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I’m pretty sure Guilliman got this one in the bag. He signs papers and doesn’t afraid of anything.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Magnus fully intended to save his sons. Via holding Russ and his Legion off, which he did.

He never actually intended to beat Russ, he fully intended to die there, but Tzeentch had entirely different plans.

I know Hector vs Achiles analogy, but last moment words coming out of his mouth were ?

Void__Dragon wrote:Russ did indeed do his job, whereas Magnus, even now (That is to say, as of Betrayer), has not fully committed towards betraying the Emperor against his brothers, much less as of Prospero.

...

A Thousand Sons was not written in first-person.

None of the fluff portraying the Magnus/Russ fight is first-person AFAIK, and neither Prospero Burns or A Thousand Sons (bearing in mind Marko's above quote) seem to suggest Russ or Magnus as holding back during the fight, whilst the quote in my sig also suggests that Russ wasn't too keen on fighting his brother. It would seem reasonable to me to assume both Magnus and Russ went into the fight with a similar mind-set*.

You seem mad. I think you should calm down. No one is threatening your food Marko.

I have to say, this seems like an unnecessary comment to me. Marko didn't seem mad at all; particularly not considering his usual "enthusiasm" in the forums, or "preference" for the Space Wolves. Indeed, he seemed to make a fair point to me.

Void__Dragon wrote:Curze was bested by Lion in a straight duel, but in a brawl, Curze dominated the Lion. Frankly, by showings Curze seems to be the most effective hand-to-hand combatant of the Primarchs, having also nearly killed Dorn with his bare hands.

I'm aware that is was a straight duel in which Lion bested Curze and that Curze does appear (unsurprisingly) to be a superior fighter when it's a simple/messy scrap. But, I would assume that in the thread's scenario they'd have weapons and therefore Curze's hand-to-hand ability is irrelevant. Also, him attacking Dorn is probably not seen as exactly a fair fight?*
And lets be honest, the most effective hand-to-hand combatant of the Primarchs is Ferrus Manus.

The Lorgar that was defeated by Corax is not the same as the Lorgar of the current Horus Heresy. He is a psyker second only to Magnus, and even Angron compliments his martial prowess.

I'm aware, but again, I'd assume that it's irrelevant to the - admittedly, pretty ridiculous - concept of the thread, as - like many/most/all(?) others - I'm assuming this is the Primarchs pre-Chaos, to make it as "fair" as possible*.
As per A First Heretic, it seems Lorgar isn't exactly a fighter, or not by the typical standards of the Primarchs.

Also, resistance to psychic powers is not unique to Russ. All the Primarchs have it

Personally, I don't recall evidence for all Primarchs having psychic resistance (although I've not read the novella's/Exterminatus/Betrayer - and would appreciate no more spoilers, please); but if that is the case, wouldn't that diminish Magnus' chances even further?

I too would be inclined to favour Sanguinius (or Angron or Horus, as suggested by Corax); but you can't really rule out any Primarch*, and it's hard not to see Russ as a contender (despite his losing to Angron; but then, that is the nature of the image Russ likes to portray).


*As AD-B has said at least, the Primarchs appear to all be similarly matched and their individual fights oft dependent upon the circumstances; it would be hard to point to any as the definitively best fighter, IMHO. There's often evidence against both sides, and I guess that can be what makes these threads so interesting.

Alpharion and omegon for me. They definitely have more than enough tricks to make everyone else beat each other first before they steal the win.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I always thought that Angron was secretly the smartest of the Primarchs. It isn't spelled out anywhere, it's just my own private assessment.

See, I always thought the Primarchs were supposed to be, in addition to super-strong, super-smart. Capable of tactical reasoning and planning dozens of moves in advance, which explains part of why they were so successful. (And part of why their wars with each other were so bloody.)

One of the biggest dangers a Primarch could face would be another Primarch, capable of seeing through his brother's strategy. But Angron has the way around that.

If you attack your enemy hard enough, fast enough, and with enough raw, brutal aggression, then he will have to abandon whatever plans he has in motion and respond in kind. When you take it to the kill-or-be-killed level, and his only possible escape is to kill you first, then you have forced him to fight using your strategy. And, if you've been doing this for as long as Angron has, then the advantage is yours, since you are a master with this tactic and he but a novice.

Some people see Angron as nothing more than a raging, foolish brute, but I posit that he has found a genius of simplicity that has worked out pretty well for him so far.

Hmmm...there's been like six threads this week I've wound up quoting this block of text to. Maybe I should sig it or something...

