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My top 3 are Magnus, Ferrus Manus, and Sanguinius*

Note: Horus beat Sanguinius because he was already worn down holding the Eterety Gate single handedly, and was in combat for awhile with the Ka'Bandha, before Sanguinius broke the daemon's back and banished him back to the warp. So Sanguinius must have been pretty exhausted when he faced Horus.

More than that, Horus beat Sanguinius while he was amped by Chaos.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Guilliman would know exactly where Angron is going to strike if he just marauded forward, footslogging, lol.

Gathering intel was one of Guilliman's specialties.

he was so good at gathering intel he say the Horus Heresy coming years in advance and warned the emperor and prevented the whole thing from happening.

He was great at gathering intel.

He just wasn't clairvoyant, not to the extent that he could defy the will of all four Dark Gods working in tandem.

Are you serious?

The nameless wrote:
Wouldn't Angron/Sanguine/Horus be the most likely first targets in an 18 primarch free-for-all?

This is going to play a big factor in the fight. Round one, Fight: Angron runs forward, cuts one of his brothers in half. The rest of them (being smart guys) realize that if they don't at least work together a little bit, they will not see the end of the fight.

How those little impromptu alliances work out will determine the outcome of the whole thing. And the only reason some of the more sneaky/plany primarchs have a chance over the more CC oriented ones. Being crafty is all well and good, but when locked in an arena with a bunch of demigod murder machines, you need to work together or you just end up bloody chunks.

Surely Magnus seeing as psychic mastery seems to be the biggest ass kicker in the Warhammer universe?

Angron wouldn't get anywhere near him, he can just.. you know.. do crazy psyker gak.

That aside, as always I go with Gulliman, because in real life, the most professional soldier always wins, and Gulliman spends more time squaring his gak away than anybody else.

 mattyrm wrote:
Surely Magnus seeing as psychic mastery seems to be the biggest ass kicker in the Warhammer universe?

That was one of my first thoughts too, but surely Russ has already proved otherwise (in Magnus' case anyway)?

 mattyrm wrote:

That aside, as always I go with Gulliman, because in real life, the most professional soldier always wins, and Gulliman spends more time squaring his gak away than anybody else.

Soldiers are not equiped to deal with 18 man free for all melees, warriors are.

 Just Dave wrote:
That was one of my first thoughts too, but surely Russ has already proved otherwise (in Magnus' case anyway)?

When your loss is actively orchestrated by Tzeentch, yeah, I guess he did, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
That was one of my first thoughts too, but surely Russ has already proved otherwise (in Magnus' case anyway)?

When your loss is actively orchestrated by Tzeentch, yeah, I guess he did, lol.

But you don't know what influence Tzeentch had on the fight itself, other than ensuring it happened?

 Just Dave wrote:
But you don't know what influence Tzeentch had on the fight itself, other than ensuring it happened?

Well, the usage of "fateful blow" to describe Leman Russ's frantic, blind swing that quickly reversed what was before a fight in Magnus's favor implies... Quite a bit, IMO, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
But you don't know what influence Tzeentch had on the fight itself, other than ensuring it happened?

Well, the usage of "fateful blow" to describe Leman Russ's frantic, blind swing that quickly reversed what was before a fight in Magnus's favor implies... Quite a bit, IMO, lol.

I never read into it that much, myself. I can understand if you do, I guess, I just saw it as that the blow that truly turned the fight in Russ' favour. Even Magnus himself didn't expect to survive vs. Russ, and it didn't exactly seem like Tzeentch was holding him back, but that's my opinion on it. I can understand if yours - particularly as a TS fan - is different.

 Just Dave wrote:
I never read into it that much, myself. I can understand if you do, I guess, I just saw it as that the blow that truly turned the fight in Russ' favour. Even Magnus himself didn't expect to survive vs. Russ, and it didn't exactly seem like Tzeentch was holding him back, but that's my opinion on it. I can understand if yours - particularly as a TS fan - is different.

Ah, so you are insinuating that I am biased.

