are a mere 8 feet tall, then terminators, built for assaulting bunkers and space hulks, would still be 10 feet tall and they are built to do the very things you say are proof of the 'tiny marine'.

While PA isn't impervious to lasgun rounds, the shot will have lost a lot of its killing power melting through the ceramite. Then it has to also get past the ribcage(which is practically a second layer of armor) and have enough energy to fry internal organs. Which themselves have redundancies.

Its a marine's insane physical build plus his armor that makes him "imperivious" to lasguns.

 Grey Templar wrote:
While PA isn't impervious to lasgun rounds, the shot will have lost a lot of its killing power melting through the ceramite. Then it has to also get past the ribcage(which is practically a second layer of armor) and have enough energy to fry internal organs. Which themselves have redundancies.

Its a marine's insane physical build plus his armor that makes him "imperivious" to lasguns.

That's why you shoot them in the *EYEBALL*.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I also liked the scale images but don't see why 'they wouldn't fit in human constructed buildings' would be a concern? The Imperium makes everything to grand scale and in addition, their size certainly wouldn't be a hindrance in xenos constructs they would be assaulting or outside. It also has one massive achilles heel, if you're right and marines are a mere 8 feet tall, then terminators, built for assaulting bunkers and space hulks, would still be 10 feet tall and they are built to do the very things you say are proof of the 'tiny marine'.

Rhinos were originally designed to normal sized people. Think about that.

And they're not eight feet tall. They're seven. Also, A terminator is not two feet taller than a PA marine. Only thing that makes terminators taller is the part of armour that goes above their heads (and maybe an inch from the boots if they've thicker soles.) That is not even a foot. Terminators are a bit under eight feet tall at most.

Which is also not garunteed to kill them. Regular people can get shot in the eyeball and survive. You have to have a certain angle to get the brain or spinal cord.

Then its going to be difficult to hit them there deliberatly. Its hard enough to hit center mass of a moving target. To deliberatly get a shot through the eye is nothing short of extraordinary luck.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:You cannot cite rules vs The Lore, we have clearly been told by GW that marines on the tabletop are nothing like as powerful as they should be, because if they were as powerful as they should be, you'd take one or two vs an entire 2k tyranid army.

Told by whom?

You can also consult the Codex: Angels of Death for The Lore:
"Against most small arms the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st Millenium."

In the end this too is just as much a matter of interpretation and personal preferences as Marine height, but I think it's rather interesting that this fluff quote, the TT rules and the Inquisitor game all seem to be fairly consistent in this.
On a sidenote, Inquisitor isn't actually balanced all that well (although I tend to think this is more a result of the game mechanics rather than individual stats).

MeanGreenStompa wrote:It also has one massive achilles heel, if you're right and marines are a mere 8 feet tall, then terminators, built for assaulting bunkers and space hulks, would still be 10 feet tall and they are built to do the very things you say are proof of the 'tiny marine'.

I think he is saying that Marines are 7 feet tall. At least this is how I interpret the lines on the paper. Quite similar to what Jes Goodwin has drawn.
Given how often I see the "8 feet" pop up, I'm almost inclined to start believing it is some sort of reflex now.

Looking at Terminator armour, it probably adds a single foot or so of size, so basically make the 7 foot Marine an 8 foot one. On that note, it should be pointed out that this is already too big and bulky for a Rhino - a vehicle originally designed for baseline human explorers - though! Certainly, Terminators cannot be deployed everywhere.

Grey Templar wrote:Its a marine's insane physical build plus his armor that makes him "imperivious" to lasguns.

Apparently not, given the Codex quote and how it refers to injuries.
Although I do not doubt that certain novels etc may paint a different picture, if the protagonist is an Astartes. Probably the same ones where Marines are 8-12 feet high, too.
Damage location likely plays a role, but considering how lasguns work, they can make flesh react in a real messy way.

But this is something where I think the Inquisitor rules represent the Marines quite well. They don't drop dead from receiving a single lasgun wound - they just get hurt, and their performance suffers accordingly, but you need to hit them several times more than a normal guy in order to stop one.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Which is also not garunteed to kill them. Regular people can get shot in the eyeball and survive. You have to have a certain angle to get the brain or spinal cord.

Then its going to be difficult to hit them there deliberatly. Its hard enough to hit center mass of a moving target. To deliberatly get a shot through the eye is nothing short of extraordinary luck.

Rarely does a ballistic round of any moderate caliber enter a human body through the eyeball and fail to evacuate the brain-pan through the back of the skull, and certainly not at the calibers of most 40K war-fighting weapons. A las-round, which couples both ballistic impact damage as well as thermal energy transfer, would both destroy the eye and, exceedingly likely, cook the vital brain-meat behind it. You don't need to be killed instantly to become a casualty when your frontal lobes and a good portion of your cerebral cortex has been turned into so much blackened gristle.

 Lynata wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:You cannot cite rules vs The Lore, we have clearly been told by GW that marines on the tabletop are nothing like as powerful as they should be, because if they were as powerful as they should be, you'd take one or two vs an entire 2k tyranid army.

Told by whom?

Other than the billion quotes and references in codices and background shorts and black library novels about tiny groups of marines holding the line against hundreds of orks and such, I guess the open admittance came in the 'Movie Marines' article in White Dwarf.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Other than the billion quotes and references in codices and background shorts and black library novels about tiny groups of marines holding the line against hundreds of orks and such, I guess the open admittance came in the 'Movie Marines' article in White Dwarf.

You mean this one?

"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws, and general plausability to keep things entertaining. Space Marines are embellished in fiction, where their heroism and invincibility are accentuated."
- introduction to the WD Movie Marines list

Seriously, these rules incorporate stunt doubles. Did you actually read the article, or are you just operating on popular hearsay?

[edit] I'm actually glad you brought this up. It kinda serves the point I'm demonstrating.

