This thread will be used to compile feedback on Brushfire Second Edition

The Announcement/FAQ:


How do I get in on the Brushfire =Historia Rodentia= Second Edition BETA?
Anyone who has purchased a copy of Brushfire =Historia Rodentia= through WargameVault by March 25th was grandfathered into Second Edition. Second Edition is a separate listing on WGV, and is available for $11.99. With the Release of the Second Edition BETA/Playtest PDF the First Edition rulebook has been reduced to $0.99 and is available for archival purposes. Like with Endless: Fantasy Tactics, when the book is finished all BETA/Playtest PDF owners will automatically be updated to the retail version.

How will I get new cards?
Brushfire's faction decks and replacement cards will become available through DriveThruStuff's (Same owner as WGV) Card site, and will be available as a Print On Demand option.

When will The Cult of Exomorphism be available?
Q4 2013, more details at Adepticon.

When submitting typos please include the page number. When submitting balance/gameplay issues please make sure to include a battle report and playtest variables (such as armies used/what happened).

Book Splitting Announcement

Awsome news, I'm definatly looking forward to the updates!

Just to be sure: to be part of the beta, we need to have bought the pdf format of the book, right? Any buyer of the paper version needs to buy the pdf version also?

 Tonio wrote:
Just be sure: to be part of the beta, we need to have bought the pdf format of the book, right? Any buyer of the paper version needs to buy the pdf version also?

Yes, as I don't have an easy way of handing the PDF to everyone who bought the printed edition.

If the EFT Fanbase asks really nicely, we'll include them as well.

Do I have that? I definitely have the PDF but I can't recall buying it. It might have been an early kickstarter perk?

 Casey's Law wrote:
Do I have that? I definitely have the PDF but I can't recall buying it. It might have been an early kickstarter perk?

If you have the Rulebook PDF, you got it through WargameVault. We've only done the Rulebook PDFs through them as it allows us to easily update the PDFs and notify everyone.

But the question I have is, do I have to buy the 2nd edition Rulebook pdf, or if I have the 1st Edition Rulebook, that will be updated with the 2nd edition rules and I don't need to buy that pdf?

Alfndrate wrote:But the question I have is, do I have to buy the 2nd edition Rulebook pdf, or if I have the 1st Edition Rulebook, that will be updated with the 2nd edition rules and I don't need to buy that pdf?

Cyporiean wrote:
How do I get in on the Brushfire =Historia Rodentia= Second Edition BETA?
Anyone who has purchased a copy of Brushfire =Historia Rodentia= through WargameVault by March 25th will be grandfathered into Second Edition. Second Edition will be a separate listing on WGV, and will be available for $11.99 later this week. Once its available Brushfire 1.2 will be lowered to $0.99 and remain for sale for archival purposes.

If you have a copy of the Rulebook PDF via WargameVault, you'll get the 2nd Edition Rulebook PDF.

That'll learn me to read!

Thanks Cy, I've been elbow deep in SQL code this morning, real people words are hard to understand atm.

 Alfndrate wrote:
That'll learn me to read!

Thanks Cy, I've been elbow deep in SQL code this morning, real people words are hard to understand atm.

That's a poor excuse, you should have remembered from me telling you in one of our meetings a few weeks ago

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
That'll learn me to read!

Thanks Cy, I've been elbow deep in SQL code this morning, real people words are hard to understand atm.

That's a poor excuse, you should have remembered from me telling you in one of our meetings a few weeks ago

I call bs on that Our meetings revolve around various games or shows I should be experiencing, and Misk asking if my computer even lifts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you've got the PDF copy, you should be seeing an email from OTL about 2nd Ed pdf. I just got mine.

Got the email! I'll check it out soon.

I guess that when it gets updates those of us who have downloaded 2nd will get another email to prompt us to download the update?

What exactly can I do to help? I'm guessing that I should paint up my Warbands and get some friends round to Beta test 2nd, yeh? Any particular type of feedback required?

 Casey's Law wrote:
Got the email! I'll check it out soon.

I guess that when it gets updates those of us who have downloaded 2nd will get another email to prompt us to download the update?

What exactly can I do to help? I'm guessing that I should paint up my Warbands and get some friends round to Beta test 2nd, yeh? Any particular type of feedback required?

Aye, whenever we push an update everyone will get a notification about it.

As for helping, read through the rules let us know if something isn't clear, point out typos, 'this unit sucks', etc

Any feedback is appreciated.

 Cyporiean wrote:
All feedback is appreciated.

Fixed that

Drats I seem to have missed to cut off date.

Seems I get off pretty easily this time.

You sneaky gits! I'm a sucker for free rules. Since I heard the news I browsed through the Brushfire store to check out all the games models. This might be enough to catch me up in another game.

I enjoy that both of your games are a bit more lighthearted than most wargames. Some of the models from both the Brushfire and Endless lines remind me of Muppets which makes me smile.

Ok, I had a chance to sit with the pdf for an hour or two last night. It looks like fun.

First the easy stuff. Awkward sentences:

Pg 238 - Hyena Witch doctor bloodlust - "Target Squad may make +1 Attack this on their next Activation"

Pg 232 - Pride Lioness -Ghost in the darkness rank1 - "Target squad may activate immediately to make a Ranged Attacks"

Pg 121 - Lem Han description 2nd paragragh - "The Myo lemmings have called for an Undivided Chugoku, an coalition to fight the... (also capitalization on Undivide?)

Pg 136 - Juan Chamomile Lightning Strike - "When using this ability with Juan's Squad uses MS instead of RS"

It seems I haven't got my 2nd edition beta rulebook altough I have the "Brushfire - Historia Rodentia" on my Wargame Vault account. I purchased it more than a year ago during a sale.

I'm not sure I bought it on Wargame Vault, it might be RPGNow or something.However I have the account and the purchased rulebook on WV.

Can someone help me with this?

The first thing I do when I read any wargame is build an army to see what kind of toys I get to push around on the table. I found the force building rules to be disorganized and unclear in spots.

Here are a few specific isses I observed:

A number of units, such as Lem Han, are designated as Heavy Cavalry without a primary unit type. I was unclear of what my Squad Cap was in such cases.

I noticed a couple mentions of the "same equipment" rule, such as under the Horde unit type and the accessories rules, but could not find where the rule was specificly stated. I may have missed it, but did not see it in either the Army Enlistment or Equipment sections where I would expect such a rule.

Nowhere in the army enlistment section does it mention that seige weapons/fortifications are an option for your Food, Lumber, and Gold expenditures when creating a force.

The Same equipment rule is from the squad phase detailing how to activate models.

Models that don't indicate a primary unit type default to "infantry" with a 10 model squad limit. Ill make sure this gets noted in a future push.

It should be mentioned in the siege section about enlisting those items, but ill see about making a note in the earlier section.

Roo, PM me your E-mail address and I'll see what I can do.

I tried to download it with a bad mobile connection and it failed. Surprise, surprise. I'll download it with a better connection tomorrow though.

I have some reasonable qualifications in graphic and literary communication. Paired with my unemployment, I'm considering printing this off and just going through it page by page with a red pen.

Not that I'm saying it's particularly bad, and I obviously haven't seen 2nd yet. I think I have the time though if it would be beneficial? At the very least I could cut it up and rebuild it the way I find it most comfortable to follow and learn. Whether that would work for everyone else is a different matter.

I'll let you guys tell me if you would find that useful before I make a start.


I have a point to raise though which has been on my mind. I think it might deserve it's own thread for discussion but I'll refrain from posting it until tomorrow when I have seen 2nd.
Basically I'm worried that Exemplars are mandatory for competitive play. Looking at 1st I can't see anything that compares well for spending wood and gold on. It appears to me(remember I haven't played or read 2nd yet) that taking as many Exemplars as you can is a deadly boost to your force that outweighs what you could get in equipment or siege equipment. Mercanaries add to and increase that issue.

I am resigned to the fact that I am almost definitely wrong about that.

I'll wait to see your full thread on the subject Casey, but I think it will vary by army. I could see Axony or Ribenguo armies being Exemplar heavy.. while Vandalands players might forget that Gotz, Arctos, and Luca exist depending on their playstyle.

Fair play. I'll do some more research and see what I can dig up. Happy to be proved wrong though, it's all very much conjecture.

Would you like me to tackle the rulebook or is it not necessary? I'm happy to help with stuff if it's useful to you. Even if it just saves you a chunk of time.

On the idea of exemplars being mandatory for competitive play, I think you should probably post your ideas down in the "thoughts on competitive play" thread

Haha, oh yeh, I forgot about that thread. Actually I think I'll just pose the question there now and see what everyone else thinks.

Shaka War Hogs list Sling as an upgrade option but I can't find sling anywhere in the basic or Zabaran equipment sections

Galen wrote:
Shaka War Hogs list Sling as an upgrade option but I can't find sling anywhere in the basic or Zabaran equipment sections

Ah, that was a pre-beta change that got dropped, just ignore it.

I really like the new rulebook. I can't wait to bring my Warlord to the field!


Then let's write some criticism about the 2nd rulebook.
(I only speed-read the basic rules)

-I have no idea how big a 4' x 4' table is. It's a cultural thing. Can you add it in centimeters also?
-"Rushed" is mentioned in the Terms part, but "Rush" isn't, just way later. It's weird although I can see why.
-Garrison: Going in and out from a garrison is unclear. Sound's like going in a garrison ends the models turn who goes in while leaving the garrison doesn't. Going in occurs at the end of the movement phase, but what about units that can switch their movement/attack phases or can interrupt their movement phases with their attacks, or have a heroic/tactical action? A model like this can pop out, do it's thing then go back in?
-the term "Causing Fearsome" sound's weird to me. Also "Immune to Fear" and "Immune to Fearsome" both appears.
-It is not explained when exactly a model is "obscured"?
-Deviation: The text about the deviation on page 27 does not say what do you have to target and it's generally unclear.
-Crossbow: It's not clear if the free counterattack is part of the Heavy Bolt ability or not. I think it's not, but I'm actually not sure.
-Horns: If this isn't changed, Horn effects stack with other horn effects, but not with the same horn effect. Although my English skills might be wrong here.
-The Siege weapon section sometimes list a base in inches other times in centimeters.
-The wall and the tower might have an expected height given. Also how wide is a castle gate?

Vandalands:

-Valkyr MK.I and Valkyr Mk.II has too similar names. Can you guys give some nickname to at least one of them, like "Valkyr Mk.2 - Hellfire" so we can call it Hellfire Valkyr? (okay that's lame but maybe something german will do it)
-Also, the Mk.II has no pilot?

Hamster Berserkers - Northern Berserker - If the Squad kills at least one enemy unit then the squad may attack again, right? It can be argued that only Hamster berserkers that are scored a kill whitin the Hamster Berserker squad may attack a second time(so one extra attack per kill).

That's all for now

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I really like the new rulebook. I can't wait to bring my Warlord to the field!


Then let's write some criticism about the 2nd rulebook.
(I only speed-read the basic rules)

-I have no idea how big a 4' x 4' table is. It's a cultural thing. Can you add it in centimeters also?

Much like you not knowing how large a 4ft by 4ft table is, I have no idea how many centimeters that is, so I used google . 4ft is 121.95 centimeters. Or 1m 22cm

Vandalands:

-Valkyr MK.I and Valkyr Mk.II has too similar names. Can you guys give some nickname to at least one of them, like "Valkyr Mk.2 - Hellfire" so we can call it Hellfire Valkyr? (okay that's lame but maybe something german will do it)
-Also, the Mk.II has no pilot?

A Mk2 Valk is an exemplar, So it'll be a different model than a Mk1 I believe, but Cyp and Misk can confirm/deny better than I can. Also the lack of a pilot refers to the Mission Complete ability where the entire mech blows up... To quote Star Trek, "He's dead Jim."

Hamster Berserkers - Northern Berserker - If the Squad kills at least one enemy unit then the squad may attack again, right? It can be argued that only Hamster berserkers that are scored a kill whitin the Hamster Berserker squad may attack a second time(so one extra attack per kill).

It doesn't say squad, but you're right it is somewhat unclear. It should read something along the lines of, "A Hamster Beserker may make a second Melee Phase if it kills a model in B2B. Northern Berserkers may not trigger more than once per activation."

Edit: I only answered the questions I was fairly certain on.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I really like the new rulebook. I can't wait to bring my Warlord to the field!


Then let's write some criticism about the 2nd rulebook.
(I only speed-read the basic rules)

-I have no idea how big a 4' x 4' table is. It's a cultural thing. Can you add it in centimeters also?

Much like you not knowing how large a 4ft by 4ft table is, I have no idea how many centimeters that is, so I used google . 4ft is 121.95 centimeters. Or 1m 22cm

That's only a guess, but maybe the problem comes from the « ' » identification of feet? Maybe « 4 feet by 4 feet » would be clearer than « 4'x4' »?

There is that possibility as well, if that was the case, my bad D:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-I have no idea how big a 4' x 4' table is. It's a cultural thing. Can you add it in centimeters also?

Metric is weird, we really only use it for the bases because they are industry standard.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-"Rushed" is mentioned in the Terms part, but "Rush" isn't, just way later. It's weird although I can see why.

Changing the term listing to 'Rush/Rushed' to just make things alittle clearer

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-Garrison: Going in and out from a garrison is unclear. Sound's like going in a garrison ends the models turn who goes in while leaving the garrison doesn't. Going in occurs at the end of the movement phase, but what about units that can switch their movement/attack phases or can interrupt their movement phases with their attacks, or have a heroic/tactical action? A model like this can pop out, do it's thing then go back in?

Its an optional thing, you're welcome to pop back and forth.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-the term "Causing Fearsome" sound's weird to me. Also "Immune to Fear" and "Immune to Fearsome" both appears.

'Causing Fearsome' is just odd grammar, not much we can do about it to keep things simple.
I cannot locate 'Immune to Fear', where is this term?

-It is not explained when exactly a model is "obscured"?

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-Deviation: The text about the deviation on page 27 does not say what do you have to target and it's generally unclear.

You have to target whatever you are targeting.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-Crossbow: It's not clear if the free counterattack is part of the Heavy Bolt ability or not. I think it's not, but I'm actually not sure.

Heavy Bolt - This weapon deals +1 DE on a Critical Hit; and may be used as a Free Activation to make the Counterfire Charge Reaction.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-Horns: If this isn't changed, Horn effects stack with other horn effects, but not with the same horn effect. Although my English skills might be wrong here.

Working as intended, you can't get a +Infinity by buying an infinite amount of the same horn.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-The Siege weapon section sometimes list a base in inches other times in centimeters.

We used the millimeter base size for the standard bases that Brushfire uses, some things are intended for basing on bases we do not normally use (Rectangles).

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-The wall and the tower might have an expected height given. Also how wide is a castle gate?

Wall Height doesn't really matter for Brushfire. A Castle Gate is 2"x6"

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Vandalands:

-Valkyr MK.I and Valkyr Mk.II has too similar names. Can you guys give some nickname to at least one of them, like "Valkyr Mk.2 - Hellfire" so we can call it Hellfire Valkyr? (okay that's lame but maybe something german will do it)
-Also, the Mk.II has no pilot?

What Alf said. The Mk.IIs are prototypes, their pilots cannot allow any part of the technology to get into enemy hands.. including the knowledge of the pilots.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Hamster Berserkers - Northern Berserker - If the Squad kills at least one enemy unit then the squad may attack again, right? It can be argued that only Hamster berserkers that are scored a kill whitin the Hamster Berserker squad may attack a second time(so one extra attack per kill).

What Alf said.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

That's all for now

Keep it up

 Cyporiean wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

-I have no idea how big a 4' x 4' table is. It's a cultural thing. Can you add it in centimeters also?

Metric is weird, we really only use it for the bases because they are industry standard.

I can say the same about Imperial.

 Tonio wrote:

I can say the same about Imperial.

Hey, you want to sell that thing to Europe or not? I bet you can't sell it on the moon.

Just joking. but seriously. The reader shouldn't use google alongside the rulebook. At least print a metric/centimeter ruler in somewhere.

We'll get something in there for you metrics folks, but just remember 30CM is about 1FT/12"

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Hey, you want to sell that thing to Europe or not? I bet you can't sell it on the moon.

Just joking. but seriously. The reader shouldn't use google alongside the rulebook. At least print a metric/centimeter ruler in somewhere.

While I totally get metric is the standard thing everywhere else, for some reason Imperial is the standard in wargames with the exception of naval games.

