I've been waiting for a new Tau codex for a while now, and now that it has finally arrived, I am worried that Fire Warriors will no longer be as potent as they were before, or that the Rail Gun might be nerfed significantly. What do you guys know or think about this?

The internal balance of the army will invariably change, but that is not always a bad thing. The army appears as though it will still be good (if not outright better), but you will more than likely need to make changes to old lists to keep them working. I have found over time that your best bet of enjoying the new book is to think of it as an entirely different army and approach it with as open a mind as you can. A fresh and optimistic viewpoint is your best friend right now. Nostalgia and notions of entitlement (as I have experienced with several book transitions) will only hinder you.

Regardless; good luck!

That was a very well written post, I can't add much that wasn't said better by nightwolf. Have an exalt.

I suspect that the army will become less 'mobile' than it has been, as it seems that fire warrior squads will benefit from being stationary, so will become more of a gunline. Same with the rumoured loss of multitrackers on our vehicles.

And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

Way too much is still unknown at this time to make any real judgement. Its still all just assumptions, hyperbole, and looking through rose colored glasses.

Will your current favorite army configuration play the same? Probably not. GW is infamous for changing units either by power or cost. Your current build could easily be pointed out of existence, or a particular favorite wargear configuration may no longer even be possible.

However, if your willing to flow with change and make a few changes to your list and even adjust your play style I think you will see the army be competitive.

I have found that the best players of any particular army are those that choose an army and stick with it. I rarely change my armies around because you just cant learn how to get he most out of a unit (any unit) if you don't run them a dozen or more times. The dice can just be too fickle between games, and what worked for one player, may not work for you.

Looks like overwatch is the name of the game, if we can ever get them to come near us. BS2 and every unit nearby firing too, looks like we've got our charge deterrent put right in, without actual melee units. I'm likely going to have 3-4 FW units with Pulse Acc. Drones (If they can take them) with Fireblades for each (That is, if the rumors about them functioning like haemonculus are true) w/ Broadside fire support. Yes I know about the nerf, but with any luck this could be a points decrease, allowing for more of them easier. with deepstriking suits + commander to blow tanks up and dance around absorbing fire.

frogy27 wrote:
And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

I wouldn't be so hasty to do this, from what I heard is that only broadside rail weapons are being brought to S8 with the option to upgrade back up to the S10 version, also the Hammerheard will retain it's S10 rail weapon. This is only my interpretation of all the rules rumors I have read, but along with the possible option of Skyfire gear for Broadside suits I'm optimistic.

 CrashCanuck wrote:

frogy27 wrote:
And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

I wouldn't be so hasty to do this, from what I heard is that only broadside rail weapons are being brought to S8 with the option to upgrade back up to the S10 version, also the Hammerheard will retain it's S10 rail weapon. This is only my interpretation of all the rules rumors I have read, but along with the possible option of Skyfire gear for Broadside suits I'm optimistic.

Ignore frogy, he's been spamming threads with doom and gloom lately without adding anything constructive whatsoever.

I dunno, but the new Tau codex looks OK for me. Yes, the FWs will suck (newsflash: they always did), but everything else will be cool. Like the new Missilesides (they are like the Terran Marauders in Starcraft 2), the flyers (without those stupid beams and the cockpit, they actually look kinda' cool), the Riptide and Darkstrider (his real name is El'Myamoto... how stupidly awesome is that ?). So yeah, I'm looking forward to finally get the 'dex and try it out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CrashCanuck wrote:

frogy27 wrote:
And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

I wouldn't be so hasty to do this, from what I heard is that only broadside rail weapons are being brought to S8 with the option to upgrade back up to the S10 version, also the Hammerheard will retain it's S10 rail weapon. This is only my interpretation of all the rules rumors I have read, but along with the possible option of Skyfire gear for Broadside suits I'm optimistic.

Ignore frogy, he's been spamming threads with doom and gloom lately without adding anything constructive whatsoever.

It's ironic he posts the word 'useless' so much.

Am saying that tau are any good any more



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And all stick to ther old dex

frogy27 wrote:
Am saying that tau are any good any more



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And all stick to ther old dex

Tau are still good? Huh, that goes contrary to what you've been saying.

Glad you've found a change of heart!

I mean tau are not any good with the new rules that nerf them. now they are just glorified ig.

The book isn't even out yet.

I would have thought that just about any book of a similar level to anything that's come out in the past few years would be good news for Tau. Even if it ends up like 5e Tyranids, that's STILL an improvement over the current Tau codex.

I got a nuff info off internet to make up mind that tau are not. any good and been super nurfed. all new codexs are not any good and all seen blah

 kronk wrote:
The book isn't even out yet.

Agreed. Until then, fingers crossed for them being balanced, etc etc!

 Melissia wrote:
I would have thought that just about any book of a similar level to anything that's come out in the past few years would be good news for Tau. Even if it ends up like 5e Tyranids, that's STILL an improvement over the current Tau codex.

I wouldn't wish anyone to get a codex like 5ed 'Nids ever.

Improvement my butt wheb rail guns get nerfd to no better then ms. and fw range nerfed to 24 and lack of any hw for fw is just done right wrong

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I wouldn't wish anyone to get a codex like 5ed 'Nids ever.

Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

Why do people allways do this with a new book? lol.
X or Y has been nerfed, they army is now junk!

If you really rely on a single thing in an entire army, may i suggest draigowing?

Granted, the railgun nerf rumor isnt the best of things to happen to them, but until the book is infront of you and you can see all of the changes, there is no point in really commenting.
Tons will be added or changed, because thats just how GW work.

Just wait for the book, ease up on the pointless "doom and gloom" comments and make your own mind up once the book hits.

Looks like lots of new toys, units and abilities are available for the Tau...........

The Tau codex benefited a lot from 6eds new rules, and I think that right now they are actually pretty good. At least, a lot better than they were in 5th.
And it's hard to judge as (like Kronk said) the codex isn't out yet. But I think that Tau are going to be a pretty powerful army... once people get used to not using broadside spam.

Am not geting new dex as from what i gather the are crap now

So without taking a look at it, without reading a review of it, without even waiting for it to be RELEASED... you're deciding you will never, ever get it?

And here I thought I was a freaking cynic, jegus.

Your still a cynic melissia
Read the guys previous posts and topics here, says alot


Also, in question about 6th giving them benefits, i think it has.
Overwatch alone has given them a nice edge, more so if rumors are true about joined fire in overwatch.

 Melissia wrote:
So without taking a look at it, without reading a review of it, without even waiting for it to be RELEASED... you're deciding you will never, ever get it?

And here I thought I was a freaking cynic, jegus.

Do a user search on Frogy27's posts and save yourself a lot of time...

Well, i'm a bit worried about the quality of the new codices. The ratio to release new 'dexes has increased and was actually what we players wanted. But larger quantity may mean less quality.

text removed.
You really do need to make more of an effort with regards to spelling and the like. The patience of the moderation team is finite.

Reds8n

Last time we wanted something better quality and quicker, we got finecast!
I see no problem with the way its going

Wait, it's not out yet?
I haven't tried to buy it from GW's website but it looks like it is already out..
either way, those new tau models are sexy.
I want to get a broadside just cause it's so groovy lookin'.
Also, they have awesome HQ models now, like a FireWarrior looking guy and a pathfinder!
How cool is that!?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Last time we wanted something better quality and quicker, we got finecast!
I see no problem with the way its going

lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440287a&prodId=prod1990142a

Darkstrider, dude.

I can't wait til summer so I can work full time.

All comes out on the 6th yukondal.
So still 4 days away.
However, pre-orders before a certain date will get to stores on the day of release, and to home the day before (this friday)
So all seems good.

oh ok. cool, thanks Jackal

frogy is just upset that Tau are getting an update and wants us to use the old codex so he wont lose all the time......

I dont think its a downgrade in quality...just GW getting their butts in gear. The codexes that are coming out now(tau,eldar, maybe orks{hopefully BT....poor bastards} and some fantasy stuff) have probably been in the works for quite some time and are now finally getting released in piecemeal for maximum profit and final tweaks lol

Well, as said this edition is more shooty than the former ones. This could be beneficial for Tau unless the designers have screwed them. But this seems unlikely.

frogy27 wrote:
And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

railguns on broadsides have been nerfed. Hammerheads still have your str10 fun, and it got better as it can kill muttiple things

 Melissia wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I wouldn't wish anyone to get a codex like 5ed 'Nids ever.

Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

No GW invalidated a lot of units that everyone used to use in order to make profit for shiny new trygons. Carnifexes would be a prime example. In fact, there are plenty underpowered units in the codex, which is why you only see a few builds for 'Nids at tournaments.

 Melissia wrote:
Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

Sounds like someone who hasnt even looked at the codex. You have 9 units to build a competitive list from: Tyrant, Terv, gaunt, Zoan, HG, Ymargl, Biovore, Doom, Trygon. After that you are venturing into the poor-horrible realm. Nids is still the worst internally balanced codex in current use and is only limping along because tervigons exist. When one unit is the only thing keeping a codex from being entirely invalid, the book is crap. I would agree, i wouldnt wish a 5th nid codex on anyone.


Tau will see an overall improvement in play. Pretty significantly, they will also be one of the most popular ally choices due to the number of armies they ally with. They also have access to Eldar for psychic powers and defense, something that they lack, and will see a lot of the other gaps in the old codex filled in. They will have more mid-strength shooting, more ways to deal with assault, and generally a stronger codex. How internally balanced the codex is remains to be seen, but at this point the old codex is nearly invalid for competitive settings. They can really only go up.

I guess there are only a few issues that seem to bother me so far. I'm still optimistic, since it looks like we will be able to field troops that can do something instead of relying on heavily loaded Elite and Heavy choices.

I'm disappointed that the Devilfish will probably still be expensive and terrible. With a unit that has unit wide strong weapons they need an open topped transport like the Necron's ghost ark.

Suits are still BS3. Just going to save myself a lot of typing. With multi-trackers built in, it could mean that it will be easier to get the upgrade for BS4 and still bring two weapons.

I don't see why people are so positive about the Hammerhead being the only S10 weapon in the army. It's only getting the single shot, not line of death most people hoped for. It gives even less reason to bring the Ionhead.

I'm still hopeful though.

I have think the changes will be welcome ones and needed ones. All the books that have out this year so far have been really quite good.

The additon of the Riptide is interesting and I am sure it will be a real flyer killer. And well, anything killer. Also from what I understand, there are a great deal more HQ options which is really needed. One thing I found that Tau lacked was solid HQ also making a Fire Warriors based army more viable will be nice to see as well as making specific lore based tactics more relavant.

Ignoring the other crap (lol, "haven't looked at the codex", sure thing kiddo)...

 zephoid wrote:
You have 9 units to build a competitive list from

As a Sisters of Battle player, that's quite a fething lot to me.

I have nine non-SC, non-transport units, period for a pure Sisters army.

But then again, I disagree that you only ever have nine competitive units to build from to begin with. That's a discussion for another thread though, and a discussion that's been had to death already anyway.

Does anybody know if the Riptide takes normal support systems like XV8s? It'd probably be pretty worth it to slap a Targeting Array on that baby, otherwise the statline looks pretty good to be honest. Yay for taking spanish classes. I know I'm using the Riptide, got the launch bundle. What do you guys think about the weapons systems? Like whether the mega burst cannon thingy will be better than the ion cannons, or vice versa.

It looks like we aren't getting Targeting arrays. So basically the entire army may be gimped so that it can rely on a very fragile Pathfinder team.

 zephoid wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

Sounds like someone who hasnt even looked at the codex. You have 9 units to build a competitive list from: Tyrant, Terv, gaunt, Zoan, HG, Ymargl, Biovore, Doom, Trygon. After that you are venturing into the poor-horrible realm. Nids is still the worst internally balanced codex in current use and is only limping along because tervigons exist. When one unit is the only thing keeping a codex from being entirely invalid, the book is crap. I would agree, i wouldnt wish a 5th nid codex on anyone.


Tau will see an overall improvement in play. Pretty significantly, they will also be one of the most popular ally choices due to the number of armies they ally with. They also have access to Eldar for psychic powers and defense, something that they lack, and will see a lot of the other gaps in the old codex filled in. They will have more mid-strength shooting, more ways to deal with assault, and generally a stronger codex. How internally balanced the codex is remains to be seen, but at this point the old codex is nearly invalid for competitive settings. They can really only go up.

and DE have, what 7 viable choices?

most non IoM codexes quickly become invalidated when a new edition comes out

 Exergy wrote:

frogy27 wrote:
And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

railguns on broadsides have been nerfed. Hammerheads still have your str10 fun, and it got better as it can kill muttiple things

Yeah they're only S8, but at least they're twin-linked and AP1 - short of a Land Raider, you should be blowing the hell out of any vehicle out there still... just not with the laughable ease that they could before. And to be honest, Land Raiders have had it rough for too long now.

Also, froggy... no one agrees with you. I'm sorely tempted to click that little "ignore" button.

The S8 is a little disapointing but still damn good, and twin linked like it was said. They can take on whatever whilst the Hammerheads take on big stuff. Thats probably a better spread though, I mean S10 is of course the best, but I always had trouble deciding what to shoot at with the Hammerhead or what to save for the Broadsides. I mean, shoot ar armour, thats pretty straight forward. But I still like the S8 and S10 spread.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
The S8 is a little disapointing but still damn good, and twin linked like it was said. They can take on whatever whilst the Hammerheads take on big stuff. Thats probably a better spread though, I mean S10 is of course the best, but I always had trouble deciding what to shoot at with the Hammerhead or what to save for the Broadsides. I mean, shoot ar armour, thats pretty straight forward. But I still like the S8 and S10 spread.

+1 to this. Just because the "rail rifles" were nerfed to S8 doesn't mean that they are worthless (though one could give it lance, because heck, rail guns eat armor for breakfast) They still mash anything AV13 and under, with the skyfire option tau now have really good AA. Watch out vendettas, you now are threatened!

S8 Vs A13 means you only pen on a 6 and it is useless against A14 because for that price and a Heavy Support slot it shouldn't be forced to "glance it to death" unless it gets a crazy amount of shots. Look at the Forgefiend for example, which will 8 shots total for about 4 hits compared to BS3 Broadsides with twinlinked railguns for at most 3 hits. The Forgefiend would be the more reliable choice to me since it also gets to reroll to pen rolls and is comparable in price. It's also in an army with a versatile Obliterator and Triple Twin-Linked Lascannon Predator.

Also the increase in AA effectiveness is marginal thanks to the reduction in S, going from ~20% to ~25% chance to penetrate an A12 flyer. I don't understand why they couldn't make the MissileSide have Skyfire and leave the regular Broadside alone.

However suits can now take 18" Melta guns, so armor might not be an issue anyways.

So, im a little disappointed in the broadrail nerf. Should either have glance or be S9 at least i think. Should be able to compete with a damn guardsmen on taking out Armor of any kind. I was also hoping for Stealths as troops! even if they stayed the same price. Oh well!

Im still looking forward to the release because Tau have needed it for quite some time now

Our conquest is inevitable......

"Boohoo, every single unit doesn't have S10!" Really guys? S10 should be rare, not spammable. Vehicles are screwed enough as it is.

 tvih wrote:
"Boohoo, every single unit doesn't have S10!" Really guys? S10 should be rare, not spammable. Vehicles are screwed enough as it is.

Heh... The Imperial Guard can bring 9 R48" S10 AP1, Blast(!), Armourbane(!!) guns to the table for mere 1395 points .

It's too early to say at this point.
Regardless of what others bring to the table, what this edition will do is bring change.
Remember the whining when Necrons were rumoured to be losing WBB and dropping to a 4+ save?
It was the end of the world (apparently)
Necrons are now a top tier codex.

Broadsides went from tank killing to air defence, Something that is in short supply in the current meta.
With the changes to overwatch, and the advantages that the Tau seem to be getting, they are a scary prospect for any assault based army.

From the rumours I'm hearing, Tau are going to be a scary prospect for any army to face.
Necron air force are in serious trouble now. Vendetta Spam is in trouble too.
Who knows what else the codex will bring.
There is one certainty though, on Saturday, we'll find out, and it won't be the end of the world.

 marv335 wrote:

Necron air force are in serious trouble now. Vendetta Spam is in trouble too.

Pfffff... These two are in a "serious trouble" since the CSM codex. As I can see, the only Flyer what has something to fear from the new AA Broadsides is the Heldrake, as it has no weapons to instagib the 'sides. And FMCs will have a bad time too for the same reason.

My interpretation of the White Dwarf battle report is that there are going to be lots of chances to upgrade units to have skyfire. This is just how I read it though.

 tvih wrote:
"Boohoo, every single unit doesn't have S10!" Really guys? S10 should be rare, not spammable. Vehicles are screwed enough as it is.

I would agree to that if our Heavy Support slot wasn't limited to being the only decent slot for taking out armor at range. When other armies can field triple t/l lascannon predators at a cheaper price than our single shot Hammerhead, the various Leman Russ and Land Raider variants, drop pod melta units on the cheap side, or just bringing heavy weapons in troop slots. Also the "re-purposing" to an AA unit was already discussed as being almost negligible due to the drop in S.

Or just be a dismissive jerk and think that all people are saying about the issue is crying. The day that infantry with lascannons are S7 Ap2, since S9 should be rare, I would understand the decision. Quite frankly I'm not too worried about it now that I know that Fusion blasters are up to 18" range and will probably spam melta suits in the off chance I see Land Raiders, since a single S10 shot is almost completely worthless against it.

Yeah I agree, with both. S10 should be more rare. But also that the Hammerhead is really the only big time armour killer. Not to say there arent others. But the only S10. Maybe the Broadside will still have an option for S10? It was a pretty damn good deal last time around, and I cant say id mind too much paying some extra points for it.

Im also certain that other tactics and such will be made mkre viable, which means that im sure within a weeks time kf tge books release, there will be an ultimate tank bane list where you can get to the rear armour with ease.

I'm thinking a bit more about the strike fighter, and i think it's going to be really good against ground targets. That turret is going to make it really easy to hit rear armor on stuff.

There's a lot of changes and not all of them good but it's early to tell yet. A lot of the changes are found here:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/04/tau-in-translation.html

The thing that I like about the new models is that they DEFINITELY fill a valuable role and seem to be good at their jobs.

Fire Warriors seem to have done nothing but benefit, Broadsides became a lot less necessary, but they are still worth taking. I dunno. As in all new codex's, you'll see a lot different builds than before. Not sure that's totally a bad thing.

Well, it looks like there will be much change in this edition for the Tau, judging by this wave of responses. I'm actually not discouraged by this at all. Hearing as to how much more useful infantry are in 6th edition, I'm really glad about my immense gunline of FWs. Thanks for all of this info, guys!

frogy27 wrote:
And rail guns being nerfd to s8 makeing them no better then ms and useless fron what i have read they have been overall nerfed so my tau will still stay on the shelf

Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Not sure how an army that is already pretty low key can be "overall nerfed" in the first place. It isn't getting a massive power buff because GW finally seem to be trying to bring some sense of balance and power control back to the game. That is a GOOD thing. I am hopeful that the new book will be comparable and capable when compared to the other new codecies. The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point. Meanwhile the rail weapon on the tanks will still be S10 and just as nasty to use.

I know it is too much to ask of some people, but how about waiting and seeing what is specifically in the new codex before calling your army totally useless might be in order, eh? Even better, waiting until you've played some games with the new codex to see how it really works before completely panning it...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:
Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Except Broadsides provide something absolutely vital for a Tau army: reliable anti-tank that doesn't have to get up close before you can use it. And now that's entirely gone, leaving a bunch of mid-strength spam with melta as your only reliable anti-vehicle option. So you're killing fewer tanks, you have to wait until turn 2 to start killing them, and you probably lose your anti-tank unit after one shot. This is a HUGE nerf.

The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point.

Except Broadsides were already decent at killing flyers since STR 10 AP 1 means you reliably hurt a flyer once you hit it (and you have a ~33% chance of hitting it). Now you're more likely to hit, but much less likely to do any damage, so the net gain against flyers is fairly small. In exchange Broadsides have been crippled against everything that isn't a flyer. This is not a fair trade.

