Either Lion or Alpharius. In a grand-melee scenario like this, cunning is the greatest asset in victory. Those two can run circles around the other Primarchs when it comes to cleverness.
Beaviz81 wrote: I'm sort of seeing a super-powered wrestling-event now. Would they use ladders and tables as well? Would Empy comment on it with Malcador?
Why would you say that. Now I see all the primarchs in those creepy wrestling suits. Oh god I can see forever...
But yeah I can't really see anyone win yet. But I do know the one to go down first... it'd prolly be Angron due to his full on derp rage.
Beaviz81 wrote: I'm sort of seeing a super-powered wrestling-event now. Would they use ladders and tables as well? Would Empy comment on it with Malcador?
Gota side with Alpharius and Omegon not only will they disappear and play every one off against each other they have the advantage of no one knowing there's two of them.
horus
because hes only one to beeing close with the emperor himself
remember how the "master of mankind" got on the golden throne and as to why sanguinus is dead.
According to Corax, probably Angron, but also Sanguinius or Horus.
You can probably rule out:
- Corax (for admitting the above).
- Curze (for being defeated by the Lion).
- Lorgar (for being defeated by Corax).
In theory, Magnus would be pretty ridiculous, due to the sheer power that comes from psychic ability; but then again, he was defeated by Russ; who then again again appears to have some anti-psychic mojo.
The setting would win. Before BL bombed us with boring cardbord characters ( disregarding some exceptions ), the Horus Heresy with it's half forgotten tales of heroes and devils was actualy a pretty nice background myth.
fyurian wrote: horus
because hes only one to beeing close with the emperor himself
remember how the "master of mankind" got on the golden throne and as to why sanguinus is dead.
True but by that time he was imbued by all 4 Chaos Gods and was pretty tasty in a ruck, I'd imagine the OP means with their 'natural' powers and abilties.
My vote goes either Russ or Sanguinius. Alpharius/Omegon's 'no-one knows there's 2 of us trick' would be pretty short-lived given the mental capabilities of their opponents. They are also described as being smaller than their brothers so should one get caught on their own....
Sanguinius is mentioned a few times in the books that he was certainly one of if not the best duellists and you'd have to totally annihilate Russ as he would never stop coming back for more.
Just Dave wrote: According to Corax, probably Angron, but also Sanguinius or Horus.
You can probably rule out:
- Corax (for admitting the above).
- Curze (for being defeated by the Lion).
- Lorgar (for being defeated by Corax).
In theory, Magnus would be pretty ridiculous, due to the sheer power that comes from psychic ability; but then again, he was defeated by Russ; who then again again appears to have some anti-psychic mojo.
Curze was bested by Lion in a straight duel, but in a brawl, Curze dominated the Lion. Frankly, by showings Curze seems to be the most effective hand-to-hand combatant of the Primarchs, having also nearly killed Dorn with his bare hands.
The Lorgar that was defeated by Corax is not the same as the Lorgar of the current Horus Heresy. He is a psyker second only to Magnus, and even Angron compliments his martial prowess.
Magnus went into the fight against Russ half-hearted, per both A Thousand Sons and Lorgar's admission, and despite that was also busy psychically devastating Prospero's surface. He was also clearly holding the upper hand for the majority of the fight, until a wild, lucky swing took out Magnus's eye. Also, resistance to psychic powers is not unique to Russ. All the Primarchs have it, yet despite that, Lorgar was capable of telepathically commanding Horus, and Magnus proceeded to psychically dominate Lorgar from the other side of the galaxy.
Personally, I'd favor Angron (Due to his fury, martial prowess, and experience in gladiator bouts), Magnus (Due to a combination of incredible size, strength, and martial capability even by Primarch standards, "lauded as rivaling Russ," as well as being easily the most powerful psyker here), and Sanguinius (Who is basically a combination of Angron and Magnus, not quite as capable at their specialties as they are, but still very powerful).
Actually, I might have to say probably Sanguinius, more than anyone. It isn't just that he is very strong and martially powerful. It isn't just that he is a psyker of impressive standing. Those are benefits, but the real reason I'd favor him is mobility, in the form of his wings. In a huge free for all arena, mobility is essential, he could more easily disengage from an unfavorable position (A charging Angron, having Magnus's powers brought to bear on him, whatever), travel the length of the battlefield, and engage an unprepared opponent.
^LOL - Magnus went into a fight with Russ half hearted ? I say vice versa - Russ is doing his job, while cyclops goes into rage mode (fully backed by Tzeench) after he sees mass raping of his sons...
And that wild punch is pretty deliberate
Spoiler:
"Magnus the Red took to the field of battle. The ravaged ground liquefying under his mighty strides As he cut a swathe through the ranks of the Space Wolves, Crushing everything in his path. Where his gaze fell, even the stoutest Long Fang turned white and died. The single orb in his forehead pulsed with an unnatural light. And his red mane stood on end with the energies coursing around him. Truly, this was an abomination in the eyes of the Emperor.
Leman Russ leapt from the thick of the melee to intercept the rampaging giant. As he turned, Russ grabbed one of the traitors by the throat and flung it at the giant's face. Magnus s petrifying gaze was blocked for a moment, and with celerity unheard of, Russ charged bodily into the crimson behemoth. And yet he did not fall.
The giant moved far faster than a being of such size might. Smashing his fist into Russ s chest with force enough to splinter his breastplate, pushing slivers of ccramite into Russs heart. But the Wolf-King was undaunted. Crabbing the giants arm as Magnus reared back for another blow, Russ was brought near to the giants face, and kicked him squarely in the eye. Magnus's roar of pain shattered the sky above, and thick black blood began to rain from the heavens.
Russ took his chance, and grabbed his blinded foe about the waist. Lifting the Cyclops clean off the ground, teeth grinding in a grimace of pain, The Wolf-King broke the Cyclops' back. The Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, turned and fled. But as Russ raised the Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow. Magnus gasped a word of power and sank into the iridescent ground."
now even if you go with the book trough Ahriman eyes - saying that Magnus was half hearted in that battle is madness....
DarthMarko wrote: ^LOL - Magnus went into a fight with Russ half hearted ?
Yes.
I say vice versa - Russ is doing his job, while cyclops goes into rage mode (fully backed by Tzeench) after he sees mass raping of his sons...
And that wild punch is pretty deliberate
Russ did indeed do his job, whereas Magnus, even now (That is to say, as of Betrayer), has not fully committed towards betraying the Emperor against his brothers, much less as of Prospero.
You know this to be fact, because you've said it.
Spoiler:
"Magnus the Red took to the field of battle. The ravaged ground liquefying under his mighty strides As he cut a swathe through the ranks of the Space Wolves, Crushing everything in his path. Where his gaze fell, even the stoutest Long Fang turned white and died. The single orb in his forehead pulsed with an unnatural light. And his red mane stood on end with the energies coursing around him. Truly, this was an abomination in the eyes of the Emperor.
Leman Russ leapt from the thick of the melee to intercept the rampaging giant. As he turned, Russ grabbed one of the traitors by the throat and flung it at the giant's face. Magnus s petrifying gaze was blocked for a moment, and with celerity unheard of, Russ charged bodily into the crimson behemoth. And yet he did not fall.
The giant moved far faster than a being of such size might. Smashing his fist into Russ s chest with force enough to splinter his breastplate, pushing slivers of ccramite into Russs heart. But the Wolf-King was undaunted. Crabbing the giants arm as Magnus reared back for another blow, Russ was brought near to the giants face, and kicked him squarely in the eye. Magnus's roar of pain shattered the sky above, and thick black blood began to rain from the heavens.
Russ took his chance, and grabbed his blinded foe about the waist. Lifting the Cyclops clean off the ground, teeth grinding in a grimace of pain, The Wolf-King broke the Cyclops' back. The Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, turned and fled. But as Russ raised the Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow. Magnus gasped a word of power and sank into the iridescent ground."
now even if you go with the book trough Ahriman eyes - saying that Magnus was half hearted in that battle is madness....
A Thousand Sons was not written in first-person.
If we go with Index Astartes, Leman Russ's chest was split open by Magnus's fist without the use of any sorcery, lol.