Do your tape measures/rulers not have imperial measurements on them?

 Cyporiean wrote:
We'll get something in there for you metrics folks, but just remember 30CM is about 1FT/12"

A simple 1" = 2.5cm somewhere at the start of the book should be enough. That's what most game book have has a mention, normally.

 Tonio wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
We'll get something in there for you metrics folks, but just remember 30CM is about 1FT/12"

A simple 1" = 2.5cm somewhere at the start of the book should be enough. That's what most game book have has a mention, normally.

That is the plan.

I'll see about getting another build of the PDF out late tonight.

Actually I went to the local hope depot store and they didn't had a single tape with inches. The game store has some on triple price.

Anyway, I think the height of the walls, gates and towers should be mentionned, so it can be clear that how much they are blocking line of sight.

On the size of the gate I think about the size of the opening part of the gate, so when it's broken down how wide of a hole will it become, or the whole piece is gets removed?

"Immune to Fear" can be found at page 21, 50, 57, 118 twice, and 222.

What I want to say about the imperial/metric thing is that the book doesn't seems to stick with either. It uses what it's covinient. In the way you guys can't tell wich one is the 50mm base if it's not written on it, I can't tell if a table is 4' x 4' or not.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Actually I went to the local hope depot store and they didn't had a single tape with inches. The game store has some on triple price.

Anyway, I think the height of the walls, gates and towers should be mentionned, so it can be clear that how much they are blocking line of sight.

On the size of the gate I think about the size of the opening part of the gate, so when it's broken down how wide of a hole will it become, or the whole piece is gets removed?

"Immune to Fear" can be found at page 21, 50, 57, 118 twice, and 222.

What I want to say about the imperial/metric thing is that the book doesn't seems to stick with either. It uses what it's covinient. In the way you guys can't tell wich one is the 50mm base if it's not written on it, I can't tell if a table is 4' x 4' or not.

Actually I can tell bases just by looking at them. We list base size because bases are sold like that. We could easily say, "small base, medium base, and large base." and you'd have to go with the ones we provide with the models. By saying it's a 30mm base, you can go into any game store (anywhere in the world), and request a 30mm base, and they'll point you in the right direction. It's just how odd the game industry is.

I just couldn't tell you conversion rates between feet and centimeters lol

Height of a wall/tower/anything has no bearing on LOS. You could play an army of tokens against a proper modeled army and not have any issues with LOS since LOS is determined by measuring through the horizontal. Brushfire uses simple abstract LOS, rather then any form of True LOS.

The Gate opening is abstract, like doors on buildings, its just assumed a model can move through it.

And the horns. Two different horns stack, -at least if I'm understanding "stacking" correctly- but two of the same doesn't.

Is the "one horn and one banner per type on an army" rule got removed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm getting pretty good with this imperial stuff since I play this game, but it's not about me you see. The 12 inches is one foot thing is pretty unorthodox here(why 12? srsly).

Any Heroes or Exemplars may carry accessories, and some Troops will list them as part of their Standard or Upgrade Equipment. Each model may only carry one accessory from each category.

Accessories are horns, banners, and items. So a hero could carry 1 of each, and an exemplar could carry 1 of each, and a second exemplar could carry 1 of each...

 WhiteRoo wrote:
And the horns. Two different horns stack, -at least if I'm understanding "stacking" correctly- but two of the same doesn't.

Yes.

Your Warlord uses Bugle of the Hunter’s Quarry to give out +2 RS, on your next activation Arctos uses Horn of the Shattered Claymore for +2 MS, then on your next activation your Valkyr have +2 MS and +2 RS.

But you would not be able to use Bugle of the Hunter's Quarry twice in an activation to get +4 RS, you'd only get +2 RS.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Is the "one horn and one banner per type on an army" rule got removed?

Yes, there is no limit to the number of them in your army.. but a Model can only hold one of each type of accessory.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I have no idea how big a 4' x 4' table is. It's a cultural thing. Can you add it in centimeters also?

Much like you not knowing how large a 4ft by 4ft table is, I have no idea how many centimeters that is, so I used google . 4ft is 121.95 centimeters. Or 1m 22cm

I think the only reason we learn both in Britain is so we can translate for you Americans. Hurry up and fall into line with the clearly superior system!
A foot is approximately 30cm. 30cm/12inch rulers are really common here, if 30cm rulers are as common in metric Europe then you'll find that's the best way to gauge 12inches from memory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Had a quick look through and i'm very impressed. I think the Exemplars are solidly balanced but possibly still breakable. I'm looking forward to delving into the PDF a bit deeper and I have a few questions already. The layout has been improved noticeably too, you've done particularly well with the limited space issue. I think I'm going to have a bash at making broken lists and then see what everyone thinks about them. It won't be easy though, everything seems more consistent already after a quick glance.

Good job so far guys. Applause all round.

More things I noticed:

Pg 170 - Sohei Toad - Unit type is listed as Sohei Toad
Pg 64 – Shrew Carbineer – All stat #s missing
Pg 91 – Kernish Terrier – Unit type listed as Horde Infantry (1st Ed. nomenclature?)
Pg 230 – Loxadon – Base size is listed as 40mm. If this is correct the artwork definitely adds a few tons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the Units section pricing goes Food/Lumber/Gold, but in the Seige Weapons Section the cost order is Gold, Lumber. The symbols are clear, but when I was building a force I started copying numbers down in the order they appeared and didn't catch my mistake until after I had built an illegal force.
Would it make sense to make the cost order consistent throughout?

Trebuchet:
In the description of the trebuchet, a misterious X variable is mentionned which can be a number from one to five. It is never used.

The Flute of the Wandering Albatross can debuff the enemy? It doesn't says "allies only".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I would like to question the idea of giving characters boons like the Hedge Knight's Dark Ties. That boon as good as nothing right now, although the other two is pretty sweet.

A release version of Vandalands-Ordenstaat will come out within the 2nd edition book?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Axony Imperial Duke's Patient Commander is also a little bit counter-intuitive. On level 1-3 it creates an interesting strategy to let the duke activate last. Level 4? Screw that, it's just passive bonus from now on.

Galen wrote:More things I noticed:

Pg 170 - Sohei Toad - Unit type is listed as Sohei Toad
Pg 64 – Shrew Carbineer – All stat #s missing
Pg 91 – Kernish Terrier – Unit type listed as Horde Infantry (1st Ed. nomenclature?)
Pg 230 – Loxadon – Base size is listed as 40mm. If this is correct the artwork definitely adds a few tons

1) Sohei Toad should be Infantry
2) So they are! I'll note this in our document so Cyp sees it.
3) Horde is still used, Infantry is just their unit Designation. Though looking at other Horde units (Hamster Berserkers), it seems that we've dropped the infantry from them.
4) Bases Size should be 60mm for the Zabaran Chieftain, noted

In the Units section pricing goes Food/Lumber/Gold, but in the Seige Weapons Section the cost order is Gold, Lumber. The symbols are clear, but when I was building a force I started copying numbers down in the order they appeared and didn't catch my mistake until after I had built an illegal force.
Would it make sense to make the cost order consistent throughout?

It would make sense, though the way it's listed is carried over from 1st Edition. That's a Cyporiean call on that one

WhiteRoo wrote:Trebuchet:
In the description of the trebuchet, a mysterious X variable is mentioned which can be a number from one to five. It is never used.

the X variable is used when determining range. Say you choose x=3, you then roll 3d10, getting 6, 4, and 8 as your results. Add those together and add 5, you place the marker 23 inches from the base of the trebuchet.

The Flute of the Wandering Albatross can debuff the enemy? It doesn't says "allies only".

It doesn't debuff enemy models... it affects ALL models.

Also, I would like to question the idea of giving characters boons like the Hedge Knight's Dark Ties. That boon as good as nothing right now, although the other two is pretty sweet.

A release version of Vandalands-Ordenstaat will come out within the 2nd edition book?

Might be a safe assumption >_>, which would mean that Dark Ties isn't useless

The Axony Imperial Duke's Patient Commander is also a little bit counter-intuitive. On level 1-3 it creates an interesting strategy to let the duke activate last. Level 4? Screw that, it's just passive bonus from now on.

Interesting take on that... The way I see it is, yes Patient Commander gives you a reason to activate him last, but remember if you're taking your 4 Talent Points and putting them into just Patient Commander, you're severely limiting the other things that he can do. So if you choose to take Rank 4 PC, all of your models will get +1Ar, +1DE, and 9+ crits until the end of their activations, and the Duke may also make charge reactions as free activations, in addition to keeping the bonuses from Patient Commander. There are few things in the game that let you activate after you've activated. But then again, it's not a price to pay for taking that 4th rank, it's supposed to make it more versatile... If that makes sense.

 Galen wrote:
Bunch of stuff

All fixed, Thanks.

Loxy should be on a 120mm base.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Trebuchet:
In the description of the trebuchet, a misterious X variable is mentionned which can be a number from one to five. It is never used.

It does, reread step 2.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The Flute of the Wandering Albatross can debuff the enemy? It doesn't says "allies only".

Correct, it effects everyone on the table.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also, I would like to question the idea of giving characters boons like the Hedge Knight's Dark Ties. That boon as good as nothing right now, although the other two is pretty sweet.

A release version of Vandalands-Ordenstaat will come out within the 2nd edition book?

Future Proofing, Jacques of Martinique is the first Ordenstaat model to be released.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The Axony Imperial Duke's Patient Commander is also a little bit counter-intuitive. On level 1-3 it creates an interesting strategy to let the duke activate last. Level 4? Screw that, it's just passive bonus from now on.

You're misreading the ability.

Additional Effect:
The Duke always has Patient Commander even after activating and may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations.

Rank 1-3 make you want to activate the Duke last, Rank 4 makes it so if you have to activate him eariler then The Duke (and only The Duke) still has the Rank 1-3 benefits applied to him (along with Free Charge Reactions).

So that's how the Trebuchet supposed to work... I think the text over-complicates it. This X thing only appears there, so not as a reader is prepared to face it. It would be much clearer as "Choose a number from 1 to 5 and roll that many d10, then add 5" or something.

As now, Dark Ties look useless because it is useless.

So the Flute can be used to srcew enemy unit ranges then?

The duke on lv4 becomes an entirely different beast to tackle. The ability looses counter-play altogether. Until then it is interesting to fight against, to try and beat the activation out of him. From lv4, there is no counterplay. it's army is on +1 AR, +1 DE and 9+ crits, and the devon brigardiers power is doubled and there is nothing to do about it. Well, killing is always an option, but if I play that model, I would just bunker it.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
So that's how the Trebuchet supposed to work... I think the text over-complicates it. This X thing only appears there, so not as a reader is prepared to face it. It would be much clearer as "Choose a number from 1 to 5 and roll that many d10, then add 5" or something.

We'll see about rewording it.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

As now, Dark Ties look useless because it is useless.

A model having the Aquatic ability is usless without water terrain being a key factor of the table being used, some things are situational.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

So the Flute can be used to srcew enemy unit ranges then?

Its nick named 'The Vandalands Horn'

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The duke on lv4 becomes an entirely different beast to tackle. The ability looses counter-play altogether. Until then it is interesting to fight against, to try and beat the activation out of him. From lv4, there is no counterplay. it's army is on +1 AR, +1 DE and 9+ crits, and the devon brigardiers power is doubled and there is nothing to do about it. Well, killing is always an option, but if I play that model, I would just bunker it.

It doesn't work that way at all.

Rank 4 does not change how Rank 1-3 works for an Axony Army. The ONLY change is that The Duke with the ability continues to have the bonuses after he activates, and The Duke gets free Charge Reactions.

Yeah, Alf's not awake yet and misread Patient Commander

Hang on... After a lv4 Patient Commander Duke activates, the effect of Patient Commander is lost, except for the duke?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I can put water pieces on the table, but I can't put Vandalands-Ordeerstat units. It's a different kind of situational.

Read Patient Commander carefully..

Ranks 1, 2, and 3, all say All Friendly Models get a bonus until the end of the the Model's Activation (in this case referring to The Duke). Which gives you the perfect reasoning for activating the Duke last. Rank 4 specifically mentions the Duke is able to keep the bonuses after he activates. Giving you some benefit to activating him if you need to before hand.

Also remember, you're putting ALOT into a single talent point just to get to Rank 4...

Also, we're future-proofing so when Vandalands-Ordenstaat is released, we don't have to get reprints of the rulebook done simply because we decided to release them. It also means you don't have to buy another book down the road to replace your "out of date because we changed a single sentence" book...

I's suggest a re-word on the Patient Commander ability then.

The third rank says:
"Additional Effect: All Friendly Models treat their Attack Rolls of 9+ as a Critical Hit."

It isn't say "until the end of the Model’s Activation.", so it's an all-time passive ability itself.

On rank four it says:
"Additional Effect: The Duke always has Patient even after activating and may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations."

The "Patient" ability actually isn't defined, but it must be the abilities combined trough level 1-3 minus the "until the end of the Model’s Activation."

Which left us with this: "All Friendly Models gain +1 AR, All Friendly Models gain +1 DE and All Friendly Models treat their Attack Rolls of 9+ as a Critical Hit."

Patient Commander is the Duke's ability to begin with. The Ability itself extends to all friendly units.

New render of the PDF is incoming...

The various typos pointed out by Galen and Whiteroo have been corrected.

Clarity question: the Vandaland Warlord Blade Spin tree. Level one lets him attack all models in B2B. Level two gives him reach. Is the intention to allow him to then make an attack against everyone within his reach or no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And not exactly about 2.0 per se, but can you drop any hints to the Ordenstaadt you keep mentioning lately? Sounds like they will be in the Merc book at some point? They sound RIGHT up my alley (knights) and I am super curious about them.

 kenshivalion wrote:
Clarity question: the Vandaland Warlord Blade Spin tree. Level one lets him attack all models in B2B. Level two gives him reach. Is the intention to allow him to then make an attack against everyone within his reach or no?

Yes, Rank 1 is just B2B, rank 2 would make that any models that are also in B2B with those models.

 kenshivalion wrote:

And not exactly about 2.0 per se, but can you drop any hints to the Ordenstaadt you keep mentioning lately? Sounds like they will be in the Merc book at some point? They sound RIGHT up my alley (knights) and I am super curious about them.

Yep, Knights, Knights, and some more Knights. These guys are basically the opposite of Vandaland's high body count/low Armor; small numbers with heavy armor. The Inquisition also has other ..horrors.. under its control that will be included.

Well I just went from "probably going to play Vandalands" to "what other factions?", so thank you for helping an indecisive gamer out. Sounds like they will be a mini faction of Mercs but I can always use the Hedge Knight to make them Vandals.

I have an email from Wargames Vault from 1/13/2012 thanking me for purchasing Brushfire - Historia Rodentia , but I didn't see an email about the 2nd edition beta?

Not necessarily worried about that, as if it's an early beta any games I get in may just be done with the current rules (as I don't know if my opponents, which would be Gymnogyps or Wehrkind, would have access to the beta). But, I figured it was worth mentioning that I didn't get an email about 2nd.

I just logged into Wargame Vault and I have download links in my library to Brushfire_Historia_Rodentia_1.2-web.pdf , and BFHR-Mercs.pdf , but not the second edition beta.

Anyway, just FYI!

Do you have the 'I'd like to get special offers and discounts' button turned on in your account?

Also, just to be clear the reason I'm referring to an email is these two posts:

Alfndrate wrote:If you've got the PDF copy, you should be seeing an email from OTL about 2nd Ed pdf. I just got mine.

Casey's Law wrote:Got the email! I'll check it out soon.

And, of course, the fact that I don't see it in my library on Wargame Vault seems to indicate that I don't have access to it / didn't just miss an email (although I've looked to try to be sure). Again, all just FYI

Yeah, the e-mails have gone out...

Goto your WGV account, click the 'Select how I wish to be contacted by publishers.' link and make sure that you are set to receive e-mails...

 Cyporiean wrote:
Do you have the 'I'd like to get special offers and discounts' button turned on in your account?

I'm not sure about that, but under On The Lamb I have the "Receive Emails?" button set to "Yes". I also got a message from On The Lamb through Wargames Vault on March 7th about the update to the Rulebook PDF (having the Mercenary PDF included).

On The Lamb sent you this email through Wargame Vault to alert you that the file for Brushfire - Historia Rodentia has been updated. You can get the updated version now at your My Library page.