“What of you, my lord?” asked Ahriman. “What will you do?”
“What I must,” said Magnus, looking over at the raging form of Leman Russ as he charged with a glacial lack of speed onto the causeway. The
primarch reached down and touched the jade scarab in the centre of Ahriman’s breast-plate. The crystal shone with a pale light, and Ahriman felt
the immense power resting within it.
“This was cut from the Reflecting Caves,” said Magnus. “Every warrior of my Legion bears one set in his armour. When the moment comes, and
you will know it when it does, concentrate all your energies on the this crystal and those of your battle-brothers.”
“I don’t understand,” pleaded Ahriman. “What must I do?”
“What you have been destined to do since before you were born,” said Magnus. “Now go!”
“I will stand with you,” vowed Ahriman.
“No,” said Magnus with an endless abyss of regret. “You will not. Our fates are unravelling even now, and what happens here has to happen. Do
this last thing for me, Ahzek.”

Magnus, whom has a direct link to Tzeentch mind you, seemed to believe wholeheartedly that what was about to happen, could not happen any other way. He would be beaten by Leman Russ because he was meant to be so.

Indeed, analyzing Magnus the Red's story actually implies that his life was determined from the beginning, perhaps the same is true of his Legion.

According to Amon, Magnus once told him that Ahriman would live, so that he could save their Legion .

“He said you would live,” said Amon.
“The primarch?”
“Yes. Years ago as you lay dying in the midst of the flesh change he knew you would live to see this moment.”

This is interesting IMO, because it paints a different interpretation of Magnus, as a sort of Doctor Manhattan-esque character, possessing great power and absolute knowledge of the strands of Fate, but unable to really act on it.

Also, Magnus can apparently slow the flow of time so that even a Primarch can only move at a crawl.

Again, I never interpreted it like that.
To me, just because Magnus' fate was to fall to Tzeentch - which IMHO would likely happen if he defeated Russ, too - didn't mean that that blow or the fight specifically was orchestrated by Tzeentch.
That said, with Tzeentch controlling everything up to that point, why wouldn't he influence the fight? But to me, it seemed like the fight was influenced to favour Magnus, if anything.

I guess I feel it is much more open to interpretation than you seem to.

I also feel that - in the end - Magnus was more unwilling, than unable, to act on his knowledge/power.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:
I never read into it that much, myself. I can understand if you do, I guess, I just saw it as that the blow that truly turned the fight in Russ' favour. Even Magnus himself didn't expect to survive vs. Russ, and it didn't exactly seem like Tzeentch was holding him back, but that's my opinion on it. I can understand if yours - particularly as a TS fan - is different.

Ah, so you are insinuating that I am biased.

Your avatar and signature insinuate a lot more, you fanboy. Hahahahaa

 Just Dave wrote:
Again, I never interpreted it like that.
To me, just because Magnus' fate was to fall to Tzeentch - which IMHO would likely happen if he defeated Russ, too - didn't mean that that blow or the fight specifically was orchestrated by Tzeentch.
That said, with Tzeentch controlling everything up to that point, why wouldn't he influence the fight? But to me, it seemed like the fight was influenced to favour Magnus, if anything.

I guess I feel it is much more open to interpretation than you seem to.

I also feel that - in the end - Magnus was more unwilling, than unable, to act on his knowledge/power.

Calm down.

I am just giving an interpretation I came upon, I'm not insinuating it is the only or "correct" interpretation.

But to me, Tzeentch orchestrating that "fateful blow" is thematically appropriate, Magnus, for all his knowledge and power, was always a slave to the Architect of Fate, and it goes along with Magnus's lack of control and his resignation to his Fate.

Though it could also arguably be a self-fulfilling prophecy, going along with the "resignation" theme, which is arguably thematically richer.

I'm pretty sure you interpret it that way because you like Magnus the Red and don't appreciate him getting his spine snapped by Russ.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Magnus not being de-amped by Tzeentch would win, imo.

There isn't a whole lot most of these primarchs can do against psychic attacks, much less of the scale Magnus can conjure up on a whim.

Of course you'd agree with that, you fanboy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Calm down.

That's the 2nd time in this thread that you've needlessly suggested someone needs to calm down. To me, that suggests an assumption of (moral) authority, but nonetheless, for future reference, that's not who I am: I don't get angry, particularly on Dakka - i guess thats hard to convey over text.

