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 mattyrm wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:

That aside, as always I go with Gulliman, because in real life, the most professional soldier always wins, and Gulliman spends more time squaring his gak away than anybody else.

Soldiers are not equiped to deal with 18 man free for all melees, warriors are.

A soldiers a warrior as well surely? Gulliman probably spends more time than most in the training cages as well.

Think about it, I spent most of my time as a soldier training physically, he's blatantly going to be the bloke cracking 4 hours in the gym while Dorn sits with the perv glove on, Russ gets drunk, Lorgar prays and Night Haunter sits in the dark lamenting.

Soldiers and Warriors are very different at least in the way I studied military power at University.

A warrior fights the man in front of him, typically using very personal methods. A warrior succeeds or fails purely based on his skill directly compared to his opponents. A warrior with great skill makes a great impact in battle.

A soldier fights as part of a group, everything he does is done to ensure the group succeeds. A soldier of great skill does not make a great impact, rather the average skill of the group he is in makes a larger impact. The weakest member of the group is perhaps more important than the strongest member in determineing the success of the group.

Now in modern warfare, we use soldiers, who use cooridination to beat less coorinated men. Members of modern militaries are warriors sometimes too, at times they have to act in a very personal manner and their success or failure is based on their own abilities, but most of the time it his how well he works with his fellow soldiers that determines the outcome.

I dont mean to personally question your training, but would you say that most of your training was how to fire a gun, physical enhancement, and hand to hand combat or was it cooperative skills, communicating, working together, and ensureing that everyone in your unit met some standard(as soldiers fail on their weakest link)?


Warrior vs Warrior, the strongest, fastest, most skilled fighter wins.

Soldiers vs soldiers, the better organized soldiers win.

Soldiers vs Warriors, it really depends, but the last 500 years have been tilted towards soldiers.

Imma Say Konrad. He is viscous, brutal, and smart. Also, he could sneak.

Also, when he was taken prisoner by Dorn, didn't he kill, or screw up, Dorns Retinue, and knock the fudge outta Dorn? While Curze was disarmed himself?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Russ destroying a Titan is from WD #233, he leaps on its back from a building and kills the crew, if I recall correctly. Fulgrim uses his psychic powers, yes, he has them now too apparently, to kill the crew of the Titan in Reflection Crack'd from 'The Primarchs'.

In this FFA, Magnus, Sanguinius, Lorgar and Fulgrim are all firing laz0r beams at each other from their eyes. Mortarion, Corax and Russ, hating weird magic people, decide to team up for the time being and gang up on the nasty witch kind one at a time. Magnus is the last standing as he forms a bubble of protective energy around him. Ferrus Manus has other ideas for him however. Asking his buddy Vulkan to do him one last favour, Vulkan picks him up and throws him like a torpedo. With his Magic Hands like a spear he pierces the protective bubble and thunder punches Magnus head off. Ferrus unfortunately isn't able to stop himself and falls off a cliff Will.e Coyote style into some lava.

To say one Primarch is a dead cert seems kinda silly to me as it all comes down to circumstances. If they were all to bundle each other at the same time, who knows who would be the victor. Some have favorites and grievances, some are psychic power houses and brawlers, but at the end of the day they are all Demi Gods and all were created for one thing, to fight and kill.

Leman Russ actually is among the more powerful psykers within the ranks of the Primarchs, hell, pre-Chaos Lorgar seems to believe him more gifted a psyker than he is.

There is one fact that kind of seriously tilts this in Magnus's favor: He can at the bare minimum drastically lower the flow of time for his brothers.

I find it really strange that he didn't employ this against Leman Russ except at the beginning, with the power to do that, it seems impossible for him to lose.

 Formosa wrote:


How dare you fight my argument with logic!! Oh the huge manitee!!

I know right

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Leman Russ actually is among the more powerful psykers within the ranks of the Primarchs, hell, pre-Chaos Lorgar seems to believe him more gifted a psyker than he is.

There is one fact that kind of seriously tilts this in Magnus's favor: He can at the bare minimum drastically lower the flow of time for his brothers.

I find it really strange that he didn't employ this against Leman Russ except at the beginning, with the power to do that, it seems impossible for him to lose.

You might be right and might be wrong, but your missing my point I think V__D (two underscores as requested), you can apply any amount of reasons why one Primarch might do better than the others in a fight but it all comes down to there and then. Even the mightiest beings can fall foul to a hole in the ground, a lucky punch or an unexpected fit of laughter. Heck, the lucky Ork straggling the Emperor is exactly the same principle.

