So Im browsing over New Rumors and such, when I go into the Tau rumors thread and read these tasty crumpits:
"Y'know what doesnt fit in 40k? Orks, They are just to silly to be a serious threat"
and
"Agreed 100% Goofy, dopey, and of minor intelligence. Orks belong in a fantasy setting, not sci-fi. They would never even begin to keep up with the technology curve. Guns would frighten them away... But even on that note I'll concede that they have been given a prominent place in the 40k galaxy. As they are written, so let them be."
Da fraq did I just read?
Not only do orks belong in 40K they have been here since the very beginning... nothing in 40K makes more sense than a space ork, even backed with logical scientific reasoning (aside from red blood) to explain why they exist, where they came from, why they think the way they do and so on. The fact that orks are staple and reliable apocalypse armies, and are still quite strong despite the sucker punch assault armies took, while simultaneously proving that despite their horrible ballistics, they are still dangerous on the right side of a gun...
So I ask this question: Are orks too silly for 40K? or do people need to re-evaluate the threat to the 40K universe that is orky?
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Anyway, Orks are funny to us. They aren't funny to the people they kill and enslave or exterminate.
Hey, I actually agree with you here. This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issue perfectly.
It's kind of like watching nature. Tigers and bears can be cute and people go "d'aww" - they'd still murder the feth outta anything they consider prey or a threat. Orks are the same, in a way, just that they're more like an army of brutal psychopaths who talk funny.
I dunno, football hooli- Orks are pretty scary from where I'm standing. ^^;
Whoever made that comment about Orks being scared of guns and being behind on the technology curve either hasn't been paying attention or is just trolling. Like the guy I used to know who insisted Elves in fantasy should be less than a foot tall and make toys.
I suppose they are entitled to hate all they want, as everytime I've watched a game between orks and tau, orks won everytime lol... hell I'd laugh if that were the case when the new tau dex hits... but all the wargaming aside, have they never read the fluff?
Seriously, orks are some of the meanest most destructive, quite possibly THE most destructive race in the universe. I've read in places where several different space marine races went around a system/galaxy because it was ork territory... and as we all know, spesh mehrines are ded 'ard, so whats that say? lol
I just get ticked off when the one race everyone says is more of a novelty codex also gets the "doesnt belong" treatment... Im mean just because their xenos have pansy blue skin and classify roles out of geneology rather than whoever is the biggest and the strongest, doesnt mean an ancient race is any worse than them...
heres a quote I found regarding orks logically, even taking a nod at the ork codex quote where the eldar found them resourceful: "I don't know what any of you are talking about...The universe is a wonderful place. There is always plenty to eat, freedom to follow your own pursuit of happiness, it is hardly a place of hopeless despair...at least if you are an Ork.
The Orks are the quintessential race in the 40k galaxy. With a prodigious birth rate (and "kultur" that accepts war as a necessity) the orks are depicted as the most economically viable and stable civilization period. The ork codex sums it up in the quote in which the eldar recognized the strong culture of the orks, knowing no stress or angst, yet being despised as crude or uncivilized by other races standards.
Life as an Ork in the 40k universe is to live in a perpetual golden age where you fulfill your dreams as a freebooting pirate, dare-devil racer, runtherder or even a squig farmer! Each individual is limited only by his ambition. Even gretchen who are arguably second class citizens of the ork empire can follow aptitudes for medicinal work, mekanical repair, or munition work.
To live as an Ork is to look at a galaxy set upon all sides by innumerable horrors...and have a good hearty larf.
That is why I love the Orks. Once the Imperium crumbles, Eldar become extinct and other races fail and fade from the annals of history, the Orks can usher in a new age of unmatched prosperity and put and end to all this grimdark nonsense"
The ork codex sums it up in the quote in which the eldar recognized the strong culture of the orks, knowing no stress or angst, yet being despised as crude or uncivilized by other races standards.
That was said by only one Eldar philosopher and I doubt his views are accepted by the rest of his people. Seeing as he's called perverse.
That is why I love the Orks. Once the Imperium crumbles, Eldar become extinct and other races fail and fade from the annals of history, the Orks can usher in a new age of unmatched prosperity and put and end to all this grimdark nonsense"
It will still be grimdark for everyone else except the Orks. I don't see grimdark as nonsense as long as it isn't stupid grimdark( I classify grimdark in that it makes it seem that people aren't living lives in 40k) and makes sense.
just had to post this... everytime I play my orks I listen to this song, its about as pumping up orky a song as you can get: Cyborg Killer (Dethklok) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CL-SQXBJAA
I mean I get grimdark is a matter of perspective, but orks can operate on any level of that spectrum... you could have a video depicting an ork having tea time with SGT Slaughter on youtube all the way to an R-rated movie depicting orks as a blood thirsty race that will murder you in front of your family, eat you in front of said family, then make your family eat parts of you out of threat of killing your children... considering how evil people can be in real life, I'd say thats about as grimdark as it gets
Space Marine pretty much puts them both in a slightly numerous light, but then you see the destruction, then you begin listening to the audio of everyone being butchered for fun, all the depressing stories, and then you realize that from the Orks prospective, it's all good fun.
With respect for the OP, the above snippets he cited were in response to another poster claiming how the Tau did not fit for such and such reason, and were ( IMO since it was not my posts) intended as a sarcastic/ironic response, and not one to take seriously
Orks have been in the setting from the begining hell I still have my incrdibly lethal lead minis, but orginaly they were alot more comical then now, 3rd ed did alot to make them more techno-barbaric, and lest colorful cartoony villans.
Space Marine pretty much puts them both in a slightly numerous light, but then you see the destruction, then you begin listening to the audio of everyone being butchered for fun, all the depressing stories, and then you realize that from the Orks prospective, it's all good fun.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: With respect for the OP, the above snippets he cited were in response to another poster claiming how the Tau did not fit for such and such reason, and were ( IMO since it was not my posts) intended as a sarcastic/ironic response, and not one to take seriously
Orks have been in the setting from the begining hell I still have my incrdibly lethal lead minis, but orginaly they were alot more comical then now, 3rd ed did alot to make them more techno-barbaric, and lest colorful cartoony villans.
can we really assume that though? I mean look at the poll... there are at least three people who think orks are too silly for 40K, in a small form this proves that the comments can be taken either way... I personally feel that no such comment could be made about any race let alone orks... they are all unique and serve a purpose to perpetuate the cycle of death and blood, orks especially since it takes the destruction of an entire planet to effectively remove their ability to repopulate.
I actually came by some third edition stuff in a trade, i think like an ork, a boss and a couple grots... love the models to death!
Poll is indicitive, Orks are one of the most well loved of all of the races, and their one dimensional love of destruction is a welcome addition to offset the endless complex machinations of the other races.
you could make a poll titled the earth is flat, and there will always be a few people that will say "yes it is", internet polls are just like all other polls, mainly useful for stringing laundry up on.
And I am pretty certain the comments that got you all up in arms were intended for the troll in that thread, myself I love my orks, and my tau, and my guard, and even my marine malevolents, stop trying to be divisive and just embrace the hobby as a whole.
Cause every part of 40k is important to its setting.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: you could make a poll titled the earth is flat, and there will always be a few people that will say "yes it is", internet polls are just like all other polls, mainly useful for stringing laundry up on.
And I am pretty certain the comments that got you all up in arms were intended for the troll in that thread, myself I love my orks, and my tau, and my guard, and even my marine malevolents, stop trying to be divisive and just embrace the hobby as a whole.
Cause every part of 40k is important to its setting.
Since when was I being devisive? I embraced that fact in that last comment... all the races are equally viable... again what I hate is hearing "Orks are the joke codex for the less serious player" and "You should just shelve your ork codex since they really arent a 40K army anyway..." this is horse manure, and anyone who makes such comments should have their nether region smacked with a frozen fish... you should stop being obtuse sir (big word for an ork player, I know) and understand that I made this thread as an attempt to see just how many other people out there feel a particular way about orks
Not only do orks belong in 40K they have been here since the very beginning...
There is a point though: if 40k had been as serious/grimdark from the beginning as it is now, and Orks were added in later, after most other similar 'funny' elements were filtered out or never existed...people would complain that they ruin the setting.
However as things stand, Orks are way iconic to 40k.
Obtuse ..huh, ok, well my devisive comment was based on the dismisal of the explanation of the responses that incited this thread, were ment as sarcasm/ironic in the context of that thread, and not as a attack against a beloved race.
And that when stated the response was, since the poll indicates some people think that way, then the again above stated snippets from another thread could/or likely be a true statement and a attack on a beloved race.
Funny thing about typed statements is its hard to read tone, so usually its better to err on the side of caution, until stated otherwise.
And just to be fully clear on my stance, I believe the Orks are a wonderful addition to the setting always have been always will..yay party on garth!
LOL, so much racism and truth in this post... I like it
Anyway, to the OP: people call Orks silly because they are the only race/ faction ( beside Space Wolves and various Guardsmen ) who love to tell a joke from time to time.
Orks are very serious threat to the galaxy, maybe they are funny and stupid but gather bunch of them in one place and you can stomp everything in front of you.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And just to be fully clear on my stance, I believe the Orks are a wonderful addition to the setting always have been always will..yay party on garth!
No misunderstanding here... FUNGUS BEER ALL AROUND!!!! suffice it to say I think an ork would beat a space wolf in a drinking contest... I just had another idea for a thread lmao
The unstoppable barbarian horde at the gates, with technology none of us understand, brutally effective tactics, impossibly durable bodies, and a culture so focused around war that "war!" is their rallying call. They are so numerous as to be without number, and they will not stop until the entire galaxy is covered in an all-consuming war.