If you would like to change how you receive emails from On The Lamb, go here or copy this URL into your internet browser: http://www.wargamevault.com/account_contact_options.php. Once you log into your account, you can change your email settings for On The Lamb.

So, I went to that URL and I do have "Receive Emails?" set to yes for On The Lamb, and obviously I got this email about the rulebook PDF on March 7th, so I'm not sure what the difference is.

You should have gotten it then, I'll send it directly to you again. (doing a bit of a work around).

The 'Update' e-mails go out no matter what, but anything about a special discount (which what the 2.0 mailout was) only goes out to people who select to get spammed by us.. so if you didn't have it set, you wouldn't have gotten it.

Otherwise, maybe your spam filter doesn't like us?

Yeah, I'll look in the spam filter too, odd that it would catch an email now but not the one on March 7th, though . I'll PM you my email just in case you don't have it. Thanks

I know I sent this to you on facebook, but I'm putting it here for organization

Claymore is listed as a unique equipment under the Bearded Highlander, but they no longer have the "highlanders" rule (which detailed the rules for the claymore), and it's not listed in the Axony Unique Equipment area.

I have been putting together my thoughts on building a Zabar army and before I posted them I wanted to confirm one thing.

Is it correct that Hyenas, War-Hogs, and Corsairs all cost 5/5/5 per model? I noticed that this is a change from 1st Ed. (I picked up the pdf for reference)

Yes, that is correct.

This is something that I've been thinking about, I know that not every model has had their resource price changed, but several "stock" models that you're liable to see in an army of faction x, y, or z (like rat raiders, Weasel Fusiliers, etc...)... With the switch to the "standard equipment plus must take one of 3 options", this is cementing the standard game in the smaller point categories is it not?

Like looking at my Chugokan Color Guard, they have had their food price dropped, and really have no upgrades other than a heater if I remember correctly. This means that for 5 fd and 5 lr, I can get access to a larger unit (or more smaller units) for less fd. This means that in a 50 resource game I could have up to 2 units of 5 with varied equipment, and still have plenty of lr and gd to spend on other things. That means that to reach 200 resources (something that was pretty easily obtainable by my small collection) of just my Chugoku, I'm looking at something like this:

Some Hero of Some Level
10 CCG (Red Wu) w/ Heater and Dagger-Ax - 50fd/50lr
10 CCG (Red Wu) w/ Heater and Bingfa - 50fd/50lr
10 CCG (Red Wu w/ Heater and Bingfa 50fd/50lr - (since my non crossbow unit has to take an option lol)
5 Lem Han w/Medium Armor and Rifles - 50fd/50lr/75gd

That leaves me with a solid 125 gold left to purchase things with, which I may not even spend .

Though now that I'm putting it out on paper, it doesn't seem too bad... I was expecting myself to have to spend and spend and spend to reach a 200 resource army. Hell, I don't have the ability to take an exemplar or most Siege Weapons.

That's what I was talking about on the last topic.
Think about Vandalands who will fatherland everything it doesn't want to spend on siege stuff into Rat Raiders and Hamsters.

Just the starting warband can fatherland in 10 more Rat Raiders.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
That's what I was talking about on the last topic.
Think about Vandalands who will fatherland everything it doesn't want to spend on siege stuff into Rat Raiders and Hamsters.

Just the starting warband can fatherland in 10 more Rat Raiders.

But that's how Vandalands are supposed to play... They are the Horde faction... Much like Civitas is the "Mercs" faction because they can convert unused resources into gold.

My post was not, "there isn't enough to buy" it was, "the resource changes are bringing the game a smaller point size (which I'm okay with).

I was talking with Cy last night shortly after I made that post, My list is solid. I have a good smattering of ranged and melee, and fast things, I have no food and no lumber left, I don't have to spend all of my remaining gold, and even if I buy 1 horn, 1 banner, and 1 item for my Hero, I'm left with 105 gold and yet my list doesn't suffer. Sure I can't buy exemplars, siege weapons, or fortifications (those all cost lumber), but my list is fine.

Though she and I were tossing around the idea of allowing mercs from within Chugoku to be hired by other Chugokan empires. So like say I'm running Bao Yu the Red Claw Tactician, with the list I posted above. It'd be an interesting thing if I was able to purchase Wei Pine and Shu Hare Mercs for the remaining gold I had left.

But then we also discussed the idea of not having to fill up your points, because we know that other games you try to get as close as possible to the points limit in order to maximize the bodies on the table. In Brushfire we don't to really worry about that because we have 3 resources. With the exception of Civitas and Vandalands, every faction is going to have roughly the same number of bodies on the board, depending on what they buy. I mean in my list above, I could have purchased another unit of Red Wu with no heaters, and had 50 lr to spend on an exemplar or fortifications. But I chose to go with Lem Han because they provide an excellent tactical advantage, namely their speed and their upgrades. Rifles are better than most people give them credit for, and medium armor isn't a laughing matter. But that's whats great about wargames, because two people with the same army can play it two totally different ways.

Like you could stock up on a horde of rat raiders, fatherlanding them until you have a small swarm of them. Whereas I could run a Hussar and Valkyr list and fatherland any remaining resources into giving them screens of Rat Raiders. There isn't 1 set list, and honestly if we made a faction where there was 1 set, "auto-win" list, then I think we failed somewhat.

I have managed to read trough the basic rules of the secound edition rulebook. I list here the things that did not became clear to me or I think I would not know if I would read the book in the fist time.

Things the rulebook doesn't explain clearly:

-Are Fearsome units immune to Fearsome? In wargames I know they are.
-Infantry models with ranged weapons can shoot out from a garrison? Can a modell move to a garrison, shoot, then enter the garrison?
-Pathfinder: It has to be forest terrain or just hard(forest-like) terrain? what about like a.. park full of statues or ruins and so on.
-Sniper: Are attacks made with the Sniper ability can roll over? Sniper shot choose targets whitin a squad after all.
-The Term "Attack Roll Over" should be explained among the terms.
-Can you use the "return to cohesion" rule to activate a model with this squad that is too far away to be in cohesion and was not part of the squad in the previrous activation but otherwise is able to activate with these models as a squad?
-From how far away can you return to cohesion? If a five member squad on 30mm base is streched out to the maximum cohesion distance in a line, the distance between the two models at the edges is four times 3 inch plus 3 times 30mm, that's more than a feet. If the middle 3 model is taken out, can the remaining two return to chesion from a feet away from eachoter? Hordes can do this to reach amazing distances.
-Can you move into B2B to a Fearsome model and cheat the Fearsome check?
-How much of the model's base must be in line of sight to make the model be in line of sight? How this is calculated exatly?
-What happens if a unit gets lighten up with fire by an effect that causes no damage otherwise(like tactical/heroic action)? Is it threated as the model is hit with a 0 damage attack?
-Poison attack blocked by shield armor are considered as hit by poisoned weapon?
-I know there is a unit with gun that can use the heavy bolt ability. Does it recieves the free charge reaction also when uses the heavy bolt?
-How you aim with the Grenade? Is it template? Is it targets a squad?
-Hyperian fire lasts how long?
-It is not listed what happens when one shoots corpses with the trebuchet.
-"For a 5G upgrade, the Siege Ram Ignores Body Armor" - You can attack units with a siege ram?
-"The Gate causes Fire to Models that Charge it or attempt to use a Siege Ram." - What? Why? Is that a hellgate?
-A trench may not be destroyed, right? Then why it has Vitality and armor? how an enemy can move in or trought a trench? Isn't a trench is basically a hole in the ground?

The highest TS or HR often doesn't comes from any of the heroes, or units that have influence range. I find this strange, especially if when my ally-tageting heroic action gets negated by someone in the enemy army who is no leader at all. It's more annoying when this unit is in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to the fatherlandig.

In the end can you spend that gold or not?

Because if you can't, Vandaland is in a clear advantage since it can. Once the match starts your remaining gold is wasted while Vandalands doesn't waste anything.

While 100 gold in a 200 resource army is quite a large chunk of gold, I don't feel you have that large of an advantage. Since I have 20 models on the board with Crossbows that can always make a charge reaction, I'm not too too worried about being out activated. Yeah my Red Wu dropped a lot in their skills (going from a 5 Might and 3 Grace to a 2 in MS and RS)/

And like I said, if I didn't take the Lem Han, I would be able to fill out my gold easier.

Some Hero of Some Level w/Bugle of Hunter's Quarry and
10 CCG (Red Wu) w/ Heater and Dagger-Ax - 50fd/50lr
09 CCG (Red Wu) w/ Heater and Bingfa - 45fd/45lr
10 CCG (Red Wu w/ Bingfa 50fd
10 CCG (Red Wu w/ Bingfa 50fd

Siege Weapons:
Trebuchet
Trebuchet
Trebuchet

Fortifications:
Castle Tower
Castle Wall
Castle Tower
Castle Wall
Castle Tower

And because I want an ambushing unit of Red Wu in my army, and I don't have much left to buy, I'll drop 1 Red Wu w/Heater and Bingfa to get 5lr so I can purchase Gan Zi to run with that same crew (if I had 5lr more, I wouldn't have to do this).

That leaves me with 60 gold left to spend... and a really solid army. I deploy 3 Dagger-ax CCG at each tower with the Trebuchet, in each Castle Wall I place the CCG with Bingfa. Gan Zi and Red Wu are held in reserves to ambush from a Forest or River piece, generally behind your force.

And it would take a lot of rats to crumble the walls...


As to some of your other questions, I'll answer the ones I know for certain.

-How much of the model's base must be in line of sight to make the model be in line of sight? How this is calculated exatly?

If you can draw a line from your base to their base, they are in line of sight. If you have to pass through terrain,you check to see if you have 2inches of terrain to pass through. This is explained on page 15 of the pdf under Ranged phase where LoS is the most important (not to say that it's not important in the melee phase, but for the most part you'll be in line of sight in the melee phase.

-I know there is a unit with gun that can use the heavy bolt ability. Does it recieves the free charge reaction also when uses the heavy bolt?

Heavy Bolt is generally only on Crossbows and is the ability that gives the free charge reaction because it's a part of the ability's sentence. I don't know of any rifles or pistols that have Heavy Bolt. If a unit has both Crossbows and Rifles, they have to decide which one they're using. If they used Rifle earlier in the turn, they cannot get the free charge reaction as they don't have their crossbows at the ready.

-How you aim with the Grenade? Is it template? Is it targets a squad?

It works like any other ranged weapon. It's not a template (because it doesn't say it is). You target a model like any other ranged attack and make it against that model. Unlike other ranged weapons, the grenade is 1 time use.

-Hyperian fire lasts how long?

Cy corrected me on this, see below.

-It is not listed what happens when one shoots corpses with the trebuchet.

It is listed, it's just not bolded. It reads (and Corpses needs to be bolded: Corpse: All Models within 10” must make a Fearsome Roll against a
TD of 10.

-"For a 5G upgrade, the Siege Ram Ignores Body Armor" - You can attack units with a siege ram?

No, but some fortifications have regular AR and Shield AR

-"The Gate causes Fire to Models that Charge it or attempt to use a Siege Ram." - What? Why? Is that a hellgate?

The models manning the gate are dropping fire on you, part of the reason why you can't go through it because the invisible mice that man the gate won't let enemies through.

-A trench may not be destroyed, right? Then why it has Vitality and armor? how an enemy can move in or trought a trench? Isn't a trench is basically a hole in the ground?

Where does it say a trench my not be destroyed?

I feel like I've said this at least 5 times already... Heavy bolt gives you the free charge reaction. If it didn't it wouldn't be a part of the ability's sentence.

Hyperian Fire remains in play forever, you cannot extinguish it.

I'll get to the rest of your questions after some caffeine.

These aren't much as questions as feedback from the rulebook.

And I can't get over the Heavy Bolt thing because it's a two-fold ability that has an effect both in the ranged phase and when charge reaction happens.

The unit in question this time is the Aquatar Venture Co. Riflemunk. It can give it's gun Heavy Bolt.

It's Steady Hands ability is clearly a ranged phase ability and whily rifling and quick nock clearly only affects the ranged phase, Heavy Bolt is different. So, choosing Heavy Bolt will give the Riflemunk the free charge reaction for that turn?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Invisible fire-throwing mice are cool.

By the way as the walls and gates are priced, switching out all the walls into gates with the fire mice is looks like good idea.

Um... Where does it say that Rifling and Quick Nock only affects the ranged phase?

Playtest rules, Page 19 wrote:Counterfire - If your defenders
have ranged weapons, before
the Charging Models make their
attacks, your defenders make
ranged attacks against them.

The bolded emphasis is mine.

Playtest rules, Page 28 wrote:Quick Nock - This weapon
may make two attacks, but the
second attack has a -2 RS. If the
Model has not moved, it may
fire at a different Squad with
the second attack.

Rifling - A failed Ranged Attack
with this weapon may be
rerolled once per phase.

I'm not 100 percent on Quick Nock, but when you counterfire, you make a ranged attack. Looking at Rifling, it looks like you'd be able to easily get to reroll missed rifle shots. I'm fairly certain you'd get the same option with Quick Nock since it doesn't say during the Ranged Phase.

Heavy bolt just always allows someone to make a charge reaction even if they've already activated. The other abilities would only apply during the Charge Reaction IF you hadn't activated the squad being charged yet.

The Riflemunks are slightly different since they have to choose what they use, since they don't have a regular rifle. They have a Sniper Rifle which has the Steady Hands rule. So if they had yet to be activated that turn, they could choose Heavy Bolt during their counterfire reaction, make the attack and then have Heavy Bolt for the rest of the turn. If they had already activated and decided to give them rifling or quick nock, they wouldn't be able to make a charge reaction. It's very similar to the Weasel Fusiliers that in 1st edition could take both a rifle and a crossbow. They would have to pick which weapon they were using. With their update to 2nd edition, this is no longer the case.

Ah, I see... That's how it works then... Thanks. I would like to suggest to rearrange the text on the armory section and put these abilities into the common weapon ability list then, because they are not unique to their weapon anymore. That would clear up a lot of confusion in my opinion. Same goes to the Pistolieer, and the Pilum.

WhiteRoo wrote:
-Are Fearsome units immune to Fearsome? In wargames I know they are.

No. Only units that are Immune to Fearsome are Immune to Fearsome.

WhiteRoo wrote:-Infantry models with ranged weapons can shoot out from a garrison?

No, they are considered off the table when in the Garrison.

WhiteRoo wrote:Can a modell move to a garrison, shoot, then enter the garrison?

They move into the Garrison at the end of their movement phase, so no.

WhiteRoo wrote:-Pathfinder: It has to be forest terrain or just hard(forest-like) terrain? what about like a.. park full of statues or ruins and so on.

Forest Terrain is explained in the terrain section.

WhiteRoo wrote:-Sniper: Are attacks made with the Sniper ability can roll over? Sniper shot choose targets whitin a squad after all.

No, you pick your target before rolling and all shots must go against that target.

WhiteRoo wrote:-The Term "Attack Roll Over" should be explained among the terms.

We'll see about doing that.

WhiteRoo wrote:-Can you use the "return to cohesion" rule to activate a model with this squad that is too far away to be in cohesion and was not part of the squad in the previrous activation but otherwise is able to activate with these models as a squad?

If it wasn't a part of the squad in the previous turn you cannot use 'Return to Cohesion'.

WhiteRoo wrote:-From how far away can you return to cohesion? If a five member squad on 30mm base is streched out to the maximum cohesion distance in a line, the distance between the two models at the edges is four times 3 inch plus 3 times 30mm, that's more than a feet. If the middle 3 model is taken out, can the remaining two return to chesion from a feet away from eachoter? Hordes can do this to reach amazing distances.

Yes, and the models have their speed reduced by 2.

WhiteRoo wrote:-Can you move into B2B to a Fearsome model and cheat the Fearsome check?

Yes, and like 'walking' into b2b with any other Fearsome model you don't get any of the benefits of charging.

WhiteRoo wrote:-How much of the model's base must be in line of sight to make the model be in line of sight? How this is calculated exatly?

If you can see some part of the base you can shoot, but the model likely has Cover. Nearest point to Nearest Point.

WhiteRoo wrote:-What happens if a unit gets lighten up with fire by an effect that causes no damage otherwise(like tactical/heroic action)? Is it threated as the model is hit with a 0 damage attack?

Yes.

WhiteRoo wrote:-Poison attack blocked by shield armor are considered as hit by poisoned weapon?

If the attack successfuly hits, it applies the poison effect. Shield Armor doesn't can this at all.