That's true, but we can try to ascertain who would "generally" win.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
That's true, but we can try to ascertain who would "generally" win.

Ok, but how do we do that realistically? Ok, as realistically as you can in a made up universe involving superbeings on steroids.

Fact is, Magnus has already been beaten by Russ in a fight. You can dress it up all you like by saying Magnus wasn't using his full power or Tzeentch did, it doesn't change that Magnus lost.

We know that there are instances of various Primarchs beating others in 1v1 situations, but a 1v1 is so much different from a FFA. If it was a tag team event you could at least have loyalists vs traitors and apply some level of winning structure to it. Russ beats Magnus, Angron beats Russ, in comes Ferrus, Angron tags in Fulgrim, Fulgrim beats Ferrus etc etc.

Here's an irony, in know no fear a space marine captain.states that of the 17 other primarchs, only 5 really stood a chance vs guiliman (1vs1), and those 5 seem to be the ones on the pole haha, alpharius omegon not included of course as guiliman already( possibly) rofl stomped one of them.

Agree they are all on the same level if you round them up to rpg points (stated in DA codex - while Russ was stronger Lion was quicker - and they were perfectly balanced not managing to get the upper hand on one another... etc.)

But in free for all I think emotions play big part, negativly and positively, that's why I thing more neutral rogue type would win (Corax, Curze, Apharious and Omegon)...but agree Magnus has an advantage
being a psyker against more weaker psy resistant opponents...

Well not to sound as a fanboy - there is that story (also WD233) when Russ and Lion return to imperial palace...Russ goes into so much bezerk that there isn't a monster in galaxy who could stand against him in that moment (insert a mad dog running to aid his master joke)...


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 Formosa wrote:
Here's an irony, in know no fear a space marine captain.states that of the 17 other primarchs, only 5 really stood a chance vs guiliman (1vs1), and those 5 seem to be the ones on the pole haha, alpharius omegon not included of course as guiliman already( possibly) rofl stomped one of them.

You mean Horus?

Horus? Dont know what you mean.

Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.

Now angron can also be added to the list as more than likely the in universe character didn't think much of angron

Sanguinius would win as he would just fly up to the top of the arena where the others cannot get him and just let them fight it out until one is left and then just do a death from above killing blow on the last remaining opponent.....also can we have FATALITY included in the fight as i can just see gulliman punch someones brain out and magnus do a BABALITY on someone else.

 Formosa wrote:
Horus? Dont know what you mean.

Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.

Now angron can also be added to the list as more than likely the in universe character didn't think much of angron

I think that statment ment only 5 primarchs who could best Horus in a duel - not Robby...I might be me and my hollow memory....









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orkdestroyer1 wrote:
Sanguinius would win as he would just fly up to the top of the arena where the others cannot get him and just let them fight it out until one is left and then just do a death from above killing blow on the last remaining opponent.....also can we have FATALITY included in the fight as i can just see gulliman punch someones brain out and magnus do a BABALITY on someone else.

Magnus could fry Sanguinius's wings, and when he stafes down and lands on a Ferrus's iron uppercut - pit fatality...

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Ok, but how do we do that realistically? Ok, as realistically as you can in a made up universe involving superbeings on steroids.

Fact is, Magnus has already been beaten by Russ in a fight. You can dress it up all you like by saying Magnus wasn't using his full power or Tzeentch did, it doesn't change that Magnus lost.

We know that there are instances of various Primarchs beating others in 1v1 situations, but a 1v1 is so much different from a FFA. If it was a tag team event you could at least have loyalists vs traitors and apply some level of winning structure to it. Russ beats Magnus, Angron beats Russ, in comes Ferrus, Angron tags in Fulgrim, Fulgrim beats Ferrus etc etc.

It is ironic that by trying to strip context from the fight between Russ and Magnus, you are doing exactly what you are whining against.

For the purposes of the thread, should I assume that Magnus is just as resigned to losing as he was against Leman Russ?

In a 1v1 it is a lot different. Mobility is much more important, and in that regard, Sanguinius, one of my favorites for the match, is king. Power AOE attacks are much more important, and none can match Magnus's prowess at that.


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 Formosa wrote:
Horus? Dont know what you mean.

Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.

Now angron can also be added to the list as more than likely the in universe character didn't think much of angron

I'm gonna be real here.