Ok guys calm down, the ion cannon goes from S7 AP4 heavy 3 to Str9 AP2 Large blast after being nova boosted, burst cannon becoming 12 shots, I think Tau will be very interesting. The Riptide will be awesome at its T6 5W

Some Spanish guy leaked photos, scroll far down

http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11167664-rumores-tau/

Barrywise wrote:
Ok guys calm down, the ion cannon goes from S7 AP4 heavy 3 to Str9 AP2 Large blast after being nova boosted, burst cannon becoming 12 shots, I think Tau will be very interesting. The Riptide will be awesome at its T6 5W

Some Spanish guy leaked photos, scroll far down

http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11167664-rumores-tau/

So it has Toughness 6 and 5 wounds.

It is a very big target, and does not have eternal warrior?. If it does not well it sounds like a nice expensive paper weight to me

tau are going to be the go to gun line, and have better AA then guard

the riptide is awesome... 5 wounds on a t6 model is great, esp with its firepower, only force weapons will scare it.

s8 broadsides is not a nerf when they can now take sky fire,
thats a buff.

I know a lot of people around here are restarting their tau or getting interested in starting them now.

anything that puts more fighting robots on the table is ok by me!

 Peregrine wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Except Broadsides provide something absolutely vital for a Tau army: reliable anti-tank that doesn't have to get up close before you can use it. And now that's entirely gone, leaving a bunch of mid-strength spam with melta as your only reliable anti-vehicle option. So you're killing fewer tanks, you have to wait until turn 2 to start killing them, and you probably lose your anti-tank unit after one shot. This is a HUGE nerf.

The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point.

Except Broadsides were already decent at killing flyers since STR 10 AP 1 means you reliably hurt a flyer once you hit it (and you have a ~33% chance of hitting it). Now you're more likely to hit, but much less likely to do any damage, so the net gain against flyers is fairly small. In exchange Broadsides have been crippled against everything that isn't a flyer. This is not a fair trade.

What meta have you played in? IIRC, vehicles that arent flyers were nerfed hard this edition with hull points, and you're saying that anti-tank (or lack thereof) will make your list useless???!!?!? In this meta the new broadsides are better than you give them credit, but lets wait for the codex to come out before broadside spam users should start crying. /

The role of the broadsides have changed from armour killer to flyer killer. They can now easily blow apart even the scariest flyers, and will straight up laugh at dakkajets, and they can still easily take out light-medium ground armour, and MCs. Not to mention your other suits jumping in and hitting anything that's super tough with a long range melta gun or something. It seems to me that broadsides will still have their uses, and it sounds like the people concerned about the railgun nerf are likely the same people that like to complain about how powerful flyers are. I wouldn't be too concerened. In my meta at least, people aren't taking all that much armour any more anyways.

Option A.) 6 stealthsuits with 5 drone controllers(shas'vre already gets one) and 2 missile drones each... 334 points for a unit that can dump out 24 str 5 shots at 18 inches along with 24 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36"(bs2)....... Should i bother getting it or no?

Option B.) 3 man deathrain squad with 6 missile drones for 18(12 at bs2) Str 7 ap 4 shots at 26" for 222 points

option A.) gets a 4+ coversave standing out in the middle of nowhere

option B.) TL MP good ness.

a full missile side team with missile drones each is pumping out 24 str 7 ap 4 shots at 36" and 12 str5 ap 5 shots at 30 (half at BS 2), for 267 for 60 points more (327) those shots are all skyfire where as the options A and B cannot.

Fightiong Robots, flying waspMen, feral Kroot hunters, Ethereal mesmerizers, Robotech HoverTanks, Robotech battloids they call stealthsuits, Lockon Stratus looking(ish) gunBots, Imperial StormTroopers for troops, and World War II planes flying around?

Character, baby. Character.

What do you think about the new Kroot rules?

Kroot
6 pts each WITH 6+ armour. STR3, WS4. Hounds are 5 points. Krootox is 25pts. Precision ammo can make their guns sniper rifles. Wowa. 20 Sniper Rifles? Now that's something. They get acute senses from their hounds (tracking dawgs).

 ace101 wrote:
What meta have you played in?

The one where vehicles still exist in 6th. Transports may have been nerfed, but that just means that the vehicles you DO see are going to be the more durable ones where all those fancy new STR 7 weapons are marginal at best.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
The role of the broadsides have changed from armour killer to flyer killer.

Except, again, Broadsides were already good at killing flyers. The increase to-hit chance is offset by the significantly reduced chance of doing anything when you hit, so the net result in average damage to a flyer is fairly small.

and they can still easily take out light-medium ground armour

Not really. Against a Rhino you go from a 62.5% chance to pen with each shot to a 37.5% chance to pen, which is pretty much cutting your effectiveness in half. And that's not even counting the fact that you can't get BS 4 Broadsides anymore.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
Oh noes! One version of a weapon on a single unit in my army is only S8 so it is now totally useless making my army worthless.

Except Broadsides provide something absolutely vital for a Tau army: reliable anti-tank that doesn't have to get up close before you can use it. And now that's entirely gone, leaving a bunch of mid-strength spam with melta as your only reliable anti-vehicle option. So you're killing fewer tanks, you have to wait until turn 2 to start killing them, and you probably lose your anti-tank unit after one shot. This is a HUGE nerf.

The rail weapons on the combat suits are slightly less powerful, but get skyfire ability too so will be darn good at dropping just about any flyer in the game at this point.

Except Broadsides were already decent at killing flyers since STR 10 AP 1 means you reliably hurt a flyer once you hit it (and you have a ~33% chance of hitting it). Now you're more likely to hit, but much less likely to do any damage, so the net gain against flyers is fairly small. In exchange Broadsides have been crippled against everything that isn't a flyer. This is not a fair trade.

I have to say, after running the math, Peregrine seems to be right. One Railgun Broadside (assuming BS3 and twin-linked) costs about as much as two devestators with lascannons and the Lascannons put out almost twice the number of penetrating hits against every type of armour that isn't a flier. This can, of course, change with markerlight support, but that in turn allows for more Lascannons to be added to the equation.

The gain against AV12 fliers is 25% though, so hardly small, but the question is if the Tau have enough thingies to effectively combat heavy armour at range. Speaking of which, we haven't seen stats or rules for the Skyray yet, have we?

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I would agree to that if our Heavy Support slot wasn't limited to being the only decent slot for taking out armor at range. When other armies can field triple t/l lascannon predators at a cheaper price than our single shot Hammerhead, the various Leman Russ and Land Raider variants, drop pod melta units on the cheap side, or just bringing heavy weapons in troop slots. Also the "re-purposing" to an AA unit was already discussed as being almost negligible due to the drop in S.

Or just be a dismissive jerk and think that all people are saying about the issue is crying. The day that infantry with lascannons are S7 Ap2, since S9 should be rare, I would understand the decision. Quite frankly I'm not too worried about it now that I know that Fusion blasters are up to 18" range and will probably spam melta suits in the off chance I see Land Raiders, since a single S10 shot is almost completely worthless against it.

Call me a jerk if you want, but S8 is hardly useless. It can still kill Land Raiders (which almost no one uses) by glancing (yes, takes a whole lot of shots, I know), and everything AV13 and less. And last I heard for Broadsides it's AP1 so whatever it penetrates it also has a 50% chance of destroying outright. Plus there seems to be a fair amount of S7 shots available to use against transports and the like. It's hardly the end of the world for Tau. For example my Orks certainly have far more issues with AV14 and even AV13 (and 2+/3+ armor saves, for that matter) than the Tau will based on what info I've seen so far.

''According to a conversation we had with Games Workshop's Trade Department, virtually the entire range of Tau is now out of stock.''

Seems popular enough!

 zephoid wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

Sounds like someone who hasnt even looked at the codex. You have 9 units to build a competitive list from: Tyrant, Terv, gaunt, Zoan, HG, Ymargl, Biovore, Doom, Trygon. After that you are venturing into the poor-horrible realm. Nids is still the worst internally balanced codex in current use and is only limping along because tervigons exist. When one unit is the only thing keeping a codex from being entirely invalid, the book is crap. I would agree, i wouldnt wish a 5th nid codex on anyone.


Tau will see an overall improvement in play. Pretty significantly, they will also be one of the most popular ally choices due to the number of armies they ally with. They also have access to Eldar for psychic powers and defense, something that they lack, and will see a lot of the other gaps in the old codex filled in. They will have more mid-strength shooting, more ways to deal with assault, and generally a stronger codex. How internally balanced the codex is remains to be seen, but at this point the old codex is nearly invalid for competitive settings. They can really only go up.

See, I've never understood that; why is a codex only "balanced" if it's written for competitive play? Why can it not be balanced around the majority of people who use it; normal, average, non-tournament gamers who build lists using a combination of competitiveness, PLUS theme and model appeal?

Honestly, I'm beginning to see more and more similarities between tournament tabletop gamers, and the "hardcore raider" crowd in MMOs; a small minority of the playerbase who expect a disproportionate level of consideration when new content is being made, and who resort to hyperbolic doom&gloom whenever they don't get it.

 tvih wrote:
It can still kill Land Raiders (which almost no one uses) by glancing (yes, takes a whole lot of shots, I know), and everything AV13 and less.

"Can kill" is not the same thing as "effectively kill". Broadsides went from being effective against all vehicles (and incredibly effective against medium/light vehicles) to being mediocre at best against even basic Rhinos*. So in exchange for a small improvement against flyers (in an army that already has more AA than any other codex) Broadsides are absolutely crippled against anything that isn't a flyer.

*A lascannon hit has a 22% chance of killing a Rhino. A hit from a new Broadside has a 25% chance of killing a Rhino. An old Broadside has a 41% chance of killing a Rhino. See the problem yet?

Plus there seems to be a fair amount of S7 shots available to use against transports and the like.

STR 7 is garbage against vehicles, especially when it's AP 3 and worse like most of the Tau weapons.

It's hardly the end of the world for Tau. For example my Orks certainly have far more issues with AV14 and even AV13 (and 2+/3+ armor saves, for that matter) than the Tau will based on what info I've seen so far.

The point is that Broadsides were a defining unit for the Tau, and vital to the Tau strategy. Now they're gone and there's nothing to replace them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
See, I've never understood that; why is a codex only "balanced" if it's written for competitive play? Why can it not be balanced around the majority of people who use it; normal, average, non-tournament gamers who build lists using a combination of competitiveness, PLUS theme and model appeal?

Because that's taking the lazy way out. Being balanced for competitive play is a higher standard than being balanced for "average" play. A codex that is balanced for competitive play will be balanced for "average" play, while a codex that is only balanced for "average" play probably won't be balanced for competitive play. Judging codex balance by "average" play is just holding GW to a lower standard and admitting that they are too incompetent to figure out how to make a decent product.

 Yodhrin wrote:

See, I've never understood that; why is a codex only "balanced" if it's written for competitive play? Why can it not be balanced around the majority of people who use it; normal, average, non-tournament gamers who build lists using a combination of competitiveness, PLUS theme and model appeal?

The answer is easy: because if you create an army with optimized gameplay in mind, then you should end up with strong and useful units in said army. Every other option would produce a sub-optimal army list. Example: Codex: Grey Knights (Dark Angels are also close).

If you go for the theme and feel, then you will get useless and garbage units because your hands are tied by the "theme" and the "feel". So some units will have stupid wargear/special rules because otherwise, they would stick out. Example: Codex: Nurgle and Baledrakes.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Barrywise wrote:
Ok guys calm down, the ion cannon goes from S7 AP4 heavy 3 to Str9 AP2 Large blast after being nova boosted, burst cannon becoming 12 shots, I think Tau will be very interesting. The Riptide will be awesome at its T6 5W

Some Spanish guy leaked photos, scroll far down

http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11167664-rumores-tau/

So it has Toughness 6 and 5 wounds.

It is a very big target, and does not have eternal warrior?. If it does not well it sounds like a nice expensive paper weight to me

Are you kidding? As a Nid player, the lack of EW is no big deal at all, unless you're playing tons of Grey Knights or something.

From the changes I have read tau will be a deadly foe. Having multiple units overwatch at once, broadsides as anit-aircraft hammerheads and fire warriors getting a price reduction.

I got my stats mixed up, the riptide will be deadly once I can get the money together.

All and all I am vary excited for the new book.

 Melissia wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I wouldn't wish anyone to get a codex like 5ed 'Nids ever.

Fifth edition Tyranids was a good, relatively balanced codex that caused a lot of people to whine because they were expecting something that was ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced.

Have an exalt, madam. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Anyway, from what I've seen Tau are a really potent army now. They're different, but potent. They don't look to be of Blood Angels/Grey Knights/Necron levels of OP (for example, if someone gets into combat with them, they're dead) but they're definitely competitive.

Of course, it is early to say seeing as the Codex isn't out yet.

As for "worth playing" as a casual player who enjoys the "beer and pretzels" side, if you like an army and like their fluff, models, aesthetic etc, then they're worth playing.

To all haters of the new codex: give me a break! You haven't actually read it yet. Just because the broadside rail gun is now strength 8 does not mean it is nerffed. How many strength 8 weapons out there are AP 1? Not many guys. Don't forget what AP 1 does on the vehicle damage table. So easy to turn a penetrating hit into an inferno! All in all I feel like the army has been rounded out very well. Now I don't have to rely on a select few models to be competitive. I'm looking forward to trying out the new Vespid stats with their increase ballistic range and pulse carbines Assault 2? Awesome! Fish of fury here I come!

If anything I feel like Tau have only become more mobile. Advance two units of FW for some supporting fire and now they come standard with photon grenades? Who wants to assault that? That's just one example. It seems to me that GW has not only made this army terrible in assault but given it the opportunity to stay out of assault.

As has been posted previously let's be flexible. The new models are gorgeous (so glad they fixed that old broadside!) and the new codex opens new tactical options that did not exist before. Happy gaming!

I think it might be worth noting that the new hammerhead with long strike has a 46%? chance to pen av 14, which isn't that bad but not the 75% chance for a squad of 3 4th ed broadsides but is something like 180ish points.

Its also fair to note that we now have some decent ways to hit rear armor with fliers, outflanking and deep striking.

(I definitely like the idea of outflanking broadsides /skyrays / riptide into the enemy black field for good times.)

lol... people crying about broadsides... really?

you still have access to the str 10 ap1 rail cannon...

a unit going from UBER anti av 14,

to UBER anti flyer, AND very good against av 13 isnt a big deal, nor is it a nerf, it is in fact a strong buff.

if your entire strategy relys on str 10 ap1, because everyone is taking land raiders where you live, well you can still access railcannons...

this edition, uber AA is better then uber anti tank, by far.

I thought everyone had expected that the popular current units its would loose something and the new ones get loads of stuff.

Its how GW works

From what I have read in White Dwarf alone there are lots on new abilities like the combined overwatch rules, repulsor impact fields, missile drones, new veteran fire warriors that seem to have BS 5.........and give an extra shot to accompanying fire warriors.

easysauce wrote:
lol... people crying about broadsides... really?

you still have access to the str 10 ap1 rail cannon...

a unit going from UBER anti av 14,

to UBER anti flyer, AND very good against av 13 isnt a big deal, nor is it a nerf, it is in fact a strong buff.

Actually, it went from superior AT to superior point-defense. It isn't really the best unit in the codex to do the AA (you will have the Sky Ray or Sunforge suits for that), but with missiles and the "BS2 overwatch" system, it will be a deadly background support unit.

The main reason they droped the broadside down to str 8 was to remove both the long range Landraider delete unit and the lets spam the crap out of this unit in every meta.

Pretty much every codex that needed to remove a AV 14 vehicle had to use a melta spam unit that was very short ranged, well guess what? Tau have to do that now aswell but our Melta(fusion) spam is now at 18" rather then 12". If we want long range Anti tank fire we use Longstrike in a Hammerhead which has a 27.77% chance to destroy a AV 14 target in 1 hit.

and about the Sunforge being a good AA your pay 62 PPM for that 1 shot and if you have to measure from the model to the flyer model you have to be within what 3" of the base to get that extra d6 pen?

No they droppd the Broadside down to make you buy Hammerheads.

 Jancoran wrote:
No they droppd the Broadside down to make you buy Hammerheads.

so 1 hammerhead for $60 or 3 new broadsides for $150..... Yeah they did that to make you buy hammerheads.....................

 Ninjacommando wrote:

and about the Sunforge being a good AA your pay 62 PPM for that 1 shot and if you have to measure from the model to the flyer model you have to be within what 3" of the base to get that extra d6 pen?

You don't need the 2D6 to be effective. The biggest problem of the Broadside is its vulnerability and complete lack of mobility. The Sunforge can Deep Strike to deal with both problems. And 62 points are still cheaper than 85 .

 tvih wrote:
Call me a jerk if you want, but S8 is hardly useless.

I concur. Sisters have nothing better than S8, and we still manage to kill armor well enough.

Tau are definitely much stronger than Sisters in the current meta, but meh, that's the life of a ten year old codex replaced by a half-assed and lazy white dwarf "codex".

Seeing as to how much more effective flyers are than armor in the new edition, a powerful AA unit is definitely welcome to me, and I guess that I have no problem with the S8 reduction. It's not like they're making it S6 or anything. Plus, seeing as to how 6th ed is so much more of an infantryman's game, I'm really going to be using my FWs more.

 AtoMaki wrote:


You don't need the 2D6 to be effective. The biggest problem of the Broadside is its vulnerability and complete lack of mobility. The Sunforge can Deep Strike to deal with both problems. And 62 points are still cheaper than 85 .

for 10 points more you can get a Fireforge suit for anit air, while it has a 4.2% less chance to destory a flyer outright it does average out 1.75 hullpoints removed a turn compaired to the sunforges 1.125 hullpoints removed a turn.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No they droppd the Broadside down to make you buy Hammerheads.

so 1 hammerhead for $60 or 3 new broadsides for $150..... Yeah they did that to make you buy hammerheads.....................

\\

Yup.

Most competitive Tau players know btter than to invest in a Hammerhead and Broadsides were the order of the day. Now you hve good reasons to take a Hammerhead. I probably still wont for FOC slot blockage considerations, but that's what happened before. Anyone will tell you that the Broadsides were the way to go until 6E. Obviously the FAQ made Hammerheads more interesting and now the Codex has. But it made no sense to reduce Broadsides to STR 8 after being STR 10 for time immemorial unless it was to spread the love amongst units... And the love only needed to be spread to make money. and its going to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 tvih wrote:
Call me a jerk if you want, but S8 is hardly useless.

I concur. Sisters have nothing better than S8, and we still manage to kill armor well enough.

Tau are definitely much stronger than Sisters in the current meta, but meh, that's the life of a ten year old codex replaced by a half-assed and lazy white dwarf "codex".

Tau are stronger in the nw Meta than Sistrs? Well... I guess I'm not sold on that, given their allied choices. I am a Tau player for sure and also a Sisters of Battle player and while this new codex seems a big improvement in many ways, I have a hard time seeing my Dominion quail in fear.

I'm so excited for this Tau codex though. Better or worse, it's new and that's fun.

If you count allies there's not that much of a difference in my opinion (since you can ally just about anyone with anyone else anyway), so I was using core units.

 Jancoran wrote:


Yup.

Most competitive Tau players know btter than to invest in a Hammerhead and Broadsides were the order of the day. Now you hve good reasons to take a Hammerhead. I probably still wont for FOC slot blockage considerations, but that's what happened before. Anyone will tell you that the Broadsides were the way to go until 6E. Obviously the FAQ made Hammerheads more interesting and now the Codex has. But it made no sense to reduce Broadsides to STR 8 after being STR 10 for time immemorial unless it was to spread the love amongst units... And the love only needed to be spread to make money. and its going to work.

Agian if they wanted to make more money they would of made Missilesides morepowerful so people would pay $150 for 3 of them for 1 Foc choice compaired to the Hammerhead no one will buy because chances are you have one sitting somewhere. The Str was reduced to make Tau players take a Melta spam squad that you must risk to take out av14 and not keep the Long range DELETE Armour squad. + how many Freaking landraiders/leman russes do you see in the current meta? Does everyone now have AV14 spam that we are not currently aware of? How many parking lot armies do you see?

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Yup.

