So, as a relatively new BA player, I found out quickly just how bad our RAS got nailed in 6th.

I was at a loss on what to do with my army now that shooting was out in front and I had stuck to the whole DoA for fluff and for tactical reasons. When 6th rolled around, that all kind of went to hell.

So, here I am with an army that is mostly assault based in a shooting world. I was really stuck on what to do. Until I was looking at my codex and re-read Death Company. They weren't much of a staple in 5th due to Rage making them pants-on-head crazy, but now, that's all in the past. They're Relentless and Fearless, can carry Bolters and a plethora of CC and Pistol weapons, have FNP, FC and without jump packs, a squad of 10 kitted out comes in at about as much as a Land Raider. Best part? It's a troop choice.
"But they can't score!" You might say, and this is very true. I'm not saying forgo any scoring troops and roll in with Astorath and 90 DC. That just won't work (unless you table your opponent, which is possible.) But I am saying, in a world of shooting, these guys can cover that base AND also still are a viable assault unit even with Bolters due to their 2 base attacks and 2+ attacks on the charge because of Rage along with FC. They still lay the smack down.

Here's how I see them being used:
10 man squad, 2 powerfists, and Bolters, maybe infernus pistols if you have the points. Load them all up in a Stormraven with a Librarian Epistolary who has Divination and roll out. You have RAS on the board with some shooty units (Dev squads, and heck, even scouts to hold back-field objectives.)

What you use the Death Company for is 3 things: Line-breaker, objective denial and a psychological tool. Yes, they probably wont be out on the board until turn 2 at the earliest. But think about that for a moment. You have a decent fire base of scouts and devs (or tanks if you so choose, this is just my choice) shooting at anything across the board and your RAS hiding and waiting until the opportune moment to hit a weakened squad or take an objective. Your opponent at this point, has to come to you. Then your Raven flies on 36" and shoots something to hell and back (hopefully turn 2, but you never know). Here is where it get's interesting. You can fly on 36" and pseudo Deep-strike the Death Company in (it's no longer Skies of Blood according to the new rules, but the concept is the same.) Or you can keep them in the Raven and drop into skimmer-mode next turn and assault out of it next turn. Either way, you suddenly have a Bolter firing ball of anger that is pretty damn resilient. If you do the fly-in deep strike move, now your opponent is probably going to be scratching their head on what to do. They COULD keep walking towards you, which means that they're getting closer to your DC who can shred anything they charge AFTER they shoot it to bits. Or they can sit back and wait as you shoot at them, marching forward with your DC ready to crush anything you get in charge range of.

Now, if you go the other route, and keep the DC in the Raven to use as an assault vehicle, then you can do a number of things here too. You could go after a troop choice on a backfield objective and pretty much guarantee you're going to kill it or at LEAST deny it the point. You also can pretty much guarantee a line-breaker point if they dive and stay in combat with someone. You could also use it to back up a failing RAS. They're still your scoring troops, and at the end of the day, those points are what matter (5 out of 6 times,anyway.) Saving that troop choice may be all you need to win the game.

As a psychological tool, DC are a powerful wake up call. They need to be killed or they are going to kill something, plain and simple. Your opponent is going to need to focus a lot of fire power to bring them down too, which means the rest of your army ISN'T getting shot at. If your opponent does ignore them, then they pay the price of watching whatever you decide to go after with your DC die really fast.

In short, DC are, in my opinion, going to be a huge staple in the future of BA armies, and not just because of their buff to Rage, but also because they can fill a shooty roll in an assaulty army and still be threat in CC.

Just my two cents on the matter.

Disagree? Agree? Comments? Anything you think I missed?

Scrabblez

Disagree. Good players can handle the DC fairly easily. Their primary problems are that they don't suck up shots any better than the standard BA ASM and they lack efficient delivery options.

The other problem with this plan is that the stormraven is a terrible transport. It must start in reserve, and therefore everything on it is in reserve. Nothing on board a stormraven can assault till turn 3 at the soonest. If you roll a one or a two for reserves, you are looking at turn 4. That's way too late. Also, the turn it arrives, it will likely be shot down if its carrying anything. Say goodbye to your DC. How you ask? A stormraven with DC is worth shooting an entire list at. Even if nothing else dies that turn, killing that thing and instagibbing everything on board is well worth it. AV 12 HP 3 is too fragile to be entrusted with expensive marines.

Good players don't ignore DC, they just neutralize them in some way. I mean it's not like they weren't going to be shooting at your army anyway, and its not like the BA have a fantastic model count. The spoiling assault is also very, very bad for the DC, since all their buffs trigger upon assaulting.

DC are essentially elites, and they are competing for points in my army as such. My hybrid mech lists only use SP elites, and my drop/jumper lists use sternguard/fragnought over these guys every time. Why? Because they have maximum impact *the turn they come down*, not in future turns, trying to get an assault off. I'd even bring sanguinary guards before these guys, because I think they are a better value and can become scoring with Dante.

In general, the BA are a poor list in 6th, due to death of a 100 little nerfs. I don't think anyone has the magic formula, because there isn't one. The BA codex just doesn't work well in 6th.

There is growing evidence that the best way to rack up wins is to field 50-60 scoring FNP troops. This would not work in my meta, but is also very bland and many players don't have 50-60 jump marines. So I don't know honestly. Except that the BA kinda suck now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you really, really want to go DC, use a LR. Accept no substitutes. It protects them and let's the assault turn 1 if necessary.

Drop Pods.

Drop Pod Assault.

Now Deploy 6" from said drop pod.

Making plasma pistols and especially inferneous pistols deadly.

Finally, if you don't have a better option for your army, a Reclusiarch HQ turns the DC into murderous beatsticks.

If you're going to drop in and shoot, use the sternguard with Corbulo support.

In 95% of cases, a divination libby rocks the socks off a reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch, along with Tycho are the only other "fieldable" HQs, though.

The DC don't need a reclusiarch to kill everything they touch on the assault. They already do that. The BA need the versatility of the divination libby.