Isn't Dan Abnett's book Horus Rising a point where he claims marines are ten feet tall and genetic mutation by Fabius Bile/Admech that sought to improve Space Marines through an Index Astartes reference?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarOne wrote:
Isn't Dan Abnett's book Horus Rising a point where he claims marines are ten feet tall and genetic mutation by Fabius Bile/Admech that sought to improve Space Marines through an Index Astartes reference?

Also in podcat, Jes Goodwin has stated:

Jes Goodwin wrote:"because actually if you read the novels they get progressively bigger every time we write a novel."

guys ... guys... I just checked.... Space Marines are 1.5 inches tall... guys...

 Lynata wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Other than the billion quotes and references in codices and background shorts and black library novels about tiny groups of marines holding the line against hundreds of orks and such, I guess the open admittance came in the 'Movie Marines' article in White Dwarf.

You mean this one?

"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws, and general plausability to keep things entertaining. Space Marines are embellished in fiction, where their heroism and invincibility are accentuated."
- introduction to the WD Movie Marines list

Seriously, these rules incorporate stunt doubles. Did you actually read the article, or are you just operating on popular hearsay?

[edit] I'm actually glad you brought this up. It kinda serves the point I'm demonstrating.

Of course i read the article... But thanks for the vote of confidence...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/238362.page

Whilst it keeps it's tongue firmly in it's cheek and is disclaimer ridden as a fun article (- we could do with more of this sort of thing again GW), it's about making the marines on the tabletop reflect the marines in The Lore, that included background written in the codices as well as novels. The question should be which is more 'real'? The rules that are supposed to bring about a 'fair game' on the tabletop or the books about marines 'in their own universe'? I'd say it's The Lore which holds the 'real' marines performing outstanding actions and being a million super beings in an Imperium of millions of worlds, a tiny bastion of superbeings. Calgar is supposed to have held back a full waaagh of orks at some gate or other single handed, try that on the battlefield and I guarantee I can swamp him with a few mobs of grots, hardly the hero's death...

If marines died to lasguns and massed grots and dangerous terrain as easily as they do on the table, the million marines would go extinct in a few decades of the 40k universe's basic health and safety risks.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Calgar is supposed to have held back a full waaagh of orks at some gate or other single handed, try that on the battlefield and I guarantee I can swamp him with a few mobs of grots, hardly the hero's death...

I can't be the only one who now wants to see in next marine codex a fluff piece where Marneus Calgar is killed by grots.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Whilst it keeps it's tongue firmly in it's cheek and is disclaimer ridden as a fun article (- we could do with more of this sort of thing again GW), it's about making the marines on the tabletop reflect the marines in The Lore, that included background written in the codices as well as novels. The question should be which is more 'real'? The rules that are supposed to bring about a 'fair game' on the tabletop or the books about marines 'in their own universe'? I'd say it's The Lore which holds the 'real' marines performing outstanding actions and being a million super beings in an Imperium of millions of worlds, a tiny bastion of superbeings. Calgar is supposed to have held back a full waaagh of orks at some gate or other single handed, try that on the battlefield and I guarantee I can swamp him with a few mobs of grots, hardly the hero's death...

Wait, so you are saying that legends, propaganda, myths and exceptional one-offs are "more real" than general and thus less biased descriptions of the properties of their equipment or their physiology?

Okay, we'll just have to disagree there. But I will point out that each and every army has these legends and myths, and I don't actually see the setting "working" if they were all real.
And let's not even get into the lack of consistency between the novels, where the very same limitations apply. In one book you have Space Marines be the invincible protagonists who hold back an invasion with a dozen people, and in the next you've got Gaunt's Ghosts zapping CSMs by the dozen with their lasguns... (In the end, it's up to you which interpretation you prefer - but I thought we'd be discussing GW material?)

MeanGreenStompa wrote:If marines died to lasguns and massed grots and dangerous terrain as easily as they do on the table, the million marines would go extinct in a few decades of the 40k universe's basic health and safety risks.

Not at all. It's just that the Marines don't tend to fight the kind of battles we see in the standard tabletop (two armies meet head-on like it's 1540), but rather deploy in a manner more suitable to their strengths. Deepstriking into unexpected places with overwhelming force, driving terror into the hearts of the Emperor's foes and watching as the enemy's morale dwindles and their ranks break.
I've never played Epic 40k, but from how its rules were explained to me here on dakka, that game might be a better representation as it grants a Marine player more options regarding deployment and tactics.
That said, the fate of the Celestial Lions (GW fluff) is an excellent example on how an entire Chapter can get wiped out just because they were handed faulty recon. It's not that impossible to kill a Space Marine - you just have to apply the right amount of pressure. Like Colonel Straken who strangled a CSM Lord in Codex Planetstrike.

I don't even see where the idea that lasguns shouldn't kill Marines originates from. The tabletop rules were there first and the background was crafted around them. If GW really thought that Marines should be impervious to lasguns, they'd be so in the TT as well.

PS: Great thread in the link, by the way. Those are some awesome conversions!

@Crimson great pic, man...I mean I'm really glad how you showed what is proportional and what isn't...


P.S. Only Dorn has that big head (shown on pic 2:-)

I remember the one story where Kharn grew for every skull he took in battle. I'd have to imagine he's pretty big by now, but nowhere near the size of a standard plague marine.

 Lynata wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Whilst it keeps it's tongue firmly in it's cheek and is disclaimer ridden as a fun article (- we could do with more of this sort of thing again GW), it's about making the marines on the tabletop reflect the marines in The Lore, that included background written in the codices as well as novels. The question should be which is more 'real'? The rules that are supposed to bring about a 'fair game' on the tabletop or the books about marines 'in their own universe'? I'd say it's The Lore which holds the 'real' marines performing outstanding actions and being a million super beings in an Imperium of millions of worlds, a tiny bastion of superbeings. Calgar is supposed to have held back a full waaagh of orks at some gate or other single handed, try that on the battlefield and I guarantee I can swamp him with a few mobs of grots, hardly the hero's death...