You seem mad. I think you should calm down. No one is threatening your food Marko.
Magnus was only half hearted when he "attacked the fang" ... On Prospero he went on Russ like father goes to protect his dying sons, fully in rage, fightning with motive which puts Russ's motive to shame...
Also Russ didn't enjoy his job (evident by his attempt of conversation with Magnus in "Prospero burnes")....So disagree 100% - no offense, and without mad tone
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote: From an out-of-universe perspective, clearly it would have to be Leman Russ, seeing as Space Wolves have +1 plot armour.
I'm just happy you can always remind me on that...
Russ did indeed do his job, whereas Magnus, even now (That is to say, as of Betrayer), has not fully committed towards betraying the Emperor against his brothers, much less as of Prospero.
So you will not bring "they were forced to become traitor" story again?
That's why I don't pity Magnus - he knows Horus's prank, he knows about chaos Gods, he is fully aware of his downfall - and yet he is undicided? And after how many years he goes with the traitors ? Why ?
We still don't know his motive, but I'm looking foward to find out...
Void__Dragon wrote:Russ did indeed do his job, whereas Magnus, even now (That is to say, as of Betrayer), has not fully committed towards betraying the Emperor against his brothers, much less as of Prospero.
...
A Thousand Sons was not written in first-person.
None of the fluff portraying the Magnus/Russ fight is first-person AFAIK, and neither Prospero Burns or A Thousand Sons (bearing in mind Marko's above quote) seem to suggest Russ or Magnus as holding back during the fight, whilst the quote in my sig also suggests that Russ wasn't too keen on fighting his brother. It would seem reasonable to me to assume both Magnus and Russ went into the fight with a similar mind-set*.
You seem mad. I think you should calm down. No one is threatening your food Marko.
I have to say, this seems like an unnecessary comment to me. Marko didn't seem mad at all; particularly not considering his usual "enthusiasm" in the forums, or "preference" for the Space Wolves. Indeed, he seemed to make a fair point to me.
Void__Dragon wrote:Curze was bested by Lion in a straight duel, but in a brawl, Curze dominated the Lion. Frankly, by showings Curze seems to be the most effective hand-to-hand combatant of the Primarchs, having also nearly killed Dorn with his bare hands.
I'm aware that is was a straight duel in which Lion bested Curze and that Curze does appear (unsurprisingly) to be a superior fighter when it's a simple/messy scrap. But, I would assume that in the thread's scenario they'd have weapons and therefore Curze's hand-to-hand ability is irrelevant. Also, him attacking Dorn is probably not seen as exactly a fair fight?*
And lets be honest, the most effective hand-to-hand combatant of the Primarchs is Ferrus Manus.
The Lorgar that was defeated by Corax is not the same as the Lorgar of the current Horus Heresy. He is a psyker second only to Magnus, and even Angron compliments his martial prowess.
I'm aware, but again, I'd assume that it's irrelevant to the - admittedly, pretty ridiculous - concept of the thread, as - like many/most/all(?) others - I'm assuming this is the Primarchs pre-Chaos, to make it as "fair" as possible*.
As per A First Heretic, it seems Lorgar isn't exactly a fighter, or not by the typical standards of the Primarchs.
Also, resistance to psychic powers is not unique to Russ. All the Primarchs have it
Personally, I don't recall evidence for all Primarchs having psychic resistance (although I've not read the novella's/Exterminatus/Betrayer - and would appreciate no more spoilers, please); but if that is the case, wouldn't that diminish Magnus' chances even further?
I too would be inclined to favour Sanguinius (or Angron or Horus, as suggested by Corax); but you can't really rule out any Primarch*, and it's hard not to see Russ as a contender (despite his losing to Angron; but then, that is the nature of the image Russ likes to portray).
*As AD-B has said at least, the Primarchs appear to all be similarly matched and their individual fights oft dependent upon the circumstances; it would be hard to point to any as the definitively best fighter, IMHO. There's often evidence against both sides, and I guess that can be what makes these threads so interesting.
Jimsolo wrote: I always thought that Angron was secretly the smartest of the Primarchs. It isn't spelled out anywhere, it's just my own private assessment.
See, I always thought the Primarchs were supposed to be, in addition to super-strong, super-smart. Capable of tactical reasoning and planning dozens of moves in advance, which explains part of why they were so successful. (And part of why their wars with each other were so bloody.)
One of the biggest dangers a Primarch could face would be another Primarch, capable of seeing through his brother's strategy. But Angron has the way around that.
If you attack your enemy hard enough, fast enough, and with enough raw, brutal aggression, then he will have to abandon whatever plans he has in motion and respond in kind. When you take it to the kill-or-be-killed level, and his only possible escape is to kill you first, then you have forced him to fight using your strategy. And, if you've been doing this for as long as Angron has, then the advantage is yours, since you are a master with this tactic and he but a novice.
Some people see Angron as nothing more than a raging, foolish brute, but I posit that he has found a genius of simplicity that has worked out pretty well for him so far.
Hmmm...there's been like six threads this week I've wound up quoting this block of text to. Maybe I should sig it or something...
@Dave
IIRC Kor Phaeron had Guiliman at his mercy after 3 psy hits, Lorgar had his incident with Horus where he managed to "stiff him", so I would rule out all P are psy resistant on the same level...
Also when you will read "the Betrayer" you'll see that the point of the chapter (and Russ) isn't winning the duel with Angron, so your observation "it all depends on circumstances" stands...
If they all had their favourite melee weapon to hand and it was a fair one-on-one type tournament scenario my picks goes to the Lion and Angron. In an all out melee then my pick goes straight to Angron.
The Lion because he is a master tactician to rival Gulliman and an absolutely lethal close quarters combatant and Angron because of his sheer rage and brutality.
Russ would go a long way and so would Sanguinious. Khan would certainly be a contender but I think that he would lose when facing the Lion or Angron.
Alpharius and Omegon would get theirs handed to them the moment they stepped into the fight with any of the others. Ferrus Manus would do well and so would Fulgrim and Vulkan.
Magnus and Lorgar I think would have trouble. Most of the instances of them using their abilities come down to their brothers not expecting it. In a straight up fight I think they'd have serious problems.
Peturabo, Mortarion and Corax strengths are really not one-on-one combat, especially not with their brothers. Cruze can fight but I don't think he would last in a duel with one of his brothers.
Horus is a tactician to rival both the Lion and Gulliman put together but in a fight without the backing of the Dark Gods... I don't think he'd come out on top.
I think Ferrus Manus because IIRC (sorry I'm still new to this forum and i don't know how to make a spoiler button so SPOILER) in the fight with Fulgrim on Istvaan 3 its said that blows seemed to glance off him when they should have struck him down. That kind of natural ability to avoid most fatal attacks seems to have my vote. And his arms are covered in living metal from a giant snake which he killed with his bare hands. He doesn't need to worry about the other guy's weapon when he can charge in and glance the attack off then rip you apart with his bare hands. He's got my vote.
Jimsolo wrote: I always thought that Angron was secretly the smartest of the Primarchs. It isn't spelled out anywhere, it's just my own private assessment.
See, I always thought the Primarchs were supposed to be, in addition to super-strong, super-smart. Capable of tactical reasoning and planning dozens of moves in advance, which explains part of why they were so successful. (And part of why their wars with each other were so bloody.)
One of the biggest dangers a Primarch could face would be another Primarch, capable of seeing through his brother's strategy. But Angron has the way around that.
If you attack your enemy hard enough, fast enough, and with enough raw, brutal aggression, then he will have to abandon whatever plans he has in motion and respond in kind. When you take it to the kill-or-be-killed level, and his only possible escape is to kill you first, then you have forced him to fight using your strategy. And, if you've been doing this for as long as Angron has, then the advantage is yours, since you are a master with this tactic and he but a novice.
Some people see Angron as nothing more than a raging, foolish brute, but I posit that he has found a genius of simplicity that has worked out pretty well for him so far.
Hmmm...there's been like six threads this week I've wound up quoting this block of text to. Maybe I should sig it or something...
Dude you're like the smartest man I've ever met...
Jimsolo wrote: I always thought that Angron was secretly the smartest of the Primarchs. It isn't spelled out anywhere, it's just my own private assessment.