Orks are fun. What is not to like about a race of barbaric creatures for whom simple belief in a thing makes it true?
They are the epitome of that person who is dumb as a rock but for some reason still manages to come out on top without even knowing it.
They are the one race that should never have survived natural selection, but somehow through sheer force of will alone actually have a shot of conquering the galaxy.
Orks are the absolute definition of the darkness of the 40k universe. Their existence underlines the fact that no matter how smart you are, no matter how organized or well equipped, it is all for nothing as even these idiots will tear down your gates and leave destruction in their wake.
I actually think the current depiction of Orks is the best. They have silly undertones and internal interactions, but are no longer just purely wacky and lovable buffoons. Rather they're somewhat similar to the Joker from the Dark Knight. They'll make you laugh, but can still be threatening while doing it.
The original Orks felt like that GW was afraid to elevate them to a true terror, that bit about non-Orks rising to prominence in their settlements, their more goofy appearances, and the stuff about slaves being respected and well-treated all felt as symptoms to this. Now, Orks will be wild and crazy in a humorous fashion but do so while destroying civilizations and enslaving millions.
It's the right balance between the humorous nature that the Orks were developed upon, and the grimdark of 40k itself. You can't have the most populous race in the galaxy that has been an enemy of mankind for 30,000 years be completely harmless.
kronk wrote: Anyone that thinks orks are silly should read Rynn's World and Helsreach to get a proper education.
Agreed. Both of these do a good job of presenting ork kulture. Also worth a look are Yarrick (where the Imperial Guard's tacticians get outwitted by the orks) and The Siege of Castellax (where even the Iron Warriors are taken aback by orkish indifference to casualties).
Spoiler:
As an aside, my own appreciation goes out to CL Werner for making specific, unmistakable reference, to Deff Sqwadron in this book
Though there have been some regrettable exceptions, the Orks have been presented as humorous in three ways, all of which are compatible with the 'GrimDark':
Individual orks doing something that a sympathetic character regards as stupid and foolish. This covers a lot of scenes in a lot of fluff, with orks fighting each other, shooting wildly and inaccurately, or other typically orky things that are just senseless and dumb to humans (or Space Marines).
Things that the reader, who is not really too emotionally invested in the fates of random 40K bystanders, would find funny. For instance, we might find it funny that an ork uses a Shokk Attack Gun to teleport frenzied snotlings into a Leman Russ, but the poor guardsmen inside, blown apart as snotlings materialize inside the ammo hoppers, certainly do not.
Things that are funny to the orks. This can include things that are funny to the reader, but also, things that aren't necessarily funny to the reader. We might not find it humorous when an Ork Nob squishes a marine's helmeted head like a grape, but the nob probably does.
The orks are seldom presented, except in individual acts, as mentioned above, as being perceived by ANYONE in the 40K universe as 'funny', and never 'silly'.
The orks are one of the few 'forces' in Warhammer 40,000 who can enjoy the 'eternal war' narrative themselves. Most of the forces are horrified by this conflict, and only striving for survival, or driven by other motives, or too grim and sombre about warfare. Those few forces who do deliberately seek out bloodshed are largely too 'alien' to really 'enjoy' it. Bloodletters might seek eternal war, but is a daemon composed of rage and bloodlust really 'having a laugh?" I think it's one of the reasons why Orks are so popular with so many gamers. You can play an army of 'little plastic men' who enjoy the game as much as you do. If they were real, they would still want to be in the endless, constant battles that we put them into anyway. You can laugh as your orks get blown up, knowing the other orks would be laughing just as much as you do. Not the sentiment that you would hear from your Eldar.
Actually, Orks were insinuated to be the first species that humans ran in to upon leaving the solar system . And it's also insinuated that when we finally get the tech to leave the galaxy, Orks will be there wherever we go afterwards.
There will always be Orks, and there will always be war. They have already won.
right, a race of gestalt pyschic-technology weilding muscle bound aliens that can reach the size of dreadnaughts and reproduce at an alarming rate are just silly...
orks are one of the best written, if not the best written, xenos..
seriously, the whole gestault psychic nature of the entire race is pretty clever fluff for a game, and fits the 40k universe very well.
Melissia wrote: Actually, Orks were insinuated to be the first species that humans ran in to upon leaving the solar system . And it's also insinuated that when we finally get the tech to leave the galaxy, Orks will be there wherever we go afterwards.
There will always be Orks, and there will always be war. They have already won.
There's no real evidence that Orks exist in other galaxies. Rather, they appear to be all over the galaxy no matter where humanity goes. Big difference.
Harriticus wrote: There's no real evidence that Orks exist in other galaxies.
The Imperium and humanity in general sent probes out beyond the galaxy. Everywhere the probes went, they still received Ork transmissions from where they were going.
Interestingly, to whoever said that Orks should never have survived natural selection, they didn't.
The Orks as we know them were created by the Old Ones (we think - the Orks just call them the Brain Boyz) out of an extinct race known as the Krork. We don't know why the Krork died out. Maybe they just didn't have the psychic thing down that lets the Orks form Waaghs and use teknology, but the Brain Boyz fixed that.
Furyou Miko wrote: Interestingly, to whoever said that Orks should never have survived natural selection, they didn't.
The Orks as we know them were created by the Old Ones (we think - the Orks just call them the Brain Boyz) out of an extinct race known as the Krork. We don't know why the Krork died out. Maybe they just didn't have the psychic thing down that lets the Orks form Waaghs and use teknology, but the Brain Boyz fixed that.
Who said krork was extinct? As far as we know krork is just older dialect of orks.
Orks prefer to kill each other over other races and they are the most dominant race in the galaxy if that doesn't prove orks truly are the best then I don't know what will.
Furyou Miko wrote: Interestingly, to whoever said that Orks should never have survived natural selection, they didn't.
The Orks as we know them were created by the Old Ones (we think - the Orks just call them the Brain Boyz) out of an extinct race known as the Krork. We don't know why the Krork died out. Maybe they just didn't have the psychic thing down that lets the Orks form Waaghs and use teknology, but the Brain Boyz fixed that.
Who said krork was extinct? As far as we know krork is just older dialect of orks.
Orks prefer to kill each other over other races and they are the most dominant race in the galaxy if that doesn't prove orks truly are the best then I don't know what will.
Well, it helps that killing each other is their form of reproduction.
A race that is completely and entirely useless. Tau do not have *any* purpose. Tau do not have *any* saying in the galaxy and its development. Every other race laughs at their useless blue faces.
They are simply jealous. That's why.
Orks perfectly fit to 40k. They personify chaos - not Chaos, chaos. They are the second-mightiest race in the entire universe if they would combine their strength, but due to them being so disorganized, they cannot reach that goal.
Harriticus wrote: There's no real evidence that Orks exist in other galaxies.
The Imperium and humanity in general sent probes out beyond the galaxy. Everywhere the probes went, they still received Ork transmissions from where they were going.
No, it was in the Galaxy. I remember that same quote.
Nothing has ever left the Galaxy. The distance between galaxies is incalculably vast and it has taken the Tyranids Millennium to traverse it.
Nothing has ever left the Galaxy. The distance between galaxies is incalculably vast and it has taken the Tyranids Millennium to traverse it.
I think hat's incorrect, actually, as the C'tan were created at the same time the universe was, thus making then the only corporeal creature that has yet travelled the universe.
Ideally its like everyone has stated thus far; be they super-toasters, umies, spesh mehreens, spoiky mehreens, twiggy 'fings, anything and everything, the orks have fought it and in many cases, smashed the crap out of it...
everyone keeps using rynns world as and example and a perfect example it is... in fact, most books have civilized races on the brink of extinction because of continuous war from orks... the best part is, many people never get tired of reading about a new warboss or big mek despite them all being fundamentally the same character...
it is these many reasons why I cannot wait for the new ork dex to hit. I want more " so crazy, it just might work brutality" and unicycle-riding orks powered by squig juice firing guns that use fingernails as ammunition, resulting in a new form of atomic energy so powerful it will make the chaos gods crap themselves... you cant beat that no matter how many guns your storm raven can fire... not on table top and certainly not in fluff...
Second mightiest race? The only thing that keeps Orks from stomping everyone else is bad animosity rolls. Even if theoretically the Horus Heresy had never happened, the Emperor was still alive, and humanity had undergone 10,000 years of technological advancement and prosperity the Orks would probably still be the biggest threat if they could theoretically unify.
Honestly though, why would they? As it stands they have a lot of diversity in who they get to fight with. If Orks had philosophers I'd think they keep other races alive intentionally for having multiple choices for opponents.
Amaya wrote: Second mightiest race? The only thing that keeps Orks from stomping everyone else is bad animosity rolls. Even if theoretically the Horus Heresy had never happened, the Emperor was still alive, and humanity had undergone 10,000 years of technological advancement and prosperity the Orks would probably still be the biggest threat if they could theoretically unify.
Well, I can agree to that, they could easily overthrow most planets / systems. Their downfall is not being able to hold against gods, let alone C'tan. Though their biggest threat would be some kind of bio-weapon that specifically targeted their shrooms...wouldn't that make them unable to reproduce anymore?
Are Orks silly? Yes. Which is why I enjoy playing against them.