Wait, so you are saying that legends, propaganda, myths and exceptional one-offs are "more real" than general and thus less biased descriptions of the properties of their equipment or their physiology?

Okay, we'll just have to disagree there. But I will point out that each and every army has these legends and myths, and I don't actually see the setting "working" if they were all real.
And let's not even get into the lack of consistency between the novels, where the very same limitations apply. In one book you have Space Marines be the invincible protagonists who hold back an invasion with a dozen people, and in the next you've got Gaunt's Ghosts zapping CSMs by the dozen with their lasguns... (In the end, it's up to you which interpretation you prefer - but I thought we'd be discussing GW material?)

The novels are often set 'as is' in terms of describing what is occurring. Helsreach is a 'realtime' description of the battles, not an epic recounting around the campfire. There is certainly inconsistancy between the novels, there is a great deal of inconsistancy between editions of the rules. Which is accurate? The powersword cutting armor like tissuepaper or the powersword not cutting armor like tissuepaper? If it's the second, was it true of your idea of how it all works prior to 6th edition? I'm entirely certain that the tabletop game is an abstract of the 40k universe's 'reality' and that the novels and background Lore are recounting it's 'reality', it is far more like a high fantasy setting rather than a realistic scifi after all. Or do you really believe that a pistol shoots a shorter distance than the length of a rhino tank??
WHFB used to state this very clearly in that units represented a ratio of 1 model representing 10 'real' warriors. Ranges and other rule mechanics are on the table to represent a playable game rather than how the game designers imagine that fictional reality operates.

Does the Imperium of Man use standard of Metric? Maybe that is causing some of the confusion with conflicting reports about the size of Space Marines?

 Lynata wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Calgar is supposed to have held back a full waaagh of orks at some gate or other single handed, try that on the battlefield and I guarantee I can swamp him with a few mobs of grots, hardly the hero's death...

Wait, so you are saying that legends, propaganda, myths and exceptional one-offs are "more real" than general and thus less biased descriptions of the properties of their equipment or their physiology? I will point out that each and every army has these legends and myths, and I don't actually see the setting "working" if they were all real.

You don't have to go further than real wars and real soldiers to get into the legends and myths territory a few years after it happened. And when it comes to war propaganda they might publish the legendary version to raise morale during the war too. Lone soldiers single-handedly holding off a large enemy force for hours, small groups bravely defending a choke point for days, a company pulling off the supposedly impossible assault. All these things happen, and it becomes legendary because we don't remember all those who failed.

In a Grimdark future with only war there's a legend made every day (and a thousand failures we don't mention).

MeanGreenStompa wrote:The novels are often set 'as is' in terms of describing what is occurring.

Yet apparently this still does not make them 'more real':

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."
- Marc Gascoigne on Black Library novels

Also see this thread where Aaron Dembski-Bowden - a fairly renowned novel writer himself by now - discusses the issue on dakka.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Ranges and other rule mechanics are on the table to represent a playable game rather than how the game designers imagine that fictional reality operates.

There is a difference between something being an abstraction and something being a contradiction, however. The TT rules - and yes, I do think that all in all they have been far more consistent than the protagonist-dependent storytelling of the novels - should not be looked at for detail, but they give a very good approximation of what is supposed to be close to or better/worse than something else, and who can be killed by what.
You also conveniently neglect that there is Codex fluff supporting the rules, at least the part which I have been discussing here.

Honestly, if you want to support your argument based on novels, I'm fairly sure I can find one where Marines die like flies to lasgun fire, just because they happen to be the antagonists.

I'm not saying that your interpretation is "wrong" (as this is not how the franchise works), but you at least need to realise on what basis you are debating here. You cannot even go and say "the novels", you'd need to find specific ones just because each and every author writing for 40k has his or her own idea on how something works, and they are granted sufficient artistic licence to create the contradictions we are used to by now. If you are looking for consistency between the novels, I would think you are going to be sorely disappointed, at least once you begin to look deeper into the details.

"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
- Andy Hoare

I see, so you're saying if I've read Dan Abnett stating that marines are 10ft tall, there's no absolute that binds him to any 'subjective construct' that they are shorter, nor to that mysterious earlier writer who says the Grey Knights are broader and shorter than the other marines. So all this stuff about tiny 7ft marines can be treated as someone else cherrypicking their version of 'the truth''...

So, I was right after all it seems, to state that what I have read about, that a marine stands at 10 feet, is valid. It's interesting that what I've said was treated as untrue but that the counter argument is 'it's all untrue and everything is also real'... I'll take that and bid you a good night.

This thread is disgusting in its ignorance.
Marines are 11ft tall.
Space wolves are 12ft tall.
Grey Knights are 14ft tall (Due to having the Emperor's gene-seed and he was 28ft tall)

No, space wolves are not larger than other space marines.

Only their egos are bigger.

It's not an easy thing to fit an ego the size of a planet into a head the size of a watermelon. To make it fit into their heads, some sacrifices had to be made. The brain was trimmed of excess tissue - since all it needed to do was allow the wolfy mcwolfy to scream "for the wolf time", "more beer", "that's it, they're all going to die." and "where's the beer?" and to have basic hand-eye co-ordination.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I see, so you're saying if I've read Dan Abnett stating that marines are 10ft tall, there's no absolute that binds him to any 'subjective construct' that they are shorter, nor to that mysterious earlier writer who says the Grey Knights are broader and shorter than the other marines. So all this stuff about tiny 7ft marines can be treated as someone else cherrypicking their version of 'the truth''...
So, I was right after all it seems, to state that what I have read about, that a marine stands at 10 feet, is valid. It's interesting that what I've said was treated as untrue but that the counter argument is 'it's all untrue and everything is also real'... I'll take that and bid you a good night.

We were discussing the height of Space Marines in different sources - and acknowledged very early that different sources also means different heights. I've made my position clear in this post on the first page of the thread, and I think I have said at least two or three times how it's a "matter of interpretation" throughout the thread.