Martel732 wrote:If you're going to drop in and shoot, use the sternguard with Corbulo support.

In 95% of cases, a divination libby rocks the socks off a reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch, along with Tycho are the only other "fieldable" HQs, though.

The DC don't need a reclusiarch to kill everything they touch on the assault. They already do that. The BA need the versatility of the divination libby.

Razerous wrote:Drop Pods.

Drop Pod Assault.

Now Deploy 6" from said drop pod.

Making plasma pistols and especially inferneous pistols deadly.

Finally, if you don't have a better option for your army, a Reclusiarch HQ turns the DC into murderous beatsticks.

Martel732 wrote:If you're going to drop in and shoot, use the sternguard with Corbulo support.

In 95% of cases, a divination libby rocks the socks off a reclusiarch. The Reclusiarch, along with Tycho are the only other "fieldable" HQs, though.

The DC don't need a reclusiarch to kill everything they touch on the assault. They already do that. The BA need the versatility of the divination libby.

A combination of what these guys are saying. Drop pod in some DC with a Libby. I know a chaplain or reclusiarch seems like the obvious choice, but the librarian just gives so many more options. For one, don't handcuff the librarian with only taking the divination tree. If you're facing a heavy mech list, codex powers such as Blood Lance can be pretty effective when you're picking the location to start the 4D6" inch line of vehicular destruction. Dropping in a Fragnought in the same area? Shield of Sanguinius may help him stick around a bit longer... As Martel pointed out, DC are already very killy in CC without help of re-rolls. I'd rather finish off my opponent's unit is his turn rather than get shot up in it.

We can discuss the DC all we like, but I have only lost one mirror match where my opponent had DC. Every other time, I have been able to negate them in some way.

If by drop pod, I move mobile fire over and shoot them up and then spoiling assault with whatever is handy.

If by LR, I pop with MM attack bikes and then let them languish on foot to be killed in whatever way I see fit.

If by stormraven. Well, that's the most fun, because when it pops and they all instagib, my opponent just kinda deflates. It's even better when a melta does it, because they are like "my ceramite!". Melta is still ST8 chump, and our overpriced flier is only AV 12. Plus, I can be lazy and not get as close as I normally would.

The DC "deathstar" is one of the most popular BA traps around. They're not really even a good deathstar, because their defenses aren't up to that level. They really should reprint the current BA codex as Codex: Trap Units that Look Awesome, but Disappoint in 6th Edition. But that would probably hurt sales.

Martel732 wrote:
Codex: Trap

Humour aside, I agree. DC are a major trap unit. They only real way to make them function is DP and bolters, although the same effect can be achieved by cheaper (read tacs or assault marines), or more efficacious units (read sternguard).
As a person who regularly plays against BA, avoid DC. They soak up points, but don't soak up fire-power.

LR deployment CAN work, but usually only if your opponent jelloheads the fight. For what the DC pay for jump packs, LR is the smart way to get a long charge range.

Martel732 wrote:
LR deployment CAN work, but usually only if your opponent jelloheads the fight. For what the DC pay for jump packs, LR is the smart way to get a long charge range.

I suppose...it's probably impossible to quantify, but for those 250pts spent on a Land Raider, you could probably take another squad with a drop pod. I wonder whether 2 squads could last longer than 1 squad in a LR. The damage potential of two squads is obviously higher, but a LR is a great way to draw your opponent's anti-tank fire away from more vulnerable things.

Still, I feel DC shares that common problem of all strong CC units. Wiping out its target in one turn. It's just not viable to do that, it's silly that you are punished for winning an assault, but it's still what happens.

Your prize for doing too well: every rapid fire weapon to the face. And heavy weapon. And assault weapon. You get the idea.

We don't need to debate how to make a sub-optimal choice the least sub-optimal. We'll call the DC hit or miss, but mostly miss if your opponent knows how to move his stuff around.

Yeah, I guess I'm late to the party, but my experience with DC is that 1) when they get the the enemy intact, with Prescience, they will kill whatever they charge. 2) If they are in a Stormraven and that Raven gets shot down, you just lost 1/3 of your army's points. 3) When they are in a dop pod, they will not reach the enemy intact. 4) I, personally, don't like to use Land Raiders as I don't think they add enough power for their points cost.

Therefore, if you believe your opponents won't bring much or any anti-air, then they are fools, in all likelihood, but in that scenario, go ahead and put them in a Raven and let them roll up whoever they touch. Waiting until turn 3-4 won't necessarily cripple your army. Still, it's a big cost and I'm keeping away from these dudes now days.

The Reclusiarch and Librarian both can enhance DC and make them hit extra hard, but point for point, both are inefficient compared to just adding more DC. They also put you in the position of throwing a 3rd VP (counting the DC & their transport) into the enemy’s teeth in a Purge the Alien mission, and often throwing away your warlord.

As tempting as re-rolls are for DC, you’re better off taking 2 extra guys with power axes instead. For 70pts you get 10 more WS5 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge, or 6 more when the enemy charges you. That gives you a substantially better return on investment than throwing a 100-130 (or possibly even more if you took terminator armor or something) IC into the squad. If you’re really worried about killing walkers or land raiders, put a couple of fists in the squad, either instead of or in addition to the axes.

A better place for your near-obligatory Divination Librarian Warlord is in your backfield, staying alive and enhancing your primary shooty units.

The best delivery system will depend on your local environment and opponents.

Jump packs are overpriced and should not be taken.

A Drop Pod is quite a good one. Really the only time it’s NOT great is when you expect to regularly face GK using Strike Squads or Interceptors. But those are really a minority of GK armies, and Warp Quake still doesn’t protect them if you go first. In general the pod guarantees the DC’s arrival on turn 1, it allows you to spread out and avoid plasma/blast annihilation while still shooting your bolters (or infernus pistols if you really want the DC to be dual-role on the drop), and it’s cheap as chips. It does tend to give up First Blood fairly often though, so it’s best to make sure you have good shooting support in your army to try to get First Blood yourself.