See, I always thought the Primarchs were supposed to be, in addition to super-strong, super-smart. Capable of tactical reasoning and planning dozens of moves in advance, which explains part of why they were so successful. (And part of why their wars with each other were so bloody.)
One of the biggest dangers a Primarch could face would be another Primarch, capable of seeing through his brother's strategy. But Angron has the way around that.
If you attack your enemy hard enough, fast enough, and with enough raw, brutal aggression, then he will have to abandon whatever plans he has in motion and respond in kind. When you take it to the kill-or-be-killed level, and his only possible escape is to kill you first, then you have forced him to fight using your strategy. And, if you've been doing this for as long as Angron has, then the advantage is yours, since you are a master with this tactic and he but a novice.
Some people see Angron as nothing more than a raging, foolish brute, but I posit that he has found a genius of simplicity that has worked out pretty well for him so far.
Hmmm...there's been like six threads this week I've wound up quoting this block of text to. Maybe I should sig it or something...
I think its a neat (and really original) idea, but I think where it falls down is that that's the only tactic Angron is capable of, and it wouldn't work as well against someone such as the Eldar.
I mean, other Primarchs can utilise the same tactic (and Horus is famed for his speartip schtick), but others too.
There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".
The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.
So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.
Just Dave wrote: I think its a neat (and really original) idea, but I think where it falls down is that that's the only tactic Angron is capable of, and it wouldn't work as well against someone such as the Eldar.
It seemed to work pretty well against them in The Butcher's Nails.
/Void__Dragon just finished a new 40k work and has to reference it on Dakka.
There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".
The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.
So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.
It works in real life. Germans did it pretty well in WW1 and WWII. Luddendorf Offensive, 1918. Got within 40 Miles of Paris. Only reason they stopped was due to outrunning supplies. Same with the Battle of the Bulge.
USSR did it too during WWII. Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, and many others.
Anyways, I am going for Angron. In a melee fight , pure fighting power is really all you need
There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".
The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.
So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.
It works in real life. Germans did it pretty well in WW1 and WWII. Luddendorf Offensive, 1918. Got within 40 Miles of Paris. Only reason they stopped was due to outrunning supplies. Same with the Battle of the Bulge.
USSR did it too during WWII. Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, and many others.
Anyways, I am going for Angron. In a melee fight , pure fighting power is really all you need
The Germans lost both wars. As you noted, the lightning war lost its momentum and eventually they found themselves overextended and outnumbered once the allies realized what's up and acted accordingly.
There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".
The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.
So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.
It works in real life. Germans did it pretty well in WW1 and WWII. Luddendorf Offensive, 1918. Got within 40 Miles of Paris. Only reason they stopped was due to outrunning supplies. Same with the Battle of the Bulge.
USSR did it too during WWII. Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, and many others.
Anyways, I am going for Angron. In a melee fight , pure fighting power is really all you need
Think you might want to study the Luddendorf offensive a little more. The germans implemented some new tactics that put power at the lowest possible level to make decisions in real time that drastically increased their effectiveness. They then built on those ideas in the interwar years and we all know how well that worked for the French in 1939.
Also the battle of the bulge was again, not an expected attack, it came through rough terrain and in the middle of winter when the allies thought they were safe.
Still I have to agree, sometimes it works. The USSR's campains into Germany were not subtle or hidden just kind of here we come try and stop us.
There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".
The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.
So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.
so Guilliman prepares all possible targets with ambushes 365 days a year, for the last 10,000 years? Seems kind of costly. You dont know where Angron is going to target or where he is going to strike so you cannot defend everywhere. When Angron does attack he often takes the shorter route attacking the more heavily defended, but strategically more important targets and his ferocity and strength will him to victory and then he launches another attack deep into enemy territory, at which point there is again no defense set up and waiting for him because no one expected the last bastion to fall.
My top 3 are Magnus, Ferrus Manus, and Sanguinius*
Note: Horus beat Sanguinius because he was already worn down holding the Eterety Gate single handedly, and was in combat for awhile with the Ka'Bandha, before Sanguinius broke the daemon's back and banished him back to the warp. So Sanguinius must have been pretty exhausted when he faced Horus.
The nameless wrote: Wouldn't Angron/Sanguine/Horus be the most likely first targets in an 18 primarch free-for-all?
This is going to play a big factor in the fight. Round one, Fight: Angron runs forward, cuts one of his brothers in half. The rest of them (being smart guys) realize that if they don't at least work together a little bit, they will not see the end of the fight.
How those little impromptu alliances work out will determine the outcome of the whole thing. And the only reason some of the more sneaky/plany primarchs have a chance over the more CC oriented ones. Being crafty is all well and good, but when locked in an arena with a bunch of demigod murder machines, you need to work together or you just end up bloody chunks.
Surely Magnus seeing as psychic mastery seems to be the biggest ass kicker in the Warhammer universe?
Angron wouldn't get anywhere near him, he can just.. you know.. do crazy psyker gak.
That aside, as always I go with Gulliman, because in real life, the most professional soldier always wins, and Gulliman spends more time squaring his gak away than anybody else.
That aside, as always I go with Gulliman, because in real life, the most professional soldier always wins, and Gulliman spends more time squaring his gak away than anybody else.
Soldiers are not equiped to deal with 18 man free for all melees, warriors are.
Just Dave wrote: But you don't know what influence Tzeentch had on the fight itself, other than ensuring it happened?
Well, the usage of "fateful blow" to describe Leman Russ's frantic, blind swing that quickly reversed what was before a fight in Magnus's favor implies... Quite a bit, IMO, lol.
Just Dave wrote: But you don't know what influence Tzeentch had on the fight itself, other than ensuring it happened?
Well, the usage of "fateful blow" to describe Leman Russ's frantic, blind swing that quickly reversed what was before a fight in Magnus's favor implies... Quite a bit, IMO, lol.
I never read into it that much, myself. I can understand if you do, I guess, I just saw it as that the blow that truly turned the fight in Russ' favour. Even Magnus himself didn't expect to survive vs. Russ, and it didn't exactly seem like Tzeentch was holding him back, but that's my opinion on it. I can understand if yours - particularly as a TS fan - is different.
Just Dave wrote: I never read into it that much, myself. I can understand if you do, I guess, I just saw it as that the blow that truly turned the fight in Russ' favour. Even Magnus himself didn't expect to survive vs. Russ, and it didn't exactly seem like Tzeentch was holding him back, but that's my opinion on it. I can understand if yours - particularly as a TS fan - is different.
Ah, so you are insinuating that I am biased.
“What of you, my lord?” asked Ahriman. “What will you do?”
“What I must,” said Magnus, looking over at the raging form of Leman Russ as he charged with a glacial lack of speed onto the causeway. The
primarch reached down and touched the jade scarab in the centre of Ahriman’s breast-plate. The crystal shone with a pale light, and Ahriman felt
the immense power resting within it.
“This was cut from the Reflecting Caves,” said Magnus. “Every warrior of my Legion bears one set in his armour. When the moment comes, and
you will know it when it does, concentrate all your energies on the this crystal and those of your battle-brothers.”
“I don’t understand,” pleaded Ahriman. “What must I do?”
“What you have been destined to do since before you were born,” said Magnus. “Now go!”
“I will stand with you,” vowed Ahriman.
“No,” said Magnus with an endless abyss of regret. “You will not. Our fates are unravelling even now, and what happens here has to happen. Do
this last thing for me, Ahzek.”
Magnus, whom has a direct link to Tzeentch mind you, seemed to believe wholeheartedly that what was about to happen, could not happen any other way. He would be beaten by Leman Russ because he was meant to be so.
Indeed, analyzing Magnus the Red's story actually implies that his life was determined from the beginning, perhaps the same is true of his Legion.
According to Amon, Magnus once told him that Ahriman would live, so that he could save their Legion .
“He said you would live,” said Amon.
“The primarch?”
“Yes. Years ago as you lay dying in the midst of the flesh change he knew you would live to see this moment.”
This is interesting IMO, because it paints a different interpretation of Magnus, as a sort of Doctor Manhattan-esque character, possessing great power and absolute knowledge of the strands of Fate, but unable to really act on it.