WhiteRoo wrote:-I know there is a unit with gun that can use the heavy bolt ability. Does it recieves the free charge reaction also when uses the heavy bolt?

All special abilities follow this syntax: 'Name - Ability Text'. All of the 'Ability Text' after 'Name -' applies to 'Name -'.

Heavy Bolt - This weapon deals +1 DE on a Critical Hit; and may be used as a Free Activation to make the Counterfire Charge Reaction.

WhiteRoo wrote:-How you aim with the Grenade? Is it template? Is it targets a squad?

Its a Ranged Weapon, it works like every other range weapon.

WhiteRoo wrote:-Hyperian fire lasts how long?

Forever.

WhiteRoo wrote:-It is not listed what happens when one shoots corpses with the trebuchet.

Its listed in the Trebuchet ammo section.

Corpse: All Models within 10” must make a Fearsome Roll against a TD of 10.

WhiteRoo wrote:-"For a 5G upgrade, the Siege Ram Ignores Body Armor" - You can attack units with a siege ram?

No, but Fortification have armor.

WhiteRoo wrote:-"The Gate causes Fire to Models that Charge it or attempt to use a Siege Ram." - What? Why? Is that a hellgate?

The gate keeper drops boiling oil on the enemy. Historical!

WhiteRoo wrote:-A trench may not be destroyed, right? Then why it has Vitality and armor? how an enemy can move in or trought a trench? Isn't a trench is basically a hole in the ground?

The hole's only natural enemy is the pile.
You can easily collapse a trench, making it unusable.

WhiteRoo wrote:The highest TS or HR often doesn't comes from any of the heroes, or units that have influence range. I find this strange, especially if when my ally-tageting heroic action gets negated by someone in the enemy army who is no leader at all. It's more annoying when this unit is in close combat.

Sometimes soldiers are smarter then their COs, ask a Veteran about this.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Ah, I see... That's how it works then... Thanks. I would like to suggest to rearrange the text on the armory section and put these abilities into the common weapon ability list then, because they are not unique to their weapon anymore. That would clear up a lot of confusion in my opinion. Same goes to the Pistolieer, and the Pilum.

That's doable.

The gates are still a mistery to me. Do you get the invisible fire mice for free? I think this fire thing should only work if the defender do put some defenders on the gate.

Anyway why don't walls have invisible fire mice to throw down fire then? Can I build my castle out of gates? They are not much weaker than the walls, my units can go trought it free, they are 5 gold cheaper and have invisible fire mice. It's ridicious, but if it stupid but works, it's not stupid at all.

Whiteroo... there aren't actually mice there... the effect works without you having to have models there.to operate it.

The walls don't have the fire effect because.gates were usually trapped with hot oil or something like that... it also was easier to break through a gate instead of a wall...

Yes, if you would like to build your fortress out of gates you can.

We were trying to make these things simple, since normally people like simple things.

Yeah I know, it's just so funny...

But it's also pretty confusing that a gate on it's own can fight back. It's not what I'd call simple.

Consider it just trapped then? Like there are small ropes along the base that YOU know about, but your OPPONENT doesn't know about. So when they walk up to the gate, they trip the wire and *BAM* oil in the face.

Its simple when you compare it.to the fact that it just works... we don't have to tell you to treat it like a siege weapon or to add on rules saying froendly models need to operate it...

Okay, but why walls can't have it? Pouring over hot stuff from walls was also a big thing, not just from gates.

Like you can upgrade walls with a cauldron that does this.

I'd like to suggest to rewording on the siege ram so that it says it ignores the armor on the gate since those are not body armors (maybe include walls and other fortifications. I think siege ramming down a wall sound's wierd, but okay).

Also if the siege ram is just operated by four MS 2 units, with the 5g upgrade it can take down a gate on one swing. Unless a 1 is rolled. So it's pretty powerful. The units would die because of the fire, but how else you gonna take that gate down. It's can't be avoided.

Since there is only 4 unit can operate it, wording it like "add the 4 highest MS together" is not needed. Just "add the operators MS together".

The ram can take down the walls too with ease. With upgrade and a good roll, in one turn too!

Fully upgraded, it's a mini tank that goes around levelling everything on it's path.


Now I want to try it!

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Okay, but why walls can't have it? Pouring over hot stuff from walls was also a big thing, not just from gates.

You can put archers on the wall, but not on the gate.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I'd like to suggest to rewording on the siege ram so that it says it ignores the armor on the gate since those are not body armors (maybe include walls and other fortifications. I think siege ramming down a wall sound's wierd, but okay).

]

All of the Fortifications have 'Body Armor', only the Gate has Shield Armor. You can use the Siege Ram against any of these.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Also if the siege ram is just operated by four MS 2 units, with the 5g upgrade it can take down a gate on one swing. Unless a 1 is rolled. So it's pretty powerful. The units would die because of the fire, but how else you gonna take that gate down. It's can't be avoided.

You could take down the gate in many other ways, the Upgraded Siege Ram just makes things quicker so your units get at the meaty goodness inside.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Since there is only 4 unit can operate it, wording it like "add the 4 highest MS together" is not needed. Just "add the operators MS together".

Doable.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The ram can take down the walls too with ease. With upgrade and a good roll, in one turn too!

Fully upgraded, it's a mini tank that goes around levelling everything on it's path.

Shoot the operators. Shoot the Siege Ram.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also keep in mind that the operators of a Siege Ram move at Half Speed when dragging it, and cannot operate it in the same activation as moving it...

"body armor" on walls and gates and inanimate objecs sound's wierd to me.

Also, considering the fire, If I'd have the siege-ram-tank, I would take my chances on the wall pieces. Archers still can miss and can't ignore armor. This fire effect can't miss and ignores armor.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
"body armor" on walls and gates and inanimate objecs sound's wierd to me.

Also, considering the fire, If I'd have the siege-ram-tank, I would take my chances on the wall pieces. Archers still can miss and can't ignore armor. This fire effect can't miss and ignores armor.

There technically is just armor and shield armor. Armor represented by AR on the model/fortification without the shield tag. If something ignore(s) body armor, then damage from that attack will ignore any points of Armor from the target that does not have the shield tag.

It's also just fire, so it's a Vy test... Which can fail and is up to you failing it, not your opponent failing an attack roll...

 WhiteRoo wrote:
"body armor" on walls and gates and inanimate objecs sound's wierd to me.

Also, considering the fire, If I'd have the siege-ram-tank, I would take my chances on the wall pieces. Archers still can miss and can't ignore armor. This fire effect can't miss and ignores armor.

'Body Armor' is a standardization of terms. Valkyr also have 'Body Armor' that is just the wood and metal frame of the mecha suit.

Archers can still deal more damage then your 5 AR, All it takes is 3 Archers to do that.

Lets say you've got your fully upgraded Siege Ram (20L, 20G) that moves Speed 4, and gives its operators 2AR Shield.

I've got 5 Weasel Fusiliers up on the wall with Rifles. I Sniper your Siege Ram, 1AP knocks its armor down to 4.. 2 Shots remove its armor, and then 3 more shots finish off its Vitality.

Okay, but...

If we have a wall piece full with archers and a gate piece right next to it on A side, and a fully upgraded siege ram on B,

If B wants to assault A, where will he do it?

Logic dictates he would go to the gate and try to ram it. After all how hard can be to ram down a gate in comparsion to the wall next to it? Well the gate can be opened while walls doesn't built with this option in mind. Arrows/shots will rain no matter where the ram goes.

In game terms the wall stands with 15 HP while the gate with 10 HP and 2 AR shield. Body Armor is ignored because it's an upgraded ram. Let's say I use two rat raiders and two Hamster berserkers on the ram MS 3 and MS 7. and player B don't use any bonus on this.

Let's also say that player B has the opportunity to ram this construction of one wall and one gate.

Well, 2*3+2*7 is 20 is enough to get the gate down on any roll on the D10, or it's also enough to get the wall down right next to it.

What's player B gonna do?

It will say skip on the fire and rams down the wall causing 5 model casuality in the process and making the hole he needs.

If this ram is propelled by 4 MS 2 models, B still have the chance to get the wall down on one try on a roll 8 or more. Or it will definetly go down on 2, sparing B's units from the fire. Yeah, the units on the wall might have an arrow or two to say, but even if you take down the gate first try, units of player B still has to face them AND the fire.

So, currently it's wise to not ram the gates.

Isn't that wierd just a little?

Why was player B allowed to get so close to Player A's wall without being shot?

Like Cy said, 5 Weasels with Rifles can Sniper your Siege Ram. I can do that with automatically hitting from 25 inches away.

Why is that important?

Siege Rams has to go near to the walls or they worth nothing. So we can assume this siege ram managed it.

What I would like to say is that ramming the wall is a better strategy than ramming the gate.

Then Ram the wall, Siege Rams did do that after all...

Or burrow under the wall.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Why is that important?

Siege Rams has to go near to the walls or they worth nothing. So we can assume this siege ram managed it.

What I would like to say is that ramming the wall is a better strategy than ramming the gate.

And if your siege ram gets near my wall or my gate then they're worth nothing, so I could just as easily assume that I manage to prevent it.

The problem with all of your hypothetical situations is that you're only ever taking into account a very particular set of circumstances which is leaving you with a very narrow mindset of the how the game is and should be played. You're free to walk up the board with Siege Rams and attempt to break down my walls, just as much as I'm free to take things on those walls to shoot at your operators.

And since this is the playtest thread, you won't know the effectiveness of your siege rams until you get out there and play. Stop Theoryfiring everything and start playing Brushfire.

Edit: My posts might seem inflammatory, but they're not I'm just trying to get you to see the broader picture WhiteRoo. You do provide us with lots of good feedback.

With that said, I've got 5 Red Wu with Bingfa I've got to paint, I'll be back later.

Sadly, I have more opportunity to write here than play, that's true.

In the end every situation in this game is based on a wery particular circumstance, no? There is no broad picture whitout the small parts of it.

I know about a tabletop simulator that would allow us to play over the internet. It's free and everything, it's called "Universal Battle" (http://www.universalbattle.com).

Wanna try it out?

from a quick glance, that only appears to use D6s.

Honestly I'm finding all of the Siege stuff extremely off putting. Doubly so because I can't buy them at OTL.

I think I'm going to house rule Brushfire for my group. They will find it more appealing as a game and easier to digest without Siege warfare included. I will have to make house rules on the resources and stuff too I guess to make it work.

One of the main problems is the lack of purpose. The whole siege aspect feels shoehorned into a game that would function better without it. If you could download a free 'Siege Expansion Ruleset' where the stuff could be brought in as part of specific missions then I think a few people would try it out for a change of pace. Overall I just want to put down a load of terrain, hang with a buddy and make our little anthropomorphic soldiers fight.

Maybe that's just my opinion. If so I can, as stated, just houserule the game and let folks choose from one of my warbands when we want to skirmish. I'd probably have to houserule 'no exemplars' too since they would be 100% not optional. I could of course just pre balance my warbands but that means I wouldn't be driven to buying any more stuff which could quickly render the game stale for me. All in that's a fair bit of work I'd have to do just to find a willing opponent when there are other games I could just buy and play. I'd probably give it a go because I love the novelty of Brushfire but I don't know if I'd see it through and that would sadly relegate Brushfire to a cupboard which would be horrible.


Hmmm, that may come across a little rough but if it does I'm really just being honest, no harm meant. I want to play Brushfire. I just don't want to play by myself. Nor do I want the game to go stale. Nor do I want to rewrite the rules for my group. And I do want to be a OTL patron.

Am I the only person or part of tiny percentage of people that feel this way?

If you think it would function better without it.. then you should be easily able to ignore it.

You Do Not Need To Take Siege Weapons Or Fortifications Or Exemplars In An Army, and they are designed in a way that if your Opponent Likes those things, you're not screwed because you didn't take them.

Unlike say 40k, where you can easily be screwed over by taking an infantry heavy list while your opponent takes nothing by armor and flyers.

Another equivalent to what your saying appears is this: I don't like Axony, so I'm going to house rule that no one in my group can play Axony.

Not at all, that's a logical fallacy. It's the equivalent of, "I don't like the effect Axony has on the game and neither does any of my group so I'll write them out to make the game more enjoyable for everyone involved."

If it has no effect on the rest of the game if I don't use these things against an opponent who is then what purpose do they serve? I certainly would have resources left over so how can I not be at a disadvantage?

That's like saying, "We will take identical armies but I'll have all this extra stuff to kill you with and defend myself with and we will be completely equally matched."

Universal Batlle supports all kinds of dices from six to twenty side and even direction dice.

I also agree with Casey's Law here. I will have to have a lot of house rule. We rule with "only released models" now for various reasons. And one will have a lot of unused resource with the new edition if you don't take exemplars or siege machines.

I think that's the main point here. How many Brushfire players feel like that? If it's the majority then you'll gain more fans and profit by adapting to the general consensus. If we are just an outspoken majority then we will bend to the game you make or leave.

Outspoken majority is not what you think it means

minority*

Haha, good spot.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
These aren't much as questions as feedback from the rulebook.

I think this is an extremely important point. The purpose of reading beta rules and providing feedback on what isn't clear is not to ask questions and have them clarified here only. It's to have them clarified in the rules themselves so that they are clear to others.

If it's not getting across to people that units that are fearsome are not immune to fear, for example, you put in parantheses (this does not make them immune to fear). Just as an example- maybe that's already been addressed, I really have no idea.

But I am saying that because the point should be to see what people are having trouble with and improve it. I understood Much better how to play Brushfire after TempleCon, but I'm hoping that in the new edition, a forum or in-person chat with the creators will not be required to make things clear enough to play.

Hope that makes sense and is helpful. As WhiteRoo said, people posting in this thread are not just going to be asking questions for their own sake- they're providing feedback on what isn't clear so that those things can be improved. Therefore, WhiteRoo's list of points (which I saw you replied to individually Cyp, and that's great) shouldn't be taken as questions to be responded to here only, but feedback to put into rules text revisions to make things more fully explained and clearer, where they are causing confusion for others.

Even if they're technically able to be understood, it never hurts to explain things twice, or to spell something out that is a common stumbling block- for example, that a fearsome unit is not immune to fear . Again just as an example from the previous ruleset, not sure if it's been cleared up already in the beta ruleset... but I really hope the beta is Truly a beta that will be continue to be reworked and scrubbed until it's really as clear and fully explained as possible. Not, something that is good enough but still causing a lot of questions. Now's the time to make things crystal clear so that they cause as few questions as possible later (I want to say absolutely none, but we know that can't happen )

We do appricate the feedback, and are taking it in consideration. However, we do also need to 'see you work', tell us what makes you come about the conclusions/issues.

Why would you assume that causing Fearsome make you Immune to Fearsome? Would causing Damage make you Immune to Damage? There is no ability in the game were by simply having it you are also immune to it, and citing that 'OtherGame X works this way..' isn't a good reason.

But if you said "Does having Fearsome grant immunity, because on page X it says 'This' and that would imply it does?" we'd be able to locate the source of the issue, and fix/clarify it.

Just like Video Game Betas, the more you put into your bug reports the more we can get out of it.

Have you gotten a chance to read through the rewritten core rules RiTides? You were pretty good about pointing out issues with 1.2 back when you started out, we went and used a chunk of that thread (along with other peoples comments) for the rewriting process.

Okay so Alf pm'd me a question and I think the answer is of benefit to this thread at the very least for record keeping so I said I'd reply here.

Alfndrate wrote:Siege Stuff
I guess I didn't quite get your point, but what is so off putting about the siege stuff if I may ask?

The reasons my group of friends and I have found the siege stuff off putting are as follows(in no particular order):
- OTL doesn't produce the models but they are a large component of any army list.
- It makes the game much more expensive.
- It doesn't fit with combat in this scale, particularly with the quantity of pieces required.
- Using seperate resources from FD means it can't be replaced with more troops which ties you into playing siege combat.
- Having to enlist crew separately means siege equipment starts to leech FD resources which hurts the actual infantry combat further and pushes for higher level gaming to make up for it.
- It complicates the game to the point where it's just about siege warfare, the focus is entirely off of anthropomorphic combat. It would be a very exciting expansion book but it's a distraction from the core of the game.

That somes it up pretty wholly, I might have missed something or not been clear. Anyone who agrees is free to add to what I've said if I haven't summed it up well. I'd be very interested in an expansion that covered it and I'd probably pick it up for a laugh somewhere down the line btw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree with everything RiTides said there.