So, yes, in a way we are all cherrypicking, and you are quite at liberty to retain your preferred opinion, of course. I guess this may have gotten lost in the last couple posts as I thought we would be discussing "GW vs other fluff".
I can get a bit too passionate on the subject, and I do apologise for possibly having worded the last couple posts a bit too pushy.


Also, I approve of purplefood's clarification.

Well they do have larger teeth...i mean fangs

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

So, I was right after all it seems, to state that what I have read about, that a marine stands at 10 feet, is valid. It's interesting that what I've said was treated as untrue but that the counter argument is 'it's all untrue and everything is also real'... I'll take that and bid you a good night.

Perhaps - it think it would be helpful and maybe avoid some arguments /confusion if you were a bit more certain on the sources of the info so they can be checked and discussed. Someone will normally have access to the appropriate material if you don't anymore and then it can be quoted in context.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

So, I was right after all it seems, to state that what I have read about, that a marine stands at 10 feet, is valid. It's interesting that what I've said was treated as untrue but that the counter argument is 'it's all untrue and everything is also real'... I'll take that and bid you a good night.

Perhaps - it think it would be helpful and maybe avoid some arguments /confusion if you were a bit more certain on the sources of the info so they can be checked and discussed. Someone will normally have access to the appropriate material if you don't anymore and then it can be quoted in context.

It was about 20 years ago, I'm afraid I can't remember the source, but I am certain of the excerpt I read.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

So, I was right after all it seems, to state that what I have read about, that a marine stands at 10 feet, is valid. It's interesting that what I've said was treated as untrue but that the counter argument is 'it's all untrue and everything is also real'... I'll take that and bid you a good night.

Perhaps - it think it would be helpful and maybe avoid some arguments /confusion if you were a bit more certain on the sources of the info so they can be checked and discussed. Someone will normally have access to the appropriate material if you don't anymore and then it can be quoted in context.

It was about 20 years ago, I'm afraid I can't remember the source, but I am certain of the excerpt I read.

Also we've debated this issue many, many times within the DCM forums. In fact, 10,000 of Alpharius's posts are dedicated to the heretical defense that there exists Space Marines of the nine feet, eleven inch variety. He is considered a fringe outsider on this issue.

To be fair, we're still not sure if the actual height measurements are ten feet, eleven feet, eleven feet one inch, 3.42 meters, or twelve feet and above. Many sources contradict one another and many, many authors and published sources probably have typos and measurement errors when they convert from metric to American.

Suffice to say, I'm of the "Flex-Ten" crowd-that SM heights can and do vary but do not go below ten feet.

I know for a fact GK are 14 feet tall exactly.
None of them are taller or shorter.
They are all that height exactly.

 WarOne wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

So, I was right after all it seems, to state that what I have read about, that a marine stands at 10 feet, is valid. It's interesting that what I've said was treated as untrue but that the counter argument is 'it's all untrue and everything is also real'... I'll take that and bid you a good night.

Perhaps - it think it would be helpful and maybe avoid some arguments /confusion if you were a bit more certain on the sources of the info so they can be checked and discussed. Someone will normally have access to the appropriate material if you don't anymore and then it can be quoted in context.

It was about 20 years ago, I'm afraid I can't remember the source, but I am certain of the excerpt I read.

Also we've debated this issue many, many times within the DCM forums. In fact, 10,000 of Alpharius's posts are dedicated to the heretical defense that there exists Space Marines of the nine feet, eleven inch variety. He is considered a fringe outsider on this issue.

To be fair, we're still not sure if the actual height measurements are ten feet, eleven feet, eleven feet one inch, 3.42 meters, or twelve feet and above. Many sources contradict one another and many, many authors and published sources probably have typos and measurement errors when they convert from metric to American.

Suffice to say, I'm of the "Flex-Ten" crowd-that SM heights can and do vary but do not go below ten feet.

It's clear as day that they are 7 feet. Read the Chaos Space Marine codex. Where does it say they are 10+ feet? Show me a rulebook, codex or White Dwarf article that states they are 10+ feet.

 Crimson wrote:


Ten feet on the other hand is just ludicrous. Best defence against these marines would be to build human sized corridors and they cannot enter.

Too small. Also, we know that the Space Marine models aren't to scale. They keep making the IG models too large.

 Gargantuan wrote:

It's clear as day that they are 7 feet. Read the Chaos Space Marine codex.

We aren't discussing chaos marines!

There are CSMs that do exceed normal height requirements.

Look at the game Space Marines and play to the end boss who becomes very big compared to a typical, ten foot tall Space Marine.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:

It's clear as day that they are 7 feet. Read the Chaos Space Marine codex.

We aren't discussing chaos marines!

The warp has a dramatic effect time and spacial distortion.

Look at Magnus. He can become as tall as an Eldar Titan at a whim. On Space Marines that can't control the warp, they are left to the fickle whims of the chaos gods. Some might wake up one morning and find themselves shrunken from their 12' stature to only 7'!

I give up. Marines are 50 feet titans that play football with Warhound titans and eat moons and lesser planets for breakfast

 kronk wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Gargantuan wrote:

It's clear as day that they are 7 feet. Read the Chaos Space Marine codex.

We aren't discussing chaos marines!

The warp has a dramatic effect time and spacial distortion.

Look at Magnus. He can become as tall as an Eldar Titan at a whim. On Space Marines that can't control the warp, they are left to the fickle whims of the chaos gods. Some might wake up one morning and find themselves shrunken from their 12' stature to only 7'!

Well, if you want to get technical, there is a mutation in Realm of Chaos called (I think) Tiny (or diminutive mebbe) which could mean chaos marines at 7" !!! and one called Enormous (or giant mebbe) which could give you 20ft marines!

I think that's the new fluff about Demurig.