@Dave
IIRC Kor Phaeron had Guiliman at his mercy after 3 psy hits, Lorgar had his incident with Horus where he managed to "stiff him", so I would rule out all P are psy resistant on the same level...
Also when you will read "the Betrayer" you'll see that the point of the chapter (and Russ) isn't winning the duel with Angron, so your observation "it all depends on circumstances" stands...

Sanguinius or Leman Russ, I'd say.

If they all had their favourite melee weapon to hand and it was a fair one-on-one type tournament scenario my picks goes to the Lion and Angron. In an all out melee then my pick goes straight to Angron.

The Lion because he is a master tactician to rival Gulliman and an absolutely lethal close quarters combatant and Angron because of his sheer rage and brutality.

Russ would go a long way and so would Sanguinious. Khan would certainly be a contender but I think that he would lose when facing the Lion or Angron.

Alpharius and Omegon would get theirs handed to them the moment they stepped into the fight with any of the others. Ferrus Manus would do well and so would Fulgrim and Vulkan.

Magnus and Lorgar I think would have trouble. Most of the instances of them using their abilities come down to their brothers not expecting it. In a straight up fight I think they'd have serious problems.

Peturabo, Mortarion and Corax strengths are really not one-on-one combat, especially not with their brothers. Cruze can fight but I don't think he would last in a duel with one of his brothers.

Horus is a tactician to rival both the Lion and Gulliman put together but in a fight without the backing of the Dark Gods... I don't think he'd come out on top.

I think Ferrus Manus because IIRC (sorry I'm still new to this forum and i don't know how to make a spoiler button so SPOILER) in the fight with Fulgrim on Istvaan 3 its said that blows seemed to glance off him when they should have struck him down. That kind of natural ability to avoid most fatal attacks seems to have my vote. And his arms are covered in living metal from a giant snake which he killed with his bare hands. He doesn't need to worry about the other guy's weapon when he can charge in and glance the attack off then rip you apart with his bare hands. He's got my vote.

Magnus not being de-amped by Tzeentch would win, imo.

There isn't a whole lot most of these primarchs can do against psychic attacks, much less of the scale Magnus can conjure up on a whim.

Magnus, because regardless of weaponry, he's still a psyker!

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I always thought that Angron was secretly the smartest of the Primarchs. It isn't spelled out anywhere, it's just my own private assessment.

See, I always thought the Primarchs were supposed to be, in addition to super-strong, super-smart. Capable of tactical reasoning and planning dozens of moves in advance, which explains part of why they were so successful. (And part of why their wars with each other were so bloody.)

One of the biggest dangers a Primarch could face would be another Primarch, capable of seeing through his brother's strategy. But Angron has the way around that.

If you attack your enemy hard enough, fast enough, and with enough raw, brutal aggression, then he will have to abandon whatever plans he has in motion and respond in kind. When you take it to the kill-or-be-killed level, and his only possible escape is to kill you first, then you have forced him to fight using your strategy. And, if you've been doing this for as long as Angron has, then the advantage is yours, since you are a master with this tactic and he but a novice.

Some people see Angron as nothing more than a raging, foolish brute, but I posit that he has found a genius of simplicity that has worked out pretty well for him so far.

Hmmm...there's been like six threads this week I've wound up quoting this block of text to. Maybe I should sig it or something...

Dude you're like the smartest man I've ever met...

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I always thought that Angron was secretly the smartest of the Primarchs. It isn't spelled out anywhere, it's just my own private assessment.

See, I always thought the Primarchs were supposed to be, in addition to super-strong, super-smart. Capable of tactical reasoning and planning dozens of moves in advance, which explains part of why they were so successful. (And part of why their wars with each other were so bloody.)

One of the biggest dangers a Primarch could face would be another Primarch, capable of seeing through his brother's strategy. But Angron has the way around that.

If you attack your enemy hard enough, fast enough, and with enough raw, brutal aggression, then he will have to abandon whatever plans he has in motion and respond in kind. When you take it to the kill-or-be-killed level, and his only possible escape is to kill you first, then you have forced him to fight using your strategy. And, if you've been doing this for as long as Angron has, then the advantage is yours, since you are a master with this tactic and he but a novice.

Some people see Angron as nothing more than a raging, foolish brute, but I posit that he has found a genius of simplicity that has worked out pretty well for him so far.

Hmmm...there's been like six threads this week I've wound up quoting this block of text to. Maybe I should sig it or something...

I think its a neat (and really original) idea, but I think where it falls down is that that's the only tactic Angron is capable of, and it wouldn't work as well against someone such as the Eldar.
I mean, other Primarchs can utilise the same tactic (and Horus is famed for his speartip schtick), but others too.

It's a horrible tactic, to put it bluntly.

There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".

The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.

So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.