I'd also like to say that,

Cyporiean wrote:'OtherGame X works this way..' isn't a good reason.

this is actually a very good reason. Perception is based on experience. If a large number of people are automatically jumping to a conclusion then that needs to be clarified or it'll keep happening. This has to be taken into account with every single product, it's the reason shampoo packaging looks a certain way or why a character in your favourite book has that name. Otherwise your setting the consumer up for a fall and in turn setting yourself up for a fall.

Just my two cents.

I think that a the feedback we're getting has been good in 80% of the cases. There are a few things that make me scratch my head, which is okay, it's been a long weekend and without tone and inflection behind the words on the page, I can only take them how I imagine they're being said.

With that said, I was giving Cy some feedback earlier today, based upon my list building. I haven't had a chance to play with 2nd ed yet, so if you go back a page you'll see that I have a 200 resource list with basically 100 to 150 gold left. I made the suggestion to her that perhaps Chugoku gets an ability similar to Fatherlanding and w/e Civitas has, but instead of converting resource a and b into resource c, they can use gold to hire other Chugokan Color Guard at like 10 gold with standard equipment, and their specific Great Empire Rule. It's something we're certainly discussing, but My reasoning was that a lot of my gold and lumber was used up in 1st Edition by upgrading to pikes, heaters, etc... In 2nd Ed, I get a free poleaxe or crossbow, so at most I spend 5lr per Chugokan Color Guard to give them a heater, which tends to leave me with a bunch of gold. Now I don't mind having left over resources when I'm done with a list, but that's just me, and some people like spending every last point they can (nothing wrong with that either). I was simply thinking of a way that I could spend my points if I wanted to, or not lol.

That's sort of what we're looking at for feedback. You came across "issue x, and feel that it could be resolved by resolution y, so in the end we get outcome xy in the book.

Casey's argument in the competitive play thread suggested making Siege Weapons more expensive, because he felt they didn't have as much of a place on the battlefield as other guys. A fair point, and we discussed it, and we felt that they were in 1st edition and weren't game breaking, they were the same cost as they are now, and Brushfire is a historical parody game, and like Cy said... Siege Weapons played a large part in historicals,

Can this change as we approach the end of Q1 2014? Yeah, but we need people to go out and play, "see you work" as Cy put it.


Edit: Casey, if I remember correctly, we're trying to acquire a 28mm Ballista model
But with as many historical models as there are out there, it's not hard to find a trebuchet, cannon, etc... in scale with the game. And much like Flames of War, you can't copyright historical stuff, so people can have more product out there and keep prices down.

Edit the Second: You do bring up several points, but no need to go down the, "well I think this and you think this road" we've been traveling down. I've got fish to grill! But I am glad to get a concise, clear response from you on the situation

Several Good points, but they can also be easily countered.. but I'm not going to get back into that.

I will say that Brushfire is a 'Historical Parody Wargame' and has always been marketed as such, the Anthropomorphic visual style is because we're tired of 'Humans VS Orks VS Elves' in TTG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Casey's Law wrote:

I'd also like to say that,

Cyporiean wrote:'OtherGame X works this way..' isn't a good reason.

this is actually a very good reason.

But it isn't.

Or have I missed a bunch of posts in the Warmachine subsection that answers rules questions by using Warhammer FAQs?

Fair play to you guys. I don't want to get into a conversation with endless counter arguements either, haha!

I hope everything I said was taken positively as the last thing I want to do is upset anyone or belittle any of your cool work. I certainly wouldn't want this to effect our interactions. The bottom line is you guys have a cool game and although it doesn't suit my tastes exactly it may just be my twisted point of view.

As I say I can alter the game to get my group to play and failing that I'll just keep my hand in as much as I can. I still have a few warbands to collect afterall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Casey's Law wrote:

I'd also like to say that,

Cyporiean wrote:'OtherGame X works this way..' isn't a good reason.

this is actually a very good reason...

But it isn't.

Or have I missed a bunch of posts in the Warmachine subsection that answers rules questions by using Warhammer FAQs?

Come on, Emily! You know that isn't what I said.

Made Up Example:
80% of people think Fearsome units are immune to Fearsome because they share a perspective based on similar experiences.
It's your duty to clarify that so that they don't make the mistake. You can't expect 80% of your customers to email you asking for clarification or continue to play it wrong.

As RiTides said, if there is an issue being raised it has to be addressed in the rules not clarified via you.


I've made my point very clear here. I'd rather not keep back and frothing it if you don't understand what I'm saying if that's okay.

Yeah, I think my point was it's feedback for you to take or not- the playtesters, if they choose to volunteer for such, don't need to justify it. If it's confusing, and enough people say so, it's worth clarifying! My main thought on version 1 of the rules is it just needed More. More text, diagrams, examples.

Fearsome not making one immune to fear- all I know is everybody I've seen (myself, Gymnogyps, WhiteRoo, and I think even Catyrpelius) made this mistake the first time. Why Not clarify? The more explicit and fully fleshed out every single rule can be, the better imo, but especially the confusing ones.

An example from 40k in this edition is mixed armor. Drives people nuts understanding it. If you know something is tripping up all your playtesters, all I'm saying is don't rebut it (however valid!) but "fix" it! I.e., write a clause saying "fear causing units are not immune to fear". PP does this especially for warlock/warcaster entries, but also for other units, in a little box: "Note you cannot snack on a model removed from play by this ability".

I understand what your saying, but I don't want every issue brought up to be brought up because X Game does it this way. Especially when there is nothing in Brushfire to suggest it should work like X Game.

Like if there was a unit that had some text that said 'This unit has fearsome, but is not immune to it' that would give a reason for the issue coming up.

Infinity and 40k have Armor Saves, but no one is asking where the Armor Saves are listed in Brushfire.. and I feel it would be more confusing for us to say that 'Brushfire doesn't have Armor Saves' in the rules when they don't have anything to do with the system, along with being a waste of space to list and catalog everything that Brushfire does differently.

As I said, we're listening to feedback and making changes to the rules based on that feedback.

Otherthen Whiteroo (sorry to call you out on it Roo), lets get a count of hands of folks that assumed that Fearsome granted Immune to Fearsome

The reason why I write here is because I care about the game.

I was tried to only point out things that I find not good enough or seems wierd to me and not try to come up with ideas about fixing them. If you say you would like to hear the ideas, I'll write them down.

I just listed it . Gymnogyps, myself, and I think Catyrpelius! I'm not saying to make a note of it due to 40k, I'm saying for it's own sake. And I meant it more as an example- in case others also get confused by things from WhiteRoo's list (this one just stood out to me because it had tripped us up in our games, too).

Well, Warhammer Fantasy has fear mechanic and fear causing units are immune to fear. The mechanic is so common between games and most of the time it is true.

There is a reasoning behind it too: If you are a hamster barbarian red from blood(not your own), slain countless solders(actually twenty something but you don't even care to count) wielding two axes and just in the middle of ripping some heads off, are you gonna turn and run because that mouse over there has that wierd flag?

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Well, Warhammer Fantasy has fear mechanic and fear causing units are immune to fear. The mechanic is so common between games and most of the time it is true.

There is a reasoning behind it too: If you are a hamster barbarian red from blood(not your own), slain countless solders(actually twenty something but you don't even care to count) wielding two axes and just in the middle of ripping some heads off, are you gonna turn and run because that mouse over there has that wierd flag?

Perhaps that Hamster warrior is from a rather superstitious tribe, that believes flags marked with that symbol bring bad omens and diseases. There are plenty of reasons why a model that causes fear might be immune to fear.

While I didn't think fear causing models were immune to fear, I could see how someone coming from almost any other game would be tripped up by that. Though the important thing to remember in all games is what is written in the book. It's fine that people get tripped up (it happens to me all the time in games), but if you're unsure, you check the rulebook or make a quick house rule, and then after the game you check it out in the rulebook to make sure

 WhiteRoo wrote:
There is a reasoning behind it too: If you are a hamster barbarian red from blood(not your own), slain countless solders(actually twenty something but you don't even care to count) wielding two axes and just in the middle of ripping some heads off, are you gonna turn and run because that mouse over there has that wierd flag?

It could be a very scary mouse. But thats why you gotta make the Fearsome Test.

What if instead of that mouse, there was a massive beetle towering over the warzone and mashing your comrades into the dirt? There is always a bigger fish.


And RiTides, you may have just listed it.. but Catyr and Gym haven't posted about it in this thread. In fact, I don't think Gym has posted anything about 2.0 :p

So thats 2 Votes

Then what would make the big bug to loose it's nerves? Maybe the mouse with the flag?(Saying that the big bug is actually an Elite unit is not fair here)

But I believe that's not a point. The point is, the rulebook does not answer this question for us.

And believe me. I may not be new to wargames, I have played some not-so-solid RPGs and went tooth and nails with someone over an unclear rule for weeks. Just figuratively of course.

Yeh the logic there is that we, as humans, perceive things as afraid or to be feared. It might not be that clear cut but it's our automatic reaction.

But WhiteRoo, what is written for fearsome?

Fearsome - When an enemy Model/Squad declares a charge against this Model/Squad, they must pass a HM roll or their Activation ends immediately. A Model/Squad that made a Fearsome roll is immune to Fearsome for the
rest of turn.

Other Causes - Some Heroic or Tactical Actions may
state that they cause Fearsome under certain conditions. This overrides the normal cause of rolling when the Fearsome Model is charged. The effects of this type of Fearsome are still the same.

X” Fearsome - When an enemy Model ends their movement phase within X” of this Model/Squad, they must pass a HM roll or their Activation ends immediately.

Where does it say that models with fearsome are immune to fearsome?

If the rule says it doesn't do something, then it doesn't do something.

Well, I tried . I do think you guys will do better to take feedback and make changes while in beta, especially when several people notice the same thing! But it's your call

The real issue is, this was only an example, and a small one at that! What if there's a problem with a larger mechanic? A beta should be open to tweaks/changes/clarifications/improvements/etc.

 RiTides wrote:
Well, I tried . I do think you guys will do better to take feedback and make changes while in beta, especially when several people notice the same thing! But it's your call

We are taking feedback, I'm looking at the rule docs and there are a whole bunch of highlighted things from Cy. And adding a clarification is certainly doable, and not something I would be against. Remember, for the most part, wargames are rules as written, if the rule doesn't say it does something, then it doesn't do that.

That reminds me.

The Duke can now bestow Fearsome and Sniper onto range attacks but none of that is explained in Fearsome or Sniper rules.

What happens if a whole squad gets Sniper? Can they each choose a target or do they all snipe one enemy. If a squad causes fear with a range attack then what effect does it have? Does it only effect the enemy during stand and shoot?

On Sniper, Matt corrected me. Attacks will roll over to the next viable target after the initial target is dead. We're going to reword the ability to make it a bit clearer.

 Casey's Law wrote:
That reminds me.

The Duke can now bestow Fearsome and Sniper onto range attacks but none of that is explained in Fearsome or Sniper rules.

What happens if a whole squad gets Sniper? Can they each choose a target or do they all snipe one enemy. If a squad causes fear with a range attack then what effect does it have? Does it only effect the enemy during stand and shoot?

Is there a way for only one model in a squad to get Sniper? (legitimately asking, I don't remember any instances..).

Sniper Squad - The Squad makes it attack vs the enemy model they choose.
Fearsome Shooting - You shoot the squad, if you hit it the enemy squad makes a fearsome test and if it fails they can't activate. Its meant to represent pinning/suppressive fire.

The move when you walk b2b to a fearsome model is so wierd to me.

Until you don't actually charge it you will not trigger the fearsome test. You can still attack, just don't have the charge bonus.

I would suggest a rewording, maybe that would help. You see, this isn't really fear just kind of a shock. The run away part is removed what made it really fear like. We maybe trying to think about it as the v1 Fear, but it's just similar.

Call it "Hesitation". That is much more descriptive.

And just a page ago you said that Sniper shot cannot roll over.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The move when you walk b2b to a fearsome model is so wierd to me.

Until you don't actually charge it you will not trigger the fearsome test. You can still attack, just don't have the charge bonus.

I would suggest a rewording, maybe that would help. You see, this isn't really fear just kind of a shock. The run away part is removed what makes it really fear like. We maybe trying to think about it as the v1 Fear, but it's just similar.

Call it "Hesitation". That is much more descriptive.

Your opponent also cannot make a charge reaction, and Fearsome is basiclly just an extra free charge reaction.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
And just a page ago you said that Sniper shot cannot roll over.

And like I said, Matt corrected me.. so I posted that I was wrong about it.

Good answers, Cyp.

Because a model can have Sniper and activate alone that is what I read the rule in respect to and that's actually how I read all the rules since you buy each model as a seperate entity.

So I figured that in a squad each miniature could choose any target in the enemy squad. That makes sense logically as well as I imagine them choosing a target squad then picking their own individual targets to shoot at.

With fearsome, I think that could use some clarification as well please. Without you explaining it that's not actually in the current rules. It says that the targets activation ends immediately but not what happens if they haven't activated yet. I understand why it doesn't say that but I think it's a necessary addition due to the Duke(and possibly others).

Sorry then. You really mentionned it.

I think that is an another reason why Fearsome needs a rewording. put it to the charge reactions then... maybe.

I see already it's actually two mechanic. The area one has the chance stop you when you walk into it and the charge reaction one stops you when you try to charge someone whit it.

They are wery similar but trigger in different circumstances and times. Like the area one will stop you before ranged phase while the charge reaction one only after it.

I'd suggest to rework it into two abilities over these lines and not calling it fear. That gives people ideas.

With Patient lvl4. Does the Duke gain the buffs or does he gain the talent? It's not very clear although I would guess the latter after the 1st e version.

Is this clearer?

Other Causes - Some Heroic or Tactical Actions may state that they cause Fearsome under certain conditions. This overrides the normal cause of rolling when the Fearsome model is charged. The effects of this type of Fearsome are still the same, the model cannot Activate for the remainder of this turn if it fails the test.

Bolded is the added text.

 Casey's Law wrote:
With Patient lvl4. Does the Duke gain the buffs or does he gain the talent? It's not very clear although I would guess the latter after the 1st e version.

The Duke would already have the buffs, unless you consider your hero to not be a friendly model. All Rank 4 does is make the buff be always on for him, along with the freebie charge reactions.

Slight rewording:

Additional Effect:
The Imperial Duke always has the benefits of Patient Commander even after activating and may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations.

Much clearer!

I think Patient needs a rewrite too then. 1st edition was much clearer. I know it's a slightly different rule now but the wording is easier to understand.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Much clearer!

I think Patient needs a rewrite too then. 1st edition was much clearer. I know it's a slightly different rule now but the wording is easier to understand.

Just checking, did you see my edited in rewording of Rank 4 Patient Commander?

Cy did post a rewording for patient r4, did you mean r1-3

I haven't downloaded the 1st update for 2nd yet if it's in there. You may have rectified it then, does that mean you also clarified whether he gains free charge reactions or he gains it for all friendlies?

Kudos to Roo by the way, what a guy! I'm losing steam just proof reading a couple of pages, he's going through loads of this for our future benefit! The only way I could manage that is if i printed it out and made notes on it.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I haven't downloaded the 1st update for 2nd yet if it's in there. You may have rectified it then, does that mean you also clarified whether he gains free charge reactions or he gains it for all friendlies?

No, I posted it two posts ago :p

Patient Commander, Rank 4 wrote:Additional Effect:
The Imperial Duke always has the benefits of Patient Commander even after activating and may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations.

The next update hasn't been pushed yet, its just in a quote a few posts up. If it looks good, it'll go in.

Oh god how did I miss that. Bed time for Casey methinks!

It looks good but can you clarify if he gets the free charge reactions for himself or as an additional, additional effect for friendlies?

I think I have figured out the problem around the Fearsome. The definition itself is trying to bend the new fear rules over the old one.

How about wording it somehow like this:

Fear Test(or Feared/Frightened or something like that): A Squad may called to take a Fear test any time during the game. This squad have to pass a HM test against the squad tha causes this effect. Loosing the test means this squad have to end it's activation immediatly. If this squad have not yet activated this turn it now counts as being activated. Winning the Fear Test grants the squad Immune to Fearsome until end of this turn.

Fearsome: Squads charging a squad with this ability must pass a Fear Test first.

Fearsome X"(Fearsome Presence X"): Squads ending their movement phase whitin X" of this unit must pass a Fear Test.