Also, Magnus can apparently slow the flow of time so that even a Primarch can only move at a crawl.
Again, I never interpreted it like that.
To me, just because Magnus' fate was to fall to Tzeentch - which IMHO would likely happen if he defeated Russ, too - didn't mean that that blow or the fight specifically was orchestrated by Tzeentch.
That said, with Tzeentch controlling everything up to that point, why wouldn't he influence the fight? But to me, it seemed like the fight was influenced to favour Magnus, if anything.
I guess I feel it is much more open to interpretation than you seem to.
I also feel that - in the end - Magnus was more unwilling, than unable, to act on his knowledge/power.
Just Dave wrote: I never read into it that much, myself. I can understand if you do, I guess, I just saw it as that the blow that truly turned the fight in Russ' favour. Even Magnus himself didn't expect to survive vs. Russ, and it didn't exactly seem like Tzeentch was holding him back, but that's my opinion on it. I can understand if yours - particularly as a TS fan - is different.
Ah, so you are insinuating that I am biased.
Your avatar and signature insinuate a lot more, you fanboy. Hahahahaa
Just Dave wrote: Again, I never interpreted it like that.
To me, just because Magnus' fate was to fall to Tzeentch - which IMHO would likely happen if he defeated Russ, too - didn't mean that that blow or the fight specifically was orchestrated by Tzeentch.
That said, with Tzeentch controlling everything up to that point, why wouldn't he influence the fight? But to me, it seemed like the fight was influenced to favour Magnus, if anything.
I guess I feel it is much more open to interpretation than you seem to.
I also feel that - in the end - Magnus was more unwilling, than unable, to act on his knowledge/power.
Calm down.
I am just giving an interpretation I came upon, I'm not insinuating it is the only or "correct" interpretation.
But to me, Tzeentch orchestrating that "fateful blow" is thematically appropriate, Magnus, for all his knowledge and power, was always a slave to the Architect of Fate, and it goes along with Magnus's lack of control and his resignation to his Fate.
Though it could also arguably be a self-fulfilling prophecy, going along with the "resignation" theme, which is arguably thematically richer.
That's the 2nd time in this thread that you've needlessly suggested someone needs to calm down. To me, that suggests an assumption of (moral) authority, but nonetheless, for future reference, that's not who I am: I don't get angry, particularly on Dakka - i guess thats hard to convey over text.
But to me, Tzeentch orchestrating that "fateful blow" is thematically appropriate, Magnus, for all his knowledge and power, was always a slave to the Architect of Fate, and it goes along with Magnus's lack of control and his resignation to his Fate.
Though it could also arguably be a self-fulfilling prophecy, going along with the "resignation" theme, which is arguably thematically richer.
I interpreted it as more of the latter. As I see it, Tzeentch had already corrupted Magnus and sealed his fate, regardless of the outcome of his fight with Russ. I don't see Tzeentch as influencing the fight - not least in Russ' favour - but rather allowing Magnus to go to his own demise/fall to Tzeentch, possibly also as an illusion of free will or as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
To me, that's a much more potent image than Magnus being controlled the whole way.
IMHO Tzeench screwed Magnus when he took his eye (he traded that for knowlege IIRC)....Tzeench sees the future, "BOOM" his fate sealed...
Which brings question if he didn't done that :
- would he be so powerful?
- would his legion be alive?
- his fate would be 180% different
- he probably never have to fought Russ
IMO:
After mixing codex/index/book versions of the fight who says that Magnus didn't get boosted before entering the fray with Russ just to match him (evident in index)? He came as a GOD IIRC and did some GODLIKE stuff (evidient in book) ...
I'm inclined to belive that Russ defeated him only by cunning ; sacrificing his heart get him close (same as Bjorn did with Amon ) and punched him in only place where he was weak - simple....
Also @Void Tzeench is not a God who goes into dirty work - he only pulls strings of fate to ensure the future...So you need chill man and try to be a little impartial...
By too much degrading Russ you are only degrading yourself...Dude admit a defeat and carry on...
^ Fulgrim is probably most disregarded primarch in this vs threads....
I mean he has 2 primarchs down count and like stated in "AE" he was an unmatched swordsman ...So kudos for that...
Perturabo also....
Just Dave wrote: That's the 2nd time in this thread that you've needlessly suggested someone needs to calm down. To me, that suggests an assumption of (moral) authority, but nonetheless, for future reference, that's not who I am: I don't get angry, particularly on Dakka - i guess thats hard to convey over text.
Needlessly?
What is it with Dakka and their constant usage of constructing straw men, without even seemingly realizing it?
I made no comment that my personal interpretation was the definitive one, my son.
I interpreted it as more of the latter. As I see it, Tzeentch had already corrupted Magnus and sealed his fate, regardless of the outcome of his fight with Russ. I don't see Tzeentch as influencing the fight - not least in Russ' favour - but rather allowing Magnus to go to his own demise/fall to Tzeentch, possibly also as an illusion of free will or as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
To me, that's a much more potent image than Magnus being controlled the whole way.
That's fine.
Either way, my point is supported, be it Tzeentch manipulating the flow of fate and causality, making that blind strike happen to land exactly where it needed to, or be it Magnus simply resigning himself to being killed by Leman Russ (He didn't seem to know that Tzeentch would actually save him).
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DarthMarko wrote: IMHO Tzeench screwed Magnus when he took his eye (he traded that for knowlege IIRC)....Tzeench sees the future, "BOOM" his fate sealed...
Which brings question if he didn't done that :
- would he be so powerful?
- would his legion be alive?
- his fate would be 180% different
- he probably never have to fought Russ
So do you support the theory that Magnus's downfall, every detail, was planned by the Architect of Fate?
IMO:
After mixing codex/index/book versions of the fight who says that Magnus didn't get boosted before entering the fray with Russ just to match him (evident in index)? He came as a GOD IIRC and did some GODLIKE stuff (evidient in book) ...
I'm inclined to belive that Russ defeated him only by cunning ; sacrificing his heart get him close (same as Bjorn did with Amon ) and punched him in only place where he was weak - simple....
Also @Void Tzeench is not a God who goes into dirty work - he only pulls strings of fate to ensure the future...So you need chill man and try to be a little impartial...
By too much degrading Russ you are only degrading yourself...Dude admit a defeat and carry on...
Index Astartes depicts a decidedly more betrayal-happy Magnus than the Horus Heresy series, and frankly, supping himself on the Warp isn't some one-time amp for Magnus, A Thousand Sons made it clear that Magnus can draw more and more power from the Immaterium inside him at any time, as seen when he shattered the wards guarding the Webway.
I don't know if I'd say he came as a "god", Index Astartes only says he was infused with "eldritch energies".
"Blinded" is the term used to describe that blow, I suppose it depends on if you prefer the Index Astartes version, or the A Thousand Sons version.
Tzeentch is all about manipulating the strings of Fate to get his way, lol, but he does so subtly. That there are a few interpretations of the extent of Tzeentch's involvement only further reinforces that. I am reminded of that Futurama episode, where Bender meets "God", and questions how it is best to address your subjects. It said, "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." That line applies in this situation, it is impossible to tell the exact nature of Tzeentch's involvement. Befitting of the Architect of Fate.
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DarthMarko wrote: ^ Fulgrim is probably most disregarded primarch in this vs threads....
I mean he has 2 primarchs down count and like stated in "AE" he was an unmatched swordsman ...So kudos for that...
Perturabo also....
Eh, he had to rely upon a Daemon to beat Ferrus Manus, and anyone and their grandmother could beat Roboute.
DarthMarko wrote: ^ Fulgrim is probably most disregarded primarch in this vs threads....
I mean he has 2 primarchs down count and like stated in "AE" he was an unmatched swordsman ...So kudos for that...
Perturabo also....
And Magnus too - nerd has a chance with those primarch who are not so psykic resistant (Robby, Lorgar???) and maybe vs Angel boy (burning his wings)...But not so much against guys like Russ or Angron (nails)...
And freaking Corax who can zap, has a chance too...Ne-ve-r-mo-re !!!
Either way, my point is supported, be it Tzeentch manipulating the flow of fate and causality, making that blind strike happen to land exactly where it needed to, or be it Magnus simply resigning himself to being killed by Leman Russ (He didn't seem to know that Tzeentch would actually save him).