Most competitive Tau players know btter than to invest in a Hammerhead and Broadsides were the order of the day. Now you hve good reasons to take a Hammerhead. I probably still wont for FOC slot blockage considerations, but that's what happened before. Anyone will tell you that the Broadsides were the way to go until 6E. Obviously the FAQ made Hammerheads more interesting and now the Codex has. But it made no sense to reduce Broadsides to STR 8 after being STR 10 for time immemorial unless it was to spread the love amongst units... And the love only needed to be spread to make money. and its going to work.

Agian if they wanted to make more money they would of made Missilesides morepowerful so people would pay $150 for 3 of them for 1 Foc choice compaired to the Hammerhead no one will buy because chances are you have one sitting somewhere. The Str was reduced to make Tau players take a Melta spam squad that you must risk to take out av14 and not keep the Long range DELETE Armour squad. + how many Freaking landraiders/leman russes do you see in the current meta? Does everyone now have AV14 spam that we are not currently aware of? How many parking lot armies do you see?

If you're asking how many *I* see that have a Land Raider in them, I'd say pretty frequently. As for a pair of Leman Russ's, also frequently. I never saw huge squadrons of them anyways but a couple times and those were in "what the hell, why not" games, not tourneys, regardless of Edition.

Not sure why that matters. The reality is, STR 10 has always been a halmark of Tau. Now its not. I personally find that unfortunate .

I also have seen some of the scans of the new Tau codex and what I have seen looks good.

The Sniper drones have been changed to BS5 sniper rifles which is better, the Riptide is a T6, 5 wound monstrous creature that can have FNP, Skyfire, Interceptor and a host of other options, the Kroot can upgrade to snipers now, charging the Tau will be risky with BS2 overwatch and all units within 6" firing and I am sure I have barely scratched the surface of what the new codex can do.

Sure the Broadsides have been dropped to S8 Railguns, but like another poster said there is apparently the option to bump them back up to S10 plus from what I am seeing on message boards and the like, the Velocity Tracker option to give Broadsides Skyfire is going to be popular in 6th edition, and let's face it, S10 AP1 Skyfire would be as broken as heck.

I am all for changes in updated codexes for new editions, as long as they are balanced (for the player and their opponents) and they do not change too much of the character of the race (which thus far they have not).

I am not a Tau player, but I do like them a lot and think they will be a force to be reckoned with from what I have seen.

I am encouraged for the Eldar codex when that comes round (Yes, I am an Eldar player).

rohansoldier wrote:
The Sniper drones have been changed to BS5 sniper rifles which is better,

Much worse actually. You go from hitting on a 4+ and wounding on a 2+ (against most targets) to hitting on a 2+ and wounding on a 4+. Same result, except now you can't use markerlights to improve your to-hit roll, and you only ignore armor saves 1/3 of the time instead of almost always. And just to add insult to injury sniper drones now only have stealth, not stealth + shrouded.

the Riptide is a T6, 5 wound monstrous creature that can have FNP, Skyfire, Interceptor and a host of other options

It also costs 250+ points once you include all those fancy toys. It's already looking like a weak unit that will never appear in competitive lists since crisis suits can bring much better firepower for the same points.

the Kroot can upgrade to snipers now

In exchange they've been crippled in assault (the only thing they did well previously), and the sniper shot is arguably worse than the normal rifles. Compare them to IG ratlings, which are even better snipers for the same points but still unplayable garbage.

charging the Tau will be risky with BS2 overwatch and all units within 6" firing

Not really. BS 2 overwatch still isn't all that impressive, and you can still only overwatch once per turn.

Sure the Broadsides have been dropped to S8 Railguns, but like another poster said there is apparently the option to bump them back up to S10

There isn't. Only the Hammerhead railgun gets STR 10.

I am not a Tau player, but I do like them a lot and think they will be a force to be reckoned with from what I have seen.

And this is why you don't realize how bad these changes are. Instead of a proper upgrade to 6th edition we get Codex:Markerlights.

The riptide can only have two support systems and you don't have to give it those two shielded missile drones. You can easily get a cheap riptide for 185 points with an ion accelerator with range 72" and keep it need the back of the board.

I don't mean to be rude in any way, it just appears to me Peregrine that you're just overreacting and letting off steam at all the stuff that's been changed. I understand full well why though. Killing armour 14 now will be a lot more of a challenge, a lack of more ways to get more ranged S9 and S10, kroot although nice as snipers have been gimped in combat, the removal of targeting array for extra BS and the one that REALLY gets to me - crisis suits are BS3... Seriously? Our eiltes, our vets, who have years of battle experience and go in hi-tech suits shoot no better than freshly spawned gaunts? We are a shooting army, we should NOT have to use markerlights as a crutch to be able to shoot well.

He's a link to another thread with nice fresh info from someone with the codex http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/518515.page

That said, i'm really looking forward to all the new stuff, can't wait to make a new list and convert some more suits. Pathfinders are now 11 points each with no devilfish tax, making them more point efficient for markerlights than tetras; considering that tetras are now only BS3 too (although tetras are still more survivable and moblie making them a strong contender).

FW are 9 (or so i've been able to glean from rumours) points each with a whole lot more synergy with the new HQs.

Ethereals are a vast improvement on what they were, giving buffs to all units within 12" (all apart from the giving pulse weapons an extra shot, which is single target)

Fireblade is a nice cheap FW HQ at i think around about 60 points, that can give the the FW squad he's in an extra shot if the unit remains still. Combine that with the Ethereal and you have a FW squad with FOUR shots each in rapid fire range!

Darksider has some interesting rules on him. He and the pathfinder/FW squad he's with can consolidate after overwatch. Don't know much else about him though.

Crisis suits are still proudly our best, with all new and great support systems and new weapon costs. You can make a suit with no weapons, but makes the rest of the squad he's in TL and ignore cover (only in our shooting phase, for both as they are two different supports), while picking out an enemy unit within 12" in their shooting phase making their weapons get hot. Put him as one of Farsight's bodyguards and you don't need any markerlights for that squad at all. I also believe that suits can take up to two drones without using up a support system. So if you do take drones, give one guy in the squad a drone controller and ALL gun/marker/sniper drones in the squad use his BS! Sure i admit that this unit would be almost 1000 points if fully tooled out, but hey you could do that anyway with farsight, just this time it's way more deadly.

There's plenty more great stuff i'm sure, i just feel it's no use dwelling on all the bad stuff. i look forward to it, buffs, nerfs, the whole lot. Tau finally got the update they needed.

EDIT: Let me just emphasise, that i'm not trying to get in an argurment or belittle anybodies opinions. I'm just tired of seeing people focus on the doom and gloom. Is there bad and stupid stuff in this codex? I'm sure there will, but then again i'm sure there's brilliant things in there to compensate and make it shine.

 Peregrine wrote:

And this is why you don't realize how bad these changes are. Instead of a proper upgrade to 6th edition we get Codex:Markerlights.

This was exactly what I was going to say. New Tau book is Codex: Markerlights. The army is nearly unplayable without them. Which I guess was the point: force people to take them.

If you like Fire Warriors, Battlesuits, Drones and think Markerlights should be core mechanic of the army, then you will love the new Codex. However, if you're like me, love Tau vehicles and their special abilities, then you're totally screwed. They have been throughly gutted.

I'm sticking with the old Codex, thank you.

Overall I'm happy about the changes, it doesn't look too bad.

But did anyone else notice that this book seems tailored to be sub-par against marines and shred everything else? I mean, there is way more S5 spamming. WAY more S7 spamming. And everything seems to have AP4. Rail-rifles (tailored marine killers) are now replaced with sniper rifles. Kroot have less attacks but get AP5...

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Overall I'm happy about the changes, it doesn't look too bad.

But did anyone else notice that this book seems tailored to be sub-par against marines and shred everything else? I mean, there is way more S5 spamming. WAY more S7 spamming. And everything seems to have AP4. Rail-rifles (tailored marine killers) are now replaced with sniper rifles. Kroot have less attacks but get AP5...

Nope. You still have access to tons of plasma and fusion, which are AP2 and 1 respectively.
The sniper rifles are rending, and I think you still get the normal rail rifles; its just that sniper drones get a different weapon this time.

Marines hate hi strength weapons too you know. It doesn't matter what your save is; if you get wounded enough times, you will fail a save.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Overall I'm happy about the changes, it doesn't look too bad.

But did anyone else notice that this book seems tailored to be sub-par against marines and shred everything else? I mean, there is way more S5 spamming. WAY more S7 spamming. And everything seems to have AP4. Rail-rifles (tailored marine killers) are now replaced with sniper rifles. Kroot have less attacks but get AP5...

Nope. You still have access to tons of plasma and fusion, which are AP2 and 1 respectively.
The sniper rifles are rending, and I think you still get the normal rail rifles; its just that sniper drones get a different weapon this time.

Marines hate hi strength weapons too you know. It doesn't matter what your save is; if you get wounded enough times, you will fail a save.

Not to mention the fact that torrent of fire kills Marines as well; you don't have to have AP3 to kill them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Overall I'm happy about the changes, it doesn't look too bad.

But did anyone else notice that this book seems tailored to be sub-par against marines and shred everything else? I mean, there is way more S5 spamming. WAY more S7 spamming. And everything seems to have AP4. Rail-rifles (tailored marine killers) are now replaced with sniper rifles. Kroot have less attacks but get AP5...

Nope. You still have access to tons of plasma and fusion, which are AP2 and 1 respectively.
The sniper rifles are rending, and I think you still get the normal rail rifles; its just that sniper drones get a different weapon this time.

Marines hate hi strength weapons too you know. It doesn't matter what your save is; if you get wounded enough times, you will fail a save.

Not to mention the fact that torrent of fire kills Marines as well; you don't have to have AP3 to kill them.

That too. Shoot a termy enough times with a lasgun, and it will die.

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Overall I'm happy about the changes, it doesn't look too bad.

But did anyone else notice that this book seems tailored to be sub-par against marines and shred everything else? I mean, there is way more S5 spamming. WAY more S7 spamming. And everything seems to have AP4. Rail-rifles (tailored marine killers) are now replaced with sniper rifles. Kroot have less attacks but get AP5...

i'll wait for the codex. s5's kill marines. especially with 3-4 shots per fire warrior, backed up with markerlights.

"sniper" drones were always terrible to begin with. making them sniper drones now makes them do what they were originally intended to do - be sniper weapons.

as for kroot. fine. less attacks with lower strength. but they're cheaper and get sniper rifles now. *shrug* at the end of the day, you'll just have to play them differently. fine, they were "decent" in melee in the old dexes. and by decent, i mean they could pull down a few doods before they were turned into paste. but lets be honest. melee was never their thing. 2-3 ws4 s4 attacks could be nice, but against that was i3, complete lack of an armour save and extremely low ld. No, better than trying to make them do something less poorly, GW have given us options to run them as a better light infantry skirmisher force. 6pts for a bucketload of s4 shots - its still gonna hurt. kroot flankers still have a role. Now with sniper rifles - few shots, but wounding on 4s regarding, backed up with more accuracy. i see potential here.

fire warriors intrigue me. they were something never worth taking before. Now, we have a whole new and viable style of play.

crisis suits? what needs to be said. they're good. as before.

broadsides. less railgun, and more rail rifle. again, like the kroot, you're just gonna have to think about different applications to get the most out of them. I'm not writing them off.

OK, now can someone answer me this. In the old days, our access to proper heavy killing was broadsides and hammerheads. We still have the hammerhead (but is what i'm hearing true about them now being bs3 with no targetting array upgrade?) but im curious - are there other options spread throughout the slots for taking on armour at a decent (say, 36" range) or are we limited to missile pods?

Deadnight wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Overall I'm happy about the changes, it doesn't look too bad.

But did anyone else notice that this book seems tailored to be sub-par against marines and shred everything else? I mean, there is way more S5 spamming. WAY more S7 spamming. And everything seems to have AP4. Rail-rifles (tailored marine killers) are now replaced with sniper rifles. Kroot have less attacks but get AP5...

We still have the hammerhead (but is what i'm hearing true about them now being bs3 with no targetting array upgrade?)

Don't worry, I think the hammerhead is still BS4. I remember seeing its stat in the leaked codex pages, and I'm pretty sure it was a 4.

Deadnight wrote:

OK, now can someone answer me this. In the old days, our access to proper heavy killing was broadsides and hammerheads. We still have the hammerhead (but is what i'm hearing true about them now being bs3 with no targetting array upgrade?) but im curious - are there other options spread throughout the slots for taking on armour at a decent (say, 36" range) or are we limited to missile pods?

Other than the overcharged ion weapons, the Tau has three S8 weapons: the heavy rail rifle (only available on Broadsides, competing with the much better high-yield missile pods), the fusion blaster (short ranged) and the Seeker missiles (yeah...). They also have 1 S9 weapon (the nova charged ion acceleration, only available for the Riptide) and 1 S10 weapon (the good old railgun, only available for the Hammerhead). The number of armourbane/lance weapons is 0.

So go fig .

 AtoMaki wrote:

Deadnight wrote:

OK, now can someone answer me this. In the old days, our access to proper heavy killing was broadsides and hammerheads. We still have the hammerhead (but is what i'm hearing true about them now being bs3 with no targetting array upgrade?) but im curious - are there other options spread throughout the slots for taking on armour at a decent (say, 36" range) or are we limited to missile pods?

Other than the overcharged ion weapons, the Tau has three S8 weapons: the heavy rail rifle (only available on Broadsides, competing with the much better high-yield missile pods), the fusion blaster (short ranged) and the Seeker missiles (yeah...). They also have 1 S9 weapon (the nova charged ion acceleration, only available for the Riptide) and 1 S10 weapon (the good old railgun, only available for the Hammerhead). The number of armourbane/lance weapons is 0.

So go fig .

Fusion is armorbane, and so is the dawn blade I think.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Fusion is armorbane, and so is the dawn blade I think.

Fusion is only melta. And the dawn blade... okay, I'll give this to you, but yeah, it isn't a big thing (weeeeheeee, we have a melee weapon with armourbane in a super-duper shooty focused army).

 AtoMaki wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Fusion is armorbane, and so is the dawn blade I think.

Fusion is only melta. And the dawn blade... okay, I'll give this to you, but yeah, it isn't a big thing (weeeeheeee, we have a melee weapon with armourbane in a super-duper shooty focused army).

Isn't melta armorbane?

Edit: had a look. Melta = armorbane in ranged combat.

So a bit more than 0

No lances though. I guess they wanted to keep lance as an eldar thing.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Isn't melta armorbane?

Nononono. Armourbane gives 2D6 armour penetration for the full range of the weapon. Melta only gives 2D6 at half range or below. So the fusion blaster will only roll 8+2D6 for armour penetration if the vehicle is within 9".

 AtoMaki wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Isn't melta armorbane?

Nononono. Armourbane gives 2D6 armour penetration for the full range of the weapon. Melta only gives 2D6 at half range or below. So the fusion blaster will only roll 8+2D6 for armour penetration if the vehicle is within 9".

Oh I see. I thought Armorbane was melee only. I didn't see the second paragraph until now

Well, that and I don't see that many ranged weapons with armorbane either.

Deadnight wrote:

as for kroot. fine. less attacks with lower strength. but they're cheaper and get sniper rifles now. *shrug* at the end of the day, you'll just have to play them differently. fine, they were "decent" in melee in the old dexes. and by decent, i mean they could pull down a few doods before they were turned into paste. but lets be honest. melee was never their thing. 2-3 ws4 s4 attacks could be nice, but against that was i3, complete lack of an armour save and extremely low ld. No, better than trying to make them do something less poorly, GW have given us options to run them as a better light infantry skirmisher force. 6pts for a bucketload of s4 shots - its still gonna hurt. kroot flankers still have a role. Now with sniper rifles - few shots, but wounding on 4s regarding, backed up with more accuracy. i see potential here.

OK, now can someone answer me this. In the old days, our access to proper heavy killing was broadsides and hammerheads. We still have the hammerhead (but is what i'm hearing true about them now being bs3 with no targetting array upgrade?) but im curious - are there other options spread throughout the slots for taking on armour at a decent (say, 36" range) or are we limited to missile pods?

Kroot melee abilities were always secondary, but they were sometimes important, for example in attacking vehicles, or acting as counter-charge units attacking already weakened enemy assault units, or munching up weak back-line objective holding enemy troops.

Thanks to their melee nerf (which totally flies in the face of estabilished fluff) they are no longer useful in any of those roles. They are only cheap cannon fodder snipers now. They can't even hurt vehicles now - even Fire Warriors can!

As for killing Marines, that was never problem for Tau. Marines die to Plasma and torrent fire, both which Tau always could do. Problem was FNP units, like Nobs, Plague Marines, Death Company etc. Now, there are multiple ways to deal with them, since the army actually contains high-strength, low AP blasts, which it didn't previously (I actually bought Forgeworld Fusionhead turret to address this problem).

Anti-tank thing is bit weird. I guess they were worried about large amount of S10 AP1 fire upsetting the meta (admittably, a valid concern). However, Tau have now no long-range anti-tank fire over S8, other than Hammerhead. And you get max. three, and that eats up your precious HS slots. I'm not sure how this issue is going to be addressed. Well, Riptide has Rending when it uses Nova reactor...?

Max 6 actually. You can have 2 FOC now.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Max 6 actually. You can have 2 FOC now.

Sure, but then the enemy can field 12 Land Raiders...

Backfire wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Max 6 actually. You can have 2 FOC now.

Sure, but then the enemy can field 12 Land Raiders...

Haha, yeah, that's true. Wouldn't 12 LR be close to about 3000 points though (I'm assuming most of them are dedicated transports)? I'm sure you can pack plenty of fusion and railheads in 3000 points.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
S8 Vs A13 means you only pen on a 6 and it is useless against A14 because for that price and a Heavy Support slot it shouldn't be forced to "glance it to death" unless it gets a crazy amount of shots. Look at the Forgefiend for example, which will 8 shots total for about 4 hits compared to BS3 Broadsides with twinlinked railguns for at most 3 hits. The Forgefiend would be the more reliable choice to me since it also gets to reroll to pen rolls and is comparable in price. It's also in an army with a versatile Obliterator and Triple Twin-Linked Lascannon Predator.
However suits can now take 18" Melta guns, so armor might not be an issue anyways.

AP1 is a lot different than AP4. The range is also greater.

 Exergy wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
S8 Vs A13 means you only pen on a 6 and it is useless against A14 because for that price and a Heavy Support slot it shouldn't be forced to "glance it to death" unless it gets a crazy amount of shots. Look at the Forgefiend for example, which will 8 shots total for about 4 hits compared to BS3 Broadsides with twinlinked railguns for at most 3 hits. The Forgefiend would be the more reliable choice to me since it also gets to reroll to pen rolls and is comparable in price. It's also in an army with a versatile Obliterator and Triple Twin-Linked Lascannon Predator.
However suits can now take 18" Melta guns, so armor might not be an issue anyways.

AP1 is a lot different than AP4. The range is also greater.

Unfortunately, AP1 means nothing in Glancing hits nowadays. What was great in Railgun in 5th ed was that even glancing hit had decent chance of stopping that Land Raider or Battle wagon, or could even destroy it.

Funniest thing was when Weapon Destroyed hit from a glance immobilized my buddy's Battlewagon. See, he thought he was going to be smart and save points by not buying any "useless" armament to his BW.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No they droppd the Broadside down to make you buy Hammerheads.

so 1 hammerhead for $60 or 3 new broadsides for $150..... Yeah they did that to make you buy hammerheads.....................

\\

Yup.

Most competitive Tau players know btter than to invest in a Hammerhead and Broadsides were the order of the day. Now you hve good reasons to take a Hammerhead. I probably still wont for FOC slot blockage considerations, but that's what happened before. Anyone will tell you that the Broadsides were the way to go until 6E. Obviously the FAQ made Hammerheads more interesting and now the Codex has. But it made no sense to reduce Broadsides to STR 8 after being STR 10 for time immemorial unless it was to spread the love amongst units... And the love only needed to be spread to make money. and its going to work.

Or for rebalancing... yeah, rebalancing AV14 actually sounds far more reasonable to me.

Also, how is BS3 that huge of a deal that people consider it army-breaking? Markerlights certainly make Tau shooting more reliable and are intended for some obvious synergy, but I'm not convinced that Tau are going to be uber-fail without them.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Also, how is BS3 that huge of a deal that people consider it army-breaking? Markerlights certainly make Tau shooting more reliable and are intended for some obvious synergy, but I'm not convinced that Tau are going to be uber-fail without them.