 Gargantuan wrote:
I give up. Marines are 50 feet titans that play football with Warhound titans and eat moons and lesser planets for breakfast

That's just crazy talk! There isn't a cereal bowl in the universe big enough to serve a moon in!

 kronk wrote:
That's just crazy talk! There isn't a cereal bowl in the universe big enough to serve a moon in!

Yet...

We all know GW plans on releasing a giant bowl made of finecast. Here's the best part, it'll be a giant air bubble that creates the bowl. But Mankind will lose that technology about 15,000 years in to the future.

 kronk wrote:

Too small. Also, we know that the Space Marine models aren't to scale. They keep making the IG models too large.

Are you trolling me? The models may not be perfectly to scale but they're not that far off. Do you really think that Space Marines are larger Than IG Sentinels, and their regular bolters are size of IG heavy bolters?

 Crimson wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Too small. Also, we know that the Space Marine models aren't to scale. They keep making the IG models too large.

Are you trolling me? The models may not be perfectly to scale but they're not that far off. Do you really think that Space Marines are larger Than IG Sentinels, and their regular bolters are size of IG heavy bolters?

Not far off?

Take a look at any 40k vehicle. They are all far too small by a good degree. The rhino, for example. Take a look at that model and then take a look at it's transport capacity and then ponder where the engine, driver and systems all fit.

You are peeing into the wind if you start arguing that the scales for the various ranges are accurate. If power armor marines took their armor off, they'd be tiny compared to a catachan or even a cadian. Model range is a poor defense for this 'tiny marine' defense.

The scale is not off by 40% or more. The 'heroic' proportions of models make direct comparisons difficult, but 40K vehicles are not actually that small. FW books say that Rhino is 6.6 metres long, and that's about the length you get if you assume it is scaled to the infantry models (so at least FW seems to believe that models are to scale.). Compared to real world tanks, that is actually pretty big. Sure, fitting ten power armoured marines would still be difficult. I however have seen ten old marines modelled in old rhino, so it might be possible to model current ones similarly as well. Or maybe not, I'm not going to try.

In any case, it is one thing to say that scale is slightly muddy and marines should be a bit larger when compared to IG, and quite another to assume that a marine is a size of an IG sentinel. Do you think that marine bolters are size of IG heavy bolters?

Crimson wrote:Do you think that marine bolters are size of IG heavy bolters?

I have some people seen make that argument ... fortunately not here.
In some cases that may have just been a confusion of the "model 998 bolter" with assuming it shoots "caliber .998 ammunition", which would be rather close to the heavy bolter's cal 1.00.

This thread causes the God-Emperor to weep.

Yeah...
The GK are clearly bigger than most people think. It's really under-represented in the fluff.

 Psienesis wrote:
This thread causes the God-Emperor to weep.

Indeed. It will however take weeks until the tears hit the ground because he is so tall.

I'd like to see someone actually get around to proving the existence of ten foot Space Marines.

Lol at the cop-out "Oh, we aren't talking about Chaos Space Marines", phucking pathetic.

Deathwatch RPG? States they are sevenish feet. Jes Goodwin? Sevenish feet. Chaos Marines codex? Sevenish feet.

Hell, even Dan Abnett's numbers were actually 2.5 meters IIRC. Aka, just a little over eight feet.

Seriously, Lion El'Jonson, a fething Primarch, is stated to be over three meters (Ten feet) tall in Descent of Angels, and he's a fairly unremarkable Primarch in stature.

If Marines were ten feet, just imagine how large Magnus the Red must be! Why, he would have to be like, 20 feet tall!

 Crimson wrote:
The models may not be perfectly to scale but they're not that far off.

Fit 16 space marines in power armor inside a Land Raider Crusader. It would have to be Bane Blade sized to do it.

Some catachans are large than space marines.

Do not tell me "not that far off."

 Void__Dragon wrote:

If Marines were ten feet, just imagine how large Magnus the Red must be! Why, he would have to be like, 20 feet tall!

It would be really useful and productive if you didn't resort to sarcasm and rudeness when debating this. If you're frustrated with 'certain posters' here, please just take the moral high ground.

Bringing Chaos Marines to the table wasn't productive, they are going to be all sorts of shapes and sizes.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'd like to see someone actually get around to proving the existence of ten foot Space Marines.

Lol at the cop-out "Oh, we aren't talking about Chaos Space Marines", phucking pathetic.

Deathwatch RPG? States they are sevenish feet. Jes Goodwin? Sevenish feet. Chaos Marines codex? Sevenish feet.

Hell, even Dan Abnett's numbers were actually 2.5 meters IIRC. Aka, just a little over eight feet.

Seriously, Lion El'Jonson, a fething Primarch, is stated to be over three meters (Ten feet) tall in Descent of Angels, and he's a fairly unremarkable Primarch in stature.

If Marines were ten feet, just imagine how large Magnus the Red must be! Why, he would have to be like, 20 feet tall!

Seems larger than that actually, but we all know he can change his size via the warpz

 Void__Dragon wrote:


If Marines were ten feet, just imagine how large Magnus the Red must be! Why, he would have to be like, 20 feet tall!

Not a fair comparison. Per Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, and Battle of the Fang, Magnus can grow and shrink to colossal sizes.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'd like to see someone actually get around to proving the existence of ten foot Space Marines.

Lol at the cop-out "Oh, we aren't talking about Chaos Space Marines", phucking pathetic.

Deathwatch RPG? States they are sevenish feet. Jes Goodwin? Sevenish feet. Chaos Marines codex? Sevenish feet.

Hell, even Dan Abnett's numbers were actually 2.5 meters IIRC. Aka, just a little over eight feet.

Seriously, Lion El'Jonson, a fething Primarch, is stated to be over three meters (Ten feet) tall in Descent of Angels, and he's a fairly unremarkable Primarch in stature.

If Marines were ten feet, just imagine how large Magnus the Red must be! Why, he would have to be like, 20 feet tall!