Land Raiders or Storm Ravens are more dependent on what kind of opponents you expect to see, and what other roles you need filled in your army. Both are good delivery options. The LR starts on the table, tends to bounce more different enemy weapons, and acts as a LOS blocker to shield your other units. The Storm Raven has to start in Reserve, but it gives you anti-aircraft firepower. Many armies can shoot it down, but you can eliminate the danger to your DC by dropping them immediately on arrival. A 36” move up the table and dropped out the back is pretty good. You do scatter and will die on a mishap, but with the flexibility of that 36” flyer move from anywhere along the table edge, you can almost always find a safe drop zone, and get right in the enemy’s face even if they’re trying to hang back. Of course, you do land bunched up, so you need to watch out for low-AP blasts or Run to spread out when you land, forgoing your shots that turn.


If you’re investing points in multiple flyers, I strongly recommend the Aegis with Comm Relay, for Reserve re-rolls. It makes them extremely reliable.

 Mannahnin wrote:
A better place for your near-obligatory Divination Librarian Warlord is in your backfield, staying alive and enhancing your primary shooty units.

Okay, I like this advice, its different to my original thinking.

But what kind of HQ (or Why is the Div Librarian mandatory?) and what kind of BA shooty units work well with it.

I don't put my divination libby with a shooty squad. I put them with ASM and add a priest for three ICs with power axes. Deny challenges, you still get two ICs with axes. The divination buffs on ASM are great. Forget the reroll primaris power. You can fall back to that, but the 4++ and the counter attack/full BS on overwatch powers are where its at. Also, ignoring cover with bolt pistols and meltaguns can be fantastic as well. Plus, the reroll power can be cast on *other* squads, so you can throw it on the MM attack bikes the turn you need that LR to go away.

Razerous wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
A better place for your near-obligatory Divination Librarian Warlord is in your backfield, staying alive and enhancing your primary shooty units.

Okay, I like this advice, its different to my original thinking.

But what kind of HQ (or Why is the Div Librarian mandatory?) and what kind of BA shooty units work well with it.

The Div Librarian is "near-obligatory" because Divination is amazing and the Librarian is cheap, which is important because the codex as a whole has suffered some nerfs (FNP is kind of a wash, but Furious Assault is definitely worse), and you usually want to conserve points on your HQ to spend more on units.

Divination works well with basically any shooty unit that's not already twin-linked. So think about your options for squads which put out lots of shots, so as to get the most milleage out of those re-rolls. Devastators or tactical Terminators are probably the most straightforward- they both put out lots of shots and are durable. Squadrons of attack bikes or land speeders are also worth considering. You're going to get the most use out of Prescience when it's cast on a unit rolling a lot of dice. Prescience is especially awesome because it applies to both shooting and HtH, so be sure to have an assault/counter assault unit near the Libby too, so you can use it on them if an enemy gets close. This is another reason which he compliments Tac Terminators well, because he can just stick with the squad and allow them to re-roll their fusilade of storm bolter (and cyclone or assault cannon) shots as they walk up the field or play blocker for your other units, and then he can allow them to re-roll the power fist attacks when they get stuck in. A Sang Priest is also a good value in a squad of terminators, because even a single terminator saved with FNP nearly pays for the priest.

"Suffered some nerfs" is like saying that Hiroshima "kinda got bombed". But I get your sentiment. I still say that the best power in divination is the 4++ save for a whole unit. That hoses so many schemes in 6th its nuts.

I think people feel subjectively like the army got nerfed more than it actually did; part of that feeling is coming from the normal shakeup that nearly every army (Necrons are basically the exception) experienced in the transition to 6th, where your old lists and strategies became obsolete and we were forced to try new things and approaches.

It took me a good 50 games or so to really start to feel comfortable and like I knew what I was doing with 6th. I played those about half and half with Chaos and with Blood Angels. Many of my vehicles hit the shelf pretty fast, but my Storm Ravens became substantially better and more reliable than they used to be. Tactical Marines suddenly became a useful and valued option. Attack Bikes got even better than they were. Etc.

I agree that Divination is chock-full of good powers. The 4++ power is amazing in assault, especially combined with FNP now working against AP2 and rending. The ignore cover power can be stupid good. The one to make an enemy unit re-roll successful saves can be redonkulously brutal. Take terminator armor and/or a storm shield on your Librarian, and even the "psyker can re-roll everything in assault" power, which is normally a disappointment, suddenly makes him an incredible tank for the unit in close combat. Just the fact that they get Divination offsets some of the bad things BA suffered.

Yes, but Space Cheese (Wolves) get divination as well. Tack on some allied Vendettas, and there's no reason to ever field BA over Space Cheese, except the case of having an entire BA army like I do.

The BA had plenty of trap units in 5th, ie units that look cool, but cost way too much for their in game utility. With the nerfs to HTH, and FC, BA trap units got even trappier. My buddy who who plays BA is not quite as rigourous in his list building as I am and got shot off the table in three turn by the Necrons. The situation is extra humiliating when you realize just how many foes the BA can not handle in CC now.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, but Space Cheese (Wolves) get divination as well. Tack on some allied Vendettas, and there's no reason to ever field BA over Space Cheese, except the case of having an entire BA army like I do.

Maybe if you want lots of jump packs and FNP on all your troops and... Scout Bikers. Actually, I'd love some Scout Bikers with my Wolves, no matter how dumb that idea is haha.

Scout bikers aren't too bad. I don't own any, and I'm broke, or I'd experiment with them some more. But the grey hunter and the 4+ psychic negation thing are just over the top. And they make the BA look like guardsmen HTH across the board. Not very fluff accurate......

What the're good for is having a 3-5 of them with 1 or 2 thunder hammers and jump packs and use them for vehicle smashing duty.

Mhmm, honestly I kind of wish that Wolves would get a new Codex just to balance them out a bit (halve Runic Weapon ranges, make Grey Hunters ~16 or 17pts and/or make their equipment more expensive, make the codex internally balanced, etc).