I see it like this - one eye = one strike -> simple... two eyes = nothing happens to Prospero, but Magnus isn't the same primarch (on power level, knowlege)....
and last of your obesrvation I don't buy... Magnus said "the magic teleporting words" seconds before Mjalnar struck...So it is evident he had an chat with God of change right before the battle (book)....
Void__Dragon wrote: So do you support the theory that Magnus's downfall, every detail, was planned by the Architect of Fate?
OFC - but also we can't 100% pinpoint where did Tzeench pulled his card, and where Magnus plays his role....So I stick to a little enigma, and I won't go into a deterministic state saying "this is how it happened"...
I have been thinking about this for a while, and I think that Curze would win. I think he is the perfect mix. He is one of the few primarchs that would be happy to sit back and watch the fight unfold, while using hit and run tactics, and he has proven himself a great fighter on 2 occasions. He beat Dorn and he would have killed the Lion had the Lion's bodyguards not stabbed through the spine.
All I remember is Curze choking him to death and backstaber saving the half-gai primarch...
Later, author relented and gave DA fans the bone (leaving the details of a fight shrouded )...But I presume it was a backstaber again...
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reddwarf54 wrote: I have been thinking about this for a while, and I think that Curze would win. I think he is the perfect mix. He is one of the few primarchs that would be happy to sit back and watch the fight unfold, while using hit and run tactics, and he has proven himself a great fighter on 2 occasions. He beat Dorn and he would have killed the Lion had the Lion's bodyguards not stabbed through the spine.
Yes, backstaber saved his arse - but not so sure about Dorn...It was a suprise attack and if I recall correctly Dorn didn't have PA (not so sure on that)....
Nope not a back stabber, the fight was over in seconds, curze got his ass handed to him, lion is massively more skilled than curze in combat, curzes edge is knowing he will not die, so he can throw himself at any primarch and know he will live, he knows how he will die... And its not a primarch that does it.
In the same story curze fights lion again, but this time it's more equal.
He only lost to Horus because he had been fighting hundreds of bloodthirsters nonstop for three days without sleep.
Where are you getting hundreds of bloodthirsters from? First time he fought a bloodthirster one on one he lost, granted he redeemed himself later but hundreds is bull
Formosa wrote: Nope not a back stabber, the fight was over in seconds, curze got his ass handed to him, lion is massively more skilled than curze in combat, curzes edge is knowing he will not die, so he can throw himself at any primarch and know he will live, he knows how he will die... And its not a primarch that does it.
In the same story curze fights lion again, but this time it's more equal.
Fact - backstaber saved his life..On that I'm certain...so if backstaber comes with Lion, he has some chance...
He only lost to Horus because he had been fighting hundreds of bloodthirsters nonstop for three days without sleep.
Where are you getting hundreds of bloodthirsters from? First time he fought a bloodthirster one on one he lost, granted he redeemed himself later but hundreds is bull
He fought them during the Horus Heresy on the steps outside Big E's palace. When Terra was getting the everloving crap kicked out of it.
Tiarna Fuilteach wrote: I know the setting your on about mate but I've never seen it mentioned that he fought hundreds of bloodthirsters, sure your not thinking bloodletters?
Oh sorry my bad Yeah it was bloodletters, he only killed one bloodthirster while on terra. Cracked it in half with his knee!
^ Bah, Bloodthirsters are so generic..and Angel boy even lost a first fight....
-Lorgar defeated their chieftain
-Draigo eats them for lunch
-Njal ripped one in half
....continue
I think Curze would clipped his wings and eat him for dinner:-) after he flayed and deep fried him.-)
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Tiarna Fuilteach wrote: I know the setting your on about mate but I've never seen it mentioned that he fought hundreds of bloodthirsters, sure your not thinking bloodletters?
He fought hundred of deamon princes,thousand of bloodthirsters, and milion of CSM...he defeated them with his psykic fart...
Formosa wrote: Nope not a back stabber, the fight was over in seconds, curze got his ass handed to him, lion is massively more skilled than curze in combat, curzes edge is knowing he will not die, so he can throw himself at any primarch and know he will live, he knows how he will die... And its not a primarch that does it.
In the same story curze fights lion again, but this time it's more equal.
Fact - backstaber saved his life..On that I'm certain...so if backstaber comes with Lion, he has some chance...
Please dont do this
Fact-
When
Fact- wrong book....
I'm talking about round 2/3, round 1 went to curze as I said before, round 2 was lion hands down, round 3 we dont see the
Result, backstqbber was only present at round 1 and possibly round 3.
That aside, as always I go with Gulliman, because in real life, the most professional soldier always wins, and Gulliman spends more time squaring his gak away than anybody else.
Soldiers are not equiped to deal with 18 man free for all melees, warriors are.
A soldiers a warrior as well surely? Gulliman probably spends more time than most in the training cages as well.
Think about it, I spent most of my time as a soldier training physically, he's blatantly going to be the bloke cracking 4 hours in the gym while Dorn sits with the perv glove on, Russ gets drunk, Lorgar prays and Night Haunter sits in the dark lamenting.
Seriously, half of the Primarchs are damaged goods, have you read Betrayer? After that I wouldn't put Angron or his legion anywhere near the top of the list for anything, he/they might be good at ripping peoples balls off, but I think you need the whole package to win in a Royal Rumble/war, and they act like mad dogs and display little common sense. As a result id also write off the wolf as well, even though he is awesome, and go with anyone who actually lets their head rule their actions, keeps their heart-rate low and do what's smart in a scrap.
So, the more unassuming ones like Vulkan and Gulliman and Alpharius/Omegon and the like id go with, and id write off all of the ones who seem to have seriously deep rooted emotional issues, so.. well, that's most of them isn't it?
Erik_Morkai wrote: The 18 Primarchs walk into the arena. The ref signals the start.
After a melee of epic violence which can be heard miles away the dust settles around the last man standing.
The ref raises the winner's arm only to stab him under it straight to the hearts.
The ref takes off his mask and reveals Omegon.
Cunning and deception can always overcome brute strength/psychic powers and sometimes plot armor/device.
This man gets it.
Yes, and Omegon isn't the only one that is cunning and uses his intellect. Sure half of the Primarch's seem to let their emotions run rampant, but Gulliman is certainly a man who utilises the fullest extent of his intellect and remains coldly logical.
See above, I certainly wouldn't write off Alphy and Omegon, but at least 5 or 6 of the Primarchs actually seem able to utilise their intellects.
thenoobbomb wrote: But Alpharius and Omegon can be seen as the smartest, and noone knows about Omegon, save for the AL themselves.
Well, I don't think you can define "smartest" so easily, in real life as well. Is a mathematician "smarter" than an nuclear physicist? Its not something you can easily quantify is it?
The questions pretty dumb as well obviously, luck will play a big part in a scrap like that, but as a general answer I would say the ones that seem more mentally balanced, so Vulkan, Roboute Guilliman, Magnus, Sanguinius, Jaghatai Khan, Corax, Alpharius or Omegon.
The rest seem all a little fethed in the head to me.
The Primarchs who aren't on the 'RAEG' side of life are all good strategists in a different way though. I agree, luck will be a big part in something like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And also-in answer to the Magnus debate- I would like to remind everyone that Magnus single-handedly killed a gargant and an eldar phantom titan- something that, IIRC, no other primarch has done.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And also-in answer to the Magnus debate- I would like to remind everyone that Magnus single-handedly killed a gargant and an eldar phantom titan- something that, IIRC, no other primarch has done.
Aye I mentioned the Khan, he's certainly in with a chance, they haven't given enough information about him yet to make an informed opinion really, he's got to be the most fluff light primarch, but he certainly hasn't been given a serious mental issue such as Curze, Russ or Angron so Id happily wager on him.
Agreed on Magnus, I think he didn't go even remotely balls out on Russ at the time as he was still loyal to his father. If he was raging with what he knows about psyching and sorcery I reckon he could pretty much feth anyone except for the big E. Certainly in the fluff they seem to make psykers ridiculously powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And also-in answer to the Magnus debate- I would like to remind everyone that Magnus single-handedly killed a gargant and an eldar phantom titan- something that, IIRC, no other primarch has done.