Seems larger than that actually, but we all know he can change his size via the warpz

Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

That guy is standing on something, his proportions do not suggest that he is any larger than his peers. Unless he has freakishly long legs.

Also. He is a bit more than a head height above the others. Do you think space marines have over three feet tall heads? This is perfect example of spouting numbers randomly, without stopping to think what they actually mean.

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

That guy is standing on something, his proportions do not suggest that he is any larger than his peers. Unless he has freakishly long legs.

He's a space marine.
Of course he has freakishly long legs.
He is a freak!

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

That guy is standing on something, his proportions do not suggest that he is any larger than his peers. Unless he has freakishly long legs.

Also. He is a bit more than a head height above the others. Do you think space marines have over three feet tall heads? This is perfect example of spouting numbers randomly, without stopping to think what they actually mean.

Why wouldn't he have a 3 foot tall head... mine is roughly 8 to 10 inches from chin to top... I'm 5 foot 9...

So the guy just keeps a box that he moves around in the front ranks of a giant group of space marines? Or does he only put the box down when it is picture time?

And you call us random?

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

That guy is standing on something, his proportions do not suggest that he is any larger than his peers. Unless he has freakishly long legs.

Also. He is a bit more than a head height above the others. Do you think space marines have over three feet tall heads? This is perfect example of spouting numbers randomly, without stopping to think what they actually mean.

Alright then, take a look at the marine in front of him. That marine is narrower at the shoulder than 'Ahriman'. He is larger and wider than the marine in the foreground. Or are you going to claim that he's just wider but stood on an orange box or that he's 'just a bit husky'...?!?

 Alfndrate wrote:


Why wouldn't he have a 3 foot tall head... mine is roughly 8 to 10 inches from chin to top... I'm 5 foot 9...

Because a person with similar proportions as you with 3 foot head would be about 21 feet tall...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Alright then, take a look at the marine in front of him. That marine is narrower at the shoulder than 'Ahriman'. He is larger and wider than the marine in the foreground.

No he isn't.



The green lines are of the same length.

Even though his shoulders are not wider, Ahriman might be a tiny bit bulkier, but he would still look bizarre if he was that much taller with those upper body proportions.

Unless of course...

You certain about that?

Robert Wadlow, world record holder for tallest man was just south of 9 feet tall, his father is 2 inches taller than I am. Take a look at this issue:


His face looks roughly double the size...

 Alfndrate wrote:
You certain about that?

Do the math. You're about 175cm tall and your head is about 25cm tall. 175/25=7. Your head is one seventh of your height (perfectly normal proportions.) Thus with a three foot tall head: 3x7=21.

His face looks roughly double the size...

His head is not even third larger than his father's. Three foot tall head is about three and half times the height of your head.

It has gone up and down at different stages. I have some old WDs from between 90 and 120 stashed away in a cupboard somewhere and many many more in my parents loft.

I think some of the confusion comes from the fact that at least half the stuff MGS is thinking of was not in W40k fluff at all, but in Epic articles in WD. Lost and the Damned was being previewed in WD around the same time as a lot of the Epic fluff, and there may have been a few bits and pieces in the LatD previews, plus I remember some articles about Terminator armour which specifically referred to Grey Knights, and that might have been where it had that bit of fluff about the Grey Knights came from.

I remember back when I was a kid finding a size comparison diagram of titans, knights and marines, and the sizes quoted for the titans meant that if you scaled down it meant that marines were about 12-14 feet tall, which was ludicrous and also contradicted the fluff, which was around 10ft.

 Crimson wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


Alright then, take a look at the marine in front of him. That marine is narrower at the shoulder than 'Ahriman'. He is larger and wider than the marine in the foreground.

No he isn't.



The green lines are of the same length.

Even though his shoulders are not wider, Ahriman might be a tiny bit bulkier, but he would still look bizarre if he was that much taller with those upper body proportions.

So, ignoring the fact your green line on ahriman goes from a wide point on the right shoulder to the narrow tapering top of the left shoulder, you're telling me they are the same width when one is clearly a distance behind the other one and a good deal taller than the front marine?!?

If we take your line drawings to heart, then ahriman is actually a good measure narrower than the much closer regular sized marine.

That makes no sense at all! Are you being serious?!?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahriman's left shoulder is obscured by the angle and he's much wider and at least 3 feet taller than the little fellow in the front.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what, I've been insulted, mocked and doubted by youngsters who seem to think because they read something by some Johnny come lately, hired in on the YTS to write some new fangled book and something in the last codex officially makes all marines tiny now, despite some of the best writers for the black library saying otherwise and having it approved by the GW high ups, well now if you want your genetically engineered supermen to be midgets, go ahead and have them.

7 feet indeed, there will be plenty of regular humans reared on deathworlds or warrior cultures in the Imperium who are bigger than that, what will they do if they recruit them? Shoehorn them into the power armor? Ask them to slouch so they don't make the other supersoldiers upset?

Balderdash!!!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
It would be really useful and productive if you didn't resort to sarcasm and rudeness when debating this. If you're frustrated with 'certain posters' here, please just take the moral high ground.

Bringing Chaos Marines to the table wasn't productive, they are going to be all sorts of shapes and sizes.

It would be really useful and productive if you cited a source.

Point out the fluff that states that Chaos Marines are shorter than Space Marines.

Not that this matters, considering the page states that the Space Marines the Emperor created from the gene-seed of their Primarchs, aka normal Marines, are seven feet tall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:


Seems larger than that actually, but we all know he can change his size via the warpz

I guess Magnus also either has a lower body measuring a foot long, or walks around with his waist embedded into the earth?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
Not a fair comparison. Per Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, and Battle of the Fang, Magnus can grow and shrink to colossal sizes.

I'm pretty sure he just manipulates the perceptions of others to change his size in their minds, or it could be some weird Primarch-inherent trait, when using their full power, they appear larger and more "epic" to mortals, since Leman Russ had the same effect.