No, because then you'd just be in the same boat as the BA against GK, IG, Necron, CSM. I only singled out the Space Wolves because they are so much better at what the BA are supposed to be able to do well, which is HTH. If GW had just FAQed the point costs as well, it would be fine. But they don't do that, so the BA are hosed.

I actually like using DC with jumpacks, bolters, and power swords and axes. I take 9 and drop them, shoot something viable and kill with CC if need be.

Martel732 wrote:
Scout bikers aren't too bad. I don't own any, and I'm broke, or I'd experiment with them some more. But the grey hunter and the 4+ psychic negation thing are just over the top. And they make the BA look like guardsmen HTH across the board. Not very fluff accurate......

Death Company chump them in HtH pretty well. GH are more efficient than assault marines, point for point, but we get more mobility. If you're worried about the head to head matchup with SW, that's also a place Mephiston still works quite well.

If you're broke, and haven't been able to change your lists substantially to incorporate different units in 6th, I am not surprised that you are feeling badly nerfed. You really have to make changes to adapt to the new edition.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Scout bikers aren't too bad. I don't own any, and I'm broke, or I'd experiment with them some more. But the grey hunter and the 4+ psychic negation thing are just over the top. And they make the BA look like guardsmen HTH across the board. Not very fluff accurate......

Death Company chump them in HtH pretty well. GH are more efficient than assault marines, point for point, but we get more mobility. If you're worried about the head to head matchup with SW, that's also a place Mephiston still works quite well.

If you're broke, and haven't been able to change your lists substantially to incorporate different units in 6th, I am not surprised that you are feeling badly nerfed. You really have to make changes to adapt to the new edition.

I just find myself hard pressed to justify playing this game over something like Starcraft, where they actually care about player input. And I don't know if it was by design or not, but I'm buying 400 dollars of plastic to "compete".

It's not head to head against Space Wolves. It's that they can build much better TAC lists because their base trooper is anti-horde out of the box.

I can't stand most videogames, so I have more motivation to work on my analog armies.

I wouldn't say SW make better TAC lists. They have better antiinfantry in their Troops, but they don't have any flyers of their own. The two armies have different strengths; but they've both got access to allies too.

Unfortunately, the ally mechanic removes this limitation for the wolves. Plus, the Vendetta is so underpriced they come out ahead of the Stormraven in that arena as well. Granted, the most common is a squadron of two, but that's still one flyer dead a turn, which is all the Space Wolves really care about.

So, yes, I can make a Space Wolf/IG TAC list that will fare far better than BA plus any possible ally. GW has made the BA a joke compared to the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, unfortunately, this is not limited to the Space Wolves. The vanilla marines can out shoot us and CSM also makes us look like children with their HTH options available.

You play all of these armies?

Against them. I only own BA. Was gonna get a few smurf allies, but now I'm not sure.

You might try swapping armies for a couple of games with one or more of your friends who have those other armies. It definitely gives a different perspective to be on the other side of the table.

Can't assault on the turn they come into play with a storm raven.

Land raider crusader isn't bad, can unload 15 of them + a chaplain. Only thing is the ride costs the same as 12 more death company.

Most brutal blunt force deathstar in 6th ed. Block of 30 DC on foot with a reclusiarch and DA allied Azreal inside the squad giving all of them a 4++ invulnerable.

 Mannahnin wrote:
You might try swapping armies for a couple of games with one or more of your friends who have those other armies. It definitely gives a different perspective to be on the other side of the table.

I have borrowed my friend's space wolf/IG a few times, and my other friend's Tau. The space wolf/IG thing is definitely better than anything BA can field. I didn't even use drop pods. I used mechanized wolves and IG fliers. I didn't play enough with the Tau to really form an opinion that is strong. They don't seem worse than BA though.

Martel732 wrote:
Against them. I only own BA. Was gonna get a few smurf allies, but now I'm not sure.

Out of curiosity, do you ever field your BA as C:SM or SW? I see no real reason not to (other than limitations you're imposing on yourself out of love for the fluff). In the end it's just the same models with different colour armour.

I honestly don't own that many tactical marines anymore. I was gonna have to get another squad and paint them blue for smurf allies.

Plus, for the SW to be really functional in my meta as a TAC, I'd have to buy two Vendettas and IG, which I can't do right now.

Martel732 wrote:
I honestly don't own that many tactical marines anymore. I was gonna have to get another squad and paint them blue for smurf allies.

Plus, for the SW to be really functional in my meta as a TAC, I'd have to buy two Vendettas and IG, which I can't do right now.

Fair enough, although GHs can be modelled as BP and CCW thanks to their wargear. I disagree that SW need IG allies. They're useful, but not mandatory in a flier heavy meta. Although to get around it you generally need drop pods which aren't exactly cheap either (although at least they could still be used by BA).

Maybe that's true. I haven't thought about how SW counter Vendetta spam that hard. I just know that I can't often beat SW, SW /wIG, or just IG with the BA.

 Mannahnin wrote:
I can't stand most videogames, so I have more motivation to work on my analog armies.

I wouldn't say SW make better TAC lists. They have better antiinfantry in their Troops, but they don't have any flyers of their own. The two armies have different strengths; but they've both got access to allies too.

SW really do do TAC very well, since we have cheap, versatile troops, and IG really are the perfect allies for us.

 Mannahnin wrote:
You might try swapping armies for a couple of games with one or more of your friends who have those other armies. It definitely gives a different perspective to be on the other side of the table.

Amen to that. I'm convinced that IG are the best army in the game right now, but since starting them and losing my last couple games, they do have some more finesse than "1. Point. 2. Shoot.", especially when trying to work in orders.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Can't assault on the turn they come into play with a storm raven.

Land raider crusader isn't bad, can unload 15 of them + a chaplain. Only thing is the ride costs the same as 12 more death company.

Most brutal blunt force deathstar in 6th ed. Block of 30 DC on foot with a reclusiarch and DA allied Azreal inside the squad giving all of them a 4++ invulnerable.

...is that ability not restricted to DA units only?