Russ killed a warlord titan with his axe, fulgrim turned a warhound into pink mush with his brain... So yeah others have done it
Formosa wrote: Russ killed a warlord titan with his axe, fulgrim turned a warhound into pink mush with his brain... So yeah others have done it
I've heard of Russ destroying a Titan, but never Fulgrim, where are both of these instances from?
Russ destroying a Titan is from WD #233, he leaps on its back from a building and kills the crew, if I recall correctly. Fulgrim uses his psychic powers, yes, he has them now too apparently, to kill the crew of the Titan in Reflection Crack'd from 'The Primarchs'.
In this FFA, Magnus, Sanguinius, Lorgar and Fulgrim are all firing laz0r beams at each other from their eyes. Mortarion, Corax and Russ, hating weird magic people, decide to team up for the time being and gang up on the nasty witch kind one at a time. Magnus is the last standing as he forms a bubble of protective energy around him. Ferrus Manus has other ideas for him however. Asking his buddy Vulkan to do him one last favour, Vulkan picks him up and throws him like a torpedo. With his Magic Hands like a spear he pierces the protective bubble and thunder punches Magnus head off. Ferrus unfortunately isn't able to stop himself and falls off a cliff Will.e Coyote style into some lava.
To say one Primarch is a dead cert seems kinda silly to me as it all comes down to circumstances. If they were all to bundle each other at the same time, who knows who would be the victor. Some have favorites and grievances, some are psychic power houses and brawlers, but at the end of the day they are all Demi Gods and all were created for one thing, to fight and kill.
Formosa wrote: Russ killed a warlord titan with his axe, fulgrim turned a warhound into pink mush with his brain... So yeah others have done it
I've heard of Russ destroying a Titan, but never Fulgrim, where are both of these instances from?
Russ destroying a Titan is from WD #233, he leaps on its back from a building and kills the crew, if I recall correctly. Fulgrim uses his psychic powers, yes, he has them now too apparently, to kill the crew of the Titan in Reflection Crack'd from 'The Primarchs'.
In this FFA, Magnus, Sanguinius, Lorgar and Fulgrim are all firing laz0r beams at each other from their eyes. Mortarion, Corax and Russ, hating weird magic people, decide to team up for the time being and gang up on the nasty witch kind one at a time. Magnus is the last standing as he forms a bubble of protective energy around him. Ferrus Manus has other ideas for him however. Asking his buddy Vulkan to do him one last favour, Vulkan picks him up and throws him like a torpedo. With his Magic Hands like a spear he pierces the protective bubble and thunder punches Magnus head off. Ferrus unfortunately isn't able to stop himself and falls off a cliff Will.e Coyote style into some lava.
To say one Primarch is a dead cert seems kinda silly to me as it all comes down to circumstances. If they were all to bundle each other at the same time, who knows who would be the victor. Some have favorites and grievances, some are psychic power houses and brawlers, but at the end of the day they are all Demi Gods and all were created for one thing, to fight and kill.
How dare you fight my argument with logic!! Oh the huge manitee!!
Friend you really make me laugh trough all of this thread...
Fanboy: My daddy is better then your daddy he can fly and he destroyes houses with his breath
BlaxicanX : No your daddy is a wimp, he was pummeled on more then few occasions...Waaaiit, this is your interpretation of events?
Fanboy : ........
That aside, as always I go with Gulliman, because in real life, the most professional soldier always wins, and Gulliman spends more time squaring his gak away than anybody else.
Soldiers are not equiped to deal with 18 man free for all melees, warriors are.
A soldiers a warrior as well surely? Gulliman probably spends more time than most in the training cages as well.
Think about it, I spent most of my time as a soldier training physically, he's blatantly going to be the bloke cracking 4 hours in the gym while Dorn sits with the perv glove on, Russ gets drunk, Lorgar prays and Night Haunter sits in the dark lamenting.
Soldiers and Warriors are very different at least in the way I studied military power at University.
A warrior fights the man in front of him, typically using very personal methods. A warrior succeeds or fails purely based on his skill directly compared to his opponents. A warrior with great skill makes a great impact in battle.
A soldier fights as part of a group, everything he does is done to ensure the group succeeds. A soldier of great skill does not make a great impact, rather the average skill of the group he is in makes a larger impact. The weakest member of the group is perhaps more important than the strongest member in determineing the success of the group.
Now in modern warfare, we use soldiers, who use cooridination to beat less coorinated men. Members of modern militaries are warriors sometimes too, at times they have to act in a very personal manner and their success or failure is based on their own abilities, but most of the time it his how well he works with his fellow soldiers that determines the outcome.
I dont mean to personally question your training, but would you say that most of your training was how to fire a gun, physical enhancement, and hand to hand combat or was it cooperative skills, communicating, working together, and ensureing that everyone in your unit met some standard(as soldiers fail on their weakest link)?
Warrior vs Warrior, the strongest, fastest, most skilled fighter wins.
Soldiers vs soldiers, the better organized soldiers win.
Soldiers vs Warriors, it really depends, but the last 500 years have been tilted towards soldiers.
Imma Say Konrad. He is viscous, brutal, and smart. Also, he could sneak.
Also, when he was taken prisoner by Dorn, didn't he kill, or screw up, Dorns Retinue, and knock the fudge outta Dorn? While Curze was disarmed himself?
Pilau Rice wrote: Russ destroying a Titan is from WD #233, he leaps on its back from a building and kills the crew, if I recall correctly. Fulgrim uses his psychic powers, yes, he has them now too apparently, to kill the crew of the Titan in Reflection Crack'd from 'The Primarchs'.
In this FFA, Magnus, Sanguinius, Lorgar and Fulgrim are all firing laz0r beams at each other from their eyes. Mortarion, Corax and Russ, hating weird magic people, decide to team up for the time being and gang up on the nasty witch kind one at a time. Magnus is the last standing as he forms a bubble of protective energy around him. Ferrus Manus has other ideas for him however. Asking his buddy Vulkan to do him one last favour, Vulkan picks him up and throws him like a torpedo. With his Magic Hands like a spear he pierces the protective bubble and thunder punches Magnus head off. Ferrus unfortunately isn't able to stop himself and falls off a cliff Will.e Coyote style into some lava.
To say one Primarch is a dead cert seems kinda silly to me as it all comes down to circumstances. If they were all to bundle each other at the same time, who knows who would be the victor. Some have favorites and grievances, some are psychic power houses and brawlers, but at the end of the day they are all Demi Gods and all were created for one thing, to fight and kill.
Leman Russ actually is among the more powerful psykers within the ranks of the Primarchs, hell, pre-Chaos Lorgar seems to believe him more gifted a psyker than he is.
There is one fact that kind of seriously tilts this in Magnus's favor: He can at the bare minimum drastically lower the flow of time for his brothers.
I find it really strange that he didn't employ this against Leman Russ except at the beginning, with the power to do that, it seems impossible for him to lose.
Leman Russ actually is among the more powerful psykers within the ranks of the Primarchs, hell, pre-Chaos Lorgar seems to believe him more gifted a psyker than he is.
There is one fact that kind of seriously tilts this in Magnus's favor: He can at the bare minimum drastically lower the flow of time for his brothers.
I find it really strange that he didn't employ this against Leman Russ except at the beginning, with the power to do that, it seems impossible for him to lose.
You might be right and might be wrong, but your missing my point I think V__D (two underscores as requested), you can apply any amount of reasons why one Primarch might do better than the others in a fight but it all comes down to there and then. Even the mightiest beings can fall foul to a hole in the ground, a lucky punch or an unexpected fit of laughter. Heck, the lucky Ork straggling the Emperor is exactly the same principle.
Void__Dragon wrote: That's true, but we can try to ascertain who would "generally" win.
Ok, but how do we do that realistically? Ok, as realistically as you can in a made up universe involving superbeings on steroids.
Fact is, Magnus has already been beaten by Russ in a fight. You can dress it up all you like by saying Magnus wasn't using his full power or Tzeentch did, it doesn't change that Magnus lost.