Curze of course, he'd wait til everyone was done THEN pounce! Or just go do what he did to silly ol Dorn again

Wouldn't Angron/Sanguine/Horus be the most likely first targets in an 18 primarch free-for-all?

Alpharius would win, because every entrant in the tournament would actually be Alpharius lol

He is clever enough to let the more aggressive primarchs wear each other down before moving in to mop up whats left

 Just Dave wrote:
I think its a neat (and really original) idea, but I think where it falls down is that that's the only tactic Angron is capable of, and it wouldn't work as well against someone such as the Eldar.

It seemed to work pretty well against them in The Butcher's Nails.

/Void__Dragon just finished a new 40k work and has to reference it on Dakka.

Roboute Guilliman!

As he would arrive late to the fight, but just in time to swoop in and finish the last man standing.

THE LION OF COURSE!!!!

He gave curze a good fight didnt he?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No votes for Fulgrim or Lorgar yet?

None, they all punch each other in the face at the same time and die

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Alpharius Omegon.
They are smart, are with two, are cunning and excellent fighters (maybe not better then some other Primarchs).

two is better than one. Also it is likely they are actually in disguise as 2 of the other primarchs leaving chumps in their place.

Russ haha, he couldn't beat lion, angron sang or horus lol

Sanguinius all day 'ery day

BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a horrible tactic, to put it bluntly.

There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".

The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.

So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.

It works in real life. Germans did it pretty well in WW1 and WWII. Luddendorf Offensive, 1918. Got within 40 Miles of Paris. Only reason they stopped was due to outrunning supplies. Same with the Battle of the Bulge.

USSR did it too during WWII. Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, and many others.


Anyways, I am going for Angron. In a melee fight , pure fighting power is really all you need

Not every Primarch is restricted to melee combat.

Sanguinius, Lorgar, and especially Magnus are powerful psykers.

Da_Boss wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a horrible tactic, to put it bluntly.

There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".

The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.

So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.

It works in real life. Germans did it pretty well in WW1 and WWII. Luddendorf Offensive, 1918. Got within 40 Miles of Paris. Only reason they stopped was due to outrunning supplies. Same with the Battle of the Bulge.

USSR did it too during WWII. Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, and many others.


Anyways, I am going for Angron. In a melee fight , pure fighting power is really all you need

The Germans lost both wars. As you noted, the lightning war lost its momentum and eventually they found themselves overextended and outnumbered once the allies realized what's up and acted accordingly.

And none of the allies were even Primarchs.

Plumping for Angron on this one. Brute strength, aggression, and a gladitorial background. If I had to place a bet, he'd be my pick.

I'd prefer to envision this fight as an over the top rope battle royale. It's the small things that keep us amused.

Da_Boss wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a horrible tactic, to put it bluntly.

There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".

The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.

So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.

It works in real life. Germans did it pretty well in WW1 and WWII. Luddendorf Offensive, 1918. Got within 40 Miles of Paris. Only reason they stopped was due to outrunning supplies. Same with the Battle of the Bulge.

USSR did it too during WWII. Stalingrad, Kursk, Berlin, and many others.


Anyways, I am going for Angron. In a melee fight , pure fighting power is really all you need

Think you might want to study the Luddendorf offensive a little more. The germans implemented some new tactics that put power at the lowest possible level to make decisions in real time that drastically increased their effectiveness. They then built on those ideas in the interwar years and we all know how well that worked for the French in 1939.

Also the battle of the bulge was again, not an expected attack, it came through rough terrain and in the middle of winter when the allies thought they were safe.


Still I have to agree, sometimes it works. The USSR's campains into Germany were not subtle or hidden just kind of here we come try and stop us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlaxicanX wrote:
It's a horrible tactic, to put it bluntly.

There's a reason why no real life tacticians have ever utilized something like "mindlessly go on the offensive so hard that the enemy has to drop everything they're doing to fight you".

The reason is because the enemy will see through this strategy in a heart-beat, and simply use it against you, which would be easy since it's mindless by nature.

So Angron thinks he's a cool guy because he's "blitzing" Guilliman's forces. Oops, Guilliman anticipated Angron's strategy two weeks ago, and Angron's men just walked into ambush. gg Angron.

so Guilliman prepares all possible targets with ambushes 365 days a year, for the last 10,000 years? Seems kind of costly. You dont know where Angron is going to target or where he is going to strike so you cannot defend everywhere. When Angron does attack he often takes the shorter route attacking the more heavily defended, but strategically more important targets and his ferocity and strength will him to victory and then he launches another attack deep into enemy territory, at which point there is again no defense set up and waiting for him because no one expected the last bastion to fall.

Guilliman would know exactly where Angron is going to strike if he just marauded forward, footslogging, lol.

Gathering intel was one of Guilliman's specialties.