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe that's true. I haven't thought about how SW counter Vendetta spam that hard.

It ignores it. Vendettas aren't very manoeuvrable, and with a foot list, especially in rhinos if you're old school or drop pods Vendettas are pretty much irrelevant. When your opponent has ~400pts tied up in fliers which can rarely even hit your units, let alone make huge dents in them, it becomes a rather one-sided game.
Losing outflank really hurt the Vendetta's ability to get around a drop pod in your face list. They pretty much have to fly off every other turn, making them horribly inefficient.

I've been running mine as allies for my Smurfs. Libby goes with my Devs and run the DC in a rhino as a troop choice. I run them cheap and use them as a counter-charge unit in my side of the board. Usually only in the box for deployment or to block LOS. If your coming into my backfield, then your taking a DC charge after getting blasted.

I prefer the "no cover" save power on the devs. Makes Long Fangs cry.

DC in a drop pod with an Axe or two are a pretty decent distraction. But as has been mentioned they are a trap unit. They get pricey fast. I also wouldn't field them in a SR as losing them to a lucky quadgun, vendetta, night scythe or opposing SR can be brutal. Drop pod seems best due to its cheap cost and great mobility.

The problem is, then you're paying 250-300 points for a distraction unit. When I look at what else that many points could have bought, I'm coming to see that DC are too risky an option.

250-300 isn't just a distraction. 250pts of DC in a pod is a full ten man squad with a power axe. That's reasonably beefy and should be able to destroy at least one important (scoring or key fire support) enemy unit, and potentially survive long enough to contest an objective.

 Mannahnin wrote:
250-300 isn't just a distraction. 250pts of DC in a pod is a full ten man squad with a power axe. That's reasonably beefy and should be able to destroy at least one important (scoring or key fire support) enemy unit, and potentially survive long enough to contest an objective.

And if all else fails it'll still be something the enemy can't afford to have running around his backfield.

LValx wrote:
DC in a drop pod with an Axe or two are a pretty decent distraction.

It's mostly a distraction because it doesnt score. I'd use it to try to fold a flank. 2 pods on turn 1 with dc and sternguard in them can be effective. The problem is that most armies can blast 20 fnp marines off the table, at least most of the lists I conjure up and many of the ones I see at events now.

Those two units are going to be around 1/3 of your list. If you're willing to dedicate that much of your force in non-scoring, alpha strike, high variance infantry, I guess you should go for it.

I think you need to spend so many points on our troops that BA armies aren't left with a ton of space left over. I prefer to spend my remaining points, mainly, on AV13 units. Baals, Furiosos, fast Preds, all are in a good spot in modern 40K I think.

Because they are hard to deliver into combat, DC are risky. Yes, they will hack to pieces almost anything they get to rapid fire and then charge in to, but that upside is far from guaranteed. They are too high variance for what they offer.

I think you will find more good players taking low-variance units at the price of a bit of raw power (autocannons over missile launchers are a prime example). Mitigating the potential for bad charge rolls, or below average armor/FNP rolls, is going to be better more often. So, yeah, DC are going to kill more than a tac squad, but a tac squad or RAS squad are more utile and a better use of our limited resources.

I don't think Pods or Storm Ravens are all that hard of ways to get DC into combat. Your opponent does get at least one turn to shoot at you, but they're pretty durable for the points.

As long as it can contest an enemy objective, and do damage, IMO, it's not just a distraction. Obviously you also want scoring units in the army, but you can still get 4+ of those fairly inexpensively with tacs, scouts, allies, and possibly assault marines. Low cost high durability (for the points) scoring is not hard to get; stuff which can get across the field to do damage to the enemy, force them into defensive maneuvering rather than being able to focus on your scorers, and ideally with the ability and take away their objectives, is still a needed and complimentary role, and one that DC can fill.

Stormravens suck as transports. Stormravnes are AV 12 HP 3.That's NOT durable. A Stormraven full of DC is worth shooting everything at and that will bring it down.

Sure, okay. AV12 flyers aren't durable. Maybe your area is drowning in anti-flyer firepower. In that case, fly 36" onto the table and dump the DC out the back immediately. Or just use a drop pod.

tomjoad wrote:Those two units are going to be around 1/3 of your list. If you're willing to dedicate that much of your force in non-scoring, alpha strike, high variance infantry, I guess you should go for it.

I think you need to spend so many points on our troops that BA armies aren't left with a ton of space left over. I prefer to spend my remaining points, mainly, on AV13 units. Baals, Furiosos, fast Preds, all are in a good spot in modern 40K I think.

Because they are hard to deliver into combat, DC are risky. Yes, they will hack to pieces almost anything they get to rapid fire and then charge in to, but that upside is far from guaranteed. They are too high variance for what they offer.

I think you will find more good players taking low-variance units at the price of a bit of raw power (autocannons over missile launchers are a prime example). Mitigating the potential for bad charge rolls, or below average armor/FNP rolls, is going to be better more often. So, yeah, DC are going to kill more than a tac squad, but a tac squad or RAS squad are more utile and a better use of our limited resources.

You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

You forgot a Furioso and a unit of Sanguinary Guard

reps0l wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

You forgot a Furioso and a unit of Sanguinary Guard

Ok so put th furioso into another pod and Sanguinary guard come with built in transport.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You need target saturation. How about Mephiston coming at you in a raven, Death co drop podding down and some TH/SS termies advancing in a land raider.

If you want to spend over 1300 points without any scoring units, even in a 2000 point game, I'd be happy to face that. It's plenty killy, but yeah, that is just not scary as far as actually *winning* a game of 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Including a podded Fuioso and a unit of Sanguinary Guard puts you over 1700, and that's still only one troops choice that can't score. Are you two just trolling now?

There's no need to accuse people of trolling. However, this is how easily Codex: BA becomes Codex: Trap. It's frustrating because there is so much in the BA codex should be cool, but falls short or can't fulfill the basic requirements of the game.

The original thought was legit. Expensive, but the idea is there.