That character was full of gak and fangirling over her Primarch. It's a fallible character statement.

Guilliman was beaten by Kor Phaeron. No, he was crushed by Kor Phaeron. There's no way I can believe him on the same level as any you named, nor Angron, nor any of the other more psychic brothers.

 Formosa wrote:
Horus? Dont know what you mean.

Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.

Or, you know, Fulgrim. The guy who, for all intents and purposes killed him.

 Durza wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Horus? Dont know what you mean.

Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.

Or, you know, Fulgrim. The guy who, for all intents and purposes killed him.

Fulgrim only got him after he'd been promoted to Daemonhood though. Guilliman is very under rated
And just so everyone understands, I said survived, not beat.

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

 Durza wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Horus? Dont know what you mean.

Guilimans equals or superiors are horus, Magnus, Russ, lion, sanguinius.

Or, you know, Fulgrim. The guy who, for all intents and purposes killed him.

Fulgrim only got him after he'd been promoted to Daemonhood though. Guilliman is very under rated,

Spoiler:

he even manages to survive dueling with Angron, who's totally lost to the Nails, straight after fighting Lorgar.

And just so everyone understands, I said survived, not beat.

Spoilers, please, as juicy as that sounds.

I hate BL's new hardback policy...

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Ok, but how do we do that realistically? Ok, as realistically as you can in a made up universe involving superbeings on steroids.

Fact is, Magnus has already been beaten by Russ in a fight. You can dress it up all you like by saying Magnus wasn't using his full power or Tzeentch did, it doesn't change that Magnus lost.

We know that there are instances of various Primarchs beating others in 1v1 situations, but a 1v1 is so much different from a FFA. If it was a tag team event you could at least have loyalists vs traitors and apply some level of winning structure to it. Russ beats Magnus, Angron beats Russ, in comes Ferrus, Angron tags in Fulgrim, Fulgrim beats Ferrus etc etc.

It is ironic that by trying to strip context from the fight between Russ and Magnus, you are doing exactly what you are whining against.

For the purposes of the thread, should I assume that Magnus is just as resigned to losing as he was against Leman Russ?

In a 1v1 it is a lot different. Mobility is much more important, and in that regard, Sanguinius, one of my favorites for the match, is king. Power AOE attacks are much more important, and none can match Magnus's prowess at that.

Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.

I'd like it to be Li'on el Johnson or Leman Russ,... it would Probably be Horus.... But one thought keeps me for saying that out loud,.. Alpharius and Omegon have the advantage of being 2 souls as one,... They always know what the other is thinking,.. even so,.. one got killed so probably not that an amazing advantage

Also,.. werent there 2 primarchs whose names are unknown to us? We ''know'' Leman Russ (with or without help) executed those 2 and their entire Legions by Orders of the Emperor...

Kor phaeron did indeed beat guilimans down... With psychic powers, look what happened when he got close, without psy powers there is no war kor phaeron would have.even got close.

The ultras captain opinion is just that, notice I added in that angron would make that list 6 primarchs, since the captain probably had a low opinion of him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
. Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.

Naturally they can't, but as in any IRL competition, despite the many factors, there can be favorites.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
. Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.

Naturally they can't, but as in any IRL competition, despite the many factors, there can be favorites.

Hells yeah, but then favorites break their leg jumping over the last hurdle or get roshamboed for the belt.

Maybe a compilation for each of the Primarchs individual feats and abilities should be made and compared to get a guestimate as to whom the winner would be. Perhaps one for during the Heresy and after, or perhaps during only as the Loyalists would possibly be outmatched in stats at this time. For Example

Fulgrim

Master Swordsman
Primarch Killer (Ferrus Manus)
Psyker
Monster Slayer (Avatar, Wraithlord)
Destroyer of Titans (Crew)

Lorgar

Psyker
Monster Slayer (Greater Daemon, Avatar)

etc, or something to that regard?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
. Whose whining You were making facts about Magnus and Russ, I thought I would throw one in there as well, that's all. It doesn't change my opinion that these FFA threads can't determine a be all winner. Like I said before, you might be right about Magnus and you might be wrong. There is no guaranteed winner, some might seem to be a better place to put your bet on, but then the other Primarchs might possibly know this as well and gang up on the most likely money winner.

Naturally they can't, but as in any IRL competition, despite the many factors, there can be favorites.