(Fearsome or Fearsome X" does not grants Immune to Fearsome)

Immune to Fearsome: The unit automatically pass Fear Tests.

This way boons, heroic actions, tactical actions and unit abilities can call for a Fear Test. The Fear Test clearly says what happens if the test is lost.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Oh god how did I miss that. Bed time for Casey methinks!

It looks good but can you clarify if he gets the free charge reactions for himself or as an additional, additional effect for friendlies?

It doesn't say anything about friendlies in the talent, so its just for him.

Additional Effect:
The Imperial Duke always has the benefits of Patient Commander even after activating and The Imperial Duke may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations.

Yeh that's clearer.

Lame effect though. Of course I want them to be super, crazy buffing machines though so I'm hard to please in that sense.

I think whiteroo's suggestion of separating fearsome tests from fearsome as a special ability is something we'll do.

As it doesnt work like fear from other games I'd like to avoid using that term, bu I am taking suggestions of terms to use.

Frightened or Hesitation might work I think or Delayed or Shocked.

Maybe the test should be Nerve Test, Morale Test, Heroism Test or Will Test with keeping the Fearsome as the ability.

Ooh I like all of those . Very nice, WhiteRoo!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:
Have you gotten a chance to read through the rewritten core rules RiTides? You were pretty good about pointing out issues with 1.2 back when you started out, we went and used a chunk of that thread (along with other peoples comments) for the rewriting process.

I realized I missed this, sorry about that!

First of all, thanks for taking the feedback into account! Secondly, unfortunately I'm not sure if I'll have much time to playtest these rules during this particular time... I may be hearing back about a new job in the next few days so I'm a bit tied up with that (Dakka is supposed to be my stress relief... although it doesn't always work out like that lol )

 Cyporiean wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:
There is a reasoning behind it too: If you are a hamster barbarian red from blood(not your own), slain countless solders(actually twenty something but you don't even care to count) wielding two axes and just in the middle of ripping some heads off, are you gonna turn and run because that mouse over there has that wierd flag?

It could be a very scary mouse. But thats why you gotta make the Fearsome Test.

What if instead of that mouse, there was a massive beetle towering over the warzone and mashing your comrades into the dirt? There is always a bigger fish.


And RiTides, you may have just listed it.. but Catyr and Gym haven't posted about it in this thread. In fact, I don't think Gym has posted anything about 2.0 :p

So thats 2 Votes

I don't have acess to the 2.0 beta rules so I've just been lurking in this thread.

Cyp, in gneneral I agree with you that "because something works this way in another game I assumed it worked that way in this game" isn't a good reason to change something. However I'll also say that if something is a common enough concern it should be addressed.

Addidtionaly for the people play testing this. Reading over the rules and providing feedback is great, but what really helps a developer/publisher make a better product is using the rules provided to play through a game. Take notes during the game, referance page and paragraph numbers, note what caused confusion, what was broken, irrelovant or over powered and submit it as an event report. Offer crtitism but have a way to backup your feelings and offer fixes.

Playtesting is alot of work, it's something that I think alot of designers overlook.

At this point alot of companies would have made you sign a NDA, OTL chose to go the open and public route.

Got some more feedback which you might like. I'll type it up later when I'm not rattling around in a bus on a country road.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Got some more feedback which you might like. I'll type it up later when I'm not rattling around in a bus on a country road.

You tease.

I'm trying to build starting armies for some v2 testing. I'm working with these restrictions for convenience:

-Each army costs 25/25/25
-Each army uses it's warband list from the shop as these where warband packs freshly outboxed. Therefore the army must use the content list as the list of units it's going to run.
-None of the armies can add extra models to their lists.

I'm running into some weird problems with this, so my question is: Is v2 supposed to work inside these conditions?

All the warbands cost 25 food no problem there, but the lumber and gold costs are showing some problems.

The warbands were only built around 25 food + a hero. Lumber and Gold were left out of the calculations. The warbands are not balanced thoroughly. Nor are they intended to be on a competative level. They are really just a starter set to help folks undrrstand mechanics and get the minimum basic miniatures (hero and some troops).

Once learned, Brushfire should be played at more flexible 100/200 resouce limits.

I'm sure the game gets better as the resource limit goes up, but I think if someone is just starting out, these are the limitations he or she will face.

Is the game considered unplayable at this level or just roughtly balanced?

The problem is, Vandalands have not spent lumber or gold with this setup while Zabar runs out of everything by just picking up these units unupgraded.

So if the unit prices are ignored and heroes can't buy banners, horns and items, is the game roughty playable?

Vandalands has cheap troops, and an army rule to have them get more of those cheap troops.

Zabar has more costly troops that are better equiped and cannot amass them as well as other factions.


The Warbands are great starting points, but not great ending points.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I'm sure the game gets better as the resource limit goes up, but I think if someone is just starting out, these are the limitations he or she will face.

It's something you experience with almost every wargame. Though in my experiences, Brushfire plays extremely well with warbands. The Warbands with the quickstart rules explain what you need so that you may learn the basics of the game. Once you start buying more, then you move into the bigger rulebook. Getting used to the extra resources is certainly something that someone will have to get used to, just like someone learning Malifaux has to get used to the addition of a soulstone cache.

Is the game considered unplayable at this level or just roughtly balanced?

It's completely playable the balance might be a little rough but there were only 2 warbands that proved to be a bad matchup. Balance was still all roughly there.

The problem is, Vandalands have not spent lumber or gold with this setup while Zabar runs out of everything by just picking up these units unupgraded.

So if the unit prices are ignored and heroes can't buy banners, horns and items, is the game roughty playable?

Cy answered a chunk of this quote, but remember with a warband vs warband game you're only seeking to teach the basics. So you need to learn about activations, phases, making attacks, defending against attacks, squad creation on the fly, heroic and tactical actions. You don't need banners, horns, or items to make the game playable. it plays just fine without these

I think we will start with the Warbands.

The next level we can play is an 50 resource game. We don't have enough models yet to go further up.

There is no harm in playing at this size, or using proxies to try out higher levels.


We provide base size templates in the back of the rulebook for that reason.

 Cyporiean wrote:
There is no harm in playing at this size, or using proxies to try out higher levels.


We provide base size templates in the back of the rulebook for that reason.

*cough* Paperfire >_> *cough*

Can Shock stop a squad from using it's "may always make a ___ Charge Reaction" ability?

Hamster Berserker's charge causes shock. Do they can charge Otter Asigarus(with guns) and provided they win the HM test stop the Asigarus from counterfireing?

I suspect not, because the activation for the counterfire happens after the shock test. The hamster's ability says shock test have to be made before the charge reaction. Therefore the shock test maybe take away their activation, but they can still activate trough their always coutnerfire ability.

On the other hand if the shock triggers in the asigaru's counterfire activation it may stop the activation before the counterfire.

So how is it works?

If a model has a means to make a 'Free Activation', they can use it after being Shocked.

I'd suggest to add the text of shock that it has no effect if the target squad has been already activated.

Or add it to an FAQ.

Hrm... I'm wondering if it'd be wise to try and get in some 2nd Ed games at AdeptiCon...

It'd be doable, I'd just have to make some 2nd Ed Stat cards for whatever we're playing with.

Well, I was going to try and figure out a way to put the rules pdf on my Kindle to throw into my case, but I was thinking if we could just make a quick, simple pdf of a hero of like level 2 or 3, and then print the stat blocks for a few of the units, it'd be a way to gain some level of play testing feedback without "much" work.

Second (first) Question: This is slightly related, but how many badges come with the OTL booth at GenCon?

 Alfndrate wrote:

Second (first) Question: This is slightly related, but how many badges come with the OTL booth at GenCon?

4 Freebies, but I can get extras.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Second (first) Question: This is slightly related, but how many badges come with the OTL booth at GenCon?

4 Freebies, but I can get extras.

Do vendor badges cost more or less than a regular attendee badge? If they cost roughly the same and we need 2 more badges, could we not go looking into booking time at the Playtest Hall? It's 150 bucks and comes with 2 GM badges. The 2 people with those badges wouldn't be able to get into the exhibitor's hall early, but it would give us a chance to try and get some (read: potentially a lot) of playtesting feedback on 2nd ed.

They're cheaper.

If someone wants to run Brushfire events at Gencon in an area other then the exhibtor hall, they are welcome to. But I'm not going to deal with it.

I also don't think Gencon presents the best location for playtesting 2nd Edition.

 Cyporiean wrote:
They're cheaper.

If someone wants to run Brushfire events at Gencon in an area other then the exhibtor hall, they are welcome to. But I'm not going to deal with it.

I also don't think Gencon presents the best location for playtesting 2nd Edition.

I mean wargame playtesting seems like it would have to be something done more in a game store or a home location, but I figured if they were similar in price, it'd definitely be something to look into as playtest feedback with actual people that don't know the game could be extremely valuable. But if vendor badges are cheaper, feth that!

Also as to GenCon events, perhaps we can talk later... I know it costs money to run events, but if we have booth space to run demos, it won't be as big of an issue as it was in 2012.

Its not that is costs us money (that'd be less of an issue), its that it costs the players money: $4min.

I don't like charging people to try out a game.

We've got a 20'x10' booth, so lots of room over last year's 5'x5' subbooth..

A bare-bones version of the rulebook would be nice until the release. As in it's current form, it's quite inefficent to print out with many empty pages and that brown frame. I like the frame but to print it before every game or so...

Yeah... I should buy a better phone.

I have managed to play two rounds of V2 Brushfire today. Here comes the feedback!

The book looks amazing. I have printed it before the game and even in black and white, it looks really nice. The art is great. The style is incosistent tough.

The cards where missed. Are you guys planning to release the cards in PDF format?

In the secound match we have realized that horns are only ment to be used once per mach. I'd suggest to make this clearer in the book. It is says "horns can only be used once", but until that point everything says "once per turn", so I'd suggest to reword that line to mention "horns can be olny used once during a game".

The game was so much better after this got revealed.

There was two things the book doesn't seems to answer tough. What happens if models in a squad have different movement values and what if they have different charge ranges?

I believe the squad can move with the shortest move speed, but I can only guess the charge one. I think the book mentions that if one model can make the charge then all can, but I don't see this clearly from that.

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

Funniest moment: My opponent choose to run trought his devon brigardiers on my hyperion fire and slained several rat raiders and my warlord before they turned into ash.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I have managed to play two rounds of V2 Brushfire today. Here comes the feedback!

The book looks amazing. I have printed it before the game and even in black and white, it looks really nice. The art is great. The style is incosistent tough.

Thanks. Things will begin to get more consistent from here on out, as Heath will be doing pretty much all of the art from now on.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The cards where missed. Are you guys planning to release the cards in PDF format?

Yes, I just haven't gotten to updating them yet. I hope to have them ready in a few weeks, most likely I'll do one faction at a time.. Ribenguo, Vandalands, and Aquitar getting priority.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
In the secound match we have realized that horns are only ment to be used once per mach. I'd suggest to make this clearer in the book. It is says "horns can only be used once", but until that point everything says "once per turn", so I'd suggest to reword that line to mention "horns can be olny used once during a game".

We'll get that clarified.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

There was two things the book doesn't seems to answer tough. What happens if models in a squad have different movement values and what if they have different charge ranges?

Each model will continue to use its own speed/charge range, but will have to keep within Cohesion with its Squad Mates. We'll add a paragraph or three talking about different stats in a squad.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

This can sometimes happen, just means the next turn both squads have an equal opportunity to charge depending on who gets initiative.

One more thing...

The hyperion fire uses a 3 inch template to calculate hits and an 50mm token to lock off an area. Again, the the clash of the measuring systems.

Also the book needs a few template-attack examples.

The grenade is hard to get. I know it works as a shot, but it's called grenade. It maybe comes from those other games but grenades supposed to be template attacks, so it's a little headscratching. I'd suggest to rename it Bundlerbuss Pistol or Dragon Pistol or something gun like. It would be much more straightforward.

The smoke bomb should mention that it can be used multiple times. Everything else is one-shot around it. I know it is a "Bundle of Smoke Bombs", but still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

This can sometimes happen, just means the next turn both squads have an equal opportunity to charge depending on who gets initiative.

In this situation, the defender still looses it's activation?

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The hyperion fire uses a 3 inch template to calculate hits and an 50mm token to lock off an area. Again, the the clash of the metric systems.

We'll see about clarifiy this, a few games end up using Small or Large for denoting template size: Small being 3", and Large being 5".

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also the book needs a few template-attack examples.

Should be do able.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The grenade is hard to get. I know it works as a shot, but it's called grenade. It maybe comes from those other games but grenades supposed to be template attacks, so it's a little headscratching. I'd suggest to rename it Bundlerbuss Pistol or Dragon Pistol or something gun like. It would be much more straightforward.

A number of games don't consider Grenades to be Templates, since the blast is pretty small.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

The smoke bomb should mention that it can be used multiple times. Everything else is one-shot around it. I know it is a "Bundle of Smoke Bombs", but still.

I'll reword it for clarity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Also we have run into the situatuon once: when squads clash in close combat and all defending models in the first line are slain but the attacker still has attacks left and the defender choose to counterstrike. Now there is a gap between the two squads and nobody can attack because there is no B2B left.

This can sometimes happen, just means the next turn both squads have an equal opportunity to charge depending on who gets initiative.

In this situation, the defender still looses it's activation?

If you choose to activate them to make the charge reaction, they are activated.

If part of your squad is not going to be affected by the charge, you might want to consider not activating them as part of the charge reaction.

I think the problem is with the grenade that it is placed out of context. If it would be so much clearer around the ranged weapons. Also the Aquatar Badger Grenadier has it, so it is listed in a wierd place. Also there is two template weapons listed after it.

Is smoke bombs and/or hyperian fire deviates? Smoke bombs aren't aimed at anything particular -except the ground of course - so they will not hit enemy units, therefore deviate... except that's seems wrong.

Also Hyperian Fire is really useful just to lock down a particular route. will it deviate if I just want to drop it? Or can I just drop it down whitout aiming it at someone?

There are also the Climbing Claws and Signal Lamp in that section, neither of which are weapons or templates.

The Jar of Hyperian Fire and Bundle of Smoke Bombs do not Deviate, this will be noted.

Ranged weapons have range listed which is a big giveaway about their shot-like nature. The grenade doesn't have this. I'd suggest to add "the grenade is a range weapon that can be only used for counterfire" or X" Range, for counterfite only.

Then the hyperian fire and the smoke bomb can be aimed at nothing particular?

I had a question earlyer somewhere about if template attacks have to be initially aimed at valid targets where I got the answer that they have to.

I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'd just like to highlight this contradiction. So some template attacks have to have targets and some don't?

First off I’d like to apologize in advance. I may come off overly critical or harsh and I don’t want anyone to take it the wrong way. Also, I will openly admit that I have not played any games of Brushfire in either iteration so my observations are all theory, which you may take or leave. Finally please don’t be offended if I question the rational/purpose behind some rules or design decisions, for I am just trying to get an idea of the process that went into putting Brushfire together. I just want to see you guys put out a great game.

 Cyporiean wrote:
Zabar has more costly troops that are better equiped and cannot amass them as well as other factions..

I'm going to call shenanigans on this.

The Shaka War-Hogs have similar base equipment to the Axony Kernish Terriers who cost only 5 food.

But...

The Soqotran Corsairs are the ones that really confuse me. They are extremely similar to the 3 choice rules option type 5 food base troops appearing in numerous armies including Weasel Fusiliers, Rat Raiders, Mouse Conscripts, Chugokuan Color Guard, and Otter Ashigaru, yet the Soqotran Corsairs are the only one that costs any Lumber or Gold.


I've been trying to gather my thoughts in my free time for about a week and it looks like the discussion came up, so...

My rant today will be on Zabar, specifically on building a Zabaran army. So now it’s time for a story.

One day, not long ago, a handsome young man named Galen (that’s me) was wandering through the On the Lamb Games website, and, not finding any new Endless WIPs to drool over, found himself browsing through the Brushfire models in the online store. He saw the Hyena Witch Doctor figure and said “That model looks like one of my D&D characters, if I played Brushfire perhaps I would have to play Zabar. Shortly thereafter Galen ran into another model he liked, the veiled assassins. Galen was happy to find veiled assassins in the Mercs list and planned to put them together in an army one day.
Skip ahead a few months. Galen had the 2nd Edition PDF and decided to build a Zabar force like he had envisioned. After throwing in a good portion of Shaka War-Hogs (qty:12) and Hyena Witch Doctors (qty:8), Galen then took some Veiled Assassins (Qty:8). Using Brushfire 2nd ed. and the current Brushfire Mercs pdf this force came to 100/100/148, so naturally he looked for options to spend the rest of his food and lumber. After a quick glance it was apparent that there were NO options for spending food without spending gold in the Zabar list. He could spend some lumber on a banner, horn, and ladders, but exemplars, siege weapons, etc were out of reach without dropping some troops.