The Furioso and SG back and forth was most definitely trolling.

I think its less than 1700 points, I wasnt trolling. If i need more troops I can pack in some IG easily. I think you need to chill.

I added it up, and, depending on how you outfit the DC, Sang Guard, and how many TH/SS termies you bring, it's going to be in the ballpark of 1600 at a minimum (but the DC and terminators won't be very effective unless you spend 100-200 more). Plus, at least 75 for a second troops choice doesn't leave much for IG allies.

Since you, apparently, didn't actually calculate how much all that stuff costs, you must not have known how much of a list all those things would take up. That's understandable. Now you do know, and I hope you can now see the point that others have been trying to make about some of the cooler units being a huge point sink for the Blood Angels.

Edit: reps0l, I can definitely appreciate some good-natured trolling Thank you.

Tomjoad - The point of this thread was to discuss implementation of DC. I provided I few other examples of units that would take that pressure off the DC dropping down. I never mentioned anything about the costs of these units. I think you have your knickers in a twist. Go take your complaints elsewhere if you have nothing of merit to add.

Your suggestion is that to make one expensive unit more survivable, we should add more expensive units to a list., which I am pointing out is not a feasible or reasonable option at non-Apoc points levels. If you think having zero scoring units in 1600-1800 points of you list is productive, then we are at an impasse and (clearly) nether of us can gain from communicating with one another.

Let us be civil, though. I will ask you: Do you genuinely believe that the basic list you proposed above is viable to win a game, or just as a method of getting DC into contact as a means unto itself?

i never stated this was a complete list or that it was tournament worthy, or that it was in any way complete. You assumed all those points. I was simple making the point that there are ways and other units that can be added to provide pressure. Your crying about a lack of scoring units on a theoretical list that was not intended to be be complete. You could easily fit two full scout squads into that list, giving your up to 4 scoring units. Again I am not stating this is a complete list, as i said above I am just providing examples.

Your claim that adding second or third expensive units is not feasible is ludicrous. By that assumption we cannot include any expensive unit as having only one will present a large target and by your belief having too is a waste. So that limits you to taking what? scouts ? tac marines ? i suggest you go play Guard or the new DA dex if you want cheap units.

BA have a current problem of being overpriced and underwhelming. There is serious debate currently as to the best way to play the dex and that a take all comers list is probably the hardest to pull off.

As to you last question: I am giving examples of getting DC into postition / giving them more suvivability: I have found from experience that having another unit in your opponents face that they have to address is critical. If you drop the DC turn one in a pod, you need to have something coming in or on the table that will make your opponent split focus. Examples such as deep striking terminators, LR with choppy units inside, Fragnoughts out of pod, veterans out of pod. Yes, some of these add up in points, but the idea is that you build a balanced list that can present multiple targets and provides enough firepower.

If you scroll up you will see the link i provided that actually details the list that i had been playing.

It consisted of Terminator Librarian
Shooting termie squad (10)
1 tac squad all plasma
2 x 5 man assault squads
Sanguinary guard
1 x 10 man assault squad
aegis with quad gun
2 priests
2 x 5 man dev squad

I made this list as a TAC and played it with decent effect in a local tournie. In this case the deep striking terminators provided the secondary distraction for my drop pod DC. Not having another turn one unit to put pressure on hurt my DC, however in not a single game did i loose both dev squads or the tac squad, why ? because people where shooting at the immediate threat, the DC that came out of their pod all angry and ready to wreck face.

Look, we all know about the problems the BA have now. Everyone is going to have their own version of how to get around these problems. Some people's solution involves ramming DC into opposing armies.

I think we have boiled this down to two acceptable methods: drop pod and land raider, because 35 pt jump marines is kinda nuts. Oh, yeah Stormraven. 3 methods. I maintain the Stormraven should never be used as a transport, due to the splattering of the occupants if it crashes. If I were forced at gunpoint, I would use TH/SS terminators, not DC, because I at least get to keep 2/3 of them.

I agree with Martel, the only way to deliver DC are by LR or POD. Pod being much cheaper, but with the loss of assault. LR - has assault ramp, expensive, could get wrecked before it gets to where it needs to be. I am really beggining to think that BA need IG allies to shore up some of the weak points of our list. We could take LRBT's to provide more AV 14 saturation to take the heat of the LR. We can take cheap scoring units, something we can all agree that we lack. oh yeah and Vendettas. I still think BA have some fluffy cool units that do have utility on their own, we just lack the ability to build a synergistic list out of our dex on its own

Agreement! I need to get an IG detachment up and running, because, I 100% agree with that sentiment for competitive play. I'm more interested in Earthshaker artillery than LRBTs, but the bodies are really the key.

Not to derail the thread, but I have also started to move from LRBTs to artillery. I think 2 Basilisks and 2 Collusi and 2 Vanquishers (one with Pask) and then 3 vendettas are going to be the backbone of m firepower.

BA's main strength left to it is mobility. something IG lack. There is great potential for synergistic lists.

DC can be so good under the right circumstances, its just that BA can never field enough bodies, and when we give up bodies that aren't even a scoring unit....thats a problem.

Not enough bodies = not enough saturation = DC catch all the fire until they are dead or crippled. This makes the circumstance you describe quite rare.

With allies we can solve our codexes weaknesses. We can rebuild it, make it stronger. We can include... Guard.

Yeah, I'm having flashbacks to 2nd where I allied with guard.

Everyone keeps talking about how few bodies BA are running and how crippled their codex is because of it (well...everyone = a couple loud voices who happen to be repeating it over and over again on any BA centric thread). Just wondering...how many bodies are peeps actually running in their current BA lists?

If I remember correctly, the list I'm painting towards has 53 models in it, 3 of which ara drop pods and 1 other is a furioso dreadnought. The other 48 are mobile and have the potential to rock FnP...

For me, I have enough bodies like you. The bigger issue is the lesser amount of units. Nothing good comes of combat squadding a 10-man Assault squad, it really needs to stay together.