There is nothing funnier than watching my opponent systematically take out half his army with a single Big Mek armed with a Shokk Attack Gun. The scatter dice hated him that game but man did we have fun. Too silly for 40K? Please. In the grimdark future there is only war. And lolz.
Backfire wrote: There is a point though: if 40k had been as serious/grimdark from the beginning as it is now, ....
There lies the bigger problem, I think: This perception that 40K is a 'serious' setting.
'Grimdark' doesn't make it serious. Quite the opposite. It's like all those end of the world movies, like Armageddon or The Core, which are entertaining in no small part because of just how over the top and ridiculous they are.
40K is not a serious setting. It's not as blatantly silly as it was in RT or 2nd edition, but the silliness now is just in how over the top everything is rather than in deliberately amusing writing. It's a caricature of war, and human nature.
So yes, Orks are silly. Too silly, in a game that takes tropes taken from every dim and dark corner of scifi, fantasy and action cinema, pumps them full of steroids and spits them out onto the tabletop?
Lets counter with the Farsight story,.. since orks are nothing to worry about commander farsight didnt decide to dedicate his life to eradicate this threat that nearly overran a large part of the Tau Empire...
Nah, Orks are nothing....
kronk wrote: Anyone that thinks orks are silly should read Rynn's World and Helsreach to get a proper education.
Or read about Armagaddon,.. Lol, entire regiments of Imperial Guards lost,.. largest part of the planet got stomped,..twice,.. Space Marine chapters lost whole companies,... IMO easily the most incredible feat by Orks.. (as far as i have read fluff)
And yes, Rynns world was impressive as well,.. though less of an impact on the Imperium then Armageddon.. But yeah, almost whiping out the Crimson fist is an impressive feat.
Space Marine pretty much puts them both in a slightly numerous light, but then you see the destruction, then you begin listening to the audio of everyone being butchered for fun, all the depressing stories, and then you realize that from the Orks prospective, it's all good fun.
Amaya wrote: Second mightiest race? The only thing that keeps Orks from stomping everyone else is bad animosity rolls. Even if theoretically the Horus Heresy had never happened, the Emperor was still alive, and humanity had undergone 10,000 years of technological advancement and prosperity the Orks would probably still be the biggest threat if they could theoretically unify.
Well, I can agree to that, they could easily overthrow most planets / systems. Their downfall is not being able to hold against gods, let alone C'tan. Though their biggest threat would be some kind of bio-weapon that specifically targeted their shrooms...wouldn't that make them unable to reproduce anymore?
Theres no way to produce a compound like in the quantities you'd need to exterminate all orcs.
And not holding against gods? What gives you this idea? They draw psychic power without even needing to interect with warp in any meaningful method, The combined psychic power of a full blown waagh is like that of a gods.
Harriticus wrote: There's no real evidence that Orks exist in other galaxies.
The Imperium and humanity in general sent probes out beyond the galaxy. Everywhere the probes went, they still received Ork transmissions from where they were going.
No, it was in the Galaxy. I remember that same quote.
Nothing has ever left the Galaxy. The distance between galaxies is incalculably vast and it has taken the Tyranids Millennium to traverse it.
You do know that there is another galaxy currently *inside* the Milky Way galaxy, right? There are other galaxies that are only 10-25 thousand light-years away from the Milky Way. The inter-galactic distances are really not that large.
I'd say that in a universe that features armies made up of the following:
Humans employing tactics of warfare dating as far as those developed by the end of WWII
Giant cyber-Jesuses (Jesi?)
Giant cyber-Antichrists
Daemons with boobies
Magic Ninja Elves
Sado-Masochist Magic Ninja Elves
Anime fish-cow aliens
A species of bugs ripping off every single alien bug species in sci-fi ever Secret police who wear big shiny armour decorated with the easily recognisable symbol of the secret police
Nuns with guns
Then war-crazy humanoid fungi doesn't sound too silly.
You missed out the emo space vampires with their bloodfists, bloodtalons, bloodswords, and bloody blood missiles of blood, and the space-Viking wolfmen who ride around on giant wolves that are actually other space-Viking wolfmen...
The Orks are not the silly race of xenos that they once were. When 40k was first getting started and even in second edition the orks were pretty damn silly. They used to be parodies of WWII Germans in many ways.
I think it was when GorkaMorka was released that they retconned Orks to being fungus/spore reproducing creatures.
Originally, Orks reproduced when they became feral and half of them developed marsupial pouches. These feral orks would be left behind when the main Ork clans moved away. This was specifically cited as the reason why Orks were found everywhere.
All this was presented in the somewhat wacky book "Waaargh the Orks" by Stillman and Ansell. It has all been retconned away now, and perhaps for the better but at one time (for many years actually) Orks were quite silly and wacky.
Beyond genetic aberrations with more or less steroids, emo aliens and archetypical bugs from outer space, orks-are-40k.
Actually it may look silly, but the whole ork species is worked out with much thought, and none less seious than the genetic and biological building of a space marine, the eldar connexion with wraithbone and souls, the necrontyr transference to necrons, the warp related human psychic capabilities, the ruinous powers, the hive mind and its task subspecies or the mere existence of tau.
Fact (fluff) is orks are actually the somewhat unfinished top end of life evolution in the galaxy. They have spiritual connexion with the warp and the species as a whole, a divine manifestation in the warp that dwarfs every other one, an inborn scientific knowledge, specific adaptation subspecies which make them a self contained ecosystem, vast psychic capabilities, physical endurance and immunity beyond all known alive species and an inbuilt evolution system which answers to stress with a betterment in response, both physical and intellectual, if in their very own way. Moreover, they are the most immune to spiritual corruption of all alive species (save c'tans?).
That they build physics defying machines and crude technological devices, have a proprietary sense of humour, lack an evident ontological interest and an abundance of language signs does not make them silly.
In fact they have a quite rich communication system, based partially on context, and ork glyphs can work as do Japanese, with both a direct meaning and a phonetical one. Their instinctive knowledge of technology and their apparent inability to theorize does not make them silly; fact is they're able to interstellar controlled travel (they just don't use it that much 'cos they just don't care to). They are imaginative enough as to combine biology and technology in every way they can their hands to work in. Orks have weaponry humans have not been able to replicate, as the shokk gun (imagine it porting bombs and not snots), and a working knowledge of tractor beams to permit using them on colossal objects (space hulks, roks).
Melissia wrote: Orks are only silly when looked at superficially.
No, they're pretty silly when you start digging down as well.
The issue is simply whether or not that's actually a problem.
If you refuse to actually see the serious side of it, yeah, that's true. But I don't take such a superficial look at the race.
Just looking at the serious side of them (or 40K in general) is equally superficial, if not more so. It is precisely GW's penchant for grim-dark hyperbole that makes for most of the amusement. That's the joke. Not dissimilar to how Nazis dialed up to 11 do make for some very fine silly villains.
A kidney-stab with a 4" knife is serious stuff. Dozends of Aliens getting eviscerated by weaponized 4' chainsaws is silly.
A single guy getting shot is serious stuff. A genocide of a billion worlds conducted by rampaging toadstools with a cockney accent is silly.
It's so good to see that people are united in Ork love :-)
Now I'm going to kill 10000 of them in SM. and 10000 of them in DOW....with just one guy....(*sarcasm sign*)
Hey, I acknowledge that the silly side exists. I just believe that you only really see it when you look at it from an outsider's point of view. When looking at Orks from an in-universe point of view, they suddenly become a little bit less funny and hellofalot more scary.
and even the emperor a lot.. they all do silly stuff,
even necrons now... oh you want to be real boys, err tombkings, now? how cute!
somehow a race of orks that laugh and make jokes as they dismember whole solar systems is both funny and terrifying to me, but only because im reading about it...
all the stuff in 40k is really only funny because of our omnipresent viewpoint
Melissia wrote: Hey, I acknowledge that the silly side exists. I just believe that you only really see it when you look at it from an outsider's point of view. When looking at Orks from an in-universe point of view, they suddenly become a little bit less funny and hellofalot more scary.
insaniak wrote: There is no serious side. 40k is a beer and pretzels game with a deliberately over the top, cheesy setting.
This isn't high literature with some hidden meaning if only we analyse it deeply enough.
I agree with 40K being a beer and pretzels GAME insaniak, but I have to disagree as well that the 40K universe has no serious side... canon or not some of the most brutal and scariest stories I've read came from 40K... the games? rediculously serious... you have to collect resources to stop the genocide of an entire chapter od space marines, which is pretty serious. Even the Ultramarines movie, while attempting to have a scene or two of light-hearted banter quickly gets dumped when you have genetically created super soldiers getting crushed by their corrupted brothers in the most brutal ways possible... plus the addition odd daemonic influence constantly beckoning to tear a persons mind apart, the sheer amount of lives lost and blood shed with every battle...
I even had a guy who named each one of his 356 guardsmen models. A few did have similar names, but each one had a short back story about their history and decorations they'd earned, which is again, about as serious as it can get
Beyond genetic aberrations with more or less steroids, emo aliens and archetypical bugs from outer space, orks-are-40k.
Actually it may look silly, but the whole ork species is worked out with much thought, and none less seious than the genetic and biological building of a space marine, the eldar connexion with wraithbone and souls, the necrontyr transference to necrons, the warp related human psychic capabilities, the ruinous powers, the hive mind and its task subspecies or the mere existence of tau.