But to me, Tzeentch orchestrating that "fateful blow" is thematically appropriate, Magnus, for all his knowledge and power, was always a slave to the Architect of Fate, and it goes along with Magnus's lack of control and his resignation to his Fate.

Though it could also arguably be a self-fulfilling prophecy, going along with the "resignation" theme, which is arguably thematically richer.

I interpreted it as more of the latter. As I see it, Tzeentch had already corrupted Magnus and sealed his fate, regardless of the outcome of his fight with Russ. I don't see Tzeentch as influencing the fight - not least in Russ' favour - but rather allowing Magnus to go to his own demise/fall to Tzeentch, possibly also as an illusion of free will or as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
To me, that's a much more potent image than Magnus being controlled the whole way.

IMHO Tzeench screwed Magnus when he took his eye (he traded that for knowlege IIRC)....Tzeench sees the future, "BOOM" his fate sealed...
Which brings question if he didn't done that :

- would he be so powerful?
- would his legion be alive?
- his fate would be 180% different
- he probably never have to fought Russ

IMO:
After mixing codex/index/book versions of the fight who says that Magnus didn't get boosted before entering the fray with Russ just to match him (evident in index)? He came as a GOD IIRC and did some GODLIKE stuff (evidient in book) ...
I'm inclined to belive that Russ defeated him only by cunning ; sacrificing his heart get him close (same as Bjorn did with Amon ) and punched him in only place where he was weak - simple....
Also @Void Tzeench is not a God who goes into dirty work - he only pulls strings of fate to ensure the future...So you need chill man and try to be a little impartial...
By too much degrading Russ you are only degrading yourself...Dude admit a defeat and carry on...

Just write - match primarch with legion on my sig - you don't need to explain...

IMHO everyone has a chance...
Horus, Fulgrim and Russ are my favorites...

^ Fulgrim is probably most disregarded primarch in this vs threads....
I mean he has 2 primarchs down count and like stated in "AE" he was an unmatched swordsman ...So kudos for that...
Perturabo also....

 Just Dave wrote:
That's the 2nd time in this thread that you've needlessly suggested someone needs to calm down. To me, that suggests an assumption of (moral) authority, but nonetheless, for future reference, that's not who I am: I don't get angry, particularly on Dakka - i guess thats hard to convey over text.

Needlessly?

What is it with Dakka and their constant usage of constructing straw men, without even seemingly realizing it?

I made no comment that my personal interpretation was the definitive one, my son.

I interpreted it as more of the latter. As I see it, Tzeentch had already corrupted Magnus and sealed his fate, regardless of the outcome of his fight with Russ. I don't see Tzeentch as influencing the fight - not least in Russ' favour - but rather allowing Magnus to go to his own demise/fall to Tzeentch, possibly also as an illusion of free will or as a self-fulfilling prophecy.
To me, that's a much more potent image than Magnus being controlled the whole way.

That's fine.

Either way, my point is supported, be it Tzeentch manipulating the flow of fate and causality, making that blind strike happen to land exactly where it needed to, or be it Magnus simply resigning himself to being killed by Leman Russ (He didn't seem to know that Tzeentch would actually save him).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
IMHO Tzeench screwed Magnus when he took his eye (he traded that for knowlege IIRC)....Tzeench sees the future, "BOOM" his fate sealed...
Which brings question if he didn't done that :

- would he be so powerful?
- would his legion be alive?
- his fate would be 180% different
- he probably never have to fought Russ

So do you support the theory that Magnus's downfall, every detail, was planned by the Architect of Fate?

IMO:
After mixing codex/index/book versions of the fight who says that Magnus didn't get boosted before entering the fray with Russ just to match him (evident in index)? He came as a GOD IIRC and did some GODLIKE stuff (evidient in book) ...
I'm inclined to belive that Russ defeated him only by cunning ; sacrificing his heart get him close (same as Bjorn did with Amon ) and punched him in only place where he was weak - simple....
Also @Void Tzeench is not a God who goes into dirty work - he only pulls strings of fate to ensure the future...So you need chill man and try to be a little impartial...
By too much degrading Russ you are only degrading yourself...Dude admit a defeat and carry on...