So if you are fighting a bunch of combat squadded Tac marines or even Ravenwing with their attack bikes, you can only assault so many units a turn.

But that is just part of the challenge for me and BA. I agree with you, Void, need more talk about how to make things work and less negativity. BA is still far from the bottom of the barrel and the complaints are unnecessary.

I can field a similar about of marine bodies, but have very limited shooting. Given the HTH nerfs we took, I have had lots of problems with that setup.

This has been almost discussed to death. For this edition, the BA are simply going to be one of the weaker lists. I hope you do like a challenge, because an argument can be made that the BA *are* the bottom right now. Go through each codex and ask yourself if the BA are *really* better than each one. I used to say BA are better than Sisters and BT, but I'm not ever sure about that anymore.

I think anyone who has read any recent BA threads knows your thoughts, Martel.

The BA codex was evidently priced and structured for these elite type units to be sprinkled into the hard hitting HTH ASM troops. If they even gave it that much thought. Now that the HTH ASM troops have taken nerfs from multiple rule changes in 6th, things are just not going to add up. How could they?

Another problem at hand is also a function of elite durability. When the BA pay extra for a vehicle or unit, it is almost never for extra durability. It's for some fluffy something that GW thinks is awesome. This does not help at all in the meta of taking plasma to the face, as calm and competent opponents will shoot what they can, and then sacrifice as necessary to set up these expensive units for an unpleasant turn-after-charge.

If I owned another army, I would quit using the BA. Unfortunately, much of my stuff is pre-magnetization and so I really can't even field a "counts as" army without buying more stuff. This is beginning to remind me of Necron players or DA players "trying to make it work" in 5th. Every edition has the lists that get kicked around. This is the BA's turn. It seems that even editions are not good for us. Here's hoping for 7th!

Yes we know.

I own 7 armies and the BA are still my favorite to play. I like a challenge. I also have highly competative guard units available so I look at the BA issue as something that can be solved easily by taking some guard units. This in turn makes me correlate this idea to the utility of an easy setting in a video game. Sure a game might be too hard to play on the hardest setting, but I would rather slowly adjust the difficulty level that I find a sweet spot where the game is still challenging but also fun.

My old BA list had 53 bodies in it also. My new one is going to be armor focused with a minimum number of scoring units.

I was planning to ally with smurf marines to save $$, but I think the IG is a much better addition to the BA.

Martel732 wrote:
I can field a similar about of marine bodies, but have very limited shooting. Given the HTH nerfs we took, I have had lots of problems with that setup.

This has been almost discussed to death. For this edition, the BA are simply going to be one of the weaker lists. I hope you do like a challenge, because an argument can be made that the BA *are* the bottom right now. Go through each codex and ask yourself if the BA are *really* better than each one. I used to say BA are better than Sisters and BT, but I'm not ever sure about that anymore.

At least BA still have Baal Preds and psychic support. That's better than anything BT and Sisters have access to. Stormravens are also not in Codex: SoB, which is another disadvantage for them.

Assuming the Stormraven is actually an advantage. Where I play, you are just surrendering points to Vendetta spam half the time. It sucks because for TAC lists, I need it as a hedge against helldrakes. It's middle child syndrome; it can beat the helldrakes, but just fails against Vendettas on a point for point basis.

I still argue that BA are probably better off than Sisters and BT. Many people put the BA above Tau and Eldar, and I just can't do that. Especially the Eldar. I'm certain this will be doubly true after their respective codicies drop.

BA may have psychic support, but our characters are laughably bad in HTH. If I'm not mistaken, BT has legit HTH threats in their HQ slots.

The Sisters are so old, and everything is in metal. It seems rather hollow to be more effective than the Sisters of Battle.

Martel732 wrote:

BA may have psychic support, but our characters are laughably bad in HTH. If I'm not mistaken, BT has legit HTH threats in their HQ slots.

Yes, a Marshal/Chaplain with Adamantine Mantle, Thunder Hammer and 2+ can kick some butt, until it runs into anyone who has a way of causing Instant Death other than Tx2 or simply runs into any other dedicated beatstick worth it's salt. Of the "playable" beatstick HQs, ours are the weakest. The fact that Adamantine Mantle is 0-1 also means that we have ONE legit HTH pseudo-thread in an HQ slot, which isn't even Eternal Warrior. Our troops choices are rubbish and our support synergy consists of having Chaplains. That's it.

Let's not take the thread further off-topic though, we can keep going in PMs if you want.

No, no. It's fine. I didn't honestly know the details of BT. Yes, it sounds like the BA are still better off than the BT. It sounds like we are both stuck with bad HQ HTH choices.

Truthfully, I'm waiting the 2-3 years it's going to take to make the DC more viable -- because right now I find it impossible to justify them in any of my lists. I think you're right, that in the future they'll be a larger staple, but until we get a new codex or have something adjusted in the faq it's impossible to justify them (kind of how SG were in 5th).

I look at the 20pt difference between 5 vanilla DC, and 4 Plague marines with a plague champion -- and it's night and day.

To me, there's a chasm between the DC's fluff, and their practicality. Yes, they got far better in 6th because of the change to rage -- but overall I just don't see how they're worth it to a unit.

You simply cant afford to make them jump, but if there's a single unit in the entire BA fluff that better embodies 'hammer of wrath', I don't know what it is.

In my experience, a 5 man AS with 1x Melta and a sarge with PF is vastly more effective than a small DC. I understand the allure of a psychological element -- but I think it's just unwanted attention.

Auswin wrote:

I understand the allure of a psychological element -- but I think it's just unwanted attention.

There is no psychological element to the DC. Just more marines to kill. Except when I kill these ones, I'm eating through more points than any of the others.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Auswin wrote:

I understand the allure of a psychological element -- but I think it's just unwanted attention.

There is no psychological element to the DC. Just more marines to kill. Except when I kill these ones, I'm eating through more points than any of the others.

This.

Death co should come with free jump packs or a discounted transport. I also miss the 2nd Ed rule where they had 1 wound +1. Basically they were so amped up that they had 2 wounds during the game. If they took only one wound they would count as dead after the game for victory conditions.