It's because the old Codices gave us a choice of either building self-sufficient, but less shooty force, or very shooty but Markerlight-dependent force, or some combination thereof. Now, because everything is BS3 and Tau vehicles are nerfed, Markerlights are essentially necessary. For some reason, some people seem to think that this forced "synergy" is an improvement over previous state of affairs.

We are being force-fed Markerlights like we were French goose fattened up for foie gras. That's what irks people (eg. me).

frogy27 wrote:
text removed.
You really do need to make more of an effort with regards to spelling and the like. The patience of the moderation team is finite.

Reds8n

I'm sorry but this is pretty funny

I've ordered the book, I'm loving the look of the new Pathfinders, but not a fan of the rest, so I finally get the chance to get sme FW Suits

Rules wise, I'm just hoping I can make a decent list by taking a lot of Crisis Suits supported by FWs and a couple of tanks, Kroot were great in the last book and that made a lot of armies use them as "bubblewrap" and whilst that is a valid tactic and armies have used Cannon Fodder irl I'm not a big fan of seeing units used that way.

All in all buzzing for the release though.

People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

 Melissia wrote:
People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

Backfire wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Also, how is BS3 that huge of a deal that people consider it army-breaking? Markerlights certainly make Tau shooting more reliable and are intended for some obvious synergy, but I'm not convinced that Tau are going to be uber-fail without them.

It's because the old Codices gave us a choice of either building self-sufficient, but less shooty force, or very shooty but Markerlight-dependent force, or some combination thereof. Now, because everything is BS3 and Tau vehicles are nerfed, Markerlights are essentially necessary. For some reason, some people seem to think that this forced "synergy" is an improvement over previous state of affairs.

We are being force-fed Markerlights like we were French goose fattened up for foie gras. That's what irks people (eg. me).

Exactly. Instead of a proper 6th edition update we have Codex:Markerlights.

Backfire wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

No, they're Tau. They should have BS2 really.

Backfire wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

They aren't Marines or Dark Eldar either

BS 3 is the game's average BS (Marine codex spam notwithstanding). It's fine.

If i recall right weren't they BS 3 last codex too? It's not like they were BS 5 and got dropped to 3

 Melissia wrote:
*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Except Orks and IG are supposed to be hordes of weak units that compensate for their low quality by bringing obscene numbers of inaccurate guns and drowning the enemy in bodies. Fluff-wise they're the barely-trained conscripts given a flashlight and a t-shirt and sent to die, or the rioting soccer fans that care more about making a lot of noise shooting everywhere than actually hitting anything. Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers. But somehow even our elite battlesuit pilots, veterans of years of combat before they even get to be considered for a promotion to that position, are no better than basic guardsmen.

Until they have markerlights, of course, at which point they get to be BS 5 and ignore cover. It's just too bad if you don't want to spend 25% of your points on Pathfinders.

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers.

So, basically like the Imperial guard.

Actually soldiers of the Imperial Guard probably have more training and experience than the Tau do simply as a matter of humans having longer lives.

 Melissia wrote:
No, they're Tau. They should have BS2 really.

Sorry, but that's just insane. Fluff-wise it makes no sense, if you hate the Tau and want them out of the game just admit it instead of trying to suggest absurd things like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers.

So, basically like the Imperial guard.

If the Imperial Guard actually cared about its troops instead of just throwing them into pointless wars of attrition where 90% of the unit is nothing more than meatshields for the "lucky" few who get issued the special/heavy weapons.

And for the record, I'm fine with basic fire warriors being BS 3. But it's just stupid for elite battlesuit pilots and vehicles to be limited to BS 3.

 Peregrine wrote:
If the Imperial Guard actually cared about its troops instead of just throwing them into pointless wars of attrition where 90% of the unit is nothing more than meatshields for the "lucky" few who get issued the special/heavy weapons.

Which they don't, barring a few exceptions which are notable simply for their rarity, E.G. Chenkov.

Tau have inferior biologies for shooting. It's in the lore. Were it not for their superior technology they'd be BS2 standard.

 Melissia wrote:
Which they don't, barring a few exceptions which are notable simply for their rarity, E.G. Chenkov.

Hardly. Chenkov is just the most blatant about it, and one of the few to do stuff like clearing minefields by marching his troops through them. IG in general are still explicitly an attrition army, and the few regiments that aren't (Elysians for example) are deliberate exceptions to the rule.

Tau have inferior biologies for shooting. It's in the lore.

You mean the "lore" that is explicitly in-universe Imperial propaganda?

 Ascalam wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Whole point of Tau is that they're not IG or Orks. Unfortunately, Vetock seems not to have understood this.

They aren't Marines or Dark Eldar either

BS 3 is the game's average BS (Marine codex spam notwithstanding). It's fine.

If i recall right weren't they BS 3 last codex too? It's not like they were BS 5 and got dropped to 3

Yes they were BS3. And they had things like Targeting Arrays, Multi-Trackers, Target Locks and Markerlights to compensate for it. Now, for whatever bizarre reason, Vetock seems to have thought that all of those are unnecessary except for Markerlights, which have been promoted to core mechanic of the army.

But not everyone wanted to play Tau that way. It's like if you completely nerfed Carnifexes from the Tyranid Codex, and made Tervigons as core unit of your army, that's totally preposterous right?

No, wait...

Backfire wrote:

Yes they were BS3. And they had things like Targeting Arrays, Multi-Trackers, Target Locks and Markerlights to compensate for it. Now, for whatever bizarre reason, Vetock seems to have thought that all of those are unnecessary except for Markerlights, which have been promoted to core mechanic of the army.

Except only Targetting Arrays got removed and Multi Trackers are standard with suits now
Im sure we will cope.....

P.S. Target Lock still exists

 Nathemo wrote:
Im sure we will cope.....

Of course we'll cope. In the end I suspect it's going to be a powerful army, but that doesn't make it any less annoying that we're stuck with Codex:Markerlights and just replaced one mono-build codex with a different mono-build codex.

 Peregrine wrote:


Of course we'll cope. In the end I suspect it's going to be a powerful army, but that doesn't make it any less annoying that we're stuck with Codex:Markerlights and just replaced one mono-build codex with a different mono-build codex.

Sure im not a veteran Tau player (started couple of years ago) but barring the change to broadsides rail guns (i forget the new name) nothing much has changed to make it 'codex:markerlight' any more than it previously was (which to me it wasnt)
Probably just personal opinion but meh >.<

 Nathemo wrote:
Sure im not a veteran Tau player (started couple of years ago) but barring the change to broadsides rail guns (i forget the new name) nothing much has changed to make it 'codex:markerlight' any more than it previously was (which to me it wasnt)

Of course things changed.

Removal of targeting arrays = only way you can shoot at better than BS 3 is markerlights (and your shiny new missile drones are BS 2).

Removal of vehicle multitrackers = only way you can move and shoot effectively is markerlights.

The entire new "Tau" codex is based around having a horde of weak units that suddenly become terrifying when you hand them a bunch of markerlight counters. This is good for winning games, but just replaces the previous "broadsides and fireknives" mono-build codex with a different "25% of your point spent on markerlights" mono-build codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

Of course things changed.

Removal of targeting arrays = only way you can shoot at better than BS 3 is markerlights (and your shiny new missile drones are BS 2).

Removal of vehicle multitrackers = only way you can move and shoot effectively is markerlights.

The entire new "Tau" codex is based around having a horde of weak units that suddenly become terrifying when you hand them a bunch of markerlight counters. This is good for winning games, but just replaces the previous "broadsides and fireknives" mono-build codex with a different "25% of your point spent on markerlights" mono-build codex.

You don't have to tell me what Tau are and how they should be played (looking at the new codex thanks to some helpful folks on /tg/ and I may not be the best player but I certainly know the idea and playstyle behind them).

Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights however that idea is stronger in the new codex ,I admit, but to me it doesn't change much in how I personally would play them. Each to their own. If you want to go for more mono-builds then be my guest but there's more potential then just spamming Markerlights to win (which may be difficult....but fun ). Although there will be a fair amount of anti-assault trolling with using them for overwatch.

TBH I don't even know why you replied to me anyways since I was just informing another poster that not everything has completely disappeared (i.e. Multi-trackers and Target-lock) -shrug-



Edit: I know things changed, I didn't deny any existence of change

 Nathemo wrote:
Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights

Except that's not true at all. You could easily build an army where everything but the basic fire warriors had either BS 4 or TL BS 3 weapons (better than BS 4) without using a single markerlight. Markerlights were a nice bonus that you could use to maximize your firepower at a key moment, but not an essential part of the army. Now that's gone entirely and markerlights are mandatory if you want to be anything more than a shooting-only army with BS 2-3.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Nathemo wrote:
Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights

Except that's not true at all. You could easily build an army where everything but the basic fire warriors had either BS 4 or TL BS 3 weapons (better than BS 4) without using a single markerlight. Markerlights were a nice bonus that you could use to maximize your firepower at a key moment, but not an essential part of the army. Now that's gone entirely and markerlights are mandatory if you want to be anything more than a shooting-only army with BS 2-3.

You've got AP2 (Large?) Blasts from Supercharged Ion weapons (not sure which) and more that all will ignore cover if you get TWO markerlight hits on a unit. I don't want to hear you say you got the crap end of the stick.

 Wilytank wrote:
You've got AP2 (Large?) Blasts from Supercharged Ion weapons (not sure which) and more that all will ignore cover if you get TWO markerlight hits on a unit. I don't want to hear you say you got the crap end of the stick.

One blast, on a single 200-250 point unit. That's hardly impressive.

And yes, markerlights make everything awesome. That's exactly the problem, instead of a balanced and diverse codex with lots of interesting options we got Codex:Markerlights.

Nathemo wrote:
Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights


Except that's not true at all. You could easily build an army where everything but the basic fire warriors had either BS 4 or TL BS 3 weapons (better than BS 4) without using a single markerlight. Markerlights were a nice bonus that you could use to maximize your firepower at a key moment, but not an essential part of the army. Now that's gone entirely and markerlights are mandatory if you want to be anything more than a shooting-only army with BS 2-3.

This exactly. Markerlights were effective if poorly implemented in the old addition, but you didn't need them, and the army could function fine without them. This addition looks like they will be mandatory.

Worse yet, it seems like the markerlight implementation has been really poorly thought out. We still have the needless distinction between regular and network markerlights. Markerlights are still heavy. And I am not certain how effectively units that take marker drones will be able to split fire to provide markerlights to other units. As BS based shooting weapons, markerlight performance is also rather inconsistent. Perhaps worst of all, our two massed markerlight carriers, pathfinders and drones squads, are in the fast attack slot. Seeing that Vetock insisted on making makerlights central to the functioning of the Tau army, shouldn't these two options be troops choices, especially pathfinders, who haven't belonged in FA since 4th edition?

Basically, if you want to play the codex as Vetok requires, you are going to do so with little to no fast attack options. As someone who was hoping that Tau fliers would be good enough that I wouldn't need to resort to necron allies for air support, it looks like I may be fielding allied crons anyway, not because our fliers suck (although that point is still quite debatable), but because I can't field the central mechanic of my army if I take Tau fliers. I am sorry, but when the central mechanic of the Tau army works better when I choose to take allies, something is seriously wrong with the army design.

The thing is, absolutely no thought was put into the markerlight rules themselves. They were carried over directly from the old dex, with only minor changes being made to the benefits they granted. If Vetock insisted that all Tau armies revolve around this mechanic, it should have been redesigned from the ground up. Instead, Tau weren't even given so much as a simple and logical force org reorganization to reflect the critical role markerlights now play in the army. It is an incredibly sloppy and poorly designed central mechanic that the Tau are forced to use thanks to other changes(no TA, no vehicle Multitracker), and the new codex is going to suffer from it. At best, the poor implementation of markerlights will limit viable builds (limited use of other FA choices), at worse, it will prevent Tau from being a truly competitive army.

I will reserve final judgement of this dex until I have the actual print version as opposed to a large number of leaked rules and photocopied pages, but it is looking like Vetock really mangled this dex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
You've got AP2 (Large?) Blasts from Supercharged Ion weapons (not sure which) and more that all will ignore cover if you get TWO markerlight hits on a unit. I don't want to hear you say you got the crap end of the stick.

One blast, on a single 200-250 point unit. That's hardly impressive.

Don't want dead marines and 'sploded Land Raiders? Fine. Hold fire and we'll kill you xenos first then.

 Wilytank wrote:
Don't want dead marines and 'sploded Land Raiders? Fine. Hold fire and we'll kill you xenos first then.

Again, 200-250+ points. STR 9 is awful at killing Land Raiders, and a single blast weapon isn't all that scary for 200+ points. I'd much rather have old broadsides back and delete the riptide entirely.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Don't want dead marines and 'sploded Land Raiders? Fine. Hold fire and we'll kill you xenos first then.

Again, 200-250+ points. STR 9 is awful at killing Land Raiders, and a single blast weapon isn't all that scary for 200+ points.

That isn't the only weapon you have.

"Hmmm...What's the most threatening thing on the field right now? Those Long Fangs behind the defense line? *two markerlight hits* *Supercharge Ion cannon, no overheat, direct hit, all models hit, all wound, all dead*

What's next, Mr. Shas'sushi? That Land Raider Crusader transporting those Terminator Wolf Guard? *two markerlight hits* *Hammerhead with Railgun shoots, hits, penetraits, rolls a 4, 'splodes*

Nice job. Fire warriors can shoot them to death now. What else? That Vendetta his IG allies have are coming in next turn? Well, we have like five units with skyfire with some who have interceptor as well. No problem.

For the greater good!"

 Wilytank wrote:
"Hmmm...What's the most threatening thing on the field right now? Those Long Fangs behind the defense line? *two markerlight hits* *Supercharge Ion cannon, no overheat, direct hit, all models hit, all wound, all dead*

I'd love to play this alternate game of yours where you always succeed on your die rolls.

Also, I already said that markerlights are awesome. The problem isn't that markerlights and stripping cover saves is weak, it's that markerlights are mandatory and make Tau a mono-build army.

What's next, Mr. Shas'sushi? That Land Raider Crusader transporting those Terminator Wolf Guard? *two markerlight hits* *Hammerhead with Railgun shoots, hits, penetraits, rolls a 4, 'splodes*

Ok, so we'll just assume that your single shot always rolls a 5+ to penetrate, on top of never rolling a 1 to hit, getting stopped by a cover save, or failing to roll a 4+ to explode it? Because under those assumptions my 70-point infantry squad with a BS 3 lascannon is even better at killing Land Raiders.

That Vendetta his IG allies have are coming in next turn? Well, we have like five units with skyfire with some who have interceptor as well.

Yeah, because we all know that IG are terrible at shooting AA units to death before they matter...

 Nathemo wrote:

You don't have to tell me what Tau are and how they should be played (looking at the new codex thanks to some helpful folks on /tg/ and I may not be the best player but I certainly know the idea and playstyle behind them).

Tau were always suppose to be based around Markerlights however that idea is stronger in the new codex ,I admit, but to me it doesn't change much in how I personally would play them. Each to their own.

Yes. And I started playing Tau because of cool Tau vehicles, and no, they don't have Multitrackers or Target locks anymore. Which means, Tau vehicles are nerfed to uselessness, which means that my Tau army is no longer included amongst the "each" which get their "own". Tau tanks, once famed for their awesomeness, are now amongst the very worst in the game.

The Codex has number of little blurbs which suggest that Vetock had little clue about Tau. A minor example are Seeker missiles: infantry no longer can call them with Markerlights. Rules-wise, this is not a big change because the mechanic was seldom that useful in-game, the way it was implemented. But this is a gigantic breach of Tau fluff, where Seeker missiles play critical role. Whole point of Seeker missile is entire Tau force is networked: infantry can carry Markerlights, paint the target with them, and then request Seeker missile strike. They don't necessarily know where the missile comes from, it doesn't matter. Mantas carry sizable Seeker missile battery for this exact purpose. In fact, Pathfinders are one of the primary Seeker missile users. They sneak up on the enemy, and then ambush it with Seeker missiles shot far from the rear, flank or even air. Advantage of this is that Seeker missiles can arrive from unexpected direction, possibly hitting enemy side or rear armour. Some players actually used them this way, they loaded Piranha with Seeker missiles, flat-outed it to enemy's flank, and let loose with Markerlights.

However, Vetock has written Seeker missiles simply as Tau variant of Hunter-Killer missiles with extra rules if used with Markerlights. But that's just not how they are meant to work.

I think the FWs are essential now - more so than crisis suits perhaps. Overcharged ion weapons are almost as effective as railguns, but I don't think there's as much variety as folks are making out.

Here's my summary of each unit versus the old codex, and a general overview of what's now good and what's not: http://exterminatus.co.uk/2013/04/06/new-tau-unit-summaries-vs-old-codex/

Melissia wrote:People whining about BS3.

*looks at her Ork and IG armies*

Freaking spoiled brats

veterans, and stormtroopers. veterans become veterans merely by being the last lucky few survivors. Does not necessarily mean they're the best. just the luckiest. as to stormtroopers - raised from birth in the schola progenium to fight. Kinda like fire warriors being raised in their battle academies, and being, you know, trained from birth to shoot.

personally, im fine with bs3 fire warriors, but i'd like to see bs4 veterans.

Melissia wrote:
No, they're Tau. They should have BS2 really.

lets see.

(1) trained from birth to fight.
(2) bred for fighting. the shas as an entire caste are physically and mentally designed to fight, and to want to fight. when they're not fighting, they're thinking about it.

bs3 is generally fine. the above 2 points sum up cadians quite well (as well as the shas caste), so if bs3 is fine for them, its fine for my fish. the fact that fire warriors could claim to match cadians is a feather in their caps.

Peregrine wrote:
Except Orks and IG are supposed to be hordes of weak units that compensate for their low quality by bringing obscene numbers of inaccurate guns and drowning the enemy in bodies. Fluff-wise they're the barely-trained conscripts given a flashlight and a t-shirt and sent to die, or the rioting soccer fans that care more about making a lot of noise shooting everywhere than actually hitting anything. Tau, on the other hand, are supposed to be a technologically advanced army where even the basic troops are highly-trained and well-equipped professional soldiers. But somehow even our elite battlesuit pilots, veterans of years of combat before they even get to be considered for a promotion to that position, are no better than basic guardsmen.

Until they have markerlights, of course, at which point they get to be BS 5 and ignore cover. It's just too bad if you don't want to spend 25% of your points on Pathfinders.

and tau are the reasonably well trained, grunts that really are not that special on their own. what lets them fight far above their weight class in the 40kiverse is the fact that they bring superior technology to the field that offsets their (a) lower numbers, (b), arguable biological deficiencies, and (c)improve their accuracy.

all IG are not poorly trained conscripts. cadians are pretty awesome troops.

Melissia wrote:
Actually soldiers of the Imperial Guard probably have more training and experience than the Tau do simply as a matter of humans having longer lives.

i dont think "long lives" is a trait well known in the guard melissia! ignore your imperial propaganda and have a look at the casualty reports that come flooding in from the front. wasnt there a BL book which described the average life expectancy of a guardsman on that particular world as 15minutes?

as a whole, the imperial guard possesses more knowledge, but that is from (a) fighting the emperors foes for ten thousand years, and (b) being such a huge empire. when you bring it down past the sector level, past the subsector level and to the realm of a platoon commander raised in a hive world, on patrol on a world he's never before heard of, fighting enemies he's never faced (and probably only knows about from myths and legends) all that knowledge the imperium holds is quite irrelevant. knowledge is not something passed on to the basic gronts.

Melissia wrote:

Tau have inferior biologies for shooting. It's in the lore. Were it not for their superior technology they'd be BS2 standard.

Not really. tau have slower reaction times against fast moving targets - ie i2. their slower reaction times is balanced against them having a superior eyesight, by being able to see into the IR and UV spectrum.

furthermore, lets point out that as a sub species, the fire caste is specifically bred to fight, and wage war. they're genetically predisposed to be a warrior caste. Not only do the tau possess breeding programmes for this, but the actively support this with synthetic development. ever play metal gear solid? Liquid Snake spoke of soldiers in the gulf war being injected with so called "soldier genes". And zachary's theorem described artificial proteins and amino acids being found in the blood anf tissues of his test subjects. face it - the shas as a caste are being enhanced constantly.