Fact (fluff) is orks are actually the somewhat unfinished top end of life evolution in the galaxy. They have spiritual connexion with the warp and the species as a whole, a divine manifestation in the warp that dwarfs every other one, an inborn scientific knowledge, specific adaptation subspecies which make them a self contained ecosystem, vast psychic capabilities, physical endurance and immunity beyond all known alive species and an inbuilt evolution system which answers to stress with a betterment in response, both physical and intellectual, if in their very own way. Moreover, they are the most immune to spiritual corruption of all alive species (save c'tans?).
That they build physics defying machines and crude technological devices, have a proprietary sense of humour, lack an evident ontological interest and an abundance of language signs does not make them silly.
In fact they have a quite rich communication system, based partially on context, and ork glyphs can work as do Japanese, with both a direct meaning and a phonetical one. Their instinctive knowledge of technology and their apparent inability to theorize does not make them silly; fact is they're able to interstellar controlled travel (they just don't use it that much 'cos they just don't care to). They are imaginative enough as to combine biology and technology in every way they can their hands to work in. Orks have weaponry humans have not been able to replicate, as the shokk gun (imagine it porting bombs and not snots), and a working knowledge of tractor beams to permit using them on colossal objects (space hulks, roks).
And datz it ladz! Look at thiz git, iz thinkin he be a brainboy!
off topic,
But seriously, how awesome would it be to play the rise of Ghazkull in chapter one,.. and then jump to Armageddon XD!!! There you wil smash and stomp your ways through chapters and in the end you fight against Yarrick ... makes me drool!
It's just a matter of perspective. What's hilarious to an Ork is horrifying to a human. I actually think the way Orks are portrayed is one of my favourite depictions of the culture of an alien species in SFF, especially when compared to other"warrior" civilisations like, say, Klingons. Orks don't have poets, they don't write operas about their biggest battles because for them a big battle is the cue to immediately go and prepare for an even bigger one to top the last one. They are almost entirely geared around the preparation for and execution of warfare (even the Orks who carry out "civilian" duties are still warriors) and they fight for the sake of fighting because it's in their very genes. Orks are no joke!
However, it's also valid to say they're silly even when they're conquering entire worlds. That's another thing I liek about them, you can view them as seriously or comically as you like. I think that as other factions' fluff gets more po-faced they carry on the tongue-in-cheek nature of the earlier stuff, where the grimdark was so OTT it couldn't help becoming comical.
I would suggest anyone who wants to see Orks up to serious business reads the short story Permafrost in Ghostmaker and the "Greenskin" chapter in Brothers of the Snake. Even if you don't read any other part of the books, even if you've never read a Gaunt's Ghosts story before, they show Orks from a human and Space Marine perspective respectively and I have to say, I love Dan Abnett's portrayal of them. If he wrote a full-length novel with Orks as the antagonists I would be ridiculously happy.
WarlordRob117 wrote: I agree with 40K being a beer and pretzels GAME insaniak, but I have to disagree as well that the 40K universe has no serious side... canon or not some of the most brutal and scariest stories I've read came from 40K... the games? rediculously serious... you have to collect resources to stop the genocide of an entire chapter od space marines, which is pretty serious.
But that's exactly the point... it's deliberately over the top, to the point of absurdity. Some of the stories are written in a serious fashion, but that just highlights the absurdity of it all.
And really, I wouldn't be holding up the Ultramarines movie as hard evidence of anything other than how badly a studio can screw up a licence to print money...
insaniak wrote: But that's exactly the point... it's deliberately over the top, to the point of absurdity. Some of the stories are written in a serious fashion, but that just highlights the absurdity of it all.
I think the crucial distinction is that 40k is serious as to itself, i.e., characters inside the setting would not get the joke. But for us, real people enjoying this as entertainment, one has to acknowledge that it's a ludicrous fantasy. It's not that Orks aren't scary opponents for other denizens of 40k; it's that for us real people they are hilarious.
This thread for some reason reminded me of an old story from 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis.
Spoiler:
Griznak stuck his head up over the lip of the gully. A bolter shell whined past his cheek. He ignored it and studied the scene. Yes, the bridge over that acid river was still there. Yes, the humies in red armour were still there too.
Another shell ricocheted off the ground in front of him and whizzed over his helmet. Griznak dropped back down into the gully and surveyed his weary ladz contemptuously. There were more than a dozen towering Goff warriors in the gully. A couple of dozen Gretchin accompanied them. Griznak wasn't sure exactly how many - he couldn't count that high.
"Call yourself Orks?" he asked in his most sarcastic tone.
"Nar, Boss, we call ourselves Gretchin," replied Buggi the Gretchin. Griznak cuffed the little greenskin on his large pointed ear. The Gretchin yelped and scuttled down the gully, trying to get out of reach. Griznak applied a touch of his hob-nailed boot to Buggi's backside to help him on his way.
"I wozn't talkin to yer," he growled. "I woz talkin' to da ladz."
The rest of the Gretchin clutched their autoguns tighter and shuffled their feet in relief. A few of them giggled nervously. They had long ago learned that having a Goff Boss annoyed at them was a very unpleasant experience. Griznak turned his angry red-eyed gaze back on his fellow Goffs. If it was possible for a mob of huge, burly green-skinned warriors armed with axes and bolt pistols to look sheepish then these Orks looked sheepish. They inspected their steel toe caps as if they might fund a succulent squig just under their boots.
The row of horned helmets that pointed at him reminded Griznak of a circle of moonbison he had once seen when hunting back on Jagga. They always turned in a circle and presented their horns to any threat. That was when they were at their most dangerous. Hopefully the same would be true of his ladz. Maybe that idea was a sign from Gork and Mork Griznak thought. Maybe the favour of the two god brothers was about to be restored to the Waaagh-Ghazghkull. It certainly had been conspicuous by its absence recently. Maybe their fortunes were about to change. The gods knew they needed it.
"Call yerselves Goffs?" Griznak enquired angrily. "I've seen quigz wiv more backbone."
"Dat ain't fair, Boss," ventured Grund. "Da humies at da bridge woz tuff. Dey woz da big wunz. Da wunz in red armour."
"Dat's why dey woz so fast, Boss," added Mazdak. "Everybody knowz dat a lik of red paint makes things go fasta."
"We only came back for a bit of a rest!" added Grund.
"Yer, we woz tired!" Mazdak yawned conspicuously.
"Sharrit!" bellowed Griznak. "I don't wanna 'ear any hexcuses! Ya didn't take da bridge. Dat's all I know. Ya couldn't even take a bridge from a bunch of stinkin' humies! Maybe yer gettin soft!"
He shook his head sadly. "And ya call yerselves Goffs. I dunno. More like a bunch a bleedin' Gretchin if ya ask me."
"Dat ain't fair, Boss. We izn't no Gretchin. We woz just surprised, dat's all," said Grund.
"Yer, surprised," agreed Mazdak. "Surprised dat dey started shootin' at uz."
Grund glared at his fellow Goff. It had all been going well till Mazdak opened his mouth. Griznak clenched his fist impatiently. In the distance he could hear a warbuggy moving towards the front line. The 'ere-we-go, 'ere-we-go chant of its passengers rang out over the sands, audible even at this distance. A few of the Orks fired their gbolters into the air enthusiastically. Just for a moment Griznak wished he were with them.
This was not what he had expected when the power of the Waaagh filled him, and he had joined with his fellows under the war banner of Ghazghkull Thraka, the Great Warlord. He had expected lots of loot and good fighting. He had expected to give the humies a good seeing-to. He had not expected the stubborn resistance of the defenders or the enormous casualties suffered by both sides.
Griznak didn't mind the death. He was an Ork. The senseless waste of life didn't appall him. He applauded it. He lived to fight. Fighting was what life was all about. Death was part of the fighting, everybody knew that, from the youngest Wildboy to the oldest Nob. Every Ork accepted death the way he accepted the possibility of a buggy accident. It was what happened to someone else. And if it did happen to you, so what? Your soul went back to Gork and Mork to be belched into another body so you could fight again.
No it wasn't that he feared death. It was that he was starting to get lonely. All his old drinking buddies were gone now. Zog Nosebiter had taken a bolter shell through the brain at the battle of Helsreach in the bitter hand-to-hand fighting round the dockyard cranes. That had surprised Griznak, he had always thought Zog's skull was thick enough to stop any shot. Gork knew there was little enough brain in there to hit.
Slugoff had been run over by one of those big humie tanks as he tried to climb up its tracks and drop a grenade into its turret. The sight of his body, crushed flat, with tread marks across its chest had been more than a little disturbing to look at, even for an Ork as battle-dhardened as Griznak.
Rogviler had gone down in hand-to-hand combat with some of those Rough Riders. An explosive-tipped lance had torn him apart. Who would have thought that those humies would have ridden their horses across the blazing sands? Who would have thought the horses could survive in these deserts of ash and slag? The terrible heat should have killed them yet it had not. Perhaps they had somehow been altered to survive here. Griznak wondered what they would taste like. He had long been of the opinion that horses were good for only one thing - eating.
Manurk had been killed at Hades in combat with old evil eye Yarrick himself. Griznak shuddered. It was said that Yarrick could kill an Ork just by looking at him. If it were true, Griznak would not be surprised. In this war many strange things happened. This was a terrible world.
Storms swallowed entire mobs of warriors. Rivers of corrosive chemicals ate Orks down to the bone. That was why the bridge was so important. It had to be taken so that the Orks could use it to scarper if things went wrong.
