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Yeh the logic there is that we, as humans, perceive things as afraid or to be feared. It might not be that clear cut but it's our automatic reaction.

But WhiteRoo, what is written for fearsome?

Fearsome - When an enemy Model/Squad declares a charge against this Model/Squad, they must pass a HM roll or their Activation ends immediately. A Model/Squad that made a Fearsome roll is immune to Fearsome for the
rest of turn.

Other Causes - Some Heroic or Tactical Actions may
state that they cause Fearsome under certain conditions. This overrides the normal cause of rolling when the Fearsome Model is charged. The effects of this type of Fearsome are still the same.

X” Fearsome - When an enemy Model ends their movement phase within X” of this Model/Squad, they must pass a HM roll or their Activation ends immediately.

Where does it say that models with fearsome are immune to fearsome?

If the rule says it doesn't do something, then it doesn't do something.

Well, I tried . I do think you guys will do better to take feedback and make changes while in beta, especially when several people notice the same thing! But it's your call

The real issue is, this was only an example, and a small one at that! What if there's a problem with a larger mechanic? A beta should be open to tweaks/changes/clarifications/improvements/etc.

 RiTides wrote:
Well, I tried . I do think you guys will do better to take feedback and make changes while in beta, especially when several people notice the same thing! But it's your call

We are taking feedback, I'm looking at the rule docs and there are a whole bunch of highlighted things from Cy. And adding a clarification is certainly doable, and not something I would be against. Remember, for the most part, wargames are rules as written, if the rule doesn't say it does something, then it doesn't do that.

That reminds me.

The Duke can now bestow Fearsome and Sniper onto range attacks but none of that is explained in Fearsome or Sniper rules.

What happens if a whole squad gets Sniper? Can they each choose a target or do they all snipe one enemy. If a squad causes fear with a range attack then what effect does it have? Does it only effect the enemy during stand and shoot?

On Sniper, Matt corrected me. Attacks will roll over to the next viable target after the initial target is dead. We're going to reword the ability to make it a bit clearer.

 Casey's Law wrote:
That reminds me.

The Duke can now bestow Fearsome and Sniper onto range attacks but none of that is explained in Fearsome or Sniper rules.

What happens if a whole squad gets Sniper? Can they each choose a target or do they all snipe one enemy. If a squad causes fear with a range attack then what effect does it have? Does it only effect the enemy during stand and shoot?

Is there a way for only one model in a squad to get Sniper? (legitimately asking, I don't remember any instances..).

Sniper Squad - The Squad makes it attack vs the enemy model they choose.
Fearsome Shooting - You shoot the squad, if you hit it the enemy squad makes a fearsome test and if it fails they can't activate. Its meant to represent pinning/suppressive fire.

The move when you walk b2b to a fearsome model is so wierd to me.

Until you don't actually charge it you will not trigger the fearsome test. You can still attack, just don't have the charge bonus.

I would suggest a rewording, maybe that would help. You see, this isn't really fear just kind of a shock. The run away part is removed what made it really fear like. We maybe trying to think about it as the v1 Fear, but it's just similar.

Call it "Hesitation". That is much more descriptive.

And just a page ago you said that Sniper shot cannot roll over.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
The move when you walk b2b to a fearsome model is so wierd to me.

Until you don't actually charge it you will not trigger the fearsome test. You can still attack, just don't have the charge bonus.

I would suggest a rewording, maybe that would help. You see, this isn't really fear just kind of a shock. The run away part is removed what makes it really fear like. We maybe trying to think about it as the v1 Fear, but it's just similar.

Call it "Hesitation". That is much more descriptive.

Your opponent also cannot make a charge reaction, and Fearsome is basiclly just an extra free charge reaction.

 WhiteRoo wrote:
And just a page ago you said that Sniper shot cannot roll over.

And like I said, Matt corrected me.. so I posted that I was wrong about it.

Good answers, Cyp.

Because a model can have Sniper and activate alone that is what I read the rule in respect to and that's actually how I read all the rules since you buy each model as a seperate entity.