And lets add in the excellent technology the tau equip their soldiers with. it doesnt bring them up to par. it enhances a potent base line.

And as a last point, can we point again to the tau battle academies. the shas are raised from birth to fight. only the stormtroopers of the schola progenium and cadians can claim such a birthright.

bs3 is fine for 40k. the system lacks the depth to really distinguish between a lot of things. bs3 covers a very broad spectrum.

Fluff does not equal rules. Never will. Arguing that you should have better rules due to fluff is barking up the wrong tree. I think BS3 is fine. Most of the time my suits will have a twin linked weapon system anyway.

Codex:Markerlights.

"25% of your point spent on markerlights" mono-build codex.

Exactly. Instead of a proper 6th edition update we have Codex:Markerlights.

Read the book head to toe before you come to a conclusion. There is SO MUCH you can do with this fine codex. Sure we lost some of the cheese some tau players have grown fat off, but true tau players adapt with the new weapons and technology we have been given. As a 8+ year Tau vet, perhaps I can open your eyes to some wise advice?

Commander + Gun Drone Squadron + Drone controller.

All of a sudden, that drone squadron is now firing at BS5 (twin-linked if the drones are kept standard). Want to be more cheesy? Change the drones to marker drones for free. Now you have a squad of BS5 markerlights.. that are relentless.. and have jet-pack moves with better armor.

Riptide + Early Warning Override + ion Accelerator

For it's price, you don't even need to turn on the nova reactor... now you can remove full squads of terminators if they dare try to deep strike on the board.

Farsight + 7 Battlesuit Bodyguard + Wargear of your choice

Need I say more? Put a few target locks around the squads with Twin-Linked Fusion blasters and watch IG tank armies cry.

Ethereal (Using fire invocation) + Cadre Fireblade

All this combined... you fire 4 shots within 15"!! 4x13 shots = 52 shots.. from a single fire warrior squad.
At BS3 on average half will hit (26). Against T4, 66% of that will wound (17). Against T3, even more.

Longstrike

A upgrade that gives BS5 AND tank hunter. Come on now! You have the best long range tank killer in the game with this guy.

Yeah, there are a lot of ways to get by without markerlights in the new codex.

Sure, they are still an awesome force multiplier, but you can use various upgrades to twin-link, ignore cover, just add more shots... that kind of stuff

Really the ONLY thing im super upset about( and by super i mean not really at all) is the fact that targeting arrays are gone(used em on my stealth suits primarily, sometimes on an broadside) and the fact that seeker missiles got fethed over completely fluff and play wise......oh well.....its an impossibility for a perfect codex to come out lol

Lovely Sniper Drones got an upgrade. It's no longer rail rifle that they carry, its the longhsot pulse rifle. This one actually has sniper on it finally.

Seeker missiles seem better now though.
I mean, they are cheaper, ignore cover... It's just possible for a vehicle to fire them itself if it really needs to.

Also, anyone think it would be a good idea for me to start a new thread for discussion now that the codex is actually out? Instead of continuing here where people have to wade through several pages of mostly speculation and rumors.

 Superscope wrote:

Codex:Markerlights.

"25% of your point spent on markerlights" mono-build codex.

Exactly. Instead of a proper 6th edition update we have Codex:Markerlights.

Read the book head to toe before you come to a conclusion. There is SO MUCH you can do with this fine codex. Sure we lost some of the cheese some tau players have grown fat off, but true tau players adapt with the new weapons and technology we have been given. As a 8+ year Tau vet, perhaps I can open your eyes to some wise advice?

Commander + Gun Drone Squadron + Drone controller.

All of a sudden, that drone squadron is now firing at BS5 (twin-linked if the drones are kept standard). Want to be more cheesy? Change the drones to marker drones for free. Now you have a squad of BS5 markerlights.. that are relentless.. and have jet-pack moves with better armor.

Riptide + Early Warning Override + ion Accelerator

For it's price, you don't even need to turn on the nova reactor... now you can remove full squads of terminators if they dare try to deep strike on the board.

Farsight + 7 Battlesuit Bodyguard + Wargear of your choice

Need I say more? Put a few target locks around the squads with Twin-Linked Fusion blasters and watch IG tank armies cry.

Ethereal (Using fire invocation) + Cadre Fireblade

All this combined... you fire 4 shots within 15"!! 4x13 shots = 52 shots.. from a single fire warrior squad.
At BS3 on average half will hit (26). Against T4, 66% of that will wound (17). Against T3, even more.

Longstrike

A upgrade that gives BS5 AND tank hunter. Come on now! You have the best long range tank killer in the game with this guy.

Peregrine just likes to piss in everybody's cereal. I wouldn't pay too much attention to his cries.
On topic, my roomie is looking at getting this codex, and getting back into 40k with it. I'll admit, it's looking pretty good so far.

Got the codex at midnight from my FLGS... along with (at least) 1 pack of everything new + 2 FW boxes. Riptide looks pretty damn cool all modeled up and ready to go... I built a list for him that I'm gonna use today or tomorrow. I'll tell you how it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've put the Ion Acc. and the EWO on him, with two plasma rifles for extra AP 2 goodness. Mostly TEQ armies at the shop, I shall drink up those sweet, armored tears.

 Superscope wrote:

Read the book head to toe before you come to a conclusion. There is SO MUCH you can do with this fine codex. Sure we lost some of the cheese some tau players have grown fat off, but true tau players adapt with the new weapons and technology we have been given. As a 8+ year Tau vet, perhaps I can open your eyes to some wise advice?

Commander + Gun Drone Squadron + Drone controller.

All of a sudden, that drone squadron is now firing at BS5 (twin-linked if the drones are kept standard). Want to be more cheesy? Change the drones to marker drones for free. Now you have a squad of BS5 markerlights.. that are relentless.. and have jet-pack moves with better armor.

Riptide + Early Warning Override + ion Accelerator

For it's price, you don't even need to turn on the nova reactor... now you can remove full squads of terminators if they dare try to deep strike on the board.

Farsight + 7 Battlesuit Bodyguard + Wargear of your choice

Need I say more? Put a few target locks around the squads with Twin-Linked Fusion blasters and watch IG tank armies cry.

Ethereal (Using fire invocation) + Cadre Fireblade

All this combined... you fire 4 shots within 15"!! 4x13 shots = 52 shots.. from a single fire warrior squad.
At BS3 on average half will hit (26). Against T4, 66% of that will wound (17). Against T3, even more.

Longstrike

A upgrade that gives BS5 AND tank hunter. Come on now! You have the best long range tank killer in the game with this guy.

Hey, did you notice there is SO MUCH you can do with this codex...and then your "example list" did not include any vehicles. Because vehicles suck. I started playing Tau because of their cool tanks, now their tanks suck, it's goodbye Tau from me.

But what about Longstrike?? See, Space Marines have exact similar character. His name is Chronus. You may not have heard of him, because nobody ever includes him in the Army lists - because he sucks.

Backfire wrote:

But what about Longstrike?? See, Space Marines have exact similar character. His name is Chronus. You may not have heard of him, because nobody ever includes him in the Army lists - because he sucks.

He upgrades a BS4 tank (that's probably twin-linked) to BS5. That's it. He doesn't add any special rules, unlike Longstrike. If anything, you should compare him to Pask, who people DO take.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Backfire wrote:

But what about Longstrike?? See, Space Marines have exact similar character. His name is Chronus. You may not have heard of him, because nobody ever includes him in the Army lists - because he sucks.

He upgrades a BS4 tank (that's probably twin-linked) to BS5. That's it. He doesn't add any special rules, unlike Longstrike. If anything, you should compare him to Pask, who people DO take.

Chronus ignores stunned/shaken (which was pretty big deal in 5th ed, not so much anymore) and if his tank dies, he can continue fighting without it.

And it's not like Pask is really that popular either. The fact that people grasp on upgrade character to make ONE of our tanks useful, tells volumes about how good they are. Ie. they suck. Nobody who is posting new Tau lists, or pondering their tactics, includes meaningful amount of vehicles in their list.

Tau tanks suck. There is no excuse, no rationalization, no nothing to get around that fact.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Peregrine just likes to piss in everybody's cereal. I wouldn't pay too much attention to his cries.

Or 90% of the "tactics" posted so far are point-wasting nonsense that is less effective than spamming markerlights and BS 5 no-cover guns (that are not pulse rifles).

Hey, did you notice there is SO MUCH you can do with this codex...and then your "example list" did not include any vehicles. Because vehicles suck. I started playing Tau because of their cool tanks, now their tanks suck, it's goodbye Tau from me.

This is actually a fair point. I think our Crisis Suits actually got a lot of love in this codex, and the Riptide looks like it will be terrifying on the tabletop. If you are a fan of Tau primarily because of the battlesuits, I think you will like this codex. But if you are looking for the other elements of the codex to shine, such as the skimmer tanks, the fliers or even the basic troopers, I think you will be sorely disappointed. It is a shame really, the whole of this codex needed love, not just the markerlights and the battlesuits.

Just finished the tau codex (havent played the new rules yet )

they are good better than before and cheaper and the ability for everything to help each other out in over watch makes them good

they will be a very powerful army to play against
and can almost see apoint of includeing everything in the codex so all in all tau players should be very happy indeed but there will be always whiney b*tchs out there

Still feel that tau should have got alot more units than they did but thats just a personal gripe

 Peregrine wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Peregrine just likes to piss in everybody's cereal. I wouldn't pay too much attention to his cries.

Or 90% of the "tactics" posted so far are point-wasting nonsense that is less effective than spamming markerlights and BS 5 no-cover guns (that are not pulse rifles).

Just got the codex myself from my LFGS. I wanted to believe in all of the hype but after reading the codex and doing the number crunching to me it comes down to this.

If you like playing gun lines and behind the ADL then this codex is for you. If you like Tau as Allies then this codex is for you. I think they will make excellent allies in your army. If you like good casual games then this is the codex for you. I've got most of the models needed but the synergy of this codex is rather Meh to me.

I was disappointed with the space pope and how it can be sniped rather easy. The increase in cost in Drones. Pathfinders at +5 SV??? Piranha's are eh now like every 2 pointed hull vehicle. As for the rest of the vehicles? Heh again. I was disappointed with Aun'shi as the fluff was rather weak and so are his defenses. The Aun'shi of old was a effective HQ.

The whole codex looks rather rushed as well in concept design. Not enough new units and I believe its greatest failure in the codex the absence of human auxiliary troops. I Do not understand why GW makes it hard on itself to make easy money with people that would pay lots money for conversion kits to augment their IG models into Tau units. And using the Ally matrix is not the same as being part of the Tau Empire and try to use it as an excuse for this flaw. This is the usual failure in corporate thinking and it shows in its results.

Even with those negative comments, to me the Tau Codex a far better book than the most recent Daemon codex. As far as the talk of the Riptide and Crisis suits? Again I'm not going to be overly Awed by them. I own a 5000 point Tau army since 2003. Maybe for fun I'll take out my Tau gun line army has fun with this codex not caring if it is as competitive as it could have been.

I rated it as a 3 out of 5 Stars. The positives do out weigh its shortcomings and yes I did buy the book. But in my eyes it could have been so much better.

It will be Awesome in many people's eyes until the next codex will come out, which will be out, oh in a couple of months.

Backfire wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Backfire wrote:

But what about Longstrike?? See, Space Marines have exact similar character. His name is Chronus. You may not have heard of him, because nobody ever includes him in the Army lists - because he sucks.

He upgrades a BS4 tank (that's probably twin-linked) to BS5. That's it. He doesn't add any special rules, unlike Longstrike. If anything, you should compare him to Pask, who people DO take.

Chronus ignores stunned/shaken (which was pretty big deal in 5th ed, not so much anymore) and if his tank dies, he can continue fighting without it.

And it's not like Pask is really that popular either. The fact that people grasp on upgrade character to make ONE of our tanks useful, tells volumes about how good they are. Ie. they suck. Nobody who is posting new Tau lists, or pondering their tactics, includes meaningful amount of vehicles in their list.

Tau tanks suck. There is no excuse, no rationalization, no nothing to get around that fact.

I strongly disagree. I think the Hammerhead Gunship is currently the best tank in the game, Longstrike or no Longstrike. It has good armor (bolstered further by Jink and potentially a Disruption Pod), great weapons, and a cheap points cost. What's not to like?

 Kingsley wrote:
I strongly disagree. I think the Hammerhead Gunship is currently the best tank in the game, Longstrike or no Longstrike. It has good armor (bolstered further by Jink and potentially a Disruption Pod), great weapons, and a cheap points cost. What's not to like?

The fact that it's in an army with no other good tanks (other than maybe the Sky Ray, which takes up the same FOC slot), and therefore no target saturation. Put the Hammerhead in the IG codex and it's amazing, but it's mediocre at best in an army where it will be the only vehicle on the table and therefore the target of every anti-vehicle unit in your opponent's army.

Also, the fact that it can't move and shoot effectively anymore is a big drawback. It might be cheap enough to overcome that problem, but when you compare it to the old Hammerhead it's pretty disappointing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I strongly disagree. I think the Hammerhead Gunship is currently the best tank in the game, Longstrike or no Longstrike. It has good armor (bolstered further by Jink and potentially a Disruption Pod), great weapons, and a cheap points cost. What's not to like?

The fact that it's in an army with no other good tanks (other than maybe the Sky Ray, which takes up the same FOC slot), and therefore no target saturation. Put the Hammerhead in the IG codex and it's amazing, but it's mediocre at best in an army where it will be the only vehicle on the table and therefore the target of every anti-vehicle unit in your opponent's army.

"Tank or not tank" isn't the way target saturation works, except when dealing with Haywire weapons. Target saturation is based on specific weapon types. For instance, let's just take the basic Imperial heavy weapons and compare them to the basic Tau units (Fire Warriors, Riptides, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerhead):

Heavy bolters are very good against Fire Warriors, decent against Crisis Suits, bad against Broadsides and Riptides, and useless against Hammerheads.

Assault Cannons are extremely good against Fire Warriors, good against Crisis suits, and marginal against everything else, though they tend to be high-variance thanks to their reliance on Rending against heavier targets.

Autocannons are decent against Fire Warriors, decent against Crisis Suits, bad against Broadsides and Riptides, and bad against Hammerheads except when the Hammerhead is already seriously damaged.

Missile launchers are bad against Fire Warriors if they are spaced out, good against Fire Warriors if they are clumped together, very good against Crisis Suits, bad against Riptides, and marginal against Hammerheads and Broadsides.

Lascannons are bad against Fire Warriors but very good against everything else.


So the actual target saturation picture isn't "you shouldn't take Hammerheads," because there are no Imperial heavy weapons that are good against Hammerheads but not other things you'll already have in your army. The main message from a basic target saturation analysis is that you shouldn't take Crisis Suits, because missile launchers and autocannons are good against them and not very effective against everything else you'll likely be fielding. Now, does that mean Crisis Suits are bad? Think of your answer before checking the spoiler:



All in all, the premise that Hammerheads are bad because they are the only vehicles you're likely to field doesn't seem to match up with the way that target saturation actually works.

 Kingsley wrote:
For instance, let's just take the basic Imperial heavy weapons and compare them to the basic Tau units (Fire Warriors, Riptides, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerhead):

But that's an unrealistic situation. In reality you have to consider other unit types. For example, suicide melta is only worth it against expensive vehicles. And then you have to consider effectiveness: lascannons are overkill against crisis suits (since they cost more than other weapons that kill crisis suits just as well), they only become cost-effective when you have heavy vehicles on the table. Static infantry missile launchers are underwhelming against crisis suits compared to mobile plasma/fast assault units/etc. Plasma is great against all types of battlesuits but near-worthless against a Hammerhead. Anti-infantry weapons can kill everything but riptides effectively but can't even roll dice against Hammerheads. Etc.

So, the end result of this is that an army designed to kill fire warriors and battlesuits will look very different from one designed to kill vehicles, and by taking that single vehicle you're just rewarding your opponent for bringing anti-vehicle units. Yes, it's less of a difference than, say, taking a single Chimera in a foot IG army but it still hurts the Hammerhead's effectiveness.

 Kingsley wrote:

I strongly disagree. I think the Hammerhead Gunship is currently the best tank in the game, Longstrike or no Longstrike. It has good armor (bolstered further by Jink and potentially a Disruption Pod), great weapons, and a cheap points cost. What's not to like?

The fact it can't move & shoot, or split fire? Like it could, oh, IN THE OLD CODEX??

Hey, here's a crazy idea. What if somebody wrote a codex which would make new tactics viable, whilst still kept old staple units playable? No, that's just silly talk. You gotta nerf the old units and playstyles first. Never mind that all the changes fly straight at the face of estabilished fluff. After all, who reads it except old timers nobody cares about? Y'know, those people who kept buying the models and playing the army through dark times? They're not important!

Look at the lists people post at Army lists forum. Not one of them includes signifant amount of Tau tanks. Not one. Because Tau tanks suck.

Backfire wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

I strongly disagree. I think the Hammerhead Gunship is currently the best tank in the game, Longstrike or no Longstrike. It has good armor (bolstered further by Jink and potentially a Disruption Pod), great weapons, and a cheap points cost. What's not to like?

The fact it can't move & shoot, or split fire? Like it could, oh, IN THE OLD CODEX??

Hey, here's a crazy idea. What if somebody wrote a codex which would make new tactics viable, whilst still kept old staple units playable? No, that's just silly talk. You gotta nerf the old units and playstyles first. Never mind that all the changes fly straight at the face of estabilished fluff. After all, who reads it except old timers nobody cares about? Y'know, those people who kept buying the models and playing the army through dark times? They're not important!

Look at the lists people post at Army lists forum. Not one of them includes signifant amount of Tau tanks. Not one. Because Tau tanks suck.

I wish my Imperial Guard tanks could split fire...

The old Tau Codex was written 2 editions ago, you've got to expect that they have to change it quite substantially for the new edition. Not letting Tau tanks move and shoot is odd though... is that an actual rule they gave it, or is it something in the BRB that's causing that?

Backfire wrote:
Look at the lists people post at Army lists forum. Not one of them includes signifant amount of Tau tanks. Not one. Because Tau tanks suck.

This would be a valid counter argument if Dakkas Army List forum wasn't full of completely terrible lists. Not to mention, here's one with two Hammerheads. Here's one with a Hammerhead and a Devilfish. Oh look, two more Hammerheads.

 -Loki- wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Look at the lists people post at Army lists forum. Not one of them includes signifant amount of Tau tanks. Not one. Because Tau tanks suck.

This would be a valid counter argument if Dakkas Army List forum wasn't full of completely terrible lists. Not to mention, here's one with two Hammerheads. Here's one with a Hammerhead and a Devilfish. Oh look, two more Hammerheads.

...so your idea of "Mech" army is an army which contains massive total of TWO tanks for 1850 points?

Heck, even my Deathwing 1500 point footslogger army contains more vehicles than that. Better not tell them they're actually Mech army. They might get all confused about their identity.

Honestly, Tau aren't really a mech army. You could run 3 Hammerheads if you wanted to in the old Codex, and some Devilfishes if you were trying to go all-out, but those weren't exactly gun platforms.

Consider this as well - the book hasn't even been out for 24 hours. Lists cropping up right now mean dick-all. Remember the Necron Scarab Spam lists when showed up in the first month of that Codex's release? We'll have a better picture of a typical Tau list in the coming months. Try out your mechanized Tau and see how they fare.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
The old Tau Codex was written 2 editions ago, you've got to expect that they have to change it quite substantially for the new edition.

I expect changes to things that need to be changed. I do not expect random nerfs and change for the sake of having change. That's incredibly stupid game design, to the point where "buy riptides" is the only plausible motivation. There was absolutely no reason other than model sales to remove BS 4 and multitrackers from Tau tanks.

Not letting Tau tanks move and shoot is odd though... is that an actual rule they gave it, or is it something in the BRB that's causing that?

Tau tanks used to be able to shoot like fast vehicles, so you could shoot on the move better than most armies. Now they're just standard vehicles with minimal ability to move and shoot effectively.


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 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
You could run 3 Hammerheads if you wanted to in the old Codex, and some Devilfishes if you were trying to go all-out, but those weren't exactly gun platforms.