Griznak did not like the idea of scarpering, it implied that hings were going badly, that there was some need to retreat and re-group in order to fight another day. Such things should not happen during a Waaagh, memory that was rooted right down in his cells told him. Waaaghs were triumphs, where hordes of Orks and Gretchin overwhelmed their foes and enslaved worlds. Waaagh-Ghazghkull in particular should not fail, for Ghazghkull Thraka was the greatest Ork Warlord who had ever lived.
Yet something told Griznak that this was exactly what was happening. Somehow this vast desert world was defeating them. No longer did the towering hive cities fall easily to the onrushing horde. No longer did human armies crack and run before the relentless green tide. Reinforcements had started to arrive from off-world. The accursed Space Marines had dropped from orbit and turned the tide against the Waaagh. The factories of the hive cities had started to churn out tanks and guns and provisions for the human armies while the Orks starved and ran out of ammunition. The once shattered and demoralised human armies had reformed and re-grouped and were starting to carry the war to the Orks.
Griznak was low in the hierarchy of the Waaagh but somehow he knew all this, it haunted his dreams as it haunted the dreams of all the other Orks. He had a dim presentiment that his people were losing, and that was not an idea that he liked.
"Right, lissen!" he bellowed. All eyes turned on him. "We gotta take dat bridge. Once we got it we can nip over da river and give da humies a taste of bootleather. An' dis time we're gonna do it. No excuses! No maybes! No we can't do it, Boss. Dis time we is gonna grab it and 'old it an' I'll tell ya why? Cos I'm gonna lead yer and anybody who turns and runs is gonna taste my axe. Get the idea?"
"Yes, Boss," chorused Ork and Gretchin alike.
"Good! Coz you iz part of the Waaagh-Ghazghkull and you is gonna act like it. Now, get yer weapons ready and get ready ta leg it for da bridge. Gretchins give us coverin' fire, you ladz make sure yer axes iz sharp!"
Griznak surveyed his troops. They looked as ready as they ever would be. "Go!" he shouted.
The ladz threw themselves forward out of the gully. Almost immediately bolter shells started to whine around them. Griznak did not even flinch. He leaped forward, bolt pistol blasting, knowing that this time the bridge would be theirs.
This made me want to have Orks again. I can take them seriously
What is the sort of new "default" orc clan? It was Goffs in 2nd edition.
Is it one of these? Bad Moons, Goffs, Deathskulls, Blood Axes, Snakebites or Evil Sunz?
When I first saw Tau I didn't think they fit into 40k. They are too.. commie. Too bright and socialist. There's no grimdark in them at all. It feels like they sucked it all away.
They should bring back the Squats too. As IF the Squats only had one homeworld? Imperium has countless billions of worlds, the Squats have like a couple what?
Look through the second edition artwork and stories, so grim and dark... it's amazing. The drawing style.. everything is so twisted and disfigured looking mostly, and gothic.
easysauce wrote: they are born as tough as SM's, and better at HTH
No they're not.
You're right. Orks are born BOTH tougher and stronger than space marines, who are born just common humans. SMs get extreme genetic and biological engineering to make them the aberrations they get to be when fully built. Orks on the other side grow naturally stronger. The mistake is to compare SMs with Orks when the equivalent should be skarboyz or nobz, who are naturally evolved through fighting and evolution.
Melissia wrote: (And are also tougher, stronger, and more skilled at close combat than marines are)
Prove these statements.
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DOGGED wrote: You're right. Orks are born BOTH tougher and stronger than space marines, who are born just common humans. SMs get extreme genetic and biological engineering to make them the aberrations they get to be when fully built. Orks on the other side grow naturally stronger. The mistake is to compare SMs with Orks when the equivalent should be skarboyz or nobz, who are naturally evolved through fighting and evolution.
Yeah your attempts at misdirection have no sway over me.
It was said that they were born as tough as a Space Marine, aka the transhuman and not the mortal that might become one, and better at h2h.
Melissia wrote: (And are also tougher, stronger, and more skilled at close combat than marines are)
Prove these statements.
Sorry Melissia, you're wrong there, the only thing that Orks have on marines is initiative. There's even a direct comparison between Boyz and Marines in the 6th ed.
Orks, by default, are as tough as Space Marines outside of power armor, with multiple redundant organs of every kind, and capable of surviving wounds that even Marines can't (such as decapitation). With an adrenaline rush, they're just as strong as a Marine, as well, and they are instinctively skilled in close combat, and participate in such brawls and melees all their lives.
And that's the common boy. I wasn't referring to a mere slugga boy fresh out of his yoof, I was referring to a Nob.
Because of the way Orks develop over time and combat experience, a Nob has literally grown in size, strength, and durability until they can can take wounds that would send any but the toughest Space Marines out of action and keep fighting, and are least as strong as marines without an adrenaline rush (and far, FAR stronger with one, if they're not actually stronger without the need for such). Similarly, and have decades if not centuries of non-stop warfare exceeding even that which an Astartes would experience in the same time period (Orks don't even understand the concept of peace to begin with), leading them to have combat experience equal to that of an Astartes. That combined with their instinctual understanding of combat that gives them an edge over the average Astartes. And all of this despite the fact that I'm including the bonus from powered armor here. For bonus points, these are also represented quite well in the tabletop as well as the lore.
Every single one of the Ork codices (such as from the 2008 codex, where it routinely and repeatedly emphasizes how tough Orks are, to the point of them surviving decapitation as long as their head is put back on their body (or a different Ork's body for that matter), but especially goes in to detail about how hard they are to fething kill in page four), and also mentioned and included in BL books such as Caves of Ice (Cain describes the Orks having impressive combat instincts similar to veteran soldiers, for example, and numerous times they have to go through overkill to try to make sure an Ork is really dead, or describe how an Ork keeps attacking even when any other creature would have been killed by then, as well as describing their immense brutish strength).
It's not exactly hidden knowledge or anything, it's a part of every single goddamned book on Orks.
And, again, the stats support this (using fifth edition stats here, since that's what I'm most familiar with). Marines and Orks have the same toughness score-- except Ork Nobz have twice as many wounds. Orks gain equal strength score on the charge as Marines, and Nobz have equal strength without it but gain an advantage in strength on the charge. And all three units have the same WS score, except Boyz and Nobz are far more capable of landing multiple blows in the same time period than Marines are even when given a similar loadout.
One of few the places where stats definitely reflect the lore, really.
From the propensity of Flash Gitz in most armies, I think it would have to be Bad Moons, lol. But I don't think they've had a poster-boy army since Andy with the Dredz left the company.
Look at the stats maybe? Fluff wise, marines cant survive decapitation. Also, there is a common picture of an ork charging still with multiple shots in its chest cavity, and it wasn't even a nob.
What's the argument here? Orks are incredibly tough creatures, and described that way in the fluff... the fluff also describes very small numbers of space marines consistently beating back orks. Their power armor gives them more strength or about equal strength to an ork boy (depending on where you read it)... but warbosses are certainly huge and badass compared to a single space marine.
Space Marines have the Emperor, that's why they rule.
You can't use statlines from the game to compare to fluff, there are very many discrepancies... game stats are doctored so that you have a balanced game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: having actually read more of the thread.... yes Orks are scary, if you are a Imperial Citizen 40,000 years in the future. If you are looking at their models on the tabletop, and reading their codex, it's pretty clear there's plenty of humor, more than any other race.
Melissia wrote: Orks, by default, are as tough as Space Marines outside of power armor
@Void, please tell me where it says that a space marine, kills an ork, outside of power armour, and with nothing but a close combat weapon, with the ork in perfect condition? That means no wounds to speak of, and the space marine can't use the environment to his advantage, this is a straight up brawl we are talking about here. As Melissia stated, she means a space marine without power armour on. This is rarely seen, and when it is, the space marine almost always has a type of ranged weapon with them.
There was an instance of Ork Kommandos overrunning and chopping Marines up with nothing but axes in one short story from White Dwarf. The Orks identified the weak points - knees, elbows, neck - and chopped them up, neat as neat. So that was Orks killing Marines in power armour. Yellow armour.
Void__Dragon wrote: I could show you a guardsman killing an Ork Boy by slamming the butt of his lasgun against his skull.
Would that suffice?
Please, I would actually like to see that. Im legit curious
Anyway...Orks are born for war. It's the only thing they can do right. They spend their entire, pretty short in most cases, life-time fighting. And when they aren't fighting, they are fighting each other. Orks can easily best your average Tactical Marine in a brawl, seeing as an Ork might be slower but for every Space Marine you have 5 Orks. Anyone remember back when Ork Choppas could pierce Power Armor on the TT?
Mind you, a proper equivalent for a Space Marine is a Nob. Ork Boyz are new Orks, and are better equivalents to Scout Marines or the like.
All we are seeing at the moment is an intense Space Marine superiority complex trying to show that Space Marines are better than everything else at anything, even if that thing is born and bred ONLY for that one thing.
Void__Dragon wrote: I could show you a guardsman killing an Ork Boy by slamming the butt of his lasgun against his skull.
Would that suffice?
I have a story where a Inquisitor kills a space marine with one puch, no powerfist. The space marine is wearing power armour. This space marine is in perfect shape too. Also no, as you said we need citation of something happening. A gaurdsman hitting an ork boy with a lasgun, isn't the same as a space marine now is it?
except that you are ignoring that Snikrot and Zagstruck (even though they claim boss status) are nobz for all intents and purposes.
To that end, here we have examples of two Nobz, one of which has countless IG dog-tags wrapped around his arms for trophies, and the other being a stormboy who has brought more pain alone to a majority of space marine armies, due to his free-booterz status, than any warboss.