So I figured that in a squad each miniature could choose any target in the enemy squad. That makes sense logically as well as I imagine them choosing a target squad then picking their own individual targets to shoot at.

With fearsome, I think that could use some clarification as well please. Without you explaining it that's not actually in the current rules. It says that the targets activation ends immediately but not what happens if they haven't activated yet. I understand why it doesn't say that but I think it's a necessary addition due to the Duke(and possibly others).

Sorry then. You really mentionned it.

I think that is an another reason why Fearsome needs a rewording. put it to the charge reactions then... maybe.

I see already it's actually two mechanic. The area one has the chance stop you when you walk into it and the charge reaction one stops you when you try to charge someone whit it.

They are wery similar but trigger in different circumstances and times. Like the area one will stop you before ranged phase while the charge reaction one only after it.

I'd suggest to rework it into two abilities over these lines and not calling it fear. That gives people ideas.

With Patient lvl4. Does the Duke gain the buffs or does he gain the talent? It's not very clear although I would guess the latter after the 1st e version.

Is this clearer?

Other Causes - Some Heroic or Tactical Actions may state that they cause Fearsome under certain conditions. This overrides the normal cause of rolling when the Fearsome model is charged. The effects of this type of Fearsome are still the same, the model cannot Activate for the remainder of this turn if it fails the test.

Bolded is the added text.

 Casey's Law wrote:
With Patient lvl4. Does the Duke gain the buffs or does he gain the talent? It's not very clear although I would guess the latter after the 1st e version.

The Duke would already have the buffs, unless you consider your hero to not be a friendly model. All Rank 4 does is make the buff be always on for him, along with the freebie charge reactions.

Slight rewording:

Additional Effect:
The Imperial Duke always has the benefits of Patient Commander even after activating and may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations.

Much clearer!

I think Patient needs a rewrite too then. 1st edition was much clearer. I know it's a slightly different rule now but the wording is easier to understand.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Much clearer!

I think Patient needs a rewrite too then. 1st edition was much clearer. I know it's a slightly different rule now but the wording is easier to understand.

Just checking, did you see my edited in rewording of Rank 4 Patient Commander?

Cy did post a rewording for patient r4, did you mean r1-3

I haven't downloaded the 1st update for 2nd yet if it's in there. You may have rectified it then, does that mean you also clarified whether he gains free charge reactions or he gains it for all friendlies?

Kudos to Roo by the way, what a guy! I'm losing steam just proof reading a couple of pages, he's going through loads of this for our future benefit! The only way I could manage that is if i printed it out and made notes on it.

 Casey's Law wrote:
I haven't downloaded the 1st update for 2nd yet if it's in there. You may have rectified it then, does that mean you also clarified whether he gains free charge reactions or he gains it for all friendlies?

No, I posted it two posts ago :p

Patient Commander, Rank 4 wrote:Additional Effect:
The Imperial Duke always has the benefits of Patient Commander even after activating and may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations.

The next update hasn't been pushed yet, its just in a quote a few posts up. If it looks good, it'll go in.

Oh god how did I miss that. Bed time for Casey methinks!

It looks good but can you clarify if he gets the free charge reactions for himself or as an additional, additional effect for friendlies?

I think I have figured out the problem around the Fearsome. The definition itself is trying to bend the new fear rules over the old one.

How about wording it somehow like this:

Fear Test(or Feared/Frightened or something like that): A Squad may called to take a Fear test any time during the game. This squad have to pass a HM test against the squad tha causes this effect. Loosing the test means this squad have to end it's activation immediatly. If this squad have not yet activated this turn it now counts as being activated. Winning the Fear Test grants the squad Immune to Fearsome until end of this turn.

Fearsome: Squads charging a squad with this ability must pass a Fear Test first.

Fearsome X"(Fearsome Presence X"): Squads ending their movement phase whitin X" of this unit must pass a Fear Test.

(Fearsome or Fearsome X" does not grants Immune to Fearsome)

Immune to Fearsome: The unit automatically pass Fear Tests.