And Piranhas/TX-42s/Tetras, which are now nerfed to BS 3. Sure, you couldn't do full mech at high point levels like IG, but in smaller games mech Tau was a great option.

Try out your mechanized Tau and see how they fare.

What is there to try out? This isn't really a complicated subject here, losing BS 4 and the ability to move and shoot is just a straightforward nerf. There's no possible way that a mech Tau list will be better than one made with the old codex.

Hey, did you notice there is SO MUCH you can do with this codex...and then your "example list" did not include any vehicles. Because vehicles suck. I started playing Tau because of their cool tanks, now their tanks suck, it's goodbye Tau from me.

But what about Longstrike?? See, Space Marines have exact similar character. His name is Chronus. You may not have heard of him, because nobody ever includes him in the Army lists - because he sucks.

Example list? I never posted a 6th edition example list. Vehicles in the tau are cheap as hell for what they do now. They come with secondary weapons free of cost and their upgrades are rather cheap. (5pt sensor spines for example)

I know of Chronus. He's rather costly for what he does. Now Longstrike.... Longstrike is cheap as hell, and makes your tank BS5, tank hunter and the ability for him to overwatch.. with a tank!.

A BS5, tank hunting rail cannon... yea... Longstrike sucks because of that? Anything he touches with that rail cannon is DEAD, unless something saves the target (++ saves, faith to the emperor, etc)

 Superscope wrote:

Example list? I never posted a 6th edition example list. Vehicles in the tau are cheap as hell for what they do.

Sure, it's too bad all they do is suck. I didn't start playing Tau because "oh, their vehicles are so cheap.".

Worst Tau codex ever.

 Superscope wrote:
They come with secondary weapons free of cost

Because those secondary weapons will never be shooting at better than BS 1.

Anything he touches with that rail cannon is DEAD, unless something saves the target (++ saves, faith to the emperor, etc)

Or you just fail to roll a 4+ to explode a vehicle, or fail to penetrate armor (against AV 14 a hit only has about a 50% chance to penetrate). He's a good character, but given how bad Tau vehicles are in general I'm not sure I'd ever have a Hammerhead to upgrade.

"Will the New Tau Codex bring wanted changes, or will the Tau no longer be worth playing? "

LOL! Are we talking tot he Tau fanatics or the GW fanboys?

Anyone thinking of running only devilfishes and skyrays? Use fish of fury tactics with the new and improved suits, and have 2 seeker missiles on each devilfish, hold the skyray in the back and flank with the devilfish.

Another tactic is more farsightish. Move up to within 18 inches of an enemy unit with the devilfish and a squad of suits, unload your Firewarriors, fire, when the enemy moves up next turn, either move back and double tap, or get back in the devilfish if the enemy is too close, with the suits firing and falling back. You run up to the best engagement range with a mobile element, get your kicks, and annoy/frustrate the player with their inability to get at your mobile element while you use the time to set up a less mobile or more vulnerable kill unit. Before he knows it, the first devilfish has moved behind a building where he has to move his helldrake up to get autocannon shots at it, and it then gets a seeker missile in the rear armor. Or maybe he runs his terminators to far up to get at those fire warriors and takes a helios squad to the knee outside the range of his lascannon.

To elaborate on that last paragraph, you need 2 basic types of units, the first kind split into 2 or more groups to maximize flanking options, and the second to work as a way to prevent your first groups from being cut off by deep enemy thrusts and to maximize firepower, especially so that you can hit the enemy in the rear, due to the fact that they will probably be focusing more on your irritating mobile bases.

Ive tried this once, 1000 points of eldar tau with 5 terminators closeby owned by a team mate, we killed 10 terminators(one of which was a sorcerer), a hellfiend? 5 warptalons, about 2 full platoons of cultists, and about 15 marines, as well as the terminators tying up typhus and killing 5 terminators, while being attacked by a helldrake twice. I managed to make it to the other side of the board to the safety of deep struck terminators with my stealth suits and almost my devilfish, I would have gotten the crisis suits too, if I didn't forget to move for one turn!

 Zinderneuf wrote:
"Will the New Tau Codex bring wanted changes, or will the Tau no longer be worth playing? "

LOL! Are we talking tot he Tau fanatics or the GW fanboys?

Give them a month of game time and most of it will probably change.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
For instance, let's just take the basic Imperial heavy weapons and compare them to the basic Tau units (Fire Warriors, Riptides, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerhead):

But that's an unrealistic situation. In reality you have to consider other unit types. For example, suicide melta is only worth it against expensive vehicles.

How so? Dropping a hundred-point pod or DoA squad with two or three meltaguns seems pretty worth it if it kills 2 65+ point Broadside suits, or one 100+ point Commander (hey, Slay the Warlord!), or two 50+ point tooled up Crisis suits (forcing a morale check), etc.

 Peregrine wrote:
And then you have to consider effectiveness: lascannons are overkill against crisis suits (since they cost more than other weapons that kill crisis suits just as well), they only become cost-effective when you have heavy vehicles on the table.

I hear this a lot, but really it typically isn't that much of a factor. The difference between a missile launcher and a lascannon is 5-10 points on top of a carrier unit that costs far more than that. The efficiency difference, while prevalent, isn't enough to make the lascannon not worth it.

To put it another way, if a 90 point squad of 5 Marines and a lascannon fires one shot per turn for six turns, killing two Crisis suits, it has made its points back and then some. And since 90 point Marine squads with single lascannons are typically not "efficiency" units but rather "score an objective" units, this comparison starts to sound pretty good for the lascannons. A 140 point Predator with three lascannons, two of which are twin-linked, will be even nastier against suits-- I would expect 1-2 kills per turn under normal conditions-- and when suits are likely to cost 50+ points per, that starts looking pretty dang efficient! Hence, of course, JSJ.

 Peregrine wrote:
Static infantry missile launchers are underwhelming against crisis suits compared to mobile plasma/fast assault units/etc. Plasma is great against all types of battlesuits but near-worthless against a Hammerhead. Anti-infantry weapons can kill everything but riptides effectively but can't even roll dice against Hammerheads. Etc.

I don't consider plasma all that good against Crisis/Broadside battlesuits, to be honest. Melta seems substantially better thanks to Instant Death, though the plasma is nice to have against a Riptide.

 Peregrine wrote:
So, the end result of this is that an army designed to kill fire warriors and battlesuits will look very different from one designed to kill vehicles, and by taking that single vehicle you're just rewarding your opponent for bringing anti-vehicle units. Yes, it's less of a difference than, say, taking a single Chimera in a foot IG army but it still hurts the Hammerhead's effectiveness.

My point is that plausible anti-vehicles units will have targets anyway. To be honest, if I were focusing purely on target saturation, I'd take three Riptides and three Hammerheads.

Peregrine wrote:I expect changes to things that need to be changed. I do not expect random nerfs and change for the sake of having change. That's incredibly stupid game design, to the point where "buy riptides" is the only plausible motivation. There was absolutely no reason other than model sales to remove BS 4 and multitrackers from Tau tanks.

Except that Tau tanks, Devilfish aside, still have BS4? And vehicle multitrackers were silly and added to the homogeneity of the game. Every Xenos army except Orks had fast skimmers. Having non-fast skimmers is interesting and makes use of more of the design space. Units should be more unique.

Backfire wrote:Hey, here's a crazy idea. What if somebody wrote a codex which would make new tactics viable, whilst still kept old staple units playable? No, that's just silly talk. You gotta nerf the old units and playstyles first. Never mind that all the changes fly straight at the face of estabilished fluff. After all, who reads it except old timers nobody cares about? Y'know, those people who kept buying the models and playing the army through dark times? They're not important!

I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm assembling two Hammerheads as we speak. I think they are substantially more viable under the new rules.

 Kingsley wrote:

Backfire wrote:Hey, here's a crazy idea. What if somebody wrote a codex which would make new tactics viable, whilst still kept old staple units playable? No, that's just silly talk. You gotta nerf the old units and playstyles first. Never mind that all the changes fly straight at the face of estabilished fluff. After all, who reads it except old timers nobody cares about? Y'know, those people who kept buying the models and playing the army through dark times? They're not important!

I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm assembling two Hammerheads as we speak. I think they are substantially more viable under the new rules.

I can't possibly think of ONE thing which has made Hammerhead better in the new book. Not one. Everything is either the same, or worse, in some cases much, much worse. Sure it's cheaper (in basic configuration, not including upgrades) but what good is that since it can't perform in the old role.

I actually planned on buying more Devilfish or Hammerheads on belief that the new Codex would get better. I was looking forward to it, hoping that Mech Tau would once again become a viable tactic. There was no limit for my disappointment when I discovered that not only that aspect of the Tau army got no improvement at all, it was actually nerfed further to the point on unplayability. It's unbelievable. I can't believe that I am actually seriously considering selling off my Tau army - the army which got me to 40k in the first place! Because it's not the army anymore I started to play, or want to play at all.

Backfire wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm assembling two Hammerheads as we speak. I think they are substantially more viable under the new rules.

I can't possibly think of ONE thing which has made Hammerhead better in the new book. Not one. Everything is either the same, or worse, in some cases much, much worse. Sure it's cheaper (in basic configuration, not including upgrades) but what good is that since it can't perform in the old role.

Twin-linked 30" range SMS instead of non-twin linked 24" SMS.

That said, I said "more viable," not better. An old Hammerhead, once you get it on the table, is certainly better than a new Hammerhead-- but in the context of the Codex and the game as a whole the old Hammerhead is less viable thanks to its cost and competition for its role from old Broadside battlesuits. Now Broadsides fill a different role so there is more space for Hammerheads, and the reduced costs make them easier to integrate into a list.

 Kingsley wrote:
Twin-linked 30" range SMS instead of non-twin linked 24" SMS.

Except that's actually a nerf, because non-twin-linked at BS 4 is better than twin-linked at BS 1 (if you move, which you usually will).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kingsley wrote:
How so? Dropping a hundred-point pod or DoA squad with two or three meltaguns seems pretty worth it if it kills 2 65+ point Broadside suits, or one 100+ point Commander (hey, Slay the Warlord!), or two 50+ point tooled up Crisis suits (forcing a morale check), etc.

But those targets tend to have expendable drones to take the shot. Vehicles can die to a single melta hit, while a single melta hit is unlikely to do anything to a crisis suit squad.

I hear this a lot, but really it typically isn't that much of a factor. The difference between a missile launcher and a lascannon is 5-10 points on top of a carrier unit that costs far more than that. The efficiency difference, while prevalent, isn't enough to make the lascannon not worth it.

You're misunderstanding. I'm not saying that lascannons can't kill crisis suits, I'm saying they're less effective than other anti-crisis-suit weapons at killing crisis suits (but better at killing Hammerheads). A list that takes lascannons will improve in effectiveness if some of its crisis suit targets are changed to Hammerheads. Again, not as much as a foot IG list suddenly gaining a Chimera for the LCs to shoot at, but it's still a difference.

I don't consider plasma all that good against Crisis/Broadside battlesuits, to be honest. Melta seems substantially better thanks to Instant Death, though the plasma is nice to have against a Riptide.

Plasma is much better. Both average the same number of wounds against un-wounded battlesuits (instant death vs. two shots), but when you consider one-wound drones and wounded suits plasma gets the advantage, and can still shoot from 12-24".

Except that Tau tanks, Devilfish aside, still have BS4? And vehicle multitrackers were silly and added to the homogeneity of the game. Every Xenos army except Orks had fast skimmers. Having non-fast skimmers is interesting and makes use of more of the design space. Units should be more unique.

Piranhas and (presumably once they get FAQed) Tetras are only BS 3. Going from BS 4 to BS 3 makes melta Piranhas a lot less effective.

And Tau did have something interesting: the shooting of a fast vehicle without the movement. They couldn't do the flat-out "move my whole army to the other side of the table in one turn" stuff like Eldar, but they had the ability to move a moderate distance every turn while shooting at full effectiveness. Now they're just like Necron skimmers.

(And "every army but Orks" isn't true. Necrons don't have fast skimmers either, so the only fast skimmers were Eldar/DE.)

And vehicle multitrackers were silly and added to the homogeneity of the game. Every Xenos army except Orks had fast skimmers. Having non-fast skimmers is interesting and makes use of more of the design space. Units should be more unique.

Actually, necron skimmers also lack the fast rule. So you have the two Eldar factions with fast skimmers, the Tau with can fire as fast but not actually fast skimmers, and the necrons with slow skimmers. That is about as inhomogeneous as it get, at least within the existing rules. The Tau vehicle multitracker was rules design par excellence, distancing the Tau tanks in functionality both from Eldar and Imperial tanks so fielding Tau tanks felt different from fielding their Eldar and Imperial counterparts. Now Tau tanks just behave like Imperial tanks with different weapons. An epic fail in my book.

That said, I said "more viable," not better. An old Hammerhead, once you get it on the table, is certainly better than a new Hammerhead-- but in the context of the Codex and the game as a whole the old Hammerhead is less viable thanks to its cost and competition for its role from old Broadside battlesuits. Now Broadsides fill a different role so there is more space for Hammerheads, and the reduced costs make them easier to integrate into a list.

Again I am going to have to disagree. The old hammerhead was able to keep pace with the Tau Crisis suits and participate in the maneuver warfare that made Tau such an enjoyable and rewarding army to play, while broadsides served more as a solid anchor, defining the direction engagement for the enemy (as your opponent never wanted to show side armor to the old broadsides). The two provided a clear trade-off between maneuverability and firepower. The new hangstrung hammerheads on the other hand will be taken largely because they are the only long range heavy AT option outside of the nova reactor charged Riptide main weapon, and little more than glorified and relatively static artillery pieces. Just another model forced on the Tau player do to Vetock's shoddy rules design.

The old hammerhead worked far better with the rest of the Tau army because it could keep pace with the rest of the army. The new hammerhead is their simply because the codex is laid out to require its presence.

Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
Twin-linked 30" range SMS instead of non-twin linked 24" SMS.

Except that's actually a nerf, because non-twin-linked at BS 4 is better than twin-linked at BS 1 (if you move, which you usually will).

It's situational. Sometimes the smart missiles are superior to the main weapon and will fire at full BS-- sometimes Markerlights will bring their BS up despite Snap Firing. In either case though Smart Missiles are better when you need them.

Peregrine wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
How so? Dropping a hundred-point pod or DoA squad with two or three meltaguns seems pretty worth it if it kills 2 65+ point Broadside suits, or one 100+ point Commander (hey, Slay the Warlord!), or two 50+ point tooled up Crisis suits (forcing a morale check), etc.

But those targets tend to have expendable drones to take the shot. Vehicles can die to a single melta hit, while a single melta hit is unlikely to do anything to a crisis suit squad.

I find that drones are trivial to circumvent with 6th edition wound allocation, especially when dropping in. Your mileage may vary?

Peregrine wrote:

I don't consider plasma all that good against Crisis/Broadside battlesuits, to be honest. Melta seems substantially better thanks to Instant Death, though the plasma is nice to have against a Riptide.

Plasma is much better. Both average the same number of wounds against un-wounded battlesuits (instant death vs. two shots), but when you consider one-wound drones and wounded suits plasma gets the advantage, and can still shoot from 12-24".

But plasma also costs more, is hazardous to the user, is substantially worse against Command suits, etc.

Peregrine wrote:

Except that Tau tanks, Devilfish aside, still have BS4? And vehicle multitrackers were silly and added to the homogeneity of the game. Every Xenos army except Orks had fast skimmers. Having non-fast skimmers is interesting and makes use of more of the design space. Units should be more unique.

Piranhas and (presumably once they get FAQed) Tetras are only BS 3. Going from BS 4 to BS 3 makes melta Piranhas a lot less effective.

And Tau did have something interesting: the shooting of a fast vehicle without the movement. They couldn't do the flat-out "move my whole army to the other side of the table in one turn" stuff like Eldar, but they had the ability to move a moderate distance every turn while shooting at full effectiveness. Now they're just like Necron skimmers.

Piranhas and Tetras aren't tanks. That said, Tau can still do the shooting of a fast vehicle without the movement if you're willing to use Markerlights, which plays better into the combined-arms themes of the Tau anyway.

Peregrine wrote:(And "every army but Orks" isn't true. Necrons don't have fast skimmers either, so the only fast skimmers were Eldar/DE.)

Phanixis wrote:Actually, necron skimmers also lack the fast rule.

The most common Necron ground vehicle in my experience, the Catacomb Command Barge, does have Fast. The Scythes were also fast skimmers prior to 6e.

Phanixis wrote:The Tau vehicle multitracker was rules design par excellence, distancing the Tau tanks in functionality both from Eldar and Imperial tanks so fielding Tau tanks felt different from fielding their Eldar and Imperial counterparts. Now Tau tanks just behave like Imperial tanks with different weapons. An epic fail in my book.

You can use markerlights to do the same thing while emphasizing the combined-arms elements of the Tau, which is even better design-wise IMO.

 Kingsley wrote:
It's situational. Sometimes the smart missiles are superior to the main weapon and will fire at full BS-- sometimes Markerlights will bring their BS up despite Snap Firing. In either case though Smart Missiles are better when you need them.

How is the SMS better than a submunition or overcharged ion cannon shot?

And yes, in theory you can come up with situations where they're better. However as a general rule BS 4 SMS shooting at a separate target from the main gun is much, much better than BS 1 SMS twin-linked and forced to shoot at the same target as your anti-tank gun.

I find that drones are trivial to circumvent with 6th edition wound allocation, especially when dropping in. Your mileage may vary?

If you play against opponents who know that deep strike melta is coming and don't make any attempt to protect their important T4 multiwound models then sure, enjoy your easy wins.

But plasma also costs more, is hazardous to the user, is substantially worse against Command suits, etc.

How is it "much" more? Remember how you just said that LCs are not much more expensive than MLs? Well, plasma vs. melta is a smaller gap in price.

And yes, plasma does have the occasional drawback. But as a general rule it's better than melta for killing battlesuits.

Piranhas and Tetras aren't tanks. That said, Tau can still do the shooting of a fast vehicle without the movement if you're willing to use Markerlights, which plays better into the combined-arms themes of the Tau anyway.

Piranhas and Tetras aren't technically tanks, but they still fit the all-vehicle Tau army theme.

And yes, you can use markerlights to move and shoot. I'm so glad we replaced our powerful and interesting tanks with Codex:Magic Laser Pointers. Not that you'd ever do it, since spending all those markerlight hits to repair the BS loss from snap firing a Hammerhead is usually a complete waste compared to the other things you could do.

The most common Necron ground vehicle in my experience, the Catacomb Command Barge, does have Fast. The Scythes were also fast skimmers prior to 6e.

Really? Command barges are more common than Annihilation Barges and Ghost Arks? You have a pretty weird metagame then.

And sure, Scythes were, but only as a short-term solution to put flyers in the book before 6th edition was released. If you look at the Scythes as flyers instead of skimmers the default Necron skimmer is slow.

Phanixis wrote:You can use markerlights to do the same thing while emphasizing the combined-arms elements of the Tau, which is even better design-wise IMO.

Except that:

1) You have to want to lose the game by wasting your markerlights.

and

2) Codex:Markerlights is stupid design. Markerlights should be a nice bonus that gives you the last bit of synergy at a key moment, not an essential component in enabling basic functions of your units.

 Peregrine wrote:
How is the SMS better than a submunition or overcharged ion cannon shot?

Target is outside Line of Sight or in good cover without Markerlight support? Happens a lot in my experience-- that's why I'll be keeping the SMS on my Broadsides.

 Peregrine wrote:

I find that drones are trivial to circumvent with 6th edition wound allocation, especially when dropping in. Your mileage may vary?

If you play against opponents who know that deep strike melta is coming and don't make any attempt to protect their important T4 multiwound models then sure, enjoy your easy wins.

How many people even take drones on Crisis teams these days? I've killed quite a few teams via morale checks caused by picking off a Drone. Even if they do take Drones, how many angles can they really be protected from? And even if a drone is closest, what happens when I make them roll the basic weapon saves first?

 Peregrine wrote:

But plasma also costs more, is hazardous to the user, is substantially worse against Command suits, etc.

How is it "much" more? Remember how you just said that LCs are not much more expensive than MLs? Well, plasma vs. melta is a smaller gap in price.

I didn't say much more.

 Peregrine wrote:

The most common Necron ground vehicle in my experience, the Catacomb Command Barge, does have Fast. The Scythes were also fast skimmers prior to 6e.