Its hard to classify Grotsnik and Badrukk as they dont have a solid leadership basis, but the point is, there are several stories out there of Nobz doing just as much damage, if not more due to how numerous they are, to space marines (captain to scout) as warbosses.
The thing alot of those who are rallying against orks dont realize is orks cant be stopped. Once an ork has set his mind on something, rediculous things start to happen... using rationale to explain an irrational character has no relevance. Orks are the most destructive and constructive, the most resilient and attrition-tested, intelligent yet dumbest race in 40K existence...
these things alone prove a lack of silliness and a well-balanced, well-beloved race, that has just as much pull and noteriety as space marines.
except that you are ignoring that Snikrot and Zagstruck (even though they claim boss status) are nobz for all intents and purposes.
To that end, here we have examples of two Nobz, one of which has countless IG dog-tags wrapped around his arms for trophies, and the other being a stormboy who has brought more pain alone to a majority of space marine armies, due to his free-booterz status, than any warboss.
Its hard to classify Grotsnik and Badrukk as they dont have a solid leadership basis, but the point is, there are several stories out there of Nobz doing just as much damage, if not more due to how numerous they are, to space marines (captain to scout) as warbosses.
The thing alot of those who are rallying against orks dont realize is orks cant be stopped. Once an ork has set his mind on something, rediculous things start to happen... using rationale to explain an irrational character has no relevance. Orks are the most destructive and constructive, the most resilient and attrition-tested, intelligent yet dumbest race in 40K existence...
these things alone prove a lack of silliness and a well-balanced, well-beloved race, that has just as much pull and noteriety as space marines.
Melissia wrote: (And are also tougher, stronger, and more skilled at close combat than marines are)
Prove these statements.
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DOGGED wrote: You're right. Orks are born BOTH tougher and stronger than space marines, who are born just common humans. SMs get extreme genetic and biological engineering to make them the aberrations they get to be when fully built. Orks on the other side grow naturally stronger. The mistake is to compare SMs with Orks when the equivalent should be skarboyz or nobz, who are naturally evolved through fighting and evolution.
Yeah your attempts at misdirection have no sway over me.
It was said that they were born as tough as a Space Marine, aka the transhuman and not the mortal that might become one, and better at h2h.
Both statements have no basis to them.
Are you even remotely trying to be serious on this? Really?
Attempts at misdirection? Trying to have sway on you? Are you really meaning it? Don't get confused, I (and I guess a good lot of people) have absolutely no intention on having any sway over you. For my concern, you can freely go anywhere, think about anything and say what you want. I quite frankly could not care less about that. Neither I have any intention to even start looking for any citation, obscure or not, to support what is widely known as basic background information relating orks and the humans who are extensively modified to be space marines. I can't really believe you are even asking for it. Is there by chance any kind of study degree on 40k canon fluff anyway? Certainly all seriousness regarding 40k is to be debated with a healthy measure of informality (to say the least). It is a game after all. The moment someone gets zealous about it is the moment when someone becomes annoying instead of amusing.
Besides, an ork is naturally tougher and stronger than a human; it also makes him tougher and stronger than a space marine without all the armor and artificial augmentations, as he would still be a space marine. That there may be exceptions to this rule does not invalidate but just confirm it. Stop demanding quoting and just enjoy the talk; don't be the party spoiler. Finally, what WarlordRob117 said and Willhman supported, I support too. Melissia nailed it too, as Ascalam quite cheeringly remarked.
EDIT: And what Illuknisaa posted. A 10 years old space marine? Sooo... Where?
If you think Orks are "silly" try telling that to the inhabitants of the world they attack, I suspect they are pretty horrific. A massive muscle bound monster coated in blood roaring crazily holding a massive rusty buzz saw and a flamer, doesn't sound silly to me...
YUU 'UMMIES BE SESSY! UR BOSS BE DEAD UND ON A THRUUN AND NOT OUT FIGHTING!
*cough*
To keep things more on track, We are talking about warhammer 40k here Prks to silly? B*** please let us go back to the 80's and see the other ¨¨Laughable races they came up with¨ (not to mention art/models)
WarlordRob117 wrote: except that you are ignoring that Snikrot and Zagstruck (even though they claim boss status) are nobz for all intents and purposes.
Based on what? The tabletop stats? Stats mean nothing to me.
To that end, here we have examples of two Nobz, one of which has countless IG dog-tags wrapped around his arms for trophies, and the other being a stormboy who has brought more pain alone to a majority of space marine armies, due to his free-booterz status, than any warboss.
They aren't nobs, they are bosses, lol. At least, Zagstruk is, I dunno if Snikrot technically is one.
Snikrot has never even been mentioned as ever fighting Space Marines, to my recollection.
The only time Zagstruk is mentioned in the same breath as Space Marines is when a Dreadnought rips his leg off.
Neither indicate they are physically stronger than Marines.
Its hard to classify Grotsnik and Badrukk as they dont have a solid leadership basis, but the point is, there are several stories out there of Nobz doing just as much damage, if not more due to how numerous they are, to space marines (captain to scout) as warbosses.
Like?
The thing alot of those who are rallying against orks dont realize is orks cant be stopped. Once an ork has set his mind on something, rediculous things start to happen... using rationale to explain an irrational character has no relevance. Orks are the most destructive and constructive, the most resilient and attrition-tested, intelligent yet dumbest race in 40K existence...
And here we get the hyperbole that is the bread and butter of the Ork fans.
If they can't be stopped, why does Armageddon still stand?
these things alone prove a lack of silliness and a well-balanced, well-beloved race, that has just as much pull and noteriety as space marines.
Oh Orks aren't too silly for 40k. I've never argued that. They're actually one of my favorite factions.
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washout77 wrote: Please, I would actually like to see that. Im legit curious
Anyway...Orks are born for war. It's the only thing they can do right. They spend their entire, pretty short in most cases, life-time fighting. And when they aren't fighting, they are fighting each other. Orks can easily best your average Tactical Marine in a brawl, seeing as an Ork might be slower but for every Space Marine you have 5 Orks. Anyone remember back when Ork Choppas could pierce Power Armor on the TT?
Mind you, a proper equivalent for a Space Marine is a Nob. Ork Boyz are new Orks, and are better equivalents to Scout Marines or the like.
All we are seeing at the moment is an intense Space Marine superiority complex trying to show that Space Marines are better than everything else at anything, even if that thing is born and bred ONLY for that one thing.
I haven't seen any of your citations either...
For me to need a citation, I'd have to make a claim. The burden of proof isn't on me.
No one doubts that multiple Orks could best one Marine in close combat reliably.
But one Ork Boy against one Marine? Naw dude. Dude naw.
Anyway, IIRC that story was in the 5e rulebook, will find later.
Basic choppas are huge lumps of solid steel while chainsword of the asartes is a toothpick in comparizon.
So tell me, what are you trying to prove with this, other than that Ghazghkuull when he became the mightiest Warlord in the galaxy was younger than any Marine?
Ghazghkuull when he became a cool dude and became the size of a Dreadnought was not a Boy. In fact, he had his ass kicked in battle by Space Marines as a Boy.
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DOGGED wrote: Are you even remotely trying to be serious on this? Really?
I am always serious.
Attempts at misdirection? Trying to have sway on you? Are you really meaning it?
You just asked me that question.
Don't get confused, I (and I guess a good lot of people) have absolutely no intention on having any sway over you. For my concern, you can freely go anywhere, think about anything and say what you want. I quite frankly could not care less about that.
Then why did you make a red-herring?
Neither I have any intention to even start looking for any citation, obscure or not, to support what is widely known as basic background information relating orks and the humans who are extensively modified to be space marines. I can't really believe you are even asking for it. Is there by chance any kind of study degree on 40k canon fluff anyway? Certainly all seriousness regarding 40k is to be debated with a healthy measure of informality (to say the least). It is a game after all. The moment someone gets zealous about it is the moment when someone becomes annoying instead of amusing.
I'm not being zealous, I'm asking people to justify their claims with background material. Why do people here always get defensive when I want them to do so?
Besides, an ork is naturally tougher and stronger than a human; it also makes him tougher and stronger than a space marine without all the armor and artificial augmentations, as he would still be a space marine. That there may be exceptions to this rule does not invalidate but just confirm it. Stop demanding quoting and just enjoy the talk; don't be the party spoiler. Finally, what WarlordRob117 said and Willhman supported, I support too. Melissia nailed it too, as Ascalam quite cheeringly remarked.
EDIT: And what Illuknisaa posted. A 10 years old space marine? Sooo... Where?
So what you are saying is that Orks are stronger than a Space Marine, once you take away all of the qualities that make them Space Marines, while also relegating them to the status of ten year old boy? Gee, who'd of thunk it, lol.
No but really. Address the actual topic at hand. Are Ork Boys physically stronger than the transhuman Space Marines, not the human children they once were? Y/N, and if the former, please do me the courtesy of providing citations supporting that fact.
Hey, I'll even do your side an honor: I've recalled fluff that states that Ork Nobs are actually a little stronger than Marines. Fulgrim has a Marine character state as much. There, I've done some work for you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: I've always assumed Void_Dragon was posting in character. For further details, check out the thread on the Did an Ork choke the Emperor!?
But now I think he's just anti ork, and that makes me a sad Grot. :-(
'The only time Zagstruk is mentioned in the same breath as Space Marines is when a Dreadnought rips his leg off.