Zabaran List:

10X Shakka war-hog

8X Hyena witch doctor

8X Veiled Assassin (Merc)

cost: 100/100/148
28 Figures

It seemed odd to Galen that he could not spend all his food and so he tried to build a different army as a point of reference, making sure to include some Veiled Assassins.

Below is what he came up with -Note: at this point I am not factoring in Heroes unless they affect unit points costs

Aquitar force:

5X Badger-at-claw
Badger in the Iron Claws

9X Weasel Fusiliers
Badger Grenadier

5X Mongoose Legionaire
Aquicois Bazaine

10X Veiled Assassins (Merc)

This List comes to 150/90/150 before any Horns/Banners. It included 29 basic troopers, but also had room for 3 exemplars. On paper it seems better and more interesting than the Zabar list.


Lets take a closer look as Zabar list building. Here is the breakdown of the Zabaran army list focusing mostly on the units.

Zabar:
3- Named exemplars
1- Non-unique exemplar
1- Heavy cav 5/5/5
1- Infantry 5/5/5
1- Infantry 10/5/5
1-Horde 5/5/5

You will notice only ONE unit option in the Zabaran list that takes more food than lumber/gold to purchase. Zabar is also the only faction that doesn’t have at least one unit that costs only food. In fact, if I counted correctly, every other faction has at least two units that cost only food (counting mammaluke for Scyzantium.) This means that if the Zabaran player wants to use all of his/her food and desires unit upgrades, exemplars, siege weapons, mercs, or even banners then they MUST purchase the 10/5/5 infantry in sufficient numbers to compensate. If I want to upgrade my Shaka War-Hogs to have targes or to include the exemplar Oruc & Hizir I must either build my list without spending all my food or purchase enough Veldt Hounds to free up enough lumber/gold to make the upgrade. This makes for very derivative lists and quickly limits a players options in list building.

At this point I don’t necessarily want to say Zabar is weak or suffering competitively from this issue, though I am wary of the possibility, but I do think that the current Zabaran list is boring to build and lacks the options to make it fun to play long term.

Perhaps there was an intent to limit Zabar's access to siege equipment and fortifications, but I don't think it works well as written. Perhaps bringing unit costs down to 5/2/2 or making one unit cost food and lumber, while another only costs food and gold would still force Zabar players to make the hard choices without completely hamstringing them. Perhaps Zabar just needs some added specialist or elite units to help round out their options. One other option is to make Zabar exemplars cost food/lumber/gold in equal measure to balance out with the units. Making that 0/30/30 priced exemplar cost 20/20/20 instead would make me feel better about taking it in the current Zabar list.

I could keep rambling but I'll see what people have to say first.

Adjusting some Resource Costs on Zabar:
Unit - F/L/G
Hyenas - 5/0/0
Shaka - 5/5/0
Corsair - 5/0/5
Veldt - 10/0/0

Galen wrote:At this point I don’t necessarily want to say Zabar is weak or suffering competitively from this issue, though I am wary of the possibility,

Don't tell RiTides that... his Hamsters were massacred by the Shaka

Thanks for the feedback you two!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WhiteRoo wrote:
I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'd just like to highlight this contradiction. So some template attacks have to have targets and some don't?

The biggest thing to remember is when a general rule meets a specific rule, the specific rule is the one you use. So, if the general rule says, "template attacks must hit a target, or else they deviate" (or something to that extent), then all templates must hit a target. Then when you get down to specific template attacks like Jars of Hyperian Fire, or Smoke Bombs, if it says, "theses don't deviate" then in that instance you would use that specific rule . I believe we can certainly clarify this, but just a friendly reminder about some wargame stuff, since you've stated in the past that you're new to wargames

 Alfndrate wrote:

Galen wrote:At this point I don’t necessarily want to say Zabar is weak or suffering competitively from this issue, though I am wary of the possibility,

Don't tell RiTides that... his Hamsters were massacred by the Shaka

The shaka-wave build with hogs only costing 5 food is pretty scary good. A bad match-up for hamsters since the heavy cav rules mean the shakas are always going to get the charge, barring a trebuchet launched hamster ball or the hedgeknight ability (which is why I take those, to try to get the charge with hamsters). Not sure if the heavy cav rules have remained the same in 2nd edition but they were downright scary...

My original question about template attack aiming was if you can aim it to nothing. Maybe you want it to deviate on the off-chamce that it will go further forward hitting someone who is out of the base range.

Or you want to hit Tatamata of Ribenguo with his Gajin being active. Since template attacks affect all models under them no matter being friendly or not, aiming a template to Tatamata will count as a hit(no deviation). The attacker doesn't attacks Tatamata directly - well he/she does it on purpose of course - but it's a template attack, you doesn't have to aim it at Tatamata, just where he is.

It looks like to me that you can smash the hiperion fire where Tatamata is, and it doesn't going to deviate. Also, cannons and Trebuches can be aimed at him.

What happens if some unit starts it's activation on the hyperion fire? I guess it has to roll Vy check to see if it can stop the flames, but it stands in fire...

Can you stack fire for more off-turn damage? Like having two Vandalands Warlord on Sabotage and flame up the same squad twice? I think they will have to roll Vy against both, but they will only have to roll Vy once when they going to activate. How this works with poison?

 Cyporiean wrote:
Adjusting some Resource Costs on Zabar:
Unit - F/L/G
Hyenas - 5/0/0
Shaka - 5/5/0
Corsair - 5/0/5
Veldt - 10/0/0

Well, that really opens things back up. Now its time to go back to the book and so what fun stuff I can put together with these new numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Galen wrote:At this point I don’t necessarily want to say Zabar is weak or suffering competitively from this issue, though I am wary of the possibility,

Don't tell RiTides that... his Hamsters were massacred by the Shaka

The shaka-wave build with hogs only costing 5 food is pretty scary good. A bad match-up for hamsters since the heavy cav rules mean the shakas are always going to get the charge, barring a trebuchet launched hamster ball or the hedgeknight ability (which is why I take those, to try to get the charge with hamsters). Not sure if the heavy cav rules have remained the same in 2nd edition but they were downright scary...

The effectiveness of the Shakka and Hyenas are hard to gauge on paper so I didn't want to state that they were overpriced, just that Zabar lists as a whole were awkward to build. Now I need to figure out who to con into playing a test game, and If I have the right base sizes at home for proxie.

I know what you mean, I looked at the Otter Ashigaru when I first started playing, and was like, "honestly? I don't feel threatened by them." And then Cy destroyed me with three of them

That's what I like about the game (before I started helping with it) was that things on paper that seemed "less effective" often weren't. Though to be fair, I've yet to see an outright "bad" model in the game.

Remember even if you don't have the correct models, we do provide base size templates you can print out

 WhiteRoo wrote:
My original question about template attack aiming was if you can aim it to nothing. Maybe you want it to deviate on the off-chamce that it will go further forward hitting someone who is out of the base range.

Or you want to hit Tatamata of Ribenguo with his Gajin being active. Since template attacks affect all models under them no matter being friendly or not, aiming a template to Tatamata will count as a hit(no deviation). The attacker doesn't attacks Tatamata directly - well he/she does it on purpose of course - but it's a template attack, you doesn't have to aim it at Tatamata, just where he is.

It looks like to me that you can smash the hiperion fire where Tatamata is, and it doesn't going to deviate. Also, cannons and Trebuches can be aimed at him.

Tamatama, and models with rules like his, cannot be the direct target of an attack. Templates can of course Deviate onto him, which won't auto-hit him but will deal damage to him if they do hit.

Edited In: We're going to reword Templates so that any weapon that is a Template does not need to pick a target. The center point just needs to be within range,but if there is not a model under the template it will just automatically deviate. So you could just throw your Jar of Hyperian Fire at the rock next to Tamatama.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

What happens if some unit starts it's activation on the hyperion fire? I guess it has to roll Vy check to see if it can stop the flames, but it stands in fire...

If you failed the Fire Test at the beggining of the turn, no change.. You're still on Fire.
If you passed the Fire Test at the beggining of the turn, you're on Fire again.

 WhiteRoo wrote:

Can you stack fire for more off-turn damage? Like having two Vandalands Warlord on Sabotage and flame up the same squad twice? I think they will have to roll Vy against both, but they will only have to roll Vy once when they going to activate. How this works with poison?

No, you're either on Fire or you aren't. I'll add a clarification for this in the next update.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Got some more feedback which you might like. I'll type it up later when I'm not rattling around in a bus on a country road.

You tease.

Ugh, I've had zero spare time for this.

Is there any chance you could take the 'protected' lock off of the PDF so I can make notes on the move and in my spare time?

 Casey's Law wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
Got some more feedback which you might like. I'll type it up later when I'm not rattling around in a bus on a country road.

You tease.

Ugh, I've had zero spare time for this.

Is there any chance you could take the 'protected' lock off of the PDF so I can make notes on the move and in my spare time?

Kindle and smart phones?

I'm on Android if that's what you're asking.

 Casey's Law wrote:


Is there any chance you could take the 'protected' lock off of the PDF so I can make notes on the move and in my spare time?

Not sure what exactly you want?

The Watermark is going to stay on, but you should be fully able to Copy/Paste & Print the PDF.

A little gift for Whiteroo.

This will be included in the next WargameVault update, but I want to wait until I get a few factions done before spaming that out to everyone.

So while reading through, a few things occurred to me. Most important of which is that I freaking love the humour throughout it all.


Since I haven't had a chance to play yet, all I can comment on so far is that your work seems to be remarkably low on spelling errors and what not. I'm not sure if you want help with this, but here are the few things I could find as well as some possible wording issues.

Page 4; Grey Box; does the Dozen need to be capitalised? It's not in the terms section so I don't think it does.

Page 7; 3rd column; Test needs to be bolded
; 3rd column; X stat; You say that they automatically fail, and then the example says that they are unable to make attacks. If there are any special rules which activate on an attempted attack (even a failed one) then the distinction between those two (automatically failing and unable to attempt) makes a difference.

Page 8; 2nd and 3rd column; Justification issues with the text for the first line of several rules

Page 10; How do you choose table edges? You set up terrain, and then it's just 'choose a table edge'. Who gets first choice? Or do you decide that before terrain? If that is the case, it should be moved before the placing terrain.

Page 11; the Each in the final paragraph doesn't need to be capitalised

More to follow, my lecture is picking up again

Thanks Motyak, I've gone and fixed those.

To the best of my knowledge there are no abilities that trigger on an attempted attack.

The page 8 issue is being a little difficult with the way InDesign handles justification, but I'll get it dealt with eventually.

On Choosing table edges, what is folks preferred way of doing that? Rolling a Die? Youngest Picks? Knife Fight?

Monkey knife fight works for me, but then again we don't all have access to trained chimps.

Third party setting up terrain after you pick sides works in some cases, but there isn't always a third party present, so dice is probably best. But that's just my opinion.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I'm on Android if that's what you're asking.

I'm saying that there are ways to put pdfs on to mobile devices, that's all

 Cyporiean wrote:
On Choosing table edges, what is folks preferred way of doing that? Rolling a Die? Youngest Picks? Knife Fight?

Most of the time, we place it casually, then rol off and the winner either pick his edge, or choose who go first. In an alternating activation game, we just roll off. Or if one party set the board, the other pick his edge.

Page 12; 'If a slain or fleeing Model creates a ‘gap’ in Cohesion for a Squad, to Activate the remaining Squad on their next Activation, their total movement is reduced by 2” and the player may move the minimum distance required to place them back into Cohesion.'

This sentence seems a bit clunky. How about;

'Cohesion can only be broken if a Model is slain or is fleeing. During the Squad's next activation phase, their total movement is reduced by 2", and the player may move the minimum distance to place them back in Cohesion.'

Also, does a loss of Cohesion affect actions?

Page 13; You don't really specify what happens on 0 for stats, so perhaps Rush should change the stats to X for the turn?

Up to page 17 now. I'm really liking how these rules read, I'm probably going to proxy a game against myself with 40k figs when I get home from uni.

You would be better off with Warmachine and Hordes figs, as the bases are the same size

Trenchers shall be bulldogs, the Sniper will be Sharpe. I mean Sean. It'll be fun.

 motyak wrote:

Page 12; 'If a slain or fleeing Model creates a ‘gap’ in Cohesion for a Squad, to Activate the remaining Squad on their next Activation, their total movement is reduced by 2” and the player may move the minimum distance required to place them back into Cohesion.'

This sentence seems a bit clunky. How about;

'Cohesion can only be broken if a Model is slain or is fleeing. During the Squad's next activation phase, their total movement is reduced by 2", and the player may move the minimum distance to place them back in Cohesion.'

Also, does a loss of Cohesion affect actions?

I'll clear it with Matt before changing the rewording, but we should be able to clear things up.

Just a Speed Reduction if you choose to bring the squad back together.

 motyak wrote:

Page 13; You don't really specify what happens on 0 for stats, so perhaps Rush should change the stats to X for the turn?

We'll clarify it, but 0 in a stat just means you don't add anything to the dice roll, as opposed to X Stat's auto-fail.

Page 22; Hero's equipment question, do they keep their level 1 equipment when they get to level 2, or is it a replacement system

Page 23; So enemies can charge anywhere within 2" of your model which is B2B with the wall and as long as they hit the wall, they are B2B with your model

Items and all that; I'm leaving this alone because I haven't played yet so I can't really comment, but I do have another question, can anyone buy any item? Within their restrictions for armour and shields and what not. Or are they limited to the upgrade options in unit listings (like the weasel fusilier has an axe as an upgrade option)

That's the last of the stuff I came across in my first glance, and these last ones are just queries about how the game works, not errors of any kind.

Cyporiean wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:

Is there any chance you could take the 'protected' lock off of the PDF so I can make notes on the move and in my spare time?

Not sure what exactly you want?
The Watermark is going to stay on, but you should be fully able to Copy/Paste & Print the PDF.

Alfndrate wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
I'm on Android if that's what you're asking.

I'm saying that there are ways to put pdfs on to mobile devices, that's all

Yeh I've got the PDF on my phone fine, I'd like to be able to add annotations though. Is the digital watermark the thing that's stopping me? Is there a work around?

 motyak wrote:
Page 12; 'If a slain or fleeing Model creates a ‘gap’ in Cohesion for a Squad, to Activate the remaining Squad on their next Activation, their total movement is reduced by 2” and the player may move the minimum distance required to place them back into Cohesion.'

Also, there is no flee anymore.

Thanks for the cards!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are critical hits degrade the armor?

Critical hits ignore armor in terms of damage, but do they degrade the armor for the attack stacking?

For example, if I crit with a pike ( 2 DE 1 AP) on something with Heavy Armor(5 AR) and like 7 VY, will the target stays at 5 VY, 4AR or 5 VY 2 AR?

Similar for lucky hits. One point of damage will be applied but is that a +1 damage or will that reduces the damage the armor takes?

The book doesn't seems to answer this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Feedback from the 2.0.4 rulebook.

I'd suggest to highlight the texts of "Step 1", "Step 2" and so on on the siege machines section.

I'd suggest to add a little description to the mission types that summarizes what is the mission is about, like "During an objective Destruction mission the defender do it's best to protect an objective while the Attacker tries to destroy it."
This would help the overall reading experience because until you read all the text of the mission type you have no idea what is it about.

The text of the Killpoint Mission still uses the terms "hard/soft cover"

I would like to suggest to give victory point rewards to players after slain enemy heroes when determining the victor on a Killpoint mission. If your hero(es) weights nothing in terms of victory points they will become both your strongest unit and the least important target which is an interesting mechanic to be sure, but it feels weird to me.

This would change so much on low resource number games when your hero is is the most badass thing in the field.

No Powder Keg Mission? I made the kegs and everything!

During an objective destruction mission the defender gets 50 points more resource and after that 100 points more of fortifications. Is this 100 gold and 100 lumber, or 100 points of general resource? I think it's the latest. but if it is, I don't find where the book describes the "general resources".

Also the bonus general resource doesn't scale with the resource limit, which would help playing this mission type on lower resource limits.