Index Astartes depicts a decidedly more betrayal-happy Magnus than the Horus Heresy series, and frankly, supping himself on the Warp isn't some one-time amp for Magnus, A Thousand Sons made it clear that Magnus can draw more and more power from the Immaterium inside him at any time, as seen when he shattered the wards guarding the Webway.

I don't know if I'd say he came as a "god", Index Astartes only says he was infused with "eldritch energies".

"Blinded" is the term used to describe that blow, I suppose it depends on if you prefer the Index Astartes version, or the A Thousand Sons version.

Tzeentch is all about manipulating the strings of Fate to get his way, lol, but he does so subtly. That there are a few interpretations of the extent of Tzeentch's involvement only further reinforces that. I am reminded of that Futurama episode, where Bender meets "God", and questions how it is best to address your subjects. It said, "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." That line applies in this situation, it is impossible to tell the exact nature of Tzeentch's involvement. Befitting of the Architect of Fate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ Fulgrim is probably most disregarded primarch in this vs threads....
I mean he has 2 primarchs down count and like stated in "AE" he was an unmatched swordsman ...So kudos for that...
Perturabo also....

Eh, he had to rely upon a Daemon to beat Ferrus Manus, and anyone and their grandmother could beat Roboute.

 DarthMarko wrote:
^ Fulgrim is probably most disregarded primarch in this vs threads....
I mean he has 2 primarchs down count and like stated in "AE" he was an unmatched swordsman ...So kudos for that...
Perturabo also....

And Magnus too - nerd has a chance with those primarch who are not so psykic resistant (Robby, Lorgar???) and maybe vs Angel boy (burning his wings)...But not so much against guys like Russ or Angron (nails)...
And freaking Corax who can zap, has a chance too...Ne-ve-r-mo-re !!!

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Either way, my point is supported, be it Tzeentch manipulating the flow of fate and causality, making that blind strike happen to land exactly where it needed to, or be it Magnus simply resigning himself to being killed by Leman Russ (He didn't seem to know that Tzeentch would actually save him).

I see it like this - one eye = one strike -> simple... two eyes = nothing happens to Prospero, but Magnus isn't the same primarch (on power level, knowlege)....
and last of your obesrvation I don't buy... Magnus said "the magic teleporting words" seconds before Mjalnar struck...So it is evident he had an chat with God of change right before the battle (book)....

 Void__Dragon wrote:
So do you support the theory that Magnus's downfall, every detail, was planned by the Architect of Fate?

OFC - but also we can't 100% pinpoint where did Tzeench pulled his card, and where Magnus plays his role....So I stick to a little enigma, and I won't go into a deterministic state saying "this is how it happened"...

I have been thinking about this for a while, and I think that Curze would win. I think he is the perfect mix. He is one of the few primarchs that would be happy to sit back and watch the fight unfold, while using hit and run tactics, and he has proven himself a great fighter on 2 occasions. He beat Dorn and he would have killed the Lion had the Lion's bodyguards not stabbed through the spine.

Curze and the lion are 1 for 1 at the Mo, lion beat curze into a coma and beat his legion so soundly it was forced to flee an entire sector.

All I remember is Curze choking him to death and backstaber saving the half-gai primarch...
Later, author relented and gave DA fans the bone (leaving the details of a fight shrouded )...But I presume it was a backstaber again...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reddwarf54 wrote:
I have been thinking about this for a while, and I think that Curze would win. I think he is the perfect mix. He is one of the few primarchs that would be happy to sit back and watch the fight unfold, while using hit and run tactics, and he has proven himself a great fighter on 2 occasions. He beat Dorn and he would have killed the Lion had the Lion's bodyguards not stabbed through the spine.

Yes, backstaber saved his arse - but not so sure about Dorn...It was a suprise attack and if I recall correctly Dorn didn't have PA (not so sure on that)....

Nope not a back stabber, the fight was over in seconds, curze got his ass handed to him, lion is massively more skilled than curze in combat, curzes edge is knowing he will not die, so he can throw himself at any primarch and know he will live, he knows how he will die... And its not a primarch that does it.

In the same story curze fights lion again, but this time it's more equal.