'
His legs were snipped off by a dread, true,
Same quote also says he chewed through the wiring systems of said dread until he incapacitated it, AFTER losing both legs and presumably a fair bit of blood
Yeah, he's that badass
Edit:
Personally i'd put an Ork Boy as FAR buffer than a human, but not as buff as a PA'd SM. Maybe on par with a SM out of his suit, but more likely just a shade under. Not a lot of fluff out there to back my opinion, and much of it is BLSM -Uber-alles stuff.
An ork Nob is definitely buffer than a SM, but not by a huge margin.
That is pretty manly, and I'll admit that I forgot about that.
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Ascalam wrote: Personally i'd put an Ork Boy as FAR buffer than a human, but not as buff as a PA'd SM. Maybe on par with a SM out of his suit, but more likely just a shade under. Not a lot of fluff out there to back my opinion, and much of it is BLSM -Uber-alles stuff.
An ork Nob is definitely buffer than a SM, but not by a huge margin.
Honestly there is so little fluff on the strength of a Space Marine without power armour it is hard to say. When are they not in their armour, lol?
I think there is the odd bit of fluff with a scout (not full PA) or unarmoured Sm, but usually when they are out of their armour it's hot SM on SM action, not Xenos
DOGGED wrote: Are you even remotely trying to be serious on this? Really?
I am always serious.
Attempts at misdirection? Trying to have sway on you? Are you really meaning it?
You just asked me that question.
Don't get confused, I (and I guess a good lot of people) have absolutely no intention on having any sway over you. For my concern, you can freely go anywhere, think about anything and say what you want. I quite frankly could not care less about that.
Then why did you make a red-herring?
Neither I have any intention to even start looking for any citation, obscure or not, to support what is widely known as basic background information relating orks and the humans who are extensively modified to be space marines. I can't really believe you are even asking for it. Is there by chance any kind of study degree on 40k canon fluff anyway? Certainly all seriousness regarding 40k is to be debated with a healthy measure of informality (to say the least). It is a game after all. The moment someone gets zealous about it is the moment when someone becomes annoying instead of amusing.
I'm not being zealous, I'm asking people to justify their claims with background material. Why do people here always get defensive when I want them to do so?
Besides, an ork is naturally tougher and stronger than a human; it also makes him tougher and stronger than a space marine without all the armor and artificial augmentations, as he would still be a space marine. That there may be exceptions to this rule does not invalidate but just confirm it. Stop demanding quoting and just enjoy the talk; don't be the party spoiler. Finally, what WarlordRob117 said and Willhman supported, I support too. Melissia nailed it too, as Ascalam quite cheeringly remarked.
EDIT: And what Illuknisaa posted. A 10 years old space marine? Sooo... Where?
So what you are saying is that Orks are stronger than a Space Marine, once you take away all of the qualities that make them Space Marines, while also relegating them to the status of ten year old boy? Gee, who'd of thunk it, lol.
No but really. Address the actual topic at hand. Are Ork Boys physically stronger than the transhuman Space Marines, not the human children they once were? Y/N, and if the former, please do me the courtesy of providing citations supporting that fact.
Hey, I'll even do your side an honor: I've recalled fluff that states that Ork Nobs are actually a little stronger than Marines. Fulgrim has a Marine character state as much. There, I've done some work for you.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kronk wrote: I've always assumed Void_Dragon was posting in character. For further details, check out the thread on the Did an Ork choke the Emperor!?
But now I think he's just anti ork, and that makes me a sad Grot. :-(
They're one of my favorite factions.
I am anti-unsupported claims.
Why do you think I dislike Orks?
First: No you're not always serious. But you do like pestering and behaving in a mostly pedantic way. Maybe that's just your sense of humour. As long as you do not insult it's ok for me, if annoying. You'll finally run out of people to talk with by boring 'em but hey, that's not hurting anyone. And you get to bring some interesting points.
Second: If you mean I made that question when I wrote it, it is obvious. If you mean that I was trying to sway you, my dear, you are vastly overestimating yourself. I clearly stated I have no intention to do so, and I (again) could not care less about such a thing. But this is a forum. As you have your right to express yerself, I do same. My opinion is just that; I quite frankly don't need your approval nor I am claiming for it. You seem to confuse about people expressing their opinions and interpretations on fantasy writing and such fantasy writing being susceptible to be used as proof. You know, you are not talking about a tome on physics but a fantasy game in space.
Third: Stop making up red herrings by saying people make red herrings.
Fourth: Do not demand people to make any justification. Gork, let people enjoy! It is not that people get on the defensive with you, it is you who puts people on the defensive. Stop being aggressive and pedantic and people will start talking. Keep your overbearing attittude and being a fluff nazi and people will keep defending themselves. You seem to have a serious problem with your conversational competence, at least regarding this matter. Maybe it is caused by asinchrony and virtuality being characteristic of internet and forum conversation, but you should make an effort to actually talk. Unless you are trying to compensate for something, but then you should look for a solution in other place.
Fifth: SM are not transhuman, they are just modified humans. They lack all and every social and mental condition to even be considered as an early transhuman. So do not make red herrings and let's consider them what they are: humans (even if modified ones, they are just humans, even they are a stagnant kind of humans); you can put half a dozen lungs on 'em if you want, but it does not make them evolved. It just makes them having to tailor their clothing. So the statement keeps true in its 40k context. Orks are stronger and tougher than humans ergo are stronger and tougher than SM. So an ork with SM augmentations, training and resources would be stronger and tougher than a human SM one. Mork, it could even be smarter, or not. But their very physical nature is far superior to the human one. Don't even dare to ask for proof. I would not pester Phil Kelly demanding such. Go ask him to write a piece negating it if it makes you happier. 'Til that, howl at the moon if ya want.
Last: glad to see you don't hate orks at least. With friends like these... And don't think I am in any way trying to mistreat or downplay, belittle or depreciate you in any sense. In fact I've made an effort (not an English native here) to talk with you. But it escapes me why do you constantly try to spoil conversations that should be funny and/or constructive without a hint of joking or helping. Such negativeness...
Orks are the Old Ones' equivalent of Space Marines anyway, the main difference being that we don't know anything about the physicality of their predecessor race, the Krork (unlike humans, who we know too much about).
A Marine is much bigger and stronger than a human. Compare a body builder to a skinny nerd (the sort who are popular as hackers in movies, not a neckbeard!). Then think of the body builder as the nerd and the Marine is bulkier than him by about that much.
Orks in the artwork are usually shown to be about the same size as Marines, especially if the art is focussed on Guardsmen.
I like orks but they don't scream 40k for me, I would never collect them but other than that I don't have any particular problem with them that I really want to think about too much, just a game after all.
i believe Armageddon still stands because Ghazkull left the place in pursuit of a real battle Though Armageddon will soon be a Ork planet,.. The imperium is stretched to its limits,..barely able to supply all warfronts across their terretory,... Yet more and more orks are feeling the call of Armageddon.. And Armageddon has been smacked to gak once before,.. Armageddon only stands because Ghazkull allowed it because he wanted to fight Yarrick again (stated in Ork Codex and random bits of fluff about Armageddon, believe 5th and 6th rulebook as well)
Still, to be back on topic,.. i believe it was either in the SM/Ork codex or 5th rulebook, but one of the most senior librarians said something like ,.. if the orks were ever to truly unite all we know would turn to dust... If a senior librarian takes them seriously,.. why the hell shouldnt we?
Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.
On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.
BaconUprising wrote: Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.
On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.
That would be fun - and keeping in with the fluff.
Well if you really want to examine fluff it states in the codex that orks are human height when hunched over. guess what else is roughly human height when hunched over? A gorilla. Gorillas are the most analogous creature to an ork as far as I can see. So is a gorilla as strong as Space Marine? I think the only advantage Space Marines have over the orks is power armor, without which the SM would quickly be reduced to paste. However SM do have power armor so that one space marine will always be more hardy and combat worthy than one ork. That being said imagine if orks made power armor . They would own the galaxy in a millennium, get bored, and moan about the golden days when there were all them pink ummies to smash.
As a race, humanities greatest advantage is coordination which is what allows for the creation of the warrior cultures and the technology that have allowed the Empire to maintain control over such a large portion of galactic real estate. If orks had that level of cooperation all foot troops would be in mega armor and we could call it a day.
BaconUprising wrote: Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.
On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.
I would love that,... though since i play orks,.. it would be devastating to my salary Not to mention transport difficultys
BaconUprising wrote: Orks are powerful, very powerful more than a match for one human. But in sources to numerous to mention space marines are mentioned the equal of almost 10 orks. The game doesn't represent this.
On another note in a standard bearer in a white dwarf Gervis says that it would be boring to have only a few extremely powerful space marines. I think it would be cooler to have 10 space marines facing about 200 orks and the match being even. Not sure how many people agree but it would be cool.
Space marines killing ork boys in fluff ten to one has never been in question, what we are debating is if an ork nob is a equivalent to a space marine. Which I have to say that they are indeed.
I wish they kept the fluff and the game more closely put togther.
That's not saying much. I mean, Marines are really rare. Freakishly rare. So much so that it becomes obvious that most Marine writers have no sense of scale at all.
As mentioned earlier, orks are not as silly as once portrayed, and I for one think it's a good thing. They've struck the right balance between lunatic barbarity and random brutality, if there is such a thing.