We know that there are instances of various Primarchs beating others in 1v1 situations, but a 1v1 is so much different from a FFA. If it was a tag team event you could at least have loyalists vs traitors and apply some level of winning structure to it. Russ beats Magnus, Angron beats Russ, in comes Ferrus, Angron tags in Fulgrim, Fulgrim beats Ferrus etc etc.
Here's an irony, in know no fear a space marine captain.states that of the 17 other primarchs, only 5 really stood a chance vs guiliman (1vs1), and those 5 seem to be the ones on the pole haha, alpharius omegon not included of course as guiliman already( possibly) rofl stomped one of them.
Agree they are all on the same level if you round them up to rpg points (stated in DA codex - while Russ was stronger Lion was quicker - and they were perfectly balanced not managing to get the upper hand on one another... etc.)
But in free for all I think emotions play big part, negativly and positively, that's why I thing more neutral rogue type would win (Corax, Curze, Apharious and Omegon)...but agree Magnus has an advantage
being a psyker against more weaker psy resistant opponents...
Well not to sound as a fanboy - there is that story (also WD233) when Russ and Lion return to imperial palace...Russ goes into so much bezerk that there isn't a monster in galaxy who could stand against him in that moment (insert a mad dog running to aid his master joke)...
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Formosa wrote: Here's an irony, in know no fear a space marine captain.states that of the 17 other primarchs, only 5 really stood a chance vs guiliman (1vs1), and those 5 seem to be the ones on the pole haha, alpharius omegon not included of course as guiliman already( possibly) rofl stomped one of them.
Sanguinius would win as he would just fly up to the top of the arena where the others cannot get him and just let them fight it out until one is left and then just do a death from above killing blow on the last remaining opponent.....also can we have FATALITY included in the fight as i can just see gulliman punch someones brain out and magnus do a BABALITY on someone else.
Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.
Now angron can also be added to the list as more than likely the in universe character didn't think much of angron
I think that statment ment only 5 primarchs who could best Horus in a duel - not Robby...I might be me and my hollow memory....
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orkdestroyer1 wrote: Sanguinius would win as he would just fly up to the top of the arena where the others cannot get him and just let them fight it out until one is left and then just do a death from above killing blow on the last remaining opponent.....also can we have FATALITY included in the fight as i can just see gulliman punch someones brain out and magnus do a BABALITY on someone else.
Magnus could fry Sanguinius's wings, and when he stafes down and lands on a Ferrus's iron uppercut - pit fatality...
Pilau Rice wrote: Ok, but how do we do that realistically? Ok, as realistically as you can in a made up universe involving superbeings on steroids.
Fact is, Magnus has already been beaten by Russ in a fight. You can dress it up all you like by saying Magnus wasn't using his full power or Tzeentch did, it doesn't change that Magnus lost.
We know that there are instances of various Primarchs beating others in 1v1 situations, but a 1v1 is so much different from a FFA. If it was a tag team event you could at least have loyalists vs traitors and apply some level of winning structure to it. Russ beats Magnus, Angron beats Russ, in comes Ferrus, Angron tags in Fulgrim, Fulgrim beats Ferrus etc etc.
It is ironic that by trying to strip context from the fight between Russ and Magnus, you are doing exactly what you are whining against.
For the purposes of the thread, should I assume that Magnus is just as resigned to losing as he was against Leman Russ?
In a 1v1 it is a lot different. Mobility is much more important, and in that regard, Sanguinius, one of my favorites for the match, is king. Power AOE attacks are much more important, and none can match Magnus's prowess at that.
Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.
Now angron can also be added to the list as more than likely the in universe character didn't think much of angron
I'm gonna be real here.
That character was full of gak and fangirling over her Primarch. It's a fallible character statement.
Guilliman was beaten by Kor Phaeron. No, he was crushed by Kor Phaeron. There's no way I can believe him on the same level as any you named, nor Angron, nor any of the other more psychic brothers.
Pilau Rice wrote: Ok, but how do we do that realistically? Ok, as realistically as you can in a made up universe involving superbeings on steroids.
Fact is, Magnus has already been beaten by Russ in a fight. You can dress it up all you like by saying Magnus wasn't using his full power or Tzeentch did, it doesn't change that Magnus lost.
We know that there are instances of various Primarchs beating others in 1v1 situations, but a 1v1 is so much different from a FFA. If it was a tag team event you could at least have loyalists vs traitors and apply some level of winning structure to it. Russ beats Magnus, Angron beats Russ, in comes Ferrus, Angron tags in Fulgrim, Fulgrim beats Ferrus etc etc.
It is ironic that by trying to strip context from the fight between Russ and Magnus, you are doing exactly what you are whining against.
For the purposes of the thread, should I assume that Magnus is just as resigned to losing as he was against Leman Russ?
In a 1v1 it is a lot different. Mobility is much more important, and in that regard, Sanguinius, one of my favorites for the match, is king. Power AOE attacks are much more important, and none can match Magnus's prowess at that.
Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.
I'd like it to be Li'on el Johnson or Leman Russ,... it would Probably be Horus.... But one thought keeps me for saying that out loud,.. Alpharius and Omegon have the advantage of being 2 souls as one,... They always know what the other is thinking,.. even so,.. one got killed so probably not that an amazing advantage
Also,.. werent there 2 primarchs whose names are unknown to us? We ''know'' Leman Russ (with or without help) executed those 2 and their entire Legions by Orders of the Emperor...
Kor phaeron did indeed beat guilimans down... With psychic powers, look what happened when he got close, without psy powers there is no war kor phaeron would have.even got close.
The ultras captain opinion is just that, notice I added in that angron would make that list 6 primarchs, since the captain probably had a low opinion of him.
Pilau Rice wrote: . Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.
Naturally they can't, but as in any IRL competition, despite the many factors, there can be favorites.
Pilau Rice wrote: . Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.
Naturally they can't, but as in any IRL competition, despite the many factors, there can be favorites.
Hells yeah, but then favorites break their leg jumping over the last hurdle or get roshamboed for the belt.
Maybe a compilation for each of the Primarchs individual feats and abilities should be made and compared to get a guestimate as to whom the winner would be. Perhaps one for during the Heresy and after, or perhaps during only as the Loyalists would possibly be outmatched in stats at this time. For Example
Pilau Rice wrote: . Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.
Naturally they can't, but as in any IRL competition, despite the many factors, there can be favorites.
Hells yeah, but then favorites break their leg jumping over the last hurdle or get roshamboed for the belt.
Maybe a compilation for each of the Primarchs individual feats and abilities should be made and compared to get a guestimate as to whom the winner would be. Perhaps one for during the Heresy and after, or perhaps during only as the Loyalists would possibly be outmatched in stats at this time. For Example
We could, but still it wouldnt make a lot of difference,...
Like Sanguinius beats a daemon in the sky,... who else could do that without aid of a jump pack? The lion killed a super mega strong beast on his planet,.. where other primarchs could have failed because they dont know that beast as he did,... Most awesome feats were accomplished before the arrival of the emperor and made the primarchs into who they were... After that, sure they did awesome things, but were then more busy with commanding, more then fighting,... It would still be fun to gather all theawesome facts/skills/kills of the primarchs
We could, but still it wouldnt make a lot of difference,...
Like Sanguinius beats a daemon in the sky,... who else could do that without aid of a jump pack? The lion killed a super mega strong beast on his planet,.. where other primarchs could have failed because they dont know that beast as he did,... Most awesome feats were accomplished before the arrival of the emperor and made the primarchs into who they were... After that, sure they did awesome things, but were then more busy with commanding, more then fighting,... It would still be fun to gather all theawesome facts/skills/kills of the primarchs
That's basically what I am saying, you can try to summarize everything, it still wouldn't put you any closer to a guaranteed winner. You might have more of an argument for or against a Primarch though and would at least be able to approximate from the feats that they have achieved how well they might do
Killing Sanguinius,.. one of the strongest Primarchs and basicly killing the Emperor?
That's another problem, where do you call the cut off point and from when do you say to start from. I think with Horus you would have to say before the Siege of Terra, or before the confrontation with the Emperor. If you said before the siege then you have to discount Sanguinius second bout with Ka'bandha.