Either way, The First Heretic confirms that Magnus is still the largest of the Primarchs, as does every other source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Also worth noting from that image that the guy at the front (Ahriman?) is at least 4 feet higher than his peers.

We can't see his legs, and he'd be disproportionately long of leg were that the case.

Also, four feet? Lol. That is over half the other Marines's heights.

Also note the other Thousand Sons are standing in water. And even if Ahriman were exceptionally tall for a Marine, he is the exception, not the rule.

Actually I was suggesting that the image shows that Magnus was at least 20 feet tall, probably closer to 35 or 40. Magically enhanced yes, but he's still a big mofo.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:


So, ignoring the fact your green line on ahriman goes from a wide point on the right shoulder to the narrow tapering top of the left shoulder, you're telling me they are the same width when one is clearly a distance behind the other one and a good deal taller than the front marine?!?

The green line is longer than Ahriman on the widest part. It is just the width of the marine in the front dragged over Ahriman.

If we take your line drawings to heart, then ahriman is actually a good measure narrower than the much closer regular sized marine.

Yes, he is slightly narrower because he is farther back.

That makes no sense at all! Are you being serious?!?!

It makes perfect sense.

Ahriman's left shoulder is obscured by the angle and he's much wider and at least 3 feet taller than the little fellow in the front.

It is obscured less than the other guy's shoulder. And now it is only three feet. What happened to at least four?

In any case, I do not believe that the artist who made the picture gave the heights this much thought. He just placed Ahriman higher as he is an important character. I was just saying that the proportions of Ahriman's upper body do not suggest particularly gigantic size.

You know what, I've been insulted, mocked and doubted by youngsters who seem to think because they read something by some Johnny come lately, hired in on the YTS to write some new fangled book and something in the last codex officially makes all marines tiny now, despite some of the best writers for the black library saying otherwise and having it approved by the GW high ups, well now if you want your genetically engineered supermen to be midgets, go ahead and have them.

No one has insulted you. And why do you assume that people who disagree with you are youngsters? (And why would it matter?) If it is important to you, I started 40K during 2e, and have made some effort to familiarise myself with the older stuff. Furthermore, the seven feet figure have been pretty consistent in the main GW publications over the years. I am also pretty sure that most midgets are somewhat shorter than seven feet. Of course if you want your marines to be larger than Sentinels and carry heavy weapon sized bolters you are perfectly free to think that. Personally I find that kind of stuff silly.

7 feet indeed, there will be plenty of regular humans reared on deathworlds or warrior cultures in the Imperium who are bigger than that, what will they do if they recruit them? Shoehorn them into the power armor? Ask them to slouch so they don't make the other supersoldiers upset?

Why you assume that death worlders are huge? I am sure some might be seven feet tall, but there is no reason to think that this would be common. And there are some exceptionally large Marines such as Arjack Rockfist, so people who would grow really tall will become such exceptinally large marines. Also, it is possible that the Emperor's Finest do not have such fragile egos that they become upset if some odd person somewhere is taller than them.

Crimson wrote:Why you assume that death worlders are huge? I am sure some might be seven feet tall, but there is no reason to think that this would be common.

He has a point in that the Imperium is so huge and mutation/evolution of the native population so common that you'd probably find some humans remotely approaching Astartes physiology - but then again, who says they'd get recruited? If the end result truly ends up being a 10-12 feet monstrosity, then it doesn't fit into any of the standard template vehicles and is at a tactical disadvantage when faced with surroundings built for normal humans. In spite of the popular schpiel of certain Black Library authors, I do not believe that bigger is always better, so such a Chapter would simply not be created as the resources are better spent for the sort of Space Marines that can perform just as well as their battle brothers from other Chapters.

Of course that's just my interpretation, and with how the 40k franchise works I'd be willing to admit that the whole idea makes a neat reasoning behind anyone who wants to have his "Truescale" Space Marines to be bigger than GW's norm. At least it would be better than just dropping the studio fluff entirely, but that is just my personal preference speaking.

Its probably the result of the Deathworlders being "inspired" by the Harry Harrison Deathworld novels - where the inhabitants are noticable larger than mainstream humans?

@ MeanGreenStompa: Have to agree with Crimson - I have tried to be as reasonable as possible and merely asked for actual references so we could discuss them and their context - I started 40K with Rogue Trader (1st Ed) which I have still have and most things published since - sad but true .

Mr Morden wrote:Its probably the result of the Deathworlders being "inspired" by the Harry Harrison Deathworld novels - where the inhabitants are noticable larger than mainstream humans?

I don't even know those. But when I think of "Death World", then the first that comes to mind is ... Catachans!

Of course Death World can mean just about anything, including acid rain and a population of midgets living underground. In the end ... look at Ratlings and Ogryn, and one can see the possible range for human "evolution".

Indeed but if you read the books I would say they are definately inspirational for Catachan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathworld

Everything on the planet is predatory, and capable of killing an unwary human instantly. All large animals are strong enough to destroy small vehicles. All small animals have neurotoxic venom. All plants are carnivorous, even if only by default—their victims fertilize their soil. All microorganisms consume insufficiently protected tissue as quickly as acids. On top of this, all the aforementioned life evolves so quickly that even Kerk and his Pyrran crew have to be retrained upon their return from Cassylia in order to survive.

Because of this harsh environment, the settlers are engaged in a ceaseless struggle to survive, which—despite generations of acclimation and a training regime harsher than that of ancient Spartans—they are losing. Their numbers are less than when the planet was first colonized, and they are restricted to a single settlement. The world's very name is a reference to Pyrrhic victory, a success that comes at devastating cost to the victor

Damn. Sounds like Catachan, alright.

Why is it in the novels Logan is depicted as being a large hulk of a man by space wolf terms, yet if you stick his mini next to a standard space wolf terminator, you can see everything about him is smaller? (Including the shoulder pads).

Good ol' GW scale antics at work..