Sure, in a world of 10 foot tall dudes in giant suits or armor shooting guns that fire small rockets, who worship an all powerful zombie on a chair, some green dudes are too silly? Orks are such an important part of 40k and the fandom (orkmotions anyone) that they just can"t be taken out. Sure, they are the comedy relief, but too silly for sci fi? I think not
LoneLictor wrote: ....and we, as an audience, are so jaded to it that we think it's "silly".
I disagree, I believe it's the Cockney accents and belief system that influence some views on the "sillyness" of the big green guys. This coupled with the Ork attitude towards war. Instead of having a bleak dramatic outlook on it, they relish in the thought of battle. War makes them happy.
Their fluff is full of quirks and oddball things that make them the comic relief of the 40k universe -- but this is irrelevant to them being Dark enough for the 40k universe....IMO it gives a personality and style to the brutality. Without it, it would just be boring.
So, Grim Dark? I would think so, but Grim Dark when dealing with the Orks, is simply the perspective of the billions of unfortunate people being slaughtered by them
At least we're making some headway... the poll is astounding and I will admit I expected the numbers to be a little more even, but Im over-joyed in seeing this.
Only thing to hope for now is GW seeing this poll and being like "Next Dex? Orks for sure" lol
Though I suppose if we wait for a while we'll have a considerable edge in that we'll know how to crump everyone else just like we always do
Considering how one sided fluff usually is (tyranid codex being the exception since they always seem to get squished in their own fluff), I would really love to see more that balances this whole arguement out... I mean I get that teef is a currency and that they do have a goofy side, but I feel the goofy side emulates a "joker to batman" style threat in that sure they do have a silly side, but that silliness is purely to distract from the notion that this is a seriously dangerous threat will make regret not taking them seriously lol
WarlordRob117 wrote: At least we're making some headway... the poll is astounding and I will admit I expected the numbers to be a little more even, but Im over-joyed in seeing this.
Only thing to hope for now is GW seeing this poll and being like "Next Dex? Orks for sure" lol
Though I suppose if we wait for a while we'll have a considerable edge in that we'll know how to crump everyone else just like we always do
Considering how one sided fluff usually is (tyranid codex being the exception since they always seem to get squished in their own fluff), I would really love to see more that balances this whole arguement out... I mean I get that teef is a currency and that they do have a goofy side, but I feel the goofy side emulates a "joker to batman" style threat in that sure they do have a silly side, but that silliness is purely to distract from the notion that this is a seriously dangerous threat will make regret not taking them seriously lol
It can be equated to the five year old kid, sat in the garden, pulling the wings off bugs and giggling at the little wavy legs moving in rapid motion, humming to himself, tongue poking out to the side in bemused concentration.
It's not threatening really is it, it's almost funny.
Unless you're the bug.
Orks will enslave whatever they don't kill, they will torture, maim and eat their captives, on capturing a world, they will take the old, the sick, the children and use them to feed the functional adult slaves as they work them to death in great scrap factories churning out ammunition and sundries of war for the greenskin masters. They will make the weakest humans fight each other over a meal of their own relatives and nail living, dismembered humans to walls around the factory to 'make da ova wuns work fasta...'.
Orks are silly? Go read up on the Stalin regime or the death camps of the Nazis, a world enslaved to the Orks will be beholden to a brutal, savage species who will stripmine it, pollute it past it's ability to sustain life and commit atrocities against it's population, it's entire world population, on a scale that exceeds the most wicked regimes we've ever witnessed on earth. A species that will suddenly set a pen full of slaves on fire because it suddenly occurred to a burna that it might be amusing to watch them dance as they cook alive. To pull the unborn child from a woman, using a buzzsaw, because it's a puzzling thing to an ork, the human reproduction. To peel the skin from an old man to laugh at him when he's all red and noisy.
To be honest, I think the idea of Orks being the comedic relief of 40k really only goes so far as the individual presentation. I see it most in the games, really. Outside that, in what fiction I've read they're appropriately brutal. I'd certainly not laugh at the Orks as portrayed in Rynn's World.
Hell, I am an Ork and Tau player, and I do think that statement the Tau player made or two is complete and utter bull.
Sure, the Tau may have a higher Technology, and more likely a higher standard of living of a good majority of the galaxy, but it makes me sad somewhat since Tau fans seems to ignore the fact that Tau are Communistic/ Caste-like in nature and see them as the ultra good guys in 40k. Truth really is they're really not, for them the greater good is 'Accept our way of Thinking or be blasted back to the stone Age with our firepower because we think our way is Altruistic" which is essentially what the Imperium is in a way, but the Tau rather use Diplomacy first to convince them rather than a straight-up fight at first.
Now with that out of the way back on topic....
The only way the Orks would seem silly is their individual presentation as TermiesInARaider put it, and might as well go as far as their slightly crude, twisted, but awesome sense of humor.
But, looking past that, they are a great threat, if not the greatest threat, to the Imperium and the 40k Galaxy at large. Why one may ask? Because essentially they have technology that only works for them, and even baffles the Earth Caste and the Adeptus Mechanicus how it works for the orks a bit. And lets not forget that Orks are essentially never ending since they release 100 spores when they die in a fight or so. The only real thing that keeps them from causing a catastrophic demise of the Imperium is the fact Orks fight anything, even themselves. Even then, if you still get a large group of Orks together and attack a planet, two outcomes: Either the orks take over and overrun that planet, or it is doomed to eternal Warfare for the spores an dead Ork releases unless you Exterminatus the planet. Either way, the Orks win in both outcomes if you think about it.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: Hell, I am an Ork and Tau player, and I do think that statement the Tau player made or two is complete and utter bull.
Sure, the Tau may have a higher Technology, and more likely a higher standard of living of a good majority of the galaxy, but it makes me sad somewhat since Tau fans seems to ignore the fact that Tau are Communistic/ Caste-like in nature and see them as the ultra good guys in 40k. Truth really is they're really not, for them the greater good is 'Accept our way of Thinking or be blasted back to the stone Age with our firepower because we think our way is Altruistic" which is essentially what the Imperium is in a way, but the Tau rather use Diplomacy first to convince them rather than a straight-up fight at first.
Now with that out of the way back on topic....
The only way the Orks would seem silly is their individual presentation as TermiesInARaider put it, and might as well go as far as their slightly crude, twisted, but awesome sense of humor.
But, looking past that, they are a great threat, if not the greatest threat, to the Imperium and the 40k Galaxy at large. Why one may ask? Because essentially they have technology that only works for them, and even baffles the Earth Caste and the Adeptus Mechanicus how it works for the orks a bit. And lets not forget that Orks are essentially never ending since they release 100 spores when they die in a fight or so. The only real thing that keeps them from causing a catastrophic demise of the Imperium is the fact Orks fight anything, even themselves. Even then, if you still get a large group of Orks together and attack a planet, two outcomes: Either the orks take over and overrun that planet, or it is doomed to eternal Warfare for the spores an dead Ork releases unless you Exterminatus the planet. Either way, the Orks win in both outcomes if you think about it.
To be honest, happy subjugation under the Tau is one of the better places you could be in the 40k universe. That, or as a simple farmer on some backwater Imperial Agri-world. Really, the best you can hope for in the 41st Millennium is to be left alone.
Melissia wrote: That's debatable. While Tau players often dispute it, there have been numerous reports of Tau being quite oppressive to non-Tau.
Yeah, but at the very least, they'll usually leave you alone if you do what they say. Or so, as far as what I've read. They only start doing the whole orbital bombardment/concentration camps/brainwashing thing if you don't go willingly.
Melissia wrote: That's debatable. While Tau players often dispute it, there have been numerous reports of Tau being quite oppressive to non-Tau.
Not that I am going to disagree with you there, but I can see it happening. The Tau ending to Dark Crusade can prove that (but that might be some weak evidence I think :p ), even some of the accounts (If I heard correctly) from a Kroot in the Last Chancers novels since the Tau are always going to consider their Race first, hell they are even trying to remake the Kroot for how they are (Essentially Mercenaries at first that often eat the corpses of their enemies after battle). Brainwashing Reeducation camps? Most likely. Sterilization? I can see that, but the Tau Empire could be shooting themselves in the foot if they can keep the Humans on their side brainwashed, but it would make sense since they do not want a possible overthrow.
And this is the Least grimdark of an outcome for the 40k Universe if you think about a bit.
People who don't think 40K is silly and comedic just didn't get the joke. The Orks are just the punchline, I guess.
But come to think of it, a lot of this black comedy has vanished over the years. I didn't see any of it in the loyalist Marine codexe.. codexi... codexidusses. I guess it's up to us players to show people why 40K is so funny!
People who don't think 40K is silly and comedic just didn't get the joke. The Orks are just the punchline, I guess.
But come to think of it, a lot of this black comedy has vanished over the years. I didn't see any of it in the loyalist Marine codexe.. codexi... codexidusses. I guess it's up to us players to show people why 40K is so funny!
I suppose that's an evolution of the property, really. A lot of the writers are shifting from those black comedy elements to more of a sci-fi/war/horror genre. To be honest, I don't mind it.
Orks are to silly, i guess thats why they are easily the most prosperous race and when they attack they are a never ending wave of green death. That is not silly, and whoever beleives it is a zoggin grot.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issue perfectly.
Like the guy I used to know who insisted Elves in fantasy should be less than a foot tall and make toys.
That's the first time I've seen a convincing argument for "Grimdark" being a matter of perspective.
I guess it's true though. It's a good time to be an Ork.
up.
I just had another idea for a thread lmao
They're psychic ninja space elves, get it right.
... makes me drool!