26 points or so for DC with a free jump pack, we could talk. But 35? What are they smoking over at GW? I miss using these guys, too.

I am sure that in the next codex the DC will be worse or the same (they aren't optimal choices, but they aren't terrible and it seems as if they sell pretty well). I'd guess cheaper jump packs but without relentless and rage, or something like that.

But, I'm sure GW will try to make Sanguinary Guard into a playable unit in the next book to make up for it. Maybe 2+/5++ with better weapons and an boost to either I or A.

I think the SG is more playable than the DC right now. They come with more standard gear for the price. 40 points for artificer armor, power weapon, and jump pack. That's not too terrible. Their primary issues are their inability to suck up plasma fire, inability to take on teqs, and their lack of efficacy vs hordes.

I too had dreams of a DC victory..... I was rudely awakened by by the sound of IG battle cannons.... The only real reason anyone takes DC is to have access to the DC dred in hopes you can get it into CC...

I just got my brother started on his BA army (He still hasn't built it though), and looking through the codex, all the vehicles are fast vehicles. Why not use them as a screen (or in the case of vindicators a mobile gunline) for a squad of jump pack equip DC? Plow straight into the enemies lines with 12" movement shooting S10 ap2 Large Blasts, then mopping it all up with a DC assault? Keep a tac squad or two trailing behind to capture objectives, and voila! The only real problem with this list is the lack of AA, but the meta doesn't really use flyers except for our nid players with their 1 or 2 flyrants.

Well, playing both large (apocalypse) and small (1500 or less) games of 40K 6th against Chaos SM and Orks, I have found the DC to be game winners.

As for all the "everything in his army shooting at one squad" argument from, for example, Martel, obviously people are not good at using terrain to their advantage.

BA have the mobility to bounce out from behind LOS blocking terrain, hit the smack out of someone, and before we go on about overwatch, to be honest tis not really that effective.

Denying objectives can be just as effective as holding them in the right circumstances.

Not to mention the expression on your opponents face when you disordered charge two of his scoring units and still get 3 WS5 attacks per model........

Martel732 wrote:
I think the SG is more playable than the DC right now. They come with more standard gear for the price. 40 points for artificer armor, power weapon, and jump pack. That's not too terrible. Their primary issues are their inability to suck up plasma fire, inability to take on teqs, and their lack of efficacy vs hordes.

I absolutely agree with this. If I'd make a single change to them it would be to make them T5. I wouldn't give them a 5++, because then they just become jump terminators, and I don't think that makes them unique enough. However, the bump to toughness would justify the point cost better. Maybe a one point boost to initiative also, but this could be a stretch. After all, these are supposed to be the baddest vets the BA have.

As for dealing with hordes, I've found death masks to be life saving against greenskins, but I think the rule on them should make the ld check at -1. Especially with how leadership seems to get bumped up more and more.

Almost every list I've made in 6th includes the SG, and thus far they've made their points back in almost every game (except when I play the IG or Tau).

 Endriu Death Coy wrote:
Not to mention the expression on your opponents face when you disordered charge two of his scoring units and still get 3 WS5 attacks per model........

Hm, I need to try this. You are right 3 attacks with WS5 and Furious Charge should be enough.

I know all about the terrain argument. You can't count on terrain in any given match up. Terrain density is random, as are the pieces available to put on the board. Sometimes you will get fantastically lucky and have awesome terrain. Other times, it's going to be like the Russian steppes.

It's also not just a game of "getting DC to a target". Good players will sacrifice a chump unit to them and the line up a kill zone after the DC exterminate the chump unit in a single turn. I know that's what I do to them. It's even better when you can force them to assault a rhino or razorback, since they don't have the range weapons to crack them. For lists like SW and CSM, the DC are the only HTH unit they care about, unless SG are on the board. They will find a way to eliminate them if the players are any good.

Who lets two of their scoring units within disordered charge range of DC? It's not like the game doesn't last 5 turns or so. There is plenty of time to claim objectives after crippling your foe.

I like SG, but I see them more useful as a shooty unit. I usually run one group with swords, one fist and four plasma pistols and then a secondary group with axes, one fist and 4 infernus pistols.

I think DC are still quite fun to use, and I think they do tend to intimidate your foe (even if it is slightly unjustified).

I'm still painting my up and will continue to run them, but they do usually under-perform for the premium points cost.

I think the best use for them in 10 man in a drop pod, also dropping with a Fragnaught, but then you need 3 drops pods in your army which in itself if over 100pts.

I've started another thread about BA and IG allies as the when the topic came up earlier in this thread it really peaked my interest as I've been considering IG as an Ally for a while, but don't really know what direction to go, so a fuller discussion about that would be useful, here's a link.

Linky:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/512264.page#5360641

D

(P.S sorry for the thread jacking)

Martel, you can't "force" the DC to attack anything, as the days of them being led around by the nose are over thanks to the latest rage rule, and with JP, you can just blow past a chump unit to get to the things you want to kill.

It seems to me that you don't know how to use them properly.

As for an opponent being poor because of having two scoring units close enough together to be suffering a disordered charge on both, come on, you are being as bit disingenuous there, for example when facing CSM where special characters make most of their army scoring.

So far I have not had any problems using them very effectively against Chaos SM and Orks in 6th.

In 5th, just keep them in a big metal box or drop pod until required, shake up and release.....

BTW, I have been playing since 1991.

Aleph-Sama wrote:
Why not use them as a screen (or in the case of vindicators a mobile gunline) for a squad of jump pack equip DC? ... mopping it all up with a DC assault?

The AV:13 wall is a common BA tactic. It works very well. BA are decent mech army.

However, 35pts per model to "mop up"? Don't you see the flaw in that, when for 18pts per model you can do the same thing?

Yes, DC are definitely not "mop up" troops. They are smash high value target troops.

Working on the AV13 wall at the moment, Baal preds and standard dakka preds, not to mention my old favorite, the vindi