Jaeger wulf wrote:
Why is it in the novels Logan is depicted as being a large hulk of a man by space wolf terms, yet if you stick his mini next to a standard space wolf terminator, you can see everything about him is smaller? (Including the shoulder pads).

Good ol' GW scale antics at work..

How old is the model? It is probably similar size as the old terminators.

Some of those marines in the picture may have bionicially replaced legs, legs that are outfitted for only really tall regular humans, thus making themselves appear shorter than the much larger, eleven foot Ahrihman.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

You know what, I've been insulted, mocked and doubted by youngsters who seem to think because they read something by some Johnny come lately, hired in on the YTS to write some new fangled book and something in the last codex officially makes all marines tiny now, despite some of the best writers for the black library saying otherwise and having it approved by the GW high ups, well now if you want your genetically engineered supermen to be midgets, go ahead and have them.

7 feet indeed, there will be plenty of regular humans reared on deathworlds or warrior cultures in the Imperium who are bigger than that, what will they do if they recruit them? Shoehorn them into the power armor? Ask them to slouch so they don't make the other supersoldiers upset?

Balderdash!!!

I've been in the 40K hobby for... 25 years now? Almost 30? Space Marines have always been 7 to 8 feet tall, on average, with some being a bit shorter (6'6" or so) and some few being over 8 feet. We have had life-size plastic and foam rubber statues of Space Marines at cons, tournaments and other GW events that show them being between 7 and 8 feet tall. We have artwork released by GW showing them at the 8 foot mark (with the Marine's boots being at the 1 foot mark). While it's not unimaginable that some of these Feral Worlders might, after all the genetic implants and such, get to 9 or 10 feet in height, that's not an "average" of the Space Marines.

Black Library books aren't "approved" by the GW higher-ups against any sort of set-in-stone canon. If Dan Abnett wants to make his Space Marines of the Ixaniad Sector have pinky fingers "the size and shape of an Arbiter's truncheon", and call their Chapter Master the Primarch, that's his prerogative. He's under no requirement or compulsion to make his vision of the 40K setting fit with anyone else's. All a BL book has to do, really, is fit within the gist of the 40K setting, have the right grim-dark feel (even if it is taking it as satire, as the Ciaphas Cain series does) and be a (arguably) good, pulpy read.

Don't forget that many codices are written to be Imperium propaganda and therefore could be stretched in truths. Making space marines smaller than their natural height only makes their deeds sound all the more heroic. Alternatively, this could be propaganda spread by Alpha Legionnaires as a way to diminish in the eyes of Imperial citizens their stalwart champions, lowering their morale.

We will never know as GW does not have a concrete and discernable way they approach their lore. Nearly thirty years later, they still have not even named the final two legions, as if forgetting they had to make twenty and stopped at eighteen.

 WarOne wrote:
Don't forget that many codices are written to be Imperium propaganda and therefore could be stretched in truths. Making space marines smaller than their natural height only makes their deeds sound all the more heroic.

Yes... the texts where it says that they're seven feet tall and their armour is not impervious to lasguns it propaganda and stories where they're ten feet tall invincible giants is the true account. Sounds likely...

To each his own, but I really don't get this fascination with supersized marines.

 Crimson wrote:

 WarOne wrote:
Don't forget that many codices are written to be Imperium propaganda and therefore could be stretched in truths. Making space marines smaller than their natural height only makes their deeds sound all the more heroic.

Yes... the texts where it says that they're seven feet tall and their armour is not impervious to lasguns it propaganda and stories where they're ten feet tall invincible giants is the true account. Sounds likely...

To each his own, but I really don't get this fascination with supersized marines.

Are you implying this is a massive hoax orchestrated by DCMs to manipulate the rest of the forums to believe Space Marines are actually over ten feet tall rather than a more believable height of fifteen feet?

I most certainly won't go into the ten thousand posts on the DCM forums of Alpharius telling us he has inside knowledge of GWs actaul height for the average space marine nor the fact that DCMs get exclusive news from the company direct that the SM line of 28mm will be replaced by 40mm models and through lore changes proportionately increase the smaller heights accordingly. Oh and this is slated for 2016.

Of course since all of this is heresay, I would ignore any of the rationales mentioned above and just accept the minimal height of ten feet marines as fact than the more widely spread and far less believable eight feet some fringers claim to believe.

Exactly that!

Except 40mm is still only eight feet... They need to make the models two inches tall for ten feet!

I know Grey Knights are slightly shorter due to the huge gravity of titan.

 Crimson wrote:
Exactly that!

Except 40mm is still only eight feet... They need to make the models two inches tall for ten feet!

Except that all other models move to an 18mm base size reduction....

SentientFrog wrote:
I know Grey Knights are slightly shorter due to the huge gravity of titan.

Correct...they're about ten feet wide.

... and that, boys and girls, is what really happened to the Squats.

Can we please stop with the stupid "make space marines taller" meme now?

They are generally 7-8 ft tall.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Can we please stop with the stupid "make space marines taller" meme now?

They are generally 7-8 ft tall.

I agree. 7-8 seems right. Any taller would be impractical as they'd have trouble going through a lot of doors. Even in the imperium.

To be fair, the imperium builds doors for the sole purpose of having titans walk through them.

 d-usa wrote:
To be fair, the imperium builds doors for the sole purpose of having titans walk through them.

All doors in the imperium are titan sized?

 Skarwael wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
To be fair, the imperium builds doors for the sole purpose of having titans walk through them.

All doors in the imperium are titan sized?

No.

All doors in the Imperium have a machine spirit proclaiming the might of the Emperor every time you get in a 3 meter radius of them.

But sometimes they don't open automatically like they should and space marines bump into them. Then citizens put the videos on EmperorTube until the inquisition issues DMCA takedown requests.

 d-usa wrote:
But sometimes they don't open automatically like they should and space marines bump into them. Then citizens put the videos on EmperorTube until the inquisition issues DMCA takedown requests.

And you can then read that DMCA request on an external website!