This way boons, heroic actions, tactical actions and unit abilities can call for a Fear Test. The Fear Test clearly says what happens if the test is lost.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Oh god how did I miss that. Bed time for Casey methinks!

It looks good but can you clarify if he gets the free charge reactions for himself or as an additional, additional effect for friendlies?

It doesn't say anything about friendlies in the talent, so its just for him.

Additional Effect:
The Imperial Duke always has the benefits of Patient Commander even after activating and The Imperial Duke may make Charge Reactions as Free Activations.

Yeh that's clearer.

Lame effect though. Of course I want them to be super, crazy buffing machines though so I'm hard to please in that sense.

I think whiteroo's suggestion of separating fearsome tests from fearsome as a special ability is something we'll do.

As it doesnt work like fear from other games I'd like to avoid using that term, bu I am taking suggestions of terms to use.

Frightened or Hesitation might work I think or Delayed or Shocked.

Maybe the test should be Nerve Test, Morale Test, Heroism Test or Will Test with keeping the Fearsome as the ability.

Ooh I like all of those . Very nice, WhiteRoo!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:
Have you gotten a chance to read through the rewritten core rules RiTides? You were pretty good about pointing out issues with 1.2 back when you started out, we went and used a chunk of that thread (along with other peoples comments) for the rewriting process.

I realized I missed this, sorry about that!

First of all, thanks for taking the feedback into account! Secondly, unfortunately I'm not sure if I'll have much time to playtest these rules during this particular time... I may be hearing back about a new job in the next few days so I'm a bit tied up with that (Dakka is supposed to be my stress relief... although it doesn't always work out like that lol )

 Cyporiean wrote:

 WhiteRoo wrote:
There is a reasoning behind it too: If you are a hamster barbarian red from blood(not your own), slain countless solders(actually twenty something but you don't even care to count) wielding two axes and just in the middle of ripping some heads off, are you gonna turn and run because that mouse over there has that wierd flag?

It could be a very scary mouse. But thats why you gotta make the Fearsome Test.

What if instead of that mouse, there was a massive beetle towering over the warzone and mashing your comrades into the dirt? There is always a bigger fish.


And RiTides, you may have just listed it.. but Catyr and Gym haven't posted about it in this thread. In fact, I don't think Gym has posted anything about 2.0 :p

So thats 2 Votes

I don't have acess to the 2.0 beta rules so I've just been lurking in this thread.

Cyp, in gneneral I agree with you that "because something works this way in another game I assumed it worked that way in this game" isn't a good reason to change something. However I'll also say that if something is a common enough concern it should be addressed.

Addidtionaly for the people play testing this. Reading over the rules and providing feedback is great, but what really helps a developer/publisher make a better product is using the rules provided to play through a game. Take notes during the game, referance page and paragraph numbers, note what caused confusion, what was broken, irrelovant or over powered and submit it as an event report. Offer crtitism but have a way to backup your feelings and offer fixes.

Playtesting is alot of work, it's something that I think alot of designers overlook.

At this point alot of companies would have made you sign a NDA, OTL chose to go the open and public route.

Got some more feedback which you might like. I'll type it up later when I'm not rattling around in a bus on a country road.

 Casey's Law wrote:
Got some more feedback which you might like. I'll type it up later when I'm not rattling around in a bus on a country road.

You tease.

I'm trying to build starting armies for some v2 testing. I'm working with these restrictions for convenience:

-Each army costs 25/25/25
-Each army uses it's warband list from the shop as these where warband packs freshly outboxed. Therefore the army must use the content list as the list of units it's going to run.
-None of the armies can add extra models to their lists.

I'm running into some weird problems with this, so my question is: Is v2 supposed to work inside these conditions?

All the warbands cost 25 food no problem there, but the lumber and gold costs are showing some problems.

The warbands were only built around 25 food + a hero. Lumber and Gold were left out of the calculations. The warbands are not balanced thoroughly. Nor are they intended to be on a competative level. They are really just a starter set to help folks undrrstand mechanics and get the minimum basic miniatures (hero and some troops).

Once learned, Brushfire should be played at more flexible 100/200 resouce limits.