Really? Command barges are more common than Annihilation Barges and Ghost Arks? You have a pretty weird metagame then.

The flyer armies run Command Barges as well, the non-flyer armies typically run both Annihilation and Command Barges. The end result is that Command Barges are the most common ground vehicle. Personally, I don't think they're that good and would go Destroyer Lords instead in that role-- synergizes better with Wraiths-- but a lot of players evidently disagree. I've never played against a Ghost Ark and have only even seen one on another table at a tournament on one occasion.

 Peregrine wrote:
Markerlights should be a nice bonus that gives you the last bit of synergy at a key moment, not an essential component in enabling basic functions of your units.

They, uh, are? Moving 12" and shooting is a nice bit of extra synergy that isn't fundamental to the Hammerhead's role. Similarly, giving a Fire Warrior squad extra BS is a nice trick that doesn't ultimately mean all that much. I suspect a fair number of Tau players will play without Markerlights as all-- configuring an army that doesn't need them is really rather easy.

 Kingsley wrote:
Target is outside Line of Sight or in good cover without Markerlight support? Happens a lot in my experience-- that's why I'll be keeping the SMS on my Broadsides.

How many targets do you really encounter that are 100% out of LOS, within SMS range, and so completely hidden that you can't move around the LOS-blocking terrain and get a shot with the main gun? I suppose it can happen, but it's going to be much rarer than the situations where the previous codex allowed you to shoot the SMS at full BS at a separate target and ignore LOS.

As for things in good cover, I'd rather take my chances with an AP 4 or AP 3 pie plate that wounds on a 2+ than a few pulse shots, especially since markerlights can remove cover entirely if I really need it.

How many people even take drones on Crisis teams these days?

Everyone. Every crisis suit that can have drones in the new codex will have drones. Gun drones are now twice as good, markerlights are essential, and the majority toughness problem is removed entirely with T4 drones.

I've killed quite a few teams via morale checks caused by picking off a Drone. Even if they do take Drones, how many angles can they really be protected from? And even if a drone is closest, what happens when I make them roll the basic weapon saves first?

Sure, but how many crisis suit teams are standing around in the open for a mishap-free deep strike in any direction you want? More realistically you're going to have a limited number of angles to shoot from, with a much greater chance of a wasted shot than if you'd been shooting at a tank.

The flyer armies run Command Barges as well, the non-flyer armies typically run both Annihilation and Command Barges. The end result is that Command Barges are the most common ground vehicle. Personally, I don't think they're that good and would go Destroyer Lords instead in that role-- synergizes better with Wraiths-- but a lot of players evidently disagree. I've never played against a Ghost Ark and have only even seen one on another table at a tournament on one occasion.

Metagame-specific frequency aside, if you look at the units in the codex the majority of Necron skimmers are not fast. The Command Barge is a special exception to the rule, probably because it's a special character transport instead of a gun tank like the others. So for the xenos armies we have:

Tau: shoot as fast skimmers, but can't move like fast skimmers.
Eldar: true fast skimmers.
DE: true fast skimmers.
Necrons: slow skimmers.
Orks: no skimmers at all.
Tyranids: no skimmers at all.

So even if you count Tau in the "fast" group that's only half the xenos armies. But Tau weren't really the same as Eldar, their "fast" vehicles were about constant shooting and movement not maximum flat-out speed across the table. That's a huge difference that made Tau unique, and now they're just generic vehicles.

Moving 12" and shooting is a nice bit of extra synergy that isn't fundamental to the Hammerhead's role.

Of course it's fundamental to the Hammerhead's role. That was the whole point of the Hammerhead, Broadsides had more raw firepower but the Hammerhead could move around freely looking for the perfect angle to shoot at while staying away from anti-tank threats. Now unless you bring tons of magic laser pointers Hammerheads are another boring static unit.

Maybe railheads aren't as good. But the ionhead is pretty solid now.

New tricks, new codex. The heavy slot is a must fill still, just a few bits needed.

Ever read about blocking units? If so, welcome to the Dfish. A little flatting out with a Dpod and watching your foe waste shots. A mech Tau list can work in tournament play, you just have to put more thought and less bitching like a brat into it. I except 40k players to not be such emotional/ mental wussies. Every now and then I get proved wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm ticked about the knee jerk Mdrone over nerf and screwing the kroot was just uncalled for, but this codex has some serious legs. Bombard GW with some professional and thought out emails on what you don't like and we might get a tweak or two. If not, this dog still hunts.

 Lobukia wrote:
Ever read about blocking units? If so, welcome to the Dfish. A little flatting out with a Dpod and watching your foe waste shots.

Too bad it was better before the new codex was released.

A mech Tau list can work in tournament play, you just have to put more thought and less bitching like a brat into it. I except 40k players to not be such emotional/ mental wussies. Every now and then I get proved wrong.

Yeah, it's just "bitching like a brat" if you're annoyed that the army you bought was suddenly nerfed for no apparent reason. Believe it or not some of us enjoyed playing an all-tank Tau army, now our tanks are much less effective and the solution is to buy the shiny new models like everyone else.

1850

150 HQ
Cadre Fireblade
Kitted out Ethereal

465 on Heavies (Dpods and a few points for whatever goodies float your boat)
Railhead Longstrike
Ionhead
Ionhead

355 Fast (few extra points for fun)
Sun Shark Dpod
Razorshark Dpod

780 Troops
9 FW with some bells and whistles in a Dpod Dfish
9 FW with some bells and whistles in a Dpod Dfish
9 FW with some bells and whistles in a Dpod Dfish
12 FW with some bells and whistles

ADL with Quad

...and that's just a skinny vannilla skeleton. Streamline things down and you can put in another flyer, ditch the ADL and the 12 FW squad for another Dfish troop squad... put the Cadre Fireblade and the Ethereal with whatever squad you want, or ditch one to build up more fast attack or add some suicide elites in... take two FW to 6 and another up to 12... add some Pathfinders or build up to 2k and add another Railhead and some Misslesides in, run two fish empty and use one to block everything but the Longhead turret, detach drones and let them pester enemy units into pouring valuable fire into them... etc.

A fully (or almost fully) mechanized Tau list can be pretty mean... if you can clear away the tears and subject yourself to adding a Riptide in or the like, then it can get some serious teeth. This runs strong, and with the incredible range the Hammerheads have and the amount of fish that can screen them, you can chew through an aweful lot of MEQ or GEQ lists. Have supported FW squads popping out here and there and maybe throw some FW units out and you'll do just fine.

None of the 6th ed armies are designed to be played without allies and the Tau are the worst yet.

Yes we got nice new shineys but just getting new stuff or better weapon profiles does not a viable army make.

I expect that once the newness wears of and our opponents start to exploit the glaring flaws of this dex, Tau players will realize that their new army is the Tyranids of 6th ed.

I say this because our army was designed to give Imperium forces neat anti-air tricks as allies, but not as a stand alone army. This is why the Tau were turned into a static xeno guard that has less mobility than the IG.

Before anyone starts berating me, I'd like to point out the biggest drawback of the Tau in competition was that we had no way of rapidly inserting objective claimers onto objectives deep in our opponents territories. AND we still do not have a way of doing this. Look at our options:

No Deepstriking Troops(Unforgivable considering the Tau fluff. This is as bad as a SM army without any power armour.)
No Fast Transports
No Flying Transports

And our transports got effectively slower.

The only thing we have are outflanking kroot that have reduced combat abilities and little to no survivability. Yes, they get sniper rounds that make their guns into 24" range heavy one weapon but they are not designed as objective claimers/holders..

This makes rear objective capturing practically impossible, which in turn means that the Tau start every objective related game at a massive disadvantage.
Basically we have to fight these battles from a defensive stance and hope that our opponent is dumb enough to give us an opening.

I like what Vetcock did with the fluff but his rules sucks more than a dyson.

 Captain Avatar wrote:
The only thing we have are outflanking kroot that have reduced combat abilities and little to no survivability.

And Darkstrider's outflanking fire warrrior unit.

And if we add allies we can do some interesting things. Wraithguard protecting Eldrad (divination and psychic defense) with Shadowsun attached to make them a T6/2++ unit? Scoring terminators/bikes (one of the FW Badab War characters/bike captain) with Shadowsun attached to out-flank them and give a 2++? C:SM squads drop podding in once no-cover-save Riptides have wiped all the "enemy" objectives clear? Vendettas or Night Scythes being overpowered as usual and then dropping squads wherever you want them? Sadly 6th edition is the edition of mandatory allies, but at least we have options.

Plus, Tau have absolutely terrifying objective clearing ability. 2-3 Riptides spamming pie plates that wound on a 2+ with no armor or cover saves will slaughter objective holding units (and if your opponent holds everything back on their 'home' objectives they aren't moving up to engage you), so claiming opposing objectives isn't really going to be that much of a problem. Hold your own securely and wipe out your opponent's scoring units.

 Peregrine wrote:

Plus, Tau have absolutely terrifying objective clearing ability. 2-3 Riptides spamming pie plates that wound on a 2+ with no armor or cover saves will slaughter objective holding units (and if your opponent holds everything back on their 'home' objectives they aren't moving up to engage you), so claiming opposing objectives isn't really going to be that much of a problem. Hold your own securely and wipe out your opponent's scoring units.

That's actually a pretty good point. You don't have to capture the enemy objectives, you just need to make sure he can´t claim them himself. Any list relying on an Aegis is in for some rough riding against Tau.

Kroot are much better now. They were never a good assault unit unless you fought orks, Tau or Necrons and even then, questionable and inconsistent results.

But as a firebase that infiltrates and scores? They are now pretty darn useful to supplement the shooting, at a low cost, the army can do. Taking out characters is a great boon with Tau.

 Captain Avatar wrote:
I expect that once the newness wears of and our opponents start to exploit the glaring flaws of this dex, Tau players will realize that their new army is the Tyranids of 6th ed.

In general, this has been said about every 6th edition codex. Because it does feel like GW is taking a step in the right direction and are balancing the books against each other, instead of what it out there already (like they're doing with 8th edition Fantasy). The books look pretty weak when compared to 5th edition powerhouse books, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books look weak compared to 7th edition powerhouse books. 6th edition books are looking pretty balanced against each other, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books.

Seriously, wait until everyone has their new codex - given the ramped up speed of release they've shown so far, it won't take long. And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

I don't care what anyone says, 27 Sniper Drones and 60 Sniper Kroot all day every day.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Captain Avatar wrote:
The only thing we have are outflanking kroot that have reduced combat abilities and little to no survivability.

And Darkstrider's outflanking fire warrrior unit.

And if we add allies we can do some interesting things.

*Snip*

Plus, Tau have absolutely terrifying objective clearing ability. 2-3 Riptides spamming pie plates that wound on a 2+ with no armor or cover saves will slaughter objective holding units (and if your opponent holds everything back on their 'home' objectives they aren't moving up to engage you), so claiming opposing objectives isn't really going to be that much of a problem. Hold your own securely and wipe out your opponent's scoring units.

A)Reading comp. The point was that the Tau are not a stand alone army as per the new codex. Thank you for proving my point.


B)You are over estimating the Dreadtide and the tau in generals objective clearing ability. 104s will be no better at clearing objectives than the dreadknight. Crisis Plas teams and TH/SS termies will take the 104 out without breaking a sweat

(Shakes head)....Stand and shoot /= mobility. The Tau are supposed to be about mobility, yet the IG has them beat hands down in this area. These issues that were around in 5th ed and 6th ed with the old dex but are worse in the new one. The new 'dex was supposed to break us out of the old gun-line, yet your main defense of this garbage is that we Stand and shoot.

Loki wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:
I expect that once the newness wears of and our opponents start to exploit the glaring flaws of this dex, Tau players will realize that their new army is the Tyranids of 6th ed.

In general, this has been said about every 6th edition codex. Because it does feel like GW is taking a step in the right direction and are balancing the books against each other, instead of what it out there already (like they're doing with 8th edition Fantasy). The books look pretty weak when compared to 5th edition powerhouse books, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books look weak compared to 7th edition powerhouse books. 6th edition books are looking pretty balanced against each other, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books.

Seriously, wait until everyone has their new codex - given the ramped up speed of release they've shown so far, it won't take long. And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

My complaint is not about balancing, it is about GW not making each force viable unto itself. The things I describe as issues could be remedied without disrupting balance.

I also disagree that GW is going the right direction. Both 8th ed fantasy and 6th ed 40k suck balls. Worst rulesets I have ever had the misfortune to waste my time on.


Also, GW has made this promise of balancing everything before. At the end of 4th ed their excuse for the crappy Eldar, DA, Chaos SM and Chaos Deamons was that they were balancing the books. This turned out to be BS, they were just rushing out the last books to keep a commitment to the stockholders about properly supporting their IP. As soon as 5th ed dropped we saw that things went back to power creep for the favored armies. Now it is time for the non-favoured armies and lookie lookie, DA, Chaos SM, Chaos Deamons and Tau are all getting craptacular codices. Not holding my breath for IG and SM to get nerfed. You can believe it, just don't expect me to drink the flavor-aid with you.

And again, my issue is that each army should be a distinctive self sufficient army that can ally, not a half-assed list that "has" to ally in order to survive. This randomhammer where every army is a rag tag merc list just exacerbates the cookie cutter net list issues. It also has lowered the level of gameplay in the 8 states that I play in and most of my fellow veterans are leaving the game because of how much they detest this edition. Maybe I should join them and play Warmachine.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Captain Avatar wrote:
The only thing we have are outflanking kroot that have reduced combat abilities and little to no survivability.

And Darkstrider's outflanking fire warrrior unit.

And if we add allies we can do some interesting things.

*Snip*

Plus, Tau have absolutely terrifying objective clearing ability. 2-3 Riptides spamming pie plates that wound on a 2+ with no armor or cover saves will slaughter objective holding units (and if your opponent holds everything back on their 'home' objectives they aren't moving up to engage you), so claiming opposing objectives isn't really going to be that much of a problem. Hold your own securely and wipe out your opponent's scoring units.

A)Reading comp. The point was that the Tau are not a stand alone army as per the new codex. Thank you for proving my point.


B)You are over estimating the Dreadtide and the tau in generals objective clearing ability. 104s will be no better at clearing objectives than the dreadknight. Crisis Plas teams and TH/SS termies will take the 104 out without breaking a sweat

TH/SS Termies are going to take out a JSJ Monstrous Creature? What? Que? Wut? Also, no bette at clearing objectives than the Dreadknight? Again, what, wut, que? You have a long-range high-strength low-AP blast that can ignore cover. Heavy Incinerators only have AP4 and the Dreadknight has to be close (relatively at least) to the enemy to clear them out.

Armies having weaknesses does not per default mean that they're not stand alone armies, it means they've got weaknesses to play around.

 Captain Avatar wrote:


Also, GW has made this promise of balancing everything before. At the end of 4th ed their excuse for the crappy Eldar, DA, Chaos SM and Chaos Deamons was that they were balancing the books. This turned out to be BS, they were just rushing out the last books to keep a commitment to the stockholders about properly supporting their IP. As soon as 5th ed dropped we saw that things went back to power creep for the favored armies. Now it is time for the non-favoured armies and lookie lookie, DA, Chaos SM, Chaos Deamons and Tau are all getting craptacular codices. Not holding my breath for IG and SM to get nerfed. You can believe it, just don't expect me to drink the flavor-aid with you.

Complaining about how Space Marines are the Devil and how unfair Power Creep is while calling the Eldar Codex crappy in the same sentence just makes me, and probably a lot of others, have difficulty taking you seriously. Because we all know that Eldar skimmerspam sucked during 4th edition, right? But whatever floats your boat, keep bashing Marines and IG (who had a genuinely craptacular 4th edition Codex, but that doesn't fit into your little rant, so you conveniently left that out...).

 Captain Avatar wrote:
My complaint is not about balancing, it is about GW not making each force viable unto itself. The things I describe as issues could be remedied without disrupting balance.

Well your complaint is about balance, because you say you can't build a force without relying on allies. That is an internal balance issue with the codex against the external balance of other codices. My argument was - wait for the rest of the codices. They're releasing them fast enough. The 6th edition codices seem pretty well balanced against each other.

 Captain Avatar wrote:
I also disagree that GW is going the right direction. Both 8th ed fantasy and 6th ed 40k suck balls. Worst rulesets I have ever had the misfortune to waste my time on.

Well you might as well quit because codices aren't going to change the core ruleset. Simply whinging about a codex when your main issue is the core ruleset is the definition of futile. You're just not going to like any codex for 6th edition.

 Captain Avatar wrote:
Also, GW has made this promise of balancing everything before. At the end of 4th ed their excuse for the crappy Eldar, DA, Chaos SM and Chaos Deamons was that they were balancing the books. This turned out to be BS, they were just rushing out the last books to keep a commitment to the stockholders about properly supporting their IP. As soon as 5th ed dropped we saw that things went back to power creep for the favored armies. Now it is time for the non-favoured armies and lookie lookie, DA, Chaos SM, Chaos Deamons and Tau are all getting craptacular codices. Not holding my breath for IG and SM to get nerfed. You can believe it, just don't expect me to drink the flavor-aid with you.

And yet they've managed it with 8th edition fantasy. Whether you like the ruleset, 8th edition narrowed the power curve significantly, and the 8th edition army books, compared to each other and not the remaining powerhouse 7th edition rulesets like Skaven, the power curve is relatively non-existant. This is the direction it looks like they're heading with 40k's codices.

Again, the direction of the codices is a good thing - whether you enjoy the core ruleset is where you should decide if you want to hang around. It looks like you've made up your mind. There's not much point hanging around whinging about something you're just not going to like.

 Captain Avatar wrote:
And again, my issue is that each army should be a distinctive self sufficient army that can ally, not a half-assed list that "has" to ally in order to survive. This randomhammer where every army is a rag tag merc list just exacerbates the cookie cutter net list issues.

And again, my issue is you're only looking at a small selection of 6th edition books. The 6th edition books seems to be decently balanced against each other, and given the speed that they're getting them out, you won't have to wait long to see the overall goal they're aiming for this edition.

 Captain Avatar wrote:
It also has lowered the level of gameplay in the 8 states that I play in and most of my fellow veterans are leaving the game because of how much they detest this edition. Maybe I should join them and play Warmachine.

I'd honestly ask why you haven't left already. You're obviously looking for a level of competitiveness GW is not catering for - which they have repeatedly said they're not doing. Continually expecting the next 40k or Fantasy book to be the edge of competitiveness is just going to infuriate you more, since they're not catering to your preferred style of gameplay.

 Peregrine wrote:

Of course it's fundamental to the Hammerhead's role. That was the whole point of the Hammerhead, Broadsides had more raw firepower but the Hammerhead could move around freely looking for the perfect angle to shoot at while staying away from anti-tank threats. Now unless you bring tons of magic laser pointers Hammerheads are another boring static unit.

Testify, brother. Nowadays, even IG tanks are more mobile than Tau tanks, because at least they have Heavy Vehicle rule! Am I the only one who thinks this is a travesty?

Markerlights have been ever steadily getting more important with each new Tau codex:

-In the first one, they were kind of a neat mechanic, but not really that great.
-in next one, they were pretty good but expensive, but you could build your army around them
-newest one, they are the core mechanic of the army and basically essential
-presumably in next Codex, all other weapons have been dispensed altogether and all you can take is Markerlights.

Backfire wrote:

Testify, brother. Nowadays, even IG tanks are more mobile than Tau tanks, because at least they have Heavy Vehicle rule! Am I the only one who thinks this is a travesty?

But do Tau tanks even need the fire&move capability? Two of them have only 2 weapons (Hammerhead and Devilfish), one has only one (Piranha) and one has 9 (Sky Ray, but out of the 9, 6 are Seeker Missiles and 2 are Markerlights). Do you really want that single TL Burst Cannon/SMS so badly? Other than that, the Tau vehicles are more mobile than the IG tanks, because they are skimmers.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
TH/SS Termies are going to take out a JSJ Monstrous Creature? What? Que? Wut? Also, no bette at clearing objectives than the Dreadknight? Again, what, wut, que? You have a long-range high-strength low-AP blast that can ignore cover. Heavy Incinerators only have AP4 and the Dreadknight has to be close (relatively at least) to the enemy to clear them out.