Hells yeah, but then favorites break their leg jumping over the last hurdle or get roshamboed for the belt.

Maybe a compilation for each of the Primarchs individual feats and abilities should be made and compared to get a guestimate as to whom the winner would be. Perhaps one for during the Heresy and after, or perhaps during only as the Loyalists would possibly be outmatched in stats at this time. For Example

Fulgrim

Master Swordsman
Primarch Killer (Ferrus Manus)
Psyker
Monster Slayer (Avatar, Wraithlord)
Destroyer of Titans (Crew)

Lorgar

Psyker
Monster Slayer (Greater Daemon, Avatar)

etc, or something to that regard?

We could, but still it wouldnt make a lot of difference,...

Like Sanguinius beats a daemon in the sky,... who else could do that without aid of a jump pack? The lion killed a super mega strong beast on his planet,.. where other primarchs could have failed because they dont know that beast as he did,... Most awesome feats were accomplished before the arrival of the emperor and made the primarchs into who they were... After that, sure they did awesome things, but were then more busy with commanding, more then fighting,... It would still be fun to gather all theawesome facts/skills/kills of the primarchs

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:


We could, but still it wouldnt make a lot of difference,...

Like Sanguinius beats a daemon in the sky,... who else could do that without aid of a jump pack? The lion killed a super mega strong beast on his planet,.. where other primarchs could have failed because they dont know that beast as he did,... Most awesome feats were accomplished before the arrival of the emperor and made the primarchs into who they were... After that, sure they did awesome things, but were then more busy with commanding, more then fighting,... It would still be fun to gather all theawesome facts/skills/kills of the primarchs

That's basically what I am saying, you can try to summarize everything, it still wouldn't put you any closer to a guaranteed winner. You might have more of an argument for or against a Primarch though and would at least be able to approximate from the feats that they have achieved how well they might do

I was just thinking,.. wouldnt that put Horus way at the top?

Killing Sanguinius,.. one of the strongest Primarchs and basicly killing the Emperor?

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
I was just thinking,.. wouldnt that put Horus way at the top?

Killing Sanguinius,.. one of the strongest Primarchs and basicly killing the Emperor?

That's another problem, where do you call the cut off point and from when do you say to start from. I think with Horus you would have to say before the Siege of Terra, or before the confrontation with the Emperor. If you said before the siege then you have to discount Sanguinius second bout with Ka'bandha.

In the case of starting, some Primarchs didn't seem to do much apart from kill a few normal folks, which wouldn't be much of gauge on power and skill.

Then i would say, from the moment they left their pods to the moment they rose to the absolute point of power on their planet? Some primarchs were found way before any other so more deeds are known,.. and put Horus at even more of an advantage...

But if you take the pod-rise of power point of vieuw,... i think that would be the most fair? And yes, even then that would put some primarchs before any other,..

Mr. Rogers in a blood-stained sweater.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Then i would say, from the moment they left their pods to the moment they rose to the absolute point of power on their planet? Some primarchs were found way before any other so more deeds are known,.. and put Horus at even more of an advantage...

But if you take the pod-rise of power point of view,... i think that would be the most fair? And yes, even then that would put some primarchs before any other,..

Angron would be stuffed. His story arc is pod to slave to impending death. Yet he'd be one of the primarchs a lot would bet on.
Might it not just be easier to give odds? based on the poll at the top




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 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mr. Rogers in a blood-stained sweater.

from the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny?

Robert. He will find a way to be absent until there is only one wounded guy left and than he will shoot him point blank.

Then the Ultramarine propaganda will proclaim his victory against all odds.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Mr. Rogers in a blood-stained sweater.

from the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny?

Exactly.

I find it interesting that so many vote for Russ, in a one on one match, I'd get it, but I don't fancy his chances in a free for all.

PredaKhaine wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
Then i would say, from the moment they left their pods to the moment they rose to the absolute point of power on their planet? Some primarchs were found way before any other so more deeds are known,.. and put Horus at even more of an advantage...

But if you take the pod-rise of power point of view,... i think that would be the most fair? And yes, even then that would put some primarchs before any other,..

Angron would be stuffed. His story arc is pod to slave to impending death. Yet he'd be one of the primarchs a lot would bet on.
Might it not just be easier to give odds? based on the poll at the top

Meh, i Guess you have a point there,...

Back to Horus in Chaos mode then,.. he killed his brother and slapped his daddy into his comatose wheelchair...