In the case of starting, some Primarchs didn't seem to do much apart from kill a few normal folks, which wouldn't be much of gauge on power and skill.
Then i would say, from the moment they left their pods to the moment they rose to the absolute point of power on their planet? Some primarchs were found way before any other so more deeds are known,.. and put Horus at even more of an advantage...
But if you take the pod-rise of power point of vieuw,... i think that would be the most fair? And yes, even then that would put some primarchs before any other,..
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: Then i would say, from the moment they left their pods to the moment they rose to the absolute point of power on their planet? Some primarchs were found way before any other so more deeds are known,.. and put Horus at even more of an advantage...
But if you take the pod-rise of power point of view,... i think that would be the most fair? And yes, even then that would put some primarchs before any other,..
Angron would be stuffed. His story arc is pod to slave to impending death. Yet he'd be one of the primarchs a lot would bet on.
Might it not just be easier to give odds? based on the poll at the top
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: Then i would say, from the moment they left their pods to the moment they rose to the absolute point of power on their planet? Some primarchs were found way before any other so more deeds are known,.. and put Horus at even more of an advantage...
But if you take the pod-rise of power point of view,... i think that would be the most fair? And yes, even then that would put some primarchs before any other,..
Angron would be stuffed. His story arc is pod to slave to impending death. Yet he'd be one of the primarchs a lot would bet on. Might it not just be easier to give odds? based on the poll at the top
Meh, i Guess you have a point there,...
Back to Horus in Chaos mode then,.. he killed his brother and slapped his daddy into his comatose wheelchair...
I think this is the best we can do beneath - I've sorted the poll into popularity.
I'd really like to hear the reasons why people chose from Corax down - we've heard from the supporters of the 'main' primarchs already. I'd really like to find out the why's for the others.
AdB said that Lorgar is evenly matched with Guiliman so I don't think he is lower than his brothers - only his powers manifested later....Also he is the most interesting character in 30k and lke in the Sigilite audio
Spoiler:
only one which Malcador would save
...So don't exclude him....
Only thing wrong in this poll is "Fulgrim" who is the best swordsman (Perturabo's opinion in AE), and has a butchered primarch count 2...So IMHO he needs more love...
P.S. the person who voted for Lorgar gets a keg of my finest mjod (fully homemade)...
The key is which Lorgar you mean. First Heretic-era Lorgar was weak, disdainful of combat, and confused. Betrayer-era Lorgar is a supervillain who is able to hold his own against Guilliman and defeat an Avatar.
But if you take the pod-rise of power point of view,... i think that would be the most fair? And yes, even then that would put some primarchs before any other,..
Angron would be stuffed. His story arc is pod to slave to impending death. Yet he'd be one of the primarchs a lot would bet on.
Might it not just be easier to give odds? based on the poll at the top
It would depend on how long Angron was a slave for, he never lost a battle in the ring according the After De'shea so would be in his favour, but then Ferrus Manus and Russ both slay beasts of power on their worlds.
If we are going full on achievements over all then Horus would win hands down. No one reached his power level. So what period do we consider, from pod to rise on planet is not enough if you ask me, as the real challenges did not necessarily happen for many of the Primarchs, but then going after the Heresy is maybe too long.
Well, Horus considered Sanguinius his equal, they were the closest of the brother Primarchs before Horus turned into a spoilt brat style idiot.
As for Horus easily beating the Emperor, well thats because the Emperor was pulling his punches until the lone Terminator got wasted trying to reach him on the battle barge. Then he took the gloves off and toasted the brat with a psychic blast through the injury Sanguinius did to the beasts neck.
Endriu Death Coy wrote: Well, Horus considered Sanguinius his equal, they were the closest of the brother Primarchs before Horus turned into a spoilt brat style idiot.
As for Horus easily beating the Emperor, well thats because the Emperor was pulling his punches until the lone Terminator got wasted trying to reach him on the battle barge. Then he took the gloves off and toasted the brat with a psychic blast through the injury Sanguinius did to the beasts neck.
Yes, I am going old school.....
I don't think anyone has said that Horus easily beat the Emperor here, just that Horus became the most powerful Primarch. I agree with you that if the Emperor had gone in all guns blazing Horus would've been mulch on the floor before he got to say 'DADDY'.
If we are going full on achievements over all then Horus would win hands down. No one reached his power level. So what period do we consider, from pod to rise on planet is not enough if you ask me, as the real challenges did not necessarily happen for many of the Primarchs, but then going after the Heresy is maybe too long.
I don't think we can - in the same way as we can't work out which primarch was for what role, or which primarch would've been in charge if Horus wasn't there, or which primarch was which sign on the zodiac or who would win if they were all covered in bees and wrestling in jam
I think everytime it comes down to popularity - and under that criteria, Russ has no equal.
I think you win the internet if you manage to get criteria to objectively rank the primarchs
No one would want to go near him. It'd take ages to get all the jam and bees out of his fur.
But back on topic, I could see this starting out as a free for all, but there'd be alliances forming. Considering Russ and the Lion took about a day to have a punch up, we could be in for the long haul with this. That'd give time for strategy/alliances.
I don't think many of the good primarchs stand a chance in a true last man standing match. If you end up with two 'good' primarchs at the end, who will be the man to take out the other?
EG: Guilliman and Dorn. If they got to the end, they'd go all noble and refuse to fight, then they'd go after whoever was making them fight. *cough cough star trek ripoff cough*
I think it'd end up with the primarchs dividing into teams chosen through loyalty. You'd end up with good and bad teams.
At which point I think 'Gladiators' would be the best way to solve it. I'd pay to watch that.
Russ vs Wolf would be funny, but can you imagine Cobra vs...The Night Haunter! cue a very short pugil stick fight in which Gladiators have their first fatality.
No one would want to go near him. It'd take ages to get all the jam and bees out of his fur.
But back on topic, I could see this starting out as a free for all, but there'd be alliances forming. Considering Russ and the Lion took about a day to have a punch up, we could be in for the long haul with this. That'd give time for strategy/alliances.
I don't think many of the good primarchs stand a chance in a true last man standing match. If you end up with two 'good' primarchs at the end, who will be the man to take out the other?
EG: Guilliman and Dorn. If they got to the end, they'd go all noble and refuse to fight, then they'd go after whoever was making them fight. *cough cough star trek ripoff cough*
I think it'd end up with the primarchs dividing into teams chosen through loyalty. You'd end up with good and bad teams.
At which point I think 'Gladiators' would be the best way to solve it. I'd pay to watch that.
Russ vs Wolf would be funny, but can you imagine Cobra vs...The Night Haunter! cue a very short pugil stick fight in which Gladiators have their first fatality.
Yeah, this is what I think would happen as well. You would get temporary alliances being formed until the end, Guilliman wouldn't stand a chance though, everyone would bundle him at the start.
Yeah, this is what I think would happen as well. You would get temporary alliances being formed until the end, Guilliman wouldn't stand a chance though, everyone would bundle him at the start.
Guilliman might have a better chance than most - isn't his 'stable' called the Dauntless few? They'd ally immediately and would force polarisation between the primarchs - those that side with them and those that oppose.
Yeah, this is what I think would happen as well. You would get temporary alliances being formed until the end, Guilliman wouldn't stand a chance though, everyone would bundle him at the start.
Guilliman might have a better chance than most - isn't his 'stable' called the Dauntless few? They'd ally immediately and would force polarisation between the primarchs - those that side with them and those that oppose.
The Dauntless few are all friends in his head, they don't like him really they just let him boss them around to keep him quiet and from wanting to write everything down. A war with Guilliman is a long one.
I think Sangy and Corax would also be involved in that challenge.
The Dauntless few are all friends in his head, they don't like him really they just let him boss them around to keep him quiet and from wanting to write everything down. A war with Guilliman is a long one.
Thats probably his plan - he's got time to win the whole war, while you're still reading his declaration of war.
I think Sangy and Corax would also be involved in that challenge.
Sanguinius couldn't make a hair advert. Those tv ads aren't allowed to show nipples.
I've had another thought about this - given the primarchs are likely to make alliances, who do people think would be the last man standing of the loyalists?
And who'd be the last man standing of the ...erm...rebels?
Oh god I can see forever...
!!!