Armies having weaknesses does not per default mean that they're not stand alone armies, it means they've got weaknesses to play around.

So you are standing back and just blasting with the 104? Units on objectives that are out of sight seem to happen a lot when you play Tau. Many newcomers don't seem to realize that the opponents already know how to minimize the effectiveness of markerlights.
No marker light support and the 104 becomes a mobile basilisk that has a giant target on it. As to TH/SS termies catching a ginormous jump mc? Seen it happen plenty of times against tyranids.
And dread knights are usually dead by end of turn two thanks to my B-sides. Good thing that only Tau can take th....oh wait, allies means that all armies have no weaknesses unless you try to run some of them as standalone armies at which point they fall on their face...lolwut


Tau have enough weaknesses without being gimped by a codex that makes them non-competitice in half of the missions. But, apparently, you feel that it is ok for certain armies to get screwed while others get preferred treatment.
Do you really feel that it is ok to screw over some factions with fatal flaws when they trying to fight as an independent faction while others are not thusly handicapped? Do you really feel that the Tau are not deserving to get a stand alone codex?

You see, I do not think that allies means that it is ok for GW to releasing 2/3rds armies. I feel we should see full armies that have been balanced. By balanced, I mean that any faction should be able to perform as well when on its own as it does with allies.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:
Also, GW has made this promise of balancing everything before. At the end of 4th ed their excuse for the crappy Eldar, DA, Chaos SM and Chaos Deamons was that they were balancing the books. This turned out to be BS, they were just rushing out the last books to keep a commitment to the stockholders about properly supporting their IP. As soon as 5th ed dropped we saw that things went back to power creep for the favored armies. Now it is time for the non-favoured armies and lookie lookie, DA, Chaos SM, Chaos Deamons and Tau are all getting craptacular codices. Not holding my breath for IG and SM to get nerfed. You can believe it, just don't expect me to drink the flavor-aid with you.

Complaining about how Space Marines are the Devil and how unfair Power Creep is while calling the Eldar Codex crappy in the same sentence just makes me, and probably a lot of others, have difficulty taking you seriously. Because we all know that Eldar skimmerspam sucked during 4th edition, right? But whatever floats your boat, keep bashing Marines and IG (who had a genuinely craptacular 4th edition Codex, but that doesn't fit into your little rant, so you conveniently left that out...).

SM the Devil??? Not my words or inference, those are yours. Along with rest of your attempt at painting me in some bad light because I question GWs decision to sell a codex with 2/3's of an army in it, is quite "telling". Apologist much?


And yes, the Eldar codex was a bland rushed piece of crap that removed much of the flavour of the army.

In 4th ed they had a fatal weakness that was easy to exploit, it was the single rear access point(remember the old emergency disembark rules?).
You parked piranha or speeder x on rear door, blast with melta, and even if you didn't kill it you probably penetrated which forced emergency disembark, and when that happened the squad inside auto died because you were parked 1.5" off there back door and the whole unit could not disembark without coming within 1" of your unit.

Mech-dar didn't get decent until 5th ed and even then the army was more about the farseers and warlocks while the defining portion of their army(Aspect warriors) were limied down to two aspect units out of eight were ever used. I will stand by my assertion that the current Eldar codex was the forced turd that cleared the path for the diarrhea that followed. The only late 4th ed book that stood out was the orks and even then, ork players had issues with the one stat-line for all orks scheme that GW used.


But yeah, If you think the Tau are just dandy as is, I dare you to run them for the next year or two with no allied support.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:
Also, GW has made this promise of balancing everything before. At the end of 4th ed their excuse for the crappy Eldar, DA, Chaos SM and Chaos Deamons was that they were balancing the books. This turned out to be BS, they were just rushing out the last books to keep a commitment to the stockholders about properly supporting their IP. As soon as 5th ed dropped we saw that things went back to power creep for the favored armies. Now it is time for the non-favoured armies and lookie lookie, DA, Chaos SM, Chaos Deamons and Tau are all getting craptacular codices. Not holding my breath for IG and SM to get nerfed. You can believe it, just don't expect me to drink the flavor-aid with you.

Complaining about how Space Marines are the Devil and how unfair Power Creep is while calling the Eldar Codex crappy in the same sentence just makes me, and probably a lot of others, have difficulty taking you seriously. Because we all know that Eldar skimmerspam sucked during 4th edition, right? But whatever floats your boat, keep bashing Marines and IG (who had a genuinely craptacular 4th edition Codex, but that doesn't fit into your little rant, so you conveniently left that out...).

SM the Devil??? Not my words or inference, those are yours. Along with rest of your attempt at painting me in some bad light because I question GWs decision to sell a codex with 2/3's of an army in it, is quite "telling". Apologist much?

No, really, you complained about how unfair it is that some armies are favoured and when I point out how silly that is you call me an apologist. I'm not trying to paint you in a bad light because you question GW, I'm trying to paint you in a bad light because you're whining over issues that I don't agree exist at all, and because, the way I see it, your posts are filled with nonsense. You complain about how unfair it is that Space Marines and IG are "favoured" and then ignore the fact that Imperial Guard had a sub-par 4th edition Codex and that Eldar had a really great one. Admittedly we don't agree on the last, but that's where I'm coming from.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

And yes, the Eldar codex was a bland rushed piece of crap that removed much of the flavour of the army.

In 4th ed they had a fatal weakness that was easy to exploit, it was the single rear access point(remember the old emergency disembark rules?).
You parked piranha or speeder x on rear door, blast with melta, and even if you didn't kill it you probably penetrated which forced emergency disembark, and when that happened the squad inside auto died because you were parked 1.5" off there back door and the whole unit could not disembark without coming within 1" of your unit.

Mech-dar didn't get decent until 5th ed and even then the army was more about the farseers and warlocks while the defining portion of their army(Aspect warriors) were limied down to two aspect units out of eight were ever used. I will stand by my assertion that the current Eldar codex was the forced turd that cleared the path for the diarrhea that followed. The only late 4th ed book that stood out was the orks and even then, ork players had issues with the one stat-line for all orks scheme that GW used.

I think you'll find you're in an overwhelming minority in thinking that Skimmerspam wasn't powerful during 4th edition. If your opponents placed themselves in a position where you were able to simply waltz up and block them off before killing them then sure, it might not be much of a problem, but with Eldar's mobility that shouldn't be happening.

From a game mechanics perspective, the emphasis on markerlights does make sense. if the army is essentially gimped without markerlights, it plays different from every other army out there. Right now, Tau are "unique". And having varied mechanics in a game is usually considered good.

But on the other hand you might argue that nerfing units for the sake of emphasising other ones is not brilliant game design.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Testify, brother. Nowadays, even IG tanks are more mobile than Tau tanks, because at least they have Heavy Vehicle rule! Am I the only one who thinks this is a travesty?

But do Tau tanks even need the fire&move capability? Two of them have only 2 weapons (Hammerhead and Devilfish), one has only one (Piranha) and one has 9 (Sky Ray, but out of the 9, 6 are Seeker Missiles and 2 are Markerlights). Do you really want that single TL Burst Cannon/SMS so badly? Other than that, the Tau vehicles are more mobile than the IG tanks, because they are skimmers.

No they're not. Because you can only shoot Snap shots if you move over 6", this means you're mostly limited to 6" movement - and that is usually insufficient to clear terrain pieces. Furthermore, that movement is often really important when trying to get side shots.

And it's not just what's good, it's what's playstyle. Tau are not meant to be sit & shoot army. If I wanted to start playing static gunline army, I would never have began to play Tau in the first place.

Backfire wrote:

No they're not. Because you can only shoot Snap shots if you move over 6", this means you're mostly limited to 6" movement - and that is usually insufficient to clear terrain pieces. Furthermore, that movement is often really important when trying to get side shots.

Take Sensor Spines, so you auto-pass dangerous terrain and thus go into terrain pieces without fear from immobilization. And hey, Space Marines are meant to be a rapid assault force, and they didn't get fast tanks either (except the hipster Blood Angels).

Backfire wrote:

And it's not just what's good, it's what's playstyle. Tau are not meant to be sit & shoot army. If I wanted to start playing static gunline army, I would never have began to play Tau in the first place.

You don't have to play a gunline with Tau if you don't want. You can always suit-up and play the kiting game.

Aren't IG tanks more expensive points wise than Tau tanks?

 AtoMaki wrote:

You don't have to play a gunline with Tau if you don't want. You can always suit-up and play the kiting game.

...and I'm going to do what exactly with my tanks?

Captain Avatar wrote:None of the 6th ed armies are designed to be played without allies and the Tau are the worst yet.

No Deepstriking Troops(Unforgivable considering the Tau fluff. This is as bad as a SM army without any power armour.)
No Fast Transports
No Flying Transports

And our transports got effectively slower.
.

well, there are ways of tweaking allies into something fluffy. i saw one poster complain about the lack of the human auxilia. considering we can take IG as allies, its got that base covered. want assault units. take a mob of orks with a warlord, and krootify them (krootork hybrids -apparently, orks are quite tasty!) it gives both great conversion opportunities and fits the background. Dont complain about the allies chart. frankly, its there to be used, so you might as well use it. i have little time for purists intent on martyrdom when options already exist.

I will also disagree on the case for deepstriking troops. thats never been a thing for tau.

Backfire wrote:
And it's not just what's good, it's what's playstyle. Tau are not meant to be sit & shoot army. If I wanted to start playing static gunline army, I would never have began to play Tau in the first place.

except that back in third edition, tau were a gunline army. that gunline thing? Well, sit and shoot was precisely what they did. the whole "mechtau" thinh only appeared in fourth edition thanks to skimmers moving fast, fish of fury and decoy launchers. dont think the one viable build from two editions prior to this one should define the factions entire playstyle.

tau will sit and shoot, and hold a line. tau mobility is strategic, not tactical. tau can rapidly redeploy their forces on a strategic level with their mass carrying orca transports and their mantas. it means tau can fight with far fewer troops than their opponents, because wherever the other guy pushes, the tau will fluidly redeploy and match them grunt for grunt. on the tactical level however, tau are no faster (nor should they be) than any other faction. they've never been about speed.

Also, bear in mind that there are plenty examples in the fluff (from the codex through to IAV3 etc) which show the tau modus operandi of moving in, making a "kill", moving to a new position, using said position to make the next "kill" and then retreating, or redeploying as necessary. tau are not about running around the place shooting from the hip. they move to a position. hold it. use it to make their strike. and then they redeploy or pull back, depending on circumstances. all of which makes sense on the scale of 40k with a few FW squads sitting squat and shooting. heck, they have a whole strategy called kauyon (the patient hunter) which involves luring the prey forward, and killing them via sitting and shooting.



my call?

GW probably decided to make tau unique by pushing their two aspects that are unique - markerlights and crisis suits. IG already play tank heavy. the fast moving armoured corps is covered already. they probably felt that they had to push tau as something different. maybe its hamfisted, but that is probably the intent. at the end of the day, you (and i) will have to drop the sense of entitlement as to what "our" tau should be. this is a brand new codex. forget what came before. embrace change. the wise adapt. im annoyed with the loss of 2attacks each and s4 for kroot more so than hammerheads. but i'll adapt. markerlights, fire warrior and suit spam, some supporting vehicles with heavy dakka. is this the new way? meh. at least it offers me something new to the 3xhammerheads, 2x shas'els, min fire warriors in a fish and kroot that has been the staple tau list for 3 editions now!

Backfire wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

You don't have to play a gunline with Tau if you don't want. You can always suit-up and play the kiting game.

...and I'm going to do what exactly with my tanks?

The same thing I did with my Tetras: sell them and buy Riptides!

Or just accept that your tanks are no longer super-fast gunships and play accordingly. Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job. And while being a Devilfish is a bad life choice in the new codex, Fish of Fury is still alive (though just barely). It's not like the codex has an overabundance of tanks anyways...

 AtoMaki wrote:
Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job.

Yeah, who cares about mobility. Let's just make Tau into another IG-style gunline.

The simple fact is mobility is what made Tau tanks awesome in the previous codex. If you can't understand why and honestly think that being reduced to a static gun turret is just fine then I don't really know what else to say, you've just missed the point entirely.

Deadnight wrote:
except that back in third edition, tau were a gunline army. that gunline thing? Well, sit and shoot was precisely what they did. the whole "mechtau" thinh only appeared in fourth edition thanks to skimmers moving fast, fish of fury and decoy launchers.

Yeah, because the ideal goal of a new codex is to take an army back to its most boring version. Gunline armies are a bad thing, and pushing Tau back in that direction is an incredibly stupid decision.

dont think the one viable build from two editions prior to this one should define the factions entire playstyle.

Nobody is arguing that mech Tau should define the Tau codex, we just want it to be a viable option. I don't see why it's so hard to understand that having a mono-build codex of battlesuits and magic laser pointers is a bad thing.

tau will sit and shoot, and hold a line.

JSJ, one of the defining mechanics of the Tau army, disagrees with you. That's how Tau are different from a generic IG gunline, they have heavy weapons that can actually move around (and faster than normal infantry) while still shooting.

meh. at least it offers me something new to the 3xhammerheads, 2x shas'els, min fire warriors in a fish and kroot that has been the staple tau list for 3 editions now!

Sorry, I think you're just bad at playing Tau. The "standard" list has been broadside and fireknife spam for years, 3x Hammerheads spent all of 5th edition as a fun alternative for when you didn't care about playing competitively.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job.

Yeah, who cares about mobility. Let's just make Tau into another IG-style gunline.

The simple fact is mobility is what made Tau tanks awesome in the previous codex. If you can't understand why and honestly think that being reduced to a static gun turret is just fine then I don't really know what else to say, you've just missed the point entirely.

I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static. Especially since you can still move that 6", nothing forces you to stay still (Broadsides and Sky Rays are the only exceptions). And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static.

Because some of us enjoyed playing a Tau army that took the minimum crisis suit HQ (or a tank HQ if house rule characters are allowed) and filled the rest of the army with fire warriors in Devilfish, Hammerheads and Piranhas. Now that army is completely crippled: Hammerheads are reduced to static gun turrets while Piranhas are nerfed to BS 3.

And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

I'm so glad my fun and interesting army has been replaced by Codex:Magic Laser Pointers.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Backfire wrote:


...and I'm going to do what exactly with my tanks?

The same thing I did with my Tetras: sell them and buy Riptides!

Or just accept that your tanks are no longer super-fast gunships and play accordingly. Neither the Hammerhead, nor the Sky Ray needs mobility to do their job. And while being a Devilfish is a bad life choice in the new codex, Fish of Fury is still alive (though just barely). It's not like the codex has an overabundance of tanks anyways...

I didn't start Tau to play boring, immobile tanks. When I want that, I can play my Space marines. And true there aren't many tanks, and the plan seems to be that what there is need to be gotten rid of, since certainly not too many people are eager to play them by those rules.

And the worst thing is, even if tanks had been just allowed to keep their old rules (usually a minimum to be expected when there is a Codex change), who would that have hurt? Nobody! Were old Tau tanks overpowered? No. Would it have hurt those people who do not care about playing Tau tanks and only were interested about the suits and infantry? No it would have not.

It was done for absolutely no good reason whatsoever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static. Especially since you can still move that 6", nothing forces you to stay still (Broadsides and Sky Rays are the only exceptions). And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

It's because that 6" was often quite critical getting the tank over terrain pieces, or gaining angle for side shots, or getting secondary armament on range. See, the fundamental idea behind Tau was that they are not that numerous, or not actually even that good by themselves, but they had these clever technical aids and innovative tactics to maximize what they got every turn. For example, the way you played Hammerhead was that you moved nearly every turn, hopefully avoiding getting charged, got a good angle on some tank maybe, and then unloaded secondary armament at nearby enemy infantry. You did not waste shots, you made everything count by careful movement and target selection. It was fun and challenging way to play. Markerlights were part of that, but they were an OPTION. You had other ways of making your force viable.

Now, the Tau look like they are lucky idiots who would be totally screwed but by chance they came up with a Magic laser pointer from which the army is now almost totally dependent from. Even with their best other technology they are limited to average shooting ability, and their "highly advanced" tanks actually contain less impressive technology than those of Imperial armies.

True, the army has lots of options how to kit your vehicles and suits, but there is not much option on the theme of the army. Compare to IG which can do Air cav, foot slogging, fully mechanized infantry, heavy artillery...each of those armies will look totally different on the tabletop. Old Tau codex originally had nearly same variability, though advances in the meta stripped them off later. But the new book starts with just one variety.

There is no way you'll convince me that this is "progress".

 Peregrine wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I just cannot understand why a 6" loss in 3 units' effective movement makes the whole army static.

Because some of us enjoyed playing a Tau army that took the minimum crisis suit HQ (or a tank HQ if house rule characters are allowed) and filled the rest of the army with fire warriors in Devilfish, Hammerheads and Piranhas. Now that army is completely crippled: Hammerheads are reduced to static gun turrets while Piranhas are nerfed to BS 3.

And even if you do, you can still use markerlights to "rebuff" your Snap Shots.

I'm so glad my fun and interesting army has been replaced by Codex:Magic Laser Pointers.

So your specific list took a beating. That sucks. Talk to any daemon players who have had to buy twice as many troop kits just to have enough models to run new lists. Its a new codex. There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you. Yes its frustrating that your old list does not work anymore. Time to get out of the comfort zone and experiment. Unless you are a WAAC or TFG then experimenting with your army and learning new things about an army you have loved for years is part of the enjoyment of this game.

Backfire wrote:

There is no way you'll convince me that this is "progress".

I'm not saying that it is progress. But as keltikhoa said, it isn't the end of the world either. You can regain some mobility with Sensor Spines and Markerlights, but hey, really, you don't need it. We are playing Aegishammer: Gunline Edition anyways...

 keltikhoa wrote:
There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you.

Oh, there is, and I'm sure it's going to be way more powerful (if I have to buy a new army I'm buying the WAAC one). But don't expect me to be happy that my Tau tank collection will never be leaving the display shelf again and I have to spend hundreds of dollars on a completely new army if I want to keep playing Tau. That's just incredibly bad game design.

 keltikhoa wrote:

So your specific list took a beating. That sucks. Talk to any daemon players who have had to buy twice as many troop kits just to have enough models to run new lists. Its a new codex. There is going to be a list you enjoy hidden somewhere in that codex I promise you. Yes its frustrating that your old list does not work anymore. Time to get out of the comfort zone and experiment.

No there is not. If I can't play my tanks anymore, it's over for me.
Imagine if same was done to IG. Would you be telling them "But new Sentinel variants are really awesome!! You'll enjoy playing them instead of your Chimeras and Leman Russes! It's just as fun!"

You can still use devilfish as transports and mobile cover, their guns weren't good last codex anyways, but at least you can put down more fire if you are moving slowly. My hammerhead is going to be decommisioned though, which sucks.

Backfire wrote:

No there is not. If I can't play my tanks anymore, it's over for me.
Imagine if same was done to IG. Would you be telling them "But new Sentinel variants are really awesome!! You'll enjoy playing them instead of your Chimeras and Leman Russes! It's just as fun!"

If its over for you then that is your choice. Sell your collection and move on. There is in fact a forum here on dakka specifically devoted to selling and trading! Perhaps you should make some posts there instead of doom and glooming on these threads. The only possible thing you could be doing by posting that you are quitting on these threads is trying to convince others to quit as well. Misery does love company after all.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Captain Avatar wrote:
I expect that once the newness wears of and our opponents start to exploit the glaring flaws of this dex, Tau players will realize that their new army is the Tyranids of 6th ed.

In general, this has been said about every 6th edition codex. Because it does feel like GW is taking a step in the right direction and are balancing the books against each other, instead of what it out there already (like they're doing with 8th edition Fantasy). The books look pretty weak when compared to 5th edition powerhouse books, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books look weak compared to 7th edition powerhouse books. 6th edition books are looking pretty balanced against each other, just like 8th edition Fantasy army books.

Seriously, wait until everyone has their new codex - given the ramped up speed of release they've shown so far, it won't take long. And yes, this means that your favorite 5th edition books, like Space Wolves and Guard, are looking to get a very severe kick in the balls. Just a heads up.

As someone who plays both of those books, honestly I'm looking forward to those ball-kicks. I want some internal balance and cheaper units. Just keep us at a reasonable level and I'll be happy.