I'd suggest the restructure of the text here because the attacker's bonus is described in the pre-game section while the defender's bonus is described both on the pre-game and the setup sections. It's just hard to follow.

Reading further I would suggest an "Attackers bonus resources" and a "Defender's bonus resources" sections. Also, "Deployment rules for the Attacker" and "Deployment for the Defender", because when I will try to setup a game I would need those sections separated.

On Last Stand the resource limit should scale for higher or lover resource game. 100 points of difference is not much on a 300 point game while it equals the combined armies of an 50 point game.

The missions in the tournament packet and the missions in the book are not finalized by any means. We're still working on those.

Also we've yet to "translate" the missions from 1st ed to 2nd ed. They're on our list of things to do.

motyak wrote:
Page 22; Hero's equipment question, do they keep their level 1 equipment when they get to level 2, or is it a replacement system

Models keep any previous equipment when upgrading, including Heroes.

motyak wrote:Page 23; So enemies can charge anywhere within 2" of your model which is B2B with the wall and as long as they hit the wall, they are B2B with your model

Its meant to be the other side of the wall, but yes.

motyak wrote:Items and all that; I'm leaving this alone because I haven't played yet so I can't really comment, but I do have another question, can anyone buy any item? Within their restrictions for armour and shields and what not. Or are they limited to the upgrade options in unit listings (like the weasel fusilier has an axe as an upgrade option)

Models get any equipment that is listed as 'Standard Equipment' for free, and can only purchase equipment that is listed as 'Upgrade Equipment'

Heroes and Exemplars may freely purchase Accessories.

WhiteRoo wrote:

 motyak wrote:
Page 12; 'If a slain or fleeing Model creates a ‘gap’ in Cohesion for a Squad, to Activate the remaining Squad on their next Activation, their total movement is reduced by 2” and the player may move the minimum distance required to place them back into Cohesion.'

Also, there is no flee anymore.

Thanks for the cards!

The Flee Charge Reaction still exists, but you are right in that likely wouldn't loose cohesion from it.

WhiteRoo wrote:
Are critical hits degrade the armor?

No, they bypass it completely.

WhiteRoo wrote:Similar for lucky hits. One point of damage will be applied but is that a +1 damage or will that reduces the damage the armor takes?

A Lucky Hit deals 1 DE to the target's VY regardless of how much Armor is left, as long as you haven't dealt any damage to the target's VY in this phase. This does not reduce the armor further.

WhiteRoo wrote:I'd suggest to highlight the texts of "Step 1", "Step 2" and so on on the siege machines section.

Doable.

 Cyporiean wrote:


A Lucky Hit deals 1 DE to the target's VY regardless of how much Armor is left, as long as you haven't dealt any damage to the target's VY in this phase. This does not reduce the armor further.

I don't get this one.

So if you Lucky Hit with Pike(2 DE 1 AP) someone who is at 5 AR 7 VY, it goes down to 3 AR, 6 VY?

As AP applies then the 2 DE hit would further reduce the armor, but it is a Lucky Hit so the 2 DE gets distributed to the AR and VY. The Lucky Hit applies 1 DE to VY and the remaining 1 DE goes to the armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the AP value of a Critical Hit does reduces the armor of the defender, right?

So there's no way to annotate?

I don't want to download a bypass 'cause it seems a bit shifty but I do like to add notes so I might have to anyway.

AP reduces Armor automatically.

So 5AR is now 4AR
One Pikes hit this target, it's lucky.
It does a total of 2DE, the target is at 2 AR and has lost no VY. They effect from Lucky Hit applies and the target takes 1DE to its VY.

 Casey's Law wrote:
So there's no way to annotate?

I don't want to download a bypass 'cause it seems a bit shifty but I do like to add notes so I might have to anyway.

Without Adobe Acrobat (not Acrobat reader) I don't know of a way to edit pdf files... You may have to take a notebook with you and jot your notes like that....

 Cyporiean wrote:
AP reduces Armor automatically.

So 5AR is now 4AR
One Pikes hit this target, it's lucky.
It does a total of 2DE, the target is at 2 AR and has lost no VY. They effect from Lucky Hit applies and the target takes 1DE to its VY.

So the target would end up from 5 AR 7 VY to 2 AR 6 VY.

Right?

(In other words... A face value of 9 of an attack roll grants that attack "1 DE, ignores all armor" on top of the base damage IF the DE of this attack is completely soaked up by the defenders armor)

Also, if the defender has no armor, then Critical and Lucky has no additional effect, right?

 WhiteRoo wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
AP reduces Armor automatically.

So 5AR is now 4AR
One Pikes hit this target, it's lucky.
It does a total of 2DE, the target is at 2 AR and has lost no VY. They effect from Lucky Hit applies and the target takes 1DE to its VY.

So the target would end up from 5 AR 7 VY to 2 AR 6 VY.

Right?

(In other words... A face value of 9 of an attack roll grants that attack "1 DE, ignores all armor" on top of the base damage IF the DE of this attack is completely soaked up by the defenders armor)

Also, if the defender has no armor, then Critical and Lucky has no additional effect, right?

If your attacks don't reduce the armor of the model to 0 in that phase, then a lucky hit deals 1 DE regardless of remaining armor. Critical hits ignore all armor and do the DE listed on the Weapon. If you hit a target with a lucky hit that has no armor, you deal damage as normal. Same with Crits.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
So there's no way to annotate?

I don't want to download a bypass 'cause it seems a bit shifty but I do like to add notes so I might have to anyway.

Without Adobe Acrobat (not Acrobat reader) I don't know of a way to edit pdf files... You may have to take a notebook with you and jot your notes like that....

Adobe Reader for Android is fully capable of adding annotations. The problem is the file is 'protected' which stops me using that tool. Can you remove that status?

 Alfndrate wrote:

If your attacks don't reduce the armor of the model to 0 in that phase, then a lucky hit deals 1 DE regardless of remaining armor. Critical hits ignore all armor and do the DE listed on the Weapon. If you hit a target with a lucky hit that has no armor, you deal damage as normal. Same with Crits.

What I'm trying to figure out is where that 1 DE comes from. Is it 1 DE from the weapon's damage that gets trough armor but in turn doesn't degrades it(so the total damage* is the same just the distribution is different) , or is it basically +1 bonus damage(as the total damage is one point higher)?

*total damage: Combined Armor and Vitality reduction from this attack.

So far it looks like to me, it is bonus damage.

It's 1 DE, it doesn't come from the weapon profile, it just happens. And it only happens should you get a lucky hit against an opponent with armor that you can't get through.

It's not bonus damage, it's DE that occurs if you wouldn't normally get through the armor.

Say I roll to hit you with my 2 attacks. The AP is taken out of the attack, and I roll 8s to hit you. If you've got 5AR, I drop your AR by 1 (say I have a pistol and sword). IF I hit with both of those attacks, I won't deal any VY damage because I didn't overcome your armor. Now if I roll an 8 and a 9 and still hit you, I've reduced your 5AR by 1 due to AP on my weapons. Then I hit you with 1 attack (say my sword), which would drop your AR by an additional point. You still have 3 AR left. So my Pistol, normally wouldn't do any DE since it's only 1 DE and you have 3AR left. BUT since I rolled a lucky hit, I've managed to find a chink in your armor, and manage to do 1 DE. The principles apply no matter the weapon that's used, if I hit you with a lucky hit, I deal 1 DE.

Now if you I were attacking you with 2 Red Wu with Pikes, and you had Medium Armor 3AR. the AP on my Pikes removes 1 AR (you're down to 2AR since AP doesn't stack, you only count the highest AP). Then I roll to hit, and both of them hit, and 1 of those hits is a Lucky hit. The first attack removes the 2 AR you have left, and the other one (the lucky hit) hits you for 2 VY since you have no AR left. Now if I were to have missed with that first Pike, but still got my Lucky Hit with the second pike, I wouldn't normally deal VY damage because I don't have enough damage to break through your AR, but the lucky hit deals 1 DE, because I found a gap in your armor... thus why it's lucky.

Remember, Criticals always hit regardless of totals, and they deal DE and Ignore AR. Lucky Hits MUST hit the target and must not degrade AR to 0. If you degrade AR to 0 with a lucky hit, it's a regular hit.

Make sense?

It's just a single point of bonus damage that only appears if you wouldn't have done damage to the target's VY

Am I not understanding what you're saying? I'm not trying to be difficult.

The rest of my stuff arrived today btw, Emily.

 Casey's Law wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
So there's no way to annotate?

I don't want to download a bypass 'cause it seems a bit shifty but I do like to add notes so I might have to anyway.

Without Adobe Acrobat (not Acrobat reader) I don't know of a way to edit pdf files... You may have to take a notebook with you and jot your notes like that....

Adobe Reader for Android is fully capable of adding annotations. The problem is the file is 'protected' which stops me using that tool. Can you remove that status?

There is no option in Indesign that I am seeing to make something 'protected' or 'unprotected', nor is there anything about disabling annotations.

Hmmm, it's definitely got a big ole lock on it.

If you can see about taking it off it'd be really great.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Hmmm, it's definitely got a big ole lock on it.

If you can see about taking it off it'd be really great.

My only guess is the Watermarking provided by WargameVault is causing it, and if so, you're stuck with it.

Mercs isn't locked if that helps.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Mercs isn't locked if that helps.

Does it have the WargameVault Watermark?

It's Wargames Vault... I just downloaded the mercs document from them, and it was watermarked, and while I could make comments, I could not save the PDF. And the same holds true for the 2nd Ed Rulebook. It's protected by Adobe's DRM...

The problem is I have no idea where the watermark is or what it looks like. I thought it was digital when you first mentioned it which I wouldn't be able to find.

What I have just noticed is the 1st e and 2nd e rulebook have order numbers in the bottom left of each page which Mercs doesn't. I got them all from WV but I can annotate Mercs as I please and save it for later.

The "order number" on the bottom left hand corner is the watermark It should contain your name and a number.

So Lucky 1 DE is bonus damage.

Just one thing about this: If I attack one enemy unit with five of my own, I have to get trough it's AR and VY combined minus my squad's biggest AP. Let's say all my attacks hit. Most likely I will have to get trought the whole AR+VY-AP. I may score a crit or two but not all, so I will have to apply this amount of damage. Lucky hits are the best I can get and not Crits. Crits will not matter in the grand scheme of this attack since it only going to reduce the AR+VY-AP amount with the weapon's damage. Lucky's however are much better because they shred one more point. I find this wierd. Yeah, it's no difference if the defender has no armor, but even rat raiders have more armor than life points.

Speaking of rat raiders. If I equip a squad with Poleax except one wich is on anything else, I have a squad that has 1 AP and most members deal 3 DE. (also immune fire, immune poison, immune shock). Actually this is confusing. Will that one rat raider get Shock, poison or fire? It propably is. I might have to mark that one tough.

But this goes somewhere... Five member on Poleax, five on Medium Armor and five on Pike. This squad has 1 AP, the highest most common body AR is 3, the highest most common shield AR is 2 altough I don't think I can count the highest most common AR against ranged attacks to be 5, but 4 is not bad at all. During charge I put the Poleax ones to the first line for maxing out damage...

I can activate this squad trough the horde special rule, but can I use the next logic?
I can activate the Warlord, and trough Dishonor Guard, those rat raiders with him and trough the rat raider's horde nature, any other type of rat raider around?

(I shoud go to sleep, I just wanted to share this)

On Page 6, armor piercing
Why is it important it is also gets applied when the attack misses? it get's appied before any attack roll, so adding this extra info is just confusing.

And what about attack roll over then? AP is ignored when an attack rolls over to a model that is not in the defending squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I screwed it up. The Highest most common armor is 1. both the body and the shield armor. But having just two types of rat raider still can be interesting.

Luckies DO NOT give 1 DE extra if you actually deal damage.

If your model deals damage to the target's VY, Lucky Hits Do not do anything beyond what a regular attack would do.

Its only a little bonus for when you wouldn't have actually harmed the model.

Additionally, even if you get 20 lucky hits and still manage to not get through AR.. its still only 1 DE.

On the Rat Raider, each model only has what it has, It does not give its squad the bonuses. Just having an Ordenstaat Rat in the squad does not make the full squad immune to stuff, just that one Rat. If a Poleax Rat and a Pike Rat both attack the same target model, then the Higher AP applies. If the Pike Rat attacks a different model from the Poleax Rat you get whatever AP is actually attacking the model.


Only the Rats with Dishonor Guard would be able to activate with the Warlord.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
So Lucky 1 DE is bonus damage.

Just one thing about this: If I attack one enemy unit with five of my own, I have to get trough it's AR and VY combined minus my squad's biggest AP. Let's say all my attacks hit. Most likely I will have to get trought the whole AR+VY-AP. I may score a crit or two but not all, so I will have to apply this amount of damage. Lucky hits are the best I can get and not Crits. Crits will not matter in the grand scheme of this attack since it only going to reduce the AR+VY-AP amount with the weapon's damage. Lucky's however are much better because they shred one more point. I find this wierd. Yeah, it's no difference if the defender has no armor, but even rat raiders have more armor than life points.

Crits = Damage of the Weapon ignoring armor, happens whether or not you lower AR to 0 or not.

Lucky Hits = 1DE and ONLY if you would normally hit with that roll (so a 9+MS > enemy's Roll+Evade Skill) AND you don't do enough damage to lower AR to 0. If you do enough damage to lower AR to 0, then your Lucky Hit = Regular hit...

 Cyporiean wrote:


On the Rat Raider, each model only has what it has, It does not give its squad the bonuses. Just having an Ordenstaat Rat in the squad does not make the full squad immune to stuff, just that one Rat. If a Poleax Rat and a Pike Rat both attack the same target model, then the Higher AP applies. If the Pike Rat attacks a different model from the Poleax Rat you get whatever AP is actually attacking the model.

Now I'm confused. Armor Penetration says "The highest AP of the attacking Squad applies to all Models of the defending Squad", so activating a Pike rat with the Poleax rats does gives the squad 1 AP(and ruins the whole day for the enemy squad). And since squad targets squad and not individual models target individual models, this cheesiness (get it? ) does seems to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Lucky Hits = 1DE and ONLY if you would normally hit with that roll (so a 9+MS > enemy's Roll+Evade Skill) AND you don't do enough damage to lower AR to 0. If you do enough damage to lower AR to 0, then your Lucky Hit = Regular hit...

Isn't that... you don't do enough damage to lower the AR to 0 AND exceed that with at least one point? If the defender has 2 AR and you hit with 2 DE, that attack still get's blocked by armor.

I think I finally understand how does it works.

How would a poleaxe rat and a pike rat even activate in the same squad, they aren't equipped the same.

I know I'm probably missing something simple here though

Rat Raiders are horde infantry which allows them to activate with different equipment.

 Alfndrate wrote:
The "order number" on the bottom left hand corner is the watermark It should contain your name and a number.

Oh, balls. It seems to be an entirely random number, no name, and the the Mercenaries PDF doesn't have it but I haven't updated that for a while. Does that mean it's a new thing they've started doing and if so could they remove it?

Also I just read back over this PDF conversation as a refresher and I've been a bit sharp. Sorry about that, I'm just replying on the fly, no harm meant.

Aaaand! I realised I very rudely never said 'thanks' for getting those cards and dice to me. So thanks!

 WhiteRoo wrote:
Rat Raiders are horde infantry which allows them to activate with different equipment.

Paired with your cat avatar, your response made me laugh. Thanks for setting me straight

My name is Maurice and these are my Educated Rodents.

Anyone who likes Pratchett is OK in my book.


Also you are correct about AP in melee, the highest applies to all models in the target squad.

And Alph misspoke, if you only reduce AR to 0, but do no damage to VY, you get the 1 DE from lucky hit.

I'm going to be holding blind playtesting this weekend in Massillon and Ashland, Ohio. I know we've got a lot of international players, but if anyone is lurking in these forums is near these locations, send me a PM.

I have to say I'm really looking forward to the new Aquitar units...

I will have a Bel Neyette... Just have to find someone to sculpt him in a lab coat for me...

The Grenadier's are going to be interesting... I'd hate to face them in combat. I'm excited for drummers and standard bearers. They should really enhance large blobs of my infantry allowing me to use proper nepolionic tactics. I actually think these new units are going to steer me away from useing unique exemplars.

I really like the changes to the Fusilier's

What do blast goggles do?

Lab Coat?

Blast Goggles should be Blast Armor (same thing as the Gophers)